Walvoord and Zuck says: "Thed message of Ps 51 is that the vilest offender among GOD'S PEOPLE can appeal to God for forgiveness, for moral restoration, and for the resumption of a joyful life of fellowship and service, if he comes with a broken spirit and bases his appeal on God's compassion and grace.
Sproul's reference to Psalm 51 as an example of true repentance does not apply to a repentance unto salvation. The reason? - David was already a saved man when he had Bathsheba's husband murdered and committed adultery. Furthermore, Sproul's view of a false repentance as a means to escape hell is also unbiblical. Wasn't that the reason why Christ was crucified - to save us from God's righteous punishment in hell? "How shall we ESCAPE, if we neglect so great salvation; [Heb 2:3]
Sproul's distinction of true and false repentance is sound. May I add that repentance and faith constitute what is theologically known as conversion. Conversion is a turning from sin (repentance) to Christ (faith). Repentance flows from faith, and so they are inseparately tied to each other. Where there is faith, there is repentance also, and where there is repentance, there is faith also.
Sproul's distinction between true and false repentance is not sound. He fallaciously uses Ps 51 to describe true repentance unto salvation. Ps 51 does not describe repentance unto salvation since David was already saved when he sinned. When Christ, John the Baptist and the apostles used the word "repent" (metanoia) it was always in regard to salvation. When a child of God sins he needs to confess and leave his sins and not repent all over again unto salvation (1 John 2:1, 2).
@lessingtom Sproul said nothing about David repenting unto salvation. He spoke of David's contrition, of his heart truly being broken because his sins against God. I don't recall hearing him mention repentance unto salvation. Redeemed people have to confess their sins and repent of the ones they have committed after they are saved.
If Spoul wasn't referring to a repentance unto salvation, why didn't he say so? Don't you understand that repentance in the New Testament always pertains to salvation? When Jesus said "Repent ye, for the Kingdom of God is at hand" was He speaking to saints who needed to repent of their evil ways? As I've already said, when a saint sins he/she needs to confess their sins and not repent all over again.
"Repentance" for the Calvinist is something that can ONLY occur AFTER the monergistic regeneration of an elect person, simply because sinners who are dead in sins and trespasses are absolutely unable to repent unto salvation. So you're right in saying that Sproul said nothing about repentance unto salvation. If he had, he would have compromised the Calvinist doctrines of Total Depravity, Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.
If Sproul wasn't referring to a repentance unto salvation why didn't he say so? Repentance in the New Testament always pertains to salvation. When Jesus said, "Repent ye for the Kingdom of God is at hand" was He speaking to saints who only needed to repent of their evil ways? When a saint sins he needs to confess his sins (1 John 1: 8 , 9) and NOT repent all over again.
The question is: Does repentance (a contrite heart) come after regeneration or before? Calvinists do not believe that faith is a precondition for salvation, simply because man is totally depraved and unable to believe unto salvation. For them a contrite heart prior to regeneration is therefore also taboo. Repentance in order to be saved is for them a no-go.
@lessingtom Did you watch the video or are you just here to try and cause debate? RC Sproul just discussed repentance as an absolute necessity and he is one of the most well known reformed, bible believing, gospel preachers there are. Nowhere has he or any other well known reformed theologian such as John Piper, JI Packer, Tim Keller or John MacArthur ever preached that faith is not a precondition for salvation. Friend, please do your research before attempting to cause conflict.
Maybe you should do your homework. John MacArthur believes that man is absolutely unable to respond in faith to the Gospel and therefore unable to repent IN ORDER to be saved. In fact, like Paul Washer he believes that man is as dead as a corpse or cadaver (both use Lazarus' resurrection as an example of God's sovereign regeneration of the elect only) and must first be regenerated before the gift of faith can be given to the saved elect.
@lessingtom Man, on his own, is unable to respond to the Gospel. Only by the spirit of God is this possible, I think that it unmistakably clear when looking at the scriptures. Biblically, every single person was in a spiritually dead state before they placed their faith in Christ. This is not an argument of what a few preachers or even what John Calvin himself believed. It's an argument of what is biblically described. God seeks after us before we even think about seeking after Him.
Of course the HG was sent to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment but most people refuse to believe they are lost sinners because, as the Calvinists believe, they are incapable of responding in faith to the Gospel. They say faith is a work and as such unacceptable to God. Therefore, as Calvinists believe, only the elect are first regenerated (monergistically) and then, AFTER regeneration, faith is given to them as a gift. Sproul is a staunch Calvinist.
@lessingtom No one naturally submits to the terms of the gospel. Jesus himself said that "no one can come to me unless God grants it." (John 6:65). So apart from the grace of the Holy Spirit no one comes to Christ in his own native resources. This is clear throughout scripture. We were once "dead in our sin" and "by nature children of wrath" (Eph 2). "All have turned aside and together become worthless" (Romans 3). Faith is the God-given response to His grace.
All that you have said, is true but does that mean that God only draws some and not others? Those who come to Jesus for salvation do so not because they have been drawn to Him irresistibly but because they are weary of their heavy-laden sinfulness and realize that they need Him to save them. (Mat 11:28). That's why Jesus also said: "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance (Mar 2:17).
@lessingtom It's a tough subject. The point Christ was making is that no one is truly righteous. Has anyone ever been saved without God's intervention? No. Realizing one's sinfulness, repenting and having faith are all demonstrations of the Holy Spirit at work. He seeks us out and causes us to realize how much we need Him. "He who began a great work in you will complete it." (Phil 1:6) That's the beauty of the Gospel, that God uses us to play a part in others' salvation as well (2 Cor 5:20).
What you have said is 100% biblical. The fact is that the Calvinists do not believe it. They reject things like "Realizing one's sinfulness, repenting and having faith," because they believe man is absolutely unable to do these things, especially "having faith" IN ORDER to be saved. Hence the HG must regenerate ONLY the elect monergistically. According to them faith comes AFTER regeneration when it is given to the elect as a gift.
@lessingtom The point of what I'm saying is that man IS unable to "repent and have faith" on their own, without any intervention. Faith by itself is a gift from God and saving faith comes only after one is born again (John 3). How are we born again? By water and the spirit, that is from God. Calvinists absolutely teach that faith is necessary in order to be saved but what you need to realize is that saving faith comes only after the regeneration of one's heart, given by God's irresistible grace.
Saving faith comes after regeneration? So I must first be saved before I can believe in order to be saved? When does the HG convict the elect of judgment - before or after regeneration?
@lessingtom What you need to understand is that God is at work in a Christian's heart before, during and all the while after he/she hears and believes the Gospel. God uses men to preach the Gospel to other men. It's all God, but He uses us, as humans to spread his Gospel.
"If we have any humanity in us, seeing men going to perdition, …ought we not be moved by pity, to rescue the poor souls from hell, and teach them the way of salvation?(from sermon 196 on Deut. 33:18-19)" - John Calvin
I agree with you wholeheartedly. But we are not discussing the Gospel; we are discussing Calvinism of which Sproul is a stanch supporter. Calvinism is not the Gospel. Once again, they believe that man is as dead as a cadaver and therefore completely incapable to hear and understand the Gospel. So what's the point in preaching the Gospel? Ah! they are first saved (regenerated and given faith as a gift) before they can believe and understand the Gospel.
@lessingtom You say dead as a cadaver as if it has no theological backing..."you were dead in your sins" - Eph. 2:1, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God...and he is not able to understand them."- 1 Cor 2:14 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" - Jeremiah 17:9...So tell me, can someone bring themselves from death to life? The Gospel cannot be received unless God gives one the heart to understand it, through faith!
No! No one can bring himself from death to life but he MUST BELIEVE that Jesus can do it for him IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. Once again, it is preposterous to believe that you first need to receive a new heart before you can believe. Faith is the precondition for salvation, not the aftermath to a sovereign regeneration. Jesus sent the HG to convict the world of sin, righteousness AND JUDGMENT. Does He convict the sinner of judgment berfore or after regeneration?
No, the expression "as dead as a cadaver" is not my invention. Washer, MacArthur, Driscoll, Piper el al constantly use Lazarus as a metaphor for sovereign regeneration. What was Lazarus - a living corpse?
@lessingtom Again, you're missing the point of the metaphor. Would it have been possible for Lazarus to raise himself from the dead? No. In the same way, it's not possible for man to raise himself from the spiritually dead state he is in before he is made alive in Christ. One cannot raise himself from the dead, this is the crucial to the Gospel. Thinking that we can somehow raise ourselves from the dead is the basis for the largest threat to Christianity, works based salvation (legalism).
Dead in sin and trespasses simply means that the lost sinner is alienated (separated) from God and needs to be reconciled to HIm through faith in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross IN ORDER to be saved.
NO, my friend, your'e missing the point. You cannot use Lazarus as a metaphor for regeneration because in the real sense of the word he was never dead, As a saved man when he "died" he went to the bosom of Abraham and was more alive in Paradise than what he was on earth. As Jesus would say, he was but asleep. OK, so there are dead men. Dead men cannot raise themselves but neither can they sin or hate God. How can God hold them accountable if they can't sin or hate Him?
Paul Washer and his assistant pastors believe that the lost sinner himself must repent. How can a dead man (as dead as a corpse) repent and be saved? Would you say it's possible?
God's intervention is through his Word and the conviction of the HG. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [Rom 10:17]. Paul Washer believes that man cannot hear the Gospel and must first be regenerated before he can hear and understand the Gospel. That's ridiculous. It's putting the cart before the horse. How, when and where was Saul of Tarsus saved?
@lessingtom Friend, you need to do more research of what reformed theologians such as Sproul, Piper and Washer believe about faith and salvation. God must do work in a person's heart before they can receive the Gospel. That's not debatable. This is the reason why the Gospel can be preached to a group of Indians who've never heard it and some of them respond in faith, because God is at work in their heart before and while they're hearing the Gospel. Simply hearing the Gospel is a God ordained act
Listen, God works in all men's hearts and of course there are only some who respond in faith to his calling. NO, saith the Calvinist, they can't respond because they are as dead as a cadaver in sins and trespasses. So the elect only must first be regenerated monergistically before they can believe. What utter nonsense!
@lessingtom Referring to St. Paul - "God will have His grace made known to all the world, and His gospel preached to all creatures. Therefore, we must endeavour, as much as possible, to persuade those who are strangers to the faith, and seem to be utterly deprived of the goodness of God, to accept of salvation...we must labour as much as possible to draw those to salvation who seem to be afar off. And above all things, let us pray to God for them." (from sermon on 1 Timothy 2:3-5) - John Calvin
How can you endeavour to persuade those who are strangers to the faith when most of them are not the elect and Jesus did not die for them on the cross? Are you going to tell them that, as our very esteemed and respectful false teachers, John MacArthur and RC Sproul have said in the past? How do YOU draw those to salvation when God only draws the elect and not the non-elect. Have you read Calvin's Institutes? You obviously don't have a clue what Calvinism really is.
@lessingtom Once again, you have completely misunderstood and simplified the entire doctrine of reformed theology to one specific point of "monergistic regeneration" to which you have also misinterpreted. In saying what you have, you have completely demeaned God's glory and sovereignty. I urge you to study accurately what theologians like Martin Luther (where Calvinistic ideas truly started), John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, JI Packer and others rather than starting rash arguments on Youtube.
You have a very strange idea about God's sovereignty. The fact that man has a free-will does not demean God's sovereignty. In fact, it enhances it. It proves that man was made in the image of God.
@lessingtom There is no doubt in my mind that man has been given free will and that is from God. Adam chose to sin against God due to his free will. But the pressing question of this topic is, how much do we do in salvation and how much does God do? If we answer anything short of God doing everything, then we undermine the Gospel as a whole. At the heart of the Gospel is God being the supreme actor in salvation, he is the giver and the gift of the Gospel. He changes our heart, he gives us life.
You do absolutely nothing. The only thing you do is to do the work God requires of you and that is to believe on HIm and his finished work on the cross. (John 6:29). Man has a free-will but God forbids him to use it for the most important thing in the world, salvation?
@lessingtom I'm going to end this conversation because I realize that it's not going anywhere, it's not edifying or ultimately bringing glory to the Father. If you want to learn more just study the debates between Augustine and Palagius, Luther and Erasmus, and so on. You are entitled to your opinion and to come to your own conclusion. But what has been found by men like Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, Edwards and so on is most consistent with Biblical teaching and doctrine.
Most Calvinists I've debated on the internet usually end off by saying " I'm going to end this conversation because I realize that it's not going anywhere, it's not edifying or ultimately bringing glory to the Father." The real reason is that they do not know how to answer my questions. Anyway, Calvinism dishonours God and his Gospel continually. I'm not interested in what Augustine (the systematizer of RCC's doctrines), Luther, Calvin or Spurgeon says. God's Word is my yardstick.
@lessingtom Perhaps most Calvinists are able to put their pride aside, unlike you, and humbly end the conversation because they know no fruit can come of it nor is the name of Christ being exalted in this dialogue. Think what you will, but I pray that you do not spend your entire life debating and attempting to win arguments. 2 Cor 5:17-21 is my aim as a Christian, and I hope it is yours as well.
This is not about winning arguments. This is about where you are going to spend eternity because of your belief system. Jesus said: "If you believe as the Scriptures have said . . ." and not as anyone else has said. If 2 Cor 5:17-21 is your aim then you must start believing that "world" in verse 19 refers to the entire world and not "all kinds of people" or "some people." Christ's death on the cross makes it possible for all men to be reconciled to God (1 Tim 4:10).
Some fruit can indeed come from this discussion: "(Jas 5:20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." What greater exaltation of Christ is there when a sinner in error is brought to the truth? Even the angels in heaven rejoice when one lost soul is saved. Then again, the Calvinist being an elect, knows nothing of true salvation.
@lessingtom You're right, every person who has ever adhered to any sort of reformed theology is lost. That's definitely your call to make.
Any reputable remarks you had were just lost by making judgement on the souls of people of whose hearts you know nothing about. At no point did I ever say that I felt Christian Armenians were 'lost' because they believed a little different from me.
Only Christ knows the heart.
I'll stick to Phil 3:8. You can have your judgements
"You're right, every person who has ever adhered to any sort of reformed theology is lost. That's definitely your call to make." You're putting words in my mouth. I never said that the adherents to reformed theology are lost. Many adherents were saved before they decided to follow reformed theology. They were saved despite the damnable beliefs of a murderer, John Calvin and his TULIP.
"At no point did I ever say that I felt Christian Armenians were 'lost' because they believed a little different from me." No, you've never said it in so many words but you do believe that they are not the elect. What's the difference?
Post #1 The great preacher, Charles Spurgeon whom the Calvinists love to use as an example of puritan reformed theology, wrote:
What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not . . .. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with the text. "All men" say they "that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if He meant some men. Cont. post #2
Post # 2 "All men," say they: "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said, "All sorts of men" if He had meant that. The Holy Ghost, by the apostle has written, "All men," and unquestionably He means all men . . .. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, volume 26, pages 49-52).
I can see that you're not a Calvinist. Had you been one you could never have said something like "That's the beauty of the Gospel, that God uses us to play a part in others' salvation as well (2 Cor 5:20)." They believe that man has NO part in the salvation of sinners. Yes, of course, God alone can save, but His prerequisite for salvation is that the lost sinner puts his FAITH in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
@lessingtom You are misinterpreting the entire doctrine of Calvinism. If Calvinists like RC Sproul really believed what you're saying then why would they even feel the need to be ministers at all if they had no part in others salvation? God uses men to spread His Gospel throughout His plan for salvation. No where in the Calvinistic doctrine does it state that God does not use people in order to save others. That is unequivocally clear throughout scripture and any reformed theologian would agree.
How on earth can Sproul and any other Calvinist have any part in man's salvation when God has ordained everything that comes to pass? If God ordained the salvation of the elect only even before the foundation of the earth, what part has man in the elects' salvation? Sproul believes that man is totally unable to understand or to respond in faith to the Gospel and must be regenerated sovereignly and monergistically. Salvation is all of God. So what part does man play?
I disagree. Calvinists believe that man is unable toe respond in faith to God's grace as a precondition for his salvation. Faith prior to redemption, they say, is a work and therefore unacceptable to God. Hence faith is a gift that is given to the elect ONLY AFTER their monergistic regeneration. To substantiate this, they often use Paul's Damascus experience as an example. How, when and where would you say was Paul saved?
I thought this was an excellent description of true repentance. I've also heard it stated a little differently: "I wish I'd never done it", but that explanation isn't as comprehensive as RC's.
@TheCrystalRiver I know what u r talking about. U may b putting urself into a place that is tempting u & enticing u back into the sin u r trying to walk away from. U may need to do things differently if this is what u r doing. Cry out to God & ask for Him to bring u repentence, to grant it and to keep u out of harm's way.
@TheCrystalRiver Christ has taken away all sin past, present, future, for all believers. Therefore do not focus on sin or repentance after you have done your confession. He who puts focus on sin will sin. But if you now put your affection on Christ in devotion with constant discipline you will find sin's pull has left you and you are consumed with Christ.Do not fight with sin Christ has destroyed you cannot win. Fight to enjoy Christ He will prove Himself a victory
@TheCrystalRiver Pray for God to remove the temptation. In addition if it is the environment you are in that causes you to sin, change your environment (bars, internet, peers etc). Find a friend who you can confide in, and meet with regularly, who will not be judgmental, one who will pray for you but also keep you accountable. You will be able to do the same for that friend. We all continue to sin. The question is do you do it willingly?
If you've truly put your faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved and not rely on Calvin's lie that you're one of the elect who has been given the gift of faith AFTER God's sovereign act of regeneration, then you've been baptized into the death of Christ. As such you've died to sin (your own sinful nature) and have been made alive to God. (Rom 6:11-14). Live in this reality by faith. God is not going to remove the temptations. You must be an over-comer in those temptations.
@TheCrystalRiver sometimes you actually have to wrestle until God delivers you. No one who waits on the Lord will be put to shame. dont get into condemnation or try vainly in your flesh to fix something only the Spirit can set you free from. God bless
@TheCrystalRiver you're in the same boat as every Christian, sin is a fact of every day life. Spend time in God's word and seek refuge there. That's what I do and I can tell you, it's an on-going battle but as John Piper says "Make war on your sin!" Romans is a great book to start with...
Post #2
Walvoord and Zuck says: "Thed message of Ps 51 is that the vilest offender among GOD'S PEOPLE can appeal to God for forgiveness, for moral restoration, and for the resumption of a joyful life of fellowship and service, if he comes with a broken spirit and bases his appeal on God's compassion and grace.
lessingtom 1 month ago
Post # 1
Sproul's reference to Psalm 51 as an example of true repentance does not apply to a repentance unto salvation. The reason? - David was already a saved man when he had Bathsheba's husband murdered and committed adultery. Furthermore, Sproul's view of a false repentance as a means to escape hell is also unbiblical. Wasn't that the reason why Christ was crucified - to save us from God's righteous punishment in hell? "How shall we ESCAPE, if we neglect so great salvation; [Heb 2:3]
lessingtom 1 month ago
Sproul's distinction of true and false repentance is sound. May I add that repentance and faith constitute what is theologically known as conversion. Conversion is a turning from sin (repentance) to Christ (faith). Repentance flows from faith, and so they are inseparately tied to each other. Where there is faith, there is repentance also, and where there is repentance, there is faith also.
I hope you found this information helpful.
InSlaveryToChrist 2 months ago
@InSlaveryToChrist
Sproul's distinction between true and false repentance is not sound. He fallaciously uses Ps 51 to describe true repentance unto salvation. Ps 51 does not describe repentance unto salvation since David was already saved when he sinned. When Christ, John the Baptist and the apostles used the word "repent" (metanoia) it was always in regard to salvation. When a child of God sins he needs to confess and leave his sins and not repent all over again unto salvation (1 John 2:1, 2).
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom Sproul said nothing about David repenting unto salvation. He spoke of David's contrition, of his heart truly being broken because his sins against God. I don't recall hearing him mention repentance unto salvation. Redeemed people have to confess their sins and repent of the ones they have committed after they are saved.
luvmusic09 1 month ago
@luvmusic09
Post 1
If Spoul wasn't referring to a repentance unto salvation, why didn't he say so? Don't you understand that repentance in the New Testament always pertains to salvation? When Jesus said "Repent ye, for the Kingdom of God is at hand" was He speaking to saints who needed to repent of their evil ways? As I've already said, when a saint sins he/she needs to confess their sins and not repent all over again.
lessingtom 1 month ago
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lessingtom 1 month ago
@luvmusic09
"Repentance" for the Calvinist is something that can ONLY occur AFTER the monergistic regeneration of an elect person, simply because sinners who are dead in sins and trespasses are absolutely unable to repent unto salvation. So you're right in saying that Sproul said nothing about repentance unto salvation. If he had, he would have compromised the Calvinist doctrines of Total Depravity, Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.
lessingtom 1 month ago
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@luvmusic09
If Sproul wasn't referring to a repentance unto salvation why didn't he say so? Repentance in the New Testament always pertains to salvation. When Jesus said, "Repent ye for the Kingdom of God is at hand" was He speaking to saints who only needed to repent of their evil ways? When a saint sins he needs to confess his sins (1 John 1: 8 , 9) and NOT repent all over again.
lessingtom 1 month ago
The question is: Does repentance (a contrite heart) come after regeneration or before? Calvinists do not believe that faith is a precondition for salvation, simply because man is totally depraved and unable to believe unto salvation. For them a contrite heart prior to regeneration is therefore also taboo. Repentance in order to be saved is for them a no-go.
lessingtom 3 months ago
@lessingtom Did you watch the video or are you just here to try and cause debate? RC Sproul just discussed repentance as an absolute necessity and he is one of the most well known reformed, bible believing, gospel preachers there are. Nowhere has he or any other well known reformed theologian such as John Piper, JI Packer, Tim Keller or John MacArthur ever preached that faith is not a precondition for salvation. Friend, please do your research before attempting to cause conflict.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Maybe you should do your homework. John MacArthur believes that man is absolutely unable to respond in faith to the Gospel and therefore unable to repent IN ORDER to be saved. In fact, like Paul Washer he believes that man is as dead as a corpse or cadaver (both use Lazarus' resurrection as an example of God's sovereign regeneration of the elect only) and must first be regenerated before the gift of faith can be given to the saved elect.
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom Man, on his own, is unable to respond to the Gospel. Only by the spirit of God is this possible, I think that it unmistakably clear when looking at the scriptures. Biblically, every single person was in a spiritually dead state before they placed their faith in Christ. This is not an argument of what a few preachers or even what John Calvin himself believed. It's an argument of what is biblically described. God seeks after us before we even think about seeking after Him.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Of course the HG was sent to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment but most people refuse to believe they are lost sinners because, as the Calvinists believe, they are incapable of responding in faith to the Gospel. They say faith is a work and as such unacceptable to God. Therefore, as Calvinists believe, only the elect are first regenerated (monergistically) and then, AFTER regeneration, faith is given to them as a gift. Sproul is a staunch Calvinist.
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom No one naturally submits to the terms of the gospel. Jesus himself said that "no one can come to me unless God grants it." (John 6:65). So apart from the grace of the Holy Spirit no one comes to Christ in his own native resources. This is clear throughout scripture. We were once "dead in our sin" and "by nature children of wrath" (Eph 2). "All have turned aside and together become worthless" (Romans 3). Faith is the God-given response to His grace.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
All that you have said, is true but does that mean that God only draws some and not others? Those who come to Jesus for salvation do so not because they have been drawn to Him irresistibly but because they are weary of their heavy-laden sinfulness and realize that they need Him to save them. (Mat 11:28). That's why Jesus also said: "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance (Mar 2:17).
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom It's a tough subject. The point Christ was making is that no one is truly righteous. Has anyone ever been saved without God's intervention? No. Realizing one's sinfulness, repenting and having faith are all demonstrations of the Holy Spirit at work. He seeks us out and causes us to realize how much we need Him. "He who began a great work in you will complete it." (Phil 1:6) That's the beauty of the Gospel, that God uses us to play a part in others' salvation as well (2 Cor 5:20).
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
What you have said is 100% biblical. The fact is that the Calvinists do not believe it. They reject things like "Realizing one's sinfulness, repenting and having faith," because they believe man is absolutely unable to do these things, especially "having faith" IN ORDER to be saved. Hence the HG must regenerate ONLY the elect monergistically. According to them faith comes AFTER regeneration when it is given to the elect as a gift.
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom The point of what I'm saying is that man IS unable to "repent and have faith" on their own, without any intervention. Faith by itself is a gift from God and saving faith comes only after one is born again (John 3). How are we born again? By water and the spirit, that is from God. Calvinists absolutely teach that faith is necessary in order to be saved but what you need to realize is that saving faith comes only after the regeneration of one's heart, given by God's irresistible grace.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
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lessingtom 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Saving faith comes after regeneration? So I must first be saved before I can believe in order to be saved? When does the HG convict the elect of judgment - before or after regeneration?
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom What you need to understand is that God is at work in a Christian's heart before, during and all the while after he/she hears and believes the Gospel. God uses men to preach the Gospel to other men. It's all God, but He uses us, as humans to spread his Gospel.
"If we have any humanity in us, seeing men going to perdition, …ought we not be moved by pity, to rescue the poor souls from hell, and teach them the way of salvation?(from sermon 196 on Deut. 33:18-19)" - John Calvin
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
I agree with you wholeheartedly. But we are not discussing the Gospel; we are discussing Calvinism of which Sproul is a stanch supporter. Calvinism is not the Gospel. Once again, they believe that man is as dead as a cadaver and therefore completely incapable to hear and understand the Gospel. So what's the point in preaching the Gospel? Ah! they are first saved (regenerated and given faith as a gift) before they can believe and understand the Gospel.
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom You say dead as a cadaver as if it has no theological backing..."you were dead in your sins" - Eph. 2:1, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God...and he is not able to understand them."- 1 Cor 2:14 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" - Jeremiah 17:9...So tell me, can someone bring themselves from death to life? The Gospel cannot be received unless God gives one the heart to understand it, through faith!
FCBarca720 1 month ago
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lessingtom 1 month ago
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@FCBarca720
No! No one can bring himself from death to life but he MUST BELIEVE that Jesus can do it for him IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. Once again, it is preposterous to believe that you first need to receive a new heart before you can believe. Faith is the precondition for salvation, not the aftermath to a sovereign regeneration. Jesus sent the HG to convict the world of sin, righteousness AND JUDGMENT. Does He convict the sinner of judgment berfore or after regeneration?
lessingtom 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
No, the expression "as dead as a cadaver" is not my invention. Washer, MacArthur, Driscoll, Piper el al constantly use Lazarus as a metaphor for sovereign regeneration. What was Lazarus - a living corpse?
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom Again, you're missing the point of the metaphor. Would it have been possible for Lazarus to raise himself from the dead? No. In the same way, it's not possible for man to raise himself from the spiritually dead state he is in before he is made alive in Christ. One cannot raise himself from the dead, this is the crucial to the Gospel. Thinking that we can somehow raise ourselves from the dead is the basis for the largest threat to Christianity, works based salvation (legalism).
FCBarca720 1 month ago
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lessingtom 1 month ago
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lessingtom 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Dead in sin and trespasses simply means that the lost sinner is alienated (separated) from God and needs to be reconciled to HIm through faith in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross IN ORDER to be saved.
lessingtom 1 month ago
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lessingtom 1 month ago
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@FCBarca720
NO, my friend, your'e missing the point. You cannot use Lazarus as a metaphor for regeneration because in the real sense of the word he was never dead, As a saved man when he "died" he went to the bosom of Abraham and was more alive in Paradise than what he was on earth. As Jesus would say, he was but asleep. OK, so there are dead men. Dead men cannot raise themselves but neither can they sin or hate God. How can God hold them accountable if they can't sin or hate Him?
lessingtom 1 month ago
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lessingtom 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
You haven't answered my quesiton. Does the HG convict a lost sinner of judgment before or after regeneration?
lessingtom 1 month ago
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@FCBarca720
Paul Washer and his assistant pastors believe that the lost sinner himself must repent. How can a dead man (as dead as a corpse) repent and be saved? Would you say it's possible?
lessingtom 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
God's intervention is through his Word and the conviction of the HG. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [Rom 10:17]. Paul Washer believes that man cannot hear the Gospel and must first be regenerated before he can hear and understand the Gospel. That's ridiculous. It's putting the cart before the horse. How, when and where was Saul of Tarsus saved?
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom Friend, you need to do more research of what reformed theologians such as Sproul, Piper and Washer believe about faith and salvation. God must do work in a person's heart before they can receive the Gospel. That's not debatable. This is the reason why the Gospel can be preached to a group of Indians who've never heard it and some of them respond in faith, because God is at work in their heart before and while they're hearing the Gospel. Simply hearing the Gospel is a God ordained act
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Listen, God works in all men's hearts and of course there are only some who respond in faith to his calling. NO, saith the Calvinist, they can't respond because they are as dead as a cadaver in sins and trespasses. So the elect only must first be regenerated monergistically before they can believe. What utter nonsense!
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom Referring to St. Paul - "God will have His grace made known to all the world, and His gospel preached to all creatures. Therefore, we must endeavour, as much as possible, to persuade those who are strangers to the faith, and seem to be utterly deprived of the goodness of God, to accept of salvation...we must labour as much as possible to draw those to salvation who seem to be afar off. And above all things, let us pray to God for them." (from sermon on 1 Timothy 2:3-5) - John Calvin
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
How can you endeavour to persuade those who are strangers to the faith when most of them are not the elect and Jesus did not die for them on the cross? Are you going to tell them that, as our very esteemed and respectful false teachers, John MacArthur and RC Sproul have said in the past? How do YOU draw those to salvation when God only draws the elect and not the non-elect. Have you read Calvin's Institutes? You obviously don't have a clue what Calvinism really is.
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom Once again, you have completely misunderstood and simplified the entire doctrine of reformed theology to one specific point of "monergistic regeneration" to which you have also misinterpreted. In saying what you have, you have completely demeaned God's glory and sovereignty. I urge you to study accurately what theologians like Martin Luther (where Calvinistic ideas truly started), John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, JI Packer and others rather than starting rash arguments on Youtube.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
You have a very strange idea about God's sovereignty. The fact that man has a free-will does not demean God's sovereignty. In fact, it enhances it. It proves that man was made in the image of God.
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom There is no doubt in my mind that man has been given free will and that is from God. Adam chose to sin against God due to his free will. But the pressing question of this topic is, how much do we do in salvation and how much does God do? If we answer anything short of God doing everything, then we undermine the Gospel as a whole. At the heart of the Gospel is God being the supreme actor in salvation, he is the giver and the gift of the Gospel. He changes our heart, he gives us life.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
You do absolutely nothing. The only thing you do is to do the work God requires of you and that is to believe on HIm and his finished work on the cross. (John 6:29). Man has a free-will but God forbids him to use it for the most important thing in the world, salvation?
lessingtom 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
So God does the repentance and believing bit for you?
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom I'm going to end this conversation because I realize that it's not going anywhere, it's not edifying or ultimately bringing glory to the Father. If you want to learn more just study the debates between Augustine and Palagius, Luther and Erasmus, and so on. You are entitled to your opinion and to come to your own conclusion. But what has been found by men like Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon, Edwards and so on is most consistent with Biblical teaching and doctrine.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Most Calvinists I've debated on the internet usually end off by saying " I'm going to end this conversation because I realize that it's not going anywhere, it's not edifying or ultimately bringing glory to the Father." The real reason is that they do not know how to answer my questions. Anyway, Calvinism dishonours God and his Gospel continually. I'm not interested in what Augustine (the systematizer of RCC's doctrines), Luther, Calvin or Spurgeon says. God's Word is my yardstick.
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom Perhaps most Calvinists are able to put their pride aside, unlike you, and humbly end the conversation because they know no fruit can come of it nor is the name of Christ being exalted in this dialogue. Think what you will, but I pray that you do not spend your entire life debating and attempting to win arguments. 2 Cor 5:17-21 is my aim as a Christian, and I hope it is yours as well.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
This is not about winning arguments. This is about where you are going to spend eternity because of your belief system. Jesus said: "If you believe as the Scriptures have said . . ." and not as anyone else has said. If 2 Cor 5:17-21 is your aim then you must start believing that "world" in verse 19 refers to the entire world and not "all kinds of people" or "some people." Christ's death on the cross makes it possible for all men to be reconciled to God (1 Tim 4:10).
lessingtom 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Some fruit can indeed come from this discussion: "(Jas 5:20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." What greater exaltation of Christ is there when a sinner in error is brought to the truth? Even the angels in heaven rejoice when one lost soul is saved. Then again, the Calvinist being an elect, knows nothing of true salvation.
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom You're right, every person who has ever adhered to any sort of reformed theology is lost. That's definitely your call to make.
Any reputable remarks you had were just lost by making judgement on the souls of people of whose hearts you know nothing about. At no point did I ever say that I felt Christian Armenians were 'lost' because they believed a little different from me.
Only Christ knows the heart.
I'll stick to Phil 3:8. You can have your judgements
This conversation is over
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
"You're right, every person who has ever adhered to any sort of reformed theology is lost. That's definitely your call to make." You're putting words in my mouth. I never said that the adherents to reformed theology are lost. Many adherents were saved before they decided to follow reformed theology. They were saved despite the damnable beliefs of a murderer, John Calvin and his TULIP.
lessingtom 1 month ago
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@FCBarca720
"At no point did I ever say that I felt Christian Armenians were 'lost' because they believed a little different from me." No, you've never said it in so many words but you do believe that they are not the elect. What's the difference?
lessingtom 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Post #1 The great preacher, Charles Spurgeon whom the Calvinists love to use as an example of puritan reformed theology, wrote:
What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not . . .. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with the text. "All men" say they "that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if He meant some men. Cont. post #2
lessingtom 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Post # 2 "All men," say they: "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said, "All sorts of men" if He had meant that. The Holy Ghost, by the apostle has written, "All men," and unquestionably He means all men . . .. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, volume 26, pages 49-52).
lessingtom 1 month ago
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@FCBarca720
I can see that you're not a Calvinist. Had you been one you could never have said something like "That's the beauty of the Gospel, that God uses us to play a part in others' salvation as well (2 Cor 5:20)." They believe that man has NO part in the salvation of sinners. Yes, of course, God alone can save, but His prerequisite for salvation is that the lost sinner puts his FAITH in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
lessingtom 1 month ago
@lessingtom You are misinterpreting the entire doctrine of Calvinism. If Calvinists like RC Sproul really believed what you're saying then why would they even feel the need to be ministers at all if they had no part in others salvation? God uses men to spread His Gospel throughout His plan for salvation. No where in the Calvinistic doctrine does it state that God does not use people in order to save others. That is unequivocally clear throughout scripture and any reformed theologian would agree.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
How on earth can Sproul and any other Calvinist have any part in man's salvation when God has ordained everything that comes to pass? If God ordained the salvation of the elect only even before the foundation of the earth, what part has man in the elects' salvation? Sproul believes that man is totally unable to understand or to respond in faith to the Gospel and must be regenerated sovereignly and monergistically. Salvation is all of God. So what part does man play?
lessingtom 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
I disagree. Calvinists believe that man is unable toe respond in faith to God's grace as a precondition for his salvation. Faith prior to redemption, they say, is a work and therefore unacceptable to God. Hence faith is a gift that is given to the elect ONLY AFTER their monergistic regeneration. To substantiate this, they often use Paul's Damascus experience as an example. How, when and where would you say was Paul saved?
lessingtom 1 month ago
I thought this was an excellent description of true repentance. I've also heard it stated a little differently: "I wish I'd never done it", but that explanation isn't as comprehensive as RC's.
edadan2009 7 months ago
Wonderfully put R.C.
OneFaithMinistries 1 year ago
I have truly repented, with a broken heart as Sproul puts it
But I've been drawn back to sin over and over again. What now?
TheCrystalRiver 1 year ago
@TheCrystalRiver I know what u r talking about. U may b putting urself into a place that is tempting u & enticing u back into the sin u r trying to walk away from. U may need to do things differently if this is what u r doing. Cry out to God & ask for Him to bring u repentence, to grant it and to keep u out of harm's way.
God bless,
WadeCDavis1 1 year ago 3
@WadeCDavis1
The whole world is full of repentence man
I mean I'm cryin out all the time and maybe that's the way it's supposed to be
I guess that's what I don't know. I feel like God would get tired of me crying out all the time cuz I do but idk man
Thank you for the encouraging words, tho
God be with you bro
TheCrystalRiver 1 year ago
@TheCrystalRiver Christ has taken away all sin past, present, future, for all believers. Therefore do not focus on sin or repentance after you have done your confession. He who puts focus on sin will sin. But if you now put your affection on Christ in devotion with constant discipline you will find sin's pull has left you and you are consumed with Christ.Do not fight with sin Christ has destroyed you cannot win. Fight to enjoy Christ He will prove Himself a victory
polopowers1 6 months ago
@TheCrystalRiver Pray for God to remove the temptation. In addition if it is the environment you are in that causes you to sin, change your environment (bars, internet, peers etc). Find a friend who you can confide in, and meet with regularly, who will not be judgmental, one who will pray for you but also keep you accountable. You will be able to do the same for that friend. We all continue to sin. The question is do you do it willingly?
warminster100 6 months ago
@TheCrystalRiver
If you've truly put your faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved and not rely on Calvin's lie that you're one of the elect who has been given the gift of faith AFTER God's sovereign act of regeneration, then you've been baptized into the death of Christ. As such you've died to sin (your own sinful nature) and have been made alive to God. (Rom 6:11-14). Live in this reality by faith. God is not going to remove the temptations. You must be an over-comer in those temptations.
lessingtom 3 months ago
@TheCrystalRiver sometimes you actually have to wrestle until God delivers you. No one who waits on the Lord will be put to shame. dont get into condemnation or try vainly in your flesh to fix something only the Spirit can set you free from. God bless
ProvidenceAvenue 1 month ago
@TheCrystalRiver you're in the same boat as every Christian, sin is a fact of every day life. Spend time in God's word and seek refuge there. That's what I do and I can tell you, it's an on-going battle but as John Piper says "Make war on your sin!" Romans is a great book to start with...
FCBarca720 1 month ago