Monetarism is the problem here, not the free market. The way our monetary system is rigged incentivizes profit by any means, and it makes infinite economic growth "necessary". All popular ideologies are based on monetarism, this includes capitalism, communism, socialism and fascism. So don't delude yourself that a communist utopia or something would be a better choice, we tried it in the Soviet Union and it failed, just like monetarist capitalism has failed.
@peakmoment Well, the opposite of the current system. A society where creating sustainable abundance is the incentive, where we give instead of take, where we cooperate not compete. The profit motive is obsolete, people don't create art because they want to profit, art is a gift. Not saying this would be perfect but a step in the right direction. I think the biggest challenge here would be a shift in human conciousness, for people to switch off their "lizard brains".
Social sharing and one humanity, interdependency. The welfare of one equal to the welfare of the whole? That is great if all are equal workers, but not all are equal workers. Welfare equal to ones contributions is the true meaning of being free. If you are working to support another you are a slave!! If you are working for your own need's and desire's, then and only then are you FREE!!! Don't let the soft talker's trick you into socialism or communism.
@johan404 Of course not, but "Social Sharing", who enacts the it? Do you have the right not to share? if you are forced into duty, be it monetary or personal service are you not being forced into servitude, hence slavery? I donate of my own free will many different ways at many different times per year. But, I don't want or need anyone telling me 28% of my income needs to be taken and a portion will be used to support others, this is servitude or slavery. Nice try to mislead others of free will.
@xtaxplayer You're still thinking from a scarcity mindset, and assuming we'd still be using monetarism. What we need is a system that incentivizes sustainable abundance, then sharing would not be a problem because there would be no incentive to hoard. Who hoards air for example? Will you allow me to use 28% of the oxygen in your house?
Right now the assumption is that we have infinite resources, that they can be wasted and that scarcity is good, because it increases profits.
@xtaxplayer I explain that as a free person you have the right to what you need. If I invited you into my home I am sharing my "Oxygen" with you. But do I have the right to force my way into your home go to the dinner table and take 28% of your food? Or do I have the right to break into your home and reside there? These are more exact questions. What gives you the right to tell me what I can or cannot use? How is it that you believe you are better, more powerful than any other human being?
Sorry to see you go, Sonar37. At PeakMoment, I'm trying to present various responses to resource and ecosystems decline as industrial civilization continues its collapse. I don't expect you to agree with all of them, but hopefully there are some good ideas among them.
Any big "ism", any state, can justify genocide: the U.S. is doing it (mostly overseas) in the name of democracy. What I hear from these guys is small, local, self-organized -- the entire opposite of Big Brother.
I find it mind boggling that so many people in the west coast states have skewed vision of reality. Have we forgotten the millions that died almost overnight under Communism? I just don't get it. when will we realize Communism doesn't work the two men on this video obviously have big chips on there shoulders.
having gown up under communism, I hope that it s not going in a circle an sneeking back in again. I thought the peak movment is about just becoming more green. Well you what they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Hi folks ~ our objective is to present other possibilities. I think the big -isms (socialism, Marxism, Fascism, communism, corporatism, industrial capitalism) involve top-down overnment institutions and coercion. The kind of cooperative society these guys suggest is small, local, grassroots -- perhaps like the Mondragon cooperatives of Spain.
Preaching that we must "...work towards a cooperative, collective, communal kind of existence" serves nothing more than this Marxist's ideology where there is no more America, no more freedom, and no more individuality.
I love my Constitutional rights. I enjoy having the ability to no longer work BY CHOICE, to grow-my-own ON MY OWN LAND, and live self-sufficiently.
But I'll be damned if I'm sharing my life of hard work with The Collective wearing Mao-brown.
really interesting stuff, especially keen on the urge to get practical. With so many people and groups painting the future as this nightmare to be afraid of, it is refreshing to hear such a strong message of encouragement.
Systemic change comes about from thousands/millions of people bringing about small changes in their respective fields.
Then these fields start to change one another, and then the next stage up is affected...you can see it all around us now...
Capitalism exists by massively over exploiting natural resources and people. Anybody with an ounce of sense knows that we cannot continue as we are yet to raise these issues is seen as subversive and communistic. There just has to be another way for the World to live which is more equitable and sustainable and we need to move that way fast! Thanks for the film.
Global corporatism and big oil are dying paradigms. The death of the dollar in 2010 will finish them off. The powers that be are desperate to maintain big government control. That's why they are trying to hitch their cart to permaculture and sustainability but it is a total mismatch. This communist Agenda 21 trash talk= the worst episode of Peak Moment ever. No useful info, just propaganda & misinfo. Open source tech and knowledge build the global mind. Freedom to create=core human experience.
It seems more Christian to me to say that no one shall fill their coffers if even a single man is to go without food. Cover the basics before you cover your ass.
You're wrong on this one. The global Prout network has never been inspired by communism. In India, Proutists have been brutally treated by communists. Communism is based on a materialist worldview, Prout by a spiritual-humanist one. From their base up, these are two very, very different political philosophies. As Prout supports markets and incentives, can it then be called capitalism? It is the same superficial reasoning.
We live in a republic (rule by law) sad as it may make the folks wanting to think we live in a democracy Rule by and of the people) the greeks tried it it failed so here in the US when they started this new world they went with the Greek concept of Republic using 3 branches to check and balance power. Since then some would argue we now live in a form of Quazi- Facist/Oligarchy where corporatism is really the rulers of the country that force the ruler(s) to rule in favor of profit for the Corps.
A decentralized economic system does not equal communism! We need to look beyond past conditioning and unconscious reflexes before we can envision a positive future for humanity.
Let's be "for real" about this. The earth has finite resources. The minority race, those who classify themselves as white, have the overwhelming amount of wealth, and rape the other countries and nations of the world for their resources. Let's take Africa for example. Every natural resource known to man comes from Africa, but are African people the richest people in the world? Nope. Europe makes the lion share of wealth through the exploitation of Africa's resources.
Very educational video!Japan's food self sufficiency rate during Edo period(1603~1867) was 100% when Japan took isolationist policy. Now it is below 40%. A challenge for Japan now is how to learn permaculture from our ancestry without losing the current democaracy and human rights given from the West.
And I have a feeling that many seem to equate dictatorship with communism or extreme corporate capitalism with democracy. They are all different things, I guess.
@btigtime2. No, greed is good, for it produces all the things that people demand. Communism and liberalism is a mental disorder for it removes BY FORCE people's fruits to fulfill somebody's political ambitions. Only government has the power to remove people's fruits of labor by force, not the companies. You can always choose not to buy a product but you can't choose not to give 1/2 of your income to the government or you will be thrown in jail.
Anybody can say what needs to change. Try getting the majority of people to make those changes. The law is rigged to make it difficult. The governments don't want a shift. Globalisation is very bad but it is going to happen! There are too many brain-dead suckers in the world. Capitalism is gonna fuck the world, no shit sherlock!
You have a point there. People like in this video (especially the older 2) are the sort of idiots who allowed things to get this bad for future generations. We constantly have to pay the price for yesterdays fuck-ups! Capitalism is going to fuck the world though! It causes poverty and fuels greed on a huge scale. It is foolish, wasteful, and creates a lack of quality of life for the majority. It opposes equality. Only a small percentage of people benefit greatly from it. It's just not right!
Places like Cuba, India, China and many other countries have huge amounts of people in poverty because they are exploited for cheap goods and labour by the rich capitalist countries such as the UK and the USA. Government regulations are made mainly to support big corporations and banks. I am not jealous of rich people, I just don't like the people at the top because they make decisions that screw things up for the majority of the world, keeping us in perpetual debt while they live like kings.
It is funny how many rich people are so proud, they assume people are jealous of their wealth. Truth is, the happiest people in the world have societies with no type of currency. Everyone will have to return to living without money 1 day.
Cuba has a higher "living standard" then the US, this is why the UN change the measurements for "living standard".
Companies has polluted some parts of the world to the extent that you cannot live at these locations, grow food, drink the watter or move the soil. In sweden some parts are so polluted that you commit a crime if you move the soil outside the polluted area.
You also haveto understand the meaning of what capitalism is; it is not the same as a market economy.
no it is not, capitalism doesn't have the same root at market so I am afraid you are wrong. You want to believe that capitalism is a market economy but it is not, capitalism is more like a plutochracy...
I'm sorry but words are what they are and you cannot change this.
I don't think anybody is trying to shove anything down anybody's throat. there are obvious weaknesses with the current system, it's not sustainable, things must change. this is healthy dialogue. I think we are starting to realize that capitalism's "enormous successes" are of mostly no use when ecosystems are being destroyed and our most valuable resources are being depleted at an atrocious rate.
Study your Constitution--the wonderful freedoms it allows for your "pursuit of happiness," including all kinds of misguided pseudoethics that you propose.
When socialists/the Soviet Union succeeded in sports, it was only through ruthless central planning, not your shallow "ethics" of unrealistic cooperation, which never produced anything of real value.
It is amazing how stupid people can be who have grown up in the US--without any understanding of history, the capitalist reasons for our enormous success in every field, including sports, and the socialists' failure everywhere you turn.
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance......." - Adolf Hitler
What they're proposing is a complete decentralization of everything. Hitler (and Stalin) were all about centralization. You can't even begin to compare the two.
It'd be much closer to compare their proposal with the successful Indian tribes of the Americas, which also utilized egalitarian, highly cooperative resource management models. For example, the Iroquois had a land policy based on usage, not ownership, which resulted in elevated productivity over other nations.
Pig is a pig with or without a lipstic. If you take away profit and property rights and tell people what industries to develop, thats marxism. I have no problems with decentralization, but I do have problems with the marxist ideology.
Ravi Logan is strictly against Marxist ideology and central planning. The point is de-centralization, rather than centralization which is the failed marxist concept. PROUT (Progressive utilization theory) is for market economy, economic democracy, de-centralised planning and civil liberties, based on neo-humanism as its value base.
Zync0: oh, yes he is a marxist, the progressive/modern day type--eco marxist. My argument was not against decentralization, but against the marxist ideology of collectivism, anti profits, anti wealth, anti capitalism, that labor should hire capital and workers should be in control--all these are ingredients in the marxist utopian pie. He is like a watermelon-- green on the outside, red on the inside.
You took his quote entirely out of context. He wasn't referring to "let them teach us how to run an economy." He was referring to, "Let them teach us how to cope with economic collapse." And, yes, these peoples are astoundingly good at what they do, especially the Cubans.
Still, their proposal would work only in the narrowest of preconditions. History shows economic proposals predicated on theory or faith, rather than cold, hard measurement of reality, inexorably fails.
"The system is fundamentally unethical, because it allows accumulation of wealth" --pure marxism that was a couse of millions of deaths around the world. My grandparents were sent to Siberia because of this ideology.
I have not heard this much Marxist ideology since I lived in USSR. Check out the Stalins speech and the History of Communism on my channel. We had plenty of collectivism and cooperatives and communal existence in USSR and it sucked big time. Never in my life I want to see anything like that again.
if it werent for corporate capitalism then we wouldnt be able to see this video. Bill Gates created Microsoft and has pushed the computer industry to progress faster than ever thought.
Bill hired tens of thousands of people and gave them jobs. He pushed Intel and AMD to hire tens of thousands of people to forward computers.
Look at all the good Bill Gates has done with his Gates foundation. All thanks to capitalism.
Due to human nature, the majority of humans won't embrace a co-op system until it is better for them. Until they will benefit materially by taking it on.
I have no doubt that they (people) will eventually want to embrace this kind of a system, but I have huge doubt that this transition will take place (in the majority) before it is actually necessary.
This is Russia in the past and we all know what a mess that was!
This is fantasy! People will always reach for more! What we need is to learn to make from better products and materials. There will always be those who do and those who will follow. I for one will not allow some clown with a pie in the sky theory to have a vote in what I do.
I agree that we need to do differently but if I can't realize a return from what I do and pay people well to help me do it then I'm not playing!
You, like every tv watcher, thinks that business caused the problems. What you don't seem to understand is that criminal business caused the problem and for some reason all business got painted with the same brush.
A business that does act properly, keep it work clean, treat it's people well and supports it's community is a good thing.
Great discussion. These gentlemen are on the right track with what seems like a workable model. The only problem is getting people to accept this is a more viable system then what we have now.
I think these guys were great, I was just wondering was this some kind of retreat they were on?
we didn't videotape this at a retreat (although the Northwest Permaculture Gathering 2006 was held there). It is the Dharmalaya Center, which Ravi Logan describes a bit in the conversation.
Monetarism is the problem here, not the free market. The way our monetary system is rigged incentivizes profit by any means, and it makes infinite economic growth "necessary". All popular ideologies are based on monetarism, this includes capitalism, communism, socialism and fascism. So don't delude yourself that a communist utopia or something would be a better choice, we tried it in the Soviet Union and it failed, just like monetarist capitalism has failed.
What we need is something fresh.
johan404 1 year ago
@johan404, I'm right with you on infinite growth. I see it destroying the planet. What would something fresh look like?
peakmoment 1 year ago
@peakmoment Well, the opposite of the current system. A society where creating sustainable abundance is the incentive, where we give instead of take, where we cooperate not compete. The profit motive is obsolete, people don't create art because they want to profit, art is a gift. Not saying this would be perfect but a step in the right direction. I think the biggest challenge here would be a shift in human conciousness, for people to switch off their "lizard brains".
johan404 1 year ago
Social sharing and one humanity, interdependency. The welfare of one equal to the welfare of the whole? That is great if all are equal workers, but not all are equal workers. Welfare equal to ones contributions is the true meaning of being free. If you are working to support another you are a slave!! If you are working for your own need's and desire's, then and only then are you FREE!!! Don't let the soft talker's trick you into socialism or communism.
xtaxplayer 1 year ago
@xtaxplayer What if you work to support another by choice, because you are generous. Are you then a slave?
johan404 1 year ago
@johan404 Of course not, but "Social Sharing", who enacts the it? Do you have the right not to share? if you are forced into duty, be it monetary or personal service are you not being forced into servitude, hence slavery? I donate of my own free will many different ways at many different times per year. But, I don't want or need anyone telling me 28% of my income needs to be taken and a portion will be used to support others, this is servitude or slavery. Nice try to mislead others of free will.
xtaxplayer 1 year ago
@xtaxplayer You're still thinking from a scarcity mindset, and assuming we'd still be using monetarism. What we need is a system that incentivizes sustainable abundance, then sharing would not be a problem because there would be no incentive to hoard. Who hoards air for example? Will you allow me to use 28% of the oxygen in your house?
Right now the assumption is that we have infinite resources, that they can be wasted and that scarcity is good, because it increases profits.
johan404 1 year ago
@xtaxplayer I explain that as a free person you have the right to what you need. If I invited you into my home I am sharing my "Oxygen" with you. But do I have the right to force my way into your home go to the dinner table and take 28% of your food? Or do I have the right to break into your home and reside there? These are more exact questions. What gives you the right to tell me what I can or cannot use? How is it that you believe you are better, more powerful than any other human being?
xtaxplayer 1 year ago
I find this so disturbing that I'm dropping my subscription to this channel.
Sonar37 2 years ago
Sorry to see you go, Sonar37. At PeakMoment, I'm trying to present various responses to resource and ecosystems decline as industrial civilization continues its collapse. I don't expect you to agree with all of them, but hopefully there are some good ideas among them.
Any big "ism", any state, can justify genocide: the U.S. is doing it (mostly overseas) in the name of democracy. What I hear from these guys is small, local, self-organized -- the entire opposite of Big Brother.
peakmoment 2 years ago
I find it mind boggling that so many people in the west coast states have skewed vision of reality. Have we forgotten the millions that died almost overnight under Communism? I just don't get it. when will we realize Communism doesn't work the two men on this video obviously have big chips on there shoulders.
Sonar37 2 years ago
having gown up under communism, I hope that it s not going in a circle an sneeking back in again. I thought the peak movment is about just becoming more green. Well you what they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Thekozlowskis 2 years ago
Hi folks ~ our objective is to present other possibilities. I think the big -isms (socialism, Marxism, Fascism, communism, corporatism, industrial capitalism) involve top-down overnment institutions and coercion. The kind of cooperative society these guys suggest is small, local, grassroots -- perhaps like the Mondragon cooperatives of Spain.
peakmoment 2 years ago
Preaching that we must "...work towards a cooperative, collective, communal kind of existence" serves nothing more than this Marxist's ideology where there is no more America, no more freedom, and no more individuality.
I love my Constitutional rights. I enjoy having the ability to no longer work BY CHOICE, to grow-my-own ON MY OWN LAND, and live self-sufficiently.
But I'll be damned if I'm sharing my life of hard work with The Collective wearing Mao-brown.
LynnQuilter 2 years ago
really interesting stuff, especially keen on the urge to get practical. With so many people and groups painting the future as this nightmare to be afraid of, it is refreshing to hear such a strong message of encouragement.
Systemic change comes about from thousands/millions of people bringing about small changes in their respective fields.
Then these fields start to change one another, and then the next stage up is affected...you can see it all around us now...
shakeyjakey17 2 years ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
Capitalism exists by massively over exploiting natural resources and people. Anybody with an ounce of sense knows that we cannot continue as we are yet to raise these issues is seen as subversive and communistic. There just has to be another way for the World to live which is more equitable and sustainable and we need to move that way fast! Thanks for the film.
groworganicfood 2 years ago
Comment removed
groworganicfood 2 years ago
Global corporatism and big oil are dying paradigms. The death of the dollar in 2010 will finish them off. The powers that be are desperate to maintain big government control. That's why they are trying to hitch their cart to permaculture and sustainability but it is a total mismatch. This communist Agenda 21 trash talk= the worst episode of Peak Moment ever. No useful info, just propaganda & misinfo. Open source tech and knowledge build the global mind. Freedom to create=core human experience.
baubosophia 2 years ago 4
Hey folks how old are you? This is communism. It is a great speech, but it is very marxist. I know I grew up with this..
cityhomesteader 2 years ago
It seems more Christian to me to say that no one shall fill their coffers if even a single man is to go without food. Cover the basics before you cover your ass.
D0g63rt 2 years ago 2
You're wrong on this one. The global Prout network has never been inspired by communism. In India, Proutists have been brutally treated by communists. Communism is based on a materialist worldview, Prout by a spiritual-humanist one. From their base up, these are two very, very different political philosophies. As Prout supports markets and incentives, can it then be called capitalism? It is the same superficial reasoning.
ivarca1 2 years ago 5
Unfortunately, PROUT, the name they have chosen, means "fart" in French.
dvmx 2 years ago
I'm with it, this is what it looks like at my parties, but that level of pantomime in a conversation I have never seen.
FocusedLove 2 years ago
Weather this is fact in every case, there is substantial evidence to prove the corporatism argument, Solution?
Perma-culture.
boycat Commercial Corporatism
Protest all things non healthy for your mother earth or your Bill of rights.
Learn and practice the Constitution and memorize the bill of rights.
Teach law enforcement locally on up the bill of rights so they no longer are collection agents for the Corp(s)e
This is common sense.
Honestly do you trust the Government anymore?
neven01 2 years ago 8
We live in a republic (rule by law) sad as it may make the folks wanting to think we live in a democracy Rule by and of the people) the greeks tried it it failed so here in the US when they started this new world they went with the Greek concept of Republic using 3 branches to check and balance power. Since then some would argue we now live in a form of Quazi- Facist/Oligarchy where corporatism is really the rulers of the country that force the ruler(s) to rule in favor of profit for the Corps.
neven01 2 years ago 4
A decentralized economic system does not equal communism! We need to look beyond past conditioning and unconscious reflexes before we can envision a positive future for humanity.
greentrilium 2 years ago
greentrilium: nobody said it does
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
Let's be "for real" about this. The earth has finite resources. The minority race, those who classify themselves as white, have the overwhelming amount of wealth, and rape the other countries and nations of the world for their resources. Let's take Africa for example. Every natural resource known to man comes from Africa, but are African people the richest people in the world? Nope. Europe makes the lion share of wealth through the exploitation of Africa's resources.
TheNoble7 2 years ago
@TheNoble7 I'm so fuckin confused...what are you talking about?! Was that comment for another video?
ladyceleste001 9 months ago
Very educational video!Japan's food self sufficiency rate during Edo period(1603~1867) was 100% when Japan took isolationist policy. Now it is below 40%. A challenge for Japan now is how to learn permaculture from our ancestry without losing the current democaracy and human rights given from the West.
And I have a feeling that many seem to equate dictatorship with communism or extreme corporate capitalism with democracy. They are all different things, I guess.
Edwardohka 2 years ago
I'm interested in knowing more about what they are doing in practical terms, and less interested in their ideological gobledigook.
Ape65 2 years ago
Great video! Thank-you for putting this stuff out there.
milt0nics 2 years ago
Wealth does not equal happiness unless you are greedy, nor poverity equal misery. Greed is at least a mental illness..
There is nothing more important than the freedom of the individual and Family. Any System built should take care of that... nothing else.
btigtime2 2 years ago
@btigtime2. No, greed is good, for it produces all the things that people demand. Communism and liberalism is a mental disorder for it removes BY FORCE people's fruits to fulfill somebody's political ambitions. Only government has the power to remove people's fruits of labor by force, not the companies. You can always choose not to buy a product but you can't choose not to give 1/2 of your income to the government or you will be thrown in jail.
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
Anybody can say what needs to change. Try getting the majority of people to make those changes. The law is rigged to make it difficult. The governments don't want a shift. Globalisation is very bad but it is going to happen! There are too many brain-dead suckers in the world. Capitalism is gonna fuck the world, no shit sherlock!
fatalist6o9 2 years ago
Comment removed
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
You have a point there. People like in this video (especially the older 2) are the sort of idiots who allowed things to get this bad for future generations. We constantly have to pay the price for yesterdays fuck-ups! Capitalism is going to fuck the world though! It causes poverty and fuels greed on a huge scale. It is foolish, wasteful, and creates a lack of quality of life for the majority. It opposes equality. Only a small percentage of people benefit greatly from it. It's just not right!
fatalist6o9 2 years ago
many ge mislead, i am glad they are attempting.....are you? commitment to nature is the greatest source of energy
estoboy29 2 years ago
Comment removed
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
Places like Cuba, India, China and many other countries have huge amounts of people in poverty because they are exploited for cheap goods and labour by the rich capitalist countries such as the UK and the USA. Government regulations are made mainly to support big corporations and banks. I am not jealous of rich people, I just don't like the people at the top because they make decisions that screw things up for the majority of the world, keeping us in perpetual debt while they live like kings.
fatalist6o9 2 years ago
It is funny how many rich people are so proud, they assume people are jealous of their wealth. Truth is, the happiest people in the world have societies with no type of currency. Everyone will have to return to living without money 1 day.
fatalist6o9 2 years ago
Cuba has a higher "living standard" then the US, this is why the UN change the measurements for "living standard".
Companies has polluted some parts of the world to the extent that you cannot live at these locations, grow food, drink the watter or move the soil. In sweden some parts are so polluted that you commit a crime if you move the soil outside the polluted area.
You also haveto understand the meaning of what capitalism is; it is not the same as a market economy.
snakecharmer133 2 years ago
snakecharmer133: No Cuba does NOT have a higher standard of living: watch?v=mRzL8krclVQ
And capitalism IS market economy.
BlueSkies360 2 years ago 3
no it is not, capitalism doesn't have the same root at market so I am afraid you are wrong. You want to believe that capitalism is a market economy but it is not, capitalism is more like a plutochracy...
I'm sorry but words are what they are and you cannot change this.
snakecharmer133 2 years ago
Just don't shove your one-party system down my throat, or that of any others.
focus21x 2 years ago 3
I don't think anybody is trying to shove anything down anybody's throat. there are obvious weaknesses with the current system, it's not sustainable, things must change. this is healthy dialogue. I think we are starting to realize that capitalism's "enormous successes" are of mostly no use when ecosystems are being destroyed and our most valuable resources are being depleted at an atrocious rate.
pgblues 2 years ago
Comment removed
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
Healthy dialogue has been going on for ever. We need positive action! NOW!
fatalist6o9 2 years ago
Study your Constitution--the wonderful freedoms it allows for your "pursuit of happiness," including all kinds of misguided pseudoethics that you propose.
focus21x 2 years ago
When socialists/the Soviet Union succeeded in sports, it was only through ruthless central planning, not your shallow "ethics" of unrealistic cooperation, which never produced anything of real value.
focus21x 2 years ago
It is amazing how stupid people can be who have grown up in the US--without any understanding of history, the capitalist reasons for our enormous success in every field, including sports, and the socialists' failure everywhere you turn.
focus21x 2 years ago
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance......." - Adolf Hitler
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
Night and day.
What they're proposing is a complete decentralization of everything. Hitler (and Stalin) were all about centralization. You can't even begin to compare the two.
It'd be much closer to compare their proposal with the successful Indian tribes of the Americas, which also utilized egalitarian, highly cooperative resource management models. For example, the Iroquois had a land policy based on usage, not ownership, which resulted in elevated productivity over other nations.
hoser4 2 years ago
Pig is a pig with or without a lipstic. If you take away profit and property rights and tell people what industries to develop, thats marxism. I have no problems with decentralization, but I do have problems with the marxist ideology.
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
@BlueSkies360
Ravi Logan is strictly against Marxist ideology and central planning. The point is de-centralization, rather than centralization which is the failed marxist concept. PROUT (Progressive utilization theory) is for market economy, economic democracy, de-centralised planning and civil liberties, based on neo-humanism as its value base.
Zync0 2 years ago
Zync0: oh, yes he is a marxist, the progressive/modern day type--eco marxist. My argument was not against decentralization, but against the marxist ideology of collectivism, anti profits, anti wealth, anti capitalism, that labor should hire capital and workers should be in control--all these are ingredients in the marxist utopian pie. He is like a watermelon-- green on the outside, red on the inside.
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
I just realized that Ravi is to the right. My comment is geared towards Jason.
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
"Amazing models to look at are in CUBA, India, South America.... Let them be our teachers!"??????????????
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
You took his quote entirely out of context. He wasn't referring to "let them teach us how to run an economy." He was referring to, "Let them teach us how to cope with economic collapse." And, yes, these peoples are astoundingly good at what they do, especially the Cubans.
Still, their proposal would work only in the narrowest of preconditions. History shows economic proposals predicated on theory or faith, rather than cold, hard measurement of reality, inexorably fails.
hoser4 2 years ago
Please move to Cuba. I don't want no Cuban collectivism in America.
BlueSkies360 2 years ago 2
"The system is fundamentally unethical, because it allows accumulation of wealth" --pure marxism that was a couse of millions of deaths around the world. My grandparents were sent to Siberia because of this ideology.
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
Comment removed
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
Chavez agrees with you: profit ignores most everything ; we need to shift away from maximization of profit;
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
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BlueSkies360 2 years ago
I have not heard this much Marxist ideology since I lived in USSR. Check out the Stalins speech and the History of Communism on my channel. We had plenty of collectivism and cooperatives and communal existence in USSR and it sucked big time. Never in my life I want to see anything like that again.
BlueSkies360 2 years ago
if it werent for corporate capitalism then we wouldnt be able to see this video. Bill Gates created Microsoft and has pushed the computer industry to progress faster than ever thought.
Bill hired tens of thousands of people and gave them jobs. He pushed Intel and AMD to hire tens of thousands of people to forward computers.
Look at all the good Bill Gates has done with his Gates foundation. All thanks to capitalism.
copefarms 2 years ago 2
whom says we can't have the same level of activity or more....w/o corporate capitalism?
EntouchNetwork 2 years ago
De localization is easy - stop using currency and trade locally. Stop feeding the beasts and feed the people.
Starve the Parasites, feed the animal.
PsyogiBottoms 2 years ago
Due to human nature, the majority of humans won't embrace a co-op system until it is better for them. Until they will benefit materially by taking it on.
I have no doubt that they (people) will eventually want to embrace this kind of a system, but I have huge doubt that this transition will take place (in the majority) before it is actually necessary.
yogiudo 2 years ago
This is Russia in the past and we all know what a mess that was!
This is fantasy! People will always reach for more! What we need is to learn to make from better products and materials. There will always be those who do and those who will follow. I for one will not allow some clown with a pie in the sky theory to have a vote in what I do.
I agree that we need to do differently but if I can't realize a return from what I do and pay people well to help me do it then I'm not playing!
scarmenl 2 years ago 4
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highway234 2 years ago
You, like every tv watcher, thinks that business caused the problems. What you don't seem to understand is that criminal business caused the problem and for some reason all business got painted with the same brush.
A business that does act properly, keep it work clean, treat it's people well and supports it's community is a good thing.
scarmenl 2 years ago
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MisterRiffley 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
If you like this, check out the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project. Become a member today!
theblackstarorder 2 years ago
Great discussion. These gentlemen are on the right track with what seems like a workable model. The only problem is getting people to accept this is a more viable system then what we have now.
I think these guys were great, I was just wondering was this some kind of retreat they were on?
valhala56 2 years ago
we didn't videotape this at a retreat (although the Northwest Permaculture Gathering 2006 was held there). It is the Dharmalaya Center, which Ravi Logan describes a bit in the conversation.
peakmoment 2 years ago
He uses a lot of words to say we are all connected by poverty.
1mealperday 2 years ago
have less, be more wraps it up for me.
Of course we are spoiled children, and having less will be resented. Especially in light of recent banker bonuses.
1mealperday 2 years ago 2
Good fucking lord, sitting there with your wal-mart clothes,no shoes, seeesh.
Get a backbone and put on some locally made buckskins and moccasins.
The telecomunications network dude just described is the internet.
tetekofa 2 years ago 3
This is filmed in Oregon. We often go barefoot, sometimes naked. We are not image concious. We are CONTENT concious.
1mealperday 2 years ago