The Hebrew word for circle is "chuwg". In any geometry class you will learn that a circle is a 2 dimensional flat object. The hebrew word for a 3 dimensional object like a ball is "Duwr". Not to mention there are 20 passages saying "corners" and "edges" of the earth. I would like to believe too, but I am not going to twist facts to get there.
"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." Job 26:7 ........he new the earth was round and that it is in space . The Holy Bible is true. Fighting is wasting your life. Seek God through Jesus Christ the Son of God now.
@chestveeg Yes I know. It's the best line that the bible has got to defend against the flat earth view, I feel it's a weak defence. Here is one reason why the earth does not hang ... it actually falls. The oppsite of that bible verse is true. Secondly the earth is not "over" anything. There is no up in space. The bible is written from a flat earth point of view, by ancient people doing the best they could with limited knowledge.
@Danmill23 God shows you images and visions. He doesn't give science lessons. The passage is simply a man describing what he has seen. Remember this is thousands of years ago. In Revalation a "a locust with a with a breast plate of steel and wings that sound like a thousand horses" is described. Sounds like a helicopter to me. I think sin clouds the minds of those that don't know Jesus. You have to study the Word and you will have decrement.
@Danmill23 before you "study" The Word of God. Try praying for understanding ,do it Jesus's name. Honestly ask Him. Being that you don't believe doing so shouldn't bother u. After "studying" meditate on what you have read in the New Testement often. The door is openn all you have to do is come in. The Holy Spirit will overtake you.Your view of yourself will change. But do it honestly.
@Danmill23 Once upon a time perhaps but now i know better. It's like the apostles they were willing to die to spread the message of Jesus Christ because As Jesus said " Those on the side of truth hear my voice" You like Pilate ask " what is truth." even though your looking at itt he next time you read the Word remember the Word "IS" God. Your perspective is wrong in my opinion. Enjoy your rest!
@chestveeg The earth doesn't hang upon nothing and isn't a circle, plus you have to remember all the verses where it says the earth has foundations and pillars. Stop cherrypicking,
@Reasonwillwin 1 Samuel 2:8 is where it speaks of foundations and it says " the foundations of the earth are the Lords". That basically means (God keeps everything together / makes everything work and nothing "exist" without him). Honestly you have to receive the Holy Spirit and except Christ before you will understand what your reading.
@hostyle0 10 points for effective communication! Great question.
The short answer is I don't have any solid answer. Describing the earth as "hanging" is odd when in reality the earth is doing the exact oppsite. The earth is "falling" around the sun. That seems an odd way for the creator of the universe to describe his creation. Also "hanging" in relation to a spherical earth seems to missunderstand how gravity works. Hanging implies and "up". Cont A
Must best guess (for it really is not much more than a guess) is as follows.
"Northern skies and empty place" may be a reference to the dark patch of sky around which the stars appear to rotate. Check a time lapse photo of the night sky. The pole is in the north.
"Hang over nothing" may be a reference to the chaotic deep. The bottomless waters that the flat earth "floats" on. Cont B
Finally putting the two lines together you get a kind of a doubling. A poetic symetry. This sort of thing is not uncommon in Hebrew writings. As follows...
i always thought of it as the 'cycles' of the earth. the circle of life. god is not a part of that circle; therefore he is above it. i don't think isaiah was even trying to even guess at the shape of the earth. he knew that was too controversial a subject, and that if he was wrong, it would make him a false prophet. there's my 2 cents.
This is so simple a child could understand it. Take a ball and ask your child what shape is this ? A Circle. I have asked soo many evolution Fairytale believers show me evidence that the Bible Gods living world says the earth is flat. they almost all run and a few have pointed to this verse saying a circle is flat. evolutionists cant prove anything in the Bible wrong so they try to twist what God says just like the serpant in the garden.
@coolvideo28 Has it ever crossed your mind that you are wrong? Of course it has. If you choose to watch the other episodes I build my case. I also show why it is a flat circle not a sphere. You can more easily understand being "above" a flat horizontal circle, but being "above" a spherical earth? But you are right there is no specific line saying flat earth, but the flat earth is ALL through the bible. How can the sun stop in the sky? (a small light could) Tower of bable? Noahs flood?
Isaiah uses the word "chug" to mean "circle" in ch. 40. Elsewhere in the OT chug is used to describe the floor of a tent. There is no reference that chug means sphere. Its alternate meanings are vault or horizon. Isaiah describes the heavens as a tent, and that the circle is sat on. The analogy is clear that the earth and heavens is like a big tent with a flat round mat. The interesting thing is that in Isaiah 22 the word "ball" appears. The word used is "dure" or "Kad-dur". Why not use that?
I'm not so sure "Dure" means ball. I think it means something more like "all wraped up" or "bundled up". Look for other instances in the bible it is used to describe an army seige of a city as well. something like this "My army - Dure - the city". I forget now... good question.
@Danmill23 That seems to fit with the isaiah reference which uses dure to mean ball as in the way a hand is curled up to make a fist, but is seems to be the closest word in the OT that I could find for the geometrical shape of a ball or sphere. In the NT a different word for sphere is used but that has the meaning of realm. My reference was the site biblio, and I went to the lexicon section for these verses to get the original meanings of these words. Good video!
Dude the last guy said repeatedly that the meaning of circle could also mean flat. You point out each time he says round with graphics while ignoring all the times he said flat. Your unfair. What Isaiah actually meant can be seen from both views and makes one side as invalid or as valid as the other. To use this for a foundation for an arguement is ridiculous
give it up, the bible claims to be divinely inspired, but it is indispuatble WRONG on many well established facts. The bible speaks of taking a person to a 'High place' from where all the kingdoms of the earth can be seen. there is no single point ANYWHERE from which all the human population of the earth can be seen, not even from the moon. In order to embrace religion you must reject reality, so quit trying to rationalize the bible, its wrong, you know its wrong, so just keep pretending.
We take it for granted that we have meaning in these constructs in life, but we just never wonder why humans or life in general should have meaning empiricaly, a molecule to man meaning. Then were just talking cosmic debris wasting good oxygen, planetary parasite.
This is an argument of semantics, Come on, your much more intelligent to believe that this flat earth belief system was limited to Christians.Contemporary interpretations of the bible has nothing to do with the point I made, and I didnt quite get your response to my original question. The logic is flawed if the implication is that Christianity is holding back science. It is historically inaccurate. Many of our most fundamental principles of science were discovered by men of faith. This is silly
Ill check out your video but I'm still trying to figure out what your implying by pointing out different interpretations of the bible. If your point is that there was ignorance of a spherical world among western society of many who were christian then, so what. What point are u trying to make. Is it your belief that the atheist of that period were any less unsophisticated. Whats your point
Thanks. Look the video is just an investigation into the use of the word "circle" in the bible. Some claim it means sphere.
I'm just trying to show how the believers of this world often let their beliefs get away from them and start to read into the bible instead of read from it.
I'm simply trying to show that circle means circle.
Have u ever thought about adding the question of how utterly irrelevant any of this dialogue or any human thought for that matter is in the sense of a purely materialist unguided universe. If human constructs evolved to produce notions of intelligence morality, good and bad etc then the universe doesn't give a fuck, Were just animated star dust and u and I are only participating in an exorcise in mental masturbation. Satisfaction of thought expression, nothing more nothing less.
Thank you for doing this video series, it is a pleasure to meet one, such as yourself, who can think and reason for themselves. I have never been comfortable with the dumbing down and the forcing upon the population belief that the earth is a globe.
You can infinitely loop around a flat disc in the same way you loop around a sphere. (now we have to argue if god forgiveness can turn a 90 or 180 degree corner in a short space of time c}; ... a non-ending argument don't wish to get into.)
My point about the torus is that your argument works equally well for a torus shaped earth. and by extension almost any shape. You argument does not distinguish. It works just as well to prove a torus earth.
Ok Quad let me try again to show you why I feel the argument is weak.
Now the forever business is a highly debatable interpretation, but you seem to need this for the analogy to work. Now let's say I grant you this.
New problem 1) - A torus is a 3d geometric shape like a donut. Irrespective of how you orient east and west,, they both continue forever "never meeting" (as you claim). So your evidence is equally valid for the torus as the sphere. Cont ...
Could the ancient Hebrews Have thought we lived on a torus?
But lets go one step further. Surely your "forever direction on surface" rule also support a cubic earth? If gods forgiveness can make a 360 degree turn on a sphere surely it can cope with a cube.
And finally why cannot gods forgiveness forever loop around a flat disc?
This is a big part of the problem, there is no firm evidence to lock onto here. The verse is not actually talking about shapes.
New problem 2) Much more serious problem. As you might know. And as you have posted above, our Hebrew cousins did not have a word for East or West. Ancient Hebrew is not an abstract language. It does not have concepts. The words WE translate as east and west are really descriptions of locations. "Where the sun comes up" and "where the sun sets" is what is actually meant as you your self quoted. Cont....
Now as I have said earlier the previous verse names a finite distance (but un-measured) namely from the earth to the heavens.
In psa 103:12 it also measures a finite but unmeasured distance. That is (ancient Hebrew remember) ... From the place the sun rises to the place the sun sets.
Both of these are GREAT distances. This great unmeasured size is used as an analogy for aspects of God.
Right Listen Quag you are starting to piss me off.
You accusation of my bias is unfounded. I called your argument weak (for reasons above) because it is weak NOT because I cannot refute it. I called your argument weak BECAUSE I AM NOT BIASED. A biased person would dismiss out of hand your argument. I can look at it objectively and see that it does have some merit, but not enough to be convincing. Thus I call it weak evidence for your case. Cont ...
I do not see how the flat earth analogy cannot do the exact same job. ( be it finite or not)
BTW I do not think this verse proves a flat earth either.
In conclusion for these reasons I find the argument to be weak. It definitely cannot prove a shape of the earth and has little value as supporting evidence either.
It is amazing to me that you can be so dogmatic and self delusional. It is (partly) this amazing spectacle that I wish to understand.
I have heard your explanations. Psa 103:12 is weak evidence for a biblical spherical earth. You can see your self you need thousands of words to explain it. I have studied this issue in detail and I have never heard anyone else use this argument. If you accept evidence this weak as proof ... no wonder your a "believer".
This is part of someone else's rebuttal to Mr Pykes claim.
"The vast distance between the place where the sun rises and where it sets would most likely have provided more than enough separation for theological purposes. Be that as it may, considering the worldview of the ancient Hebrews, only someone engaged in desperation hermeneutics would attempt to construe this verse as being indicative of a spherical earth. " - Jack DeBaun
YT refuses web address. You'll need to google search for it.
Yes I agree that west is a direction. But "THE west" and "THE east" are places. Abstract places far apart. In fact opposite to each other. Horizontally opposite. Flatly opposite.
Side to side opposite. The east side and the west side.
Check Psa 103:11 It talks about extreme distances but this time vertically. Up and down. From Heaven to earth.
Quag you can believe what you feel is best.
But if you that fired up pls watch the other three in the series and ripp 'em apart!
"as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us." psa 103:12
I think the verse might be refering to places.
"as far as THE east is from THE west ... "
To me Quag this is simply trying to express a great distance. It is trying to express magnitude. Check Psa 103:11 it also is expressing the concept of a great distance between to locations.
Quag ... I'm not being dogmatic and "obstructionary" I really (objectively) don't think Psa 103:12 makes any sort of good case for a spherical earth. The direction of E&W end up in the same place on a sphere. But on a flat plane they are clearly never going to meet and will always (if limited) be at extremes from each other. If anything I'm now starting to think it might be more of an evidence for a flat earth.
Either way we must remember the quote is not about geography.
I'm not sure what you mean about the curved horizon. Please watch my other videos in the series. (if you haven't)
I'd like to get your thoughts.
I talk about the circle a little more and discuss other bible verses.
Cheers
------------
BTW If your interested I have another 4 episodes in production. These will include the objections that people have raised. But the episodes won't be complete for a few weeks yet. I'll try and remember your Psa verse.
Second : Not very sound thinking ... for example you could say on a spherical earth east MEETS west. They actually get closer together. But a on flat earth east and west never meet. Good try but I'm not on accepting this one.
Third : the flat earth does have a circular horizon! Go out side ... the earth looks flat and the horizon make a circle around you and you are it's center. A flat circle.
A true circle is theoretical, it does not exist mathmatically. Same with a sphere, curves are a series of small angles, and can never be perfectly formed. Just saying, its kinda interesting.
When is a spere not a circle? When is a cube not square? When is a pyramid not a triangle?
You cannot get, without designating the angles and distances first, a spere without a circle, a cube without a square, or a pyramid without a tirangle.
One thing you've left out (and I don't know if you're planning on getting to it or not):
Isaiah 22:18: "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball* into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house."
*-Strong's 1754, "duwr," meaning "ball" or "circle." Unlike chuwg, duwr can mean a 3-dimensional ball or sphere. If Isaiah had meant for the Earth to be a sphere in 40:22, then why didn't he use "duwr" instead?
did you pay attention to the rest of the verse.. the verse that describes the circle as viewed from a perspective? if this is your excuse for denying god, see how well it holds up in judgement. maybe by then you will finally have a valid proof of the big bang theory lol, youre going to believe what you like, good luck
if youre going to take it literally then the word you are looking for is disc.. and some bibles do say sphere, now since you have spent too much time failing to debunk this.. try debunking job 26:7 for even more wasted time and failure
i'm sure you do. i will watch them in time, as long as you are willing to admit that the word circle does not always mean disc, and acknowledge that a few bibles do translate the circle as sphere, one calls it an arch, but none say disc. want to know why? rent an old kung fu flick, put on subtitles and play the english overdub.. see how easy things get lost in translation between only 2 languages.
@displaced36 job 26:7 says that the earth is floating free, wow, must be divine!!!!!!! Man, sorry, but you will never realise how rediculous your arguments are
the old "i am not able to believe, and i still judge faith, even tho i have none to even understand what it truely is, and i probably wont know until its too late when i finally die, because i am way too proud to admit that my limited imagination can not phathom infinity, becausescience says it is impossible, yet supports the big bang theory that means something came from nothing which is also impossible by science, yet, it is actually possible by creation of a supernatural being" arguement.
Just a quick addition. despite what you may have heard, (as I understand it) the big bang is not a something from nothing issue. It's a complicated issue and there are many "red herrings". As you may know e=mc^2. This means matter can become and is the same as energy. This is how the entire universe can be packet into a impossibly small space. Basically it is so hot that matter cannot exist ... just energy. I can direct you to some reliable explinations if you wish.
Round implies curvature, which is explicitly two dimensional. It doesn't imply three-dimensionality of the sphere at all. Sphere is round, but that doesn't mean that round is spherical.
I'm not claiming, I'm stating fact. And besides, Martin Luther could speak fluent ancient Greek at the age of 12. And to speak ancient Greek, fluently, is very, very hard.
I am not an adherent of Biblical inerrancy but this does not invalidate the collection of books within the Bible. As of yet I am just convinced of the resurrection Yehsua among other things of course but my belief hinges upon this historical event. I will not argue it here and I would discourage generalized responses as there is not enough space here to truly discuss this. Anyways, great vid Dan! Although... why use the KJV?
Good to hear from you. Also good to hear about you not adhering to biblical in errancy.
I will not attempt to address the resurrection. I'm only really trying to show that the bible is not a "science" book.
As for the KJV. Most of the fundamentalists in the world appear to revere the KJV as "gods word in english". Some (Mackquigley) believe it to be superior to the Hebrew texts. (???)
So I need to address issues from that point of view.
Fundamentalists are an odd bunch. It seems strange that people would use the KJV instead of a more modern translation which employs older manuscripts. I am still trying to learn Hebrew so maybe one day I shall read it in the original and certainly more superior (in this regard) language. As for your upcoming videos, will you address those who say Genesis is not meant to be taken literally but allegorically as some very early Christians thought? Either way I always enjoy your vids! :-)
I imagine I'll leave it up to the viewer on how to understand genesis. My main goal is to show how the Hebrew cosmology is different from our own. However I also find is quite beautiful, even logical and in some ways respectable but not what we know today. I have most of this series planned and my last episode will show why I think this.
To come to a conclusion that the Hebrew word חוג (hhug, btw, the "hh" is pronounced hard, like the "ch" in the name Bach) means a sphere is pure speculation and an attempt to make the text fit with reality. This Hebrew word is only used three times in the Bible and it, nor any other ancient literature properly defines this word more than just a "circle."
Great series Danmill, I especially like your approach... Let's check the opinions of others, the texts and the facts and then come to some conclusions.
I think Isaiah 40:22 was intended to describe God's perspective of Earth: the Earth was so small to God's eyes that it appeared as if a Circle to him.
That would be fine but you are forgetting the second part of the verse. It says that the heavens were a tent. In other parts of the bible they are referred to as a dome. This totally kills the idea that he was talking about a view of the Earth because the heavens would NOT look like a dome in space. Also it is pretty telling that the writers referred to the heavens as a dome. We've all seen the superbowl and we know what a dome looks like.
a) The atmosphere - enveloping the earth "like a tent (canopy)" ; or
b) The boundaries of the universe (itself spherical).
Most likely (b), since the atmosphere, too, would appear as a circle to God.
The heavens are sphere-like. A sphere can be thought of as 2 conjoined domes. The 'dome' that demands God's visual focus (and perspective) is the upper dome...He looks down at His creation, not up.
There is no mention of a double dome. No sphere either. Remember a tent sits on a flat surface.
If you could find some ... say scriptural passages about a double dome or the heavens being a sphere then you'd have something, but (as I show in my following videos) there is not reason to believe this, except from a modern perspective.
I back up everything that I say in my videos ... pls watch them.
I wish the writers of Isaiah 40:22 had consulted with a certain Editor-in-Chief before finalizing their choice of words. And maybe I should have thought about my insights before posting them. :P
Your attempt at rationalizing your flawed holy book is quite entertaining. I think Danmill has pretty much proved my point with the idea that,
"Remember a tent sits on a flat surface."
If your god is such an expert when it comes to circles and the bible is without flaw, why did it get the number for Pi wrong? The bible says that Pi is equal to 3. Every high school student that has had geometry knows that Pi is 3.14.... Does god need some tutoring in math along with better depth perception?
The passage should have said "one handbreath and a third". The Bible must not have liked to use decimal numbers, esp. in this case, since only integers were comprehensible by the illiterate masses.
(I don't speak ancient Hebrew, but I have a background in linguistics: I'm both an interpreter and translator.) You have to look at the original word, not the English, to see if in fact the original encompasses the meaning of what in English you call round. It's pointless to focus on the word "circle." Doing so, you're really finding fault with St. Jerome, not the author. Only a Hebraist can answer this question, not some graduate of Liberty Univ. who's still has hayseeds in his hair.
I think that it is fairly obvious that circle of the earth was referring to a flat disk. I come to this conclusion when considering the next part of scripture... "stretched out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a TENT TO DWELL IN"
To me the entire passage is describing a flat disk with a dome above it. This would also be backed up with the knowledge that The ancient Babylon, Egyptian, pre-classical Greek, Indian and Chinese cultures all believed the earth was flat.
just a little constructive critizism: You are waaaayyy to slow. Seriously. Speed up a little. everything you say in this clip could be said in less then 20 seconds.
I think the idea is that some people think that the bible is word-for-word what God wanted in it... and if that were true, why include disinformation?
Exactly, I'm assuming that they just used information relevant to them at the time, and thus it was wrong. But of course when you use enough poetic language, you can basically interpret it to be anything.
Yes, but that's just it, due to the time they were living in, they probably seen the heavens as dome shaped and the earth as flat, I think the context of which Isaiah 40:22 is written still stands as a testament to their limited knowledge. Although, I find it trivial to argue this, because no matter how you interpret it, whether flat or spherical, it still doesn't prove the Bible to be true. I just find it more likely that they meant it to be a circle.
I believe the earth is a short cylinder. if you look at it from one side it will appear to be a circle. if you look at it turned 90' it will appear to be a square.
It is very convenient for ignorant atheists to claim that the circle in the bible means the earth is flat, even though the verse is found in one of the most POETIC books of the bible, and it says "God sat on it" (poetry!), even though people during those days thought that the earth was SQUARE and flat, and, most importantly, even though there was no word for sphere in those days. What the Jews believed does not matter. The bible itself makes us know that the wise did not understand its secrets.
Sorry, I have better things to do than to do with my time than to watch this series. Maybe I would care if I didn't have a personal relationship with God. My point about the wise is that the Jews never understood the bible well, no one did. The Jews crucified Christ and replaced a lot of truth/principles with tradition. That's all.
Well Dan, I see you have given three posters "Top of the class" appointment by virtue of your ability to have words mean more than one thing.
I also see Mack has come out with a video response to this which is two parts.
I am positive you are already changing your next episode. You know why Dan? Because every time you say something wrong about the bible Mack takes the time to correct you. Rather than you admitting you are wrong, you change the subject.
Sorry, that video is just... nope. I mean, it is interesting, but it is an imaginative, illusive fabrication based on Mark's own fantastic understanding and not scriptural or scientific truth.
Hey this was great! Favored! Nice job love the use of other videos as a collection of views. I did a video on the topic last year and thought I would post it here. I possibly should have sent it privately because you maybe covering such topics later. However it may be able to give you some other leads you may find interesting. I did not intend to post this to steal any kind of thunder but thought it relevant to the topic . This video was just laying around so I thought to reuse it here.
The Hebrew word for circle is "chuwg". In any geometry class you will learn that a circle is a 2 dimensional flat object. The hebrew word for a 3 dimensional object like a ball is "Duwr". Not to mention there are 20 passages saying "corners" and "edges" of the earth. I would like to believe too, but I am not going to twist facts to get there.
Information39 6 months ago
@Information39 Corners mean North,South,East,West.
MrUrosSrb 1 month ago
@MrUrosSrb Show me a non religious site saying corners meant "North, South, East, West"?
Information39 1 month ago
the earth is round like your face!!! wuts with the close up dude? you look fuckin creepy you fat bastard!!!!!!!!
spider760 6 months ago
@spider760 lol ... Boo you skinny looser.
Danmill23 6 months ago
"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." Job 26:7 ........he new the earth was round and that it is in space . The Holy Bible is true. Fighting is wasting your life. Seek God through Jesus Christ the Son of God now.
chestveeg 9 months ago
@chestveeg Yes I know. It's the best line that the bible has got to defend against the flat earth view, I feel it's a weak defence. Here is one reason why the earth does not hang ... it actually falls. The oppsite of that bible verse is true. Secondly the earth is not "over" anything. There is no up in space. The bible is written from a flat earth point of view, by ancient people doing the best they could with limited knowledge.
Danmill23 9 months ago
@Danmill23 God shows you images and visions. He doesn't give science lessons. The passage is simply a man describing what he has seen. Remember this is thousands of years ago. In Revalation a "a locust with a with a breast plate of steel and wings that sound like a thousand horses" is described. Sounds like a helicopter to me. I think sin clouds the minds of those that don't know Jesus. You have to study the Word and you will have decrement.
chestveeg 9 months ago
@chestveeg Sure. I don't know what you mean by that last comment. But I agree the passage is a simple man describing what he sees.
Would you be impressed if I said that you disagree with me becaue aliens are infecting your mind?
If you assume some evil or unseen force is stopping people seeing what other people see .... How do you know you are not one of it's victims?
Danmill23 9 months ago
@Danmill23 My bad spelling sorry . I meant you have to study the Word of God for discernment . The Bible is rich with knowledge.
chestveeg 9 months ago
@chestveeg I do understand what you are saying ... sort of. But I have studied the bible and I don't find Gods word to be there ...
What I hear from you is ... believe that the bible is Gods word and then read it and you can find confirmation.
I can do that with Moby Dick ...): and the muslims do the very same trick with the Koran ... Something else explains this better.
But there is a good chance I do not in fact understand the nuances of what you are trying to say.
Danmill23 9 months ago
@Danmill23 before you "study" The Word of God. Try praying for understanding ,do it Jesus's name. Honestly ask Him. Being that you don't believe doing so shouldn't bother u. After "studying" meditate on what you have read in the New Testement often. The door is openn all you have to do is come in. The Holy Spirit will overtake you.Your view of yourself will change. But do it honestly.
chestveeg 9 months ago
@chestveeg I am enjoying our conversation ... But it is very later here and I must sleep.
I have the perfect answer to your suddgestion.
... I already have done exactly that. More than once. Exactly as you describe. And with all the deep honest I can muster.
I am an atheist. I do not believe. This is not my presupposition, this is my conclusion.
Would you recomment I try again?
and again?
Would you reccomend I try and not stop until I believe?
Would you do this to become an atheist?
Danmill23 9 months ago
@chestveeg Argh youtube ate my comment.
I am enjoying this converastion but It's late and I must sleep.
However my answer to you is I have done exactly what you ask. Exactly.
I don't believe it. This is my conclusion not my presupposition.
Would you ask me to do it again? How many times? Untill I do believe?
Would you try to become an athiest and not stop untill you are?
Where exactly in the bible do you see God?
Danmill23 9 months ago
@Danmill23 Once upon a time perhaps but now i know better. It's like the apostles they were willing to die to spread the message of Jesus Christ because As Jesus said " Those on the side of truth hear my voice" You like Pilate ask " what is truth." even though your looking at itt he next time you read the Word remember the Word "IS" God. Your perspective is wrong in my opinion. Enjoy your rest!
chestveeg 9 months ago
@chestveeg Nice one dude. Cheers.
Danmill23 9 months ago
@chestveeg The earth doesn't hang upon nothing and isn't a circle, plus you have to remember all the verses where it says the earth has foundations and pillars. Stop cherrypicking,
Reasonwillwin 7 months ago
@Reasonwillwin 1 Samuel 2:8 is where it speaks of foundations and it says " the foundations of the earth are the Lords". That basically means (God keeps everything together / makes everything work and nothing "exist" without him). Honestly you have to receive the Holy Spirit and except Christ before you will understand what your reading.
Number1Smallville 7 months ago
@Number1Smallville No you are wrong you have to be a "god hating" athiest to understand the bible. (;
Danmill23 7 months ago
Let me ask you how you explain Job 26? (Im seriously asking - not being a smart ass)
hostyle0 10 months ago
@hostyle0 10 points for effective communication! Great question.
The short answer is I don't have any solid answer. Describing the earth as "hanging" is odd when in reality the earth is doing the exact oppsite. The earth is "falling" around the sun. That seems an odd way for the creator of the universe to describe his creation. Also "hanging" in relation to a spherical earth seems to missunderstand how gravity works. Hanging implies and "up". Cont A
Danmill23 10 months ago
@Danmill23 Cont A
Must best guess (for it really is not much more than a guess) is as follows.
"Northern skies and empty place" may be a reference to the dark patch of sky around which the stars appear to rotate. Check a time lapse photo of the night sky. The pole is in the north.
"Hang over nothing" may be a reference to the chaotic deep. The bottomless waters that the flat earth "floats" on. Cont B
Danmill23 10 months ago
@Danmill23 Cont B
Finally putting the two lines together you get a kind of a doubling. A poetic symetry. This sort of thing is not uncommon in Hebrew writings. As follows...
blah-blah empty above
blah-blah empty below
That's what I have right now.
Thanks for asking. You have any thoughts?
Danmill23 10 months ago
i always thought of it as the 'cycles' of the earth. the circle of life. god is not a part of that circle; therefore he is above it. i don't think isaiah was even trying to even guess at the shape of the earth. he knew that was too controversial a subject, and that if he was wrong, it would make him a false prophet. there's my 2 cents.
hardhick 11 months ago
@hardhick Thanks for that dude. Never heard that perspective before. Nice one.
Danmill23 11 months ago
Go read Job 26:7-10 LOL...
BrophyBass 11 months ago
@BrophyBass Who job?
Danmill23 11 months ago
This is so simple a child could understand it. Take a ball and ask your child what shape is this ? A Circle. I have asked soo many evolution Fairytale believers show me evidence that the Bible Gods living world says the earth is flat. they almost all run and a few have pointed to this verse saying a circle is flat. evolutionists cant prove anything in the Bible wrong so they try to twist what God says just like the serpant in the garden.
coolvideo28 1 year ago
@coolvideo28 Has it ever crossed your mind that you are wrong? Of course it has. If you choose to watch the other episodes I build my case. I also show why it is a flat circle not a sphere. You can more easily understand being "above" a flat horizontal circle, but being "above" a spherical earth? But you are right there is no specific line saying flat earth, but the flat earth is ALL through the bible. How can the sun stop in the sky? (a small light could) Tower of bable? Noahs flood?
Danmill23 1 year ago
Isaiah uses the word "chug" to mean "circle" in ch. 40. Elsewhere in the OT chug is used to describe the floor of a tent. There is no reference that chug means sphere. Its alternate meanings are vault or horizon. Isaiah describes the heavens as a tent, and that the circle is sat on. The analogy is clear that the earth and heavens is like a big tent with a flat round mat. The interesting thing is that in Isaiah 22 the word "ball" appears. The word used is "dure" or "Kad-dur". Why not use that?
snoberts 1 year ago
@snoberts- Good question.
I'm not so sure "Dure" means ball. I think it means something more like "all wraped up" or "bundled up". Look for other instances in the bible it is used to describe an army seige of a city as well. something like this "My army - Dure - the city". I forget now... good question.
Danmill23 1 year ago
@Danmill23 That seems to fit with the isaiah reference which uses dure to mean ball as in the way a hand is curled up to make a fist, but is seems to be the closest word in the OT that I could find for the geometrical shape of a ball or sphere. In the NT a different word for sphere is used but that has the meaning of realm. My reference was the site biblio, and I went to the lexicon section for these verses to get the original meanings of these words. Good video!
snoberts 1 year ago
@snoberts Thanks dude. If you are interested (as I am) ...
I too went looking for a sperical shape in the OT. If you feel like it, investigate the use of the word "Pomegranate".
(A sperical fruit)
Danmill23 1 year ago
constant denial of God danny boy nice try lol
rahsillyyoo 1 year ago
@rahsillyyoo I cannot deny the "argument from booty" on your channel. My mistake god is real. Pa-donk!
Danmill23 1 year ago
Dude the last guy said repeatedly that the meaning of circle could also mean flat. You point out each time he says round with graphics while ignoring all the times he said flat. Your unfair. What Isaiah actually meant can be seen from both views and makes one side as invalid or as valid as the other. To use this for a foundation for an arguement is ridiculous
TheServantofiam 1 year ago
@TheServantofiam
Well done now you're getting it.
Danmill23 1 year ago
Good vid. very well-produced.. so Sweet hearing your aussie accent.
(It took me back downunder :)
ArtWerkZ 1 year ago
@ArtWerkZ Cheers ArtWerkZ welcome back any time dude.
Danmill23 1 year ago
@MrHobiecat.
The high place is called HEAVEN.
hat655 1 year ago
give it up, the bible claims to be divinely inspired, but it is indispuatble WRONG on many well established facts. The bible speaks of taking a person to a 'High place' from where all the kingdoms of the earth can be seen. there is no single point ANYWHERE from which all the human population of the earth can be seen, not even from the moon. In order to embrace religion you must reject reality, so quit trying to rationalize the bible, its wrong, you know its wrong, so just keep pretending.
MrHobiecat 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"The circle of the earth" probably referred to the appearance of the horizon.
And the HEBREW, not English, word for circle IS interchangeable (just like many other Hebrew words).
77Alacazam77 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"The circle of the earth" probably referred to the appearance of the horizon.
And the HEBREW, not English, word for circle IS interchangeable (just like many other Hebrew words).
77Alacazam77 1 year ago
"The circle of the earth" probably referred to the appearance of the horizon.
And the HEBREW, not English, word for circle IS interchangeable (just like many other Hebrew words).
77Alacazam77 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"The circle of the earth" probably referred to the appearance of the horizon.
And the HEBREW, not English, word for circle IS interchangeable (just like many other Hebrew words).
77Alacazam77 1 year ago
"The circle of the earth" probably referred to the appearance of the horizon.
And the HEBREW, not English, word for circle IS interchangeable (just like many other Hebrew words).
77Alacazam77 1 year ago
"The circle of the earth" probably referred to the appearance of the horizon.
And the HEBREW word (lie many other Hebrew words) IS interchangeable.
77Alacazam77 1 year ago
We take it for granted that we have meaning in these constructs in life, but we just never wonder why humans or life in general should have meaning empiricaly, a molecule to man meaning. Then were just talking cosmic debris wasting good oxygen, planetary parasite.
benthemiester 2 years ago
This is an argument of semantics, Come on, your much more intelligent to believe that this flat earth belief system was limited to Christians.Contemporary interpretations of the bible has nothing to do with the point I made, and I didnt quite get your response to my original question. The logic is flawed if the implication is that Christianity is holding back science. It is historically inaccurate. Many of our most fundamental principles of science were discovered by men of faith. This is silly
benthemiester 2 years ago
The flat earth was in now way limited to Christians (ancient Hebrews) The idea is almost universal because it is so obvious.
Many of our fundamental principals we're discovered by men with noses (but not all).
Please then consider my second video. (equally silly)
Danmill23 2 years ago
Ill check out your video but I'm still trying to figure out what your implying by pointing out different interpretations of the bible. If your point is that there was ignorance of a spherical world among western society of many who were christian then, so what. What point are u trying to make. Is it your belief that the atheist of that period were any less unsophisticated. Whats your point
benthemiester 2 years ago
On a lighter note, your production skills are a lot better than mine.
benthemiester 2 years ago
Thanks. Look the video is just an investigation into the use of the word "circle" in the bible. Some claim it means sphere.
I'm just trying to show how the believers of this world often let their beliefs get away from them and start to read into the bible instead of read from it.
I'm simply trying to show that circle means circle.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Have u ever thought about adding the question of how utterly irrelevant any of this dialogue or any human thought for that matter is in the sense of a purely materialist unguided universe. If human constructs evolved to produce notions of intelligence morality, good and bad etc then the universe doesn't give a fuck, Were just animated star dust and u and I are only participating in an exorcise in mental masturbation. Satisfaction of thought expression, nothing more nothing less.
benthemiester 2 years ago
Thank you for doing this video series, it is a pleasure to meet one, such as yourself, who can think and reason for themselves. I have never been comfortable with the dumbing down and the forcing upon the population belief that the earth is a globe.
Travers54 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
hmmm....now when I want to be circumspect :-) about commenting on a woman's breasts, I can just say she has nice khoogs.....
randyhelzerman 2 years ago
lol ... That kinda works doesn't it?
Danmill23 2 years ago
Ok I don't agree with any of that.
You can infinitely loop around a flat disc in the same way you loop around a sphere. (now we have to argue if god forgiveness can turn a 90 or 180 degree corner in a short space of time c}; ... a non-ending argument don't wish to get into.)
My point about the torus is that your argument works equally well for a torus shaped earth. and by extension almost any shape. You argument does not distinguish. It works just as well to prove a torus earth.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Ok Quad let me try again to show you why I feel the argument is weak.
Now the forever business is a highly debatable interpretation, but you seem to need this for the analogy to work. Now let's say I grant you this.
New problem 1) - A torus is a 3d geometric shape like a donut. Irrespective of how you orient east and west,, they both continue forever "never meeting" (as you claim). So your evidence is equally valid for the torus as the sphere. Cont ...
Danmill23 2 years ago
cont ...
Could the ancient Hebrews Have thought we lived on a torus?
But lets go one step further. Surely your "forever direction on surface" rule also support a cubic earth? If gods forgiveness can make a 360 degree turn on a sphere surely it can cope with a cube.
And finally why cannot gods forgiveness forever loop around a flat disc?
This is a big part of the problem, there is no firm evidence to lock onto here. The verse is not actually talking about shapes.
Danmill23 2 years ago
New problem 2) Much more serious problem. As you might know. And as you have posted above, our Hebrew cousins did not have a word for East or West. Ancient Hebrew is not an abstract language. It does not have concepts. The words WE translate as east and west are really descriptions of locations. "Where the sun comes up" and "where the sun sets" is what is actually meant as you your self quoted. Cont....
Danmill23 2 years ago
Now as I have said earlier the previous verse names a finite distance (but un-measured) namely from the earth to the heavens.
In psa 103:12 it also measures a finite but unmeasured distance. That is (ancient Hebrew remember) ... From the place the sun rises to the place the sun sets.
Both of these are GREAT distances. This great unmeasured size is used as an analogy for aspects of God.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Finally dude. My conclusion is again your argument is very weak.
I have demonstrated in many different way it is weak.
I have been doing most of the heavy lifting on this issue.
You claim and evidence has not changed or been added to since you first made it. The burden is on you.
I submitt to you that you have failed to meet this burden.
Don't be dogmatically married to this idea. I have proposed arguments before that have been shown to be weak and unlikely to be true.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Or is this idea critical to your belief system? Is this idea the glue that holds it ALL together?
I think not. It's just an idea that you thought had power but turns out to be not as powerful as it looked initially.
Dude I only say this stuff to help you let it go.
This my friend is how critical thinking works.
You need to consider it a victory if you are shown to be wrong.
Our discussion shows the following seems most likely-
Psa 103:12 is weak evidence for a biblical spherical earth.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Right Listen Quag you are starting to piss me off.
You accusation of my bias is unfounded. I called your argument weak (for reasons above) because it is weak NOT because I cannot refute it. I called your argument weak BECAUSE I AM NOT BIASED. A biased person would dismiss out of hand your argument. I can look at it objectively and see that it does have some merit, but not enough to be convincing. Thus I call it weak evidence for your case. Cont ...
Danmill23 2 years ago
I will not tolerate this type of baseless accusation again Quag. You don't know me. You don't know what I think. I know what I think Quag.
Next you Quag. You are the one who has to disable comments on your channel. You are the one who says he deletes disrespectful comments.
So Quag coming onto my channel and accusing me of plugging my ears etc is not going to continue.
Danmill23 2 years ago
I have nothing to add. So I'll make a summary.
I can see as you have described that infinity is needed as an apology to describe forever.
I do not see the need for imposing forever in the verse.
In fact this 'forever" business seems to have the sole function of supporting your argument.
"Forever" is not in the verse at all.
I do not see how the desire for an enormous distance analogy proves a spherical earth.
Danmill23 2 years ago
I do not see how the flat earth analogy cannot do the exact same job. ( be it finite or not)
BTW I do not think this verse proves a flat earth either.
In conclusion for these reasons I find the argument to be weak. It definitely cannot prove a shape of the earth and has little value as supporting evidence either.
My considered opinion.
Danmill23 2 years ago
apology = analogy ... above!
Stupid helpful spell check.
Danmill23 2 years ago
It is amazing to me that you can be so dogmatic and self delusional. It is (partly) this amazing spectacle that I wish to understand.
I have heard your explanations. Psa 103:12 is weak evidence for a biblical spherical earth. You can see your self you need thousands of words to explain it. I have studied this issue in detail and I have never heard anyone else use this argument. If you accept evidence this weak as proof ... no wonder your a "believer".
Danmill23 2 years ago
After a quick search I can find only one person making this claim.
David Pyles on his website Scientific Facts and Accuracy in the Bible. (I also noted the comforting additional title "Reasons to believe".)
Danmill23 2 years ago
This is part of someone else's rebuttal to Mr Pykes claim.
"The vast distance between the place where the sun rises and where it sets would most likely have provided more than enough separation for theological purposes. Be that as it may, considering the worldview of the ancient Hebrews, only someone engaged in desperation hermeneutics would attempt to construe this verse as being indicative of a spherical earth. " - Jack DeBaun
YT refuses web address. You'll need to google search for it.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Yes I agree that west is a direction. But "THE west" and "THE east" are places. Abstract places far apart. In fact opposite to each other. Horizontally opposite. Flatly opposite.
Side to side opposite. The east side and the west side.
Check Psa 103:11 It talks about extreme distances but this time vertically. Up and down. From Heaven to earth.
Quag you can believe what you feel is best.
But if you that fired up pls watch the other three in the series and ripp 'em apart!
Danmill23 2 years ago
"as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us." psa 103:12
I think the verse might be refering to places.
"as far as THE east is from THE west ... "
To me Quag this is simply trying to express a great distance. It is trying to express magnitude. Check Psa 103:11 it also is expressing the concept of a great distance between to locations.
It does not imply a spherical earth.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Quag ... I'm not being dogmatic and "obstructionary" I really (objectively) don't think Psa 103:12 makes any sort of good case for a spherical earth. The direction of E&W end up in the same place on a sphere. But on a flat plane they are clearly never going to meet and will always (if limited) be at extremes from each other. If anything I'm now starting to think it might be more of an evidence for a flat earth.
Either way we must remember the quote is not about geography.
Danmill23 2 years ago
I'm not sure what you mean about the curved horizon. Please watch my other videos in the series. (if you haven't)
I'd like to get your thoughts.
I talk about the circle a little more and discuss other bible verses.
Cheers
------------
BTW If your interested I have another 4 episodes in production. These will include the objections that people have raised. But the episodes won't be complete for a few weeks yet. I'll try and remember your Psa verse.
Danmill23 2 years ago
google the hebrew word translated "circle" , and search for where it used in the bible.
MatthewHudghton 2 years ago
Yeah way ahead of you there Matt. If you haven't, maybe watching the rest of the series will show you where I'm at.
Cheers
Danmill23 2 years ago
Not sure all that make that much sense.
First : circle
Second : Not very sound thinking ... for example you could say on a spherical earth east MEETS west. They actually get closer together. But a on flat earth east and west never meet. Good try but I'm not on accepting this one.
Third : the flat earth does have a circular horizon! Go out side ... the earth looks flat and the horizon make a circle around you and you are it's center. A flat circle.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Love the intro!!!
nadiaTeeze 2 years ago
Thanks Nad!
Danmill23 2 years ago
A true circle is theoretical, it does not exist mathmatically. Same with a sphere, curves are a series of small angles, and can never be perfectly formed. Just saying, its kinda interesting.
avzfan666 2 years ago
When is a spere not a circle? When is a cube not square? When is a pyramid not a triangle?
You cannot get, without designating the angles and distances first, a spere without a circle, a cube without a square, or a pyramid without a tirangle.
NephilimFree 2 years ago 2
"When is a spere [sic] not a circle?"
In reality.
hairyreasoner 2 years ago
"When is a cube not square?"
In understanding.
hairyreasoner 2 years ago
"When is a bat not a bird?"
Outside the bible.
hairyreasoner 2 years ago
One thing you've left out (and I don't know if you're planning on getting to it or not):
Isaiah 22:18: "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball* into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house."
*-Strong's 1754, "duwr," meaning "ball" or "circle." Unlike chuwg, duwr can mean a 3-dimensional ball or sphere. If Isaiah had meant for the Earth to be a sphere in 40:22, then why didn't he use "duwr" instead?
shanedk 2 years ago
Thanks Shane. I saw your recent video ... very good. Yes I will address "duwr".
I hope you enjoy the rest of the series. I'm taking a break right now, but I have more episodes in production.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Excellent! Can't wait!
And thanks for the kind words.
shanedk 2 years ago
You sounds like Jemaine from Flight of the Conchords.
plevyman 2 years ago
Great Video!
aiyic 2 years ago
did you pay attention to the rest of the verse.. the verse that describes the circle as viewed from a perspective? if this is your excuse for denying god, see how well it holds up in judgement. maybe by then you will finally have a valid proof of the big bang theory lol, youre going to believe what you like, good luck
displaced36 2 years ago
if youre going to take it literally then the word you are looking for is disc.. and some bibles do say sphere, now since you have spent too much time failing to debunk this.. try debunking job 26:7 for even more wasted time and failure
displaced36 2 years ago 5
Well Displaced perhaps you should watch the following episodes before you judge. I don't believe I've made any claims at all in this episode.
And yes job 26:7 will be looked at.
I make a strong and methodical case.
Danmill23 2 years ago
i'm sure you do. i will watch them in time, as long as you are willing to admit that the word circle does not always mean disc, and acknowledge that a few bibles do translate the circle as sphere, one calls it an arch, but none say disc. want to know why? rent an old kung fu flick, put on subtitles and play the english overdub.. see how easy things get lost in translation between only 2 languages.
displaced36 2 years ago
I'll happily admit that circle does not mean disc. It means ... "Circle". I'll show that in the following videos.
If you have the time pls watch the other episodes, you thoughts would be interesting to hear.
Danmill23 2 years ago
@displaced36 job 26:7 says that the earth is floating free, wow, must be divine!!!!!!! Man, sorry, but you will never realise how rediculous your arguments are
SuperFeimer 1 year ago
The old "you'll see after you die" argument. Moronic in the extreme.
plevyman 2 years ago
the old "i am not able to believe, and i still judge faith, even tho i have none to even understand what it truely is, and i probably wont know until its too late when i finally die, because i am way too proud to admit that my limited imagination can not phathom infinity, becausescience says it is impossible, yet supports the big bang theory that means something came from nothing which is also impossible by science, yet, it is actually possible by creation of a supernatural being" arguement.
:)
displaced36 2 years ago 2
Hey Displaced,
Just a quick addition. despite what you may have heard, (as I understand it) the big bang is not a something from nothing issue. It's a complicated issue and there are many "red herrings". As you may know e=mc^2. This means matter can become and is the same as energy. This is how the entire universe can be packet into a impossibly small space. Basically it is so hot that matter cannot exist ... just energy. I can direct you to some reliable explinations if you wish.
Danmill23 2 years ago
sure, direct me to them if they can explain what it was that created the things that created those conditions :)
displaced36 2 years ago
There are some good ones about by the actual scientists that used and come up with this stuff. This is an example ...
/watch?v=SvoV5WxNrgE&feature=channel_page
First warning It's an hour long.
Second warning it's not gonna answer tell you what it was that created the conditions that created the big bango! sorry );
Danmill23 2 years ago
ill check it out anyways i suppose, maybe not right away tho. take care
displaced36 2 years ago
Good video and really cool intro animation!
reeves369 2 years ago
I fully agree ... Thanks
Danmill23 2 years ago
Round implies curvature, which is explicitly two dimensional. It doesn't imply three-dimensionality of the sphere at all. Sphere is round, but that doesn't mean that round is spherical.
JaMoond 2 years ago
Exactly!
Danmill23 2 years ago
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
I'm a Christian and I know Biblical Hebrew, you are so wrong!
Hallelujah!
98nfsmw98 2 years ago 4
You claim to be 13 yrs old???
I bow to the Hebrew master.
Danmill23 2 years ago
I'm not claiming, I'm stating fact. And besides, Martin Luther could speak fluent ancient Greek at the age of 12. And to speak ancient Greek, fluently, is very, very hard.
98nfsmw98 2 years ago
Wait, who told you I was 13? I didn't say it in my comment. Oh, my profile.
98nfsmw98 2 years ago
I am not an adherent of Biblical inerrancy but this does not invalidate the collection of books within the Bible. As of yet I am just convinced of the resurrection Yehsua among other things of course but my belief hinges upon this historical event. I will not argue it here and I would discourage generalized responses as there is not enough space here to truly discuss this. Anyways, great vid Dan! Although... why use the KJV?
OblivionMon 2 years ago
Hey ObMon.
Good to hear from you. Also good to hear about you not adhering to biblical in errancy.
I will not attempt to address the resurrection. I'm only really trying to show that the bible is not a "science" book.
As for the KJV. Most of the fundamentalists in the world appear to revere the KJV as "gods word in english". Some (Mackquigley) believe it to be superior to the Hebrew texts. (???)
So I need to address issues from that point of view.
Ep 4 is up pls tell me your thoughts.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Fundamentalists are an odd bunch. It seems strange that people would use the KJV instead of a more modern translation which employs older manuscripts. I am still trying to learn Hebrew so maybe one day I shall read it in the original and certainly more superior (in this regard) language. As for your upcoming videos, will you address those who say Genesis is not meant to be taken literally but allegorically as some very early Christians thought? Either way I always enjoy your vids! :-)
OblivionMon 2 years ago
Thanks Ob.
I imagine I'll leave it up to the viewer on how to understand genesis. My main goal is to show how the Hebrew cosmology is different from our own. However I also find is quite beautiful, even logical and in some ways respectable but not what we know today. I have most of this series planned and my last episode will show why I think this.
Reading ancient languages is cool.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Comment removed
iamericwhite 2 years ago
To come to a conclusion that the Hebrew word חוג (hhug, btw, the "hh" is pronounced hard, like the "ch" in the name Bach) means a sphere is pure speculation and an attempt to make the text fit with reality. This Hebrew word is only used three times in the Bible and it, nor any other ancient literature properly defines this word more than just a "circle."
ancienthebreworg 2 years ago
Thanks dude for the comment. Yes I agree with you and I'm addressing your point in ep 3 more. Thanks
Danmill23 2 years ago
Great series Danmill, I especially like your approach... Let's check the opinions of others, the texts and the facts and then come to some conclusions.
ancienthebreworg 2 years ago
Is this the theme song to that Nicolodean show about the girl named Alex who gets radioactive waste spilled on her and becomes a super-hero?
Qusha10 2 years ago
No, it's Beetlejuice.
no1isrighteous 2 years ago
Sweet, knew it was something like that
Qusha10 2 years ago
I think Isaiah 40:22 was intended to describe God's perspective of Earth: the Earth was so small to God's eyes that it appeared as if a Circle to him.
no1isrighteous 2 years ago 2
Sorry it's taken me a while to address your comment.
I understand your point and I will be making a video to adress it. Thanks
Danmill23 2 years ago
That would be fine but you are forgetting the second part of the verse. It says that the heavens were a tent. In other parts of the bible they are referred to as a dome. This totally kills the idea that he was talking about a view of the Earth because the heavens would NOT look like a dome in space. Also it is pretty telling that the writers referred to the heavens as a dome. We've all seen the superbowl and we know what a dome looks like.
cidvisions 2 years ago
THAT is a really great bit of thinking Cid. Great point.
*nodding*
Thanks.
Danmill23 2 years ago
The heavens would look like a dome to God.
What are the heavens?
a) The atmosphere - enveloping the earth "like a tent (canopy)" ; or
b) The boundaries of the universe (itself spherical).
Most likely (b), since the atmosphere, too, would appear as a circle to God.
The heavens are sphere-like. A sphere can be thought of as 2 conjoined domes. The 'dome' that demands God's visual focus (and perspective) is the upper dome...He looks down at His creation, not up.
no1isrighteous 2 years ago
What are the heavens? Good question! Is what you "THINK" the most like answer to be, the best way to decide what the real answer is?
Do you believe god looks down on his creation? Which way is down?
Please continue the series and we'll work it out together. Thanks for your thoughts!
Danmill23 2 years ago
What we THINK is where the question for truth begins. I wish I KNEW, but I don't.
Whichever way is up, God's viewpoint is of the 'top' dome - which visually takes from the one 'below' it.
Thank you for your reply. :)
no1isrighteous 2 years ago
One interesting though for you. If god is everywhere at once, then he also sees the "heavens" from inside the earth .... what shape does he see then?
Cheers.
Danmill23 2 years ago
A dome from the eye level up...?
no1isrighteous 2 years ago
Either way, God sees the heavens in a covering-up fashion, a la dome, double-dome (sphere), canopy, tent, etc.
no1isrighteous 2 years ago
I encourage you to watch my following videos.
There is no mention of a double dome. No sphere either. Remember a tent sits on a flat surface.
If you could find some ... say scriptural passages about a double dome or the heavens being a sphere then you'd have something, but (as I show in my following videos) there is not reason to believe this, except from a modern perspective.
I back up everything that I say in my videos ... pls watch them.
You views are important to me.
Danmill23 2 years ago
I wish the writers of Isaiah 40:22 had consulted with a certain Editor-in-Chief before finalizing their choice of words. And maybe I should have thought about my insights before posting them. :P
I'll check your other videos.
Peace.
no1isrighteous 2 years ago
Your attempt at rationalizing your flawed holy book is quite entertaining. I think Danmill has pretty much proved my point with the idea that,
"Remember a tent sits on a flat surface."
If your god is such an expert when it comes to circles and the bible is without flaw, why did it get the number for Pi wrong? The bible says that Pi is equal to 3. Every high school student that has had geometry knows that Pi is 3.14.... Does god need some tutoring in math along with better depth perception?
cidvisions 2 years ago
Glad to have entertained you.
Very good, you did the math in 1 Kings 7:23,26. Impressive.
Problems with the Pi=3 theory:
1) The DIAMETER was from RIM-TO-RIM of the molten sea (10 cubits).
2) The CIRCUMFERENCE was not described as rim-to-rim.
3) Thickness was brought up. Why? Hiram needed an outer mold to make the sea? 1 handbreath = 0.222 cubits
4) Hence, the 30 cubit circumference describes an INNER circumference (not the outer one).
5) Thus: 30/(2*4.778) ~= 3.14.
no1isrighteous 2 years ago
Notes:
diameter = 2*radius
circumference = C = 2*pi*radius
outer diameter = 10 = 2*5
outer radius = 5
1 handbreath = 0.222 cubits
inner radius = 5 - 0.222 = 4.778
inner circumference = 30 = 2*pi*4.778
pi according to Bible = 30/(2*4.778) = 3.139 ~= 3.14
no1isrighteous 2 years ago
First of all a hanbreadth is 1/6 of a cubit. 4 fingers to a handbreadth, 3 handbreadths to a span, and 2 spans to a cubit.
1/6 = .16666 not .222.
For a handbreadth to be .222 cubits 1 cubit would be 4.5 handbreadths. This is obviously not the case.
When we do your calculation with the proper handbreadth measurement we get
30/(2*(5-.166))
=3.10344
Sorry your god still has math issues. Unless of course Solomon had some really humongous hands. That guy could have worked in the circus!
cidvisions 2 years ago
The passage should have said "one handbreath and a third". The Bible must not have liked to use decimal numbers, esp. in this case, since only integers were comprehensible by the illiterate masses.
no1isrighteous 2 years ago
"The passage should have said..."?
No1 This statement of yours worries me. I need clarification. By saying this do you mean ...
The bible IS accurate, but it's written inaccurately to make it easier on some people.
or another way to put it ...
The bible is REALLY right when it's ACTUALLY wrong.
Is that what you're saying. I'm confused and worried No1. Pls help.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Comment removed
no1isrighteous 2 years ago
(I don't speak ancient Hebrew, but I have a background in linguistics: I'm both an interpreter and translator.) You have to look at the original word, not the English, to see if in fact the original encompasses the meaning of what in English you call round. It's pointless to focus on the word "circle." Doing so, you're really finding fault with St. Jerome, not the author. Only a Hebraist can answer this question, not some graduate of Liberty Univ. who's still has hayseeds in his hair.
keytoothed 2 years ago
Thanks Keytoothed.
I agree. You might like to follow along the series as your advice would be valuable.
This first ep I'm just gathering opinions, the second I consult the bible and in the third we'll look at the Hebrew.
Only after all that will I draw some conclusions.
Thanks.
Danmill23 2 years ago
WB! Great intro!
SSanf 2 years ago
Thanks for the comment on my intro SSanf.
Danmill23 2 years ago
I think that it is fairly obvious that circle of the earth was referring to a flat disk. I come to this conclusion when considering the next part of scripture... "stretched out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a TENT TO DWELL IN"
To me the entire passage is describing a flat disk with a dome above it. This would also be backed up with the knowledge that The ancient Babylon, Egyptian, pre-classical Greek, Indian and Chinese cultures all believed the earth was flat.
ransomdave 2 years ago
Thanks Randsom, I hope to add all that to the mix. Cheers.
Danmill23 2 years ago
just a little constructive critizism: You are waaaayyy to slow. Seriously. Speed up a little. everything you say in this clip could be said in less then 20 seconds.
13otany13ay 2 years ago
Yeah I agree Cheers.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Very true, and anyone who thinks that Christianity hinges upon a flat earth or spherical earth is insane.
iAstrophysics 2 years ago
Very interesting discussion guys.
Danmill23 2 years ago
I think the idea is that some people think that the bible is word-for-word what God wanted in it... and if that were true, why include disinformation?
Good video + animation!
bhig3 2 years ago
Exactly, I'm assuming that they just used information relevant to them at the time, and thus it was wrong. But of course when you use enough poetic language, you can basically interpret it to be anything.
iAstrophysics 2 years ago
Exactly. Although, I think some interpretation is just silly, *Cough* Jason Lisle *Cough*. :)
iAstrophysics 2 years ago
Yes, but that's just it, due to the time they were living in, they probably seen the heavens as dome shaped and the earth as flat, I think the context of which Isaiah 40:22 is written still stands as a testament to their limited knowledge. Although, I find it trivial to argue this, because no matter how you interpret it, whether flat or spherical, it still doesn't prove the Bible to be true. I just find it more likely that they meant it to be a circle.
iAstrophysics 2 years ago
I think it's fair to assume that they meant a flat earth, considering the second sentence in that particular verse.
iAstrophysics 2 years ago
Why do fundys insist that IS40:22 refers to a sphere while ignoring the second part o the verse. Sky spread like a tent? On a sphere?
Brianswers 2 years ago
Yeah exactly. The above a sphere is problematic as well.
Cheers
Danmill23 2 years ago
Nice video.
I believe the earth is a short cylinder. if you look at it from one side it will appear to be a circle. if you look at it turned 90' it will appear to be a square.
few know the truth.
unkie888 2 years ago
Thanks Unkie. Stay tuned, more to make you happy soon.
Danmill23 2 years ago
It is very convenient for ignorant atheists to claim that the circle in the bible means the earth is flat, even though the verse is found in one of the most POETIC books of the bible, and it says "God sat on it" (poetry!), even though people during those days thought that the earth was SQUARE and flat, and, most importantly, even though there was no word for sphere in those days. What the Jews believed does not matter. The bible itself makes us know that the wise did not understand its secrets.
okebaram 2 years ago
"It is very convenient for ignorant atheists..."
Dude. I have not even begun to claim. I'm just showing you evidence.
I'll tell you what's convenient whipping out bible quotes about the wise who do not understand the believers hidden it's secrets.
Flat/spherical earth is not a secret.
If I am wise (as you accuse), what does that make you?
A believer.
I think you should watch this series, because I will not claim anything I cannot back up!
Peace.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Sorry, I have better things to do than to do with my time than to watch this series. Maybe I would care if I didn't have a personal relationship with God. My point about the wise is that the Jews never understood the bible well, no one did. The Jews crucified Christ and replaced a lot of truth/principles with tradition. That's all.
okebaram 2 years ago
lol the jews WROTE the bible.
Danmill23 2 years ago
Well Dan, I see you have given three posters "Top of the class" appointment by virtue of your ability to have words mean more than one thing.
I also see Mack has come out with a video response to this which is two parts.
I am positive you are already changing your next episode. You know why Dan? Because every time you say something wrong about the bible Mack takes the time to correct you. Rather than you admitting you are wrong, you change the subject.
That's how I know,Dan
You are simply wrong
AnotherBrotherMark 2 years ago
I have yet to watch Macks video. All I have done is collect believers opinions. So I don't think I've made any claims as yet.
You might not be familiar ABM, but this is part of the collect evidence process. Conclusions and claims come at the end.
Do you believe that circle of the earth means circle of the earth? Or something else.
Mach says in his comment that circle means circle.
?????
Danmill23 2 years ago
Mack goes to great lengths to explain that circle means circle in his video you have not watched yet.
He also has a disclaimer that you may not as well watch because you will not understand that a circle is indeed a circle.
To be forthright with you, although I am probably talking over your head, I believe that the circle of the earth means the circle of the earth.
God sits upon it, but then again, I believe in God.
AnotherBrotherMark 2 years ago
Ok I watched the video. Now do you believe the cosmology that Mack explains?
Are you 100% with him?
Danmill23 2 years ago
wow, yes dude, i watched it. -> it seems the entire universe is a giant tear drop eminating out of god.
so god just sits there - what does he do all day, sitting on the circle of the earth?
are there others sitting there too? is there a bar? the bar on the circle of the earth.
i like it.
unkie888 2 years ago
Sorry, that video is just... nope. I mean, it is interesting, but it is an imaginative, illusive fabrication based on Mark's own fantastic understanding and not scriptural or scientific truth.
okebaram 2 years ago
He's a BIG Christian Oke. You think he's "imagining" things, he thinks you are.
???? Someone is wrong?
Danmill23 2 years ago
Hey this was great! Favored! Nice job love the use of other videos as a collection of views. I did a video on the topic last year and thought I would post it here. I possibly should have sent it privately because you maybe covering such topics later. However it may be able to give you some other leads you may find interesting. I did not intend to post this to steal any kind of thunder but thought it relevant to the topic . This video was just laying around so I thought to reuse it here.
wayman29 2 years ago
No-no, add it to the pile. Most welcome.
Thanks Wayman.
Danmill23 2 years ago