Mahler 5th Adagietto Willem Mengelberg Concertgebouw

[katiechan4]

finally i find the adagietto that sounds more like a love song. :D

[AfroPoli]

This is a wonderfully stirring recording, dense and yet transparent, unsentimental and yet very romantic. Great Mengelberg!

[bbnjmnglrx]

gutstrings rule!



[pelahale]

based on Mahler's piano-roll recordings, this tempo is probably about right. But I prefer this piece slower in order to truly drink in the harmonies and textures. This is one of those musical pieces which deserves the orgasmic beatifice treatment.

[1401JSC]

@pelahale

Adagietto, not adagio !

You probably prefer a slower tempo because you listened very often to a slow version. Repeated hearings condition our taste.

[1401JSC]

@pelahale

Piano rolls had a limited time, so tempi were adapted to record whole musical chunks on one cylinder...

BTW at about 5mins, can't we hear a slight break in the recording, as if edited?

7:37 = 3 x 2½ minutes.

[oppgarden009]

this is a recording exactly 85 years ago...any questions? i suppose not!!

[oppgarden009]

this is a recording exactly 85 years ago...any questions? i suppose not!!

[oppgarden009]

@oppgarden009

[oppgarden009]

@oppgarden009 

[aardvaark069]

The authentic performance practice people change their stripes whenever they hear this type of performance, what with all the portamenti and other such forbidden fruit. Mengelbereg was super-great!

[MartinPadderborn]

I don't necessarily think that people look down on portamento as snobs, it simply went out of fashion, although I prefer it as being more expressive in certain passages. Mengelberg uses it quite often on the recordings that I have of him and they are none the worse for it.

[flylooper]

Because Mengelberg was a huge fan (and friend) of the composer (as was Walter) this is probably about as close to the master's vision of what the movement should sound like. I know Mahler was a big user of the portamento in other works, so this is not surprising in this giving.

[Berdjum]

A great musical video or audio post ... thanks for sharing it with us.

[tenorismo]

I have this recording beautifull blue label Columbia . The transfer is good. And for emotional reasons I prefer it over a modern recording on a cd.

[jhb134]

@tenorismo - Too bad that we don't have a COMPLETE Mahler 5th, from the Mengelberg baton. Despite certain swoops, from the strings, this Adagietto gives a FAIR indication of the Mengelberg conception of the piece ... never too-slow, nor overly indulgent. :)

[Alessandro9427]

I love the ''Adagietto'' from the 5th Synphony. It belongs to Austro-Hungarian period; another world . . .

[tenorismo]

@Alessandro9427  Yes another time , another place.

[Alessandro9427]

@tenorismo I love the history of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. 

[yanbu000]

...very brooding, and dark without being heavy…

[yanbu000]

AWESOME drag recitative tempo. Great pro & con comments too....

[Berdjum]

les sons des violons sont exceptionnels ... la façon, dont la note change ... ouaaahhh c'est beau ! et le rythme est réussi ...

et dire que ce n'est pas mon interprétation favorite ...

[fredg77]

Mahler was in the same room 20 years earlier when Mengelberg was conducting this exact movement, which leads me to believe that Mengelberg's take is what Mahler originally intended. Thankfully we have this recording as surviving reference as to the style intended by the composer originally....Today, the style is "milk every note as hard and as long as you can".... this is a breath of fresh air to hear! Thanks for posting!!!

[paulostroff99]

awesome!

[dkurgano]

i like how its not perfectly together, especially the glissando. it is more expressive with a slight variation in timing...you don't get this anymore with today's squeaky clean performances :)

[j72050]

...text says this is a 1926 recording...Mahler could not be in the room as it was recorded..Mahler died in 1911........

[StreeTRacR008]

AS IN SPIRITUALLY LOL

ahahahaa yeah not a tough one

[mulimansheid]

Lovely all that glissandi in the strings! Why did they stop doing that and sound most orchestra's at these days like a reformed church?

[vertigo4298]

i believe mahler was in the room during this recording

[orgelspielerkmd]

What a stunning morendo at the end!!!  Mengelberg had it right...he was probably Mahler's favorite conductor (and, quite ostensibly, the only one who got Mahler's tempi right--at least from what the literature shows!).

[lsbrother]

can someone explain what's going on in the picture at 1.24 onwards.

my guess is that it's a semi-automated cocaine snorter but I could be wrong

[TheStockwell]

@lsbrother Har har har! What's going on: Mengelberg is using a low-power microscopic lens to examine the grooves of what - I guess - is a test pressing of a record. Quality control or publicity shot? I have no idea. Still, your cocaine hypothesis could be correct - this IS in Amsterdam, after all.

[mahler151]

Ah, gotta love the good ol' vinyl!

[FredsBands]

intospective reading of this gorgeous piece by one of the greatest;

suggestion: the spindle hole is about 1-2 mm off-center, so we get a small bit of 'wow' but not too distracting

[shellac1925]

What a truly great performance! It's hard, after listening to this, to imagine it at any other tempo- what a shame it is that every other conductor except Walter drags this out as if it's the slow movement from Beethoven's Ninth. And what a great recording quality for a record from 1926! The portamento takes a little getting used to, but I think it's appropriate.

[pedrovski10]

So true Mahler himself conducted this in less than 8 minutes, and the whole symphony he said should play for 45 minutes most performances are over an hour

[shellac1925]

How could you possibly perform Mahler's Fifth in 45 minutes? The fastest recording I know (Walter's) still takes an hour!

[pedrovski10]

That's how far off the correct tempo the conductors are, "wringing the rag" to squeeze as much out of each phrase. It destroys the proportions of the work aswell. Beethoven gets massacred o n tempo. There's a graph somewhere showing the huge entrpy of tempo over the last 100 years it's very interesting

[Invisus944]

Really, because Beethoven also said that a performance of his 9th symphony shouldn't exceed 45 minutes. Both anecdotes by either composer, I consider useless.

[oppgarden009]

this is a recording exactly 85 years ago...any questions? i suppose not!!

[1401JSC]

@shellac1925

Mahler wrote Adagietto as the title of the movement, but stuck "sehr langame" (very slow) as a tempo indication.This gives lots of leeway to conductors to find a tempo.

[aardvaark069]

I suspect that this is closer to authentic performance practice than todays rather 'cleaned-up' performances. Take your pick. There are some wonderful effects hear but also, to me some very distracting ones. Quite marvelous with some unearthly sounds being made.

[septip123]

Zubin Metha said his two favorite conductors were Furtwangler and Toscanini

[mick2cu]

I love the use of portamento, the musical snobs who would laugh at this today obviously have no passion in their hearts!

[AulicExclusiva]

@mick2cu No passion and no understanding for the correct style in this music.

[kick030]

@AulicExclusiva

Mengelberg and Mahler were good friends. Mahler discussed every part of the score with Mengelberg. And accordingly to a letter of Mahlers wife Alma Mahler, the interpretation of Mengelberg was exactly what Mahler wanted. May be you don't like the style, but it is what Mahler loved. 100% authentic, the authentic tempo, the authentic instruments, the authentic rubati and the authentic glissandi.

[AulicExclusiva]

@kick030 My comment was an echo of the comment by Mick2CU. He had criticised listeners who did not understand Mengelberg's style. My comment agreed with him and was also about Mengelberg's critics, not about Mengelberg.

I love and admire Mengelberg as a conductor, and particularly his playing of this music, for exactly the reasons that you give!

[bbnjmnglrx]

@mick2cu if passion were to be measured by liking or disliking portamento, it would be easy.

[petrof4056]

@mick2cu Ho I agree with you, the lack of portamento makes me sick, particularly for this piece

[1401JSC]

@petrof4056

Brahms, Elgar, Mahler. It may be appropriate to indulge in portamenti, though only the latter composer actually marked them in his scores.

Though only once in this movement, as far as I can see in the score.

If instrumental portamenti are an effort to give 'vocal' expression to melodic lines, one could ask if upward and downward motion merit the same treatment, or if there is an esthetical difference between an upward portée de voix and a downward degueulando :)

[Camanesco]

A typical Mengelberg reading in the Romantic school of conducting: full of colour (notwithstanding the recording), full dynamics range, tempo fluctuation.

The portamento seems to get a lot of attention here. But by the time of the recording (1926) it was already an anachronism. Conductors such as Strauss, Weingartner, Muck, Toscanini were busy getting rid of portamento in their recordings; while other Romantics (Furtwangler, Beecham, Walter, even Stokowski) were staying away from it as well.

[ChalieChaplin]

What is he doing? 1:31

[hsoenario]

Thanks everybody for your valueable comments. Usually people like to give rubish comments just to sound interesting. I agree, it is a great performance and I would think Mahler would have done the same. Afterall, Mengelberg championed Mahlers music and they respected each other well. Also the Concertgebouw had already played under Mahler himself. Thanks for download. Mahler is my fave composer for over half a century!

[septip123]

i love those "sliding notes" at 0:26

glissando?

[robertssje]

Portamento. A lost art in string playing

[vincerooo]

...as well as the proper, practical use of the same in singing...

[jbguadaplayer]

And the slides are amazing.Those really makes it a sensitive performances.If this would be performened this way today everybody would laugh.I love it.

[hanserblich]

One of the most beautiful interpretations of the Adagietto I've ever heard! It's such a pity that everyone plays it at a very low tempo today, as I think that this tempo represents the character of the music much better.

Thanks for uploading!

[billyguns2]

I agree; Mahler indicated "Adagietto," not the usual self-indulgent Largo we are so used to hearing today. Listen to Bruno Walter's NY Phil recording from 1947, also a sensible tempo; Walter knew Mahler!

[billyguns2]

Wow, listen to the liberal use of portamento! If a conductor id that today he would be jeered at, yet Mengelberg recorded this just a decade after Mahler died. I like it!

[wetland1955]

I always thought it a shame that the recording engineers cut off the recording before the last orchestral whisper had completely faded, naturally.

[whitesandboy]

thanks for uploading rare recording. good to know how he conducted the music. obviously it sounds too 'romantic' to modern listeners. Look how he controls tempo based on affect.

[munkybrain]

I had fun moving the cursor backwards and forwards quickly from 3:40 to 7:35

[logenisti]

At 6:55, it sounds like one of the bassists went to the low F a measure too early.

[TedMichaelMorgan]

Wow, good observation. Still, a great recording.

[RadioFreeSpike]

Despite the crunchiness, it's amazing what an 82 year old piece of wax can portray. Thank you for posting!

[sausagekiller]

Is the song on the Roger Waters concert?

[nijnohin]

I feel this is the best performance of this movement.

[jabberwock01]

It was universwal practice at the time. It's beginning to come back a little, too.

[tzhuff]

i can understand the glissando in so much as this is a declaration of love to alma and they add a sense of sweetness to an otherwise passionate movement. i'd rather have a little too much sugar than none at all.

[iggyviola]

This is almost comical. All the sliding around by the violins. Mengelberg was a good friend of Mahler's and worked with him quite closely. So perhaps it was a practice of the day. Just sounds odd... But certainly worthy of interest to listen to.

[wetland1955]

Yes, to our ears it does sound 'odd' - but it is from another era, another time with different attitudes, and styles of playing and conducting. It is still heartfelt and beautiful and very soothing to listen to. As an historic sound document the criteria for judgement is a little different than if it was a contemporary recording.

[transformingArt]

Wonderful! When I hear this piece, I always recollect what I felt when I saw the last scene of a 1971 film by Luchino Visconti, "Morte A Venezia" (A Death in Venice)...This piece was so haunting in the scene...

[TedMichaelMorgan]

My father loved that film. He always wanted to watch it with me when I visited. I don't like the movie but the music is perfect.

On antther note, Mahler performed music much like this performance I'll bet. I think he was one of those who paced slowly and let the players enter almost at will. Just another way of performing music.