Evolution and God's Character

[AndreisEntaro]

Stop parroting creationist arguments they have been considered over and over again and refuted over and over again.

If you don't accept the refutations you need to explain why and point out the fallacies in those refutations.

Rather than just parroting the arguments, try coming up with some of your own.

I think you will find that a worthwhile exercise after studying up on philosophy, particularly logic and reasoning. Of course, you will have to start with the possibility that you are wrong.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

@AndreisEntaro Could you provide me evidence that God could not exist but do not parrot the evolution sites or evolution "science"books. Please come up with your own ideas - I mean you must have some astounding eveidnce that you can confidently reject any concept of Him. BTW are your reasons your own or have you been convincde by what other people have told you? Genuinely interested.

[TheLostGuitarist]

millions of reactions occur every day but lets just say its 1,000,000. so 1,000,000 x 4.2 billion 8 365 days a year * 3^21 planets in the universe = chances are you will form a protein somewhere along the line

now consider the fact that RNA's existence increases those odds tremendously (RNA is what makes protein if you didn't know) and you have a near CERTAINTY that you will form proteins...

[TheLostGuitarist]

too bad your little calculation of probability doesn't take into account RNA. The probability of a protein coming into existence from RNA is much higher.

And we've already demonstrated last year that RNA can be synthesized spontaneously without manipulation....bet you didn't know that....

RNA makes proteins...

man are you one sorry uneducated fool...

also lets say it was 10 to the power of 161. The earth has been around for 4.2 billion years....

[Atheistx82]

I'm sorry that you can't reconcile the science with your faith, but many Christians can.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Science and faith in God. I believe in God and I believe in science. I believe God is the author and creator of science. No problem.

You, not me , has the problem of reconciling science and God.

I question the statement of those who claim to be Christians who agree with evolutionists. Do they not know that in the first verse of the first chapter of the first book of the Bible, God (their apparent saviour and Lord) declares Who He is and what He did and they know it is impossible for Him to lie?

[Valmarith]

Evolution is science, it has overwhelming evidence, it's evidenced in the clear morphological continuity of our fossil record, the cross confirming dating methods, the morphological similarities between related species, the overlapping DNA of related species, the overlapping Mutations and ERV markers in related species, fused chromosomes, it's attested by paleontology, geology, biology, and genetics. Hundreds of millions of Christians have no problem reconciling this with their faith.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

@Valmarith Evolution is scientism not science. Its speculation. It cannot be tested in a l;aboratory. Only what is here today can be tested, not what supposedly happened in the past.. Its based on the premis that there is no God and everything happened by chance. There is not fossil record to back up evolution. There is only a micro but no macro fossil record. You should know better than that. And oh btw, there are not hundreds of millions of christians who beleive that evolution is genesis.

[Valmarith]

There are hundreds of millions of Christians who accept evolution, most Christians accept genesis as allegory not as literal truth. If you want to believe you were literally created out of dirt and that women was created out of a rib and that light was created before the sun and all the stars were created with their light inbound and all of the ill in the world comes from a magic fruit and a talking serpent and that all of the dinosaurs drowned in some flood go ahead, but don't attack science.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, it is quite typical of those who beleive that everything came from nothing aka evolution, to make broad, sweeping and undocumented and unproven statements to back up their own claims they have not tested themselves but read in books.

Do you not think it possible that we today are living in our own bronze age, limited in knowledge and understanding of our surroundings and that future generations will discover that science does, after all, lead man to God?

[Valmarith]

Brother hundreds of millions of Christians accept evolution and have no difficulty with it in their faith. They do not confine god to a literal doctrinal interpretation of a man made genesis story of unknown authorship originally passed down by oral legends and related to other Levant myths.

I'm sure we are living in our own bronze age and two thousand years from now people may looks back on us and think of what fools we've been, but I doubt it will mean they will have found YOUR god if any.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, there you go again with the hundreds of millions of Christians support evolution....broad unsupported statements as if fact....where is your source of this information so I can look it up?

[Valmarith]

Wiki "level of support for evolution". 58% of Catholics accept it and so do 51% of mainland protestants. Just tally the world population, the percentage of christians, and subtract from that the percentage who accept evolution.

It's not a broad unsupported assumption, maybe in your church you don't know many who accept evolution but your church does not represent Christians world wide.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Catholics? That religion worships and prays to Mary in complete contradiction to the Bible. Not everyone who claims to be Christian, is. Even Jesus said, MANY will come to Me on that day (judgement day) and I will say to them, get away from Me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you.

I have had the privelege of meeting the Queen on two occasions and what struck me was that unless she invited me, there was NO way I could have entered the palace. It was not enough that I knew or liked her.

[Valmarith]

You don't get to define Christian. They believe in Jesus as their savior, they simply have the doctrine of intercession. You can ignore them if you like 51% of protestants is still hundreds of millions.

You've started the No True Christian Fallacy as I knew you would, be careful when you point and deny your brothers their faith for many more will do the same to you, and they will be just as sure as you are and believe just as strongly as you.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

The Bible teaches and warns beleivers of the dangers of being decieved by alternate gospels and many will be. Tthere were people called Bereans who checked everything that was taught to make sure it lined up and was true. Because certain religions are big and popular does not make them right. My eternal future is important to me so I want to make sure I check everything as I move forward. My guide is the Word of God ONLY. There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death.

[Valmarith]

The No True Christian Fallacy again. For all you know you're one of the decieved. Fact is you Christians can't agree on even the most basic points of doctrine yet you all think you're right.

Was Jesus Yahweh incarnate? Was he the Son of Yahweh? Was he Both? Are you Pre-Tribulation, No-Tribulation, or Post-Tribulation. Is heaven in the clouds, is it being with Yahweh, or will the earth one day become heaven. Can you lose your salvation or is it once saved always saved? You see what I'm saying?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

I can see what you are saying. The first priority is to see what jesus said and taught with regards to personal sin, salvation, judgement, heaven and hell....the rest is irrelevant unless those are addressed first. It was the primary reason why Jesus died on the cross.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

I can define Christianity by what is taught in the bible. Anything else that is added or taken away from it, adds or takes away what the gospel actually teaches making it "another" gospel. Christians are "followers of Christ", not religions. Jesus said, not everyone who calles Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is why I treat everything as jesus said, "let every man be a liar and let God be true" and that even applies to popular religions and faith movements. I trust God's word

[Valmarith]

The Bible never says anything about Christianity.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Please elaborate your comment

[Valmarith]

Quite simply, the Bible you have didn't even exist at the time Jesus is supposed to exist, much of it actually came down to a vote, and the Bible never even mentions the word Christian or Christianity. Our modern dictionaries define a Christian as someone believes in Jesus Christ, so in that sense Christians were in the Bible and the Bible does teach that, but the convolute doctrines and dogmas of the church are built upon what is there.

The veneration of the cross trusting a preacher man ect

[BrotherOfTheSon]

The Old testament had been established for years at that time. Jesus referred to it and its teachings to validate Who He was and claimed to be. The Old Testament is the Old Covenant that God made with them and Jesus said He was going to make a New and better one (even the old covenant is full of the coming of the Messiah). Every thing Jesus and His disciples then did was faithfully recorded and the Old and New Covenant were placed beside one another to form the Bible (collection of books)

[BrotherOfTheSon]

The Bible talks of people being called Christians. For example

Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28, 1 Peter4:16

[Valmarith]

Ah I suppose I was mistaken, I had heard Christians make the argument before, and I typed the word Christian into Bible Gateway before but it wasn't in an english translation, there may be slight differences in the spelling as translated into Norwegian.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Fair enough.

[Valmarith]

Ah I thought it might come up. I typed in Christen and it found the passages in acts you mentioned. I think that's Danish.

[Valmarith]

I misspoke, Kristne came up not Christen. Christen is what I expected to find the first time.

[Valmarith]

If you believe in a literal 6 day creation and take the stories in Genesis 100% literally I can understand why you can't reconcile your faith with the science. Hundreds of Millions of Christians accept Genesis as allegory and metaphor, it's not required to be 100% accurate to justify belief in God or Jesus.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

@Valmarith I believe in God and His word. Its not blind faith but revelation. Ever heard the the song Amazing Grace - Once I was blind but now I see.... thats exactly what happened to me. Its something very difficult to explain - like trying to explain light to a man born blind.

[Valmarith]

Fantastic, now how do you know that Genesis is word for word from the mouth of your god and that it's not allagory or metaphore?

Millions of Christians can say the same thing you just said and they don't have difficulty reconciling their faith with the overwhelming evidence for evolution. Most Christians accept evolution as a method of creation, but if you want to believe you were literally made out of dirt and women were literally made out of a rib go ahead.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, science is the search for truth. We only know in part, we only see in part, we only experience in part...that is why its intellectual arrogance to assume that since we only know in part we can deduce emphatically as if we know everything, that God does not exist. Your problem is you cannot comprehend how rational people can buy into an irrational concoction of wishful-thinking, make believe mythology and legend. The answer is simple, Jesus Christ revealed Himself to us and entered our lives

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Even if 10 billion people claim evolution is true, if they are blind they cannot make sight possible - just more blindness. The Bible says let EVERY man be a liar and let God be true. The reason God is remote to you is that although He is closer to you than your breath you are so UNLIKE Him. You have nothing in common with Him.Like an ape and an angel in a room staring at one another, so unlike one another. Unless you are born again into His likeness your future destination when you die is hell

[Valmarith]

Brother you can believe that adam was literally created out of dirt and that eve was literally created out of a rib and that they were perfect yet somehow imperfect enough to be tricked by a talking serpent and all that stuff if you want. If you want to believe that a Horse and a Zebra were specially created as two seperate things, I'm not trying to stop you, but evolution does not conflict with Christianity it only conflicts with your particular doctrine regarding the Bible.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, evolution (the one that says everything comes from nothing and choatically produced everything that has a remarkable intelligent design) is fundamentaly different to creation. Why? Because it is a new religion that wants to be the god of this world and aims to remove the God of the Bible from the earth by trying to explain Him away. Its idolatry, science not God must be worshipped. Ancients carved figures out of wood and stone to worship. Modern man does the same, except its called science.

[Valmarith]

Brother, you have demonstrated either that your are ignorant to what Evolution is or that you are willfully lying to misrepresent it. Maybe you should study evolution from a source not funded by the Discovery Institute, it says nothing of the sort. Not even abiogenesis suggests something from nothing, and abiogenesis is neither the same field nor is it required for evolution to run it's course. The only case of idolatry here is your worship of a book, and possibly a man according to Judaism.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, why cannot people admit they do not know everything? If we say God does not exist then we say that we know all things, been everywhere and can emphatically declare He does not exist. Is that true about yourself? Time means nothing. If the bible was written over thousands of years, time does not diminish its truths or its impact - it might as well have been written yesterday. Is it right to deny the value of your life you have lived and experienced because it happened in the past?

[Valmarith]

Brother, the way you claim to know that a god exists and that out of all the thousands of gods that people believe in your god is the right one, and out of all of the religions centered around your god, each with countless divisions (3000 denominations of Christianity alone), that you happen to have the right set of doctrines and happen to know the mind of "God"?

I don't presume to know everything, but I accept overwhelming physical evidence. From where I sit, gods are unknown and unknowable.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val,one more thing. I understand why its possible for you to dismiss God or speak about Him dismissively. Its because you do not know Who He is. I dont know you but if I got to know you, your thoughts, your views, your characteristics, your experiences in life I would find it difficult to be so judgemental and dismissive of you. Is that not so? Why dont you HONESTLY RESEARCH the truths of Who God really is and what His attributes are BEFORE you judge Him so coldly and dismiss Him out of hand?

[Valmarith]

Brother, I have researched many religions including yours, I do not presume to know your god nor to judge it, I simple presume not to know it. It is you, not I, who presumes to know the mind and limits of your god. I do not dismiss your god out of hand, as you said I do not know 'him'.

There are many religions, many holy books, many gods that people worship, many with claims of miracles, many with claims to historical sites, many who have millions of sincere faithful. I have never met a god.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val if you researched the Bible it would take you a lifetime and more to understand its message. I have been a christian for 26 years and I still find I am only at the beginning. If I speak for a day on one attribute of God, say His love I would only have only explained 1 grain of sand from the top of a mountain of a large mountain range of the knowledge of His love for us. In the Bible (John 3:16) it says For God SO loved the world. If you have researched it tell me how to measure this word SO?

[Valmarith]

If you claim that it would take a life time or more to understand the bible then why do you insist on clinging to one dogmatic doctrinal literalist understanding of Genesis?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

You see the road I travel on starts by turning off the broad way that leads to destruction and enter through the narrow gate (Jesus Christ) and follow a narrow way , that is steep and difficult but one that leads to life. I cannot see the way of God while standing on the broadway, I need to "enter in". Its only as i travel this narrow road does everything become clear. The broadway (the atheist belief) is wide and flat but leads to death, but the narrow way although difficult leads to life

[Valmarith]

So how do you decide which doctrines are correct and which are incorrect? How do you decide that your interpretation and understanding of the Bible is accurate and that other Christians with just as much faith as you are inaccurate? How do you know that what you believe is right and everyone else is wrong?

By the way you say "the atheist belief" what is that belief? Atheism is defined by a disbelief, not by any belief. Atheist are simply people who don't believe in gods.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

I don't. God says, let every man be found a liar and let God be true. He then says that the Bible is inspired by Him and can be utterly relied on. So I walk, in faith, trusting in Him. I then obey what is written and find to my delight , that what He promises actually comes true. It does not contradict my reasoning or free will. I can challenge and question and He is not phased by it. God is not some remote vague figure, but personal and intimate and interested in every aspect of my life.

[Valmarith]

So in other words you don't know that your doctrines or interpretations of the bible are correct any more than a Catholic does.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

I do. I follow the Bible. The catholics dont use it....they follow only parts of it that fits the part of their creed. They teach salvation through works and only that which is approved and controlled by the catholic church, the priests and the pope in total contradiction what the gospel of Jesus Christ taught and established. In other words a false gospel. With regards to protestants, I beleive the early ones did rebel against the catholic religion because they discovered what the Bible taught

[Valmarith]

No one follows the entire Bible, you can't because it gives conflicting messages and some parts aren't clear. All Christians fill in bits with doctrine and interpretation, that's why there are so many Christianities. Regardless of what you think of them Catholics believe in and worship Jesus just like you, they have crazy doctrines such as intercession but they cite scripture which that interpret to support their doctrines. You may interpret those scriptures differently.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

No one? I do and there are may of us who do. With regards to catholics - can 1 billion of them be wrong? Absolutely. Look at this dire warning from Jesus:Matthew 7:13-14 13(Q) "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are FEW"

Real Christianity is not a religion but its a daily personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

[Valmarith]

Also your notion regarding my fate is also doctrinal. That there is a hell is biblical but your notion that it's heaven or hell is doctrinal and your notion that everyone who isn't 'born again' during their physical life will have hell as their final destination is doctrinal. If you want to put limits on the mercy and judgement of your god go ahead, I'm just pointing out that you're adding your own personal doctrines to what the bible actually says. Are all your doctrines 100% correct?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

If you blindly pursue the road of evolution which seeks only to usurp the God of the Bible then the whole Bible can be ignored. Am I right? But if your evolution is not proven (and it is not - even Dawkins admits there is no evidence to prove its history, only evidence of what can be tested today) then if you are really seeking truth at least consider the possibility that God exists after all and God says there is a judgement and a consequence then wisdom urges you to at least heed its warning.

[Valmarith]

If you blindly ignore the overwhelming evidence for evolution you only ignore reality and put limits on your god's ability and creativity. You restrict your god to the confines of a man made story book with two separate creation accounts neither of which are supported by any evidence and both of which are contradicted by mountains of evidence. I'm sorry if you can not reconcile your faith in your god with reality because you worship a book and take it's every word as literal. watch?v=Dm277H3ot6Y

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, again you speak of "overwhelming evidence for evolution". Please point it out.

There is none otherwise it would have been paraded by all. There is only supposition and if any scientific evidence is produced as fact , that evidence is only of what we have here today. We do not have any evidence whatsoever of any macro evolution anywhere - you would think that there must be some somewhere, surely, there must be evidence of these supposed changes in creatures over billions of years. Where?

[Valmarith]

Watch the video I linked you to, because there's so much evidence in so many fields and that video presents some of it with good graphical aids. What do you define as macro evolution? Can you give me an example of what Macro Evolution might look like if we saw it?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

An ape changing into a man

[Valmarith]

And how would this look? How would you expect this to take place?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

You know ....the supposed popular stages of ape to man that can be found anywhere....its the flagship picture of the who promote the idea of evolution

[Valmarith]

Ok so what do you expect would happen if evolution were true?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Thats the problem, evolution is not true. If I were to expect something from a fabrication, then Im i the world of make believe so would need to make something up for you. You asked what claim of macro evolution and I asked for the one that is the most professed (ape to man - its kind of important as I am a man) as fact and Im still waiting. You should be able to trot this one out in an instant as you have based your eternal future on its apparent truth and factual evidence, have you not?

[Valmarith]

I didn't ask if it were true, I asked what you would expect if it were. How do you think ape to man would work if it were true?

I'm not sure what you're waiting on, did you watch the video I linked you to? I don't know what you think evolution is but compare a Chihuahua to a Gibson.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

If macro evolution is true, I should be able to empty my garage and put it all in a pile and wait millions of years to see what phenomenonly intricate designed creature or machine it will turn into. The ape has not changed into a man yet as I have seen both and it begs the question of how the various stages how an ape and its intricate biology randomly developed into being from a soupy mass that suddenly appeared without rhyme or reason after forever had passed.

[Valmarith]

You have demonstrated that you have no idea what evolution is or how it's supposed to work.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Educate me.

[Valmarith]

A Chihuahua will never be a Great Dame but at one time they were the same breed. Neither one came from the other but they both share a common ancestor and while both are the result of human cultivation all of the traits that make them different and distinct occurred naturally. They are to the point of Ring Species, they can not be feasibly interbred.

Any one generation is going to be almost identical to the last but each has subtle differences from the last which can accumulate in populations

[BrotherOfTheSon]

I know dogs quite well and I undersatnd about interbreeding to create various types of dogs but that does equate to a dog coming from a different species as say a frog or an elephant. They are distinct in makeup and character. Look at humans, we interbreed and look different from each other but we are still all human. That is is not macro-evolution. With regards to apes and man, biologically we are not compatible at all, man is closer to the pig than to an ape, ask any heart surgeon.

[Valmarith]

Again you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding about what evolution is and how it's supposed to work. The video I linked you to addressed these things, particularly your "inter-breeding" idea. A Donkey and a Zebra are not separate species because of inter breeding, they are separate species because of delineation. Their ancestors have been separated for too long, they have accumulated too many differences to produce fertile offspring. Watch the youtube video watch?v=Dm277H3ot6Y

[BrotherOfTheSon]

You speak of the donkey and zebra, not me. They are not the same. I grew up in Africa and could have told you that.

By the way, how come they "delineated" and not humans or even apes for that matter?

[Valmarith]

All life has delineated from ancestors. A Chihuahua is Delineated from a Great Dame. Humans have been delineating crops and animals artificially for thousands of years through cultivation before we even had a concept of delineation. The modern Banana is an example of delineation caused by human cultivation, look up it's history.

Each generation is slightly different from the last. Life is not monolithic or static, it's always changing and changes accumulate over successive generations.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val you have just jumped too far forward. Go back in time to the first life, how it appeared from nowhere and how it apparently it managed to randomly decide to "delineate" itself into all the sorts of intricately formed creatures we have even today. If this "delineation" took place, there must be abundant evidence of the various stages it undertook, considering how the earth and universe had to randomly fully form itself first to sustain any this life.

[Valmarith]

The first life is an issue for the field of Abiogenesis not Evolution. Evolution deals with the fact that life changes and that changes accumulate over successive generations, it doesn't deal with where life came from.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

How convenient. I deal in mathematics. I cannot calculate anything unless ALL parts of the equation are verifiable and accurate otherwise no matter what I assume or claim moving forward it will inevitably prove to be incorrect, the whole equation scrapped and having to start all over again from the beginning. I cannot build a house will a false or unreliable foundation otherwise it will collapse. As an engineer I can only work with all the facts in hand otherwise i will design a faulty machine.

[Valmarith]

What are you talking about? None of what you just said seems to pertain to what I said.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

You have seperated evolution and abiogenesis as two sepeated entities but logicaklly they should work hand in hand ast they lead one from the other, should they not.

[Valmarith]

Brother Abiogenesis deals with how life got here, Evolution deals with how life changes. The two are not the same. In addition to that fact one is well established while the other is still in the stage of hypothesis.

Evolution deals with how the banana became the elongated fruit we know today from the boxy little fruit we cultivated it from within these last centuries for example. Abiogenesis deals with the hypothetical process by which self-replicating molecules became polypeptides and so on

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Correct. How life got here is mathematically fundamnental in my arguments. We can delve into all biogical facts and figures but the underlying argument is this - Did a personal all-powerful, eternal God really bring everything into existence as He claims from the outset or is there no God and everything randomly and without explanation, appear and begin to intelligently evolve itself into what we have here today? An answer to each part demands a change to our outlook and the decisions we make.

[andytoz]

"or is there no God and everything randomly and without explanation, appear and begin to intelligently evolve itself into what we have here today?"

You're creating a false dichotomy. There are MANY other possibilities as to how the universe began, and we may never know the answer. You're also painting a very dishonest image of the atheistic view. You say "without explanation" when what you should be saying is "in a way we don't understand". And evolution isn't a concious 'intelligent' force.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

But I know the answer. Genesis chapter 1 God says He made the heavens and the earth and everything in it including all the science we see and observe today.

My question is this: Why do some people go to enormous lengths to rather find ANOTHER answer to Genesis , even if no answer is found, which is preferable to accepting the account declared in the Bible.

A nobel peace prize winner said "Science is the search for truth" so is willful blindness to the Biblical account  unscientific?

[Valmarith]

Why go to enormous lengths to understand the natural universe when the Greek myths all say Zeus throws lightning bolts. We should just accept that explanation, no?

Your inability to reconcile science with your faith is your failing. Even if you accept the Genesis myth it does not say how your god Created the heaven and the earth and it does not say that it created everything exactly as is today. The Chihuahua did not exist 200 years ago and it has changed drastically since 1890.

[Valmarith]

Even if there were a creator your presumptions about it would remain unfounded, your "all-powerful" attribute for instance may not be true even if there is a creator god. Even if such a god does exist the questions for how and why life was created remain unanswered. Even if you say "God did it" that doesn't even begin to explain how "God did it".

And no, I do not claim from the outset that there is no God nor do I claim that everything is random and without explanation. Who does claim this?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, you would be suprised how MANY people DO claim there is no God or that everything did happen randomly and without explanation.

That is why I have made this video to show how its illogical what they propose as fact.

[Valmarith]

A gross caricature, first not believing in a god is not the same as claiming there is no god. Second, I have never met anyone who claimed that everything happened "randomly" and "without explanation". Those who do not believe in gods are more likely to accept naturalistic explanations but that does not mean "random" and "without explanation". Also more Christians accept the Big Bang than accept evolution. Though the universe is expanding from a single point (that is fact) the cause it not known.

[patrickledford420]

@BrotherOfTheSon evolution is not random chance and it has been proven beyond a REASONABLE doubt and it doesnt disprove your god just the literal interpretation and grace given by god i dont think the starving people in africa have had ANY grace or ANY good things done to them

[bobobobobo73]

@Valmarith Watch a vid called (proving the existance of god-indisputable-scientific-lo­gical) if you still dont agree with me after you watch then dont write back! im not in the mood for more confentation, iv been having youtube wars, and im tired!

[Valmarith]

By "as He claims" you mean "as the Bible claims". If you have the doctrinal interpretation that the entire Genesis story as 100% literal (even though it contains two conflicting creation accounts) then there is no way you can reconcile your faith with science.

Most Christians understand Genesis Allegory and and Metaphor.

[juggaloryan3]

@BrotherOfTheSon Well, does that mean abiogenesis leads to evolution leads to how to change a light bulb? I mean, you cant change a lightbulb without having evolved thumbs, so.....

[Valmarith]

By the way Delineation isn't a decision, it's a natural phenomena that occurs in nature and in cultivation all the time.

And there is abundant evidence of Dileneation at pretty much every level. The genetic evidence alone presents fused chromosomes, overlapping ERV markers, overlapping mutations, redundant or damaged genetic sequences in some species.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

a natural phenomena ? Is that intelligent or random? If I place a book on a shelf, it will stay there forever as a book, if it is not moved. It and the shelf and the wall will not develop and delineate themselves into different forms will they? As you know all matter is made of different atoms having different number of electrons determining how it is made, why have none of them delineated at all by themselves? They seem pretty constant. Actually that is what they are called, constants.

[Valmarith]

Every variation is random but the selective pressures are not. Delineation occurs when two breeding populations are separated and differences between them accumulate, speciation occurs when accumulated differences make inter-breeding no longer feasible or causes interbreeding to produce infertile offspring.

You compare inanimate objects to ever growing ever changing organic life. We reproduce, our genes constantly get shuffled about, each individual has an estimate 130+ individual mutations.

[Valmarith]

In addition I know something about Physics, and matter is anything but constant. At the quantum level things are rather chaotic, there is order but that order is typically emergent. Quarks and leptons and electrons are formed by the curvature of energy as put forward by E=Mc2 (energy squared coverts from wave form energy to particle energy). All three of these bodies are unstable and have a wave particle duality that they often transition between until entropy claims a unit of matter.

[Valmarith]

Brother delineation is simply when two breeding populations are separated and accumulate differences between their gene pools. When these populations reproduce in different environments they have different pressures. A puppy born in a tropical jungle with a thick coat of fur will be more likely to over head and suffer infestation from parasites. That same puppy born in a tundra will be more likely to survive.

Your talk about electrons is wholly irrelevant to the topic of delineation.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

And what did they delineate from?....any evidence would be appreciated , otherwise I need to assume you are speculating.

[Valmarith]

Look up the history of the Banana. Delineation is not speculation.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, you speak of mercy and that He is limited in mercy if he sends people to hell. Why is it that man always speaks of God's mercy but never of His holiness and righteousness.

Are they depending on it, if they have made a mistake after all - that they can call on it saying they were misled or confused or that it was His fault for not revealing Himself more clearly to them, that He should take pity on them and be merciful? If that is so, ask yourself this - why was there a Jesus and a cross?

[Valmarith]

Brother I don't presume to judge your god, I leave that to you.

[Valmarith]

I am speaking on the limits you place on your god. I do not presume to be holy or righteous, and I do not presume that your god is merciful nor without mercy. I am you limit the character of your god and claim to know his mind by a doctrinal interpetation of a book.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

My God is limited by His attributes of unending love, holiness, righteousness, self-existence, transcendence, eternalness, omnipotence,immutability, omniscience,wisdom, sovereignty and faithfulness. He will never compromise any of them for the sake of another. They all work together in perfect harmony. He can be completely loving while at the same time be wrathful against those who commit sin at the same time creating a way to forgive them because He loves them without compromising any attribute

[Valmarith]

I do not presume to know your god or presume what limits it has. Your doctrines are your own.

[Valmarith]

Please forgive my english if it is not the best, I did not mean to say I am after my first sentence.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

I believe it because God said He did it.

He has not lied to me yet and I think its quite arrogant to assume that I have already have all knowledge and understanding. Do you not realise that it has been the fatal error of mankind throughout time when each generation assumed that they were at the pinnacle of knowledge and understanding? Leave room in your heart and mind that you might be wrong and God does exist, after all.

[Valmarith]

I never believed in any god to start with, so I never had to reconcile Science with your god. However hundreds of millions of christians have no problem reconciling evolution with Christianity. The physical evidence is overwhelming, and Christians who accept it worship your god not your book, they recognize that man put ink to paper when writing the bible and it can't all be taken 100% literally all the time, there are even two creation stories in genesis they can't both be right.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, there you go again..making broad statements without offering the slightest evidence as if what you say is "established" fact. Let me say one thing about the Word of God - any person who denies what God says is true, denies who God is. Why? Because God says He IS truth. Its not some characteristic He has but WHAT He is. If He says He created the world and everything in it, then He is telling the truth. BTW waiting for your "overwhelming" evidence to be produced or are you simply a talker?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, if someone wrote a biography of your life does that mean I must conclude you did not exist because someone else actually put pen to paper?

Two creation stories? - no, there are only one complete story. The Bible is not some join-the-dots easy to read account. Some parts are simple and profound and contain great truths, other parts "reveal" themselves as you study it and obey it. Not all gems lay around on the surface, the real treasure needs to be dug out. Your knowledge of it is limited.

[Valmarith]

No if someone wrote a biography of my life they would have a variety of contemporary sources other than hear say to invoke as evidence that I existed and there would be records of various events throughout my life. If the documentery claimed that I had magic powers you would be justified to not believe that was actually true unless you had clear evidence that such powers did exists. If I had no contemporary records of anything I ever said or di, as all important figures do then I may be a myth.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Val, Jesus never wrote down one word but more has been written about Him than any other person in history. With regards to his "magic powers" , none of his healings, raising people from the dead, feeding 1000's of people etc were ever disputed of happening by his adversaries only that they thought He did it by the power of behelzebub and not God. There is more secular evidence of his actual existence and ministry than there are written by His followers. Its safe to say He existed as is recorded.

[Valmarith]

No extrabiblical record dating to the time of Jesus mentions anything he ever said or did nor even documents his existence, for any other historical character that is quite embarrassing. Even if he did exist there's no separating the man from the myth, and as a mythical character he's not much more impressive than the other mythical characters from the time period. Jesus didn't need to exist for Christianity to exist though, only stories about him needed to exist. You're proof of that.

[GreenByNature86]

I'm sorry that you don't actually understand the science and have been taken in by the arguments of deniers.

No one who has proven themselves an expert in the field of biology (or chemistry in the case of abiogenesis) has provided credible evidence to dispute evolution. Even if the theory was proven wrong, the answer does not automatically become "God."

[Agus013013]

Sir, I challenge you, to question your own beliefs. Do take an Agnostic view on life for once. That's as far as you can go.

I'm tired of being enough "human" to challenge and question my own so called facts.

I want to see if Christians are able to do this as well. I haven't come to a conclusion yet for the sake of being open minded.

If even religious people are able to question their own beliefs, analyse them from the opposite view. Only then, I will be able to come to a conclusion.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Its because I looked into the matter and questioned everything that I have come to faith in Jesus Christ. Please do not assume that i was born Christian or had christian leanings. I come from a family who has nothing to do with religion at all.

My life was one of being secure in my own understanding of life and death andthe hereafter. I started to look at everything around me and question where it all came from. I have looked into evolution and its answers are unsubstantiated.

[Bootchild]

That's the amazing thing about the Word. Rather than telling us to close our eyes and believe, it encourages us to test everything for ourselves. I still consider evolution as the Lord's means for creating the universe. People often claim it contradicts His character, but, they never back up that claim. I'm still organizing my own thoughts on that subject, as well as many others that are otherwise controversial to corporate Christians. But, if the Word supports something, why reject it?

[Agus013013]

BrotherOfTheSon, I challenge you, to question your own beliefs. At least take an Agnostic view on it, that's as far as you can go.

I'm tired of being very nice to challenge and question my so called facts, I want to know if at least, Christians are open minded enough to do the same.

I haven't closed a conclusion, and I feel I'm being too nice for just doing it. Please let me know, that Christians are able to do this too. Maybe even your answer will make me come to a conclusion faster.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Even as a Christian, I still ask and question everything. I find God to be amazingly kind and patient. He does not get upset when I "find mistakes". He corrects me by pointing me to other facts i was unaware of before. Its all a jigsaw puzzle and the pieces are upside down. I am patiently putting it together. It will take me forever but I have learned to have trust, faith and patience in Him.

Christianity is a religion of the heart and how a person is able to have a close relationship with God

[SolarStarrX]

Using the "Religious Age" of the earth, those odds are indeed formidable and inconceivable. Earth however, is 4.5 Billion yrs old. Use facts, not suppositions. Also, it's no more magical for a protein to find and attach itself to a cell, than it is for white blood cells to seek out bacteria. They don't 'Choose' to do this, it's their function. Ever see a Bass fisherman, trying his luck for a good catch, at the top of Mt Everest? Not likely. It's not a place where Bass fish hang out at.

[777alucard]

7*******

[StaceyC123]

Are you insane? Can you really look at the story told in your little magic book (that an all-powerful, all-knowing "god" created everything, was not happy with what he had created, and so gave himself an "out" by sending himself as a sacrifice to himself) and claim that it makes ANY sense at all? It is a laughable position to take, if for no other reason than that it shows the supposed "sacrifice" of this "Jesus" character as utterly worthless.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Yes my friend. He chose to reveal Himself in the foolish things of the world.

The message of the Gospel (good news) is foolishness to those who are perishing.

[vrghiks]

Define insane!

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Truck, thank you for your interesting and enlightening comment. One question, have you ever thought how that humankind is the only species that can create and play beautiful music?

If we were just a bunch of chemicals that has programmed itself to exist in more complex ways on a planet that has seemingly no purpose how is it possible that music would ever feature in our existence and even yours?

In the Bible God says he created you put in you an inbuilt appreciation of good music.

[TRUCKEEDOG666]

Ummmm, birds?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Some birds can make sounds that are melodic to us but these sounds are particular to each type of bird. How is it possible that the cooing of a dove in Australia is exactly the same as in Europe? They were created that way. Humans on the other hand have the unique ability to compose and play a whole range of music by singing or playing sounds on musical instuments and both. Birds do not have that ability and have not "evolved" any further than since time began.

[TRUCKEEDOG666]

wow

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Muvlonion, in the muslim world today adultery is illegal and anyone committing can be imprisioned or put to death. There is a casein the United Arab Emirates this week where two British citizens have been imprisoned prior to deportation for adultery. Now you can say that Muslims are backward - but are they? Maybe our standards have slipped so far back where we now approve of adultery (as long as it is not done to us and does not affect us personally, of course). So is the Bible out of step?

[Pjl1192]

I suggest you watch Potholer54's video about the origin of life through abiogenesis. You clearly haven't done enough research.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

I did watch it. His position starts off, not one of of inquiry, but of one whose mind is already made up and spends vasts amount of time trying to convince others why his position is true. Lots of suppositions and very little provable "facts". Its not true but that is his position. I looked into Darwin and Dawkins and if that is the best that can be offered by atheists to prove that God did not create everything, then the Bible is far more credible proving that He does, in every area.

[Pjl1192]

Potholer's position is one of someone who has reviewed the evidence and countless laboratory tests regarding the origins of life. I'd like you to point out and suppositions and "little provable facts", as all of the points in his video have been verified through laboratory science.

BTW, Christians are the least inquisitive people on Earth. Their minds are made up, and nothing can shake their beliefs, even solid science.

Science = Satan (apparently)

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Science = Satan (apparently)???

Really?

I dont know who you have been talking to but it my neighbourhood, science is not a "satan". Its only the results of some "scientific" experiments that I question. I read the God Delusion by Dawkins (who is so highly regarded amongst evolutionists) I can see why intelligent Christians and non-Christians shake their heads wishing they had better evidence to prove their case. I look at the odds of chemicals spontaneously forming and joining to create life.

[Pjl1192]

I was thinking of VenomFangX's video "Satan Invented Evolution". I'm glad that you don't think the same as some Christians, however.

I too read the God Delusion and thought it provided a very strong case against the "God Hypothesis" as Dawkins calls it. There are mountains of evidence supporting the theory of evolution.

It's been proven in the lab that chemicals found on early Earth will form complex structures in conditions the same as those found on early Earth.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

"a very strong case" and "mountains of evidence" ....mmm...no I dont think so. As a Christian I found God Delusion inspired me but not in the manner you think. The arguments are poor. I am thinking of making a video or two showing how poor his arguments really are. As to the supposed mountains of evidence I am sure you can agree that that is not exactly true. If it was a universally accepted fact and it was proven that God did not exist it would be trumpeted everywhere and religion abandoned

[mckampela]

Could you tell me why you believe that humans are special and are important to a omnipotent creator who created whole universe? Why would this thing even bother with my petty life?

If you say "He loves humanity", tell me why.

I think it is because humans want to feel so special and important.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

A message for those who whinge about why their messages do not appear or why I do not allow ratings here - its simply because the atheists simply one star any site which questions or challenges their theory of evolution or even abiogenesis. Its ok to leave comments but I will remove any that has swearing in it or shows disrespect towards my God. You can disagree with me but please do so in a civil manner. It is possible to present an opposing view and remain civil. Do unto others.....

[BrotherOfTheSon]

What? Still no comments with regards to the subject I have raised here - A created universe?

I looked at your site and typically you have nothing to offer, no opposing view, no alternate offer for people to consider, only more hatred towards God and christians.Its true what they say, "An empty barrel makes the most noise."

[BrotherOfTheSon]

A fact there is no God? What is this fact that proves that God does not exist? Please enlighten this poor wretch of a soul with the pearls of eternal wisdom you proudly claim to own.

BTW if you say this god does not exist why do you level so much hatred towards Him or anyone who chooses to believe in Him?

BTW I don't need to "suck on the poison of the horrible denial" to know Him because I know Him as a Person and He is not evil in any way as you suggest.

You are the one full of hatred

[lachiemckenzie]

Physical Evidence And Reasoned Logic.

Thats what pearls of wisdom are my friend.

Not persistent, unshakable, uncompromising beliefs which are immune to argument or debate.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

I do not need your pity. Deep down I have profound peace and joy. I have discovered, as millions of other atheists have, that God is real and His word can utterly be relied upon.

You on the other hand have adopted the position of a scoffer (one who has taken a high position - a perilous seat at the gates of hell looing at heaven - shouting derision at God -unaware of the terrible danger he is in as hell reaches out to swallow him up for all eternity) Read 2Peter 3: 3-8. Its about you.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Your name from the Lost series is indicative of the type of person the Bible says you are:

Revelations: 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth (knowledge) and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked."

I can only appeal to you to consider Christ so He can forgive you for breaking His laws repeatedly and worse, refusing to believe in Him. You are truly lost. It comes out in your comments. Your arrogance makes you a scoffer of God.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Mmm...I think your attack on my character is unwarranted. I have no fear of debate with someone such as yourself. As I have clearly said on my previous post - I actually encourage you to make an interesting and informative comment on the subject i am presenting here, but I am still holding my breath waiting for the "pearls of wisdom" you brag about to be put into a comment. Instead, you stand from afar, throwing insults at my character - which btw doesnt bother me (actually I am amused) .

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Oceanus57, do you have any comment to make that is helpful and informative or do you simply go round to christian sites giving one-star ratings without even considering what message the site is sending. Poeple may call it willfull ignorance - I could agree. What do you think ? I make a deal with you - if you respond with an intersting and thoughtful comment as to the facts of the contents of the message then I will allow you to rate the site. Fair? BTW, sticks and stones....

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Because I am more interested in what people have to say rather than they simply tick a star to indicate what they think of the video. I need people to put a little more thought into a comment and be ready to be challenge or be challenged. I dont care what people think of the site, rather that they turn those thoughts into a constructive comment. Its called communication.

[architecturalmind]

the answer you are seeking is 'BLIND FAITH'

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Read John 20: 24-29.

I am not asking you to understand why I believe in His claims that he created everything. I cannot prove His existence to you as I cannot scientifically prove the love my wife and children have for me. I experience their love for me daily but for me to provethat fact scientifically to you is impossible. The same with God, I have a real relationship with Him. Its as you believe in Him that He reveals Himself to you, not the other way round. He chose to do it that way round.

[architecturalmind]

so my assumption was correct, it is BLIND faith.

you say 'he' reveals himself to you... how?

if you have a spiritual relationship with something that you cannot define then it might aswell be an imaginary friend.

please do not quote from the bible or any other book as this is not helping the case for religion in any shape or form.

science does not ask you to prove Gods existance it just asks that you be open minded incase 'he' doesnt exist.

thats the difference between us

[BrotherOfTheSon]

I clearly understand where you are coming from - I used to think exactly like you. His reality has taken me by suprise. Its difficult to prove scientifically of His reality. Asking me not to quote the Bible is like asking a lawyer to prove a law is valid without using law books. What about justice? Isnt it something every person understands without the need for it to prove its existence? Anyone who lives in rejection of it is convicted as a criminal and is put in a prison or worse.

[lachiemckenzie]

Exactly- we dont need law books to tell us about the basic concept of justice do we? It's intuitive. Just like we don't need a book to tell us how to be moral, ethical or a nice person who doesn't hate or spread hate or associate with people who hate others enough to kill them.

You can do all this without a book. There is a lot of good stuff in the Bible, but it's also full of homophobic, mysoginistic, hate-filled, tyrannical, petty and out-dated messages. Pick another book.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Thank you for your opinion on the Bible, though I have heard that comment somewhere before. BTW, have you actually studied or even just read the Bible? Usually people who dislike the Bible have a common thread - they dont like being told what to do in any area of their life, they prefer doing everything their own way. Its not that the Bible is really bad, its just that if they followed it, they wil have to give up (as they see it ) doing whatever grabs their fancy knowing it is wrong.

[lachiemckenzie]

You're right- my knowledge of the Bible is very poor indeed. It is clear, however, that a lot of it contradicts itself. I don't mind being told what to do- it's just if i think it's wrong, i'll question it. For example, if i was told to kill someone because they didn't believe in something, I wouldn't do it. Your point is valid about a lot of the Bible being good, but surely youd rather pursue a life where everything is good, so that people don't kill for silly reasons such as religion.

[lachiemckenzie]

Im not saying that you personally have done anything of that nature, but others do interpret it literally. The problem for me is that it's all there in the 'good book'- the good and the bad. Surely its dangerous to have messages promoting peace with conflicting messages in a different chapter? I prefer doing things that benefit humanity. Not perpetuating bronze age myths for the very selfish aim to go to heaven and obey a god. he has no new messages- only the bible. time to evolve.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Watching your video, you keep saying "oh my God". To whom are you referring to if as you say "jesus doesn't fucking exist you fucking moron shut the fuck up "?

[toughdog6789]

Who are you talking about?

[sputnikowns]

God can coexist with evolution quite easily. Many evolution scientists are religious, actually.

[BrotherOfTheSon]

Religious? Which one? Christian, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Orthodox Judaism, Muslim, Spiritualism, Hinduism, Buddhism, New Ageism, Satanism, Atheism, Scientism, Later Day Saints, Scientology, Christian Science, Evangelical, Baal.....? or are you saying these evolution scientists are the born again, filled with the Holy Spirit God loving christians? Religious, yes, but not the latter. To admit that would be to call God a liar and contradict His first statement in Genesis 1: verse 1.

[mrkurt13]

You're odds calculation is so off the mark its not even funny. If you don't want to believe in evolution, and the overwhelming number of lines of evidence that point to it, that's fine. Just leave it at that. You don't even understand what a theory is (A framework that explains a collection of Facts). You don't understand chemistry.... Or anything scientific it seems.

"I experienced the Holy Spirit convicting me of my sin. "

What does that have to do with evolution?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

"and the overwhelming number of lines of evidence that point to it, that's fine."???

Oh really? What evidence is that please?

I am glad you read my testimony. What is really important about it is that I was just like you, and I experienced the reality of God in my life. Its very difficult for me now to deny His existence. What changed was me and my thinking. Now that I know Him, I realise how blind I had been. I thought,like you, that I was being logical but actaully I was blind.

[mrkurt13]

ERV's nested hierarchies, lots of stuff. Non of that Conflicts with God. Just with ideas written about God.

Logic, reason and evidence are the first test of a correct faith. They are the most shallow truths, yes, but it is the only way to begin on the path to God. If you just say, well god doesnt make sense, then what is wrong with Islam? They also experience God.

[brilly1236]

God is the same then now and forever~ Amen

Im happy we cant see him because it proves who actually believes to see!! instead of seeing to believe!

[Rokusho39]

Instead of doing what some may do and call you an idiot, I shall give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your are simply ignorant on Evolution and Abiogenesis.

I ask you, learn what these actually are, abiogenesis is NOT a chance process of amino acids deciding to come together randomly, it is the result of predictable chemistry. Evolution too is not a chance process.

Though these words fall on deaf ears, ones which ignore facts, take dogma without question and simply fail to understand.

[Philos2006]

Atheists rule out nothing. That`s your biased opinion. Give them evidence and atheists will disappear instantly.. The problem is oyu DON`T have evidence.

[bahremon2170]

Realize that you are serving a false god. A "jealous" god. One whom admits envy towards others. One cannot admit jealousy without admitting envy of another having something which they do not have. What does your god not have?

[BrotherOfTheSon]

I do not allow ratings here, only comments.

Its simply because the atheists one star any site which questions or challenges their theory of evolution or abiogenesis. Its ok to leave comments but I will remove any that has swearing in it or shows utter disrespect towards my God.

With some atheists I have dealt with they need to evolve a bit more in the area of manners and respect. Apart from that, fire away. Thank you.

[bahremon2170]

I am an atheist and I would not downrate you based on your beliefs sir. I think you need to follow me into the real world. Shed your cloak of ignorance and realize that when you follow me into the real world you will no longer have shame because you will know all is natural. The world is as it is not as it always was but growing and evolving into a new world every day.