@Cookiemonsterz21 What are your medical or anatomical qualifications? ...exactly. Spout your bs to a 90 yr old shoulin monk who has lived that way his whole life (because they do) and is WAY happier and healthier than you are. I'll train a horse with LDR and you do it your sissy ass way and see who's horse is healthier and happier.
@horsegirlanna Absolutely! Couldn't agree more. All these bleed heart nancies who get all of their bills paid by daddy or hubby have too much time on their hands and need to get a job! Great video!
finally someone has the guts to stick up for us real riders! i'm sick of all these couch potatoes sitting behind their computer screens criticizing something they really don't understand. They just read books and watch videos, then try to knock down people who have worked really hard to develop their skills. these critics should sit on a modern warmblood and see how friggin hard these horses are to ride. theyd have more appreciation for how tough this sport is and why we do what we do.
@horsegirlanna You are so right! I don't think that we all should ride rollkur everyday for hours, but stretching and bending up to a certain point doesn't hurt a horse. And as you say most of the people arguing about rollkur are not able to ride their horse with any connection, so that their horses walk like camels heads up with short and stiff backs. how can these people talk about swinging backs? about riding passage and piaffe? they do not know what they are talking about.
@IrisMaeConn WRONG! you can have opinions on undecided matters. You can't however ignore scientific FACTS and say that it is just your opinion. If i say i want to feed my horse catfood because it makes cats healthy and so it is my 'opinion' that it is healthy for my horse...what would you say? that i'm stupid! You all trot along with Anky and her lies. The judges are wrong and Jaccko is wrong. Please get wise! check the facts and join the right side! Don't defend wrong information! ever!
You are dead wrong. And gymnists are people who make that choice. They destroy their body's. Forget it, it is not healthy. Rollkur is unnatural for the horse. This can be seen by the lack of hindleg engagement. The action of the front is disproportionate tot te back. A healthy way for a horse to walk is in balance and with the weight on the hindlegs. A rider and wel respected vet prooved it is unhealthy! And you make a naieve and wrong propaganda movie for this! who do you think you are?
This is so frustrating!! i admire you for explaining your views on this because its a bit of a contravertial subject, its like the new anti hunting debate!!
i want to find out more about this but there are 2 sides to every areguement and it seems both sides miss out huge bits of info that negatively effect their arguement
this is the first time i have seen hyperflexion explained in this way and it does make sense, i just need to find a neutral person who can explain both sides!! thanks xx
@xXxNikixMxXx I know what you mean, I'm kinda neutral on the whole thing myself because I understand both sides of the argument. Studies have shown that continuous rollkur can have negative long term effects, but it also creates flexability and gives the horse the ability to preform to the highest level they can. I think in the hands of someone who knows how to do it properly it is okay. I guess you kinda have to decide what your opinion is? x
@AshleighM82 I think you are right. It is like most of the time, we have to find the middleway. not rolling too much and too long (until the tongue is blue) but as well not riding without reign contact, because you can see the high horsehead and inactive hindlegs leading to a short and sore back. and the rider should take care of a relaxed horseback, to prevent from kissing spines.
If you watch a horse in the field, they can perform the movements seen in a dressage arena. My 4 year old has performed piaffe, spanish walk and a doux passage in the field- he's never been trained any of these movements but has the ability to do these in the field. He's not had any training in Hyperflexion nor has he been ridden much as he's doing a lot of groundwork.
@lassiesuca Horses do NOT need to be stretched in such an extreme way as you say they should- these horses are already capable of doing this, and gentle stretching and gymnastic exercises can help suppleness and increase collection. There is no need for such a stretch.
there is a BIG DIFFERENCE: a gymnast does that because he wants to. DID YOU EVER ask a horse? if you know the horse's speech, you'll see that most of them are in pain. their eyes are wide open, the tail beats up and down and they dont chew their bits. it shows the pain. ARE YOU BLIND???
Cont'd ...BTW - if the heavier, old-fashioned horses were less flexible, surely they would need to be ridden more in hyperflexion, not less? So now, with the modern horses, you don't need rollkur any more, because they are already flexible... it doesn't make sense. The tests are much flashier now, certainly - but distinctly at odds with the requirements of the rule book, which states, among other things, that nothing should be forced. I'm not sure who actually reads the thing any more...
The humans shown are mainly contortionists, not gymnasts - they learn to force themselves into these positions from an early age and will most likely suffer arthritis later in life. Besides, a human (we hope) can choose when to stop . The 'loose contact' shown can only be maintained momentarily, a horse is unable to hold that position voluntarily for more than a couple of seconds - that's why their mouths have to be shut with crank nosebands so they can't evade the bit....
I think you're missing the (many) points people who are anti-hyperflexion make. Hyperflexion is not about gymnastic training (try caveletti for that), nor is it about elasticity (rollkur destroys swing and elasticity). It's about the pain caused to the horse's mouth from unrelenting bit pressure, the neck through hyperflexion of the spine, and the oesophagus through occlusion. The horse is a very inflexible animal. Go and learn about horse bio-mechanics then review your video.
@Jaccko14 The person who has posted this video is only trying to explain her opinion, there are many opinions on this subject and we should respect them all
@Jaccko14 Jeah, I'm sure if you had any anatomic or medical knowledge of both horses and athletes you would see that it is nonsense that hyperflexion as well as many flexibility tricks some gymnasts use are poison for a horse's or human's health.
Sure thing that horses enjoy hyperflexion... just look at their eyes and you'll see they're suffering.
@Jaccko14 It's unnatural for the poor horse! The sight is effected how about you walk around with your chin on your chest and try and feel comfy like that also whilst trying to see where your going.. Oh and throw a bit in your mouth and get someone to yank you in that position... Rollkur is vile.
You are so f***** stupid! Ok so its not just the horses chin touching its chest that makes rollkur wrong, its the fact that the riders put so much pressure on the reins! Also when a horse is being ridden deep and round they loose all impulsion in the hind end thus loosing everything the rider strove to achieve! AND the reason the rider in classical dressage did not use the hyperflexion method on the lipizzaners was not because they are of "heavy" build, but cause they dont belive in the method!
this is positively vile and makes me feel sick to watch. What messed up creatures the human race is. Dressage should show the natural flow of the horses movement. Dressage lost that plot years ago.
....and this achieves WHAT exactly in order to train your horse in accordance with the FEI RULES?
It has been shown the RK tenses the back muscles making the horse physically UNABLE to swing the hind legs under the body - this goes completely against the WHOLE concept of Dressage !
Never seen an olympic gymnast attempt any routine requiring running or walking with their heads tied to their chest. Nor a track athlete for that matter. Since when has a thoroughbred been bred to be "fine"? It was bred to race full pelt on a racecourse with it's head out in front for balance and speed. Lippizanners were trained over 10 years or more to do what they do, in proper collection and balance. Show me a horse being trained using rollkur that has balance and cadence?
And do you think all trainers take the time to gradually introduce a horse into this hyper flexion? No, just like Saddlebred trainers, these horses are being forced to do unnatural things without having the build to back it up.
I can see what you are trying to prove, but I don't think you have the science to back it up at all. Horses are completely different than humans. How they carry their heads determines their balance. If we force them into these positions, they are never properly balanced. Horses eyes are on the sides of their heads, and with their necks like this, they cannot see what is in front of them. And BTW, gymnasts aren't super humans. If you think they do all that without long-term you're wrong.
Rollkur is not damaging to the horse? It causes pressure on the vertebrae, chokes the horse and vision is restricted and new bones grow on the back of the skull from the stress of over flexion. And perhaps you should watch the video of the blue tongued horse at the world cup.
may I also add, that the facts in there are a load of bollox- you critiqued my anti rollkur video, so I will do it to your rollkur one, firstly, the comparison of horses which are heavier and those that aren't - one, the Spanish Riding School horses perform exactly the same movements as those of a warmblood 'finer type' - yet none of this Rollkur abuse is needed in achieving it, because all of the SRS horses are supple and most importantly happy. They don't need there heads forced down ... (tbc)
or you have nothing to say in response to my comment.
So why is it that heavier bred horses are capable of doing these things without the extensive use or any use of roll-kur?? I am intreguied in finding out..
as long as you dont bite my head off! to start with any horse is capable of grandprix work without the use of hyperflexion. Hyperflexion is simply just another approach. And as the video says, the heavier built horses are not as flexible as todays performance horses.
that wasn't really an answer was it ? But with proof that Roll Kur is damaging to the horse, why do you need to perform something which is damaging to a horse. Tbh any horse could be ridden in the Rollkur position, however, heavier horses are total proof that you don't need this sort of training in order to achieve harmony and balance. Tbh modern dressage is being destroyed by these sorts of methods. How can you claim to like classical, when you are for Anky- makes no sense whatsoever.:S
Whats tbh? It is not damaging to the horse, so therefore there is no problem training like that. Modern dressage is not destroying anything. There are plenty of competition riders who dont train like that. I really enjoy watching classical dressage and airs above the ground, but i also understand ankys method and what it has brought to the sport is incredible. So infact, it does make sense. It just means i understand both sides.
What has Anky's method brought to the sport!! NOthing!! Her method goes completely against the laws of classical horsemanship and dressage! Dressage is all about impulsion from the hind end and lightness. YOU LOSE BOTH OF THOSE THINGS WHEN YOU HYPERFLEX YOUR HORSE! Wake up and smell the fresh air! But if you want to go ruin your horse go right ahead. But when you're stuck at a lower level because you chose not to train your horse correctly don t go crying to youtube to post some silly sob story!
@Jaccko14 Sorry but all of anky's accheivments are nothing to the stuff that you achieve in classical dressage and you do it without pain. Anky is ridiculous for putting a horses head in that posistion in the first place! Gymnasts have a choice to put themselves in stupid shapes horses just get held there. There is a BIG difference and i think you need to study the horse and how it works a bit more! My horse was ridden rollkur and got kissing spine, proof it hurts!
A gymnast does these things by choice, they want to do this, however the horse has no say in the things we do to him, its the rider, classical riders such as Philippe Karl can perform Grand Prix equivalent movements such as piaffe and piroutte and he doesn't need to hyperflex his horse to enable them to do this. Your video is a load of tot, and makes no sense. Like I said, the horse has no choice in the things we force him to do, a gymnast choses to do that.
..cont) or nor do they need the horses mouth to be shut in a noseband, and gadgets in order to get a horses head down- so why bother causing the horse extra damage and pain when these 'heavier' breeds are capable of doing things, also, if you watch a classically trained horse, compared to a dressage horse, there is much less tension, less force and no cruel training methods involved. There is no scienfical proof that rollkur is okay- except 'Anky and Sjef' words of 'wisdom' LOL this is bollox.
@lassiesuca, I have looked and the only good thing I could find Philipe Karl doing was a piaffe. It was a very good piaffe, but I can't find footage of him doing ANYTHING else that looked good. If you know of any, let me know because so far I am unimpressed by him.
So there is a correct way to cram your horses muzzle into its chest without hurting it??
Who knew!!!
Benefits...dumped on forehand, strung out hind end, broke at third vertabre, tension, can't swallow correctly, tore up mouth and tongue, no hind end impulsion, lack of relaxation, learned helplessness, the list goes on.
Look, I'm not saying I approve of rollkur, or that I would ever ride with it myself. I do prefer a nice, on-the-bit horse. But I have read that it doesn't hurt if the horse is trained correctly, and that it can have benefits - at least if it is done for about 30 seconds, no longer. Of course, those websites could be wrong. ;)
The people that write about all the *good* from rollkur are the ones who use it and doing all the damage control that they can before the FEI bans it in the warm up arenas. If they only did it for less than 30 seconds it would still be bad to but more tolerated. Thing is they don't fo long periods of time. One *pro* rider was video taped ridng like this at a warm up for nearly two hours. Sick!
I've heard tnat it makes the horse more supple. And by "short periods of time" I mean when the horse isn't moving.
I do agree with you that people shouldn't be riding like this for long periods of time, especially two hours! That IS sick. I've seen slowmotion videos where they show rollkur positions and the horses are so clearly in so much pain.
In that case, I am definately against using rollkur when the horse is moving forward, and for no more than 30 seconds when standing still. :)
why would they not be able to breath? Don't give me Theresa Sandin's crap, the airway is nothing like a hoze! It has cartilage rings, so it's like the bendy part of a straw.
No Human Gymnastic Coach, even on the olympic level, would request for their student athlete to hold a contorted,deep stretch for more than 30seconds. Most of these stretches are asked of the athlete at 3 seconds max.
And somethings else i do not understand is the reason for putting weight on top of the stretched ligaments and muscle tissue. This does not make any sense to me and sounds very painful to have pressure on a tightly stretched muscle.
I do carrot stretches that resemble a rolkur movement but i do not sit on horse during stretch and i do not hold the horse there beyond 10 sec...30 sec max. I was a gymnast for 8 years and it was always advised to never hold a super flexed position for more than 30seconds, it disrupts tendons,ligaments and damages muscle tissue. I have never seen a horse released from this stretch after 30 seconds, instead held for minimum of 15 min which is damaging according to scientific evidence and study.
You are so poorly educated on so many levels- have you ever actually studied physiology or anatomy at all??
And how many top level gymnasts do you see healthy and functioning into old age?? The strain they put on their bodies to perform those moves is immense and they pay the price later in life. But that is their choice- it is not our place to make a similar choice for our horses
thanks Jaccko, so many propaganda type clips out there purporting the "cruelty" of rollkur as a training aid, nice to see someone a little less negatively biased out there. Highly emotive topic isn't it?! LOL
FFS this is the biggest pile of shite I've ever read on the subject. Ill informed and just plain wrong. Rollkur is never right-end of ! How dare you try to compare what , so called, top trainers do to horses who don't have a choice, to gymnasts. I wonder how many gymnasts you can find that are forced into these positons against their will and then 'strapped' there? if you think this is anywhere near right then you're a dumbass and not a horse lover at all.
this is the biggest load of bollox ive ever seen in all my life! anyone who knows anything about how top tiders and top horses on a yard they know that it is not done how uve put it across in this video! these horses work in this way cuz they have the shit beaten out of em nd have their mouth pulled to peices and draw reins on until they learn not to move their head.. ive worked on an international dressage yard so i would know.. this is bollox
1:19 not loose bloody contact its a pelham and has 2 sets of reins!!! The top rein has a contact and the bottom rein is only used to bring the head "down" every so often (when the horse resists). And with a strong bit in a sensitive area they have no choice but to shove there heads into their chests, resisting hurts them too much! And the last 3 pics aren't hyperflexion those horses are working correctly on the vertical (on the bit) Hyperflexion is cruel and painful on the vertical is natural!
Wow Jaccko...you found ...what...one picture with the reins semI loose? How many can you find NOT loose and the riders even leaning back on them?? A lot!
And the snaffle reins were not loose, just the curb reins. We are not blind! And as for the 'thrend' towards lighter built horses, just the opposite is really happening because of the move towards warmbloods!
obviously anyone with knowledge of equine anatomy can not be pro-rollkur. stretching and building muscle groups as a gymnist is not the same as isolating and over-tensioning something like the nuchal ligament... and if these horses are not being 'forced', why is no one able to demonstrate it in a halter, etc?
Extreme flexibility of the nuchal ligament is not a priority in dressage. What we are aiming for is a horse that can carry a rider with such ease that he can move just as well undersaddle as he can when free. Streching and flexing the neck is not necessary, as it does not help a horse carry his rider well. Therefor, rollkur is an essentially useless training aid for this sport.
you forgot the end of the live of a gymnast, which is the same as the end of a horse trained this way (rollkur)...
at the age of 30, the body of a gymnast is completely destroyed! the muscles are "over-bent" and they have problems with every movement they do...
with "rollkur-trained" horses it's the same and if the first damages appear, which decrease It's outward appeareance at tournaments, the horse'll be sold or killd by a vet...
why do you think it is the best method to train horses?
I would also like to say when ever ive seen someone training rollkur on its first day they just yank the head in and tie it there and thats how it stays the horses just had to deal with it!
Could someone please shoot Anky shes A B.I. T.C.H!! she bullies her horses into submission and they have no choice!
Rollkur will soon be banded.
FEI recently said that it dose not support rollkur or hyperflextion on the grounds of mental abuse!!
Gymnasts train from 3 years old to be able to bend themselves like what is shown on here, it would be **Impossible** for a person older than 10 to train and be able to bend like these people even if they spent 50 years trying to do it the couldnt!! and so what is this person trying to say we should ride horses younger and yank there heads into a completely unnatural position??
Plus she showed some contorionists. How is that the same as gymnastics? Are there horses out there that are double-jointed at the poll? Has she seen the skeletal evidence that consistent hyperflexion causes arthiritc bony growths at the poll> Does she ever palpate a rollur victim's poll to see if there is tenderness. I am SO glad to see no comments on here supporting her opinion!
I think if you are pro-rollkur then you clearly don't understand horse anatomy. It's not even so much that is hurts the horse but how un-beneficial it is. When a horse hyperflexes their back lifts so much that their hindquarters no longer come under them.
So they are basically schooling collected movements with the horse just shortening their steps and not really collecting. its not making it harder on the horse necessarily, its just not correct and therefore un-beneficial. Plus the nuchal ligament is over stretched during hyperflexion and that can cause injury to it.
Therefore i must conclude that you simply repeat what you have beed lead to believe, and ONLY because of that I will forgive you for youre extreme stupidity!!
Any idiot who thinks this is a good practice, PLEASE watch the video "if horses could speak".
I dont believe that a 14 yr old with now medical education, or any uderstanding what so ever about the building and function of a horses body, is able to know how this will conflict with the wellbeing and helth of the horse in the long run, you simply have not lived long enough to be able to see the damage over time.
What you wrote in the video is apsolute CRAP, you hear me C-R-A-P.... Those Horses are forced into these positions, they cant breath and cant see. Does it look like its comfortable for them, tuck you nose in one day real tight and walk around outside, can you see were you are going. NO, you can just see your feet. And a gymnast has to work extremely hard to get into those posisions, sometimes they are even forced into them. go get your facts straight, you have no idea what your talking about.
This is absolute nonesense. Most of those extreme gymnasts have a genetic abnormality that causes there tendons and joints to be hyperflexibel. Paired with a lot of training they eventually become able to move like that. And just because they look so gracious and relaxed at the shows does not mean their training is not painful...have you ever wittnessed the training routines? Especially in Chinese acrobat schools? Consider this and all those claims made in that video appear to bet sarcasm
actually gymnasts develop problems later on in life, i have worked at an equine hospital and i have seen what normal everday riding can do to a horses joints and tendons never mind any extra stress, plus gymnasts decide to wreck their bodies horses have no say
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and exactly how do you know they cant breathe? how do you they are in pain? you might think they look like they are in pain but thats not nesessary the case just because of that, I might look sad to you but maybe im happy, you're not relly in a position to judge that.
They are not intelligent enough for that, therefore, if a horse looks like it is in pain, it most likely is. Judging by the stupid theories you have come up with you do not know what you are talking about.
and one more thing, if you haven't noticed, the last pictures you use to illustrate that horses preform with ease being ridden in rollkur, anky does NOT ride rollkur. The horse's head is perfektly leveled. You have got you're cards all mixed up pal! and i want to know who the H**l told you that this is the most benefitial way of training a horse!?
Have you actually, tryed both ways and experienced this for yourself? You know nothing...
i agree with anjdah - the horses at the end are doing those movements with east because they are not being forced into rollkur. i bet if you found some pictures of horses being ridden with rollkur, the story would be completely different.
Why is it Gymnasts go to masage therapists? To cure chronic pain. It 's diffrenet for a horse, he can't exactly tell you it hurts, you have to figure that one out, why do you think dressage horses have suck thick and shortened necks? You are NOT building muscler, you are destroying it!
If the muscle is teared and you if you allow the horse to have it's head constantly down and do not let it have time to recover, more lactic acid seeps in, kills more muscle, tears untill the neck muscles heal unaturaly leading to cramp, poor posture and pain.
This video is just totaly unethical in every possible way... Gymnasts are diffrenet anatomical to a horse, you are compairing two different body structures. Okay pall, let me tell you what happens to muscle when it's being manipulated. The neck muscles naturaly contract when manipulation is used, if the muscle is 'flexed' into a position, latic acid builds , weakining the muscle and killing it. Next, if the tendons tear (which they do) new ones will form, maiking the muscle enlarge, (con)
the rolkur method can also never come close to the amount of roundness and over step from the hind legs that classical dressage can. their backs are too hollow, and driving their front into their quarters is the fast food way of achieving dressage movements, unnatural and lazy. notice with anky that she over leans and bounces around in her seat, you won't see that with true classical riding! but i'm sorry you haven't even witnessed true classical riding seeing as you look at olympic riders.
i'm sure you mean well, but as your so young i do believe that you have never heard of Classical dressage in the purest sense. thoroughbred arent a finer breed, their just easier to hide the hollowing of the back in rolkur. a "normal" horse doesn't tolerate such nonsense. it's not in comparison to gymnists or ballerinas. i am one, when strengthened ballet is the most natural thing i know. i am also a classical trainer who trains the horses who are rejected by the very people who you admire.
she's just very pretty and light infront, but it's fairly easy to see, and you shouldnt have to watch too closely, that her hind legs do bugger all. Except that she looks so lovely and light and free most people eitehr don't see it or ignore it, I guess. But her hindquarters are so slow that in comparison to how her front legs move, it is almost as if off another horse. Salinero is to a lesser degree I think, he just doesn't "sit"as he should, his hindlegs are very striaght in eg piaffe/passage
my god people its not that bad when used by people who know what theyre doing (a perfect example would be anky)... if you really want to fight about stuff on youtube then pick a better topic
In my opinion, no its not bad. In your opinion, it is. Thats fine, no big deal. I can accept that you dont like it. You sould accept that some people do. Fighting over youtube isnt going to change the fact that some people use it. I dont mean to sound rude, and actually I dont think I even made that last comment a reply to you, and if I did then it was a mistake, it wasent said towards you personally. Im sure you love your horse, just as I love mine, even though I use hyperflexation to a degree.
Fuck as far as I am concerned there is no skill what so ever in the way this woman rides. I'm pretty sure anyone could get on a big moving warmblood, haul and a hard curb bit and snaffle, kick it in the guts with spurs and get it to throw it's legs around. I'd love to see Anky and any of todays "top" rider do any of this without a saddle or bridle. That would be true communication and skill. But they would be lost without a way to attach themselves to their horses mouths and backs.
go for gold mate. I just think there are reasons these horses break down, are sold with medication, dribble uncontrollably, their riders can't sit to their extended trot, their hind legs are inactive and trailing, their piaffe/passage also inactive and often behind the vertical/on the forehand. I really would like to see anky ride salli without a saddle or bridle though. or at the very least, without a bridle. must be magic! hahaha
the horses i ride are all trained with hyperflexation and none have anything that you say. im sure anky could ride without a bridle or a saddle, but her horses arent trained to do that
well then you can't be using it to quite the extent these riders do as it seems to manifest the same thing in all of there horses, most of which I've already mentioned. I have nothing against stretching, or slightly behind the vertical etc, obviously that is very good for the horse, but riding them in the hyperflexed position for upwards of half and hour performing all sorts of movements-well it's clear there is something very wrong with the horses subjected to it, you can see it firstly in..
Karyn64, do you have control issues ??? I think you need to analyse yourself. Even so we agree, obviously only a dumb person would agree to such practices, even so we agree you have to continue to pin me down ... this is not people like you who will resolve Rollkur , because you turn people off. I am an animal activist and humor goes a much longer way to make people listen , not to try to control people
I continue to pin you down??? I think you're being a bit paranoid. My post wasn't even aimed entirely at you. You're making yourself a little more important than you actually are.
Stupid videos will bring stupid comments. That video is so ignorant, and try to sugar coat a situation which is appauling with soft dumb music and making comparaisons which are so childish and just plain stupid.
The video is completely off base. Gymasts know their limits. Rollkur forces a horse into a frame that no horse would stay in without being force and complies to due to learned helplessness. No matter how this video tries to candy coat rollkur it is abusive and wrong.
It's not a stupid video. It IMO just shows how desperate some people are to defend rollkur. No gold medals are worth putting a horse through this. Shame on the people who use it.
ha ha haha....retarded .. it sounds like a program for Sesame street or something ... what up with that music ... hahahaha ha ....y'all are so funny ... Rollkur = a little warm up .... retarded ... hahaha ... and then even funnier warmbloods are finer so they can be flxed more ???? they were used as tractors not so long ago .. so that is a flexible breed ... too funny hahaha ... and then if we consider that thes epoor horses are ridden by incompetent riders who force them into these frames .....
as a dressage horse they need to be athletic and gymnastic, obviously. I just have a problem with how it is utilised in europe. Mainly because it pains me to watch top horses who are all front legs and no push or power from behind. They barely seem to use their hind legs at all except to drag them along. Matinee and Gribaldi are great examples of this and possibly even better is Satchmo. It's almost painful for me to watch that horses passage because it's so out of rhythm and disjointed..
in the way that they move. And if your horses aren't showing such signs then you must ride your hyperflexion with much more feel and hopefully to a lesser extreme. That's fine, it must be doing something good. I have a problem with the way these top horses are ridden, it is a circus now, and no longer an art. And obviously they aren't, but I don't think that she could, she relies so much on the hand for her way of riding. There is nothing soft about it at all.
Your right. I dont use it to the degree that they do, simply because they are not ready for it. For a horse to be able to have its head so far behind the vertical, they have to be trained for a very long time. You dont just grab a 3yr old and shove their head down. My warm up is absolutley no rein contact at all, allowing them to stretch out and get their circulation going. I walk like that for 5 min. in each direction and then do the same at the trot for 5 min.
I imagine montys horse would have been trained on seat and leg, though, with very little or no rein aid and no doubt he would have told her how the horse was to be ridden. I've seen that vid. But I was referring to how Anky trains her horses, not on her riding a horse trained to go a different way. I have nothing against a brief use of hyperflexion, as a stretch, you wouldn't (generally) ride a horse long and low for half an hour or so, that doesn't really get you anywhere.
cont. Then I put them into a LDR position for 5 min. at a time with a free walk in between. And at the end of the schooling, I always walk the horse with no rein contact, again stretching out and cooling down. As far as it becoming a circus, I dont beleive that at all. My trainer has a gorgeous 13yr old grand prix hanoverian gelding that I have watched her train. She uses hyperflexation. That horse is the sweetest, well tempered, easy going horse ever. He would sit in your lap if he could.
Anky does not rely on her hands. There is a video of her on here of her riding one of Monty Roberts horses with no rein contact. But I do respect your opinion, and I hope you respect mine. And I do see where you are coming from. But what I am saying is through experience with many different horses all trained with hyperflexation. I hope you arent getting annoyed with me, actually I like hearing others opinions (when they are civilized lol)
I'm pretty sure anything that creates something like that can't be too good for the horse. I've watched it being used and they are none too gentle about it either. I don't understand how people can think it is beneficial to ride a horse so deep with so much pressure on the bits while banging their legs on it's sides. And then the horses show so many signs of abnormal movement/behaviour and distress. And people think it's good?
but of course I respect your opinion, thats your way, I generally find discussions on the topic quite interesting provided people aren't intent on telling or abusing others in saying that their ways the best.
Well from everything I have seen (in person) and ridden I see well trained athletes. None of them have been in distress. But there is no one right way. So I appreciate your in put, and thanks for not going crazy on me :)
I really dont get either side of the arguemet and trying to get enlightened... so does rollkur include all type of collection and suppleness? i see how it doesnt look comfortable but idk it doesnt seem horrible to me but it doesnt seem 100% right either....
I was unaware that a horse and a gymnast are built similar and are doing the same thing. May I hint all the sarcasm in that sentence? Horses are not people, and thus cannot be compared.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
just to disappoint everyone here but hyperflextion can be correct if done properly. It depends on how you warm up a horse. If you let them stretch first and then bring them up into the frame they use their backs and it is correct. If you pull their head in from the top it won't work. So, since i doubt any of you have seen top dressage riders warm up i don't think any of you can say if the rider is doing it correctly of not.
i will disappoint you some more. In proper warm-up the horse is happy. I know this because i ride dressage. When you let a horse stretch down over it's top-line they are happy and relaxed, not in pain. If they were in pain they wouldn't pull the rains right out of your hands to stretch more then you try to collect them.
I've got to disagree, many horses are taught that fighting pain means even more pain. Not all horses will try and escape it, especially when they've been trained to tolerate it.
I disagree with the first sentence of this post. Riding is both an art and a science in and of itself, therefore, science is extremely relevant to the equestrian world, no matter what side of this debate you are on.
I think you do raise some interesting points. I use long-and-low on every single horse I ride. Stretching a horse's back is important, always. However, I have also used rolkur in the past, on my Arab, and he actually lost muscle in his neck from it because we were "faking it" as our trainer said, meaning he had the headset, but wasn't using his muscles. I've found that a more classical style works better for my horses, but since I have a narcissistic Arabian, he makes his own flash :D
I think this video proves some great points but i am still kinda on the fence with this topic. It might not hurt them but it just looks so unatural. I am more of a western rider though and i rather see a collected horse with absolutly no contact then a horse with its nose to its chest foaming at the mouth. But thats just me.
Actually, in western pleasure, horses have no collection. Collection is misinterpreted in America. The German word for it, Schwung, means engagement of the hindquarters, which horses on the American breed circuits lack almost completely. American paints and quarter horses with their staggered gaits and nose-to-the-ground headset are perhaps the least natural movers ever.
Also, foam on the horse's lower lip indicated relaxation and acceptance of the bit. Do your homework.
Sometimes that true in western pleasure, but if done corectly then that shouldent happen. There are people who dont know how to ride there horses in all disiplines. The whole WP world shouldent be judged off of some of there incapable riders.
I wasnt really talking about western pleasure anyway. I was more refering to reining, kinda of the western version of dressage. I would say that is definatly more natural then dressage, the horses ARE collected.
Salinero never sits, and neither do the others. Learn what a sit is, how a true piaffe is to be performed, and you will notice there is no moment of suspension in his piaffe, that he is leaning on the forehand, that he is tense.
Science is important. Just because it proves your theory wrong, does not mean it can just be 'discarded'.
No Krya isn't 'classically trained'. Anyone can say they are, doesn't mean that they practice it. Sjef could go around saying he's classically trained--does that mean he is?
I do agree though, Krya's piaffes are crap.
And, a horse doesn't 'sit in the ring' but not on a pressure board. When the scientists told the riders what they'd found, the riders were floored, because they thought their horses were fine!
Just because the head is low, does not mean the horses is on the forehand. It's called 'long and low'--its in dressage, I don't know if you've heard of it?
No, there isn't anything wrong with a horse being on the forehand, it IS natural. But in the piaffe, it is a highly collected trot--or at least it is supposed to be. The horse should 'sit back' and carry it's weight on the hind end, so its front is light and free. Clearly, that was not happening.
They did this with a NUMBER of grand prix horses, not just one (that's how science works. You have to have a large sample, or your result is flawed). They put them on a pressure board, and whilst BEING RIDDEN, performed a piaffe and such. The board registers where the horse is pressing the hardest--and low and behold, it was the forehand!
Yes, some of them ARE trainers, and most, if not all, work with horses EVERY DAY. When they put a Grand Prix horse on a board that records pounds of pressure, and ask it to perform a piaffe with it's head hyper flexed and most of it's weight is on the forehand, you're just going to ignore that?
What of the HOARDES of pictures that show top level horses in discomfort due to rollkur? Going to ignore those for the sake of your argument, right?
Or, what about the vets? The studies? Going to ignore those too, right?
How old are you really, to go through my videos and comment 'haha' on them? 12? I never said I was a top dressage rider, nor do I claim to be. I'm trying to get you to actually look at what your doing instead of blindly following 'top riders because they win and bring in money'.
Also, do your own research on the own people you quote. Sjef and other riders use Rollkur to get a horse to form abdominal muscles. Which would be good, BUT, the abdominal muscles are forced to COUNTERACT the over-tight lumbar region--aka, the lower back.
I am not 'close minded', I've gone through pages and pages of what people have to say about the positive aspects of rollkur. And I find their logic flawed, because although they are trainers, they are not vets, scientists, etc..
There are HUNDREDS of pictures to support me. And it's not my 'theory', dear, it's anatomical FACT.
Way to attack the person and not the argument on hand--bravo.
Also, GOOD way to prove that rollkur is awesome! TN won't get rid of the 'big lick' walking horses for the SAME reason--those horses may be in pain, but the state gets a ton of money from selling tickets! Rollkur is good--it makes MONEY!
His lower back is locked in place, and remains hollow and is forced to stay that way.
Look at the 'top' dressage riders. Look how hollow most of the horses' backs are.
Do the horse a favor, and /listen/ rather then stick your fingers in your ears when they are showing obvious signs of discomfort. That's not harmony at all, is it?
Also, FEI? Doesn't support Rollkur, and have made statements saying such. Wonder WHY.
For the horses' sake before this gets stupid, look at those being worked 'deep and round'. They are not in severe pain with their eyes rolling back--they are just uncomfortable, unhappy, and being held in a position that forces them to submit.
Using rollkur rides a horse from front to back--he DOES lift his back when worked deep, BUT it is only the front portion of his back.
What a dumbass. Look at the classical writings and actually do some research. NO WHERE does it say, 'the horse should be above/on the vertical... UNLESS he's a skinny TB! Our horses are clearly just thick.'
No shit hyperflexion isn't like those things. It is to state that just because it is used to train (so is putting horses in draw reins, or long shanked bits and yanking them until they move on the forehand in WP) and it 'works', doesn't mean it's right, dear.
Also, someone made the comment that anky and other top riders are winning, so they clearly must be right.
Really?
AQHA quarter horses used to have their blood drained to make them slower, and they won. Must mean that they're right, because other people started doing it too. They used to be drugged constantly, and they won.
TN walking horses are soared and put through constant pain every day, but they win--so clearly, it must be worth it.
Your assumptions are wrong, and quite illogical. Gymnasts (NOT contortionists) can flex their bodies in crazy ways. They are flexible. My horse can touch his chin with his chest too, so Rollkur has nothing to do with flexibility, because ALL horses can do it without training. And two? Gymnasts don't hold these positions for HOURS, NOR ARE THEY MOVING AND LIFTING WEIGHT.
You can't honestly think that classically trained Lipizzaners have their heads on/above the vertical because of body type.
Unfortunately, until the judges in the sport of dressage stop bowing down to the big names and big money sponsors this barbaric practise will not stop. All of these horses are behind the bit 90% of the time and lacking true impulsion and freedom behind. As a trainer and dressage rider myself I would much rather take the extra time to teach my horses 'self carriage' and allow them freedom of movement than be driven by financial gain.
Do a closer study in the horses' anatomy, and you'll find out why hyperflexion is not good for the horse. XD
This way of "streching" does not strengthen nor give any more flexibility to the muscles, anyone would understand that if they bothered to study how the horse work under its surface...
But ofc, why bother when you can take a shortcut like this and live in ignorance? Ignorance IS bliss!
First, I'm still researching hyperflexion and as of yet haven't formed an opinion so I find this informative. As someone who has been around dance for a while I would like to point out two mistakes. #1: Dancers, cheerleaders, and gymnasts who do those extreme moves do not come away unscathed as was insinuated. They suffer everything from stress fractures of the spine to chronic muscle cramps. While some can continue, most dancers literally begin to break down in their 30s.
#2: You stated that "bigger built person" will not be as flexible as a "slender built person." I've actually never seen that to be true. Personally, I fall into the "large frame" category and I out stretch my "slight built" 94 lb friend. It goes back more to good conformation, genetics, and (I think) nutrition that body type or breed (in a horses case.)
"they would not allow themselves to be put in any position that causes strain or distress." Rediculous. Sadly there are some 'trainers' who have forceful, exhausting techniques that wear the horse into submission. Any thinking, equestrian should know that. You need serious help.
@Cookiemonsterz21 What are your medical or anatomical qualifications? ...exactly. Spout your bs to a 90 yr old shoulin monk who has lived that way his whole life (because they do) and is WAY happier and healthier than you are. I'll train a horse with LDR and you do it your sissy ass way and see who's horse is healthier and happier.
jthomas6694 2 months ago
@horsegirlanna Absolutely! Couldn't agree more. All these bleed heart nancies who get all of their bills paid by daddy or hubby have too much time on their hands and need to get a job! Great video!
jthomas6694 2 months ago
finally someone has the guts to stick up for us real riders! i'm sick of all these couch potatoes sitting behind their computer screens criticizing something they really don't understand. They just read books and watch videos, then try to knock down people who have worked really hard to develop their skills. these critics should sit on a modern warmblood and see how friggin hard these horses are to ride. theyd have more appreciation for how tough this sport is and why we do what we do.
horsegirlanna 5 months ago
@horsegirlanna You are so right! I don't think that we all should ride rollkur everyday for hours, but stretching and bending up to a certain point doesn't hurt a horse. And as you say most of the people arguing about rollkur are not able to ride their horse with any connection, so that their horses walk like camels heads up with short and stiff backs. how can these people talk about swinging backs? about riding passage and piaffe? they do not know what they are talking about.
1010nicole1010 2 months ago
@IrisMaeConn WRONG! you can have opinions on undecided matters. You can't however ignore scientific FACTS and say that it is just your opinion. If i say i want to feed my horse catfood because it makes cats healthy and so it is my 'opinion' that it is healthy for my horse...what would you say? that i'm stupid! You all trot along with Anky and her lies. The judges are wrong and Jaccko is wrong. Please get wise! check the facts and join the right side! Don't defend wrong information! ever!
jinxeybaby 6 months ago
You are dead wrong. And gymnists are people who make that choice. They destroy their body's. Forget it, it is not healthy. Rollkur is unnatural for the horse. This can be seen by the lack of hindleg engagement. The action of the front is disproportionate tot te back. A healthy way for a horse to walk is in balance and with the weight on the hindlegs. A rider and wel respected vet prooved it is unhealthy! And you make a naieve and wrong propaganda movie for this! who do you think you are?
jinxeybaby 6 months ago
This is so frustrating!! i admire you for explaining your views on this because its a bit of a contravertial subject, its like the new anti hunting debate!!
i want to find out more about this but there are 2 sides to every areguement and it seems both sides miss out huge bits of info that negatively effect their arguement
this is the first time i have seen hyperflexion explained in this way and it does make sense, i just need to find a neutral person who can explain both sides!! thanks xx
xXxNikixMxXx 1 year ago
@xXxNikixMxXx I know what you mean, I'm kinda neutral on the whole thing myself because I understand both sides of the argument. Studies have shown that continuous rollkur can have negative long term effects, but it also creates flexability and gives the horse the ability to preform to the highest level they can. I think in the hands of someone who knows how to do it properly it is okay. I guess you kinda have to decide what your opinion is? x
AshleighM82 6 months ago
@AshleighM82 I think you are right. It is like most of the time, we have to find the middleway. not rolling too much and too long (until the tongue is blue) but as well not riding without reign contact, because you can see the high horsehead and inactive hindlegs leading to a short and sore back. and the rider should take care of a relaxed horseback, to prevent from kissing spines.
1010nicole1010 2 months ago
If you watch a horse in the field, they can perform the movements seen in a dressage arena. My 4 year old has performed piaffe, spanish walk and a doux passage in the field- he's never been trained any of these movements but has the ability to do these in the field. He's not had any training in Hyperflexion nor has he been ridden much as he's doing a lot of groundwork.
lassiesuca 1 year ago
@lassiesuca Horses do NOT need to be stretched in such an extreme way as you say they should- these horses are already capable of doing this, and gentle stretching and gymnastic exercises can help suppleness and increase collection. There is no need for such a stretch.
lassiesuca 1 year ago
there is a BIG DIFFERENCE: a gymnast does that because he wants to. DID YOU EVER ask a horse? if you know the horse's speech, you'll see that most of them are in pain. their eyes are wide open, the tail beats up and down and they dont chew their bits. it shows the pain. ARE YOU BLIND???
cholerischerKeks 1 year ago
Cont'd ...BTW - if the heavier, old-fashioned horses were less flexible, surely they would need to be ridden more in hyperflexion, not less? So now, with the modern horses, you don't need rollkur any more, because they are already flexible... it doesn't make sense. The tests are much flashier now, certainly - but distinctly at odds with the requirements of the rule book, which states, among other things, that nothing should be forced. I'm not sure who actually reads the thing any more...
bobzcobz 1 year ago
The humans shown are mainly contortionists, not gymnasts - they learn to force themselves into these positions from an early age and will most likely suffer arthritis later in life. Besides, a human (we hope) can choose when to stop . The 'loose contact' shown can only be maintained momentarily, a horse is unable to hold that position voluntarily for more than a couple of seconds - that's why their mouths have to be shut with crank nosebands so they can't evade the bit....
bobzcobz 1 year ago
I think you're missing the (many) points people who are anti-hyperflexion make. Hyperflexion is not about gymnastic training (try caveletti for that), nor is it about elasticity (rollkur destroys swing and elasticity). It's about the pain caused to the horse's mouth from unrelenting bit pressure, the neck through hyperflexion of the spine, and the oesophagus through occlusion. The horse is a very inflexible animal. Go and learn about horse bio-mechanics then review your video.
platypussy79 1 year ago 8
@platypussy79 sorry hunny - but horses are very flexible, especially with their necks.
Jaccko14 1 year ago
@Jaccko14 The person who has posted this video is only trying to explain her opinion, there are many opinions on this subject and we should respect them all
IrisMaeConn 8 months ago
@Jaccko14 Jeah, I'm sure if you had any anatomic or medical knowledge of both horses and athletes you would see that it is nonsense that hyperflexion as well as many flexibility tricks some gymnasts use are poison for a horse's or human's health.
Sure thing that horses enjoy hyperflexion... just look at their eyes and you'll see they're suffering.
Cookiemonsterz21 2 months ago
@Jaccko14 It's unnatural for the poor horse! The sight is effected how about you walk around with your chin on your chest and try and feel comfy like that also whilst trying to see where your going.. Oh and throw a bit in your mouth and get someone to yank you in that position... Rollkur is vile.
sno3006 2 weeks ago
@platypussy79 If your so concerned about the pressures placed on horses, DONT RIDE!
MrSamwebster 10 months ago
You are so f***** stupid! Ok so its not just the horses chin touching its chest that makes rollkur wrong, its the fact that the riders put so much pressure on the reins! Also when a horse is being ridden deep and round they loose all impulsion in the hind end thus loosing everything the rider strove to achieve! AND the reason the rider in classical dressage did not use the hyperflexion method on the lipizzaners was not because they are of "heavy" build, but cause they dont belive in the method!
IRide4TheBlue 1 year ago
Do those horses look relaxed and happy?
NO THEY DONT
Rolkur can cause damage to the windpipe and throat
completely torture
pinkweaselgirl 1 year ago
this is positively vile and makes me feel sick to watch. What messed up creatures the human race is. Dressage should show the natural flow of the horses movement. Dressage lost that plot years ago.
mattben2101 2 years ago 6
....and this achieves WHAT exactly in order to train your horse in accordance with the FEI RULES?
It has been shown the RK tenses the back muscles making the horse physically UNABLE to swing the hind legs under the body - this goes completely against the WHOLE concept of Dressage !
BanRollkur 2 years ago 7
Totally agree.
glenroyvillas 2 years ago
Never seen an olympic gymnast attempt any routine requiring running or walking with their heads tied to their chest. Nor a track athlete for that matter. Since when has a thoroughbred been bred to be "fine"? It was bred to race full pelt on a racecourse with it's head out in front for balance and speed. Lippizanners were trained over 10 years or more to do what they do, in proper collection and balance. Show me a horse being trained using rollkur that has balance and cadence?
glenroyvillas 2 years ago 3
And do you think all trainers take the time to gradually introduce a horse into this hyper flexion? No, just like Saddlebred trainers, these horses are being forced to do unnatural things without having the build to back it up.
HoofBeatZ1800 2 years ago
I can see what you are trying to prove, but I don't think you have the science to back it up at all. Horses are completely different than humans. How they carry their heads determines their balance. If we force them into these positions, they are never properly balanced. Horses eyes are on the sides of their heads, and with their necks like this, they cannot see what is in front of them. And BTW, gymnasts aren't super humans. If you think they do all that without long-term you're wrong.
HoofBeatZ1800 2 years ago
Rollkur is not damaging to the horse? It causes pressure on the vertebrae, chokes the horse and vision is restricted and new bones grow on the back of the skull from the stress of over flexion. And perhaps you should watch the video of the blue tongued horse at the world cup.
astrophel94 2 years ago 6
totally right there, funny how most people disagree with such inhumane method. ;)
lassiesuca 2 years ago
may I also add, that the facts in there are a load of bollox- you critiqued my anti rollkur video, so I will do it to your rollkur one, firstly, the comparison of horses which are heavier and those that aren't - one, the Spanish Riding School horses perform exactly the same movements as those of a warmblood 'finer type' - yet none of this Rollkur abuse is needed in achieving it, because all of the SRS horses are supple and most importantly happy. They don't need there heads forced down ... (tbc)
lassiesuca 2 years ago 4
lol thats fine i honestly couldnt give two hoots what you think thats your opinion and you can have that.
Jaccko14 2 years ago
or you have nothing to say in response to my comment.
So why is it that heavier bred horses are capable of doing these things without the extensive use or any use of roll-kur?? I am intreguied in finding out..
lassiesuca 2 years ago
as long as you dont bite my head off! to start with any horse is capable of grandprix work without the use of hyperflexion. Hyperflexion is simply just another approach. And as the video says, the heavier built horses are not as flexible as todays performance horses.
Jaccko14 2 years ago
that wasn't really an answer was it ? But with proof that Roll Kur is damaging to the horse, why do you need to perform something which is damaging to a horse. Tbh any horse could be ridden in the Rollkur position, however, heavier horses are total proof that you don't need this sort of training in order to achieve harmony and balance. Tbh modern dressage is being destroyed by these sorts of methods. How can you claim to like classical, when you are for Anky- makes no sense whatsoever.:S
lassiesuca 2 years ago 4
Whats tbh? It is not damaging to the horse, so therefore there is no problem training like that. Modern dressage is not destroying anything. There are plenty of competition riders who dont train like that. I really enjoy watching classical dressage and airs above the ground, but i also understand ankys method and what it has brought to the sport is incredible. So infact, it does make sense. It just means i understand both sides.
Jaccko14 2 years ago
What has Anky's method brought to the sport!! NOthing!! Her method goes completely against the laws of classical horsemanship and dressage! Dressage is all about impulsion from the hind end and lightness. YOU LOSE BOTH OF THOSE THINGS WHEN YOU HYPERFLEX YOUR HORSE! Wake up and smell the fresh air! But if you want to go ruin your horse go right ahead. But when you're stuck at a lower level because you chose not to train your horse correctly don t go crying to youtube to post some silly sob story!
IRide4TheBlue 1 year ago
@Jaccko14 Sorry but all of anky's accheivments are nothing to the stuff that you achieve in classical dressage and you do it without pain. Anky is ridiculous for putting a horses head in that posistion in the first place! Gymnasts have a choice to put themselves in stupid shapes horses just get held there. There is a BIG difference and i think you need to study the horse and how it works a bit more! My horse was ridden rollkur and got kissing spine, proof it hurts!
DeathKitty123456 1 year ago
A gymnast does these things by choice, they want to do this, however the horse has no say in the things we do to him, its the rider, classical riders such as Philippe Karl can perform Grand Prix equivalent movements such as piaffe and piroutte and he doesn't need to hyperflex his horse to enable them to do this. Your video is a load of tot, and makes no sense. Like I said, the horse has no choice in the things we force him to do, a gymnast choses to do that.
lassiesuca 2 years ago 3
..cont) or nor do they need the horses mouth to be shut in a noseband, and gadgets in order to get a horses head down- so why bother causing the horse extra damage and pain when these 'heavier' breeds are capable of doing things, also, if you watch a classically trained horse, compared to a dressage horse, there is much less tension, less force and no cruel training methods involved. There is no scienfical proof that rollkur is okay- except 'Anky and Sjef' words of 'wisdom' LOL this is bollox.
lassiesuca 2 years ago
@lassiesuca, I have looked and the only good thing I could find Philipe Karl doing was a piaffe. It was a very good piaffe, but I can't find footage of him doing ANYTHING else that looked good. If you know of any, let me know because so far I am unimpressed by him.
UltimateDQ 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Rollkur has its benefits. If a horse is traine correctly for it, and is in the right hands, it isn't cruel or painful.
flamethrower136 2 years ago
@flamethrower136
So there is a correct way to cram your horses muzzle into its chest without hurting it??
Who knew!!!
Benefits...dumped on forehand, strung out hind end, broke at third vertabre, tension, can't swallow correctly, tore up mouth and tongue, no hind end impulsion, lack of relaxation, learned helplessness, the list goes on.
All sound good to me!!
Karyn64 2 years ago 2
Look, I'm not saying I approve of rollkur, or that I would ever ride with it myself. I do prefer a nice, on-the-bit horse. But I have read that it doesn't hurt if the horse is trained correctly, and that it can have benefits - at least if it is done for about 30 seconds, no longer. Of course, those websites could be wrong. ;)
flamethrower136 2 years ago
@flamethrower136
The people that write about all the *good* from rollkur are the ones who use it and doing all the damage control that they can before the FEI bans it in the warm up arenas. If they only did it for less than 30 seconds it would still be bad to but more tolerated. Thing is they don't fo long periods of time. One *pro* rider was video taped ridng like this at a warm up for nearly two hours. Sick!
I have yet to see any benefits from this abuse.
Glad you stick to classical:)
Karyn64 2 years ago
I've heard tnat it makes the horse more supple. And by "short periods of time" I mean when the horse isn't moving.
I do agree with you that people shouldn't be riding like this for long periods of time, especially two hours! That IS sick. I've seen slowmotion videos where they show rollkur positions and the horses are so clearly in so much pain.
In that case, I am definately against using rollkur when the horse is moving forward, and for no more than 30 seconds when standing still. :)
flamethrower136 2 years ago
it hurts, they can't breath like they should when they're in that position
1411Lynneke 2 years ago 2
why would they not be able to breath? Don't give me Theresa Sandin's crap, the airway is nothing like a hoze! It has cartilage rings, so it's like the bendy part of a straw.
Tnx Jaccko, finally someone who'se understood hyperflexion!
Floortjahh 2 years ago
you can obiusly se , that is NOT natural for any horse :s
xDjickox 2 years ago
No Human Gymnastic Coach, even on the olympic level, would request for their student athlete to hold a contorted,deep stretch for more than 30seconds. Most of these stretches are asked of the athlete at 3 seconds max.
And somethings else i do not understand is the reason for putting weight on top of the stretched ligaments and muscle tissue. This does not make any sense to me and sounds very painful to have pressure on a tightly stretched muscle.
county1007 2 years ago 5
I do carrot stretches that resemble a rolkur movement but i do not sit on horse during stretch and i do not hold the horse there beyond 10 sec...30 sec max. I was a gymnast for 8 years and it was always advised to never hold a super flexed position for more than 30seconds, it disrupts tendons,ligaments and damages muscle tissue. I have never seen a horse released from this stretch after 30 seconds, instead held for minimum of 15 min which is damaging according to scientific evidence and study.
county1007 2 years ago 5
Ive yet to see a gymnast forced to adopt positions with 2 bits in her mouth and spurs in her sides.
sarahlouisefox 2 years ago 4
You are so poorly educated on so many levels- have you ever actually studied physiology or anatomy at all??
And how many top level gymnasts do you see healthy and functioning into old age?? The strain they put on their bodies to perform those moves is immense and they pay the price later in life. But that is their choice- it is not our place to make a similar choice for our horses
TedandQuenza 2 years ago 6
thanks Jaccko, so many propaganda type clips out there purporting the "cruelty" of rollkur as a training aid, nice to see someone a little less negatively biased out there. Highly emotive topic isn't it?! LOL
TheT2YA 2 years ago
FFS this is the biggest pile of shite I've ever read on the subject. Ill informed and just plain wrong. Rollkur is never right-end of ! How dare you try to compare what , so called, top trainers do to horses who don't have a choice, to gymnasts. I wonder how many gymnasts you can find that are forced into these positons against their will and then 'strapped' there? if you think this is anywhere near right then you're a dumbass and not a horse lover at all.
StuartnPooh 2 years ago 4
You say a horse is not like a human - and then go and compare it to a gymnast? Eeeerrrm - how does that work?
Seesh idiot, rollkur is ridiculous and needs banning. End off. You can not justify it.
piratesmith 2 years ago 4
no need for 'overbending' just teh 'down on the bit' is good enough!
lexipuppy18 2 years ago
this is the biggest load of bollox ive ever seen in all my life! anyone who knows anything about how top tiders and top horses on a yard they know that it is not done how uve put it across in this video! these horses work in this way cuz they have the shit beaten out of em nd have their mouth pulled to peices and draw reins on until they learn not to move their head.. ive worked on an international dressage yard so i would know.. this is bollox
dressagexdiva 2 years ago 2
1:19 not loose bloody contact its a pelham and has 2 sets of reins!!! The top rein has a contact and the bottom rein is only used to bring the head "down" every so often (when the horse resists). And with a strong bit in a sensitive area they have no choice but to shove there heads into their chests, resisting hurts them too much! And the last 3 pics aren't hyperflexion those horses are working correctly on the vertical (on the bit) Hyperflexion is cruel and painful on the vertical is natural!
DeathKitty123456 2 years ago
and you are confused terribly---contortionists are not the same as gymnasts and don't run arounf an arena with their bodies contorted!!!
rollkurisbad 2 years ago
Jacco you are a very misled little girl. i feel so sorry for Woody!!!!
rollkurisbad 2 years ago
Wow Jaccko...you found ...what...one picture with the reins semI loose? How many can you find NOT loose and the riders even leaning back on them?? A lot!
Karyn64 2 years ago 2
And the snaffle reins were not loose, just the curb reins. We are not blind! And as for the 'thrend' towards lighter built horses, just the opposite is really happening because of the move towards warmbloods!
bbbask 2 years ago
obviously anyone with knowledge of equine anatomy can not be pro-rollkur. stretching and building muscle groups as a gymnist is not the same as isolating and over-tensioning something like the nuchal ligament... and if these horses are not being 'forced', why is no one able to demonstrate it in a halter, etc?
rosetreader 2 years ago 14
amen!
bbbask 2 years ago
@rosetreader Well said!!
bbbask 1 year ago
Extreme flexibility of the nuchal ligament is not a priority in dressage. What we are aiming for is a horse that can carry a rider with such ease that he can move just as well undersaddle as he can when free. Streching and flexing the neck is not necessary, as it does not help a horse carry his rider well. Therefor, rollkur is an essentially useless training aid for this sport.
equestrian161 2 years ago 4
you forgot the end of the live of a gymnast, which is the same as the end of a horse trained this way (rollkur)...
at the age of 30, the body of a gymnast is completely destroyed! the muscles are "over-bent" and they have problems with every movement they do...
with "rollkur-trained" horses it's the same and if the first damages appear, which decrease It's outward appeareance at tournaments, the horse'll be sold or killd by a vet...
why do you think it is the best method to train horses?
Luna1anuL 2 years ago 4
I would also like to say when ever ive seen someone training rollkur on its first day they just yank the head in and tie it there and thats how it stays the horses just had to deal with it!
Could someone please shoot Anky shes A B.I. T.C.H!! she bullies her horses into submission and they have no choice!
Rollkur will soon be banded.
FEI recently said that it dose not support rollkur or hyperflextion on the grounds of mental abuse!!
Littlekat909 2 years ago 6
What idiot made this video ??
Gymnasts train from 3 years old to be able to bend themselves like what is shown on here, it would be **Impossible** for a person older than 10 to train and be able to bend like these people even if they spent 50 years trying to do it the couldnt!! and so what is this person trying to say we should ride horses younger and yank there heads into a completely unnatural position??
Littlekat909 2 years ago 2
Plus she showed some contorionists. How is that the same as gymnastics? Are there horses out there that are double-jointed at the poll? Has she seen the skeletal evidence that consistent hyperflexion causes arthiritc bony growths at the poll> Does she ever palpate a rollur victim's poll to see if there is tenderness. I am SO glad to see no comments on here supporting her opinion!
bbbask 2 years ago
I think if you are pro-rollkur then you clearly don't understand horse anatomy. It's not even so much that is hurts the horse but how un-beneficial it is. When a horse hyperflexes their back lifts so much that their hindquarters no longer come under them.
A168HJ 2 years ago 6
So they are basically schooling collected movements with the horse just shortening their steps and not really collecting. its not making it harder on the horse necessarily, its just not correct and therefore un-beneficial. Plus the nuchal ligament is over stretched during hyperflexion and that can cause injury to it.
A168HJ 2 years ago 6
exactly. False collection, false "training" (if you call forcing actions by inflicting pain 'training'
rollkurisbad 2 years ago 2
Therefore i must conclude that you simply repeat what you have beed lead to believe, and ONLY because of that I will forgive you for youre extreme stupidity!!
anjdah 2 years ago 6
Any idiot who thinks this is a good practice, PLEASE watch the video "if horses could speak".
I dont believe that a 14 yr old with now medical education, or any uderstanding what so ever about the building and function of a horses body, is able to know how this will conflict with the wellbeing and helth of the horse in the long run, you simply have not lived long enough to be able to see the damage over time.
anjdah 2 years ago 8
What you wrote in the video is apsolute CRAP, you hear me C-R-A-P.... Those Horses are forced into these positions, they cant breath and cant see. Does it look like its comfortable for them, tuck you nose in one day real tight and walk around outside, can you see were you are going. NO, you can just see your feet. And a gymnast has to work extremely hard to get into those posisions, sometimes they are even forced into them. go get your facts straight, you have no idea what your talking about.
Agilitypoodle385 2 years ago 6
This is absolute nonesense. Most of those extreme gymnasts have a genetic abnormality that causes there tendons and joints to be hyperflexibel. Paired with a lot of training they eventually become able to move like that. And just because they look so gracious and relaxed at the shows does not mean their training is not painful...have you ever wittnessed the training routines? Especially in Chinese acrobat schools? Consider this and all those claims made in that video appear to bet sarcasm
eliwagarcom 2 years ago 5
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Love the video! you made a good point there :D
zangersheide93 2 years ago
actually gymnasts develop problems later on in life, i have worked at an equine hospital and i have seen what normal everday riding can do to a horses joints and tendons never mind any extra stress, plus gymnasts decide to wreck their bodies horses have no say
Passion4Equus 2 years ago
That is all BS
Those horses are in pain
and they can't breath
yet no one seems to care
rullker has no place in dressage,
Zanthra101 2 years ago 14
This comment has received too many negative votes show
and exactly how do you know they cant breathe? how do you they are in pain? you might think they look like they are in pain but thats not nesessary the case just because of that, I might look sad to you but maybe im happy, you're not relly in a position to judge that.
Minga90ame 2 years ago
One thing is for sure: Horses never lie!
They are not intelligent enough for that, therefore, if a horse looks like it is in pain, it most likely is. Judging by the stupid theories you have come up with you do not know what you are talking about.
Do you're reasearch better next time..
anjdah 2 years ago 2
and one more thing, if you haven't noticed, the last pictures you use to illustrate that horses preform with ease being ridden in rollkur, anky does NOT ride rollkur. The horse's head is perfektly leveled. You have got you're cards all mixed up pal! and i want to know who the H**l told you that this is the most benefitial way of training a horse!?
Have you actually, tryed both ways and experienced this for yourself? You know nothing...
anjdah 2 years ago
i agree with anjdah - the horses at the end are doing those movements with east because they are not being forced into rollkur. i bet if you found some pictures of horses being ridden with rollkur, the story would be completely different.
Agilitypoodle385 2 years ago
@Zanthra101 No place in any discipline for that matter
bbbask 1 year ago
No, no killing involved here. Just interested to know whos ideologies you are following, considering your age.
derstraza 3 years ago
Jaccko14: Who is your trainer...?!
derstraza 3 years ago
iyooooooooooo ponmelo en español pìchaaaaaaaa
ZYCSIETE 3 years ago
rollkur controdicts dressage, as dressage is meant to use the movements that horses would do naturally, and put together like a dance.
Rollkerr is does not occur naturally, therefore it does not have a place in dressage
XoXxeventerxXoX 3 years ago 7
amen!
Aceyfacey3 3 years ago
Maybe didn't know taht horses and humans have a bit different physics? If you ride the horse in rollkur is it a miracle that it even can breathe!
Idaho1989 3 years ago 2
Why is it Gymnasts go to masage therapists? To cure chronic pain. It 's diffrenet for a horse, he can't exactly tell you it hurts, you have to figure that one out, why do you think dressage horses have suck thick and shortened necks? You are NOT building muscler, you are destroying it!
ToeiTails 3 years ago 3
If the muscle is teared and you if you allow the horse to have it's head constantly down and do not let it have time to recover, more lactic acid seeps in, kills more muscle, tears untill the neck muscles heal unaturaly leading to cramp, poor posture and pain.
ToeiTails 3 years ago 2
This video is just totaly unethical in every possible way... Gymnasts are diffrenet anatomical to a horse, you are compairing two different body structures. Okay pall, let me tell you what happens to muscle when it's being manipulated. The neck muscles naturaly contract when manipulation is used, if the muscle is 'flexed' into a position, latic acid builds , weakining the muscle and killing it. Next, if the tendons tear (which they do) new ones will form, maiking the muscle enlarge, (con)
ToeiTails 3 years ago 2
i will be posting photo clips of classical dressage in it's purest sense in a few months
Verdii87 3 years ago
the rolkur method can also never come close to the amount of roundness and over step from the hind legs that classical dressage can. their backs are too hollow, and driving their front into their quarters is the fast food way of achieving dressage movements, unnatural and lazy. notice with anky that she over leans and bounces around in her seat, you won't see that with true classical riding! but i'm sorry you haven't even witnessed true classical riding seeing as you look at olympic riders.
Verdii87 3 years ago 3
i'm sure you mean well, but as your so young i do believe that you have never heard of Classical dressage in the purest sense. thoroughbred arent a finer breed, their just easier to hide the hollowing of the back in rolkur. a "normal" horse doesn't tolerate such nonsense. it's not in comparison to gymnists or ballerinas. i am one, when strengthened ballet is the most natural thing i know. i am also a classical trainer who trains the horses who are rejected by the very people who you admire.
Verdii87 3 years ago 2
i like matine, i think she's very cute and willing, she just moves very strangely
Germaination 3 years ago
she's just very pretty and light infront, but it's fairly easy to see, and you shouldnt have to watch too closely, that her hind legs do bugger all. Except that she looks so lovely and light and free most people eitehr don't see it or ignore it, I guess. But her hindquarters are so slow that in comparison to how her front legs move, it is almost as if off another horse. Salinero is to a lesser degree I think, he just doesn't "sit"as he should, his hindlegs are very striaght in eg piaffe/passage
Germaination 3 years ago
Rollkur = invented by a frickin' BULLSHIT ARTIST.
The horses CAN'T frickin' BREATHE PROPERLY!!!
And they can't say "ow, that hurts" or "I have a cramp in my neck, please stop!"
Horses are prey animals - they will put up with and hide a great deal of pain. It's a matter of survival to them.
Totally not worth a few medals and ribbons.
darklegacy416 3 years ago
my god people its not that bad when used by people who know what theyre doing (a perfect example would be anky)... if you really want to fight about stuff on youtube then pick a better topic
bcbeaupied 3 years ago
So there is a right and a wrong way to cram your horses chin in its chest? Give me a break.
And it's *not that bad*? How bad does something have to be before it's considered abuse?
Karyn64 3 years ago
In my opinion, no its not bad. In your opinion, it is. Thats fine, no big deal. I can accept that you dont like it. You sould accept that some people do. Fighting over youtube isnt going to change the fact that some people use it. I dont mean to sound rude, and actually I dont think I even made that last comment a reply to you, and if I did then it was a mistake, it wasent said towards you personally. Im sure you love your horse, just as I love mine, even though I use hyperflexation to a degree.
bcbeaupied 3 years ago
Fuck as far as I am concerned there is no skill what so ever in the way this woman rides. I'm pretty sure anyone could get on a big moving warmblood, haul and a hard curb bit and snaffle, kick it in the guts with spurs and get it to throw it's legs around. I'd love to see Anky and any of todays "top" rider do any of this without a saddle or bridle. That would be true communication and skill. But they would be lost without a way to attach themselves to their horses mouths and backs.
Germaination 3 years ago
Well, you can think that. Everybody is entiled to their opinion, so let me have mine.
bcbeaupied 3 years ago
go for gold mate. I just think there are reasons these horses break down, are sold with medication, dribble uncontrollably, their riders can't sit to their extended trot, their hind legs are inactive and trailing, their piaffe/passage also inactive and often behind the vertical/on the forehand. I really would like to see anky ride salli without a saddle or bridle though. or at the very least, without a bridle. must be magic! hahaha
Germaination 3 years ago
the horses i ride are all trained with hyperflexation and none have anything that you say. im sure anky could ride without a bridle or a saddle, but her horses arent trained to do that
bcbeaupied 3 years ago
well then you can't be using it to quite the extent these riders do as it seems to manifest the same thing in all of there horses, most of which I've already mentioned. I have nothing against stretching, or slightly behind the vertical etc, obviously that is very good for the horse, but riding them in the hyperflexed position for upwards of half and hour performing all sorts of movements-well it's clear there is something very wrong with the horses subjected to it, you can see it firstly in..
Germaination 3 years ago
Karyn64, do you have control issues ??? I think you need to analyse yourself. Even so we agree, obviously only a dumb person would agree to such practices, even so we agree you have to continue to pin me down ... this is not people like you who will resolve Rollkur , because you turn people off. I am an animal activist and humor goes a much longer way to make people listen , not to try to control people
Sterlingevreux 3 years ago
I continue to pin you down??? I think you're being a bit paranoid. My post wasn't even aimed entirely at you. You're making yourself a little more important than you actually are.
Karyn64 3 years ago
Stupid videos will bring stupid comments. That video is so ignorant, and try to sugar coat a situation which is appauling with soft dumb music and making comparaisons which are so childish and just plain stupid.
Sterlingevreux 3 years ago
The video is completely off base. Gymasts know their limits. Rollkur forces a horse into a frame that no horse would stay in without being force and complies to due to learned helplessness. No matter how this video tries to candy coat rollkur it is abusive and wrong.
It's not a stupid video. It IMO just shows how desperate some people are to defend rollkur. No gold medals are worth putting a horse through this. Shame on the people who use it.
So I guess we agree.
Karyn64 3 years ago
ha ha haha....retarded .. it sounds like a program for Sesame street or something ... what up with that music ... hahahaha ha ....y'all are so funny ... Rollkur = a little warm up .... retarded ... hahaha ... and then even funnier warmbloods are finer so they can be flxed more ???? they were used as tractors not so long ago .. so that is a flexible breed ... too funny hahaha ... and then if we consider that thes epoor horses are ridden by incompetent riders who force them into these frames .....
Sterlingevreux 3 years ago
Are you a 12 year old or what??
Karyn64 3 years ago
pleeeease speak in proper sentences so we can sort of understand what you're saying..
HunterJumperGirl40 3 years ago
are you talking to me? i know this wasent a reply to me but im just curious.
bcbeaupied 3 years ago
no the person who was like hahaha...randomworkds...hahah oh woww, hahha ya tuck their heads in...hahahah
HunterJumperGirl40 3 years ago
hahaha okay thanks for replying :) i was thinking to myself "oh man i hate it when i dont check for typos" lol
bcbeaupied 3 years ago
as a dressage horse they need to be athletic and gymnastic, obviously. I just have a problem with how it is utilised in europe. Mainly because it pains me to watch top horses who are all front legs and no push or power from behind. They barely seem to use their hind legs at all except to drag them along. Matinee and Gribaldi are great examples of this and possibly even better is Satchmo. It's almost painful for me to watch that horses passage because it's so out of rhythm and disjointed..
Germaination 3 years ago
in the way that they move. And if your horses aren't showing such signs then you must ride your hyperflexion with much more feel and hopefully to a lesser extreme. That's fine, it must be doing something good. I have a problem with the way these top horses are ridden, it is a circus now, and no longer an art. And obviously they aren't, but I don't think that she could, she relies so much on the hand for her way of riding. There is nothing soft about it at all.
Germaination 3 years ago
Your right. I dont use it to the degree that they do, simply because they are not ready for it. For a horse to be able to have its head so far behind the vertical, they have to be trained for a very long time. You dont just grab a 3yr old and shove their head down. My warm up is absolutley no rein contact at all, allowing them to stretch out and get their circulation going. I walk like that for 5 min. in each direction and then do the same at the trot for 5 min.
bcbeaupied 3 years ago
I imagine montys horse would have been trained on seat and leg, though, with very little or no rein aid and no doubt he would have told her how the horse was to be ridden. I've seen that vid. But I was referring to how Anky trains her horses, not on her riding a horse trained to go a different way. I have nothing against a brief use of hyperflexion, as a stretch, you wouldn't (generally) ride a horse long and low for half an hour or so, that doesn't really get you anywhere.
Germaination 3 years ago
cont. Then I put them into a LDR position for 5 min. at a time with a free walk in between. And at the end of the schooling, I always walk the horse with no rein contact, again stretching out and cooling down. As far as it becoming a circus, I dont beleive that at all. My trainer has a gorgeous 13yr old grand prix hanoverian gelding that I have watched her train. She uses hyperflexation. That horse is the sweetest, well tempered, easy going horse ever. He would sit in your lap if he could.
bcbeaupied 3 years ago
cont. again lol
Anky does not rely on her hands. There is a video of her on here of her riding one of Monty Roberts horses with no rein contact. But I do respect your opinion, and I hope you respect mine. And I do see where you are coming from. But what I am saying is through experience with many different horses all trained with hyperflexation. I hope you arent getting annoyed with me, actually I like hearing others opinions (when they are civilized lol)
bcbeaupied 3 years ago
I'm pretty sure anything that creates something like that can't be too good for the horse. I've watched it being used and they are none too gentle about it either. I don't understand how people can think it is beneficial to ride a horse so deep with so much pressure on the bits while banging their legs on it's sides. And then the horses show so many signs of abnormal movement/behaviour and distress. And people think it's good?
Germaination 3 years ago
but of course I respect your opinion, thats your way, I generally find discussions on the topic quite interesting provided people aren't intent on telling or abusing others in saying that their ways the best.
Germaination 3 years ago
Well from everything I have seen (in person) and ridden I see well trained athletes. None of them have been in distress. But there is no one right way. So I appreciate your in put, and thanks for not going crazy on me :)
bcbeaupied 3 years ago
I really dont get either side of the arguemet and trying to get enlightened... so does rollkur include all type of collection and suppleness? i see how it doesnt look comfortable but idk it doesnt seem horrible to me but it doesnt seem 100% right either....
kaitlyn4925 3 years ago
I was unaware that a horse and a gymnast are built similar and are doing the same thing. May I hint all the sarcasm in that sentence? Horses are not people, and thus cannot be compared.
DivineDragonEyes 3 years ago
Anky would sure show that nose crammed on the chest is how it's done.
Karyn64 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
just to disappoint everyone here but hyperflextion can be correct if done properly. It depends on how you warm up a horse. If you let them stretch first and then bring them up into the frame they use their backs and it is correct. If you pull their head in from the top it won't work. So, since i doubt any of you have seen top dressage riders warm up i don't think any of you can say if the rider is doing it correctly of not.
JumpItTrumpIt 3 years ago
You mean there is a right and a wrong way to crank your horses chin into it's chest? Who knew!
It looks even worse at the warm ups. You can see the helpless and pained look in the horses eyes much more clearly. Sickening!
There is NO excuse for this abuse. Just keep your rose colored glasses on and pretend it's all good.
Karyn64 3 years ago 3
You didn't read my message did you.
Just keep the rose colored glasses on and everything will butterflies and sunshine in the rollkur world.
Oh, here. I copy what I wrote for you so you don't have look for it.
"It looks even worse at the warm ups. You can see the helpless and pained look in the horses eyes much more clearly. Sickening!"
Karyn64 3 years ago
i will disappoint you some more. In proper warm-up the horse is happy. I know this because i ride dressage. When you let a horse stretch down over it's top-line they are happy and relaxed, not in pain. If they were in pain they wouldn't pull the rains right out of your hands to stretch more then you try to collect them.
JumpItTrumpIt 3 years ago
I've got to disagree, many horses are taught that fighting pain means even more pain. Not all horses will try and escape it, especially when they've been trained to tolerate it.
DivineDragonEyes 3 years ago
I disagree with the first sentence of this post. Riding is both an art and a science in and of itself, therefore, science is extremely relevant to the equestrian world, no matter what side of this debate you are on.
girlsontheinternets 3 years ago
I think you do raise some interesting points. I use long-and-low on every single horse I ride. Stretching a horse's back is important, always. However, I have also used rolkur in the past, on my Arab, and he actually lost muscle in his neck from it because we were "faking it" as our trainer said, meaning he had the headset, but wasn't using his muscles. I've found that a more classical style works better for my horses, but since I have a narcissistic Arabian, he makes his own flash :D
girlsontheinternets 3 years ago
I think this video proves some great points but i am still kinda on the fence with this topic. It might not hurt them but it just looks so unatural. I am more of a western rider though and i rather see a collected horse with absolutly no contact then a horse with its nose to its chest foaming at the mouth. But thats just me.
ohhsnappdawg 3 years ago
Actually, in western pleasure, horses have no collection. Collection is misinterpreted in America. The German word for it, Schwung, means engagement of the hindquarters, which horses on the American breed circuits lack almost completely. American paints and quarter horses with their staggered gaits and nose-to-the-ground headset are perhaps the least natural movers ever.
Also, foam on the horse's lower lip indicated relaxation and acceptance of the bit. Do your homework.
girlsontheinternets 3 years ago
Sometimes that true in western pleasure, but if done corectly then that shouldent happen. There are people who dont know how to ride there horses in all disiplines. The whole WP world shouldent be judged off of some of there incapable riders.
I wasnt really talking about western pleasure anyway. I was more refering to reining, kinda of the western version of dressage. I would say that is definatly more natural then dressage, the horses ARE collected.
ohhsnappdawg 3 years ago 3
So you would rather see falshy than correct??
Karyn64 3 years ago
Salinero never sits, and neither do the others. Learn what a sit is, how a true piaffe is to be performed, and you will notice there is no moment of suspension in his piaffe, that he is leaning on the forehand, that he is tense.
Science is important. Just because it proves your theory wrong, does not mean it can just be 'discarded'.
EquineGal990 3 years ago
EquineGal,
Give up. If Anky is doing it it's perfect. Jaccko will never see the faults in her training or the lack of *sit* in a piaffe.
When I watch her I see all the faults hyperflexion has created but he never will. It's not classical and IMO it's abuse.
Karyn64 3 years ago
No Krya isn't 'classically trained'. Anyone can say they are, doesn't mean that they practice it. Sjef could go around saying he's classically trained--does that mean he is?
I do agree though, Krya's piaffes are crap.
And, a horse doesn't 'sit in the ring' but not on a pressure board. When the scientists told the riders what they'd found, the riders were floored, because they thought their horses were fine!
EquineGal990 3 years ago
Just because the head is low, does not mean the horses is on the forehand. It's called 'long and low'--its in dressage, I don't know if you've heard of it?
No, there isn't anything wrong with a horse being on the forehand, it IS natural. But in the piaffe, it is a highly collected trot--or at least it is supposed to be. The horse should 'sit back' and carry it's weight on the hind end, so its front is light and free. Clearly, that was not happening.
EquineGal990 3 years ago
Wow, you really haven't looked at the studies.
They did this with a NUMBER of grand prix horses, not just one (that's how science works. You have to have a large sample, or your result is flawed). They put them on a pressure board, and whilst BEING RIDDEN, performed a piaffe and such. The board registers where the horse is pressing the hardest--and low and behold, it was the forehand!
So much for a 'sit'.
EquineGal990 3 years ago
1.) Pictures can prove a lot, you retard. If a horse looks pissed off in a picture, guess what? HE WAS PISSED OFF. That's why he looked that way.
2.) There's videos if you don't like pictures, m'dear.
3.) And WP horses who pull themselves around on the forehand for 10 years are still competing too! Where's your logic, honey?
EquineGal990 3 years ago
Wow. Scientists don't know?
Yes, some of them ARE trainers, and most, if not all, work with horses EVERY DAY. When they put a Grand Prix horse on a board that records pounds of pressure, and ask it to perform a piaffe with it's head hyper flexed and most of it's weight is on the forehand, you're just going to ignore that?
The world is flat too, right?
EquineGal990 3 years ago
What of the HOARDES of pictures that show top level horses in discomfort due to rollkur? Going to ignore those for the sake of your argument, right?
Or, what about the vets? The studies? Going to ignore those too, right?
How old are you really, to go through my videos and comment 'haha' on them? 12? I never said I was a top dressage rider, nor do I claim to be. I'm trying to get you to actually look at what your doing instead of blindly following 'top riders because they win and bring in money'.
EquineGal990 3 years ago
Also, do your own research on the own people you quote. Sjef and other riders use Rollkur to get a horse to form abdominal muscles. Which would be good, BUT, the abdominal muscles are forced to COUNTERACT the over-tight lumbar region--aka, the lower back.
I am not 'close minded', I've gone through pages and pages of what people have to say about the positive aspects of rollkur. And I find their logic flawed, because although they are trainers, they are not vets, scientists, etc..
EquineGal990 3 years ago
Really? Where's your proof?
There are HUNDREDS of pictures to support me. And it's not my 'theory', dear, it's anatomical FACT.
Way to attack the person and not the argument on hand--bravo.
Also, GOOD way to prove that rollkur is awesome! TN won't get rid of the 'big lick' walking horses for the SAME reason--those horses may be in pain, but the state gets a ton of money from selling tickets! Rollkur is good--it makes MONEY!
EquineGal990 3 years ago
His lower back is locked in place, and remains hollow and is forced to stay that way.
Look at the 'top' dressage riders. Look how hollow most of the horses' backs are.
Do the horse a favor, and /listen/ rather then stick your fingers in your ears when they are showing obvious signs of discomfort. That's not harmony at all, is it?
EquineGal990 3 years ago
Also, FEI? Doesn't support Rollkur, and have made statements saying such. Wonder WHY.
For the horses' sake before this gets stupid, look at those being worked 'deep and round'. They are not in severe pain with their eyes rolling back--they are just uncomfortable, unhappy, and being held in a position that forces them to submit.
Using rollkur rides a horse from front to back--he DOES lift his back when worked deep, BUT it is only the front portion of his back.
EquineGal990 3 years ago
What a dumbass. Look at the classical writings and actually do some research. NO WHERE does it say, 'the horse should be above/on the vertical... UNLESS he's a skinny TB! Our horses are clearly just thick.'
No shit hyperflexion isn't like those things. It is to state that just because it is used to train (so is putting horses in draw reins, or long shanked bits and yanking them until they move on the forehand in WP) and it 'works', doesn't mean it's right, dear.
EquineGal990 3 years ago
Also, someone made the comment that anky and other top riders are winning, so they clearly must be right.
Really?
AQHA quarter horses used to have their blood drained to make them slower, and they won. Must mean that they're right, because other people started doing it too. They used to be drugged constantly, and they won.
TN walking horses are soared and put through constant pain every day, but they win--so clearly, it must be worth it.
Just because it works never means it is right.
EquineGal990 3 years ago
Your assumptions are wrong, and quite illogical. Gymnasts (NOT contortionists) can flex their bodies in crazy ways. They are flexible. My horse can touch his chin with his chest too, so Rollkur has nothing to do with flexibility, because ALL horses can do it without training. And two? Gymnasts don't hold these positions for HOURS, NOR ARE THEY MOVING AND LIFTING WEIGHT.
You can't honestly think that classically trained Lipizzaners have their heads on/above the vertical because of body type.
EquineGal990 3 years ago
So many assumptions!
Still waiting patiently for the sustained RK at liberty.
Unlikely to appear, except as a video loop, no doubt.
;D
And, no, I am not 'confused' by the definition of contorted, though it is highly apparent that you are highly confused.
Sure this is a great short cut, but FEI will awaken to their complicity in this form of nastiness.
Defend it all you like, it is still UNnatural and no horse will trot around for 20 or 30 minutes with his nose to his chest.
Benatus 3 years ago
Unfortunately, until the judges in the sport of dressage stop bowing down to the big names and big money sponsors this barbaric practise will not stop. All of these horses are behind the bit 90% of the time and lacking true impulsion and freedom behind. As a trainer and dressage rider myself I would much rather take the extra time to teach my horses 'self carriage' and allow them freedom of movement than be driven by financial gain.
slugsbunny 3 years ago
Btw, VERY many gymnasts have major healthproblems when they get older...
Golvklut 3 years ago
Do a closer study in the horses' anatomy, and you'll find out why hyperflexion is not good for the horse. XD
This way of "streching" does not strengthen nor give any more flexibility to the muscles, anyone would understand that if they bothered to study how the horse work under its surface...
But ofc, why bother when you can take a shortcut like this and live in ignorance? Ignorance IS bliss!
Golvklut 3 years ago
Thank you so much for making this.
I was about to become majorly nauseated with all the anti-hyperflexion videos.
anky, isabel, nicole, they are all champions, and you guys are just sitting on your computer chairs. i don't think you have room to judge.
varemaerke 3 years ago
First, I'm still researching hyperflexion and as of yet haven't formed an opinion so I find this informative. As someone who has been around dance for a while I would like to point out two mistakes. #1: Dancers, cheerleaders, and gymnasts who do those extreme moves do not come away unscathed as was insinuated. They suffer everything from stress fractures of the spine to chronic muscle cramps. While some can continue, most dancers literally begin to break down in their 30s.
cont. below...
CafeAmerican1945 3 years ago
#2: You stated that "bigger built person" will not be as flexible as a "slender built person." I've actually never seen that to be true. Personally, I fall into the "large frame" category and I out stretch my "slight built" 94 lb friend. It goes back more to good conformation, genetics, and (I think) nutrition that body type or breed (in a horses case.)
CafeAmerican1945 3 years ago
You're kidding, right?
KajaraVictoria 3 years ago
so if rollkur isnt bad why is thee horses mouth wrenched open and foam or even blood is coming out of it ?!
CowGirl259 3 years ago 2
"they would not allow themselves to be put in any position that causes strain or distress." Rediculous. Sadly there are some 'trainers' who have forceful, exhausting techniques that wear the horse into submission. Any thinking, equestrian should know that. You need serious help.
nicholina1990 3 years ago 2