@GlobalAwareness2525 Ive been following this because comments are coming through my email. I know what your referring to because when I check his channel he seems to be on a very specific mission to rid the internet of the GM story. Right now I am not sure, it seems he is incapable of absorbing the information provided him & he does seem to ignore point blank questions or comments, it could be an act. Unblock your email so I can talk directly to you.
Mabey I misinterpreted your repy about your 65' Ltd, and so on. EV's are being built and raced BY individuals, there are whole divisions and classes devoted to them. Sponsored EV's have been ALL-OVER Pikes Peak, for YEARS. While we have seen significant reductions in the cost of batteries in recent years. At this point, we’re are still paying about $500 per kw. Even in LARGE quantities.
Why do you find it so unreasonable to think that no person could build a car themselves? I've been building racing cars for years, against others who do the same. Hell, college kids in engineering school build cars. Additionally why do you think that just because you've chaged a few plugs and torn open an old FE series Ford V8, that this qualifies you as an engineer.
Well, I hope your right that there are people who are willing to pay a premium for electric vehicles, because that is what it's going to take to convince automakers to build them. I for one think your right, as I am. Tesla Motors is also staking their future on this idea as well. But, I think Nissan is planning on losing money on the Leaf to get their foot in the door.
The maker of the Tesla is a brave man & he doesn't have the power like GM. Nobody manufactured Lithium Ion batteries ready made to insert into a car therefore he had to solder together laptop batteries. Once such batteries are mass produced along with all the other technology then it will all drop drastically in price. There is a future for EV's but there are industries who still have lots of oil to sell & they want to sell every last drop before moving into the next technology
While these vehicles are unecessary, ostentatious and replusive, they do not require much R & D or tooling and thus are CHEAP to produce. I estimate each costs between $5-9k each, including tooling and advertising. Sadly, because American car buyers have little sense, these vehicles are
perceived as status symbols and thusly have high sticker prices.
Ok, well that sort of makes my point. A tremendous amount of time & money goes into the initial vehicle design as was the EV-1. So after those initial costs I just don't believe that each EV-1 cost $125,000 to build, nor $80,000 but more like in 1980 in mass production perhaps $900 per EV.
When you buy product in mass such as batteries, electric motors etc etc then you get those at incredibly reduced prices & it makes the end product more affordable to the general public.
I don't know exactly what GM spent to gear up for the Hummer, but I do know that the entire hummer line was based largely on ancient platforms. The H1's initial investment was paid for ENTIRELY by the U.S. Military. It was after all, a military vehicle. Putting shiney paint on it and selling for 125K was nothing but profit for GM. The H2, is a reskinned Tahoe, and the H3 is a reskinned GMC Envoy with a Jeep transfer case.
Enough People were stupid enough and rich enough to buy the Hummer, trust me, there were plenty more EV enthusiasts that would have spent that for the EV-1 & I still maintain the cost of the project would have been paid back 10,000 fold if GM opened up EV-1 sales (not lease only) to all of the U.S. & the world.
I also feel it is worth mentioning that while my brain is capable of retaining and applying knowlege presented to me during my youth, it is also quite capable of discerning a thinly veiled insult. Don't think that simply because I have the ability to handle basic math, that I have been "programmed" or am lacking in creative faculties. If you believe electric vehicle technology is so accessible, that a cover-up was necessary to surpress it, then pick up a wrench and build a car.
Riiiight. "Pick up a wrench and build a car". Ive had a wrench in my hand since I was 10yrs old, rebuilt my first engine at 15. A 1965 Ford LTD with a 390 to be specific, and you are right. You do have creative faculties. You are very good at side stepping questions. You are typical. Usually around 18 most people think they have learned all there is to know then lock down the brain as to not disturb the foundation of all they have "learned".
Again, spurious logic at best. Because the Leaf and Volt utilize more advance technologies they therfore MUST cost more to produce? Your objection negates years of advancement in R & D and manufacturing. Imagine how ridiculous your logic becomes if applied to the computer industry.
The point is that GM used the excuse that the $80,000 car ($125,000 by your calcs) was not profitable. You just agreed they now "cost more to produce", how much more? $200,000? $300,000?
So why are they not scrapping the Volt or the Leaf etc?
We need to step back a bit. I am just throwing random figures out into the air but to clarify you said the EV-1 cost $125,000 per unit. You agreed that today's EV technology "MUST cost more to produce" yet backing up further you think the Leaf's actual cost should be $60,000. Your statements do not line up. Per your latest statement the leaf should cost more than the $125,000 EV-1.
Something is a miss & I would like to get to the bottom of it.
Okay "H". I kinda feel like Ii already addressed that 10-days ago. The volume of potential customers is irrelevant if product is unprofitable. The EVI project cost $1,000,000,000.00 / 800 cars = $125,000.00 per car. If leased at $640.00 per month maximum x 36 months = $23,000.00 per unit x $800 = $18,432,000 max total revinue generated. This represented a LOSS of $102,000.00 per vehicle provided it leased at the maximum rate and required no sevice during it's 3 years.
Those figures are deceptive.How much did it cost GM to gear up for the Hummer?Very easily a billion $, no doubt, but once in place then geared up for mass production then the profits roll in yet the Hummer was not lease only in only 3 cities, can't you see the self limitation of the EV-1 project?
It was set up to fail. Naturally GM eats the initial investment but you make that back & more if you drop the sale price & sell mass quantities.GM did not follow standard sales protocol
C-comment, I don't answer questions based on nonsensical speculation about what could have been, but energy density is the reason, Energy density is the amount of energy stored per unit volume or mass. Gasoline has an energy density of about 45 megajoules per kilogram (MJ/kg). The best rating I've EVER seen for ANY battery was a lithium ion nanowire cell made by spectrolab for a satallite, it was rated at 2.54 (MJ/kg). Simple as that really.
But it dosen't, why you might ask. Well, because Nissan’s efforts to build the Leaf's battery packs have been heavily subsidized by several governments. Nissan has received $1.6 billion from the US Department of Energy alone for battery production. I know great britian also kicked in a cool $300 million.
Ok, Let's not over complicate this. Real simple. All subsidies aside It is said that the EV-1 cost $80,000 to build. You suspect the leaf costs $60,000 to build. Let's not compare kilowatt to kilowatt or performance vs performance but real simple. without any subsidies How much was an EV-1 battery pack vs Volt (or leaf) battery pack? how much was each component of the EV-1 vs each component of the volt (or Leaf)?
FreeEnergy makes good points. We are not comparing technology but cost to build. Actual cost to build the EV-1 vs actual cost to build the Volt without the subsidies. Volt technology should be far more expensive than EV-1 technology & it was already established that the Volt batteries are 3-4 times more expensive. Production costs today are far more than in 1980. If EV-1 cost $80,000 in 1980 then Volt must cost $300,000 to build today.
@GlobalAwarenress, lets talk batteries and economics, using Nissan's new Leaf as an example. Right now, lithium ion batteries for cars cost around $900 per kilowatt hour. The Leaf has a 24 kilowatt hour Li-ion battery. Under that math, a Leaf battery--if it were priced like a regular battery--should cost around $21,000. If the battery is roughly a third of the price of the car; the Leaf, should cost closer to $60,000.
@Globalawareness, you sound alot like that other freeenergy guy... I do not work for any oil company, GM or any other automaker. But I do work for the government, and I am an engineer. If you decide that makes me part of some machine whose sole purpose is to convice you of falsehoods. Then I give up. But, if you want to know things like the energy density of sunlight. The energy storage density of various types of batteries. Then I'm happy to help. Often if you ask questions like these,
That's good to know that your brain can be programmed to contain information entered by it's programmers since childhood, through your teen yrs & into adulthood which means your memory is in good operational condition but do you have the capability of actually thinking on your own outside of your program? For instance answering the logical question mentioned in the C comment field?
FreeEnergy also brings up a valid point. What did each component really cost in the EV-1 in 1980 when batteries used were far less expensive then Volt batteries & cost of living factors from 1980 to present are very valid factors. It would seem that production prices of EV-1 were way over exaggerated to get out from under the law requiring GM to manufacture a zero emissions vehicle.
@TuGuyBear, public acceptance IS the key. This was the central point that I was trying to make with globalfreenergy. The type of speculation exemplified by his writing does FAR MORE harm tha good. Vehicles with an electric drivetrain AND an onboard internal combustion engine for back up on long trips IS our immediate future! Nobody seems get that. The limited range, and long recharge times, are an obstical that WILL prevent U.S. car buyers from buying a pure electric. GM's Volt provid
Public acceptance? How about teasing the population with a remarkable automobile, only allowing a lease only & even at that nowhere near filled the demand. An entire infrastructure was being built to accommodate. Most people drive far less than 30Mi to work, solar chargers were being put in place for EV commuters at work. MOST people do not commute further than the limitations of EV-1
Pointing out all the faults of the EV-1 is exactly the same as pointing out all the faults of the early 1900s automobile. You have to hand crank the engine, engines were temperamental, noisy and smoked a lot. Engine rebuilds at 5,000 Mi because they had no oil filters. What a piece of shit, It's far better to just stick with the horse... as you might have said in those times.
If major funding continued with the EV without resistance then battery technology would have advanced far beyond your imagination.Single batteries that could power an EV for months with no charge or travel 3000 mi on one charge. Far more powerful & efficient electric motors. The resistance has set EVs back by 100yrs. I think you do more harm than good & I wonder if you are paid by the oil companies to side track people from what goes on behind closed government/corporate doors
There must be a way for cities & federal government to collect taxes for roads & infrastructure. They can't presently do that if your fuel comes from the sun. Let me give you an example. In California, it's illegal to collect vegetable oil from a restaurant for fuel without paying a $300 license upfront as well as hefty road use taxes per gallon, people running home-brewed fuel owe road maintenance taxes which are built into the price of gasoline or diesel at the pump.
GM was not the over-see'r of this project. All this goes far above GM. If people would only plug into the wall then this still feeds the coal & uranium industry, it can still be taxed per kilowatt but those pesky people are just too clever. They began using solar to charge their cars bypassing the energy industry & the tax infrastructure. People were bad, very bad. The people could not play by the rules to line the pockets of industry & government so the elite pulled the plug
But the elite are preparing for such future. Recently a politician tried to pass a bill through congress, a wind tax. Yes, now that so many wind farms are popping up it is cutting into the building of more power plants. Soon there will be a Sun tax or the enforcement of meters placed on wind mills & solar panels & you will be taxed for kilowatts used. The tax laws must be passed prior to us being allowed further major EV technology
Everybody who leased the EV1&2 loved the cars, many more people wanted them so when you say they were not popular enough is pure falsehood. That's like me asking 5000 children if they want a gum ball but I only have 10 gumballs & anybody else interested can put their name on the list. 4500 of them put their name on the list but I never provide anymore gumballs than the original 10, so does that mean gumballs were not popular among the children?
Furthermore. The EV1 was made available only to residents of Los Angeles, Phoenix & Tucson. Since you refer to figures why don't you take the actual waiting list numbers of those 3 cities then duplicate those with all comparable cities per populous then you tell me just how popular that car would have been under a lease only situation. I am just really surprised that you fail to see these obvious details specifically designed to sucker the masses, meaning you.
Back to the batteries... You asked: "Why Li-ion and not the cheaper NIMH or lead acid?". Weight. Li-ion's have an energy density of up to 300 watt-hours per kilogram. While NiMH has 240 watt-hours per kilogran and Lead Acid has about 100 per kilogram And yes I think the prices of Li-ion batteries have come down on that much I
You continually fail to see my point. Firstly a recent article about the Tesla says that Li bats are 4-5 X more expensive TODAY then NIMH. My point has nothing to do with weight or battery life etc but strictly with How Much Did It Really Cost To Manufacture The EV-2?
That is a very simple question which you continually choose to ignore & I am not too sure where to begin to locate 1980s prices for the bats or various components used in the EV-2 yet I suspect that you might.
If you are referring to me then you are quoting me as saying things I never said.
I never asked: "Why Li-ion and not the cheaper NIMH or lead acid?"
I suspect you are quickly scanning my words then deriving at what you think I said. Please take time to actually absorb my comments or questions before replying.
You need not worry about me being unable to accept it if I was proven wrong, if fact I would welcome it. Because, I would rather be happy then right. That said however, I've spend enough time designing machines, and yes even cars, to know what is and isn't possible. My mind isn't "blocked". I am not afraid. and it precisely BECAUSE, I know the truth, that I am unafraid It's not a zionist agenda, freemasons, oil companies, or GM. Right here, right now, the problem is public acceptance i
@SomeHumanBeing Because the public know nothing about electric cars except what they are told by those that don't want electric cars in the market place.
I am trying to point out a couple of things but you keep putting up mental blocks because you have or had a specific path or goal and that is to prove a corporate monopoly is non existent. It's ok to learn the truth no matter what it may be and it's ok with me if I am wrong but the question is: Is it ok with you if you are wrong? So far I think not. Can we please continue with calculating the facts & figures?...
$15,000 are in the batteries alone for the $41,000 Volt. The point I am trying to make & I am just not making clear enough is that I think the reported EV-1 & 2 production costs are a lie. I tried to show you the EV-1 used cheaper batteries so the EV-1 should cost less than the Volt yet you make the claim the other parts of the Volt are cheaper. Really? perhaps, but add inflationary costs & are those parts today cheaper than in 1980?
It's a simple question. Break down the cost of every part of the EV-1 or 2 in 1980 prices.
Then break down the cost of every part of the Volt in 2010 prices.
Already we have established that the L-ion batteries are not less expensive than EV-2 bats but are 4 to 5 Xs more expensive in 2010 prices but what is the comparison of 2010 L-ion bats to 1980s nickel-metal-hydride bats in cost?
based on this alone the Volt should be 5 to 10x or more than the EV-2 in production costs
In a sunny location, sunlight has a power density of about 1 kW/m^2. Current photovoltaic solar cells can convert this power into electricity with 14% efficiency, even if advances in technology made them 100% efficient, a 50hp car would require 20M^2. No pure solar car, no starlight car not now, not ever. Sorry.
You are referring to old solar technology. The technology that exists for the general public. I am referring to solar technology in the lab. Be very careful thinking that technology or invention has reached it's peak, it never does. Advanced solar now additionally recognizes ultraviolet light, it works on cloudy days, after sunset & before sunrise. The once larger panel has been reduced to fit in the palm of your hand yet produce more output.
In the 90s scientists were working on pulsating or vibrating solar panels. I can't explain it very well but on a very small scale as light hit these nano motors they vibrate creating electrical current. When I was exploring Nuclear technology I discovered that at some point research is kept quiet sometimes for decades until patents etc are in place before announced to the public.
The battery pack in the Tesla Roadster is the result of innovative systems engineering and 20 years of advances in Lithium-ion battery technology. The ingenious pack architecture enables world-class acceleration, safety, range, and reliability. Do your homework!!
First, in the 1980's the EV1 was just a twinkle in an ambitious engineer's eye. So, your guessing about inflation conspiracies is pure speculative nonsense. I do not find it hard to believe that the EV1 was that expensive and that the Volt's component costs have come down by that much in the nearly 20 years of innovation since the EV1 died. It's called progress, and it's a good thing. Don't be afraid.
I got this from an article about the Tesla Roadster.
" Li-ion batteries are around four to five times more expensive than nickel-metal-hydride ones [source: Popely]. Since the car-capable packs can cost between $10,000 and $15,000 each, finding a cheaper alternative will be a major hurdle for car companies "
...and that's my point. The Li batteries are far more expensive not less expensive as you mention.
This is also my points against the hybrid cars that claim 40mpg, 80mpg or the new super powered "Revenge" hybrid that claims 110mpg with a 400hp v8 engine. This is incredibly deceptive because if the engine ran full time it would likely never come anywhere near 110mpg. It's all in the EV battery pack, then see how much money you saved when you have to buy a new battery pack for $10,000 - $15,000
I am being very negative towards today's hybrids yet I do see a future where further improvements are made in battery technology. More powerful and less expensive is the way technology has always gone but if you saw advanced solar in the lab then it might become clear that most hybrid cars won't require the engine anymore as solar will eventually be so sensitive & powerful it will run off of star light. Batteries will be much smaller & hold a longer charge.
If you looked up the true meaning of conspiracy then you quickly realize that since ancient time there is always a conspiracy to dominate & control both people and industry. The courts imprison people daily for conspiracy to defraud, conspiracy to murder & a never ending trail of varied conspiracies but in business & government it is so common we think of it not as conspiracy but simply the normal function of business & politics yet they are still conspiracies none the less.
I would like to take you back to a time when the horse industry ruled. The invention of the automobile was a threat to this industry. The horse industry was not as scrupulous as the oil industry would become but they tried to fight off this new technology by placing ridiculous legal requirements on the books for automobile owners but the Love affair with the automobile was too powerful & could not be stopped.
The oil industry had their reign of power over industry & government but the newer technologies are slowly creeping in, they can't stop the conversion from oil to other technologies forever. What we see evolving today should have occurred in the 60s but old industries fight to stay in power as long as possible retarding the natural growth of things that could be.
If you owned an oil field wouldn't you want to sell every last drop?
For your similar gasoline economy car to hybrid comparision, I'll use the 2011 Chevrolet Cruze 4-door, which is powered soley by a turbocharged and direct injection version of the SAMEOpel/Vauxhall 4 cylinder engine. With a 5-speed manual, it achieves an EPA estimated 28 city and 42 highway. Are we done here?
Incentives I was referring to would be under the table payoffs, not something advertised on sticker label.
Seriously. In 1980s the EV-1 cost what it did & with inflation what it is, the Volt running more expensive batteries, costs far less? That one detail does not compute. Cost of Labor is higher, materials & metals are higher, taxes are higher. The cost figures for the EV-1 must have been grossly exaggerated (a lie) or government is paying GM to lower the ticket price on Volt.
The Volt, when not powered by grid electricity, an on-board generator. That means the Volt can go 500 miles without stopping. When did the EV1 ever go 500 miles without multiple 6 hour long charges? That's right, never. Inevitably, the battery requirements and technology of the Volt and the EV1 are vastly different, but GM will offer a 10 year warranty on the Volts battery pack, which is longer then the EV1 ever lived.
Before you go off again tax deductions, or subsidies. The Volt is currently eligible for a $7,500 federal tax credit, and in California it qualifies for an additional $5000 rebate. The Volt will also be available through a lease program with a monthly payment of $350. And before you go on again about the "smoke and mirrors" of the Volts hybrid drive system, please keep in mind the for 75% of commuters, the Volt will be running on electricity only and recharged via the grid, just like the EV1.
The Volts holds a whopping 9 gals of fuel and gasoline weighs 6.15lbs/gal so the Volt has a 400lb Li-ion battery, a 180lb engine and 53.35lbs of fuel for when full for a total of 635.35lbs. The EV1's lead acid battery weighed 1275 lbs (and had a 50 mile range) BUT, this battery was quickly replaced with a second generation nickle metal hydride battery which weighed 1100lbs. EV1's battery weighs nearly twice the Volts whole powertrain. Truly awful.
The Volt is only propelled by the electric motor, the internal combustion engine may engage (via a clutch) to ASSIST the ELECTRIC motor The I.C. engine comes from Opel/Vauxhall's ecotec twinport family, its a 1.4 L DOHC 4cyl (2.89in bore x 3.2in stroke and 10.5:1 CR) with 90 hp at 5600 rpm & 92 lbft 4000 rpm, this aweful gasoline or E85 sucking beast weighs a mighty 180lbs.
Yeah, those dirty corrupt bastards at GM, how dare they try to sell me a bigger, faster, cleaner, safer and more affordable car that I can drive everyday (on most days) without gasoline, recharge anywhere, and still take on road trips with my family. Just who the hell do they think they are!
I assume you are referring to the volt. You seem really good with math so sit down & calculate the MPGs of the Volt with using the part time EV system. Calculate the MPGs of an identical non hybrid ICE car of the same weight with perhaps with a Mitsubishi engine. Now find out when you will need to replace the battery pack in the Volt & how much that will cost? Did you save any money? or is the entire hybrid thing just smoke & mirrors?
Again with the assumptions and assertations. Quick math will objectivly tell you why they killed it. EVI project cost $1,000,000,000.00 / 800 cars = $125,000.00 per car. If leased at $640.00 per month maximum x 36 months = $23,000.00 per unit x $800 = $18,432,000 max total revinue generated. This represented a loss of $102,000.00 per vehicle provided it leased at the maximum rate and required no sevice during it's 3 years. So, of couse they killed it! It was an expensive experiment.
But GM used the cheapest & heaviest batteries they could find. Lithium Ion. bats are still today far more expensive than Lead Acid. I do not believe the Volt can sell for only $41,000 without incentives paid to GM to chisel down costs as they are using a more expensive & complex technology than the EV-1. The Volt is still powered by batteries, electric motors plus the added gasoline engine, the car can't possibly be less expensive to build.
I can see a lighter weight vehicle as Lead Acid vs Lithium Ion but how heavy is the engine then add a gas tank filled with gas? I would like to see those comparison figures. It seems to me if the EV-1 were kept long enough those conversions could have been made to blend into the Volt of today but I still don't see how the volt of today is any less expensive to build than the EV-1
and it was not an experiment, GM and other auto makers were mandated (forced) to make a zero emissions vehicles if they were going to be allowed to sell cars in California.
Pollution and toxic water peaked in the 1970s. You would be surprised how trashed our planet was in the 70s. Junk cars piled in streams. There were no used oil bins at auto parts stores, my father used to find a field to drain or dump his oil. driving down the road it was common to throw trash out the window. Environmentalists pushed for laws to clean up the water, remove the junk, fines for littering & even start picking up your dog's poop.
since the 70s or 80s the legal system through the environmentalists keep pressuring the automakers forcing them to comply. One Diesel engine maker shut their doors over the never ending pressure on Diesels. New Diesels are forced to have an extra tank for an additive. If the additive is allowed to run out then the truck only creeps along. This is putting a crimp on all Diesel owners & will raise the cost of all goods transported by truck...
This does not interfere with the sale of oil or fuel but actually increases sale of forced additives but the plug in EV to solar in mass is a threat to oil & government. The oil company would rather pay incentives out of their own pocket to keep the oil flowing rather than lose out to new technology & the Government would rather also use your tax $ to keep oil flowing rather than lose those taxes collected at the pump due to solar charged cars.
And lastly: "While customer reaction to the EV1 was positive, GM believed that electric cars occupied an unprofitable niche of the automobile market as they were only able to lease 800 units in face of production costs of US$1 billion over four years."
And this is the interesting part. Wiki quoted GM's statement yet GM placed a limit on lease onlys and if my memory serves correct GM had a waiting list for about 3-5 yrs out . GM did not come anywhere near fulfilling the demand not to mention that many people like me will not lease a car so they already cut out a huge sector of the market place. GM purposely kept lease figures low to show how "unpopular" the EV1 was but that is a deception.
Let me ask you this. There was the EV1... Now the Chevy Volt. According to your perception the EV1 did not meet the demand, test failed... So why the Chevy Volt? Oh, it's a hybrid !!! How is that different? Because we still feed the oil company. The solar chargers at work for EV1 had to go. No fuel sold means no taxes collected by State & Federal governments. With a hybrid a gasoline engine charges the batteries then you buy more batteries paying more taxes & feeding industry
Also from your source: "EV1 lessees were officially participants in a "real-world engineering evaluation" and market study into the feasibility of producing and marketing a commuter electric vehicle in select U.S. markets undertaken by GM's Advanced Technology Vehicles group.[3][4] The cars were not available for purchase, and could be serviced only at designated Saturn dealerships."
Also from your source: EV1 lessees were officially participants in a "real-world engineering evaluation" and market study into the feasibility of producing and marketing a commuter electric vehicle in select U.S. markets undertaken by GM's Advanced Technology Vehicles group. The cars were not available for purchase, and could be serviced only at designated Saturn dealerships.
Two paragraphs into the source you gave me: "An alliance of the major automakers litigated the CARB regulation in court, resulting in a slackening of the ZEV stipulation, permitting the companies to produce super-low-emissions vehicles, natural gas vehicles, and hybrid cars in place of pure electrics"
In short, law repealed due to tecnological infeasability.
I'm not clear how the death of the RAV4 supports your position. And, regarding flywheels as a kenetic energy storage method, when used in vehicles, flywheels also act as gyroscopes, since their angular momentum is typically of a similar order of magnitude as the forces acting on a moving vehicle. This property will be detrimental to the vehicle's handling characteristics, unless the flywheel is mounted within a set of gimbals, whereby the angular momentum of the flywheel is conserved withou
I'd like you to site sources on the law that you alledge forced GM (and only GM) to produce the EV1. Additionally, I'm going to go ahead and point out the spurrious logic you are attempting to use as evidence regarding the tax rebate for small buisinesses using a vehicle with a GVWR of 6000lbs or greater. This program was intended to apply to buisinesses using work trucks, vans etc. It was never intended to apply to luxery SUVs. This is just smarmy buisinessmen and women abusing and expl
Search the title below then look for the following stated law. If it's wrong then take it up with Wikipedia, not me.
Search: General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia. the free encyclopedia
the California Air Resources Board (CARB) subsequently passed a mandate that made the production and sale of zero-emission vehicles a requirement for the seven major automakers selling cars in the United States to continue to market their vehicles in California.
It's inflammatory politically loaded tripe such as this that will insure that we never see electric cars, the EV1 was an experimental vehicle that GM introduced into the marketplace as an experiment to see how the public would react to an electric car, and how the cars would fair in the field over time. GM put a HUGE amount of time and R & D money into the EV1 experiment, and as a result, they were YEARS ahead of anyone else. GM never expected to turn a profit on it, they just wanted to see
GM had built very nice prototype electric cars in the 1960s that never made it into the public sector. There are forces who manipulate & control governmental policy who favor the oil industry, they make the rules & incentives for the auto industry. Industry has 1 purpose, to make money no matter what technology they sell. Through public outcry the government FORCED GM to make an alternative fuel car & GM made it very well.
It wasn't GM who decided to waste so much money. GM was forced by law to make these cars, it was the oil industry with great influence over government & the auto makers that influenced Government policy to back off & influenced GM from the start to just play along & the oil industry would offer GM incentives, but it goes beyond that, don't fight the oil industry or they will crush you.
This was all carefully planned far in advance which is why GM only allowed the EV-1 on a lease only basis which means they have total control as to just pull all leases. Toyota (RAV4 EV) did not seem to have such close ties with the oil companies as they actually allowed sales to the public but as soon as EV1 was scrapped so was the amazing RAV4 EV. The Japanese could have cornered the EV market.
@lander4545 Common knowledge isn't always good knowledge. The funny thing is I have done the research. The research (and the trial courts) disagree with you. You should check out Chris Slater's article "General Motors and the Demise of Streetcars". There is a Wiki link I mentioned before that talks about this topic. Slater's article is included so it's not hard to find.
Rather pathetic that the poster of this video doesn't want decenting views with references.
You prefer the biggest gas guzzler on the road? you might as well fuel a rocket, sure it's fun n all but you either need to be a hiphop star or run your own drug cartel to afford the gas, which has suspiciously gone down in price since Obama stopped all offshore drilling & even went lower on the holidays. That makes no sense. Never in history has this occurred. With oil disasters & holidays oil goes up. We must be stealing Iraq's oil
Focus on the math, the energy, it takes to 'CREATE' a Gallon of Gas. ok, one more time, Focus on the math it takes to 'CREATE' a Gallon of GAS. Here we go, stay with me, How much energy does it take to 'MAKE' a Gallon of GAS! Remember the US 2011 MPG target. For the SAME energy it takes to 'MAKE' a Gallon of GAS, I can use this same energy to drive an electric car today at the US 2011 MPG target. The oil companies can leave the oil in the ground.
Listen to the people that owned them, they take off like a rocket into traffic, you had to be careful not to get a speeding ticket.
What GM doesn't boast is they had a massive waiting list that they would not fill, and besides they were lease only. I never have leased a car and never will so even with the wait list for lease only they never actually offered the car for purchase cutting out an even larger market
Yes shitty performance, the selected opinion of people for a biased video may convince ignorant but lets take a moment to look at facts.
Just look at top speed and autonomy. Even a cheap gas or hybrid car will have a greater top speed and about 5 time the autonomy. It may be sufficient for some user, but sufficient performance is shitty compared to regular cars or hybrids.
If you are referring to performance as in batteries, GM used defective Delco batteries for the first 3 yrs until they moved to a better battery but an entire infrastructure was being built just for this car, plug in stations at work. 3 hrs is no big deal for the average person. You go to work & even if you work part time it's topped off in the parking lot, you charge at home so how many hours before your back in your car, 11 hours or so?
Further more unlike what your video says, it was never "GM" SUV tax break. That would imply it only was for GM. It would imply that no Fords Chryslers, Porsches (yes Porsche), Nissans, Mercedes etc qualified.
It is also completely wrong to claim Hummers would have never sold without this tax break as many (most?) buyers DIDN'T qualify!
Your video really is full of lot's of falshoods. Even if the overall "think green" message is good, lying to us is not.
So long as I'm pointing out flaws in your video, GM never bought Hummer from AMG. GM signed a licensing agreement to develop the Hummer brand. While it's nice that a month later GM shuttered the EV1 line the two really have nothing to do with each other. You also failed to mention that the intent of the "SUV" tax credit was never SUVs but was for medium duty work trucks and vans which are generally not purchased for personal use. Sadly the cut off allowed some SUVs in. I agree that was bad.
I don't agree with the "SUV" tax credit. It was a bad idea. However, it was NOT the same thing as the EV1 credit. Acting as if the two credits were the same is damn near lying. The EV1 credit was $4k if you buy the EV1. The "SUV" credit was a business depreciation write off. It was NOT a straight credit for buying a large SUV. The way you present it wouldn't make sense. Really, if someone got a $100k credit for buying a $40k SUV they would be STUPID to not buy one.
The video does have a gross error though. The video claims that GM tore up light rail and forced people to buy cars. That is a completely false myth and has been shown to be false. I would suggest reading "General Motors and the Demise of Streetcars" by Cliff Slater.
GM had nothing to do with the decline of streetcars. That was simple economics that said buses were cheaper to operate and maintain. Cities moved to buses to save money. GM was just one of the sellers of buses.
Repeating this myth is like telling people to do research before releasing a product then telling them that because of bad research the Nova didn't sell well in Spanish speaking countries. Well a bit of research would show that the Nova story is a myth! So is the notion that GM ripped up streetcar lines. People who repeat it discredit themselves by, in effect, stating that they didn't research the things they said!
First I ever heard of this Slater guy & his book. A century old story now debunked. This will take a lot of time to absorb, kind of like the movements that say the Holocaust was a myth & debunked.
All that stuff now requires one to do some very intensive study or perhaps become a historian themselves. I wonder if this is an attempt at GM damage control which includes clever lies.
You would have heard of him if you bothered to read your Wiki source. He is cited as a reference against. Of course that information could have been added later. Look at the Wiki article for a link to his article in Transportation Quarterly.
The Holocaust deniers deny overwhelming evidence. The evidence GM is weak at best. There is PLENTY of evidence that towns found buses to be more cost effective thus bought buses when streetcars got old.
Why are you so interested in spreading false stories about GM? I have NO affiliation with GM and have NEVER worked for GM. I would think my handle would suggest I like Corvettes hence an interest in GM. I also think we need to make environmentally responsible choices but I don't want people to intentionally or unintentionally spread false information to promote a cause. There are enough GOOD, REAL reasons to look into EVs and alternative transport. Don't make up false ones. Stick to the truth.
So you think I sat down one day & said. Hmm, what kind of false stories can I make up about GM?
I did not make those vids. I found those stories then put then together, this story is Legend, today is the first I heard the story is debunked. There is a whole lot of that going on these days & I wonder if a whole lot of people are trying to re-write history. For now I believe the legend until I have had a yr or 2 to absorb it. I drive GMs & like them but will reveal what I believe to be facts
Perhaps you should work a bit harder before you repost debunked stories. Why does it take you 2 years to read a PDF that can be found at the bottom of a Wiki page. OK I admit it was something like a 20 page article including all the citations and graphs showing a number of cities that dumped light rail in favor of buses NOT made by GM. We talk about LA but why not Honolulu which dumped light rail in favor of non-GM buses at the same time. Why?
You haven't given me sufficient time to absorb all of this but I wonder that because you love GMs that you will do anything to protect them, even cover up the past or you simply prefer not to believe anything negative. Would be like if today you heard your mother used to be a hooker or you really are not your fathers child, the first reaction is denial, disgust, hatred, embarrassment then to cover up the truth as your parents covered it for decades. few can deal with the ugly truth of life
FreeGlobalEnergy has several errors in his original comments. GM got no incentives from the feds to sell the EV1. The EV1 was not built to satisfy any federal mandate from Congress. It was built to satisfy a misguided attempt by California to force car makers to produce EVs.
It really is disturbing that people who clearly have so little understanding of the subject think that they should have a voice. Making such incredible errors makes reeGlobalEnergy look to be a real idiot.
General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
California Air Resources Board (CARB) moved on a large environmental initiative, ruled that each of the U.S.'s seven largest carmakers—the largest of which was GM—would be required to make 2% of its fleet emission-free by 1998, 5% by 2001, and 10% by 2003, in accordance with consumer demand, in order to continue to sell cars in California.[11] The mandate was instated to combat California's poor air quality.
GM was forced to make this car, GM did not want to make this car, the mandate stated "per public demand" so GM did not promote this car like they wanted to sell it, GM got the mandate reversed then crushed all the cars.
Consumer Information: Fact Sheet on the Zero Emission Vehicle ...
In order to increase the number of EVs in California's fleets and to ensure that diverse communities throughout California, including low-income and communities of color, benefit from Californias air quality
programs, rebates of up to $11,000 per vehicle are available to fleets that purchase or lease qualifying new electric passenger cars.
The fact is Corporations & Governments lie to protect their interests or the interests of those tied to the the Corporations or Government officials.This is something you should have learned by now, there is always an underlying or alternate story to the "official statement" of any Corporation or any elected official. More often than not the "official statement" is the lie yet so many fall for it because they believe the source to be trustworthy therefore a reliable source not to be questioned
The fact is some people like to find conspiracies where none exist because it supports their beliefs and/or agendas. GM as you said, made the EV1 to meet a CARB requirement. When it became clear to the idiots at CARB that the car makers weren't kidding when they said battery technology wasn't up to snuff CARB relented. GM canned the program because it was a huge money sink. A bunch of people with a poor sense of economics then made a movie about it.
Congress passes the Electric and Hybrid Vehicle Research, Development, and Demonstration Act. The law is intended to spur the development of new technologies including improved batteries, motors, and other hybrid-electric components.
See that little box with your name and picture. It has the date you posted this video and says "more info"? Well here is your opening sentence, "The GM EV1 had a $4000.00 incentive to buy this car forced to build by congress yet GM gave "
See the word "congress"?
If you can't get basic facts right how can people assume you have the important details right?
The simple fact is your statements are wrong. Shouldn't you want to make sure that all the point you make to support your views are actually correct?
GM was forced against their will for good reason. They foresaw that the technology was not ready and that the whole project would be very costly and the mandates were not technically feasible. I certainly agree that GM would (and SHOULD) want to get out of the mandate. Why would we hold that against a company?
California passes its Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Mandate, which requires two percent of the state's vehicles to have no emissions by 1998 and 10 percent by 2003. The law is repeatedly weakened over the next decade to reduce the number of pure ZEVs it requires.
Fixed. You could have just pointed out in my vid description window that it was the State & not Congress that issued the mandate instead go through all of this and I really hate it if one detail is off that I become discredited, it's like if I mentioned the sky is blue & the clouds are white is that not true as well?
The Chevrolet Volt is a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle to be produced by the Chevrolet division of General Motors and expected to be launched in November 2010 as a 2011 model. Its price is estimated to be near $40,000,[4] which would give a net price of about $32,500 after the $7,500 Federal tax credit.
you said "GM got no incentives from the feds to sell the EV1".
I showed proof there were in fact Federal incentives so can you reach a level of understanding that you are fallible like anyone else on this planet & don't have all your facts straight?
Did you know that GM only leased only 800 units yet there was an ever increasing waiting list that they did not meet the demand? so it was not that the demand was not there but the other way around, GM did not keep up with demand.
First off I would never want to lease any car so they did not open the market up to actual ownership cutting out the largest majority of potential buyers.
Even though a car is the worst investment this particular car would be an investment to me
Because I am not done talking about EV's plus I am working on business websites and getting tired. I have to decide do I get back to work or keep talking to you, hmm which is more productive?
I didn't realize this was a conversation about hybrids. I agree we need to move away from thirsty vehicles. However, I don't agree with spreading misinformation in the process.
The Volt is not a simple EV. The last I read the projected cost of the Volt was around $40k. The EV MSRP was in what, 1997 dollars. The Volt contains all the parts of an EV plus a gas generator.
The Wiki article doesn't support your claims! It includes a discussion of alternative theories as well notes indicating the facts of the article are in dispute. It says what the scandal is however, it doesn't say if it actually happened. Read the article I mentioned (a google search will find it). The article I include is referenced and includes real numbers.
I will argue with you because YOU are the one making the claim based on BAD information! You are responsible for what YOU say!
Ironically enough if you had really read through the wiki article you SHOULD have seen the dispute section and that would have lead to to the article by Slater as well as several other sources that dispute, with numbers and reasons, the whole idea that GM caused the collapse of ANY streetcar lines! You cited a source you didn't even read!!!!
In 1949, the defendants were acquitted on the first count of conspiring to monopolize transportation services, but were found guilty on the second count of conspiring to monopolize the provision of parts and supplies to their subsidiary companies. The companies were each fined $5,000, and the directors were each fined one dollar. The verdicts were upheld on appeal in 1951.[1]
On a final note if you study The Corporation it is vicious, full of Hostile takeovers, patent & copyright theft, violation of laws which you can track the ones where they were caught & fined, there are suspicious deaths. It is not the never never land you think it to be. The bloody battles of past are now carried out in the courts with an occasional blood shed setup to look accidental but obvious enough to not be.
A gasoline Rav 4, Side by side with a Rav EV4 when comparing gas vs electric works out to the EV4 getting 200 to 300 mpg's
I don't know how they do the math but the savings is incredible although one needs to calculate battery cost & battery change out frequency to really know which is the better deal but then there are no oil changes or tune ups. Wouldn't the oil companies see this as a threat to business?
Yes, they might. Can you tell me how they would actually stop it? If you are claiming fire at least show some smoke.
I would love an EV and have wanted one ever since driving a home built over 10 years ago. However, until the cost vs range vs recharge time numbers work out I won't get one.
All u have to do is watch how corporations function in government, lobbyists etc.Time will tell although GM is now owned by the government. The government feeds itself off of taxes collected through gasoline & oil sales to the masses, to recharge this car off of solar would be a huge threat to the entire energy industry including government collecting taxes unless they force a solar meter then u pay taxes on all incoming solar. I have seen enough to know they would do it. they just need is a law
I know you really hate conspiracy theories but one very old news anchor said "there are a lot of conspiracy theories, and it turns out most of them turn out to be true". I suppose you would have to live 70 yrs and be a news anchor because it's not like you would ever miss a single news story. So just watch & see how all this all pans out over the decades then the next generation will not believe what you have seen in your life
What's really dumb is the number of people who buy into the myth that GM conspired to kill the street cars. This myth has been debunked but much like the sales of Novas in Spanish speaking countries, the myth is just too good to ignore. However, it also isn't true.
@Corvettably It's common knowledge in the Automotive and Engineering fields that G.M.,Firestone and the oil companies bought up and shut down the Electric street cars across America! This is the age of the internet it's an easy research project for you! ; )
Also since you like trolleys, did you know in many cities the mail was picked up on trolleys. Some had mail boxes right next to the motorman. There's a Master Unit from Knoxville, Tennessee in a RR museum in Mount Pleasant, Iowa. It ran last on the Waterloo, Cedar Falls and Northern. The mail box is STILL THERE!
Trucks faster? In the states when the mail went by passenger rail. A letter was 3 cents with overnight delivery to most places. Today it's TEN DOLLARS!
The greatest question is? How come the general public did'nt have any say on whether they wanted streetcars, i wish GM would go bankrupt and cease to exist, and then we can restore what they through corruption and greed needlessly took away from the public, we want our streetcars back!
They did have some hearings on closeing down the railways. But it didn't matter. At one hearing a GM shill told the room filled with the public, bus exhaust and fumes might be.... good for you!
Also remember GM didn't just kill streetcars it was ALL rail, that they could. Mail was taken off intercity passenger trains. Which was a major source of income of the trains. Which of course killed them. It was put on trucks. Gee, I wonder what caused that? Amtrak's popular, never gets funding.Why?
Yeah, i was in Toronto last week, and it's amazing how clean and fluid their Streetcar system is, i dont know how they told off GM, but i'm sure glad they did, so much better, too bad Winnipeg did'nt follow, the question is are trucks faster than trains for mail? Who knows, but i do know that i would never buy any GM product
The hummers should be blow up in a nuclear test!
TVperson1 1 year ago
@TVperson1
LOL, LOL
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@TVperson1 *blown
TVperson1 1 year ago
What specific question would you like answered?
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
Free Global, watch this guy SomeHumanBeing, I highly suspect he is here only to instigate trouble. I have seen this behavior before.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@GlobalAwareness2525 Ive been following this because comments are coming through my email. I know what your referring to because when I check his channel he seems to be on a very specific mission to rid the internet of the GM story. Right now I am not sure, it seems he is incapable of absorbing the information provided him & he does seem to ignore point blank questions or comments, it could be an act. Unblock your email so I can talk directly to you.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
Mabey I misinterpreted your repy about your 65' Ltd, and so on. EV's are being built and raced BY individuals, there are whole divisions and classes devoted to them. Sponsored EV's have been ALL-OVER Pikes Peak, for YEARS. While we have seen significant reductions in the cost of batteries in recent years. At this point, we’re are still paying about $500 per kw. Even in LARGE quantities.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
Why do you find it so unreasonable to think that no person could build a car themselves? I've been building racing cars for years, against others who do the same. Hell, college kids in engineering school build cars. Additionally why do you think that just because you've chaged a few plugs and torn open an old FE series Ford V8, that this qualifies you as an engineer.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
"Why do you find it so unreasonable to think that no person could build a car themselves? "
I would like to know how on earth you derived at this?
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
It seems you resort to confusion tactics to avoid addressing very specific questions.
Stop this irrational behavior.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
Well, I hope your right that there are people who are willing to pay a premium for electric vehicles, because that is what it's going to take to convince automakers to build them. I for one think your right, as I am. Tesla Motors is also staking their future on this idea as well. But, I think Nissan is planning on losing money on the Leaf to get their foot in the door.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
The maker of the Tesla is a brave man & he doesn't have the power like GM. Nobody manufactured Lithium Ion batteries ready made to insert into a car therefore he had to solder together laptop batteries. Once such batteries are mass produced along with all the other technology then it will all drop drastically in price. There is a future for EV's but there are industries who still have lots of oil to sell & they want to sell every last drop before moving into the next technology
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
While these vehicles are unecessary, ostentatious and replusive, they do not require much R & D or tooling and thus are CHEAP to produce. I estimate each costs between $5-9k each, including tooling and advertising. Sadly, because American car buyers have little sense, these vehicles are
perceived as status symbols and thusly have high sticker prices.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
Ok, well that sort of makes my point. A tremendous amount of time & money goes into the initial vehicle design as was the EV-1. So after those initial costs I just don't believe that each EV-1 cost $125,000 to build, nor $80,000 but more like in 1980 in mass production perhaps $900 per EV.
When you buy product in mass such as batteries, electric motors etc etc then you get those at incredibly reduced prices & it makes the end product more affordable to the general public.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
I don't know exactly what GM spent to gear up for the Hummer, but I do know that the entire hummer line was based largely on ancient platforms. The H1's initial investment was paid for ENTIRELY by the U.S. Military. It was after all, a military vehicle. Putting shiney paint on it and selling for 125K was nothing but profit for GM. The H2, is a reskinned Tahoe, and the H3 is a reskinned GMC Envoy with a Jeep transfer case.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
Enough People were stupid enough and rich enough to buy the Hummer, trust me, there were plenty more EV enthusiasts that would have spent that for the EV-1 & I still maintain the cost of the project would have been paid back 10,000 fold if GM opened up EV-1 sales (not lease only) to all of the U.S. & the world.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
I also feel it is worth mentioning that while my brain is capable of retaining and applying knowlege presented to me during my youth, it is also quite capable of discerning a thinly veiled insult. Don't think that simply because I have the ability to handle basic math, that I have been "programmed" or am lacking in creative faculties. If you believe electric vehicle technology is so accessible, that a cover-up was necessary to surpress it, then pick up a wrench and build a car.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
Riiiight. "Pick up a wrench and build a car". Ive had a wrench in my hand since I was 10yrs old, rebuilt my first engine at 15. A 1965 Ford LTD with a 390 to be specific, and you are right. You do have creative faculties. You are very good at side stepping questions. You are typical. Usually around 18 most people think they have learned all there is to know then lock down the brain as to not disturb the foundation of all they have "learned".
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
Again, spurious logic at best. Because the Leaf and Volt utilize more advance technologies they therfore MUST cost more to produce? Your objection negates years of advancement in R & D and manufacturing. Imagine how ridiculous your logic becomes if applied to the computer industry.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
The point is that GM used the excuse that the $80,000 car ($125,000 by your calcs) was not profitable. You just agreed they now "cost more to produce", how much more? $200,000? $300,000?
So why are they not scrapping the Volt or the Leaf etc?
Can you see that logic?
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
Yes the technology is being subsidized and so was the EV-1 but for every $300,000 Leaf sold at $30,000 who eats the rest and for how long?
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
We need to step back a bit. I am just throwing random figures out into the air but to clarify you said the EV-1 cost $125,000 per unit. You agreed that today's EV technology "MUST cost more to produce" yet backing up further you think the Leaf's actual cost should be $60,000. Your statements do not line up. Per your latest statement the leaf should cost more than the $125,000 EV-1.
Something is a miss & I would like to get to the bottom of it.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
Okay "H". I kinda feel like Ii already addressed that 10-days ago. The volume of potential customers is irrelevant if product is unprofitable. The EVI project cost $1,000,000,000.00 / 800 cars = $125,000.00 per car. If leased at $640.00 per month maximum x 36 months = $23,000.00 per unit x $800 = $18,432,000 max total revinue generated. This represented a LOSS of $102,000.00 per vehicle provided it leased at the maximum rate and required no sevice during it's 3 years.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
Those figures are deceptive.How much did it cost GM to gear up for the Hummer?Very easily a billion $, no doubt, but once in place then geared up for mass production then the profits roll in yet the Hummer was not lease only in only 3 cities, can't you see the self limitation of the EV-1 project?
It was set up to fail. Naturally GM eats the initial investment but you make that back & more if you drop the sale price & sell mass quantities.GM did not follow standard sales protocol
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
C-comment, I don't answer questions based on nonsensical speculation about what could have been, but energy density is the reason, Energy density is the amount of energy stored per unit volume or mass. Gasoline has an energy density of about 45 megajoules per kilogram (MJ/kg). The best rating I've EVER seen for ANY battery was a lithium ion nanowire cell made by spectrolab for a satallite, it was rated at 2.54 (MJ/kg). Simple as that really.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
I made a mistake. I meant to refer you to H, not C.
H contains a very logical question.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
But it dosen't, why you might ask. Well, because Nissan’s efforts to build the Leaf's battery packs have been heavily subsidized by several governments. Nissan has received $1.6 billion from the US Department of Energy alone for battery production. I know great britian also kicked in a cool $300 million.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
Ok, Let's not over complicate this. Real simple. All subsidies aside It is said that the EV-1 cost $80,000 to build. You suspect the leaf costs $60,000 to build. Let's not compare kilowatt to kilowatt or performance vs performance but real simple. without any subsidies How much was an EV-1 battery pack vs Volt (or leaf) battery pack? how much was each component of the EV-1 vs each component of the volt (or Leaf)?
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
FreeEnergy makes good points. We are not comparing technology but cost to build. Actual cost to build the EV-1 vs actual cost to build the Volt without the subsidies. Volt technology should be far more expensive than EV-1 technology & it was already established that the Volt batteries are 3-4 times more expensive. Production costs today are far more than in 1980. If EV-1 cost $80,000 in 1980 then Volt must cost $300,000 to build today.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@GlobalAwarenress, lets talk batteries and economics, using Nissan's new Leaf as an example. Right now, lithium ion batteries for cars cost around $900 per kilowatt hour. The Leaf has a 24 kilowatt hour Li-ion battery. Under that math, a Leaf battery--if it were priced like a regular battery--should cost around $21,000. If the battery is roughly a third of the price of the car; the Leaf, should cost closer to $60,000.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@Globalawareness, you sound alot like that other freeenergy guy... I do not work for any oil company, GM or any other automaker. But I do work for the government, and I am an engineer. If you decide that makes me part of some machine whose sole purpose is to convice you of falsehoods. Then I give up. But, if you want to know things like the energy density of sunlight. The energy storage density of various types of batteries. Then I'm happy to help. Often if you ask questions like these,
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
That's good to know that your brain can be programmed to contain information entered by it's programmers since childhood, through your teen yrs & into adulthood which means your memory is in good operational condition but do you have the capability of actually thinking on your own outside of your program? For instance answering the logical question mentioned in the C comment field?
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
FreeEnergy also brings up a valid point. What did each component really cost in the EV-1 in 1980 when batteries used were far less expensive then Volt batteries & cost of living factors from 1980 to present are very valid factors. It would seem that production prices of EV-1 were way over exaggerated to get out from under the law requiring GM to manufacture a zero emissions vehicle.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@TuGuyBear, public acceptance IS the key. This was the central point that I was trying to make with globalfreenergy. The type of speculation exemplified by his writing does FAR MORE harm tha good. Vehicles with an electric drivetrain AND an onboard internal combustion engine for back up on long trips IS our immediate future! Nobody seems get that. The limited range, and long recharge times, are an obstical that WILL prevent U.S. car buyers from buying a pure electric. GM's Volt provid
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
A
Public acceptance? How about teasing the population with a remarkable automobile, only allowing a lease only & even at that nowhere near filled the demand. An entire infrastructure was being built to accommodate. Most people drive far less than 30Mi to work, solar chargers were being put in place for EV commuters at work. MOST people do not commute further than the limitations of EV-1
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
B
Pointing out all the faults of the EV-1 is exactly the same as pointing out all the faults of the early 1900s automobile. You have to hand crank the engine, engines were temperamental, noisy and smoked a lot. Engine rebuilds at 5,000 Mi because they had no oil filters. What a piece of shit, It's far better to just stick with the horse... as you might have said in those times.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
C
If major funding continued with the EV without resistance then battery technology would have advanced far beyond your imagination.Single batteries that could power an EV for months with no charge or travel 3000 mi on one charge. Far more powerful & efficient electric motors. The resistance has set EVs back by 100yrs. I think you do more harm than good & I wonder if you are paid by the oil companies to side track people from what goes on behind closed government/corporate doors
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
D
There must be a way for cities & federal government to collect taxes for roads & infrastructure. They can't presently do that if your fuel comes from the sun. Let me give you an example. In California, it's illegal to collect vegetable oil from a restaurant for fuel without paying a $300 license upfront as well as hefty road use taxes per gallon, people running home-brewed fuel owe road maintenance taxes which are built into the price of gasoline or diesel at the pump.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
E
GM was not the over-see'r of this project. All this goes far above GM. If people would only plug into the wall then this still feeds the coal & uranium industry, it can still be taxed per kilowatt but those pesky people are just too clever. They began using solar to charge their cars bypassing the energy industry & the tax infrastructure. People were bad, very bad. The people could not play by the rules to line the pockets of industry & government so the elite pulled the plug
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
F
But the elite are preparing for such future. Recently a politician tried to pass a bill through congress, a wind tax. Yes, now that so many wind farms are popping up it is cutting into the building of more power plants. Soon there will be a Sun tax or the enforcement of meters placed on wind mills & solar panels & you will be taxed for kilowatts used. The tax laws must be passed prior to us being allowed further major EV technology
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
G
Everybody who leased the EV1&2 loved the cars, many more people wanted them so when you say they were not popular enough is pure falsehood. That's like me asking 5000 children if they want a gum ball but I only have 10 gumballs & anybody else interested can put their name on the list. 4500 of them put their name on the list but I never provide anymore gumballs than the original 10, so does that mean gumballs were not popular among the children?
That's your line of reasoning.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
H
Furthermore. The EV1 was made available only to residents of Los Angeles, Phoenix & Tucson. Since you refer to figures why don't you take the actual waiting list numbers of those 3 cities then duplicate those with all comparable cities per populous then you tell me just how popular that car would have been under a lease only situation. I am just really surprised that you fail to see these obvious details specifically designed to sucker the masses, meaning you.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
Back to the batteries... You asked: "Why Li-ion and not the cheaper NIMH or lead acid?". Weight. Li-ion's have an energy density of up to 300 watt-hours per kilogram. While NiMH has 240 watt-hours per kilogran and Lead Acid has about 100 per kilogram And yes I think the prices of Li-ion batteries have come down on that much I
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
You continually fail to see my point. Firstly a recent article about the Tesla says that Li bats are 4-5 X more expensive TODAY then NIMH. My point has nothing to do with weight or battery life etc but strictly with How Much Did It Really Cost To Manufacture The EV-2?
That is a very simple question which you continually choose to ignore & I am not too sure where to begin to locate 1980s prices for the bats or various components used in the EV-2 yet I suspect that you might.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
If you are referring to me then you are quoting me as saying things I never said.
I never asked: "Why Li-ion and not the cheaper NIMH or lead acid?"
I suspect you are quickly scanning my words then deriving at what you think I said. Please take time to actually absorb my comments or questions before replying.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
You need not worry about me being unable to accept it if I was proven wrong, if fact I would welcome it. Because, I would rather be happy then right. That said however, I've spend enough time designing machines, and yes even cars, to know what is and isn't possible. My mind isn't "blocked". I am not afraid. and it precisely BECAUSE, I know the truth, that I am unafraid It's not a zionist agenda, freemasons, oil companies, or GM. Right here, right now, the problem is public acceptance i
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing Because the public know nothing about electric cars except what they are told by those that don't want electric cars in the market place.
tuguybear 1 year ago
Toyota models using Li-ion:
Prius, Camery, Highlander, RX series & LS Honda models using Li-ion:
Civic Hybrid and Insight Nissan models using Li-ion:
Altima Hybrid, and soon Leaf electric Ford model using Li-ion
Escape/Mariner and Fusion hybrid GM models using Li-ion:
Tahoe hybrid and Volt
NiMh - None
Lead acid - None
Must be a conspiracy, quick go bust it!
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
I am trying to point out a couple of things but you keep putting up mental blocks because you have or had a specific path or goal and that is to prove a corporate monopoly is non existent. It's ok to learn the truth no matter what it may be and it's ok with me if I am wrong but the question is: Is it ok with you if you are wrong? So far I think not. Can we please continue with calculating the facts & figures?...
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
$15,000 are in the batteries alone for the $41,000 Volt. The point I am trying to make & I am just not making clear enough is that I think the reported EV-1 & 2 production costs are a lie. I tried to show you the EV-1 used cheaper batteries so the EV-1 should cost less than the Volt yet you make the claim the other parts of the Volt are cheaper. Really? perhaps, but add inflationary costs & are those parts today cheaper than in 1980?
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
It's a simple question. Break down the cost of every part of the EV-1 or 2 in 1980 prices.
Then break down the cost of every part of the Volt in 2010 prices.
Already we have established that the L-ion batteries are not less expensive than EV-2 bats but are 4 to 5 Xs more expensive in 2010 prices but what is the comparison of 2010 L-ion bats to 1980s nickel-metal-hydride bats in cost?
based on this alone the Volt should be 5 to 10x or more than the EV-2 in production costs
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
In a sunny location, sunlight has a power density of about 1 kW/m^2. Current photovoltaic solar cells can convert this power into electricity with 14% efficiency, even if advances in technology made them 100% efficient, a 50hp car would require 20M^2. No pure solar car, no starlight car not now, not ever. Sorry.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
You are referring to old solar technology. The technology that exists for the general public. I am referring to solar technology in the lab. Be very careful thinking that technology or invention has reached it's peak, it never does. Advanced solar now additionally recognizes ultraviolet light, it works on cloudy days, after sunset & before sunrise. The once larger panel has been reduced to fit in the palm of your hand yet produce more output.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
In the 90s scientists were working on pulsating or vibrating solar panels. I can't explain it very well but on a very small scale as light hit these nano motors they vibrate creating electrical current. When I was exploring Nuclear technology I discovered that at some point research is kept quiet sometimes for decades until patents etc are in place before announced to the public.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
The battery pack in the Tesla Roadster is the result of innovative systems engineering and 20 years of advances in Lithium-ion battery technology. The ingenious pack architecture enables world-class acceleration, safety, range, and reliability. Do your homework!!
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
Riiiiiight, so what is the Volt using?
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
First, in the 1980's the EV1 was just a twinkle in an ambitious engineer's eye. So, your guessing about inflation conspiracies is pure speculative nonsense. I do not find it hard to believe that the EV1 was that expensive and that the Volt's component costs have come down by that much in the nearly 20 years of innovation since the EV1 died. It's called progress, and it's a good thing. Don't be afraid.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
You twist my words. "Inflation Conspiracy"?
Do you even know what the word conspiracy means?
I don't think such a thing can exist if you fully understand the meaning of the word conspiracy.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
I got this from an article about the Tesla Roadster.
" Li-ion batteries are around four to five times more expensive than nickel-metal-hydride ones [source: Popely]. Since the car-capable packs can cost between $10,000 and $15,000 each, finding a cheaper alternative will be a major hurdle for car companies "
...and that's my point. The Li batteries are far more expensive not less expensive as you mention.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
This is also my points against the hybrid cars that claim 40mpg, 80mpg or the new super powered "Revenge" hybrid that claims 110mpg with a 400hp v8 engine. This is incredibly deceptive because if the engine ran full time it would likely never come anywhere near 110mpg. It's all in the EV battery pack, then see how much money you saved when you have to buy a new battery pack for $10,000 - $15,000
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@FreeGlobalEnergy
Oops. Using the Revenge as an example of your typical hybrid was a mistake.
I need to study this more but it seems the Revenge is the technology beyond the typical hybrid. This technology is really amazing.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
I am being very negative towards today's hybrids yet I do see a future where further improvements are made in battery technology. More powerful and less expensive is the way technology has always gone but if you saw advanced solar in the lab then it might become clear that most hybrid cars won't require the engine anymore as solar will eventually be so sensitive & powerful it will run off of star light. Batteries will be much smaller & hold a longer charge.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
If you looked up the true meaning of conspiracy then you quickly realize that since ancient time there is always a conspiracy to dominate & control both people and industry. The courts imprison people daily for conspiracy to defraud, conspiracy to murder & a never ending trail of varied conspiracies but in business & government it is so common we think of it not as conspiracy but simply the normal function of business & politics yet they are still conspiracies none the less.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
A-1
I would like to take you back to a time when the horse industry ruled. The invention of the automobile was a threat to this industry. The horse industry was not as scrupulous as the oil industry would become but they tried to fight off this new technology by placing ridiculous legal requirements on the books for automobile owners but the Love affair with the automobile was too powerful & could not be stopped.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
A-2
The oil industry had their reign of power over industry & government but the newer technologies are slowly creeping in, they can't stop the conversion from oil to other technologies forever. What we see evolving today should have occurred in the 60s but old industries fight to stay in power as long as possible retarding the natural growth of things that could be.
If you owned an oil field wouldn't you want to sell every last drop?
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
For your similar gasoline economy car to hybrid comparision, I'll use the 2011 Chevrolet Cruze 4-door, which is powered soley by a turbocharged and direct injection version of the SAMEOpel/Vauxhall 4 cylinder engine. With a 5-speed manual, it achieves an EPA estimated 28 city and 42 highway. Are we done here?
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
Incentives I was referring to would be under the table payoffs, not something advertised on sticker label.
Seriously. In 1980s the EV-1 cost what it did & with inflation what it is, the Volt running more expensive batteries, costs far less? That one detail does not compute. Cost of Labor is higher, materials & metals are higher, taxes are higher. The cost figures for the EV-1 must have been grossly exaggerated (a lie) or government is paying GM to lower the ticket price on Volt.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
The Volt, when not powered by grid electricity, an on-board generator. That means the Volt can go 500 miles without stopping. When did the EV1 ever go 500 miles without multiple 6 hour long charges? That's right, never. Inevitably, the battery requirements and technology of the Volt and the EV1 are vastly different, but GM will offer a 10 year warranty on the Volts battery pack, which is longer then the EV1 ever lived.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
Before you go off again tax deductions, or subsidies. The Volt is currently eligible for a $7,500 federal tax credit, and in California it qualifies for an additional $5000 rebate. The Volt will also be available through a lease program with a monthly payment of $350. And before you go on again about the "smoke and mirrors" of the Volts hybrid drive system, please keep in mind the for 75% of commuters, the Volt will be running on electricity only and recharged via the grid, just like the EV1.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
The Volts holds a whopping 9 gals of fuel and gasoline weighs 6.15lbs/gal so the Volt has a 400lb Li-ion battery, a 180lb engine and 53.35lbs of fuel for when full for a total of 635.35lbs. The EV1's lead acid battery weighed 1275 lbs (and had a 50 mile range) BUT, this battery was quickly replaced with a second generation nickle metal hydride battery which weighed 1100lbs. EV1's battery weighs nearly twice the Volts whole powertrain. Truly awful.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
The Volt is only propelled by the electric motor, the internal combustion engine may engage (via a clutch) to ASSIST the ELECTRIC motor The I.C. engine comes from Opel/Vauxhall's ecotec twinport family, its a 1.4 L DOHC 4cyl (2.89in bore x 3.2in stroke and 10.5:1 CR) with 90 hp at 5600 rpm & 92 lbft 4000 rpm, this aweful gasoline or E85 sucking beast weighs a mighty 180lbs.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
Yeah, those dirty corrupt bastards at GM, how dare they try to sell me a bigger, faster, cleaner, safer and more affordable car that I can drive everyday (on most days) without gasoline, recharge anywhere, and still take on road trips with my family. Just who the hell do they think they are!
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
I assume you are referring to the volt. You seem really good with math so sit down & calculate the MPGs of the Volt with using the part time EV system. Calculate the MPGs of an identical non hybrid ICE car of the same weight with perhaps with a Mitsubishi engine. Now find out when you will need to replace the battery pack in the Volt & how much that will cost? Did you save any money? or is the entire hybrid thing just smoke & mirrors?
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
Objective comparision:
EV1 - range for (Gen 2), 90 miles, all-electric.
Volt - Range 50 miles all-electric. Gas engine kicks in after that providing about 50mpg providing a total range of 500.
EV1 - 1175 pounds of lead-acid batteries Volt - 400 pounds of lithium ion batteries
EV1 - All electric, chargable by paddle only
Volt - Plug-in Hybrid using 120 OR 220V.
EV1 - Subcompact 2 seater.
Volt - Midsize 4 door 4 seater.
EVI - Price: N/A ($125,000.00) $640/36 lease
Volt - Price $41,000.00. L
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
Again with the assumptions and assertations. Quick math will objectivly tell you why they killed it. EVI project cost $1,000,000,000.00 / 800 cars = $125,000.00 per car. If leased at $640.00 per month maximum x 36 months = $23,000.00 per unit x $800 = $18,432,000 max total revinue generated. This represented a loss of $102,000.00 per vehicle provided it leased at the maximum rate and required no sevice during it's 3 years. So, of couse they killed it! It was an expensive experiment.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
A
But GM used the cheapest & heaviest batteries they could find. Lithium Ion. bats are still today far more expensive than Lead Acid. I do not believe the Volt can sell for only $41,000 without incentives paid to GM to chisel down costs as they are using a more expensive & complex technology than the EV-1. The Volt is still powered by batteries, electric motors plus the added gasoline engine, the car can't possibly be less expensive to build.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
B
I can see a lighter weight vehicle as Lead Acid vs Lithium Ion but how heavy is the engine then add a gas tank filled with gas? I would like to see those comparison figures. It seems to me if the EV-1 were kept long enough those conversions could have been made to blend into the Volt of today but I still don't see how the volt of today is any less expensive to build than the EV-1
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
C
and it was not an experiment, GM and other auto makers were mandated (forced) to make a zero emissions vehicles if they were going to be allowed to sell cars in California.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
D
Pollution and toxic water peaked in the 1970s. You would be surprised how trashed our planet was in the 70s. Junk cars piled in streams. There were no used oil bins at auto parts stores, my father used to find a field to drain or dump his oil. driving down the road it was common to throw trash out the window. Environmentalists pushed for laws to clean up the water, remove the junk, fines for littering & even start picking up your dog's poop.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
E
since the 70s or 80s the legal system through the environmentalists keep pressuring the automakers forcing them to comply. One Diesel engine maker shut their doors over the never ending pressure on Diesels. New Diesels are forced to have an extra tank for an additive. If the additive is allowed to run out then the truck only creeps along. This is putting a crimp on all Diesel owners & will raise the cost of all goods transported by truck...
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
G
This does not interfere with the sale of oil or fuel but actually increases sale of forced additives but the plug in EV to solar in mass is a threat to oil & government. The oil company would rather pay incentives out of their own pocket to keep the oil flowing rather than lose out to new technology & the Government would rather also use your tax $ to keep oil flowing rather than lose those taxes collected at the pump due to solar charged cars.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
And lastly: "While customer reaction to the EV1 was positive, GM believed that electric cars occupied an unprofitable niche of the automobile market as they were only able to lease 800 units in face of production costs of US$1 billion over four years."
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
And this is the interesting part. Wiki quoted GM's statement yet GM placed a limit on lease onlys and if my memory serves correct GM had a waiting list for about 3-5 yrs out . GM did not come anywhere near fulfilling the demand not to mention that many people like me will not lease a car so they already cut out a huge sector of the market place. GM purposely kept lease figures low to show how "unpopular" the EV1 was but that is a deception.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
Let me ask you this. There was the EV1... Now the Chevy Volt. According to your perception the EV1 did not meet the demand, test failed... So why the Chevy Volt? Oh, it's a hybrid !!! How is that different? Because we still feed the oil company. The solar chargers at work for EV1 had to go. No fuel sold means no taxes collected by State & Federal governments. With a hybrid a gasoline engine charges the batteries then you buy more batteries paying more taxes & feeding industry
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Also from your source: "EV1 lessees were officially participants in a "real-world engineering evaluation" and market study into the feasibility of producing and marketing a commuter electric vehicle in select U.S. markets undertaken by GM's Advanced Technology Vehicles group.[3][4] The cars were not available for purchase, and could be serviced only at designated Saturn dealerships."
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
Also from your source: EV1 lessees were officially participants in a "real-world engineering evaluation" and market study into the feasibility of producing and marketing a commuter electric vehicle in select U.S. markets undertaken by GM's Advanced Technology Vehicles group. The cars were not available for purchase, and could be serviced only at designated Saturn dealerships.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
Two paragraphs into the source you gave me: "An alliance of the major automakers litigated the CARB regulation in court, resulting in a slackening of the ZEV stipulation, permitting the companies to produce super-low-emissions vehicles, natural gas vehicles, and hybrid cars in place of pure electrics"
In short, law repealed due to tecnological infeasability.
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
I'm not clear how the death of the RAV4 supports your position. And, regarding flywheels as a kenetic energy storage method, when used in vehicles, flywheels also act as gyroscopes, since their angular momentum is typically of a similar order of magnitude as the forces acting on a moving vehicle. This property will be detrimental to the vehicle's handling characteristics, unless the flywheel is mounted within a set of gimbals, whereby the angular momentum of the flywheel is conserved withou
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
I'd like you to site sources on the law that you alledge forced GM (and only GM) to produce the EV1. Additionally, I'm going to go ahead and point out the spurrious logic you are attempting to use as evidence regarding the tax rebate for small buisinesses using a vehicle with a GVWR of 6000lbs or greater. This program was intended to apply to buisinesses using work trucks, vans etc. It was never intended to apply to luxery SUVs. This is just smarmy buisinessmen and women abusing and expl
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
Search the title below then look for the following stated law. If it's wrong then take it up with Wikipedia, not me.
Search: General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia. the free encyclopedia
the California Air Resources Board (CARB) subsequently passed a mandate that made the production and sale of zero-emission vehicles a requirement for the seven major automakers selling cars in the United States to continue to market their vehicles in California.
FreeGlobalEnergy 1 year ago
It's inflammatory politically loaded tripe such as this that will insure that we never see electric cars, the EV1 was an experimental vehicle that GM introduced into the marketplace as an experiment to see how the public would react to an electric car, and how the cars would fair in the field over time. GM put a HUGE amount of time and R & D money into the EV1 experiment, and as a result, they were YEARS ahead of anyone else. GM never expected to turn a profit on it, they just wanted to see
SomeHumanBeing 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
1
GM had built very nice prototype electric cars in the 1960s that never made it into the public sector. There are forces who manipulate & control governmental policy who favor the oil industry, they make the rules & incentives for the auto industry. Industry has 1 purpose, to make money no matter what technology they sell. Through public outcry the government FORCED GM to make an alternative fuel car & GM made it very well.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
2
It wasn't GM who decided to waste so much money. GM was forced by law to make these cars, it was the oil industry with great influence over government & the auto makers that influenced Government policy to back off & influenced GM from the start to just play along & the oil industry would offer GM incentives, but it goes beyond that, don't fight the oil industry or they will crush you.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
@SomeHumanBeing
3
This was all carefully planned far in advance which is why GM only allowed the EV-1 on a lease only basis which means they have total control as to just pull all leases. Toyota (RAV4 EV) did not seem to have such close ties with the oil companies as they actually allowed sales to the public but as soon as EV1 was scrapped so was the amazing RAV4 EV. The Japanese could have cornered the EV market.
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
GM didnt kill shit!
GM MAKES CARS DUMBASSES!!!
the oil companies paid them to END research and abandon the project and to make sure no one followed in their footsteps.
like in terminator 2
kreigsmann 1 year ago
@lander4545 Common knowledge isn't always good knowledge. The funny thing is I have done the research. The research (and the trial courts) disagree with you. You should check out Chris Slater's article "General Motors and the Demise of Streetcars". There is a Wiki link I mentioned before that talks about this topic. Slater's article is included so it's not hard to find.
Rather pathetic that the poster of this video doesn't want decenting views with references.
Corbettely 1 year ago 5
I will take the Hummer any day!
RansomCowboy 1 year ago
@RansomCowboy
You prefer the biggest gas guzzler on the road? you might as well fuel a rocket, sure it's fun n all but you either need to be a hiphop star or run your own drug cartel to afford the gas, which has suspiciously gone down in price since Obama stopped all offshore drilling & even went lower on the holidays. That makes no sense. Never in history has this occurred. With oil disasters & holidays oil goes up. We must be stealing Iraq's oil
GlobalAwareness2525 1 year ago
Focus on the math, the energy, it takes to 'CREATE' a Gallon of Gas. ok, one more time, Focus on the math it takes to 'CREATE' a Gallon of GAS. Here we go, stay with me, How much energy does it take to 'MAKE' a Gallon of GAS! Remember the US 2011 MPG target. For the SAME energy it takes to 'MAKE' a Gallon of GAS, I can use this same energy to drive an electric car today at the US 2011 MPG target. The oil companies can leave the oil in the ground.
wingpilot87 1 year ago
Didn't california kill the electric car?
ShadowLugia555 2 years ago
I would think it was the shitty performance and autonomy of electric car that killed it. Lets not forget the fact it it take 3 hours+ to refuel.
Until someone can make a battery at least 10 time more powerful, their is not much future with electric cars.
keyser33 2 years ago
Shitty performance?
Listen to the people that owned them, they take off like a rocket into traffic, you had to be careful not to get a speeding ticket.
What GM doesn't boast is they had a massive waiting list that they would not fill, and besides they were lease only. I never have leased a car and never will so even with the wait list for lease only they never actually offered the car for purchase cutting out an even larger market
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago 4
Yes shitty performance, the selected opinion of people for a biased video may convince ignorant but lets take a moment to look at facts.
Just look at top speed and autonomy. Even a cheap gas or hybrid car will have a greater top speed and about 5 time the autonomy. It may be sufficient for some user, but sufficient performance is shitty compared to regular cars or hybrids.
keyser33 2 years ago
If you are referring to performance as in batteries, GM used defective Delco batteries for the first 3 yrs until they moved to a better battery but an entire infrastructure was being built just for this car, plug in stations at work. 3 hrs is no big deal for the average person. You go to work & even if you work part time it's topped off in the parking lot, you charge at home so how many hours before your back in your car, 11 hours or so?
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago 2
If people buy the EV1 then the gov. doesn't get the tax money from the gas they sell you.
19ranger86 2 years ago
imagine a $100,000 tax credit to buy an EV......
ndyt 2 years ago 4
Further more unlike what your video says, it was never "GM" SUV tax break. That would imply it only was for GM. It would imply that no Fords Chryslers, Porsches (yes Porsche), Nissans, Mercedes etc qualified.
It is also completely wrong to claim Hummers would have never sold without this tax break as many (most?) buyers DIDN'T qualify!
Your video really is full of lot's of falshoods. Even if the overall "think green" message is good, lying to us is not.
Corvettably 2 years ago
So long as I'm pointing out flaws in your video, GM never bought Hummer from AMG. GM signed a licensing agreement to develop the Hummer brand. While it's nice that a month later GM shuttered the EV1 line the two really have nothing to do with each other. You also failed to mention that the intent of the "SUV" tax credit was never SUVs but was for medium duty work trucks and vans which are generally not purchased for personal use. Sadly the cut off allowed some SUVs in. I agree that was bad.
Corvettably 2 years ago
I don't agree with the "SUV" tax credit. It was a bad idea. However, it was NOT the same thing as the EV1 credit. Acting as if the two credits were the same is damn near lying. The EV1 credit was $4k if you buy the EV1. The "SUV" credit was a business depreciation write off. It was NOT a straight credit for buying a large SUV. The way you present it wouldn't make sense. Really, if someone got a $100k credit for buying a $40k SUV they would be STUPID to not buy one.
Corvettably 2 years ago
The video does have a gross error though. The video claims that GM tore up light rail and forced people to buy cars. That is a completely false myth and has been shown to be false. I would suggest reading "General Motors and the Demise of Streetcars" by Cliff Slater.
GM had nothing to do with the decline of streetcars. That was simple economics that said buses were cheaper to operate and maintain. Cities moved to buses to save money. GM was just one of the sellers of buses.
Corvettably 2 years ago
Repeating this myth is like telling people to do research before releasing a product then telling them that because of bad research the Nova didn't sell well in Spanish speaking countries. Well a bit of research would show that the Nova story is a myth! So is the notion that GM ripped up streetcar lines. People who repeat it discredit themselves by, in effect, stating that they didn't research the things they said!
Corvettably 2 years ago
First I ever heard of this Slater guy & his book. A century old story now debunked. This will take a lot of time to absorb, kind of like the movements that say the Holocaust was a myth & debunked.
All that stuff now requires one to do some very intensive study or perhaps become a historian themselves. I wonder if this is an attempt at GM damage control which includes clever lies.
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
You would have heard of him if you bothered to read your Wiki source. He is cited as a reference against. Of course that information could have been added later. Look at the Wiki article for a link to his article in Transportation Quarterly.
The Holocaust deniers deny overwhelming evidence. The evidence GM is weak at best. There is PLENTY of evidence that towns found buses to be more cost effective thus bought buses when streetcars got old.
Corvettably 2 years ago
It's also interesting that you are on a mission here as you are submitting posts to other similar channels who tell the same story.
Why is this your passion?
What motivates you to do this?
Is GM or the government paying you?
Are you a Government/GM Public Relations employee?
Such things do exist. Edward Bernays invented the term Public Relations which originally meant Propaganda Expert
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
Why are you so interested in spreading false stories about GM? I have NO affiliation with GM and have NEVER worked for GM. I would think my handle would suggest I like Corvettes hence an interest in GM. I also think we need to make environmentally responsible choices but I don't want people to intentionally or unintentionally spread false information to promote a cause. There are enough GOOD, REAL reasons to look into EVs and alternative transport. Don't make up false ones. Stick to the truth.
Corvettably 2 years ago
So you think I sat down one day & said. Hmm, what kind of false stories can I make up about GM?
I did not make those vids. I found those stories then put then together, this story is Legend, today is the first I heard the story is debunked. There is a whole lot of that going on these days & I wonder if a whole lot of people are trying to re-write history. For now I believe the legend until I have had a yr or 2 to absorb it. I drive GMs & like them but will reveal what I believe to be facts
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
Perhaps you should work a bit harder before you repost debunked stories. Why does it take you 2 years to read a PDF that can be found at the bottom of a Wiki page. OK I admit it was something like a 20 page article including all the citations and graphs showing a number of cities that dumped light rail in favor of buses NOT made by GM. We talk about LA but why not Honolulu which dumped light rail in favor of non-GM buses at the same time. Why?
Corvettably 2 years ago
You haven't given me sufficient time to absorb all of this but I wonder that because you love GMs that you will do anything to protect them, even cover up the past or you simply prefer not to believe anything negative. Would be like if today you heard your mother used to be a hooker or you really are not your fathers child, the first reaction is denial, disgust, hatred, embarrassment then to cover up the truth as your parents covered it for decades. few can deal with the ugly truth of life
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
FreeGlobalEnergy has several errors in his original comments. GM got no incentives from the feds to sell the EV1. The EV1 was not built to satisfy any federal mandate from Congress. It was built to satisfy a misguided attempt by California to force car makers to produce EVs.
It really is disturbing that people who clearly have so little understanding of the subject think that they should have a voice. Making such incredible errors makes reeGlobalEnergy look to be a real idiot.
Corvettably 2 years ago
1.
Google search:
EV1 Club - Bay Area Rollout 3/31/98
Tuesday, Mar. 31, 1998
The M.S.R.P. of the EV1 is $33,995. The monthly lease payment ranges from $399 to $549 depending on government incentives available in the region.
SOURCE Saturn Corporation
Copyright 1998, PR Newswire
Contact: Necole Merritt, 805-373-9748, or Bob Tripolsky, 248-528-6122, both for Saturn Corporation
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
2.
Google:
General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
California Air Resources Board (CARB) moved on a large environmental initiative, ruled that each of the U.S.'s seven largest carmakers—the largest of which was GM—would be required to make 2% of its fleet emission-free by 1998, 5% by 2001, and 10% by 2003, in accordance with consumer demand, in order to continue to sell cars in California.[11] The mandate was instated to combat California's poor air quality.
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
3
In case you did not know:
A MANDATE IS AN ORDER.
GM was forced to make this car, GM did not want to make this car, the mandate stated "per public demand" so GM did not promote this car like they wanted to sell it, GM got the mandate reversed then crushed all the cars.
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
You seem to confuse Congress (part of the federal government) with CARB.
Corvettably 2 years ago
4
Lets go straight to the source
California Air Resources Board, Google:
Consumer Information: Fact Sheet on the Zero Emission Vehicle ...
In order to increase the number of EVs in California's fleets and to ensure that diverse communities throughout California, including low-income and communities of color, benefit from Californias air quality
programs, rebates of up to $11,000 per vehicle are available to fleets that purchase or lease qualifying new electric passenger cars.
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
5
The fact is Corporations & Governments lie to protect their interests or the interests of those tied to the the Corporations or Government officials.This is something you should have learned by now, there is always an underlying or alternate story to the "official statement" of any Corporation or any elected official. More often than not the "official statement" is the lie yet so many fall for it because they believe the source to be trustworthy therefore a reliable source not to be questioned
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
The fact is some people like to find conspiracies where none exist because it supports their beliefs and/or agendas. GM as you said, made the EV1 to meet a CARB requirement. When it became clear to the idiots at CARB that the car makers weren't kidding when they said battery technology wasn't up to snuff CARB relented. GM canned the program because it was a huge money sink. A bunch of people with a poor sense of economics then made a movie about it.
Corvettably 2 years ago
A
Your confused on many points.
It starts in congress.
From PBS Website
1976
Congress passes the Electric and Hybrid Vehicle Research, Development, and Demonstration Act. The law is intended to spur the development of new technologies including improved batteries, motors, and other hybrid-electric components.
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
No, your comments about the video state congress mandated the car. That is 100% wrong.
Corvettably 2 years ago
Exactly where did I say that on the video?
Please provide the number shown on the slider
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
See that little box with your name and picture. It has the date you posted this video and says "more info"? Well here is your opening sentence, "The GM EV1 had a $4000.00 incentive to buy this car forced to build by congress yet GM gave "
See the word "congress"?
If you can't get basic facts right how can people assume you have the important details right?
Corvettably 2 years ago
Ah, I see.
The video description to the right.
You got all worked up because I said congress instead of State government or CARB?
Consider the statement fixed.
The most important part of the message was that GM was forced against they're will.
If you were forced to run your business in such a manner you did not want wouldn't you find a way to get out of it?
You know you would.
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
The simple fact is your statements are wrong. Shouldn't you want to make sure that all the point you make to support your views are actually correct?
GM was forced against their will for good reason. They foresaw that the technology was not ready and that the whole project would be very costly and the mandates were not technically feasible. I certainly agree that GM would (and SHOULD) want to get out of the mandate. Why would we hold that against a company?
Corvettably 2 years ago
B
1990
California passes its Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Mandate, which requires two percent of the state's vehicles to have no emissions by 1998 and 10 percent by 2003. The law is repeatedly weakened over the next decade to reduce the number of pure ZEVs it requires.
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
Yes, this was the mandate that got GM to build the EV1. Why are you saying GM was forced by Congress? Last I checked Congress wasn't in California.
Corvettably 2 years ago
Fixed. You could have just pointed out in my vid description window that it was the State & not Congress that issued the mandate instead go through all of this and I really hate it if one detail is off that I become discredited, it's like if I mentioned the sky is blue & the clouds are white is that not true as well?
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
C
There is nothing out of place with the information in this video.
Starts with congress, California issued a mandate & the federal government gave incentives presented below
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
D
EV1 Club - Bay Area Rollout 3/31/98
The Chevrolet Volt is a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle to be produced by the Chevrolet division of General Motors and expected to be launched in November 2010 as a 2011 model. Its price is estimated to be near $40,000,[4] which would give a net price of about $32,500 after the $7,500 Federal tax credit.
You see, the Volt has a Federal rebate
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
E
Google:
EV1 on sale Dec. 5; leases range from $480 to $640
When various federal, state and local tax incentives are applied - a 10% federal tax credit knocks the capitalized lease cost down to $30,595.
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
We could go back through your comments.
you said "GM got no incentives from the feds to sell the EV1".
I showed proof there were in fact Federal incentives so can you reach a level of understanding that you are fallible like anyone else on this planet & don't have all your facts straight?
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
Yes, you are correct, I should have said no mandate from the feds.
Corvettably 2 years ago
Did you know that GM only leased only 800 units yet there was an ever increasing waiting list that they did not meet the demand? so it was not that the demand was not there but the other way around, GM did not keep up with demand.
First off I would never want to lease any car so they did not open the market up to actual ownership cutting out the largest majority of potential buyers.
Even though a car is the worst investment this particular car would be an investment to me
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
Why would they want to keep up with demand. They lost about $70k per car! The EV1 was meant to be an experimental car, not a finished production car.
Do you really think they would have sold many at $100k each?
Corvettably 2 years ago
Then why are they doing it all over again?
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
Funny, I don't recall GM making a new, pure EV.
Why have you avoided the comment about the streetcars?
Corvettably 2 years ago
Because I am not done talking about EV's plus I am working on business websites and getting tired. I have to decide do I get back to work or keep talking to you, hmm which is more productive?
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
I stopped in at a GM dealer & asked about they're large hybrid truck. The dealer said the truck only gained 2mpg & cost $30,000 more.
The M.S.R.P. of the EV1 was $33,995
Projected cost of volt is $48,000
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
I didn't realize this was a conversation about hybrids. I agree we need to move away from thirsty vehicles. However, I don't agree with spreading misinformation in the process.
The Volt is not a simple EV. The last I read the projected cost of the Volt was around $40k. The EV MSRP was in what, 1997 dollars. The Volt contains all the parts of an EV plus a gas generator.
Corvettably 2 years ago
Now the street cars. Don't argue with me, take this up with wikepedia or other news reporting agencies who tell the story.
Google:
Great American streetcar scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
The Wiki article doesn't support your claims! It includes a discussion of alternative theories as well notes indicating the facts of the article are in dispute. It says what the scandal is however, it doesn't say if it actually happened. Read the article I mentioned (a google search will find it). The article I include is referenced and includes real numbers.
I will argue with you because YOU are the one making the claim based on BAD information! You are responsible for what YOU say!
Corvettably 2 years ago
Ironically enough if you had really read through the wiki article you SHOULD have seen the dispute section and that would have lead to to the article by Slater as well as several other sources that dispute, with numbers and reasons, the whole idea that GM caused the collapse of ANY streetcar lines! You cited a source you didn't even read!!!!
Corvettably 2 years ago
The Wiki article reads:
In 1949, the defendants were acquitted on the first count of conspiring to monopolize transportation services, but were found guilty on the second count of conspiring to monopolize the provision of parts and supplies to their subsidiary companies. The companies were each fined $5,000, and the directors were each fined one dollar. The verdicts were upheld on appeal in 1951.[1]
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
On a final note if you study The Corporation it is vicious, full of Hostile takeovers, patent & copyright theft, violation of laws which you can track the ones where they were caught & fined, there are suspicious deaths. It is not the never never land you think it to be. The bloody battles of past are now carried out in the courts with an occasional blood shed setup to look accidental but obvious enough to not be.
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
A really cool EV is the Rav EV4
A gasoline Rav 4, Side by side with a Rav EV4 when comparing gas vs electric works out to the EV4 getting 200 to 300 mpg's
I don't know how they do the math but the savings is incredible although one needs to calculate battery cost & battery change out frequency to really know which is the better deal but then there are no oil changes or tune ups. Wouldn't the oil companies see this as a threat to business?
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
Yes, they might. Can you tell me how they would actually stop it? If you are claiming fire at least show some smoke.
I would love an EV and have wanted one ever since driving a home built over 10 years ago. However, until the cost vs range vs recharge time numbers work out I won't get one.
Corvettably 2 years ago
All u have to do is watch how corporations function in government, lobbyists etc.Time will tell although GM is now owned by the government. The government feeds itself off of taxes collected through gasoline & oil sales to the masses, to recharge this car off of solar would be a huge threat to the entire energy industry including government collecting taxes unless they force a solar meter then u pay taxes on all incoming solar. I have seen enough to know they would do it. they just need is a law
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
I know you really hate conspiracy theories but one very old news anchor said "there are a lot of conspiracy theories, and it turns out most of them turn out to be true". I suppose you would have to live 70 yrs and be a news anchor because it's not like you would ever miss a single news story. So just watch & see how all this all pans out over the decades then the next generation will not believe what you have seen in your life
FreeGlobalEnergy 2 years ago
difficult issue.
looks like the GM bailout is too much politics + business overlap & monopoly.
future of transport is Bicycle + Trains/(trams) + Teleworking (&tele-presence) + even "dormitories" - living closer to where you work.
shutting down railroads deliberately is pretty dumb.
walter0bz 2 years ago
What's really dumb is the number of people who buy into the myth that GM conspired to kill the street cars. This myth has been debunked but much like the sales of Novas in Spanish speaking countries, the myth is just too good to ignore. However, it also isn't true.
Corvettably 2 years ago
right, that makes more sense. market forces. people voted with their wallets for the convinience petrol cars provided.
if the trams/trolleys whatever-you-call-them were more prevalent, we'd just hear conspiracy stories about the people running those :)
i do beleive the Cars' days are numbered, individuals or societies that out-evolve it (bike) will have an advantage.
we still need oil for industrial manufacture, and most importantly FOOD production..
walter0bz 2 years ago
@Corvettably It's common knowledge in the Automotive and Engineering fields that G.M.,Firestone and the oil companies bought up and shut down the Electric street cars across America! This is the age of the internet it's an easy research project for you! ; )
lander4545 1 year ago
Also since you like trolleys, did you know in many cities the mail was picked up on trolleys. Some had mail boxes right next to the motorman. There's a Master Unit from Knoxville, Tennessee in a RR museum in Mount Pleasant, Iowa. It ran last on the Waterloo, Cedar Falls and Northern. The mail box is STILL THERE!
intercityrailpal 2 years ago
Trucks faster? In the states when the mail went by passenger rail. A letter was 3 cents with overnight delivery to most places. Today it's TEN DOLLARS!
intercityrailpal 2 years ago
The greatest question is? How come the general public did'nt have any say on whether they wanted streetcars, i wish GM would go bankrupt and cease to exist, and then we can restore what they through corruption and greed needlessly took away from the public, we want our streetcars back!
TrainmasterCurt 2 years ago
They did have some hearings on closeing down the railways. But it didn't matter. At one hearing a GM shill told the room filled with the public, bus exhaust and fumes might be.... good for you!
Also remember GM didn't just kill streetcars it was ALL rail, that they could. Mail was taken off intercity passenger trains. Which was a major source of income of the trains. Which of course killed them. It was put on trucks. Gee, I wonder what caused that? Amtrak's popular, never gets funding.Why?
intercityrailpal 2 years ago
Yeah, i was in Toronto last week, and it's amazing how clean and fluid their Streetcar system is, i dont know how they told off GM, but i'm sure glad they did, so much better, too bad Winnipeg did'nt follow, the question is are trucks faster than trains for mail? Who knows, but i do know that i would never buy any GM product
TrainmasterCurt 2 years ago