Aikido vs. Grappling (Koichi Tohei. 1950s)

[aikipablo100]

Yo era admirador de Tohei, Pero hace unos 8 años, vi este vídeo deTohei en Este enfrentamiento y quedé estupefacto! Donde està El desequilibrio, la no resistencia, el utilizar la fuerza del otro? Acaso en Aikido no se aprende a dominar a alguien sin dañarlo? Tohei FUE UNO de los mas Grandes aikidocas! Que Podemos Esperar del Resto, despues de ver y analizar este vídeo

[cruzerrepublic]

@aikipablo100 My apologies in advance, I don't speak Spanish and I had to put your comment through google translate.

In any case, another user stated that the movement demonstrated by Tohei here was all about balance. It does seem like he was throwing the attacker, but what he was doing (as far as I can tell) was just balancing out the attackers movements. Basically the Herman's energy in the video was just being redirected back to him. Hope that helps.

[matreyia]

Is that Gene LaBelle as Uke?

[cruzerrepublic]

@matreyia It is mentioned in the video that the pseudo-uke here is named "Herman".

[matreyia]

@cruzerrepublic - Oh, I had the volume turned off. Hehe...should have listened to the narrator.

[liotta75]

@73truthseeker Ive trained in BJJ with mainly with the Gracie family for 18years, ive heard of Helio getting hurt due to a Kimura lock and a headlock from Kimura, But Ive never heard of him getting his arms broken..hmmmm...i might have to check on that...on and I know how Kimura lock got its name..lol..

[eamonob84]

@liotta75 i thought helio's corner tossed in the towel before his arm could get broken. they knew helio was stubborn and wouldnt tap, so they stopped it before kimura broke his arm. at least, that's what i remember hearing.

[liotta75]

@supremeara915..yea Helio got beat a couple of times once to Kimura and once to one of his own younger students..but he never got his arms broken..anyways...he never lost to Aikdo, I know that for a fact...I never said Helio was a god a fighting, i never said Helio was a god at fighting, but he was good considering he was only 5'7 and 140 pounds, small compared to Kimura..actually his son Rickson Gracie is a way better fighter, who i had the privileged of training with.

[WHYNOTMEB4U]

loVE THE 50'S MUSIC : )

[liotta75]

If Helio Gracie was fighting that Aikido master..that Aikdo master would've got his ass kicked!

[fcuk4220]

@liotta75 , Akidio wasn't designed to combat or counter BJJ....

[Novum07]

@liotta75 Yea... sure...

[mrkitanai1]

@liotta75 I'm not so sure about that. Tohei was also a very accomplished judoka - he trained judo for many years before he started aikido. If I'm not mistaken, he was 4th dan, and a collegiate champion in Japan. In addition to this, Tohei saw a lot of combat action in WWII. So he has engaged in high-level grappling and REAL life or death combat. He'd give Helio a run for his money.  When Tohei went to Hawaii to demo aikido, it is well-known that he swept the mat with high-level judoka.

[xAristaicx]

@mrkitanai1 LOL. Noice man.

[gonefishingstudios]

Im no expert but this is what aikido is about the principle of aiki , weight does not matter its all about using your opponents force against them unlike karate which is force against force

[heathirving]

if you listen to the narrator he says "the disinclination of the instructor to use the more deadly techniques"

if tohei used aikido techniques against this man,which he is not doing until the last bit of the clip,serious injury to uke could have resulted. this was only an exercise in balance.

[cruzerrepublic]

@heathirving Damn, good ears! I completely didn't think about that. Since you pointed that out, most of the haters on this video should just shut up since Tohei wasn't really doing anything martial until 1:25.

[soin6]

This is worth watching 4 laugh but it good sorry no offence

[acquiesce100]

It maybe a skin deep analyst but I think you are over analysing it all. I'm not sure if you are fixated with Tohei, the esoteric side of Aikido or Ueshiba. This was a lame demo that haunted me all those years ago when I first saw it BUT thankfully when I look back now, it did me a huge favour. It opened my mind and helped me find Paul Vunak and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I now have a different perspective on Aikido but I still enjoy practicing it and meeting new friends.

[acquiesce100]

This video made me quit aikido for many years. I have only just brought myself to watch it after years of seeing it for the first time. Tohei was an expert at Judo and it was his Judo which saved his ass here. Was it after this he left the Hombu organisation?

[cruzerrepublic]

@acquiesce100 I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not going to pretend that Aikido has all the answers (nor does any MA for that matter) but I hope that you find an MA that is effective for you. This video was filmed in the 50s, so a while before he left. And yes Tohei had a lot of experience before he met Ueshiba O'Sensei.

[acquiesce100]

@cruzerrepublic - Hi, after many years of quitting aikido after seeing this my opinion changed of Aikido but I still had an attraction to it, mainly because of Steven Seagal at the start of Nico and Hard to KIll. I moved on to train with the legendary paul vunak and train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Training in BJJ made me become so humble and gave me a new perspective on Aikido. I went back training to Aikido not long ago. It was nice to see some familar facesand the new people you meet.

[cruzerrepublic]

@acquiesce100 I'm glad to hear that you're becoming a more balanced MArtist.

[martialfu]

@acquiesce100 i don't want to be rude or tell u somthing which sounds stupid because u have more ma experience then i do from what i can tell but.

u realy shouldn't be looking at judo and aikido as different as you are

the movements are very similar and the aikido tohei practiced is different from what is practiced now

also tohei might have been playing...... we never actualy heard his take on this but notice that he is not tired at all and expends no energy.......

ive certainly held bak

[acquiesce100]

@martialfu - Im sorry to say but I think you are totally wrong. Judo is totally different to Aikido. One deals with standing up and the other deals with the ground. It is as simple as that. Its all about what you know.

[cruzerrepublic]

@acquiesce100 I'll add that it also depends on what you can come up with at the moment of contact.

[martialfu]

@acquiesce100 even that is a skin deep analiysis not regaurding the nature of movement, that being said i think i am with most people when i say kano did everything he cud to keep judo a standing thing, in fact the highest win is ippon which entails a throw not unlike aikido

what i talk of however is the economy of motion, i mean to say they both yeild and double back from any position and idealy end with a submissive pin, both arise the movements of the abdomen and have different versions

[martialfu]

@martialfu part 2

of the same movements from the japanese jujutsu styles

they have far more similarities then diference especialy if u do not view it as just the apparent level , as i will argue both judo and aikido are similar to karate even tho they look nothing alike(but i wont bother you with that) it shud b note that kano himself praised aikido at their hambo and that tohei was a master at ki development japanese yoga and ueshiba aikido but only shodan in judo

[martialfu]

@acquiesce100 part 2

when i just felt like not shooting a straight blast and playing with it for a bit

jigaro kano formed judo which makes the framework for bjj

as an old man kano goes to the hombo of aikido to see what it is about and said that they were practicing perfect judo

he was a sportsmen and a physical education teacher but other then that aikido is very similar it is a spiritual version as opposed to sportlike

toheis judo where he was shodan is just his early aikido

[mrkitanai1]

@acquiesce100 You are correct. Tohei started judo at a very young age. He continuted all the way to college. My uncle saw Tohei demonstrate Aikido in the 50's. In the demo, Tohei swept the mat with many judo blackbelts using Aikido. However, when you think about it, Tohei was probably better in JUDO than any of those judoka! So those judo guys had NO CHANCE of taking Tohei down - he knew their tactics better than they did! On top of that, Tohei saw lots of combat in WWII. He's a warrior.

[theshninja]

@mrkitanai1 if this is true he did a good job of using aikido in this video rather than judo. Though the judo probably helped when his opponent tried that headlock.

[PrairieMartialArts]

I can now feel confident that a trained akidoka can protect himself against a laughing Fred Flinstone impersonator or a whale that is attempting to beach itself.

[cruzerrepublic]

@PrairieMartialArts or against a drunkard who has absolutely no coordination in their movements.

[Morgothhhh]

Well he knocked him down at 0.25 and he isnt really a grappler as far as i see...

He had totally no idea how to grab him (no collar grabs from what i see), no idea what to do on the ground so the title fail miserably. We need to see some real grappling, vs bjj or judo or sambo...

[FlyingNunchuck84]

Good Sportsmanship!

[Luvinhas]

Turns transcribe audio on!

Ahahahahahhahaha

[syimang]

This is ONLY showing grappling vs grappling (who actually can bring down opponent with only using grappling technique).

[cruzerrepublic]

@syimang Aikido is commonly pushed under the "grappling" category of martial arts. Not my words.

[indio2dr]

A power double leg takedown would've pwned him a long time ago.

[kenseisato1989]

awsome and that was just ikido's grappling

[unikad]

OK, it ended up with a draw. He didn´t hit me, I didn´t do anything to him. But in reality this is not too practical. And when I see sensei Tohei here, 10th dan and he hardly can apply any aikido technique without any force...It´s weird and after all those years I´ve been practising aikido, I´m a bit disappointed. Maybe it needs a better training. God knows...

[cruzerrepublic]

@unikad As for your training partner who pulled out after a punch, let me say this: If he pulled out of punch, why would you need to defend yourself? If your uke is not attacking or giving you energy, why do something when he's not doing anything at all?

I've bee training for a few years myself & honestly it is not expected of us to be masters. I'm currently enjoying the journey.

[unikad]

@cruzerrepublic Yea yea, this point of view is correct. But it can become a bit dangerous because then it is who first makes a mistake. I don´t wanna play with the attacker. Because it´s dangerous if he punches 4 times and he doesn´t reach you, but the 5th attempt you are hit. You know, he can miss you for 5 cm, but it´s always hard to guess whether you´ll be hit or not. So in my opinion and for practical purpose, the attacker should be neutralised as soon as possible. With aikido technique and

[unikad]

@cruzerrepublic ..and without injury. Otherwise he can keep attacking till he succeeds. Maybe it needs even better and more intense training for me..I know what to do if the attacker attacks like he really wants to hit you. He needs to give you the energy. But fast punches with pulling out with your entire body....that surprised me that I couldn´t get behing him:(

[acquiesce100]

@unikad - It shocked me as well and i was very dissapointed. It made me lose interest in Aikido for many years. All that training he did with Ueshiba came to nothing almost. It confimed the suspicions I alreday had.

[unikad]

I´ve practising aikido for a couple of years and I really love it and understand its principles. And if somebody really wants to attack you and hit you, it really works. But after yesterday training I was a bit disappointed. I tried a "duel" with a beginner, he as an attacker, me as the tori. He was trying to punch me or kick me. The fact is he couldn´t reach me, but when he wanted to punch, he moved toward me and then immediately pulled out. I was absolutely unable to apply any aikido technique

[franciscoreatas11]

@unikad I took 2 Aikido for 1 week.I apreaciate its locks and can see the dangers of applying the techniques at full force. My main complain with Aikido is that it's not practical, you can not train at full force,unlike Judo.Remember Judo and Aikido have the same roots in Samurai JuJutsu. Aikido developed the techniques of disarming of an opponents sword, thus all the hand locks and wide moves;Judo preserved the grappling.In Jujutsu grappling is not defferentiated between standup or ground.

[Daneeban000]

I like it when he falls.

[kmeyers85]

Doesn't look like the grappler is an actual grappler. He doesn't even know how to tie up or get grips. Probably an aikido guy trying to grapple.

[cruzerrepublic]

@kmeyers85 The white guy doing the grappling was part of an American documentary team in the 50s who wanted to check out Aikido. As mentioned in the video he didn't think Aikido could handle a wrestler-type attack from a heavier guy (Tohei is mentioned to be 120 something lbs while he was 190).

[acquiesce100]

@cruzerrepublic - yeah I think you are forgetting Tohei was a 6th dan in Judo or something like that. If you ask me it was his Judo which saved his ass and saved him from a very embarassing outcome.

[cruzerrepublic]

@acquiesce100 We'll never know because I don't think we were ever there at the filming of this piece. I certainly wasn't born yet.