The Angry Song

[echosacra]

your fingers are so graceful

[XxFullOfCheersxX]

oh right....

[LaptopNewbie]

How passionate and catchy.

[batttyb0y]

very very gud

[MyOneAmazingUsername]

dude..........i fuckin LOVE YOU! XD

[MAYBEYBABY]

this made me laugh so muchhh hahahahahahaa

[georgie6699]

I find funny to see you playing such music for the YOUTUBE audience, when you deserve to be standing on a stage before an infinite crowd. You are as gifted as Phil Collins or Dave Matthews, just to mention a couple and with no comparison intended. I truly recomend everyone to listen to all of your songs so they'll know what I am talking about. It is an honour sir.

[dndn1011]

@georgie6699 Wow, what can I say to a comment like that? Thanks just does not seem to cut it :) Thanks anyway.

[7bridesfor7brothers]

I like the way you communicate. It was cool to see the passion in your face and eyes. I agree with you about haters and trolls. There are so many beautiful people on youtube. It's terribe to think that hate has stopped some of them from posting.

[yeahwotevaman]

Fucking awesome song! Great playing, I love your use of the harmonics. Yep, haters and trolls are a source of amusement for some, pain in the arse for others, and for thin-skinned people they can be a damn liability.

[dndn1011]

Thank you!

[fuzzyargy]

Dino, damn it i feel like draggin out my 12 string now!

Love your fret work. Awesome stuff.

[dndn1011]

go get it :) A guitar can be a wonderful friend, but the friendship is best not neglected :)

[EstebanChurches]

I like your funky "new" song! I enjoy listening to your songs. They are very witty. Six stars! :-)

[allshookup77]

Excellent song and performance! ... FrAnK (5*****)

[dndn1011]

What use is it to say to someone in that situation: "there is nothing you can do it is hopeless, you are a machine and part of a machine and you cannot change antyhing". Is that going to help? The world is changed by those who look at the rules imposed on them by others and with courage decide to not accept them. The consequences are often severe. There is great risk. But that is how progress is made. Because of a choice. Are you a victim of a caste system? Fight your own battles.

[Tadek59]

Interesting video and fantastic song !!!

Great voice and excellent sound !!!

5*****

[dndn1011]

Thanks Tadek!

[minomeshank]

i'm suggesting that it's too simplistic to say that you should respect peoples beliefs.

beliefs can be extremely harmful. beliefs are actions right?

so to say you should respect all beliefs is to say you should allow ALL behaviours... which is fucking insane.

by the way, i'm smiling as i write this, i don't hate you, if anything my perceived hatred and anger is more frustration. i'm just tired of hearing cliches.

i'll check out your wiki now

[minomeshank]

the link doesn't work

[dndn1011]

Sorry I fixed it now.

[minomeshank]

sorry dino, i've looked at it, i don't like the idea. i use youtube for a reason. i'm here to talk in a public forum. i'm not a troll or a hater. i'm here to talk, which is why i ask questions. being seen generally as nothing more than a hater i have to protect myself by staying as public as possible. that way i can't be accused of saying something i didn't.

i try to avoid using the email here too.

my questions are there & i feel they are relevant. the rest is just my eccentricity i suppose.

[2bsirius]

I've watched the exchange you and dndn1011 have been having. I'm not looking for an argument with you, but I am curious. Dndn1011 was speaking of me in the video which prompted the your anger, and I guess I wonder if it was something I said that you thought was so ridiculous you felt I SHOULD be silenced in some way? Maybe if you got back to the specifics of your problem, I could understand where the friction between the two of you comes from. Again, I'm curious. I don't understand this. Peace

[minomeshank]

it had nothing to do with you in the sense that i was reacting to certain views that i think dino was expressing...

on the other hand i would say that you and dino share a common view that as a key part of your identities.

the belief in free will.

i don't think it's a coincidence that so many "happy" people share this belief, i also don't think it's a coincidence that these "happy" people also have pretty comfortable lives.

what do you think the specifics of the problem were?

[2bsirius]

I feel I've intruded into this dialog, and I didn't intend to. As far as my beliefs about determinism and free will, I guess it is one of the things I agree with Daniel Dennett on. "I can make a decision based on my consideration of what matters the most and why...The model that we want to have for free will is of an agent that is autonomous, not in some metaphysical sense,but in the sense of being able to act on the reasons that matter to the agent. The simplest imaginable thing a brain is for

[2bsirius]

is the generation of expectations of the future." That's Dennett's definition, in part, but, like him, I also think that there can be extreme circumstances in which you don't because of the constraints on you and your actions in the world. SO short answer: Yes, mostly...I do believe in free will.I know you think the world is a determined place...And that's certainly a position held by lots of people. What's the cliche? 'I have to believe in free will. I have not choice.'

[minomeshank]

i don't understand it as an intrusion.

anyne with a view on the subject, whatever that might be, is welcome. as for the free will thing, if you're "choosing" what is best for you then it's not really a choice is it?

don't they say that you're body begins to move before you've even consciously registered what you're going to do?

aside from that, my problem with free will is that it is equated with unconditional love, and i would like to see some evidence of it.

[2bsirius]

Yes, the thing about the body moving before the conscious decision reaches the higher levels of the brain was work done by Libet. This is an interesting video on the subject. Committeereport is a very interesting YouTuber that almost no one watches.

watch?v=7xmPjpk0qB4

Committeereport, the person in the video does these very interesting monologues and no one watches them. Well I do...

I didn't understand your point about free will and unconditional love. Could you say more?

[minomeshank]

this video looks interesting.

to me, free will would mean that you are able to control of your emotions and therefore your actions. if you can do that it means you are capable of loving unconditionally if you choose to.

[dndn1011]

Yes, it is a choice. However actions and emotions are different things. If someone hits me, I might feel anger, but I can choose to not respond in anger. I can choose instead to attempt to understand what happened.

[minomeshank]

anger isn't one thing. it isn't just anger & then you can choose to do something as a reaction to it. the anger itself is in degrees and depending on the degree of your anger you are able to act in certain ways.

how angry you get is realted to how much power you have over the situation. wether or not you can walk away from it. if that's possible it is dictated by circumstances. fight or flight. these responses are limited to your environment.

[dndn1011]

No you are very wrong, I believe. People can control how they react to emotion even the emotions are very strong. And it depends on being able to keep things in perspective far more than what control you can exercise. But I don't think there is any convincing you. I do suggest that you read up on the subject, both sides of the argument.

[minomeshank]

even looking at it from your perspective it stil l isn't convincing.

you can control your reaction. ok. but the ability to do that will have been learned over time, which again means that your environment has placed you in the circumstance where you able to react in that way.

also i think the whole Libet study contradicts what you're saying. you're body is already in action before you consciously "choose" what that action will be.

[dndn1011]

OK you be powerless if you want, it is your choice. No wait, you have no choice ;)

That study does not prove anything other than that the brain is complicated and strange. I think it demonstrates the possibility that conciousness is something that occurs outside of the physical plane of existence, or perhaps even more interesting, does not follow strict linear time.

[minomeshank]

you're not talking about consciousness outside of the physical plain.

you're talking specifically about being able to choose using the conscious mind.

the power of the will.

all you're arguments for free will have been that you can consciously choose to react to emotion in any way you choose.

[dndn1011]

I can't continue this there is no point because you do not understand me, and my attempts to explain seem futile. Sorry.

[minomeshank]

ok, if you feel i'm not in a position to understand i guess i'm inthe worng area.

perhaps i can get into the right area if i ask the right questions...

at any time prior to the post i just made AND the 2 the other posts between me & 2bsirius on Libet earlier, was this concept of free will existing outside the physical plain ever in your mind during our discussions?

if so, did you make mention of it anywhere, and if not, why not?

of course feel free not to answer at all.

[dndn1011]

It is complicated. But the basics are: There are strong arguments that conciousness can not emerge from mathematical formalisms. This would mean a computer as we know it could never be concious. Additionally, a computer as we know can never have free will. However this means that if it is not possible to construct free will and conciousness out of a machine then they cannot be constructed out of physical materials. Which means something beyond the physical plane is required.

[dndn1011]

No beliefs are not the same thing as actions. And I do not say we should respect all beliefs, but that we should respect the right for people to believe what they want to believe. If they use those beliefs to hurt others... that is a different issue, because by hurting others they are not respecting them.

This is why respect is crucial.

[minomeshank]

actions come from beliefs. you percieve something & you act on it.

in the event that someone's beliefs is causing them to harm someone then what?

also isn't that the system we have already?

psychiatrists interfere in the lives of those they feel are doing themselves or others harm due to their beliefs?

psychiatrists don't believe they are being disrespectful or harmful to that person but that may not be the case.

the human condition is that we disagree on what is harmful & what is healthy.

[dndn1011]

Actions come through a choice we make. When we make this choice we should consider the consequenses of our actions on the rights and well being of others. Some people just act on what they believe without regard to the rights and well being of others. Within this group I include haters and trolls on you tube. Is this so hard to understand?

[minomeshank]

it's very easy to understand but that doesn't mean it's correct.

actions come from impulses & drives.

you perceive the environment, wether it be reality or a belief & then you act on what you feel will produce the best result for you.

that's not a choice. all action is a reaction to a perception of the environment. which may be a belief & not reality.

[dndn1011]

Ah! So you are saying that we are all machines without free will? I do not agree with that view, because of practicality. If I were to believe myself to be only a machine with no free will, I would completely disempower myself. I do not consider that a useful thing to do.

[minomeshank]

having tried to be in complete control of my emotions for some time i realised i was doing myself more harm than good. the power/force that i was exerting in the attempt to seperate my emotional reactions from my environment only caused me more pain. once i considered the possibility that the only way to change how i felt was to change my environment i felt much better. also there is more scientific evidence against free will than for it.

infact i'm not sure what evidence there is for free will

[dndn1011]

Do you need evidence? What evidence is there that you exist at all? Do you believe you exist? If you do then you have faith. Control of emotions is a nonsense. We can't control them. We *can* control the effect of them. When someone makes a choice to override emotion, they do so using their free will. Also the best way of changing your environment is to change yourself first.

If you do not believe in free will, you make yourself helpless

[minomeshank]

playing a philosophical game i may be able to come to the conclusion that i can't prove i exist, but playing that game isn't relevant to human relationships. the fact that i feel sensations isn't a matter of faith, they may be reactions to faith but that is as close as faith comes to them. even if i wanted to question my senses it wouldn't be possible to ever arrive at the conclusion that they are illsuions as every thought is a sensation, every thought is a feeling. it can't deny itself.

[minomeshank]

it can try, and play lots of little games & delude itself but in the end it is always there as it is the one that is looking for somewhere else. you don't just choose to behave in this way or that way when you're using an emotion.

it's just the program attempting to follow a different instruction. it's machiavellian, "i didn't get what i want by doing that so now i'll try this instead"

you can't change yourself. you are yourself. something has to happen to you for you to change

[dndn1011]

So you believe you do not have free will and I believe that I do. What more is there to say?

[minomeshank]

lol, how about finding out which one is true?!

this is why i reacted to your video. you're talking like you can just agree to disagree on this! you can't! by saying there is free will you're saying that people only have themselves to blame for being unhappy, which is complete bullshit. we're products of environment & anyone who doesn't believe that sees no need to change the system. which is why those at the bottom are pissed at those with the power to actually do something but don't.

[dndn1011]

So, you choose to believe that everything that happens to you is because of events outside of your control, whereas I believe that I am a product of my own free will, and ultimately more in charge of my own fate than not. Realistically which tool for living is more useful?

Perhaps you would be suprised at how much you really are in control of your own existence. You can't change everything, but there is plenty that you can, if you choose to. You could at least open you heart to the possibility

[minomeshank]

like i said, i don't believe it's a coicidence that those who are happy also live more comfortable lives & therefore have more freedom. they're not stuck with people 24/7 & the people they are stuck with aren't so wound up because they don't have the entire system bearing down on them.

try saying you've got free will to feel what you want & alter your surroundings when you live in a caste system & have been born as an "untouchable"

[2bsirius]

If we were all in the same place, I'd take you two to a pub, buy you a couple of drinks and let you thrash this out while facing each other. Yes, it would be worth footing the drinks bill to be able to watch it in person. Minomeshank, I know you're likely to think that that is a very superficial thing to say, but it's my theory that too many exchanges become too abstract when people are trying to communicate in this way and not seeing the ways in which the other person responds face-to-face.

[dndn1011]

Seriously, it would be great to have face to face discussions. Something to propose to youtube. It is technically quite possible.

[minomeshank]

yeah i see it as superficial. i'm interested in comparing facts & ideas, you can't just post a link to a scietific study in a pub. which is one of the reasons i pulled away from having a social life. also personal confidence/popularity always dominates in the end.

the one who looks the most insecure is always judged to be the loser in the debate.

all that comes through in those iteractions is who has the greater social standing.

[2bsirius]

OK...I concede on the superficial claim. Yes, it probably is....BUT the point is that in a pub or at least face-to-face your exchanges would become a discussion rather than a debate. It may, of course, be the way my female brain works. I keep reading what you both have posted, and thinking that you don't seem to be giving a good look at your points of agreement or [and this will get me into trouble] or fairly acknowledge the points the other person is making. A third party might point tht out.

[minomeshank]

discussion/debate, i don't see the difference.

i have my view of the world & in that view there are questions to be asked. when i see other views that aren't asking the same questions i have to ask why, have they answered the question or have they just not taken it into account?

in my case i am offering ideas & i am also receiving ideas from dino. although text isn't perfect i'm happy to use it to the best of my ability at the moment. which i am aware is below average

[minomeshank]

i also see you offering ideas both in your comments & videos & i don't think the video portion adds anything to the ideas although i find it does support my intuition about the person behind my perception of the ideas presented in text.

in otherwords your happy with your role in society, you feel it gives you a certain amount of power & that is directly related to your perceived levelf of psychological & physical freedom. leading to less stress & higher levels of serotonin/happiness

[minomeshank]

so, in the hope that i have made my point clear about the ideas being all that matters FOR THE MOMENT & that they are being expressed to the best of my ability in text, links & videos from youtube, the internet & other sources...

feel free to jump in & present yor ideas/perceptions on the relationship you see here.

personally i feel life is fading far too quickly to waste time with superficial pleasantries such as asking wether or not it's ok for you to be included in the debate/discussion.

[2bsirius]

You are so right about superficial pleasantries being a waste of time. I thought maybe, you two might coming to a point in your exchanges in which you might ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND each other, if so, then I didn't want to interrupt that. It seemed to me,as a passive reader of your exchanges, that you were both putting a lot of energy into it, and sometimes anything that stops that flow acts as a brake on it. That's why I asked.

[2bsirius]

A discussion doesn't have a winner. A debate does. And yes there are some necessary limitations to text exchanges...Even though they are valuable, they are by their nature limited.

[minomeshank]

well i do my best to participate in discussion.

i don't ask questions for no reason, i'm looking to learn. and should that discussion become a debate, as long as the opposing party is right i don't think i have any problem with accepting them as the winner on that particular matter.

i don't have a fixed conclusion on life. i move betwen extremes. some may call it bipolar, schizophrenia, manic depression or whatever other distinctions they make about the same thing. uncertainty.

[minomeshank]

text is limited on it's own, words are limited on their own, as is body language & tone of voice. everything is limited outside of context.

metting someone and having a discussion can also be limited even including all those things as we don't perceive the entire context. we don't know all things so rather than put myself in a position where the dominant factor is confidence/looks i'd rather try & understand EXACTLY how words are limited so that i am abe to use them with confidence socially