Wow, is this guy really talking about how a person couldn't have faked everything that the bible says Jesus did? That's the problem with the overtly religious. They can't accept the fact that the Bible was written by fallible man. Even IF the original scripture was the word of GOD, it has loooooong since been corrupted by man's hands. The Bible is bullshit.
@ItsThatGuy1989 Is that your argument for the bible's validity? Do you realize the power this book has had, and still has, over people? If this book was not made to control the population, it was made out of delusion by someone who thought they were talking to God. Heck, this book shares so many similarities with past religions so it could just be a matter of retelling those stories. I hope you don't approach the rest of your life with such ignorant logic. Why do so when it comes to the bible?
@iz2sicc Then why, in at least 2,000 years, the bible has not changed. That is so hard to do, that no other book on earth has been copied so many times without the meaning being changed. Besides, what do you lose? You are a better person for it. Look at the risk versus the reward. There's a 50/50 chance. Either god is real or he isn't. But what happens if your wrong? You burn for eternity in hell.
@ItsThatGuy1989 First of all, the bible has changed a great deal. There are hundreds of translations. Ancient Egypt has writings etched into stone. Does that make their stories true? Now those are even less tampered with. As for you last statement... Pascal's wager. It's been shown to be greatly flawed over and over. It is not a 50/50 chance. What if you're wrong about which God is real? What are you going to tell Zeus when he asks why you worshiped the wrong God? Use your brain for once.
@iz2sicc Use your brain. No other religion has historical facts. Yes, historical facts. Unless you don't believe in science, then it is PROVEN that the old testament has stayed exactly the same, with just different wording. It's called the dead sea scrolls. Of course though, you will look it up and find a website with no author to try to disprove it. But it is fact. You can deny it all you want. And either you die or go to heaven. 50/50.
Well the Jews disagree even two thousand years latter so that right there is evidence that Jesus didn't really fulfill like the bible claims not to mention you can study it for yourself to find out that Jesus infact didn't fulfill the prophecies. Strobel isn't being honest about the data.
He Lies in a second ! He Claims That Jesus Claimed That He Is God ? WERE"???
Satanic Lies Corrupted hearts Corrupted life Corrupted Minds !
So God Needs To Murder To Forgive Mans Sin ? Why Not Just Forgive Man Kind Since God Is So Loving In The Bible , Apparentley Muslims are Terrorists and hate Humans Why Is It Allah Forgives If You Call Out And Repent to Him With No Need For Blood Shed Nor Murder !!! Because Islam Is Correct & The Truth
Whatever questions you have, definitely research exhaustively. Ask God/pray. He loves you and wants you to ask. None of us has all of the answers. Yet, our hearts know we were created and not accidents or randomly assembled. Wanting to trust God is a whole other story. Putting one's heart in His Hands seems absurd when we see how we treat one another. What I know to be true is that He is living and that He is good, trustworthy, and is able to handle our questions, anger, hurt, etc.
God is good... He was with me through my parents' divorce as well as painful times in my life (when I drank way too much, etc). I think that what proof most wounded hearts need is not the found archeological evidence, literature, eye-witness testimony, or taking God at His word, etc, it's seeing Him alive through those who have His "heart" in them.
Why then was there no reports other then the bible? I doubt the events really happened as the bible explains they did even the Jewish didn't buy into the story why is that?
@wachnathan do u know that even the torah accepts the fact that Jesus made miracles? And the biggest reason we dont have any other scriptures about Jesus from that time is because of Jerusalems destruction in 70 AD. Not mentioning that israel was an abandoned meningless corner in the roman kingdom. The oldest scriptures about christianity describe the first church but not Jesus. By the way how many jewish historians do we have from that time Jesus lived?
@greken145 Jesus wasn't the first or the only one to perform miracles and there is no evidence of any of them actually working so i don't need to address that, Anyways the bible came from the age of myth mixed with a few historical things reported but so what it needed something to sound convincing. If i give any aguments all i get is exuses not explainatios so i really don't wanna waste my time on this i "clearly" see error in theological thinking am sorry some don't!
@wachnathan First of all, u dont need to believe in miracles allthough i can link u right now 100s of videos there top scientists accept the fact that miracles happen. I said that even Torah that is supposed to be against Jesus admits that he performed miracles so dont come and say why didnt other jews write about him..I think the answer is clear. And what u call age of myth can be explained easily. Troy, labyrinth and Odysseus were myths as well. Untill the day archeologists found them true.
@greken145 Fine the age of assertions with out explaination? Look the past is gone let it go and stop wasting your short life on middle eastern stories that are to vivid to study or prove i think your convinced because thats what it was made to do, No disrespect honest but theism will not dictate my views or my future people today find these old belief systems to be racist, anti-human nature, deceptive, unrealistic and have divided mankind and hasn't helped us reach our goals towards progress.
@wachnathan Let me tell u something since u show some intrest in religion. If u want to have an answer dont ask me, neither yourself.. Ask God and He will answer. The way to do that is in the Bible, ask me if want to know how, ask Christ to visit u or show u His signs and u will find out..
@greken145 The bible is just a man made book with to many issues with the intent to put words in the mouth of a prime being so it can gain attention or power, Jesus is dead and if he wanted us to hear his voice he should have writen his own bible i don't buy into hear say stories twenty years after his death nobody can report a story accurately by hear say or twenty years after the stories took place you just can't. Am trying to be respectful here so don't get offended please.
@wachnathan I dont agree, Bible is inspired directly by God, and the fullfilled prophecies are proof for that. And u must understand that religion is based on faith. If Jesus played a video while he was walking in golgotha and under his ressurection ofc everybody would believe in Him but none would do the right thing because of pure good but because of fear. And i asked something before. Do u honestly believe that christianity would expand s much in Israel at that time if Jesus never existed?
I am atheist yes and its not always easy liven in the dark about the universe but i do know we are part of it and we shouldn't be affraid of it, thats how i live a happy life i don't worry about things i can't know if life is just a chest game for a god i think it cheapens life making us nothing but animals in gage playing by its rules were we aren't allowed to rise above ourselves and our only reward for being good comes after our slow possibly painful death.
I really want to add that we as material beings suffer most of our life already with sickness and loved ones dying with no good bys cancer will kill us if we live long enough we spend the last days of our lives to old to even do it alone and if we mess up we are in a hell of suffering for eternity? What purpose does a prime all loven being have for hell anyways the crimes on earth can never fit that punishment of "forever" just think about these things i can't see the logic in any of it.
@greken145 One more then i will let you catch up, but can any of these so called prophecies really earn merit? think about it a prime universal powerful deity shows its the real deal with a human sacrifice which is so pagon in form really show a good example of a powerful mind that can manipulate the universe anyway it sees fit really be responsible for the bible? if you ask me its very insulting to a creature of such vast power and knowledge if indeed there is such a being.
@wachnathan Insulting, who are u to judge God? Your "own" opinion? There are as many opinions in that world as humans. And sacrifice is altruisms highest level. To suffer in order of bringing good? That sounds wonderful to me. Besides, suffering in that world is temporary but Gods kingdom is eternal.
@greken145 Well ya actually i am, your claiming this god to be super smart super intel. super what ever but yet all we have are very poor very weak examples of this being its two different beings in the bible a cruel one and a good the new addition tells me that early christians didn't like the cruel god so they reinvented it to be a good god which means they were just making this stuff up anyways. I respect your choices i don't believe in telling others what to believe so i do respect you.
@wachnathan I dont agree. Its clearly the same God, the difference is that in the old testament sociaty was much different than today and the laws were temporary and just for the jews in order to prepare the way for Jesus. The new testament God is at least as "crewl" as in the old testament since the sinners will still suffer and pay for their evil. I honestly believe one of the reasons Jesus will come back is to give us new teachings since sociaty has changed even more.
@wachnathan i am not amazed we dont agree, its diffrent ways of views. But since we both are humans and we both can do mistakes, why dont u ask God? Do u know that it is possible to feel God? If u want to know how just ask me. Byt he way, google up "muslims see Jesus" and u might find it surprising how many results u get..
@greken145 You may think you have the answers but for me its not that simple im not satisfied with our answers or our belief systems. I can except deism though am game for that idea and am ok with a unity that is clear to everyone but then how can that be done nobody will ever agree unless this being manifests itself in broad day light people need that security why else do people change there minds about there beliefs so much beliefs aren't stable when there based on faith.
@wachnathan Thats why i advice u to directly ask God, i know it sounds crazy, especially for an atheist but since u want answers, im more than sure God will answer to u. About God manifesting Himself, i told earlier that God cant enter in every mans life and show Himself cause then none would do the right actions based on good will but on fear for the allmighty God and that would be meningless. And yes faith is not easy to have mate, its more like a gift imo.
@greken145 Islam, christianity, mormonism etc. all have failed to convert the world there evidence just isn't strong enough not to mention the double standards in every one of them, I think god is just the ego not an actually thing every one these beliefs systems contradict each other but yet all rooted from the bible its amazing how many splits in theism there is so the message isn't from a god but from human beings the epic scale of problems proves that the bible just doesn't work.
@wachnathan What about atheism and agnosticism? The one contradicts the other too, so what? If a man doesnt want to believe something he just doesnt no matter what evidence u provide him/her. And Gods message is perfect. But everything that comes in contact with humans stops being perfect. Humans just intepret things in different ways and thats very normal. And what is this epic scale of problems? By the way, the archangel of atheism dawkins has recently admitted that God might exists, funny?
@greken145 America needs to catch up on this subject its a dying belief, too many people are divided on this stuff which clearly means its not all that evident and it does nothing but confuse the world look at the statistics of it, it can't be understood clearly there is to much myth and fact involved which breeds confussion and thats dangerous it is a virus. You may disagree but our future depends on getting our facts straight go where the evidence leads us no matter what the cost is.
Quirinius (Cyrenius) bekam governor and organized the census in 6 A.C.
It's impossible that Jesus' birth was at both occasions. But because of prophecies the gospel writters Luke and Matthew made it happen, not because of historical facts!
How many eye witnesses where there and still alive 60 or 70 or more years after Jesus' birth to remember?
@BadScienceForFools Just saying that we don't know the exact date. We know it was no later than when Herod died. Of course you don't know that because you never read the bible but instead mock it when you have no facts.
In fact I HAVE read the bible, from beginning to end, several passages more than once. It's a historical fact that Herod died 4 BCE. The census is also documented when Quirinius became govenour in 6 CE. If Jesus was born no later than when Herod died how does it fit into the time of the census ten years later?
The donkey 1 Jesus could have chosen to fulfill w/out being deceptive believing that he was the messiah & obligated to make his plans in such a way as to fulfill it.
The gospel authors using OT to create some stories is not a possibility refuted by the possiblity that eye witnesses would refute the events. We don't know what if any eye witnesses were exposed to the gospels while alive. & they may have argued against it & like Jesus been ignored or not believed. 2 many imaginary "facts" here.
@myintellectualjourny Ofc some fullifilled prophecies could have been manipulated, as the donkey story for ex there even Mathew says that Jesus told 2 of his companions to bring it to him. But what about 50 other prphecies from the old testament? The majority of them predicts Jesus place and circumstances of birth and life. Many of them couldnt have been manipulated by him.
Hi Greken. I agree that that would be highly unlikely for him to work his life to fulfill 50 prophesy. Can you actually provide me with a list of 50 messianic predictions in the OT that clearly predict something that Jesus did - according to the gospels? Note the four requirements inherent in the idea I mention.
I've not encountered a christian yet who could do this. Many xtian websites list hundreds that do not meet even most of these requirements.
The "four requirements" for messianic prophecies in the OT that Jesus fulfilled (according to the gospels) are (1) that the verse in OT is a prediction of something in the future, (2) that the verse in the OT is clearly about the messiah and not about something or someone else, (3) that the OT verse is being cited with an "in context" historical understanding of its meaning and (4) that Jesus, according to the gospels, actually did what the OT messianic prediction says.
Sorry - I see now from what I wrote that those four were not at all clear from what I said. I should have spelled that out better the first time. My understanding is that most verses in the OT that actually meet these requirements of clearly being predictions in the OT regarding the messiah, or anointed one of the line of David to restore Jerusalem, are ones that Christians admit Jesus DIDN'T DO but say he'll do it next time he comes again (a huge cop-out to many.)
@myintellectualjourny Well if u want i can give you some ot prophecies and we can analyse them together. And i can agree that the gospels authors use very often messianic references from the ot. But that is not so strange since the authors somehow want to prove in the text that He is the Messias. And i dont see the reason we shouldnt trust the gospels. Even though there are doubts about the who was the real author of Luke and Matthew, the stories dont contradict the rest..
I'm up for exploring some with you certainly. The reason I asked for a certain number is because I can admit there are some messianic prophecies that Jesus fulfilled according to the gospels (the birth in bethelham, of the line of david and through solomon, etc and the triumphant entry on the donkey). But most of the "prophecies" I hear Xtians cite - and I used to as one - are not messianic and some not prophecies at all - but again, we can explore some specifics.
On the reliability of the gospels, I'm working on a book about my deconversion where I go into details about why I'm convinced the gospels aren't specifically interested in being historically literal but often presenting non-historic theologically intended portrayals of Jesus in their narratives. There's a lot to it for discussing here but I could point you to two or three books if you were interested in exploring it in depth on your own.
Finally, even after checking the verses that Christians cite as messianic prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, often pulled out & reinterpreted outside of their original context I believe, there's still the question of whether or not the gospels can be trusted on the matter as historic documents or if the authors might just as well be understood - if not better for some reasons (as I could cite), to be using the OT including messianic verses to create their gospels in the 1st place.
The other problem, is of course, the bigger one. And that is that modern day scholarship conclusively shows that it makes more sense to believe the gospel authors created some of the gospel narrative content based on theology and not history. Most of the gospel content gets called into question by this, given how very much of it can readily and compellingly be explained as created based on OT scriptures - much of which is not prophetic at all keep in mind.
The gospels are more about theology - kind of like a great parable about the life of Jesus clothed in images and ideas from the OT - than it is strict history.
@myintellectualjourny Another question. Do u really believe that Jesus followers like Paul, Peter, Marcus etc.. who wrote the gospels and traveled through europe and middle east in order to talk about Jesus would base their faith in something faulse? Do u really believe that these men sacrifised their lives, got beaten up, left their homes to suffer for a lie?
We have all broken God's law, and we all fall short of God's standard. Knowing that we cannot earn our way to Him, God sent his only Son, so that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Jesus died for our sins, and was raised from the dead. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
@toddtyszka, "Learn then that I, I alone, am God, and there is no God beside me. It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, and from my hand there is no rescue."[dt 32:39] Again, "For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back . . . but in your hand none can escape."[wis 16:13,15]
@ Mr. lee strobel, those who belongs to God, will find the Truth, by the grace of God, and the work of the Holy Spirit of God. The devil and all the damned like you are the slave of God. And the master has the right of life and death over his slave. He can sell his slave to anyone he chooses. If you can pardon -- he can kill him as he would kill his horse. But the slave doesn't know his master, and he is always belong to his master.
Mr. Lee strobel, a man with intelligence seeks the knowledge, but the fools feeds on folly. You people have no spirit of Truth in you. You can't see spirit of Truth in the word of God. But in your heart there is the spirit of Contradiction. You are just lying to one another like your father, the father of all the liars -- the devil.
@KincumberBoy "poor or no research and won’t engage scholarly discussion or be challenged by the facts of history." Hahahaha!!! Oh, the pathos of baffled frustration. Once again I invite you to respond in an adult and rational fashion: If you disagree with something I have posted, please identify the error and, using legitimate evidence or sources, correct me. As long as you are being evasive and personal, everyone can see that you are unable to refute my arguments. Step up to the plate, Boy.
Anyone can view the comments on my Profile page and readily see that I allow alternative perspectives and even a fair number of insults.
But when some adolescent posts abuse, lies, accusations, and insults several times a day, that is mere vandalism and harassment, and I have no obligation to host such juvenile graffiti.
@Imaginefree69 I think it's funny that I provide names and you can produce none(0). You just say that Scolars ( using it as loose as you ever could) doubt it. As if that were any retort at all. I guess when you think everything is imaginary, you use yours quite a bit to come up with arguments you can't back up.
@DMichaelAllenMusic "Also the video of JESUS was just a point I was making. " The video of Jesus was a dishonest implication that such a video could be produced. Imaginary evidence for an imaginary argument. You made an accusation against me based on an imaginary and non-existent situation. How rational and responsible is that? And, you choose to take offence at my accurate label. You said " I could send you a video of JESUS performing miracles" but we both know that you could not. EG, a lie.
@Imaginefree69 The point of the video (because it seems your having trouble understading what I meant) was that you won't believe any evidence because you choose not to believe. It's your choice not to hear both sides of a case before you come to a conclusion. It is only when scholars have heard and weighed all of the evidence, and considered all of the arguments, that they can come to an objective conclusion.
That's definitely a two way street isn't it? In fact, Christians are often found believing all kinds of things... because THEY WANT TO BELIEVE. Including in this case - many of us have been saying for years - so called "evidence" / arguments for their religion.
@DMichaelAllenMusic Don't worry about this 69 guy. He's just an antagonist who has no real depth to his arguments and nothing to back them up. Anything that is outside his realm he accuses of dishonesty. I think most of his points can be found on atheist websites and others which are so weak as to be laughable. Really he will waste your time.
The TRUE Messiah fufilled the law, as the dictionary says "FUFILL = to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands."
And His TRUE followers agree to walk as the TRUE Messiah walked (1 John 2:6; 1 Cor 11:1) and to FULFILL, perform, do, obey, FOLLOW the Father's commands also.
Revelation 14:12 tells us His ones that endure guard the commands of YHWH.
LOVE = Guard His commands (1 John 5:3; 2 John 1:6).
4 narrator wrote the bible after 40 years jesus die.all of them not live together with jesus and for more information man who was doing same thing like men do cant not be a god
@KincumberBoy He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end Luke 1:33 Was Jesus ever the King of Israel? NO!
It [the Law] shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes Deuteronomy 17:19 Did Jesus uphold the Law? If he did why don't Christians obey the Law?
Study the legitimate requirements for the Messiah. Jesus failed.
@ebaltrace@ebaltrace And what were the words Pilate put over his head on the cross? He is the King of the Jews and If he is risen he's King of kings. (Rev 19:16) Jesus had an extraordinary knowledge of the the tanakh.
Law? Jesus on this (Matt 5 17.20 & 22 34-40). tho all IS accomplished (jon 19:30). Now that it is finished Galatians 3 , Rom 7. Abraham Saved by faith Rom 4.
@Imaginefree69 There is no certain archaeological evidence now in spite of claims to the contrary. There is plenty of Historical evidence and I refer to my own comments earlier. Had there been a body the Jews could easily have produced it. Claims that a cowering bunch of disciples stole it were easily deflected and had there been evidence to the contrary of either of these then the Jews early claims would have held. There were plenty of witnesses to a Risen Jesus.
@KincumberBoy "There is plenty of Historical evidence" You say this, but you bring no evidence. Let's see if you can respond this time: No there is not. About four sentences in Josephus, and the validity of those are disputed. There were no scribes at the time of Jesus who wrote about him although he was surrounded by scribes. No, there is neither archaeological nor historical evidence that Jesus ever existed outside the imaginations of a few fiction writers.
@Imaginefree69 Of Course scribes didn't follow him around taking notes. He was not a Roman Emperor or the like. He came to the common people. It is very rare that history is recorded in the present except for in our times. Most societies in history were actually oral societies. You'd know that from your theological studies of course. And that oral history is well noted by historians and considered reliable. But I see you happily forget the Talmud and Tacitus.
that Jesus was the bastard child of Mary and a soldier.
Is that what you are referring me to?
Why do you people try to teach what you refuse to study?
Here is the entire reference to jesus by Tacitus:
"Christus, from whom the name [Christian] had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus"
@Imaginefree69 The Talmud states "Jesus of Nazareth was hung up on the day of preparation for the passover..... because he practiced sorcery and led Israel astray"
@ebaltrace I have just found it on several sites. Translation differs but the essence is evidence for existence and execution. I also sent you just one link on Oral Traditions. Anthropologists trust them for cultural histories even if you may not. My wife is Samoan and their history is recorded this way. Having different tribes makes different stories easy to compare.
I never claimed to be giving you an exhaustive list of Talmudic statements regarding Jesus.
Jesus was born out of wedlock (Mishna Yebamoth 4,13) to His mother, Miriam, and her lover Pantera (Shabbat 104b). She is said to have been the descendant of princes and rulers, and to have played the harlot with a carpenter (Sanhedrin 106a).
@Imaginefree69 But you did say "That is all." Naturally you would prefer to believe the Talmud's interp of Jesus legitimacy than the bible's. I'd expect that. Miriam is the Hebrew of Mary. The "Big picture" was exactly what I was trying to draw your attention to. The whole point was there are external references to this one you call fictitious. Not that they outline his life. You are getting off track
@KincumberBoy "But you did say "That is all." " WTF are you talking about? The only comment I can find in which I referenced Talmud said "The Talmud states explicitly that Jesus was the bastard child of Mary and a soldier." Oh, wait, I see. You are trying to pretend that my "that's all" in reference to Tacitus referred to Talmud. The one which I prefaced with "Here is the entire reference to jesus by Tacitus:" I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.
@KincumberBoy You are treating my words like Christians so often treat the text of the Bible: Trim carefully, then twist to fit. Now let's try it the way I REALLY said it: "Once again we see that there is neither archaeological nor historical evidence that Jesus ever existed outside the imaginations of a few fiction writers." If you have evidence to refute my assertion I invite you to present it. If you are just another liar for Jesus I am not interested.
@Imaginefree69 I suppose your tactic is to belittle your adversary. Again this whole debate has been a futile with yet another atheist evangelist who thinks he can bring down Christianity by calling Christians names and with poorly researched arguments. In the same way you reject what I say, we all reject your words. FUTILITY. Therefore. I won't throw any more pearls. Here endeth our exchange in this thread. BTW as you are the oneattacking this thread, its YOU who needs to produce evidence
@Imaginefree69 The other day you accused me of making Juvenile comments yet you continually drop snide remarks into your posts. Now if you want some historical discussion I can message them to you. I have heaps of material for you. However, I am sure you can find plenty on the historicity of Jesus yourself. If you want one of my favourites how about Dr John Dickson PHD in Ancient History and lecturer at Macquarie Uni in Sydney. Want more just ask.
@Imaginefree69 And I do not do others library work for them. The history section is open for your perusal. I made the offer so your call. Don't really have the time for your banter anyway.
@Imaginefree69 I made an offer you rejected it. You are the one the came onto a Christian Youtube and started sprouting your wisdom trying to convert others to your faith because you find this one an ofront to your snesibilities. Therefore YOU are the one with a case to make. Find a historian that calls the existence of Jesus a myth
@Imaginefree69 The Koran speaks of JESUS and says he EXISTS. It talks alot of JESUS and is a completely different religion. Why? If you have questions you can direct them to me. Why would anyone lie for JESUS. That would completely refute the proof and make JESUS out to be a liar which he is not. The bible was also written by more than 40 people. Not a few!
@KincumberBoy A couple of comments regarding the law: 1- the law applied only to those to whom it was given. As we are not Bronze-Age Israeli desert nomads, there is no reason to consider the law at all. 2- where there is no law, there is no offence. So leave the Law in the ancient s=desert where it belongs and stop trying to put people n bondage to it. According to the Bible, the purpose of the law was to make sin abound, so it's foolish and evil to perpetrate it.
@Imaginefree69 Actually I'm not trying to put anyone in bondage to it. If you read the thread you'd see that Jesus work frees us of that. Not that we are free of Law because we are still under authority.
@ebaltrace Study the legitimate requirements for the Messiah. Actually I am very impressed by the Messianic texts. Isaiah 53 could almost have been written after Jesus time. Though we know it wasn't. Anyway Gen 49:10, 2 Sam 7:12-16, Ps 89, Psalm 22:16, Ezek 34:23, Jer 23:5-7, Zch 13:7, Hos 6:2, PS 16:10 Of course there are far too many to deal with here.
@KincumberBoy The prophecies made BY Jesus have also uniformly failed to be fulfilled. His disciples are not conspicuous by their love, they do not manifest the fruits of the spirit, they have nothing approaching unity, they do not do greater works than Jesus, evil has most certainly not been defeated, and he did NOT appear in his kingdom during the lifetime of his audience. Nor after their death, for that matter. The entire religion is no more valid than Islam or any other religion.
@Imaginefree69 And I say to the contrary on each point. The love is apparent through the church. First in the spreading of the gospel, humanitarian work which began in the church, education founded by Christians, nursing - Christians and more to boot.The Kingdom is in the world. Read the parables (mustard seed a good one), it starts with the disciples and is the universal church. Greater works than Jesus is bringing salvation. Evil is defeated and we await Jesus return for finality.
@KincumberBoy " I say to the contrary on each point. Feel free to say what you like, the overwhelming evidence provides no support for the validity of the Christian religion. If you think that THIS *looking around* is the kingdom of God and that THIS is the world after the defeat of evil you are so easily satisfied that any fairy tale would do you as well. There is NO visible kingdom of Christ on this earth. The world has had NO benefit from "Jesus" or your god. None.
@Imaginefree69 In the world does not mean the world. It applies to those who are the church or at least the believers that are in the church. The Church has a very visible presence on this earth. Over 1 billion people alive claim to be Christian. I'd say less but I'm not counting. The completion of God's plan will be at the time of Christ's return. Meantime (Rom 11:25) He waits mercifully. Any further posts I'll have to answer after my exam study this week. Sorry.
@KincumberBoy " In the world does not mean the world. " Oh, yes. Having graduated from a 4-year Bible College I can tell you that a large part of theological training consists of learning to swallow large and awkward incongruities without choking. One of the best lubricants is, "It says that, yes, but it really means THIS." Nearly as useful as "Out of context!!" Another very common lubricant is to label all inconvenient passages as "symbolic!"
@Imaginefree69 And doing theological studies myself I understand that genres such as apocalyptic and parabolic were never meant to be literal. You can't just apply that rule of thumb to any scripture. Some of the things Jesus said were cryptic... none of this makes it any less true. Be very interested to know how and where you got through that much study and came out such a cynic.
@KincumberBoy I'm not a cynic. I'm a realist. I follow the evidence to the truth. I have found no evidence for unicorns and talking animals. ALL of the evidence is against your religion. The Bible is filled with fairy tales, errors, lies, and contradictions. It is NOT supported by history, archaeology, or itself. Christians do NOT manifest the promises and predictions of scripture. I was very hard to convince- it took over 40 years of study and experience to open my eyes to reality.
@Imaginefree69 Wow and you still bombed out huh? never mind. Your investigations can't have been to serious if that is the only argument you can put forward. As a matter of fact there is embarrassingly more evidence for Jesus and his deeds than the existence of any of the major characters of history like Alexander, Julius Caesar. In fact in ancient and modern literature there is more written about Christ than any other.
@KincumberBoy "Never mind", indeed. Save your juvenile snide comments for your peers. You dishonestly speak of my "only argument" when I have offered several already. What kind of evidence would you like? Statistical proof that Christians are NOT protected from illness, injury, insanity, addiction and death? Proof that the Bible is not true? Proof of unfulfilled scriptural prophecies? Proof that Christians have no more of the "fruit of the Spirit" than any other group?
@Imaginefree69 No you haven't. You've made broad statements like "Fiction writers" and your view of how Christianity should look and some dodgy interpretation of prophecy. Non-Christian historians do not share your view. It is not only Christian scholars who research this stuff. If you actually present some arguments that engages some scholarly research we can then talk at that level but you haven't yet really brought that to the table.
I'll offer again: What kind of evidence would you like? Statistical proof that Christians are NOT protected from illness, injury, insanity, addiction and death? Proof that the Bible is not true? Proof of unfulfilled scriptural prophecies? Proof that Christians have no more of the "fruit of the Spirit" than any other group?
@Imaginefree69 Modern literature is not irrelevant, it is discussion and debate pertinent to our times and reflects on ancient lit. More and more of which is being uncovered and used for research. In saying that you are saying that the work of archaeologists and historians is irrelevant. So your DOUBT really is irrelevant. Maybe you should actually review some of the research before making the claims.
Respond to this video...(and over 24000 all up) some believed to be second generation. These had been circulated through the known world and translated into several languages. The amazing thing here though is that by comparing them we can see how accurately they have been reproduced even across language barriers.
@KincumberBoy I find it illuminating that you carefully avoided the evidence that I offered. As I said, where is the group of human beings operating in perfect unity, walking in visible love, manifesting the gifts of the spirit and the works of Christ? You and i both know the answer to that- it does not exist. The promises and predictions of Jesus have evidently, obviously failed to appear.
Respond to this video... No historian worth his salt would claim Jesus didn't exist, there is simply too much documented evidence from outside the bible let alone within. the Gospel accounts were written within living memory of Jesus? and they agree with each other? I have to ask you where you get your information from regarding the historicity of the bible. We do not have the originals but get this: we do have over 5000 (in one language)
@KincumberBoy " too much documented evidence from outside the bible" This is not the first time you have made this claim, but you have yet yo produce any of this evidence. I've failed to find it, myself, so please show it to us. "the Gospel accounts... agree with each other?" Not at all. They are filled with explicit contradictions. They do not even agree on the genealogy of Joseph. John's history of Jesus' early years exposes Matthew's lie about "the Massacre of the Innocents."
@KincumberBoy "The Church has a very visible presence on this earth." Oh, sure. Lots of steeples and crosses, lots of child abuse and anti-gay rallies. But where is the group of human beings operating in perfect unity. walking in visible love, manifesting the gifts of the spirit and the works of Christ? You and i both know the answer to that- it does not exist. The promises and predictions of Jesus have evidently, obviously failed to appear. Just another fantasy world.
@Imaginefree69 "Lots of steeples and crosses"... The church is full of imperfect people. We all know that. Some of those people have still slipped and done terrible things and all are still prone to sinfulness... that is human nature. But not visible by their love. How about the abolishment of slavery - Wilberforce, how about the birth of public education - Did you know that school was started by Sunday school?...
@KincumberBoy "How about the abolishment of slavery " Slavery was abolished by political means when it became economically impracticable. That was not a victory by the church; there was as much opposition by the church as support. Public education? Again, a political achievement in the face of strong church opposition. Don't you know that the Dark Ages were caused by the church? It banned books, burned libraries and universities and restricted literacy to the clergy and royalty.
@Imaginefree69 "Slavery was abolished by political means" "Education" Yes by Christian Politicians. And I agree with you regarding the middle ages. The Church was in error and I would further that to say it has been many times and is today. If you're arguing that Christians are far from perfect - Amen. But not in the sight of God because of the work of Jesus. That doesn't detract from the great work implemented by people in the church.
@Imaginefree69 Humanitarian aid started through the Missionary societies CMS etc. and now evident in organisations such as World Vision and a vital part of this work was also domestically started through William Booth the Salvation Army. Central to all of this is the mission to save people for eternity. What did they teach you in bible college? Or weren't you listening? sounds like you missed church history altogether. Humanitarian work and evangelism are still vibrant in today's church...
@KincumberBoy I suppose you wouldn't call these things love. Now! What has atheism ever left for us as a legacy besides communism and 250 million deaths through it's various forms over the last century. The Crusades (led for man's selfish desires) pale in to insignificance by comparison.
@Imaginefree69 Atheism is a belief so by the sounds of it has become your form of faith. Organised atheism which sort to abolish freedom of religion took on a form and became the state. Is that what you seek.
Many of the early scientists, such as Copernicus were Christians
NOW sorry mate I cannot keep responding to your posts I have work to do.
@KincumberBoy Atheism is actually a LACK of belief in god(s). No faith needed. I believe in evidence, which leads us to reality. "Many of the early scientists, such as Copernicus were Christians" No kidding. When only Christians and Royalty had access to education ALL scientists were, by definition, Christian. And he was attacked by the church for telling the truth, too. Your examples prove my assertion. Thanks for playing.
@KincumberBoy "sounds like you missed church history altogether. " Sounds like YOU swallowed the propaganda whole. Try comparing church self-congratulations with the verifiable history recorded by historians. "Humanitarian work and evangelism are still vibrant in today's church..." Is that what you call anti-gay and anti-abortion rallies? Is that a new name for removing biology from the classroom and substituting Bronze Age fairy tales a bout unicorns and talking animals? Jesus Camps, maybe?
@KincumberBoy 2Sam 7:12-16 ????? Are you kidding? Did you read verse 14?
I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men
when he commits iniquity???? I thought Jesus was supposed to be sinless....that he never committed iniquity???
We both know that this passage has nothing to do with Jesus and there is no identification with Jesus.
@ebaltrace Yes I have read the passage many times and like many Messianic passages alludes to 2 things. Here it refers to Solomon but draws parallels to Jesus who, tho sinless (2 Cor 5:21) bore the punishment of men and the wrath of God. So yes it is directly related and well accepted by theologians around the globe as such.
@ebaltrace "When he commits iniquity???" You have to be a real mental gymnast to be a good theologist. You just learn to siphon off a few words here and there and fit them into your Messianic dogma like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Honesty and reason are disqualifying faults.As Martin Luther, father of the Reformation, said, "“Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has" and "Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason" and "Reason should be destroyed in all Christians"
@Imaginefree69 I would expect that eventually Science will make the truth so apparent that the Churches would close their doors and go into foreclosure.
In the past the religious establishment intimidated critics. But I think that now the internet is allowing critics to cry out " The Emperor has no clothes"
It's just a matter of time. Keep the pressure up. Cut them no slack. Bring Christianity down.
who was there to eyewitness the birth? mustve been more than one because of the gospels differing accounts
cattlexing 3 months ago
Wow, is this guy really talking about how a person couldn't have faked everything that the bible says Jesus did? That's the problem with the overtly religious. They can't accept the fact that the Bible was written by fallible man. Even IF the original scripture was the word of GOD, it has loooooong since been corrupted by man's hands. The Bible is bullshit.
iz2sicc 5 months ago in playlist For Atheists, Skeptics, & Unbelievers (in Christ)
@iz2sicc Only scholars changed the bible so corruption couldn't happen. Besides, why would someone make up an entire book? For a joke?
ItsThatGuy1989 2 months ago
@ItsThatGuy1989 Is that your argument for the bible's validity? Do you realize the power this book has had, and still has, over people? If this book was not made to control the population, it was made out of delusion by someone who thought they were talking to God. Heck, this book shares so many similarities with past religions so it could just be a matter of retelling those stories. I hope you don't approach the rest of your life with such ignorant logic. Why do so when it comes to the bible?
iz2sicc 2 months ago
@iz2sicc Then why, in at least 2,000 years, the bible has not changed. That is so hard to do, that no other book on earth has been copied so many times without the meaning being changed. Besides, what do you lose? You are a better person for it. Look at the risk versus the reward. There's a 50/50 chance. Either god is real or he isn't. But what happens if your wrong? You burn for eternity in hell.
ItsThatGuy1989 2 months ago
@ItsThatGuy1989 First of all, the bible has changed a great deal. There are hundreds of translations. Ancient Egypt has writings etched into stone. Does that make their stories true? Now those are even less tampered with. As for you last statement... Pascal's wager. It's been shown to be greatly flawed over and over. It is not a 50/50 chance. What if you're wrong about which God is real? What are you going to tell Zeus when he asks why you worshiped the wrong God? Use your brain for once.
iz2sicc 2 months ago
@iz2sicc Use your brain. No other religion has historical facts. Yes, historical facts. Unless you don't believe in science, then it is PROVEN that the old testament has stayed exactly the same, with just different wording. It's called the dead sea scrolls. Of course though, you will look it up and find a website with no author to try to disprove it. But it is fact. You can deny it all you want. And either you die or go to heaven. 50/50.
ItsThatGuy1989 2 months ago
Well the Jews disagree even two thousand years latter so that right there is evidence that Jesus didn't really fulfill like the bible claims not to mention you can study it for yourself to find out that Jesus infact didn't fulfill the prophecies. Strobel isn't being honest about the data.
wachnathan 6 months ago
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טז חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם.
فمه هو الأكثر الحلو؛ نعم، تماما انه هو محمد. هذا هو بلدي الحبيب، وهذا هو صديقي يا بنات أورشليم '.
[16] His words are the most loved: yea, he is most definantly Muhammad [מַחֲמַדִּים]
. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. soung of soungs
hallalmart 10 months ago
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He Lies in a second ! He Claims That Jesus Claimed That He Is God ? WERE"???
Satanic Lies Corrupted hearts Corrupted life Corrupted Minds !
So God Needs To Murder To Forgive Mans Sin ? Why Not Just Forgive Man Kind Since God Is So Loving In The Bible , Apparentley Muslims are Terrorists and hate Humans Why Is It Allah Forgives If You Call Out And Repent to Him With No Need For Blood Shed Nor Murder !!! Because Islam Is Correct & The Truth
drdato 11 months ago
Whatever questions you have, definitely research exhaustively. Ask God/pray. He loves you and wants you to ask. None of us has all of the answers. Yet, our hearts know we were created and not accidents or randomly assembled. Wanting to trust God is a whole other story. Putting one's heart in His Hands seems absurd when we see how we treat one another. What I know to be true is that He is living and that He is good, trustworthy, and is able to handle our questions, anger, hurt, etc.
TheMerbla 11 months ago
God is good... He was with me through my parents' divorce as well as painful times in my life (when I drank way too much, etc). I think that what proof most wounded hearts need is not the found archeological evidence, literature, eye-witness testimony, or taking God at His word, etc, it's seeing Him alive through those who have His "heart" in them.
TheMerbla 11 months ago
Why then was there no reports other then the bible? I doubt the events really happened as the bible explains they did even the Jewish didn't buy into the story why is that?
wachnathan 1 year ago
@wachnathan do u know that even the torah accepts the fact that Jesus made miracles? And the biggest reason we dont have any other scriptures about Jesus from that time is because of Jerusalems destruction in 70 AD. Not mentioning that israel was an abandoned meningless corner in the roman kingdom. The oldest scriptures about christianity describe the first church but not Jesus. By the way how many jewish historians do we have from that time Jesus lived?
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145 Jesus wasn't the first or the only one to perform miracles and there is no evidence of any of them actually working so i don't need to address that, Anyways the bible came from the age of myth mixed with a few historical things reported but so what it needed something to sound convincing. If i give any aguments all i get is exuses not explainatios so i really don't wanna waste my time on this i "clearly" see error in theological thinking am sorry some don't!
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan First of all, u dont need to believe in miracles allthough i can link u right now 100s of videos there top scientists accept the fact that miracles happen. I said that even Torah that is supposed to be against Jesus admits that he performed miracles so dont come and say why didnt other jews write about him..I think the answer is clear. And what u call age of myth can be explained easily. Troy, labyrinth and Odysseus were myths as well. Untill the day archeologists found them true.
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145 Fine the age of assertions with out explaination? Look the past is gone let it go and stop wasting your short life on middle eastern stories that are to vivid to study or prove i think your convinced because thats what it was made to do, No disrespect honest but theism will not dictate my views or my future people today find these old belief systems to be racist, anti-human nature, deceptive, unrealistic and have divided mankind and hasn't helped us reach our goals towards progress.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan Let me tell u something since u show some intrest in religion. If u want to have an answer dont ask me, neither yourself.. Ask God and He will answer. The way to do that is in the Bible, ask me if want to know how, ask Christ to visit u or show u His signs and u will find out..
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145 The bible is just a man made book with to many issues with the intent to put words in the mouth of a prime being so it can gain attention or power, Jesus is dead and if he wanted us to hear his voice he should have writen his own bible i don't buy into hear say stories twenty years after his death nobody can report a story accurately by hear say or twenty years after the stories took place you just can't. Am trying to be respectful here so don't get offended please.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan I dont agree, Bible is inspired directly by God, and the fullfilled prophecies are proof for that. And u must understand that religion is based on faith. If Jesus played a video while he was walking in golgotha and under his ressurection ofc everybody would believe in Him but none would do the right thing because of pure good but because of fear. And i asked something before. Do u honestly believe that christianity would expand s much in Israel at that time if Jesus never existed?
greken145 8 months ago
I am atheist yes and its not always easy liven in the dark about the universe but i do know we are part of it and we shouldn't be affraid of it, thats how i live a happy life i don't worry about things i can't know if life is just a chest game for a god i think it cheapens life making us nothing but animals in gage playing by its rules were we aren't allowed to rise above ourselves and our only reward for being good comes after our slow possibly painful death.
wachnathan 8 months ago
I really want to add that we as material beings suffer most of our life already with sickness and loved ones dying with no good bys cancer will kill us if we live long enough we spend the last days of our lives to old to even do it alone and if we mess up we are in a hell of suffering for eternity? What purpose does a prime all loven being have for hell anyways the crimes on earth can never fit that punishment of "forever" just think about these things i can't see the logic in any of it.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@greken145 One more then i will let you catch up, but can any of these so called prophecies really earn merit? think about it a prime universal powerful deity shows its the real deal with a human sacrifice which is so pagon in form really show a good example of a powerful mind that can manipulate the universe anyway it sees fit really be responsible for the bible? if you ask me its very insulting to a creature of such vast power and knowledge if indeed there is such a being.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan Insulting, who are u to judge God? Your "own" opinion? There are as many opinions in that world as humans. And sacrifice is altruisms highest level. To suffer in order of bringing good? That sounds wonderful to me. Besides, suffering in that world is temporary but Gods kingdom is eternal.
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145 Well ya actually i am, your claiming this god to be super smart super intel. super what ever but yet all we have are very poor very weak examples of this being its two different beings in the bible a cruel one and a good the new addition tells me that early christians didn't like the cruel god so they reinvented it to be a good god which means they were just making this stuff up anyways. I respect your choices i don't believe in telling others what to believe so i do respect you.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan I dont agree. Its clearly the same God, the difference is that in the old testament sociaty was much different than today and the laws were temporary and just for the jews in order to prepare the way for Jesus. The new testament God is at least as "crewl" as in the old testament since the sinners will still suffer and pay for their evil. I honestly believe one of the reasons Jesus will come back is to give us new teachings since sociaty has changed even more.
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145 I figured you wouldn't agree and thats your view of it which is fine to me i don't mind what you wanna believe.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan i am not amazed we dont agree, its diffrent ways of views. But since we both are humans and we both can do mistakes, why dont u ask God? Do u know that it is possible to feel God? If u want to know how just ask me. Byt he way, google up "muslims see Jesus" and u might find it surprising how many results u get..
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145 You may think you have the answers but for me its not that simple im not satisfied with our answers or our belief systems. I can except deism though am game for that idea and am ok with a unity that is clear to everyone but then how can that be done nobody will ever agree unless this being manifests itself in broad day light people need that security why else do people change there minds about there beliefs so much beliefs aren't stable when there based on faith.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan Thats why i advice u to directly ask God, i know it sounds crazy, especially for an atheist but since u want answers, im more than sure God will answer to u. About God manifesting Himself, i told earlier that God cant enter in every mans life and show Himself cause then none would do the right actions based on good will but on fear for the allmighty God and that would be meningless. And yes faith is not easy to have mate, its more like a gift imo.
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145 Considered.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@greken145 Islam, christianity, mormonism etc. all have failed to convert the world there evidence just isn't strong enough not to mention the double standards in every one of them, I think god is just the ego not an actually thing every one these beliefs systems contradict each other but yet all rooted from the bible its amazing how many splits in theism there is so the message isn't from a god but from human beings the epic scale of problems proves that the bible just doesn't work.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan What about atheism and agnosticism? The one contradicts the other too, so what? If a man doesnt want to believe something he just doesnt no matter what evidence u provide him/her. And Gods message is perfect. But everything that comes in contact with humans stops being perfect. Humans just intepret things in different ways and thats very normal. And what is this epic scale of problems? By the way, the archangel of atheism dawkins has recently admitted that God might exists, funny?
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145 America needs to catch up on this subject its a dying belief, too many people are divided on this stuff which clearly means its not all that evident and it does nothing but confuse the world look at the statistics of it, it can't be understood clearly there is to much myth and fact involved which breeds confussion and thats dangerous it is a virus. You may disagree but our future depends on getting our facts straight go where the evidence leads us no matter what the cost is.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@greken145 Sorry i strayed off the subject a little bit i couldn't help it.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan I ment some of them not all
wachnathan 8 months ago
King Herod died 4 B.C.
Quirinius (Cyrenius) bekam governor and organized the census in 6 A.C.
It's impossible that Jesus' birth was at both occasions. But because of prophecies the gospel writters Luke and Matthew made it happen, not because of historical facts!
How many eye witnesses where there and still alive 60 or 70 or more years after Jesus' birth to remember?
BadScienceForFools 1 year ago 2
@BadScienceForFools Have u ever thought that if Jesus was faulse that christianity would never grow up that much in israel at that time?
greken145 8 months ago
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DrFruedienslip 3 months ago
@BadScienceForFools Just saying that we don't know the exact date. We know it was no later than when Herod died. Of course you don't know that because you never read the bible but instead mock it when you have no facts.
ItsThatGuy1989 2 months ago
@ItsThatGuy1989
In fact I HAVE read the bible, from beginning to end, several passages more than once. It's a historical fact that Herod died 4 BCE. The census is also documented when Quirinius became govenour in 6 CE. If Jesus was born no later than when Herod died how does it fit into the time of the census ten years later?
BadScienceForFools 2 months ago
@BadScienceForFools Sorry but you're wrong.
ItsThatGuy1989 2 months ago
The donkey 1 Jesus could have chosen to fulfill w/out being deceptive believing that he was the messiah & obligated to make his plans in such a way as to fulfill it.
The gospel authors using OT to create some stories is not a possibility refuted by the possiblity that eye witnesses would refute the events. We don't know what if any eye witnesses were exposed to the gospels while alive. & they may have argued against it & like Jesus been ignored or not believed. 2 many imaginary "facts" here.
myintellectualjourny 1 year ago
@myintellectualjourny Ofc some fullifilled prophecies could have been manipulated, as the donkey story for ex there even Mathew says that Jesus told 2 of his companions to bring it to him. But what about 50 other prphecies from the old testament? The majority of them predicts Jesus place and circumstances of birth and life. Many of them couldnt have been manipulated by him.
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145
Hi Greken. I agree that that would be highly unlikely for him to work his life to fulfill 50 prophesy. Can you actually provide me with a list of 50 messianic predictions in the OT that clearly predict something that Jesus did - according to the gospels? Note the four requirements inherent in the idea I mention.
I've not encountered a christian yet who could do this. Many xtian websites list hundreds that do not meet even most of these requirements.
myintellectualjourny 8 months ago
@myintellectualjourny What do u mean by "4 requirements"?
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145
(B1)
The "four requirements" for messianic prophecies in the OT that Jesus fulfilled (according to the gospels) are (1) that the verse in OT is a prediction of something in the future, (2) that the verse in the OT is clearly about the messiah and not about something or someone else, (3) that the OT verse is being cited with an "in context" historical understanding of its meaning and (4) that Jesus, according to the gospels, actually did what the OT messianic prediction says.
myintellectualjourny 7 months ago
@greken145
(B2)
Sorry - I see now from what I wrote that those four were not at all clear from what I said. I should have spelled that out better the first time. My understanding is that most verses in the OT that actually meet these requirements of clearly being predictions in the OT regarding the messiah, or anointed one of the line of David to restore Jerusalem, are ones that Christians admit Jesus DIDN'T DO but say he'll do it next time he comes again (a huge cop-out to many.)
myintellectualjourny 7 months ago
@myintellectualjourny Well if u want i can give you some ot prophecies and we can analyse them together. And i can agree that the gospels authors use very often messianic references from the ot. But that is not so strange since the authors somehow want to prove in the text that He is the Messias. And i dont see the reason we shouldnt trust the gospels. Even though there are doubts about the who was the real author of Luke and Matthew, the stories dont contradict the rest..
greken145 7 months ago
@greken145
I'm up for exploring some with you certainly. The reason I asked for a certain number is because I can admit there are some messianic prophecies that Jesus fulfilled according to the gospels (the birth in bethelham, of the line of david and through solomon, etc and the triumphant entry on the donkey). But most of the "prophecies" I hear Xtians cite - and I used to as one - are not messianic and some not prophecies at all - but again, we can explore some specifics.
myintellectualjourny 7 months ago
@myintellectualjourny
(cont'd)
On the reliability of the gospels, I'm working on a book about my deconversion where I go into details about why I'm convinced the gospels aren't specifically interested in being historically literal but often presenting non-historic theologically intended portrayals of Jesus in their narratives. There's a lot to it for discussing here but I could point you to two or three books if you were interested in exploring it in depth on your own.
myintellectualjourny 7 months ago
@greken145
(B3)
Finally, even after checking the verses that Christians cite as messianic prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, often pulled out & reinterpreted outside of their original context I believe, there's still the question of whether or not the gospels can be trusted on the matter as historic documents or if the authors might just as well be understood - if not better for some reasons (as I could cite), to be using the OT including messianic verses to create their gospels in the 1st place.
myintellectualjourny 7 months ago
@greken145
(cont'd)
The other problem, is of course, the bigger one. And that is that modern day scholarship conclusively shows that it makes more sense to believe the gospel authors created some of the gospel narrative content based on theology and not history. Most of the gospel content gets called into question by this, given how very much of it can readily and compellingly be explained as created based on OT scriptures - much of which is not prophetic at all keep in mind.
myintellectualjourny 8 months ago
@greken145
The gospels are more about theology - kind of like a great parable about the life of Jesus clothed in images and ideas from the OT - than it is strict history.
myintellectualjourny 8 months ago
@myintellectualjourny Another question. Do u really believe that Jesus followers like Paul, Peter, Marcus etc.. who wrote the gospels and traveled through europe and middle east in order to talk about Jesus would base their faith in something faulse? Do u really believe that these men sacrifised their lives, got beaten up, left their homes to suffer for a lie?
greken145 8 months ago
We have all broken God's law, and we all fall short of God's standard. Knowing that we cannot earn our way to Him, God sent his only Son, so that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Jesus died for our sins, and was raised from the dead. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
tanon77 1 year ago
@toddtyszka, "Learn then that I, I alone, am God, and there is no God beside me. It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, and from my hand there is no rescue."[dt 32:39] Again, "For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back . . . but in your hand none can escape."[wis 16:13,15]
valio2750 1 year ago
@ Mr. lee strobel, those who belongs to God, will find the Truth, by the grace of God, and the work of the Holy Spirit of God. The devil and all the damned like you are the slave of God. And the master has the right of life and death over his slave. He can sell his slave to anyone he chooses. If you can pardon -- he can kill him as he would kill his horse. But the slave doesn't know his master, and he is always belong to his master.
valio2750 1 year ago
Mr. Lee strobel, a man with intelligence seeks the knowledge, but the fools feeds on folly. You people have no spirit of Truth in you. You can't see spirit of Truth in the word of God. But in your heart there is the spirit of Contradiction. You are just lying to one another like your father, the father of all the liars -- the devil.
valio2750 1 year ago
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KincumberBoy 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
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KincumberBoy 1 year ago
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KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
" Hypocrisy?"
Not even close, Boy.
Anyone can view the comments on my Profile page and readily see that I allow alternative perspectives and even a fair number of insults.
But when some adolescent posts abuse, lies, accusations, and insults several times a day, that is mere vandalism and harassment, and I have no obligation to host such juvenile graffiti.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Just matchin' your style brother. Sadly in this case all too true.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 The old yeller comment was a joke. Loosen up:) Also you never answered my question. What Scholars, by Name, doubt these references?
DMichaelAllenMusic 1 year ago
@DMichaelAllenMusic
I have no intention of chasing your red herring.
*I* doubt your sources,
because not even ONE of them was contemporary with Jesus.
Until you provide at least ONE valid source,
I have no need to refute anything.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 I think it's funny that I provide names and you can produce none(0). You just say that Scolars ( using it as loose as you ever could) doubt it. As if that were any retort at all. I guess when you think everything is imaginary, you use yours quite a bit to come up with arguments you can't back up.
DMichaelAllenMusic 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Also the video of JESUS was just a point I was making. There is no reason for name calling.
DMichaelAllenMusic 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 The point of the video (because it seems your having trouble understading what I meant) was that you won't believe any evidence because you choose not to believe. It's your choice not to hear both sides of a case before you come to a conclusion. It is only when scholars have heard and weighed all of the evidence, and considered all of the arguments, that they can come to an objective conclusion.
DMichaelAllenMusic 1 year ago
@DMichaelAllenMusic
That's definitely a two way street isn't it? In fact, Christians are often found believing all kinds of things... because THEY WANT TO BELIEVE. Including in this case - many of us have been saying for years - so called "evidence" / arguments for their religion.
The reason is weak, but the faith is strong.
myintellectualjourny 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 But you do not. So how can you argue at all.
DMichaelAllenMusic 1 year ago
@DMichaelAllenMusic Don't worry about this 69 guy. He's just an antagonist who has no real depth to his arguments and nothing to back them up. Anything that is outside his realm he accuses of dishonesty. I think most of his points can be found on atheist websites and others which are so weak as to be laughable. Really he will waste your time.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
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The TRUE Messiah fufilled the law, as the dictionary says "FUFILL = to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands."
And His TRUE followers agree to walk as the TRUE Messiah walked (1 John 2:6; 1 Cor 11:1) and to FULFILL, perform, do, obey, FOLLOW the Father's commands also.
Revelation 14:12 tells us His ones that endure guard the commands of YHWH.
LOVE = Guard His commands (1 John 5:3; 2 John 1:6).
Hallelu~YaH !!!
SIN = LAWLESSNESS (1 John 3:3-7)
4Romans8 1 year ago
Hear the Word of The LORD Spoken to THIS Modern Generation @:
dubdubdub . TrumpetCallofGodOnline . c0m
YouTube: ThusSaithYah or TrumpetCallofGod
ThusSaithYAH 1 year ago
4 narrator wrote the bible after 40 years jesus die.all of them not live together with jesus and for more information man who was doing same thing like men do cant not be a god
AIDDYSHA 1 year ago
@AIDDYSHA Can I ask why God can't become man and dwell among us?
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end Luke 1:33 Was Jesus ever the King of Israel? NO!
It [the Law] shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes Deuteronomy 17:19 Did Jesus uphold the Law? If he did why don't Christians obey the Law?
Study the legitimate requirements for the Messiah. Jesus failed.
Ebal
ebaltrace 1 year ago
@ebaltrace @ebaltrace And what were the words Pilate put over his head on the cross? He is the King of the Jews and If he is risen he's King of kings. (Rev 19:16) Jesus had an extraordinary knowledge of the the tanakh.
Law? Jesus on this (Matt 5 17.20 & 22 34-40). tho all IS accomplished (jon 19:30). Now that it is finished Galatians 3 , Rom 7. Abraham Saved by faith Rom 4.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy "what were the words Pilate put over his head on the cross? "
Since when is Pilate in a position to determine
who the king of Jews was?
You are correct to say IF he is risen-
there is no proof of tht whatsoever.
In fact, there is very little historical or archaeological evidence
that Jesus ever lived at all.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 There is no certain archaeological evidence now in spite of claims to the contrary. There is plenty of Historical evidence and I refer to my own comments earlier. Had there been a body the Jews could easily have produced it. Claims that a cowering bunch of disciples stole it were easily deflected and had there been evidence to the contrary of either of these then the Jews early claims would have held. There were plenty of witnesses to a Risen Jesus.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
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@KincumberBoy "There is plenty of Historical evidence"
No there is not.
About four sentences in Josephus,
and the validity of those are disputed.
There were no scribes at the time of Jesus who wrote about him
although he was surrounded by scribes.
No, there is neither archaeological nor historical evidence
that Jesus ever existed outside the imaginations
of a few fiction writers.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Of Course scribes didn't follow him around taking notes. He was not a Roman Emperor or the like. He came to the common people. It is very rare that history is recorded in the present except for in our times. Most societies in history were actually oral societies. You'd know that from your theological studies of course. And that oral history is well noted by historians and considered reliable. But I see you happily forget the Talmud and Tacitus.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy You guys just keep trotting out the same old debunked arguments. Oral transmission is not accurate.
ebaltrace 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
The Talmud states explicitly
that Jesus was the bastard child of Mary and a soldier.
Is that what you are referring me to?
Why do you people try to teach what you refuse to study?
Here is the entire reference to jesus by Tacitus:
"Christus, from whom the name [Christian] had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus"
That is all.
No virgin birth, no miracles, no "son of God."
No evidence at all.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 The Talmud states "Jesus of Nazareth was hung up on the day of preparation for the passover..... because he practiced sorcery and led Israel astray"
Barathia Sanhedrin 43a
Hardly what you just said hey?
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy I searched for " Barathia Sanhedrin 43a" on the Chabad.org website and found nothing. Check your spelling or your source.
ebaltrace 1 year ago
@ebaltrace I have just found it on several sites. Translation differs but the essence is evidence for existence and execution. I also sent you just one link on Oral Traditions. Anthropologists trust them for cultural histories even if you may not. My wife is Samoan and their history is recorded this way. Having different tribes makes different stories easy to compare.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
What is your point?
I never claimed to be giving you an exhaustive list of Talmudic statements regarding Jesus.
Jesus was born out of wedlock (Mishna Yebamoth 4,13) to His mother, Miriam, and her lover Pantera (Shabbat 104b). She is said to have been the descendant of princes and rulers, and to have played the harlot with a carpenter (Sanhedrin 106a).
Try to focus on the big picture;
nit-picking unimportant details
does not make you look intelligent.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 But you did say "That is all." Naturally you would prefer to believe the Talmud's interp of Jesus legitimacy than the bible's. I'd expect that. Miriam is the Hebrew of Mary. The "Big picture" was exactly what I was trying to draw your attention to. The whole point was there are external references to this one you call fictitious. Not that they outline his life. You are getting off track
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 My apologies you are right
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
Wow.
I'm speechless.
Thanks.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
"Naturally you would prefer to believe the Talmud's interp of Jesus legitimacy than the bible's"
Save your assumptions and accusations.
My point is not that Talmud is more valid,
but that it fails to support the historicity
of your virgin-born messiah.
If you just want to twist things,
you don't need me.
Go right ahead without me.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
"there are external references to this one"
Well, yes, there are external references
to an illegitimate Jewish boy born to Mary.
How does that support your beliefs?
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Proves the above assumption
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
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@KincumberBoy
"Proves the above assumption"
Whatever that is supposed to mean.
Is it asking too much to have a bit of context for your comments?
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Your point was "Jesus ever existed outside the imaginations of a few fiction writers." Clearly not the case
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Guess I'd rather be a Christian liar with hope than an atheist one without
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@KincumberBoy
Am I missing something?
You don't seem to be making any sense.
What do you mean by "Proves the above assumption"?
And as those born of god can not sin.
how can a liar have "hope"?
Hope of what?
Getting an education some day?
This makes no sense.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 I suppose your tactic is to belittle your adversary. Again this whole debate has been a futile with yet another atheist evangelist who thinks he can bring down Christianity by calling Christians names and with poorly researched arguments. In the same way you reject what I say, we all reject your words. FUTILITY. Therefore. I won't throw any more pearls. Here endeth our exchange in this thread. BTW as you are the oneattacking this thread, its YOU who needs to produce evidence
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
Now you are trying to personalize the discussion and divert attention from the fact that I have answered and refuted each of your claims.
Your Talmud quote was a bust.
Your Tacitus quote was a bust.
You say you want to be a Xian liar.
You misquote me (you did admit and apologize ONCE).
Your most honest statement so far has been
"we all reject your words. "
and that's not a quote I would care to have to own up to.
Get an education and try again with an open mind.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
Once again we see that there is
neither archaeological nor historical evidence
that Jesus ever existed
outside the imaginations of a few fiction writers.
None whatsoever.
Just fairy tales written long before and long after.
It's a well-respected tradition called
"Once upon a time..."
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 And once again your on your own because historians, Christian and Non Christian completely disagree with you
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
"historians, Christian and Non Christian completely disagree with you"
Lots of claims, but no evidence.
As usual.
You'll have to do better than this-
mere biased denial means nothing in an adult discussion.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 The other day you accused me of making Juvenile comments yet you continually drop snide remarks into your posts. Now if you want some historical discussion I can message them to you. I have heaps of material for you. However, I am sure you can find plenty on the historicity of Jesus yourself. If you want one of my favourites how about Dr John Dickson PHD in Ancient History and lecturer at Macquarie Uni in Sydney. Want more just ask.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
"you continually drop snide remarks into your posts."
I continually call lies lies.
I continually point out deliberate errors,
omissions, and text-twisting.
Would you rather I applaud lies and fraud?
I do not read PMs and O do not engage in private discussions.
If you have some evidence to produce,
bring it here where everyone can see it.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 And I do not do others library work for them. The history section is open for your perusal. I made the offer so your call. Don't really have the time for your banter anyway.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
Another evasion.
If you have evidence, produce it.
If you don't, then stop lying.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 I made an offer you rejected it. You are the one the came onto a Christian Youtube and started sprouting your wisdom trying to convert others to your faith because you find this one an ofront to your snesibilities. Therefore YOU are the one with a case to make. Find a historian that calls the existence of Jesus a myth
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
Hey, you're the boy with the claims.
You were quite bold in telling me how history and historians abundantly prove the fairy tale of Jesus.
Your attempts to prove this have failed dismally, so now you are all the way down to trying to lay the burden of proof for YOUR claims on ME.
Quite pathetic, really.
You have utterly failed to support your assertion.
Maybe if you think about that a bit
your eyes will begin to open to the possibility
that you have been duped.
It's a fable.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 The Koran speaks of JESUS and says he EXISTS. It talks alot of JESUS and is a completely different religion. Why? If you have questions you can direct them to me. Why would anyone lie for JESUS. That would completely refute the proof and make JESUS out to be a liar which he is not. The bible was also written by more than 40 people. Not a few!
DMichaelAllenMusic 1 year ago
@DMichaelAllenMusic
"Why would anyone lie for JESUS. "
It's a mystery, isn't it?
But they do it, every minute of the day, right here on youtube.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DMichaelAllenMusic
"Why would anyone lie for JESUS. "
It's a mystery, isn't it?
But they do it, every minute of the day, right here on youtube.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@ebaltrace No one can uphold the law. It is impossible not to slip (Rom 3:23). That is the whole point of the passion.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Actually I'm not trying to put anyone in bondage to it. If you read the thread you'd see that Jesus work frees us of that. Not that we are free of Law because we are still under authority.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@ebaltrace Study the legitimate requirements for the Messiah. Actually I am very impressed by the Messianic texts. Isaiah 53 could almost have been written after Jesus time. Though we know it wasn't. Anyway Gen 49:10, 2 Sam 7:12-16, Ps 89, Psalm 22:16, Ezek 34:23, Jer 23:5-7, Zch 13:7, Hos 6:2, PS 16:10 Of course there are far too many to deal with here.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 And I say to the contrary on each point. The love is apparent through the church. First in the spreading of the gospel, humanitarian work which began in the church, education founded by Christians, nursing - Christians and more to boot.The Kingdom is in the world. Read the parables (mustard seed a good one), it starts with the disciples and is the universal church. Greater works than Jesus is bringing salvation. Evil is defeated and we await Jesus return for finality.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 In the world does not mean the world. It applies to those who are the church or at least the believers that are in the church. The Church has a very visible presence on this earth. Over 1 billion people alive claim to be Christian. I'd say less but I'm not counting. The completion of God's plan will be at the time of Christ's return. Meantime (Rom 11:25) He waits mercifully. Any further posts I'll have to answer after my exam study this week. Sorry.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 And doing theological studies myself I understand that genres such as apocalyptic and parabolic were never meant to be literal. You can't just apply that rule of thumb to any scripture. Some of the things Jesus said were cryptic... none of this makes it any less true. Be very interested to know how and where you got through that much study and came out such a cynic.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Wow and you still bombed out huh? never mind. Your investigations can't have been to serious if that is the only argument you can put forward. As a matter of fact there is embarrassingly more evidence for Jesus and his deeds than the existence of any of the major characters of history like Alexander, Julius Caesar. In fact in ancient and modern literature there is more written about Christ than any other.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 No you haven't. You've made broad statements like "Fiction writers" and your view of how Christianity should look and some dodgy interpretation of prophecy. Non-Christian historians do not share your view. It is not only Christian scholars who research this stuff. If you actually present some arguments that engages some scholarly research we can then talk at that level but you haven't yet really brought that to the table.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
I'll offer again: What kind of evidence would you like? Statistical proof that Christians are NOT protected from illness, injury, insanity, addiction and death? Proof that the Bible is not true? Proof of unfulfilled scriptural prophecies? Proof that Christians have no more of the "fruit of the Spirit" than any other group?
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
"more evidence for Jesus and his deeds"
I doubt this very much.
But please, produce your evidence.
BTW, "modern literature" is totally irrelevant.
Modern statements about ancient events are not evidence.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Modern literature is not irrelevant, it is discussion and debate pertinent to our times and reflects on ancient lit. More and more of which is being uncovered and used for research. In saying that you are saying that the work of archaeologists and historians is irrelevant. So your DOUBT really is irrelevant. Maybe you should actually review some of the research before making the claims.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
"Modern literature is not irrelevant"
It certainly is,
if you are looking for evidence of historicity.
Modern poems about Santa
do not prove his earlier existence.
And I refuse to allow you to put your words in my mouth.
I realize you are a Christian, but let's try to maintain SOME ethics.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
Respond to this video...(and over 24000 all up) some believed to be second generation. These had been circulated through the known world and translated into several languages. The amazing thing here though is that by comparing them we can see how accurately they have been reproduced even across language barriers.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
" how accurately they have been reproduced "
So what?
Lies accurately reproduced are still lies.
Stories about talking animals are still fairy tales,
even if perfectly reproduced.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
Respond to this video... No historian worth his salt would claim Jesus didn't exist, there is simply too much documented evidence from outside the bible let alone within. the Gospel accounts were written within living memory of Jesus? and they agree with each other? I have to ask you where you get your information from regarding the historicity of the bible. We do not have the originals but get this: we do have over 5000 (in one language)
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 "Lots of steeples and crosses"... The church is full of imperfect people. We all know that. Some of those people have still slipped and done terrible things and all are still prone to sinfulness... that is human nature. But not visible by their love. How about the abolishment of slavery - Wilberforce, how about the birth of public education - Did you know that school was started by Sunday school?...
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 "Slavery was abolished by political means" "Education" Yes by Christian Politicians. And I agree with you regarding the middle ages. The Church was in error and I would further that to say it has been many times and is today. If you're arguing that Christians are far from perfect - Amen. But not in the sight of God because of the work of Jesus. That doesn't detract from the great work implemented by people in the church.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
"But not in the sight of God because of the work of Jesus."
We are not trying to convince your god.
His sight is irrelevant.
The scripture states specific criteria and promises
and predictions regarding those who follow Christ
and NONE of them is evident in the church.
Your imaginary evidence works only
for those who share your imagination.
I am talking about REAL evidence for rational beings.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Humanitarian aid started through the Missionary societies CMS etc. and now evident in organisations such as World Vision and a vital part of this work was also domestically started through William Booth the Salvation Army. Central to all of this is the mission to save people for eternity. What did they teach you in bible college? Or weren't you listening? sounds like you missed church history altogether. Humanitarian work and evangelism are still vibrant in today's church...
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy I suppose you wouldn't call these things love. Now! What has atheism ever left for us as a legacy besides communism and 250 million deaths through it's various forms over the last century. The Crusades (led for man's selfish desires) pale in to insignificance by comparison.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
"What has atheism ever left for us as a legacy"
Atheism is not an organization to do things for you.
"Atheism" is the result of Reason encountering Religion.
The Church has historically opposed
scientific knowledge and progress,
excommunicating and even murdering scientists
who dared to teach a spherical earth
or the solar-centric orbit of earth.
Religion is the greatest cause of war and suffering.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Atheism is a belief so by the sounds of it has become your form of faith. Organised atheism which sort to abolish freedom of religion took on a form and became the state. Is that what you seek.
Many of the early scientists, such as Copernicus were Christians
NOW sorry mate I cannot keep responding to your posts I have work to do.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy
"Missionary societies"?
Missionaries have traditionally destroyed cultures,
destroyed languages, sexually abused, enslaved,
murdered, destroyed families, introduced diseases,
imposed foreign rules and laws and dress codes,
stolen valuable heirlooms and cultural symbols,
and sent home self-congratulatory reports
of the "souls saved" and "victories for Jesus."
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@KincumberBoy 2Sam 7:12-16 ????? Are you kidding? Did you read verse 14?
I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men
when he commits iniquity???? I thought Jesus was supposed to be sinless....that he never committed iniquity???
We both know that this passage has nothing to do with Jesus and there is no identification with Jesus.
Ebal the Atheist
ebaltrace 1 year ago
@ebaltrace Yes I have read the passage many times and like many Messianic passages alludes to 2 things. Here it refers to Solomon but draws parallels to Jesus who, tho sinless (2 Cor 5:21) bore the punishment of men and the wrath of God. So yes it is directly related and well accepted by theologians around the globe as such.
KincumberBoy 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 Thank you for agreeing with me.
Ebal the Atheist
ebaltrace 1 year ago
@ebaltrace
Hey, truth is truth.
When you're right you're right.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 I would expect that eventually Science will make the truth so apparent that the Churches would close their doors and go into foreclosure.
In the past the religious establishment intimidated critics. But I think that now the internet is allowing critics to cry out " The Emperor has no clothes"
It's just a matter of time. Keep the pressure up. Cut them no slack. Bring Christianity down.
ebaltrace 1 year ago