Stan Lee on Jack Kirby

[jackdexx]

misleading title

[torchwoody58]

I've met Kirby on two occasions. He was all smiles until I brought up Marvel. Then he only spoke of it in generalities. He was the creator that the media gives Lee credit for being. What did Stan 'create' after Jack left Marvel? And what did Jack do BUT create after he left Marvel. The raw deal lives on. Stan Lee, oxygen thief!

[djcorbijn]

Both knew the business well. Kirby's main reason to leave Marvel probably had more to do with creative freedom than anything else. People make Lee out to be some kind of villain but Kirby signed contracts and was a freelance artist for a reason. People read too much into this and act like these two are characters out of the comics they wrote.

[anvilofcrom]

I can't stand this old crook, he should give half his fortune to the Kirby family since he wouldn't even be where he is with Jacks talent and imagination. Kirby got paid less for a years worth of work than some artist today make on an issue...total disgrace!

[Ztrigg]

Yeah Jack Kirby left to go to DC 'cause he wasn't getting paid enough or recognition. But he came back to Marvel after DC 'cause he got the same ol' "ballgame". I got that out of the Jack Kirby documentary. If only Stan took the time to watch it, or pay attention to Jack in the first place.

[blank557]

Jack never got royalties for all his creations. Stan Lee often took a shade too much credit for creating comic characters that wer at the very least 50% co-authored by the likes of Steve Diko, Jack Kirby, etc. More often than not, they were 100% created by the artists, but Stan tend to make them seem like he was the originator becasue he was Marvel's Mouthpiece.

[BlakeVII]

Stan the 'MAN' Lee can say whatever he likes. Jack Kirby is no longer around to defend himself but I hope Stan Lee never gets peace and feel the need to explain himself concerning Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and others for the rest of his days.

[puffedhell]

"Work for hire" is a bitch.

[fakestanlee]

Stan has always done two things very, very well: sign his name and take excellent care of Stan Lee.

[Drichansa]

@fakestanlee And co-create the modern era of comics, don't forget that.

[BlakeVII]

@fakestanlee I couldn't have said it better.

[IHS7]

Stan is lying. How could he say it was not in his control and then say he would tell the publisher to make Jack his partner? Truth is The new heads of Marvel did not want to give Jack the same respect as Stan (as in pay, health benefits. etc) because they thought anyone can draw like Jack but not anyone can write like Stan. Jack got tired of being in Stan's Shadow and Stan never vouched for Jack.

[thumbsaloft]

The work Kirby did at DC is my absolute favorite!

[teakey]

Stan Lee is another PEE-WEE

[PoofDuddy]

This twisted old fucking loser is an egomaniac and disrespects Jack Kirby to the nth degree. "Don't quit, I'll speak to the publisher (his inlaws) on your behalf to make you Art Director" what utter unbelievable horseshit. Jack worked alone, did all his panels overnite, then handed them in. Fuck you Stanley.

[TheFlyingFresh]

jack kirby is the king, steve ditko is the ruler, and stan lee is the father. These are the gods of comics! PRAISE THEM!!

[itzjoeymac]

It's too bad Jack didn't take that offer but let's be realistic. Kirby was never going to leave that old drawing board!

[BlakeVII]

Stans story does not ring true.

And I find it astonishing that Stan Lee, despite the decades of working with Kirby, up until the time Kirby left MARVEL for DC, why was he still treating Kirby as a 'checkbook' artist after all those years? Clearly he was much more than that. And, as a supposed 'friend', wouldn't Stan Lee have helped elevate Kirby long before his 'suggestion' that they should be partners?

I'm not satisfied with Stan's explanation or Stan/Marvel's treatment of Jack.

[PoofDuddy]

@BlakeVII Stan Lee is a thief, is what he is. He's screwed everybody.

[Cavebot]

Yes it does, Stan Lee is a shyster, liar, and everything he has done is a total rip off of Kirby, He has been a hapless figurehead at Marvel for years. This is always the case with weasels stealing all the credit and rewriting history, Just Imagine as world without ghost writers and artist willing to not eat shit, people like Stan Lee would be thankfully lost.

[4everfrankenstein]

Sometime in the 1980s, Kirby showed me a reprint check from MARVEL. The check was for $6.14. I never forgot that...

[brabon1]

@4everfrankenstein dude, did you go to his house? i will never forgive myself for living in los angeles and not having the guts to give him a call

met him at the con and at signings and even then didnt feel it was right to ask if i could come to visit....im a big dummy

[4everfrankenstein]

@brabon1 Yes, many times. Hanging out w/ the Kirbys was the highlight of the decade (80s) for me. I don't blame you for not imposing, tho. Mike Thibadaux, who was inking Jack's book CAPT.VICTORY brought me over, and soon after I went up there every time he did.This went on for 5 years, give or take. Roz ( his wife) was always sweet to me, and although Jack was warm and very down to Earth- I never lost the feeling that it was a rare privilege to be there. I can't say enough nice things about Jack

[brabon1]

@4everfrankenstein are you also close with evanier and is he using any of your anecdotes in his upcoming book about kirby?

[4everfrankenstein]

@brabon1 I know Mark, of course. But his book's already written- and besides...he knew Jack much longer than I did. In fact, Mark was president of MARVELMANIA INTERNATIONAL when I was just a punk kid, sending my hard earned allowance $ in for a membership. In fact, when Lisa Kirby asked me to be a presenter @ Comicon for the Kirby awards....as I presented an award to Evanier, i quipped that MI still owed me 12 bucks! That got BIG LAUGHS!

[brabon1]

@4everfrankenstein evanier said the first one was just a coffee table book, and that he is working on an opus...am i misinformed?

[4everfrankenstein]

@brabon1 The magazine JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR has published a few articles w/ me just reminiscing about visiting w/ the Kirbys. Mostly theses are anecdotes, and observations. I'm told they are running another one of mine in the upcoming issue.

[brabon1]

@4everfrankenstein well, all i can say is that i am very jealous of you

[4everfrankenstein]

@brabon1 LOL! Well, I can say Jack was very appreciative of your (and all of our) support for his work over the years. He never took fans for granted. I was shocked to find out that the Kirbys were listed in the phone book. Jack used to get calls from fans the world over. He told me that one of them was making unauthorized calls from a mental hospital.That guy thought (from Jack's books) that Kirby was privy to some kind of "UFO conspiracy". Still, the King listened patently, time and again! LOL

[brabon1]

@4everfrankenstein i know that he didnt take fans for granted...the times that i spoke to him at comic con, i noticed that he never sat

i found out from evanier's blog that the reason he did that was because he felt it would be disrespectful to his fans

and shoot...if i had known he accepted calls from guys in institutions, i wouldve called him up....when did he have the time to talk on the phone?

[4everfrankenstein]

@brabon1 Good question...I don't know how Jack had time to sit w/ us at the house or chat on the phone since he cranked out up to 8 pages a day, but he used to crack me up when he talked about that fan calling from a mental ward. Kirby said sometimes the guy would end the conversation abruptly w/ "Uh-oh- someone's coming!" then quickly hang up! Typically, if you called the house it was Roz who answered the phone, I was always surprised when Jack picked up-he was usually busily working away...

[brabon1]

@4everfrankenstein roz was an amazing woman...as for kirby's output and speed, i think one of the funniest things i have seen on youtube was lee talking about how he didnt really have time to write full scripts...what he didnt mention in that vid was that kirby was doing multiple books each month

i think the only artist that could match kiby's speed was jack davis

[4everfrankenstein]

Stan's a charming BS artist, isn't he? Jack wasn't only NOT getting paid enough, but was never given byline credit for characters he co- created and designed.as well as STORIES HE PLOTTED or co- plotted.. To this day the common misconception is that Stan was the sole creator of ALL the Silver age Marvel Heroes. If you like the way those Marvel characters look-(SPIDEY, THE THING, HULK, FF, THOR, etc.) you have Kirby to thank. Shame on MARVEL for never giving their most prolific creator his due.

[brabon1]

@4everfrankenstein depending on the crowd, stan changes his story constantly, regarding creating comics "the marvel way"...thing is, when i was a kid, i knew all about the marvel way...and we are talking the late 60s and early 70s

no internet, but tons of fanzines

much of it is fairly obvious, as if one were to remove the absurd script bubbles from a page, kirby and ditko's work is much better

[Elric33239]

@4everfrankenstein You obviously never read "Origins of Marvel Comics" and the volumes that followed! Stan CONTINUOUSLY gives Jack credit for the work he did on all of the books that they collaborated on! He also gave Ditko credit for co-creating the Spiderman and Dr. Strange books! One of history's ironic moments is that most people aren't aware that Jack first drew Spiderman on the cover of Amazing Fantasy #15! Even the "We Love Steve Ditko" crowd refuse to accept that fact!

[brabon1]

@Elric33239 jack inked spidey on the cover...shows how much you know

[4everfrankenstein]

@Elric33239 You are making one of my points for me: Yes, Stan acknowledges Jack's prowess as a storyteller, and yet only HE collects revenue from Marvel's licensing of the characters he CO-CREATED w/ Jack. Same w/ Ditko. And BTW, My HC copy of "Origins of Marvel Comics" is signed by Kirby. Look-I give Stan his due as a trendsetter in comics, and yes he is arguably the father of "modern" superhero comics. I just wish the $ was doled out more fairly. The characters go on making $,but only for Stan

[Elric33239]

@4everfrankenstein That's because Stan was an employee at Marvel as opposed to a freelancer who was paid a one-time fee for the work that he did on the books like Jack & Steve. I agree that it's completely unfair, but Stan didn't write the rules! The guys who signed the checks did!

[brabon1]

here is a man who says he can recall everything about creating a character but he doesnt know why jack left marvel?

hey stan...think it had anything to do with jack getting fucked in the ass over royalties?

you offered to make him the art director? this is such horseshite

[4everfrankenstein]

@brabon1 You said it, bro! Just read Eveneir's KIRBY book. Jack's long productive tenure at "The House of Ideas" was marked by disappointment and broken promises. I hope the Kirby family's ongoing lawsuit w/ Marvel (and now DISNEY) for getting their Dad proper long overdue credit and financial compensation pays off someday.

[brabon1]

@4everfrankenstein im shocked by people who have attacked jacks kids for filing the suit...jack was not only a great artist, he was a loving husband and father....nothing would please him more if his lifes work would make his children a little more comfortable...its why he always worked so hard

disney needs to do the right thing....settle....give a nice stipend to the kirby estate....and when i say nice...im talking in the millions with residuals

[Elric33239]

@brabon1 Were you there when they had that conversation? Stan has said that numerous times and unless you have proof otherwise, I'll believe Stan when he said that he offered him the Art Director job! The fact that DC treated Jack as badly as Marvel and Jack made no effort to start up a new company from scratch would indicate that he preferred freelancing to "sitting behind a desk!"

[brabon1]

@Elric33239 dc did not treat jack as poorly as marvel treated him...jack had a larger paycheck and till this day, his estate gets royalties from fourth world characters...he left dc because of editorial differences

the source i use is mark evanier...someone who knows the history of comics

[Elric33239]

@brabon1 Did it mention why Jack came back to Marvel after he left DC? Did it mention why none of the titles that he worked on as a writer/artist didn't sell as well as his collaborations with Stan? I'll look for this book to determine that if you're too busy!

[brabon1]

@Elric33239 not true...new gods sold very well....kirby left dc over editorial differences (including the fact that in jimmy olsen, he was not allowed to draw superman's face)

he revived the jimmy olsen comic

but you keep making stuff up

[Cavebot]

Everyones knows that Jack Kirby created everything and Stan Lee took as much of the credit that he could. I don't think Stan is evil, but all you have to do is look at what Jack made on his own, and what Stan did without him, that should tell you all you need to know for the TRUTH.

[Elric33239]

@Cavebot And the fact that Stan continued to work with other talented artists AFTER JACK LEFT AND RETURNED AND LEFT, DC Comics offered Stan a chance to develop new stories based on established characters and Stan now runs his own company obviously proves that he's nothing without Jack Kirby!

[brabon1]

@Elric33239 name one memorable character that lee created and developed without kirby and ditko in the bullpen

lee is a figurehead at his new company

the last company he "created" was an dotcom scam

[Elric33239]

@brabon1 To show you what an ignoramus that I am, I'll name two:

1. Iron Man - Plot by Stan Lee, Script by Larry Lieber(Stan's Brother), Art by Don Heck

2. Daredevil - Written by Stan Lee, Illustrated by Bill Everett(creator of The Submariner)

I can do some research and find more (like The (Cosmic) Captain Marvel #1that neither Jack nor Steve illustrated) but since I'm not getting paid to do your legwork, I'll leave it at these two.

[brabon1]

@Elric33239 you are an ignoramus...kirby had a big hand in creating iron man and daredevil

and i said "after kirby and ditko left marvel"

as both kirby and ditko created characters after they left...name one lasting character that lee created

[Elric33239]

@brabon1 Having Iron Man and Daredevil appear as guest stars in other books and illustrating Iron Man appearances in The Avengers has nothing to do with "creating characters!" And you didn't specifically say "when they left Marvel!" You said when they weren't part of The Bullpen which could also mean "that they weren't personally involved in creating the characters!"

[Elric33239]

@brabon1 While you and others would like to believe that Jack and Steve did everything for Marvel while Stan was sitting on his hands stealing the credit, you've conveniently forgotten that while Jack and Steve are legends in their own right, so was Stan because they didn't come up with all of the "Marvel ideas!" As for Jack, why isn't anyone defending Joe Simon, who co-created Captain America, like Stan did at Comic-Con recently? Do people think that Jack created HIM all by himself?

[brabon1]

@Elric33239 kirby never tried to steal credit from simon...ever

[Elric33239]

@brabon1 Where did I say that Kirby stole credit from him? I said that nobody gave Joe Simon as much credit for the titles that he co-created with people like Jack like "Captain America" as they're willing to give Jack credit for creating ALL of Marvel/Timely's characters! Obviously you're more interested in putting Jack on a pedestal so I'll leave you to it! It's been a pleasure wasting my time with you!

[brabon1]

@Elric33239 funny, even when i was a kid i knew that cap had been created by simon and kirby

thing is, i also thought that lee wrote almost all the marvel titles

it wasnt till i was a teen and subscribed to a few fanzines that i learned about the marvel way of creating comics

stan was a very good editor....by his own admission, the artist did most of the creative work

[PoofDuddy]

@brabon1 as if..

[Elric33239]

@brabon1 And while Stan could be called a "figurehead" by people like you, at least he's getting paid for it! Also the "scamming" was perpetuated by others, not Stan!

[brabon1]

@Elric33239 ya...but stan kept his eyes tightly closed...as someone in the tech field who worked for many of these dotcom startups, i knew right away which ones were pure bs...and stan, the consummate business man....chose not to know

[wasteland70]

Jack Kirby was a great, tender, talented man. I knew him, I can vouche for his virtue.

[o82774]

I LOVE Stan.. Met him as a kid. Great guy. Err...clearly he's lying.

His body language coy "innocent" "dumb bunny" "I dunno" while he looks at the sky and whisltes demeanor is sadly telling.

"Jack would have made the same salary as me"

Come on. That NEVER happened lol. its a compelling bluff though.

We all got skeletons in the closet. Jack is Stan's. I love em both though. Excelsior!

[Lonkka665]

"...publisher Archie Goodwin..."

Erm, could it be that you've mistaken the editor-par-excellence Archie Goodwin with Martin Goodman the publisher?

[YusakuJon3]

Very interesting. I always wanted to see what the Man's POV on the King's departure was, and it sort of cements a view that I have of office politics in American industry -- the freelancers often get shafted; the company boys go along, and keep their salaries.

Nothing against Stan. He's quite a character. I wish I have a chance to spend some time with him.

Hades! I wish I had the chance to spend time with Jack when I was a young buck still dreaming of a comicbook career.

[Elric33239]

@YusakuJon3 -- the freelancers often get shafted; the company boys go along, and keep their salaries.

Finally! A voice of reason! It continually pisses me of how "True Believers" love to blame Stan for Jack's being shafted by Marvel execs! I for one don't doubt that Stan's offer was genuine and Jack preferred working on his own clock instead of Marvel's. Sadly, that's what happens when you make bad career choices even if they are for noble reasons - you get hosed by The Moneymen!

[hammerofharpel]

Jack left because publisher Archie Goodwin gave him a horrible offer. Jack always believed that if you did good for the company, they would take care of you. I don't know if Stan ever made such an offer. This comes from a bio of Jack Kirby I read recently. Kirby, in interviews, credits himself for the Fantastic Four. Lee seems to have a good memory for stuff he creates and forgets when it comes to stuff others created. I miss Jack. He was the king of comics.

[4everfrankenstein]

@hammerofharpel You meant publisher MARTIN GOODMAN ( Stan's relative), not Archie Goodwin. i knew Archie- he was a good guy and a big fan of Jack's.

[hammerofharpel]

@4everfrankenstein

Thanks for catching that and you are right!

[itzjoeymac]

imagine the greatness Marvel could have achieved if Kirby had taken Stan's offer! OMG!

[HOOLIGANISM1982]

@itzjoeymac thats was a lie stan said to keep face... stan was a company man jack wasnt plain and simple... jack loved what he did and after doing all he did for marvel in the 60s (he had his hand in everything FF,thor, silversurfer even help ditko's stuff like ironman) and selling the rights to one of the 3 greatest super heroes of all time in captain america (other 2 being batman and superman) so yeah getting a little raise and the credit that was due to him i think wasnt to much to ask

[Elric33239]

@HOOLIGANISM1982 Stan's bosses obviously disagreed with your POV! As for Stan lying, it's amazing how many people have witnessed this event and can confirm that Stan didn't say that! Where did you buy your time machines, folks?

[4everfrankenstein]

@itzjoeymac Kirby would have taken it-if it was ever offered. Stan is LYing, or , excuse me ...misremembering. Read Mark Evanier's book KIRBY for the true story.

[itzjoeymac]

always thought Jack should have been the 'art director' since he already was lol

[muffindude27]

Of course not, I love Stan Lee. Still, Jack and Stan almost always tell completely different stories. It's just tough to choose sides is all...

[JStrange13]

For all their close collaboration in comics, Stan and Jack were never close friends, and I think there was much mutual misunderstanding between the two. Stan has always personally credited Jack with being an equal creative partner, and I don't think he understands that he was the only one who was seeing Jack's importance, back then.

[archer1949]

Kirby's tenure at DC is woefully underrated.

[itzjoeymac]

New Gods 7 is the best comic EVER MADE

[maths23]

Is that the one when Orion found out that Darkseid is his father.

[ramseyrocks]

@archer1949 Hell FUCKING Yes! I'm currently deep into DC's recent Hardcover reprints of Kirby's NEW GODS and it's insanely hard to stay afloat under the crashing waves of his imagination. I read his 8 issues of OMAC before this and the concepts and sinisterness is simply bonkers and genius at the same time

[SHEMAMAN]

I was on the verge of crying when watching the FF-rise of the Silver Surfer movie.

Stan is a wonderful man.

I've met him and he's a generous spirit, but most people on the outskirts of comic book history still think he alone created the characters we love today.

Shame then that nobody is publicly rectifying this appalling oversight.

For example, the Surfer is wholly Jacks creation, but you wouldn't know that from the film.

[Elric33239]

@SHEMAMAN Son of Origins of Marvel Comics Page205 - 208 tell the entire story and at no point did Stan hog all of the credit for himself! He even stated IN PRINT that it was Jack's illustration and explanation of his origin that made the character possible and even when The Surfer had his own book, John Buscema drew it and Stan insisted on writing the plots and dialogue for the character even though Roy Thomas took over many of his other books at the time!

[itzjoeymac]

@SHEMAMAN The FF movies do give proper credit to Jack at the beginning of FF2 you can see CLEARLY 'from the comic by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby'. Of course, the Marvel movies only mention him at the end credits in small type. Something to do with them trying to rob him and him suing lol

[BlakeVII]

@SHEMAMAN Oh yeah, Stan Lee has a generous spirit??

Most of us get that way when are lives are much nearer the end than the beginning. Now that he has earned his ill-gotten millions by accepting all the credit of so many talented artists and plotters who lacked the showmanship and business sense that Stan had, he can afford to be. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he going through a simular situation with marvel?

[worldofpaul12]

@BlakeVII no stan is actually like part of this group that helps new comic creator be well new comic creator widout marvels help hejust does them favors

[sabinoson]

@SHEMAMAN Very sad to read how the Surfer character was essentially taken from him. No disrespect to Stan Lee, since he was great at dialogue, but the plots and characters, I believe, were Kirby's.

As for the movie...Galactus as a cloud? Ouch....

[DemiathDoomhammer]

@sabinoson - the reason they did so was to honor Jack Kirby.. you see, they didn't wanna spoil such a beloved character in the last few minutes of a Fantastic Four movie, by showing him off to a confused audience and then just push the button and start the end credits, they felt Galactus deserved to be fully introduced and developed in a much more respectable way, like that of a potential Silver Surfer origin movie..

[torchwoody58]

@sabinoson Totally agreed. In his book "Son of Origins of Marvel Comics", Stan gave all credit for the Surfer's creation to Kirby. A few years later in a magazine interview, Lee said he came up with the idea. Again, years later in the paperback anthology, "The Ultimate Silver Surfer", Lee gave credit back to Kirby. Can you trust ANYTHING this man says?

[muffindude27]

I love Stan, more than any other comic writer, but I can't help but question if what he said is true.

[JStrange13]

I don't think Stan would lie about it, if that's what you're suggesting.

[4everfrankenstein]

@JStrange13 I get the distinct impression you're a "true believer" like I was when I was 17. I can give Stan his credit where due. But as an adult who's worked in the comic industry since the 1980s I have not only heard Stan LIE publicly, but incredibly LIE in front of people in the room that he should damn well KNOW are privy to the fact he's not telling the truth. But I think like many folks, you really don't want to explore any of these sad things no matter what evidence is laid before you.

[brabon1]

@4everfrankenstein i discovered the truth about marvel when i was 12 and i read about the "marvel way" in a fanzine

it was also through fanzines that i found out why jack had left marvel...it was about that time that i soured on lee

lee was and is a brilliant showman and a great spokesman for the industry...but his creative talent is more in his ability to find great artists for specific projects

the reality of his lack of writing skill showed in his what if series for dc