Robert McNamara on the Press and Vietnam

[kakompo]

I know where McNamara deserves to be - International Court of Justice in the Netherlands. That's where war criminals are.

[dontchastop]

@kakompo He's dead; Kissinger is still alive. Good luck.

[kakompo]

@dontchastop Yea I know that. 

[rifleshot07]

cheers for the vid a perfect source for my A level coursework.

[dareallink]

he fought zombies, enough said

[davedaddy101]

That Prick!

[guyNbluejeans]

This nightmare of a human being, McNamara, is what happens when citizens put their leaders on pedestals and don't question everything they do.

[hdgaming128]

this guy fights zombies

[LilScony08]

@hdgaming128 IKR in Black ops

[HonestObserver]

Aw, he wasn't so bad. McNamara was the one who convinced Johnson to create FOXHOUND after the Boss died in Operation Snake Eater.

[RuflessRecords]

Starting with Vietnam the liberal media has seen its duty during wars as that of magnifying all negativity towards the democracy involved in the conflict, and generally taking an anti-war stance, although not anti-war against the enemy's actions, but only anti-war against the democracy involved. They believe in selective empathy for the victims of the war, any deaths caused by the democracy's military are given a lot of airtime, the atrocities on the other side mostly ignored.

[bapyou]

@RuflessRecords "with Vietnam the liberal media has seen its duty as that of magnifying all negativity towards the democracy involved in the conflict"

Dear Asshole:

Communism is a system of economics, not politics. With true communism, democracy increases. Look at the neighborhood councils in Cuba.

"any deaths caused by the [US] military are given a lot of airtime, the atrocities on the other side mostly ignored."

In Iraq it's the opposite: the entire focus is US casualties.

[RuflessRecords]

@bapyou no, communism requires mass murder, violence and repression for 2 reasons. A) the current owners of farms, factories, banks etc; will not all voluntarily give up their property and so must be forced to in order to institute allegedly proletarian control of the economy and B) nearly all communists and far leftwingers are filled with hatred and seething rage against people who've succeeded in life and will use power to get gruesome revenge against their enemies, real or imagined.

[RuflessRecords]

@bapyou as far as Iraq, the liberal media did hype US casualties as an effort to beat down any support for the war at home.

When it came to deliberate murders of civlians and atrocities, nearly all of which were committed by the people we fought, the media instead hyped up flyspecks like Abu Ghraib. The naked pyramids of terrorists there got more focus than tens of thousands beheaded, blown up in funerals, pet markets, job lines or restaurants, or otherwise murdered by terrorist groups.

[mikepalomino]

Perhaps what he should have said is "you cannot win a civil war with outside troops [ ... when the defenders are plagued by corruption, poor training, incompetent leadership and suffer from poor morale. " ]

The South Vietnamese were all those things and more.

To fit with your analogy, The French would not only have helped the American colonists during the war, but would have ended up fighting most of the battles for the Americans. Under such a scenario, the British would have likely won

[p3n15eater]

But McNamara wasn't a neocon.

[thatgirlintokyo]

typo..inexcusable.

[thatgirlintokyo]

so you are self proclaiming intellectual. won't you try pseudo intellectual?

mcnamara was one of the principle factor, key architects of the vietnam war/the second indochina war/the american war, which killed about 4 million vietnamese and cambodians and laotians and 58,000 american soldiers, correct?

it was horrific, it was brutal, it was pure hell for those asians, also it was needleless. to me dehumanized mindset of yours is unexcusable. take care.

[p3n15eater]

Intellectual? No. I admire intellectualism in a "civilized" debate, but that isn't a title I'd care to hold. Vietnam was a civil war. It began in 1954, while America joined the war in 1965. The worst atrociies of the war were committed in 1975, perpetrated by the Communists after America left. We didn't start it. Incorrect. Ah. I see. You sympathize for those of your own race. I see. Ah, well. It's inhumane to wish the oppression of Communism on South Vietnam. They suffer under it even today.

[proadmin1]

Nor do I wish to implicate that my intent here is to promote some "happy" version of the neoconservative intellectual cancer that is so profligate in our current political agenda, merely I suggest that our interests as a superpower, can generally be accomplished with ALOT less bloodshed & in a complementary fashion rather than the "white devil" fashion seen in US economic hegemony in many other countries - particularly in the Americas, Middle East to a lesser extent Africa and SE Asia.

[p3n15eater]

Though I am no neoconservative, I oftentimes find myself agreeing with them as an alternative to the leftist world view, which is based on appeasement and worrying about what the world thinks of us. Our economic policy would be flawless if it weren't for our political involvement in our areas in economic interest (e.g. the Middle East, Central America and Western Europe). However, in SE Asia, we are well-liked, despite the war, and in Africa, no man is more popular than George W. Bush.

[jfiles000000]

@p3n15eater The Vietnam war started in 1946 in N. Vietnam against colonial france.Uncle ho's small forces did hit and run tactics to confuse french forces and defeated them soundly at diem bien phu. In 1954 Vietnam was seperated at the 17th parallel dividing the country.S.Vietnam and goverment would now be back by U.S interests.By the early 60's north Vietnam was setting up an offensive to attack S.Vietnam when U'S sent more advisors from 7,500 to 16,000 to help S.Vietnam fight them.

[jfiles000000]

@p3n15eater Communism is a brainwashing term.With the exception of Cuba,Myramar and Laos most other countries are socialistic in different degrees.In America we have social security.In Britian and Sweden the goverment owns the airline.Obama's health care back by the goverment is socialistic.

[vendetta007mike]

This man is definitely going to burn in hell and also his voice is gay.

[Anett7373]

Why any reverance at all ? just because hes dead we cannot look at the truth squarely? For goodness sakes he lived a long long life- most of us don't get 93 years, he lived about four of five lifetimes if you use all those dead american gis he sent off to a senseless war as a gauge - and here he is having press genuflect to him as he explains his strategy! We are all sick who do not condemn support of this ill twisted man and his policy which he never admits were in error

[p3n15eater]

McNamara did live far too long for nature's intentions, I agree. The war wasn't "senseless". I challenge you to name one way SPECIFICALLY in which it was senseless. His mistake was kowtowing to the press and calling his strategy a "mistake". First off, it wasn't entirely HIS strategy, and second, it was no mistake. Twisted? Was he "twisted" when he condemned nuclear war? Or when he led the world to new economic heights in the 1970's as the President of the World Bank?

[thatgirlintokyo]

there are flaws in your argument. also to hell with your sentimentalism.

learn to take it like a man. stop feeling so sorry. it is a most unmannerly.

thank heaven for his death.

[p3n15eater]

Ouch. No sentimentalism there, just an attempt at politeness/intellectualism. My apology was not made out of sentiment, rather an attempt to return to a more level-headed discussion. Screaming matches are always distatsteful, particularly in politics. Alot of people nowadays see any war as simply evil and destructive. I don't entirely disagree. What I do disagree with are personal attacks on a DEAD man who had so little to do with the beginning of the Vietnam War.

[proadmin1]

I think this is not quite the case. While Mr. Mc Namara was not part of the Eisenhower administration (under which the first "advisers" were sent in cooperation with the French colonial power, it's very fair to say that under Kennedy there certainly was the prospect of de-escalation which Mc Namara COULD have affected, but under Johnson you have more of that Texas view of the world which was somewhat less flexible view that we were not wrong in our original intent and should not change.

[p3n15eater]

@ proadmin1- Though I will concede that McNamara did have something to do with the planning of the Vietnam War, I would disagree that the war was the result of ignorance. Vietnam was a Vietnamese war, one which America interfered in for obvious political reasons. Some would call it an illegal war. What war is legal? We did what we thought was correct, and I would like to issue another challenge; to name one way in which America's presence in South Vietnam was less desirable than North Vietnam's.

[proadmin1]

I don't mean to characterize the Communist system as being in some way acceptable, as for all the various faults of capitalism, communism has been the single largest oppressor of freedom in human history - bar none.

When I suggest it was ignorance it is for the very same reason Mc Namara himself later in life states, firstly the deception at the Gulf of Tonkin and secondly for completely misunderstanding the motivations and underlying intentions of the Viet Namese people themselves.

[p3n15eater]

Well-worded. A preferable and more intelligent response than any I've heard so far.

[proadmin1]

Nor do I mean to suggest that the US had "no business" or that our presense was in some way endemically unacceptable to the Viet Namese or any other people. What we absolutely suck at - as a nation - is effective using soft-power - how do we instill the soft-values that are proven valuable while still pursuing any national interest needs we might otherwise have, in this - the US has sometimes the best of intentions but abysmal execution when we fail to consider local values, culture & history.

[p3n15eater]

However, I think our problem is that we use "soft-power" and "hard-power" at inopportune times. We were too soft on the North Vietnamese, but too hard on the South Vietnamese insurgents. In the words of President John F. Kennedy on Vietnam: "The best weapon we could use in this conflict would be a knife, the worst a bomb."

[jfiles000000]

@p3n15eater "result of ignorance" Early 1954 the French goverment ask the U.S for assitance.A french representive I forgot his name visited Ike,John Foster Dulles and Admiral radford about possbly dropping a nuclear bomb in the fortification around DiemBienPhu.Ike ruled against it.But the U.S study did conclude that fighting the type of war the french fought that America would fight a decade later in jungle terrain was unwinnable unless you drop a nuclear bomb.

[p3n15eater]

However, despite all of my rude and, admittedly, plebeian comments, and my undoubted obsession over this topic over the past few weeks, I'd like to make a brief apology. I was out of line to use such language and insult anyone over what should be a civilized debate. However, civilized people (which you all undoubtedly claim to be) do not so viciously and vehemently attack a dead man. Although my own comments leave a bad taste in my mouth, others I have seen make me sick to my stomach.

[unclest1nky]

I found the story on therealnews tod moc.

oops I'm dyslexic. reverse the last 2 words in the last sentence

[unclest1nky]

Paul Jay talks to Garth Porter about former Secy. of Def., Robert McNamara. Porter says that documents he uncovered from the L. B. J. library demonstrate that McNamara deceived LBJ over the Gulf of Tonkin incident. In spite of dubious reports that U.S. Navy ships were attacked by North Vietnamese fleet, McNamara went ahead with drafting the strike order for the retaliation that night and actually sent that strike order without having consulted further with President Johnson about the situation.

[bendutta2008]

I dont see why people blame him, I think the mistake of Vietnam was solely because Kennedy died and Johnson completely fuck'ed it all up. But then again, Johnson was really a filler in VP just like Cheney.

You want to blame somebody, blame Lee Harvey Oswald.

[nappyg1]

his faith should have been a bullet to his head

[adoreMomus]

how many north vietnamese POW us ever held? does anyone know?

[thatgirlintokyo]

thank heaven for his death.

[p3n15eater]

He gave more up for freedom than you ever did, you ungrateful bitch.

[FuckAllConservatives]

McNaMara was evil. May he burn forever in the hottest fires of hell.

[imaginepeace63]

I thought Kissenger was the archtect of vietnam

[taterfrog]

Dear Bob, Go to hell, go straight to hell, do not pass goal, do not collect $200 you sorry ass SOB Nam Vet

[DarthFrankus]

If you were in Mcnamaras position could you have done better winning the war? Doubt it.

[p3n15eater]

I will disregard your ignorance this once, out of respect for your service.

[EnhancementSmoker]

wrong place, wrong tactics...

obviously sounds familiar...

but this clip dosent also tell the part about how they lied us into that war too...

[1kel40b]

he burns in hell

[partweed]

RIP? Not likely,

[nonplayerzealot4]

RIP, Robert.

[captatnonmuscas]

Howell Raines, from the NYT wrote once: Surely he must in every quiet and prosperous moment hear the ceaseless whispers of those poor boys in the infantry, dying in the tall grass, platoon by platoon, for no purpose. What he took from them cannot be repaid by prime-time apology and stale tears, three decades late.

[jereuter01]

See his book: "In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam". It's obvious that Bush II, Cheney, Wolfowitz and the other foaming at the mouth neocons never read it. Amazing how American foreign policy makers commit the same mistakes over and over again. Recognition of Israel in 1948 is one we will never be able to correct.

[hyperview2006]

I don't agree with every assertion you make, but I applaud your tone.

[maxine2win]

ditto on jereuter01's post

why does the USA keep doing dumb things

maybe too many ideolouges and not enough pragmatic people

re McNamara: they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions

[proadmin1]

What I find disturbing about the current crop of neocons is the depth of their ideological impairment. I think is bears remembering that in many cases the first loyalty isn't towards the US, and that is repeatedly demonstrated. So it's not that they haven't read Mc Namara or Le May or others, they simply feel themselves exceptional and the point here is that they are utterly unconcerned about the consequences of their actions upon the US.

Simply that they achieved a military/political goal.

[p3n15eater]

Well, I suppose that's a point of contention between neocons and neolibs, and ultimately, the ones who will always lose are us moderates.

[TheInfamous302]

This man is the architect of the Vietnam War, the man who is responsible for the deaths of 58 000 American kids. I hope he burns in hell

[unclest1nky]

I Agree!!  I tried to comment as well but "IT" wouldn't let me... Wow free speech!

[unclest1nky]

I meant I agree with "TheInfamous302" and his comment.

[unclest1nky]

I was trying to be as brief as possible.. (regarding TheInfamous302's comment)I am very saddened by all the deaths, in all the countries, that this evil country (u.s.a.) has caused.

[p3n15eater]

I hear "evil" whenever I hear liberals and Muslims talk about the US, but what if we had left the world to the Nazis? Or the Communists? You and everyone like you, with your stupid, intolerant, banal whinings that you call "free speech" would have been tortured to death a long time ago, you pathetic scumbag.

[joneselius]

That's three in a row now.

Your' insults REALLY reflect who you are as a person. McNamara was NOT a champion of freedom, nor was he a great man.

Champions of freedom don't fight wars, they end them through peace and love. Fighting isn't a free action, it's an action brought forth through both fear and misunderstanding. Maybe you should count the amount of sons daughters and children's lives of POLITICIANS that are lost in war, I'll count them, ON ONE HAND.

[p3n15eater]

I'll keep this short so you'll understand. We didn't wake up one morning and decide to fight a war just for the fun of it. The North Vietnamese were led by oppressionistic Communists, who killed free thinkers and imprisoned any who questioned the way they ran the country. Now, we asked nicely for them to stop for eight years, but unfortunately, they didn't go for that, so yeah, we fought them. Misunderstanding? We fought them BECAUSE we understood what they had planned.

[thatgirlintokyo]

@p3n15eater..why did u write "he gave more up for freedom than u ever did. u ungrateful bitch". to me for? i wasnt talking to you or anyone when i posted "thanks heaven for his death".

*sigh* you have some deep issues mister ;)XD

[p3n15eater]

Ok... don't act like you were just innocently minding your own business. Don't go thanking heaven for people's deaths, particularly people you understand nothing about. Bob McNamara was the world's only politician campaigning for complete nuclear disarmament in the Cold War. Your name suggests you are from Japan. Remember that one time when America nuked Japan? That wasn't fun for anyone, especially not the Japanese. The war in Vietnam (I believe) was justified. No nuclear war ever could be.

[jfiles000000]

@p3n15eater Than why didn't the U.S attack china and the USSR if the U.S wanted to save people from oppression?.I don't bye it.It was ego power and money.Why did LBJ quit in 1968?Did the media force him out after tet or was it the media that realized Amreica couldnot win in Vietnam?

[mac3805]

This is just immature, uneducated banter

[hyperview2006]

Do you have any concern for the Vietnamese who died in the war?

[ls1z28chris]

This vitriol is insane. Sure, I was born in 1983, long after Vietnam and to parents who were too young to have served in that war in the first place. But I don't get it.

Sure, McNamara was complicit in what happened. He deserves condemnation. If I knew someone killed in Vietnam, I'd be just as pissed. But at the end of the day, the war would have happened without him. Rather than cursing his name for the mistakes he made, doing what he did: Learning from those mistakes.

[90210lalaland]

I hope when you get to HELL (AND YOU WILL) that it will be a PEPETUAL DROP OF BURNING NAPALM ON YOUR EVIL BODY YOU BASTARD ! ROT IN HELL and all those involved in the Napalming or invasion of Vietnam!

[joneselius]

And suddenly you sound like him.

Hatred is a mirror, and an ugly mirror it is. Don't hate people, forgive them, for they not what they do (to quote a book).

Or just leave him dead. Don't do him credence by speaking his name. He's dead, that's the best thing about life, evil people die too.

[p3n15eater]

Evil? This is a man who halted the tide of Communism, a man who defended freedom and justice to his deathbed, a man who advocated nuclear disarmament more than any before him, and you call him evil? Obviously, you've never seen evil before. So go to a third-world country and take a good look at their leadership before you go off and insult a champion of truth and liberty like Robert McNamara, you stupid fuck.

[joneselius]

Your name suggests more than I need to know.

Your insults are useless, they only remind me of the state of the collective human separation. A species divided falls.

[p3n15eater]

On the subject of "my" name: This is a friend's account, and his sense of humour is... strange....

On the subject of insults: I only insult those disgusting enough to insult a dead man. You all accept whatever some proffessor or "political analyst" tells you, but the only "architects" of the Vietnam War were Ho Chi Minh, Vu Nguyen Giap, and perhaps, ironically, Charles de Gaulle.

"Collective Human Separation". Hmmmm. A species divided does not fall. Ever heard of civilization? That worked.

[jfiles000000]

@p3n15eater Was it worth the lives of 58,000 young americans fighting in another part of the world?Today America trades and does business with Vietnam. Both goverments have good relations.But as eugene debs says the"poor fight the rich man's battles".

[Wildkkat1]

What about just saying you and LBJ blew 58,000+ Amercan lives for nothing, or 158,000 to Agent Orange, 315,000 Vietnamese civilians. It is people like you is why other countries hate us!

[nonplayerzealot4]

It's easy extracting decisions made during the Cold War and examining them under today's hindsight.

[dddiegopan]

Yo' Bob, thats just 2 little 2 late.

[ShortyPayne]

I've seen plenty of interviews with McNamara, and to be honest, I wish more people would be so "energetic" and "sharp" in their 80s and 90s. RIP

[breezeman199]

Rot in hell.

[bdyan1]

RIP Sir

[benbur69]

Hindsight...

[CHOZENProductions]

They all apologize after the fact. Once the mental bullet-proof armor of the office drops away and they have to begin thinking as an ordinary person once again. Once remorse and humanity return.

Except for Cheney.