Recreation of Tragic CCW Class Incident in Mountain Grove, MO

[Excalibur01]

A 1911 can have an ambi safety to flick off but even those with it on the left side you can just move your thumb around and flick it off

[Excalibur01]

See there were 2 ways to do a reaction hand draw without this happening. One is to spin the gun on the holster. You pull the gun up, and use the holster to help you spin it and then get a grip and bring it up or do a leg pinch. Get the gun out as fast as possible, pinch between both legs and grab it.

[wilfred1471]

thanks for the good vidio

[John234pwns]

What weak hand draw method do you guys suggest, instead of the aforementioned dangerous technique?

[1EazyonthebeatZ]

all i wanna know is why were they using a loaded gun? snap caps work just fine!

[HYBRIDCOMBATIVES]

After it is all said and done, and after the comments are made and the arguments presented: Regardless of the drill, and regardless of the situations surrounding the drill the student is dead because he put his finger on the trigger and actuated it. The 4 rules of firearms safety are there for a reason. They are absolute and they are redundant protection. He broke all 4 rules and breaking the 3rd rule (keep finger off of the trigger until ready to fire) killed him.

[HYBRIDCOMBATIVES]

@HYBRIDCOMBATIVES There are much better ways to do a weak hand draw from a strong side holster. The method that got the student killed encourages violations of the 4 firearms rules. It is indeed a poor drill for a single action pistol.

[HYBRIDCOMBATIVES]

I believe the "between the knees" method with the weak hand draw is much safer to attempt. The muzzle is never pointed at the operator, and is always pointed down range throughout the entire maneuver.

[ChuckaXr]

If you don't want people to perform this drill, why are you demonstrating it?

[5bisley]

This is the kind of stupid crap some "instructors" demonstrate on cable tv gun shows. Even on the NRA and SWAT tv shows I've cringed while instructors cover themselves with a loaded gun and do things that would get them booted off any gun range, except the one they own ,of course. There was one where the shooter,surrounded by other men did this "iron" something drill, facing 180 degrees away from the target,drew and fired weak hand using this chest rotation at a target BEHIND HIM! ridiculous!

[SenorSpode]

I was half-expecting Matt, Luis and Sonya from "Operation Repo" to re-enact this. But then again, half the time I expect Sonya to dance "The Watussi" in stiletto heels to "My Humps"...

[J7116R]

I really hate to see something like this. Never assume that someone who are explaining guns to has any sophistication whatsoever unless you have direct evidence of it. I've qualified for expert on an NRA certified pistol range but I never stop thinking of safety from the moment I'm around a firearm. I can remember going hunting with guys and after 10 minutes with them I never let them out of my sight. Some people just cannot pay attention to what they're doing and shouldn't be around a gun.

[Stella76Luna]

Just because someone dies as the result of training does not make that training invalid. The fact that the firearm was loaded during the training AND the fact that the trigger was pulled WHILE it was pointed at the man's chest is the reason the man is dead. This video states that this training should not be done or it should only be done by police due to it's "advanced" nature. I've done this drill, with a cleared weapon and hot. Should be done with a cleared weapon for those with no experience.

[Shorty111R]

Found myself mimicking the what I saw in the video with NO GUN in my hand. Or even a gun close by. Was not expecting the gunshot sound effect. Very scary, caught me off guard. Thanks for this video.

[eagle1505]

We can say, however, that we conduct a very professional and safe course that remains well within the perameters of the course guidelines. Our range qualification is conducted in a professional, and safety oriented manner with a very low student to instructor ratio.

[eagle1505]

For the record this incident did NOT happen at the course given by Eagle Eye Shooting Supply of Mountain Grove, MO. this particular course was given by a private instructor with no affiliation to our business or course. We have been asked by a number of people how this happened, and as we were not there, we cannot say. We can say, however, that we conduct a very professional and safe course that remains well within the perameters of the course guidelines.

[LearnToCarry]

@eagle1505 You are absolutely correct about this NOT happening at Eagle Eye Shooting Supply of Mountain Grove. In making this video, we decided not to name the instructor or business. There are two or more articles in a Springfield newspaper in which the name of the instructor and business have been made public. Be Safe, Tim Oliver

[seniorcombativesinst]

I found this video to be very informative. I have been a leo and firearms instructor since 1988 and I have never taught a non-dominant draw in this manner but have seen some instructors teach some pretty funky things when drawing a pistol. I do know police academies that teach a weak hand draw but after plenty of dry fire practice and up close supervision.

[sjstill]

I hope that instructor was criminally charged, is never allowed to instruct again, and is never allowed to possess a firearm for the rest of his natural life. There is absolutely NO reason to teach a civilian a drill like that, and absolutely NO excuse to make them use a firearm with which the student is unfamiliar.

[InsertTryhardName]

@sjstill Clearly you're more qualified than the instructor simply because of your comment. Lets take one small thing and blow it out of proportion *cough* Criminal charges *cough*. I bet you're part of the Tea Party aren't you?

Regardless, very informative video.

[sjstill]

@InsertTryhardName

Actually, I am an NRA Certified handgun instructor. And, no, I am not a Tea Party member. Generalize much?

[HYBRIDCOMBATIVES]

@sjstill The "Instructor" didn't pull the trigger, and I know plenty of "civilian" shooters that are far more advanced in their tactical firearms skills than the average LEO. While it is tragic, and ridiculous I don't see what criminal charge can be presented until being stupid is a felony. However I agree this guy has no business teaching this drill in a novice based CCW course. I am sure he is full of remorse, but that does repair the mistake.

[Neostar2119]

I find it alarmist in nature that so many "professionals" with x number of years "in the business" so vehemently declare cocked-and-locked carry unsafe.

The fact of the matter is, in a CCW situation, you don't always have all the time in the world to draw and ready (charge or cock) your weapon. The 1911 platform has adequate safeties to carry in it's preferred defensive format; cocked and locked. Observe the 4 rules, and buy quality weapons, and you will never have an issue with Con. 1 carry.

[HYBRIDCOMBATIVES]

@Neostar2119 Indeed. The logic behind carrying a pistol condition 3 is flawed. Anyone with any attention to detail in their training understands that a defensive encounter will not likely be a "duel". It will likely be an ambush. Seconds and reaction time will be precious. Autos always malfunction during cycling, so why would you want to attempt to manually cycle the weapon under extreme duress? the 4 rules are there for a reason. Col.Cooper wasn't a fool.

[HYBRIDCOMBATIVES]

@HYBRIDCOMBATIVES **** certainly I did not meant that "autos WILL malfuction". If that was read wrong I meant that IF they malfunction is will be during the reciprocating action of slide causing a FTF or a FTE. Weapon needs to be ready to go.

[karlrehn]

When our local PD was assessing the Glock, they put a primed case in the chamber (no powder no bullet) and threw the gun out a second story window repeatedly, trying to make it fire when dropped. It passed the test.

[karlrehn]

DA first shot guns like many Berettas and SIGs are not designed to be carried cocked (and some are not drop safe in that condition). The 1911 was designed to be carried in condition 1. One of the instructors that teaches for me was hit while driving his motorcycle and the 1911 in condition 1 in the saddle bag went flying - but did not fire when it landed.

[allee68]

I totally agree the bang at the end is a shocker. Question for those who say do not carry a gun in condition 1? I carry a glock that means I have to carry with one not in the chamber at all, In the amount of time it would take to draw and then rack the slide is not to my likeing. Please explain to me how glock carriers are suppose to carry not in condition 1.

[yorrick5]

10-4, L2C. I'm an instructor as well (exclusively double action only, though), but am not infallible. It still seems like a foreign concept and dangerous (with results illustrated here), but if that's the way 1911s are carried, then who am I to judge?

[LearnToCarry]

The narrator has over 35 years experience in the field of Defensive Pistolcraft Instruction, is a founding member of IPSC and IDPA, and has trained with the likes of Jimmy Cirillo, Jeff Cooper, John Farnham, Ken Hackathorn, and Ray Chapman. I would call Tim a lot of things (including my friend), but "terribly uninformed" is not one of them. Scott Van Kirk, Instructor, Learn To Carry

[karlrehn]

Anyone that carries a 1911 or Hi power needs an ambi safety on the gun to avoid the problem of having to work a right-handed thumb safety left-handed. Difficulty with the manipulation of that type pistol one handed is one of several reasons I quit carrying a 1911 and switched to a polymer striker fired pistol (XD and now M&P).

[Galt425]

In a non dominant draw (not a beginner idea) I wonder what people are teaching? On single stack guns like the high power, at least with my hands, moving the non dominant thumb across behind the slide and hitting the safety leaves a good grip with the fronts of the fingers and doesn't disturb the grip angle on the gun.

I'm surprised officers aren't taught non dominant draw with a turn to fire. -I've- never done that myself but I would want to think LEO around me -are-. Sorry for the tragic loss.

[karlrehn]

The 1911 is perfectly safe to carry cocked and locked. 30+ years of graduates of Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, IPSC and IDPA shooters, law enforcement units like the Texas Rangers and FBI SRT have carried the 1911 cocked and locked with no issues. The 1911 has 2 (and in some cases 3 safeties) engaged when it's in condition 1. Anyone claiming to be a firearms instructor should understand these basic principles and the mechanical design of the 1911 pistol

[bcwoods67]

@karlrehn

I didn't say it couldn't be done. In my opinion it's not safe to carry a firearm already cocked in the holster. The key word here is MECHANICAL. Mechanics fail all the time. I rather be safe than sorry and shoot myself in the foot.

[yorrick5]

The narrator of the video says that the Browning is meant to be carried/holstered cocked? What?! I cannot imagine a more dangerous way to carry your pistol, safety on or no. This is what killed the man.

Also, @kattayanna: I'm guessing that this pistol doesn't have an ambidextrous safety. He drew with his weak hand (left), so hitting the safety with his thumb was probably a difficult (if not impossible) maneuver.

[LearnToCarry]

@yorrick5 carrying the Browning is much like carrying a 1911. Many people carry them with the hammer cocked, the safety on, and one in the chamber. This is "Condition 1" or more commonly known as "cocked and locked." There is much debate on carrying like this, but most who carry a single action only pistol carry in Condition 1. In the event that you would have to use the firearm (we hope you'll never have to) simply removing the safety to make ready to fire is most efficient.

[domcplnc]

@yorrick5 It's not dangerous. I've carried (and dropped) 1911s carried the same way for a couple years without problems.

[TheDaedalEVE]

@yorrick5

If you carry, you should be in condition one or condition two. I prefer condition one with my USP. Glocks, being striker fire, are always carried in condition one.

[grimel2]

@yorrick5 without an ambidextrous safety, the safety should have been disengaged by the LH thumb going "over" the slide. This is the reason a 1911/HP should have an ambidextrous safety even if the owner is RH.

[BALJIT147]

@yorrick5 Actually that is the way that the gun was designed to be carried so I don't understand why you wouldn't. What got that man killed was doing a stupid maneuver with a firearm

[utp216]

Shame the guy wasn't being taught this drill with a Glock type weapon. 1911 style handguns are not for beginning shooters. Hate to hear stories like this.

[Valkyrie1911]

Who the hell thought of that technique?

[bcwoods67]

As a veteran of 25 years of Law Enforcement and been through many firearms classes and a NRA certified CCW instructor, I can say... NEVER carry a firearm already cocked in the holster. Safety on OR off. That's asking for trouble and not practicing proper firearms safety. I agree with everything else about this informational video.

[grimel2]

@bcwoods67 : I guess you haven't been through a firearms class with a functional instructor. You have just proven why people shouldn't ask LEO about firearms. The 1911 and Browning HP are designed for condition 1 carry.

[bcwoods67]

@grimel2 You clearly haven't read all my comments. 

[grimel2]

@bcwoods67 No need.  This is enough "As a veteran of 25 years of Law Enforcement and been through many firearms classes and a NRA certified CCW instructor, I can say... NEVER carry a firearm already cocked in the holster."

That is an uniformed statement.

[bcwoods67]

@grimel2 Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Even you. I am the first to say I don't know everything. But I also hold my own opinions. My opinion about you would not be objective, because I don't know you, same as you don't know me. Therefore, I'll keep my opinion to myself.

[usmarine1stLtAZ]

@grimel2 Active duty cops and military should have their guns loaded and chambered. This does not apply to primary/secondary weapons. That "fraction" of a second wasted, is one to two seconds given to the threat to accomplish their mission. When you come under fire you dont instantly react. Time is precious. I respect your choice, but why not carry a .357 revolver instead?

[grimel2]

@usmarine1stLtAZ Other than I don't want to carry a revolver. I don't recall ever saying if or what I carry. It isn't related to knowing how a single action auto operates or to understand when someone starts with "I am an expert with X years and Y classes" then proceeds to spout known garbage. Some people make it a habit to say stupid things that make all NRA instructors look incompetent.

[usmarine1stLtAZ]

@grimel2 My apology sir. My reply was meant to be for bcwoods67. Yes we're pretty much on the same page with our opinion on bcwoods67's "I am an expert with X years and Y classes" comment .

[grimel2]

@usmarine1stLtAZ No harm no foul. Sometimes it gets confusing. My daughter will be traveling over an hour for her handgun classes because I don't trust just everyone with a shingle to teach her and my friend is closer than I am. ;)

[HYBRIDCOMBATIVES]

@usmarine1stLtAZ wisdom.

[Theplateau]

Thanks for posting this video. It goes a long way in educating people on how this did, and could, happen.

This man should never have been attempting this technique and He also should not have been allowed to use a firearm which he had little experience.

Also, the bang at the end was unexpected, but very effective at driving the point home.

Good job.

[kattayanna]

i do this draw all the time with a 1911. you use your thumb to release the safety and never point a pistol at your self.

[Theplateau]

@kattayanna

Does the Browning he was using have an ambidextrous safety, or just a right handed safety?

If it has a safety lever on either side then it is logical that he could have done as you suggest, but if it doesn't , using his thumb would have been just as awkward. Especially for an inexperienced shooter using a firearm He had little or no range time with.

My Handgun Carry Permit class instructor had us to fire our weapons using our "offhand" but he did not require us to use this method

[ximtropolis]

Thank you for posting this video. This is one case where we cannot learn from our OWN mistakes. I hope more shooters take the time to watch this and learn from this unfortunate incident.

[localcrew]

That *POW* at the end scared me!

[Ramrodicus]

Thanks for posting this, so we can all see how and why that happened.