But anyways, I'm done with you. Read your bible then we can have this debate again. Like I said before, Christians believe because they want to believe, they don't care if their beliefs are true or not.
@nabuchiznasar Wow. You haven't read your bible have you? There's a man in the bible (can't remember his name but you can look it up) who made a deal with god, if he would let him win the war he was about to get into he would sacrifice the first thing that he saw when he got back home, well guess what? He won the war, got back home and it was his daughter. God didn't change his mind on that one. And the reason for colored people IN THE BIBLE is to keep humanity divided.
The Beginning 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
@ severe777 - first off it's "dummy not dumby". Secondly because you rant about believers of the Bible to be ignorant does not make it true. You fill up a comment box with babble about what fools we are and yet you manage to answer the questions with rational thought. Ignorant fools talk circles of nonsesne without using fact my friend, and that is you.
@overmedicat3d there is no such thing as christians, christ him self never taught to start a seperate movement from judaism, the name was given by pagans and idol worshippers to make the christians an easier target for slaughter and persecution..the romans never accepted the judio faith and the christian faith was even more supernatural to them as they believed in incest and domination through tyranny.
Now than we are becoming aware of the falsehood of chrstianity and judaism, MUSULIMS should do the same, so whitout the abrahamic religions we could become a big happy familly
The Christian God is an alien. Top scientists of the world like Michio Kaku and Steven Hawkings said aliens could of already modified their DNA to live forever (Jehovah and friends) and could manipulate weather and cause storms by technology (Like the FLOOD). God traveling through a pillar in a rain cloud during the day, and a pillar of fire by night (UFO). Angels having sex with humans then having BABIES with them (obviously physical beings, nonphysical can't have sex with anything physical!)
@overmedicat3d lol you dumbass, why does god have to speak to us through prophets? Why can't he come down here and tell us HIMSELF. Like I said, bible believers are all IGNORANT FOOLS. Wake up dumby :P The bible isn't the word of "god" like the world powers WANT you to believe. Me go back to school? Hey, I'm not the RETARDED one here that would believe the bible is god's word when it's CLEARLY not.
@Severe777 u think u r worthy? u r already blaspheming , ur merely but a speck of dust on this earth, if u wana sin and not feel guilty about it go ahead, but do not mock people who give up their own lives and freedoms to speak the truth.
@nabuchiznasar lol, they gave up their lives for a lie and an agenda. If they truly wanted the truth they would do the research and start caring if their beliefs were true or not, but they don't. They just want to believe what they want to believe because they want to believe it. :)
@Severe777 well thats ok, id rather die for something that has a philosophical meaning than something that gives me lives pleasures and makes me its slave..... stop watching movies and get books my friend..
@nabuchiznasar Lol, read some books other then the bible :) Like some on evolution and Science. Then come back to me and we can have this conversation.
@Severe777 already done, and u know what, boring!! in chestry they taught us the ancient ways of doing things which my ancestors did better than this industrial revolution shit, considering they simply primitve technology they had, i dont care what colour u r but even rich so called western european countries are not content with their status, i say bring back biblical ancient times, no phones, no comps, no tv, no guns, no boms, and no planes, som territories are neva meant 2 be explored.
@nabuchiznasar lol, no phones? no computers? What about air conditioning or heaters? Stoves to cook our food? Electricity? lol, come on man. Listen to yourself. And you want to bring back biblical times? So that means you would want the world to follow all the commands in the bible too? Kill witches? Stone unruly children? Perform animal/human sacrifices? Bring back slavery? Because the bible promotes all these things. You're an immoral person.
@Severe777 thats ok, im not appaled by ur judgement of my character, what human sacrifices are you talking about the slaying of izac by his father ibrahim? dont cut and paste it also said god sent an angel to stop it from happening...phones your own trusted scientists say it is dangerous radiation, airconditioners yeh thats why we have hay fever and asthma on unimagined numbers, animal sacrifices? u do eat meat and dairy dont u? black slavery? slavery is not exclusive to blacks untill cont
@cuntyballs07 You think what you will, so be it. But you are like a lion, and in typing this I don`t mean to insult you or cause you to vast of pain, A lion in the hot desert, with a large main. It ways you down in weakness and flies have infected your skin. Amen
I don't get why Jesus in the land of the dead would be disturbing? This was Rome who knew greek myths and Hercules, Orpheus, Odyssyus, and others went to Hades and going to the underworld and doing something there was what Hero's did. Plus Socrates in the apology talked about death being good because you could talk to other great thinkers forever. None of that is considered disturbing, but if it's Jesus then it is? What sense does that make?
the bible states in the parable of lazarus and the rich man that paradise or sheol has two sides: one side for the wicked, one side for the good and a great chasm seperates them
I like this video. CHRIST: THE DARK YEARS by Brian D Diederich gives the best account of the Complete life of Jesus. It has a chapter called Adolescent in Asia and one called A Teenager in Tibet. It explains how the secret societies used his church to manipulate the power structure of the world. How they made the world wrong. It tells of all of his travels and ideas.
I really liked your video and your channel. If you need any help getting this video or channel exposed I use a site called tubeviews.(net) It has really helped like 20 of my main videos get to the top in position. God Bless!
Keep us on the right path. The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray. (1:6-7)
Muhammad was once asked if these words pertained to Jews and Christians. His response was, "Whom else?" (Bukhari 56:662).
Ehrman has been called an "atheist" by a few people on the internet, but he describes himself as an agnostic. He was raised mainline (iirc) Protestant, became an evangelical later in life, and eventually embraced agnosticism due to his inability to cope with the "problem of evil" (how can there be an all good loving God and suffering?). He has no beef with people of faith, he just doesn't accept it himself.
On the opposite side, many people of faith would see most atheists as being people who have yet to be convinced of the truth of God, rather than people who "know" there's a God but choose to reject and disbelieve in him, because they're stubborn and/or wicked.
If you look back in the day, even the various heretical sects declared his divinity. The best you can do is go with the adoptionists who thought Jesus was a mere man, ELEVATED TO GODHOOD at his baptism. Sure non-Christian opponents of the faith would say he was just a lunatic or a magician, but everyone who ascribed to Christianity, even if heterodox, thought he was divine. It wasn't popular to downgrade him to a human prophet until the time of Muhammad, it seems.
Scholars believe that these letters contain creeds that are even earlier than Paul himself, making it plausible that Jesus was understood as divine by his first followers.
Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus may have believed himself to be divine? We have people like that today, and they are not all stark raving mad. But the idea that Constantine created his divinity is completely false.
Yeah. Sai Baba is one (guy in India who wears a red robe and has a big afro). There's a list on Wikipedia (many of them I have heard of). Sure it's blasphemous, but to their followers these guys are the "real deal" (though several of them seem to be obvious conmen, others are too reclusive to be scrutinized, and a few more of them don't claim to be divine, but their followers claim them to be).
"but to their followers these guys are the "real deal" (though several of them seem to be obvious conmen, others are too reclusive to be scrutinized, and a few more of them don't claim to be divine, but their followers claim them to be)."
And logically thinking, couldn't Jesus fit that image as well. I'm trying to find some way to separate Dogma from other earthly "con jobs"
He could, surely. We have no evidence he was a conman, and he's more successful than any of these guys (so far) but still. If you want to doubt, you're free to do so. My point is that people seem to be unable to accept that Jesus might have believed himself to be God, as if it's impossible (yet people today do this and they can't deny it).
I agree with what you say with the exception that it's not a choice of doubt, rational judgement is the standard, I think its a choice of NO doubt which is more applicable. Faith is a choice, it's a willing suspension of disbelief.
It may be, or it may be a case of a gap in an individual's certain knowledge, which is taken on behalf of something hoped for. Or when faced with two fuzzy decisions, the person opts for one they hope to be true. It's non-rational to be sure, but it need not always be a case of somebody putting their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and go "la la la" (if that's what you were implying).
You can't base your life on what you wish to be true, if so you will be unhappy and very disappointed. Your wishes have no effect on the natural world. I have always felt that faith is failure to think. The last statement is the problem with fundamentalists of all religions right now, you can't discuss things rationally if it happens to question their particular dogma.
Plenty of people do. It's when you have reason to suspect what you wish to be true is not, that you have to be honest with yourself and make a change or investigate further. There's a difference between making a choice on faith or hope, vs. making a choice on the opposite of what you suspect to be true. I agree with the fundie thing, that applies equally to conspiracy theorists who act just like religious fundamentalists.
"It's when you have reason to suspect what you wish to be true is not, that you have to be honest with yourself and make a change or investigate further."
I think you finally understand my position about questioning the bible and all religion. However I do suspect that many people who cling to religion do so by making a choice to believe the opposite of truth.
That's fine, but how do you know that's what they're doing? I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt, rather than just assume they are willfully self deluded (ie: lying to themselves). You may think they're still deluded, but there's a difference between that and simply not "realizing" that they're wrong.
The people who outright deny a logical, rational argument willfully remain ignorant. Not by rejecting their faith, but by simply not critically evaluating that which they have faith in.
Right, but you've got to admit many atheists do the same. Look at all the non-theists who are buying into this Zeitgeist crap for example. So it's a widespread problem, not just for the religious folk.
True, they are just more obvious targets. Anyone who rejects reason falls victim to the same fallacy. What is the zeitgeist stuff? I have heard it referenced, but don't know what it is.
It's a popular internet movie that combines three conspiracy theories together: that Jesus is a fictional character (made up from a combination of pagan gods and the zodiac), the USA attacked ITSELF on 9/11, and the world bankers and their cronies are responsible for all the wars in the world and working constantly to establish a new world order police state. It's of course a paranoid mess, short on facts, big on propaganda, but a ton of people believe in it!
Well yes, but I never contended that he wasn't. And I consider a huge difference to be when entire phrases are not even close, ie Jesus' last words. Not mistranslation or misinterpretation.
I thought you said he was a Christian. I agree he WAS (as in, past tense, before any of the books of his we're talking about were written), but not in the sense of "Misquoting Jesus" "Lost Christianities" etc represent the work of a "Christian" scholar. Which phrases, according to Ehrman, are regarded as Jesus' words in the books that are "not even close"?
Refresh my memory on Jesus' last words according to Bart.
I think a friend has my copy, I will be happy to quote it when it is returned. As I recall there is no mention of the traditional saying of Jesus on the cross. More pleas to die and no forgiveness mentioned.
adobster, unfortunately there is a very common misunderstanding of the Council of Nicea, thanks in large part to people like fiction author Dan Brown.
Constantine called the council to settle the dispute between mainstream Christianity and the followers of Arius. The first writings to declare Jesus divine date from the 1st century (writings of Paul).
As I state below the book is called "Misquoting Jesus". As to my beliefs, the nuttier all religions get it pushes me towards Atheism. Though I'm not entirely there yet...
What page? I am going to Borders today and I can check their copy. I swear I read it and it restated what Ehrman himself has said numerous times... he USED to be a Christian, but now considers himself an agnostic.
He did not "get there" because of "mistakes in the Bible" or because of bad Christians, but rather because the "problem of evil" weighed so heavily on his mind and he was not satisfied with the Christian explanations for it. He has nothing against Christians in general, he simply can't accept their beliefs in his heart anymore.
One other thing. I don't see how the nuttiness of religions would lead someone to think atheism was therefore true. Just because no existing system has "gotten it right" doesn't mean there is no God. There may still be a God that people don't yet understand or may be beyond their understanding.
This is my point exactly, what pushes people away from religion is the corruption, and suicidal/homicidal tendancies that come from it. There should still be proof of a God. The very concept of Gods is a human construct to explain origins and provide meaning to life. No one believes in the Greek Gods and Goddesses anymore. They were worshipped also. I don't base decisions on what I wish to be true. I don't deny the existence of God, there just isn't proof.
Well actually there is some group that tried to have a ceremony in the Parthenon ruins recently, and some neo-pagans talk about how they revere the Greek gods. But I think you got my point. All religion might be wrong and there still be a God. So you're an agnostic (or at least when it comes to any existing religion you've studied thus far).
adobster, I'll check Misquoting Jesus... do you have the page number? I confess I've only skimmed the book, but I swear I read explicitly in it that he said he was NO LONGER CHRISTIAN (not that he still was). He's known as an agnostic scholar. So if Ehrman CONVERTED BACK to the faith, I have yet to see any evidence of it. The book was not written THAT long ago.
Unlike Paul, Muhammad didn't repent of his assasinations, slavery, warmongering, and womanizing. Instead he's hailed as a prophet, while encouraging those actions for his followers! I may PM you tonight, as your time is up to give me your evidence.
actualy if their husband are around them they are safer lets say a man wants to beat her in the night and she cant defend herself and by your theory she grabs a gun and acendently kills that man and she goes to jail and she comited a great sin.
015voorhof, what if your Muslim husband has been listening to his Imams and they say he can beat his wife, so he wants to beat her? She can't run away, or she'll be "honor killed."
I never said killing in self defense was a "sin." Maybe you think that... Why would the husband killing the buglar be better than the wife doing it?
It is not merely "Paul and his friends," 015voorhof, that claims Christ's divinity. CHRIST HIMSELF claims this in the very pages of the Gospels. And the Messianic prophecies also strongly indicate that the Messiah as embodied in Christ will have divine qualities (not simply be a mere political leader). So throughout the NT there is teaching that Christ is MORE than a mere man, more than a prophet. He was always believed to be divine and that goes back to Jesus' own words.
I already posted the verses repeatedly. The epistle to the Hebrews, Philippians, Revelation all show the divinity. Jesus himself claims it in Matthew and John.
So in short, adobster, if you distrust Jesus, then of course you won't buy his claim about the Holy Spirit, and you won't buy the claim of the Church to have that Spirit to preserve its doctrines in truth. But from the earliest point of the Christian faith you have that belief, it's not something tacked on later to try to back up the Fathers' authority.
I think the Church put words into Jesus's mouth. Their probably was a guy named Jesus that had a good message. I can trust the essence of Jesus' message without buying into the Holy Spirit claim of the Church. The overall themes are fine, its when you get to the fine print that I have differences with the Church.
Reality is what I base it on, according to biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, the famous last words of Jesus are not what he actually said. The original words are in the Greek Codex Sinaiticus (sp?). Also according to Ehrman, the older bible's don't mention Jesus divinity. Their lies aren't even consistent from version to version, no matter what Jesus really DID SAY.
It's sad we really don't know Gods' real words.
PS - I don't think they are in the Qu'ran either, none of them have it right.
Show me the Ehrman quotes where he alleges that please. Jesus' divinity IS mentioned in the earliest Christian texts (the Pauline letters).
What are the alternate last words of Jesus that are not in modern Bibles? How would Ehrman know that Codex Sinaiticus is the real deal? (maybe Jesus' last words are lost? maybe he didn't have any last words?). Surely he doesn't make that argument.
The book is "Misquoting Jesus" and provides facts and exact verses. Codex Sinaiticus is the oldest version of the Bible. It is more of a crying out to God to take the pain away from him. Not the pious statements widely believed.
Psalm 22 was written long before the NT. Jesus is simply quoting from it. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but I'll check the page numbers if you wish.
Codex Sinaiticus is not the oldest bible. The DSS are much older. C.S. is simply the oldest COMPLETE Christian bible. There are fragments and incomplete ones that are older.
"Jesus' divinity IS mentioned in the earliest Christian texts (the Pauline letters)."
Would this be coming from the Bible itself? Is it corroborated by an outside source? In all seriousness, if Jesus was considered Divine from day one, then why did Constatine (after the Council of Nicea) have to make a decree announcing his Divinity? Again, I want to be respectful to your beliefs, but there needs to be evidence.
My point is that the earliest texts about Jesus refer to him as both divine and human. There's no earlier text describing him as a mere man or a myth.
Nicea didn't declare Christ's divinity. Both sides in the conflict agreed he was divine. The debate was over whether he was equal to God the Father (Athanasius) or a lesser created God (Arius). Plus the divinity of Christ was taught by the Church fathers from the 1st century all the way up to the years before Constantine came to power.
Now I see what you're saying 015voorhof, but you're still wrong...
For your argument to work, we've had to assume that there are 4 times more women of marriagable status as there are men of marriageable status (who are not yet married) in every country in the entire world. Plus we'd assume that all of those people MUST get married. Then and only then would you run into some kind of "shortage" and suddenly the Islamic directive would "make sense." It's still unjust towards women though.
And what about women who have sex drives more than one man? They are forced to live unfulfilled. So Islam doesn't solve their "problem" either.
Rather, insist on an equal rule for all... one spouse, that's it. That's how God created Adam & Eve, and that's what Christianity upholds (both Jesus and Paul). If some Christians don't obey it, that doesn't mean the rule is wrong.
015voorhof, you act as if a man having four wives is justice. What if those 4 women can't satisfy his lust? Have sex with his slaves. What if he isn't allowed slaves or his slaves don't satisfy him? Should he swap out his women for more? Muhammad himself had 11 wives! So Islam really doesn't solve the "problem" of insatiable human lust and weakness in commitment.
how do you see justice in this????????????jesus deeing for your sin beeing tortured on the cross for humanity you think God is cruel?He that only has to say BE and it IS and chooses jesus to get tortured for mankind sins?God is just and merciful at the same time this sacrifice is untrue.trinity is false God is not in need of partners to help Him out.not even one prophet put partners next to God the followers did.mozes broke then idols and then christianity comes with another idol jesus.
015voorhof, you believe in everlasting hellfire right (as all Muslims do)? So do you think God is cruel?
God willingly suffering for the sins of humankind is not cruelty, it is generosity and love. "No greater love has a man than this to lay down his life for his friends." Why is this sacrifice untrue?
Hell is for those who rejected God and followed satan that is their punishment they are warned and they chosen to iqnore it.
its untrue because God said it in the Quran and because its not just why create jesus just for the purpose to be tortured and die for something he did not do while God the All mighty only has to say be and it is why is this sacrifice needed?tell me.
015voorhof, you fail to see the problem... you say Jesus dying willingly as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind whom he loves is "unjust" but have no problem believing people who "rejected God" (by not being Muslim) will be tortured in hell for all eternity.
Islam accepts the idea of "substitutionary atonement." Mankind is worthy of destruction, but Jesus took their sin upon himself to show God's forgiveness. He didn't have to do it, but he wanted to.
so you say that people that dont believe in christ go to heaven while the bible says otherwise?are you an christian?you think GOD not just a person BUT GOD is going to ask JESUS to DIE for MANKIND SINS GOD said He is JUST and if He does that then He is NOT JUST contradicting his words and saying that He is a LIAR.God warn every single human on this planet that they will go to hell if they reject every single prophet send by God said so if you reject that you reject God.
015vorhof, so you'd rather everyone died and went to hell? Okay. If you're saying doing good deeds gets you to heaven, then how do you explain the Quran saying that people who worship Jesus or don't accept Islam are going to burn forever? (and even recommends killing them sometimes) If God warned everyone, why do you say the prophets were lost and corrupted? You can't blame somebody for not knowing then, can you?
And you and I both know that Islam teaches that mankind suffered for the sin of Adam & Eve. So people do in fact suffer for the sins of others. But when they do so willingly, out of love, for a greater outcome, is that not a sacrifice of atonement, and one pleasing to God? Jesus upholds the justice of God, and yet shows his mercy, reconciliation, and so forth. His blood is more precious than all the goats, bulls, rams, and other animals that you could possibly offer.
The Trinity is taught through implication in both the OT and the NT and by the early Christians. Jesus taught his own divinity as did the early Christians. Who are you to say it's false? On the contrary, the prophets taught that God was multiple (multiple persons, one true God). Idols are false gods, but there is one true God in multiple persons. Jesus is no idol, because he IS God in the flesh. If he were a mere man simply claiming to be god, then yes, he would be an "idol."
Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first
>>>Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, .....
All those who are modest will opt for the first>>>
That makes no sense at all. There are plenty of unmarried men and women in the USA. And if you switch it and say a man marrying a married woman, why doesn't that "work"?
Modesty has nothing to do with it. Show me where it has EVER happened that there was such a shortage of men that women had no choice but to marry men who were already married, or else "become public property" (what does that mean?!). Last I checked, women were not chattel everywhere like they were in ancient times...
Besides, where is the justice in demanding that Muslims "fight" the Christians and Jews until they pay a special "tax" or convert to Islam? Or that men can marry up to four women (and Muhammad gets to marry 11 women) and have sex with slaves, BUT women can only have one husband, period. You may disagree with it, but that is taught in the Quran as well. So please don't accuse Christianity of "injustice" hypocritically,015voorhof.
Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical. Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in USA who would not be able to get husbands
Not practical? Nonsense. One husband/one wife (or else celibacy) is how God intended it.
Not everyone needs to get married, in fact many should not! People can always marry folks from another country. We have thousands of immigrants coming over every day. What a silly argument. Plus, your logic doesn't help the double standard for 1 man = 4 wives but 1 woman = 1 husband. By marrying 4 wives, that man is depriving other men of wives.
Not everyone gets married (and believe it or not, it is not necessarily because they just want to sleep around... as we both know many married people don't keep their vows either). Nor SHOULD everyone get married. Jesus taught it was good NOT to marry if one is given this gift, as he and some of his followers had. This applies to men as well as women.
No. Fornication is condemned by Jesus and Paul in the NT. Celibacy for christians means not only not getting married, it means NO SEX, PERIOD. For Jesus and Paul, total chastity is the best. Second best is faithful marriage to one opposite gender spouse. Everything else is sin.
It's not that marriage is BAD, it's that according to Christianity, celibacy (no marriage, and complete chastity) is a BETTER state to live in. Jesus and Paul both taught this. You can also read St. Augustine's "On the Good of Marriage." Just because people cheat (and they shouldn't) doesn't mean marriage is bad. But if people plan to cheat, they should not marry. But we're all better off if people are monogamous or refrain from sex.
Oh, and 015voorhof, polygamy is not the solution to "people who want to cheat" because it only benefits men who are lustful (no help for lustful women) and can't stick to one partner. Plus where are the limits? You'll end up with someone like King Solomon with hundreds of wives, or like that King in "1001 Arabian Nights."
If atonement is not necessary, then you should stop doing good deeds, stop doing hajj for the dead, stop sacrificing goats, and stop praying for the dead. Those are acts of atonement in Islam.
But on what grounds do you have to say (without resorting to "well I know the Quran must be true" or "my Imam told me so") that the Bible is corrupt, 015voorhof?
All of the prophets said there is one God you must obay Him and only Him.and then came paul exc claiming jesus is God.thats why the Quran is here to clear this out and if prophet muhammad pbuh whas false none of his prophecies would come true and if he preached evil none of the opressed ones would follow him but they did you know why?because he preached the truth and peace.if there whas no trinity then the bible would contradict itself they found out so they came up with trinity.
But 015voorhof, you haven't demonstrated that the Bible is corrupt... you only assume it is because that is what the Quran teaches you and the Quran contradicts the earlier revelation. You believe the Trinity is false, so if the Bible teaches it, the Bible cannot be true. Some of your fellows are claiming the Bible does not support the Trinity, but I say it does.
Your charge that no one would join a false religion is false, because you believe that the Christians and Jews are false, and yet have millions (billions in the case of Christianity, even more than Islam) of followers, throughout history, and yes, many "oppressed ones" too! These also preach truth and peace. Paul did not come inventing doctrine, but was affirming what he was given from the apostles and Christ.
christians are still the people of the book but they are devieved bu the ones who corupted it they are lost.the jews religion used to be true and got corupted same goes for the bible but some are intact.christ never said he is God.
015voorhof, you keep stating this and I realize it's Muslim belief, but what evidence do you have for it? Why was God unable to keep Christianity and Judaism from "becoming corrupt" but was able to keep Islam pure? Why not just do that for the other religions? Christ said repeatedly that he was God in the NT, as I stated already.
why did God not stop adam and eve eatin from that tree?same reaason why He did not stop the coruption God already told them what would hapend if they do corupt the book but they choose to do so jesus whas a miracle of God then yet disobay Him.
But 015voorhof, you contradict yourself, because you said God stopped the Quran from becoming corrupt and Muhammad's message from being lost. That is a contradiction then in Islam, because it doesn't answer why God was powerless to stop the other 124,000 prophets from being corrupted and forgotten.
You disobey Jesus for not obeying his teachings, and instead saying his message is "corrupt" and listening instead to what some guy six centuries later said about him. See how that sounds?
124,000?hahahahahhahahahaha who the hell said there where 124,ooo prophets hahah there where only 25 prophet send and 4 with books of God.jesus never claimed to be God but then an ex serial killer paul came along after jesus leaving and claimed jesus to be God an ex bounty hunter that killed christians for money the prophecies of prophet muhammad pbuh came true and some have to come.God send 25 prophets with miracles some beliefed some did not.but send me a message in my inbox much more room.
Several Muslims have used the figure "124,000" saying that there are that many prophets sent by Allah (even though we don't know most of their names). If there are only 25, that still doesn't answer why God allowed their messages to be lost and corrupted, but somehow decided to make Muhammad's uncorruptable in the 7th century.
Besides, the man in Islam gets to have sex with his slaves. Instead, it should be monogamy, or else women get to have 4 husbands and have sex with THEIR slaves. It's only fair.
Who corrupted it? By your logic they all did. Otherwise Christians and Jews don't have to convert and can go to heaven, thank you very much. If the bible is intact, why do you say it is corrupt? Show me the "real bible" if you can.. Christ said repeatedly that he is God, that's why he was executed!
Not if it's inaccurate. Why would you want to include something written 200 years after Jesus' death that totally distorts his message, claiming to be written by an apostle (but centuries after that apostle's death and contradicting what the other apostles wrote)?
So you don't trust the apostles either, I take it? Christians believe Jesus' spirit and the Holy Spirit remained with the church to preserve the truth.
I don't think the current Church necessarily teach what the Apostles wrote. Leaving the Spirit with the Church sounds like a contrivance by human Church leaders. If I were going to secure a position of power, I would say that God left me in charge...
adobster, be that as it may, you claimed the Bible had been altered, so it would be nice if you could demonstrate this. You can read the Bible right now and it contains the earliest apostolic writings. Basically you're demanding that God personally appear and remain with each person their entire life, impressing them with miracles. You can't have a religion...
What do you think the apostles wrote if not what Christians teach? The Spirit staying with the Church is from Jesus' own words. If you don't trust those words, what words of Jesus could you trust? You have no idea, you're just guessing they might be wrong, adobster.
But human beings don't live forever. Basically he'd have to just sit there forever on earth spending every waking moment answering all the questions of everyone on earth... Maybe get angels to stand around answering questions all day long? Instead, he had people write it down and preach it.
Sorry, but take it or leave it, unless you run across someone who can promise you daily mystical experience to "prove" that God exists and you should worship God.
God is in fellowship with God's creation, that's what religion is all about. Besides, if these things happened to you, you could always say it was a hallucination, unless you want God to take away your free will or something.
That is the essence of my stance, that faith is not consistent. If you have it then you don't need facts, but if you don't tough there aren't any facts. I think God is powerful enough to be able to provide facts. And if He does exist, then faith is irrelevant because there should be proof. If He doesn't, faith is still irrelevant because He doesn't exist.
Show me these "prophecies" of Muhammad that came true. If a few are "still to come" how can you say they were "all come true"? You should say "some of them have come true" which is what Jews and Christians would also say about the prophecies in their bible.
So how could we then say that what Muhammad preached was "good" if it contradicted what God had revealed? "Abrogated"? Then you can argue there is another prophet after Muhammad, to abrogate the previous message, which was corrupted. If God could make his message uncorrupt, why not do that in the first place?
what did prophet muhammad pbuh contradict?not even one prophet talked about trinity not even jesus you claim there is a trinity you put partners next to God while He does not need help.God did make His message uncorupt by sending prophet muhammad pbuh to clear everything that He is omnipotent and has no equals that He is unique there is no one like Him.
the 'original sin' is already forgiven by God, God is just and merciful at the same time He does not blame mankind on what adam and eve did pbuthem.He gave mankind a change to redeem themself from satan.
When is the original sin forgiven? If it is forgiven, how does a person free themselves from being "touched by Satan" at birth? If people are naturally free from sin, how are Jesus and his mother Mary more pure than any other human beings (even Muhammad)?
Doesn't the very fact of people's lives demonstrate that we do in fact have a tendency to sin, just as Adam & Eve (original sin)?
If human beings redeem themselves, why is Jesus "messiah" of anything, and how is God savior of anything?
hahaha you think you are beeing touched by satan at birth?ok.when a person becomes 15 he/she is old enough to know the difrence between bad and good and they are from then no longer sinfree and if you repent God forgives you that how He saves you do good deeds and you will be rewarded and taken away from the fire understand now?original sin whas already forgiven by God you think God is going to blame mankind on the sin of adam and eve pbut?
No, I'm saying that's what Muslims supposedly believe! So they seem to have some concept of original sin. If the above is all that's necessary, why does one need to bother joining Islam? Just repent of sin after age 15, do good deeds, and you'll avoid hellfire.
If the original sin was already forgiven, why send Jesus? I may not think God is going to do something, but the Scripture tells me otherwise. Should I go with my own opinion or with Scripture?
Jesus was sent for the Jews, but he also sent hid disciples to the Gentiles to preach HIS message in HIS name (with his authority), to baptize them in the name of the Trinity. Did you forget that? Prove to me that "the Jews corrupted the word of God." From their point of view the Muslims corrupted the word of God, by believing the Quran, a message from a false prophet (it contradicted the word of God revealed in the Bible).
It also referred to angels. Yet, the prophecies of the "Son of Man" and the Wisdom of God in the Hebrew writings seem to indicate something more than a man and even more than a mere angel. How can Jesus be the "beloved Son" of God?
But anyways, I'm done with you. Read your bible then we can have this debate again. Like I said before, Christians believe because they want to believe, they don't care if their beliefs are true or not.
Severe777 2 months ago
@Severe777 hw there u say tht?
music201035 1 week ago
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Severe777 2 months ago
@nabuchiznasar Wow. You haven't read your bible have you? There's a man in the bible (can't remember his name but you can look it up) who made a deal with god, if he would let him win the war he was about to get into he would sacrifice the first thing that he saw when he got back home, well guess what? He won the war, got back home and it was his daughter. God didn't change his mind on that one. And the reason for colored people IN THE BIBLE is to keep humanity divided.
Severe777 2 months ago
by the way jaysletteangel -
Genesis 1
The Beginning 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
overmedicat3d 4 months ago
@ severe777 - first off it's "dummy not dumby". Secondly because you rant about believers of the Bible to be ignorant does not make it true. You fill up a comment box with babble about what fools we are and yet you manage to answer the questions with rational thought. Ignorant fools talk circles of nonsesne without using fact my friend, and that is you.
overmedicat3d 4 months ago
scuse me " MANAGE NOT TO ANSWER QUESTION WITH ANY RATIONAL THOUGHT OR SCIENCE"
overmedicat3d 4 months ago
perhaps you should revisit the book of genesis and re-read, NOT the book of jubilees which is not included in the Bible
overmedicat3d 4 months ago
@jaysletteangel the bible tells us of Heaven, God created it not christians.
overmedicat3d 4 months ago
@overmedicat3d there is no such thing as christians, christ him self never taught to start a seperate movement from judaism, the name was given by pagans and idol worshippers to make the christians an easier target for slaughter and persecution..the romans never accepted the judio faith and the christian faith was even more supernatural to them as they believed in incest and domination through tyranny.
nabuchiznasar 2 months ago
global peace is not part of the plan, the anti-christ comes first
jakem2112 6 months ago
Now than we are becoming aware of the falsehood of chrstianity and judaism, MUSULIMS should do the same, so whitout the abrahamic religions we could become a big happy familly
007GoldenLion 7 months ago
The whole Judeo/Christian bible is a chock FULL of UFO activity.
Severe777 1 year ago 7
@Severe777 Are you referring to the works of Zachariah Sitchin, David Childress and Erich von Daniken?
AppalachianKnight77 3 months ago
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Severe777 2 months ago
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Severe777 2 months ago
@AppalachianKnight77 Yea, I share most of their beliefs, not all though.
Severe777 2 months ago
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@Severe777 Are you referring to the works of Zachariah Sitchin, David Childress and Erich von Daniken?
AppalachianKnight77 3 months ago
@Severe777 wht makes u say tht?
music201035 1 week ago
You're all being deceived! Wake up!!!!!!
Severe777 1 year ago
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Severe777 1 year ago
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Severe777 1 year ago
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Severe777 1 year ago
The Christian God is an alien. Top scientists of the world like Michio Kaku and Steven Hawkings said aliens could of already modified their DNA to live forever (Jehovah and friends) and could manipulate weather and cause storms by technology (Like the FLOOD). God traveling through a pillar in a rain cloud during the day, and a pillar of fire by night (UFO). Angels having sex with humans then having BABIES with them (obviously physical beings, nonphysical can't have sex with anything physical!)
Severe777 1 year ago
@Severe777 :
You are obviously ignorant and misinformed.
botanyfamily 7 months ago
@botanyfamily lol, ignorant is people who believe god would communicate his word through a book. That's ignorant.
Severe777 7 months ago
@Severe777 lol you ignorant fool God didnt communicate to us through books. The Bible is the word of God as scribed by prophets. Go back to school
overmedicat3d 4 months ago
@overmedicat3d lol you dumbass, why does god have to speak to us through prophets? Why can't he come down here and tell us HIMSELF. Like I said, bible believers are all IGNORANT FOOLS. Wake up dumby :P The bible isn't the word of "god" like the world powers WANT you to believe. Me go back to school? Hey, I'm not the RETARDED one here that would believe the bible is god's word when it's CLEARLY not.
Severe777 4 months ago 3
@Severe777 u think u r worthy? u r already blaspheming , ur merely but a speck of dust on this earth, if u wana sin and not feel guilty about it go ahead, but do not mock people who give up their own lives and freedoms to speak the truth.
nabuchiznasar 2 months ago
@nabuchiznasar lol, they gave up their lives for a lie and an agenda. If they truly wanted the truth they would do the research and start caring if their beliefs were true or not, but they don't. They just want to believe what they want to believe because they want to believe it. :)
Severe777 2 months ago
@Severe777 well thats ok, id rather die for something that has a philosophical meaning than something that gives me lives pleasures and makes me its slave..... stop watching movies and get books my friend..
nabuchiznasar 2 months ago
@nabuchiznasar Lol, read some books other then the bible :) Like some on evolution and Science. Then come back to me and we can have this conversation.
Severe777 2 months ago
@Severe777 already done, and u know what, boring!! in chestry they taught us the ancient ways of doing things which my ancestors did better than this industrial revolution shit, considering they simply primitve technology they had, i dont care what colour u r but even rich so called western european countries are not content with their status, i say bring back biblical ancient times, no phones, no comps, no tv, no guns, no boms, and no planes, som territories are neva meant 2 be explored.
nabuchiznasar 2 months ago
@nabuchiznasar lol, no phones? no computers? What about air conditioning or heaters? Stoves to cook our food? Electricity? lol, come on man. Listen to yourself. And you want to bring back biblical times? So that means you would want the world to follow all the commands in the bible too? Kill witches? Stone unruly children? Perform animal/human sacrifices? Bring back slavery? Because the bible promotes all these things. You're an immoral person.
Severe777 2 months ago
@Severe777 thats ok, im not appaled by ur judgement of my character, what human sacrifices are you talking about the slaying of izac by his father ibrahim? dont cut and paste it also said god sent an angel to stop it from happening...phones your own trusted scientists say it is dangerous radiation, airconditioners yeh thats why we have hay fever and asthma on unimagined numbers, animal sacrifices? u do eat meat and dairy dont u? black slavery? slavery is not exclusive to blacks untill cont
nabuchiznasar 2 months ago
the bible makes no sense.
its a collection of iron age gobbledeegook.
anybody who thinks its anything else is an idiot.
cuntyballs07 1 year ago
@cuntyballs07 You think what you will, so be it. But you are like a lion, and in typing this I don`t mean to insult you or cause you to vast of pain, A lion in the hot desert, with a large main. It ways you down in weakness and flies have infected your skin. Amen
Domodeath 1 year ago
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@Domodeath what??
is english not your first language????
cuntyballs07 1 year ago
@cuntyballs07 Hmm...think you're the idiot.
writingartist81 8 months ago
@writingartist81 why?
cuntyballs07 8 months ago
orthodox christianity is evil
MrBillcale 1 year ago
I don't get why Jesus in the land of the dead would be disturbing? This was Rome who knew greek myths and Hercules, Orpheus, Odyssyus, and others went to Hades and going to the underworld and doing something there was what Hero's did. Plus Socrates in the apology talked about death being good because you could talk to other great thinkers forever. None of that is considered disturbing, but if it's Jesus then it is? What sense does that make?
chaospoet 1 year ago
the bible states in the parable of lazarus and the rich man that paradise or sheol has two sides: one side for the wicked, one side for the good and a great chasm seperates them
BradKY2010 1 year ago
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I like this video. CHRIST: THE DARK YEARS by Brian D Diederich gives the best account of the Complete life of Jesus. It has a chapter called Adolescent in Asia and one called A Teenager in Tibet. It explains how the secret societies used his church to manipulate the power structure of the world. How they made the world wrong. It tells of all of his travels and ideas.
idleedsel 2 years ago
aha
spiedgar 2 years ago
before jesus no one was allowed in heaven you could have bien the best person still couldnt get in if only god took you with him
DiegoRmadrid 2 years ago
DiegoRmadrid : What bullshit.
lizazoon 2 years ago
@lizazoon its not bull shit according to the bible
DiegoRmadrid 2 years ago
@DiegoRmadrid
That doesnt make sense.
umsulieman 1 year ago
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I really liked your video and your channel. If you need any help getting this video or channel exposed I use a site called tubeviews.(net) It has really helped like 20 of my main videos get to the top in position. God Bless!
Nice!
Kaylenqzoa 2 years ago
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banned from quran...
mohamed word,,,
Keep us on the right path. The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray. (1:6-7)
Muhammad was once asked if these words pertained to Jews and Christians. His response was, "Whom else?" (Bukhari 56:662).
MIRCAVA4EVER 3 years ago
Ehrman has been called an "atheist" by a few people on the internet, but he describes himself as an agnostic. He was raised mainline (iirc) Protestant, became an evangelical later in life, and eventually embraced agnosticism due to his inability to cope with the "problem of evil" (how can there be an all good loving God and suffering?). He has no beef with people of faith, he just doesn't accept it himself.
XSC3 4 years ago
adobster,
On the opposite side, many people of faith would see most atheists as being people who have yet to be convinced of the truth of God, rather than people who "know" there's a God but choose to reject and disbelieve in him, because they're stubborn and/or wicked.
XSC3 4 years ago
If you look back in the day, even the various heretical sects declared his divinity. The best you can do is go with the adoptionists who thought Jesus was a mere man, ELEVATED TO GODHOOD at his baptism. Sure non-Christian opponents of the faith would say he was just a lunatic or a magician, but everyone who ascribed to Christianity, even if heterodox, thought he was divine. It wasn't popular to downgrade him to a human prophet until the time of Muhammad, it seems.
XSC3 4 years ago
Scholars believe that these letters contain creeds that are even earlier than Paul himself, making it plausible that Jesus was understood as divine by his first followers.
Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus may have believed himself to be divine? We have people like that today, and they are not all stark raving mad. But the idea that Constantine created his divinity is completely false.
XSC3 4 years ago
People who believe they are divine? Who are these people and isn't that blasphemous?
adobster 4 years ago
Yeah. Sai Baba is one (guy in India who wears a red robe and has a big afro). There's a list on Wikipedia (many of them I have heard of). Sure it's blasphemous, but to their followers these guys are the "real deal" (though several of them seem to be obvious conmen, others are too reclusive to be scrutinized, and a few more of them don't claim to be divine, but their followers claim them to be).
XSC3 4 years ago
"but to their followers these guys are the "real deal" (though several of them seem to be obvious conmen, others are too reclusive to be scrutinized, and a few more of them don't claim to be divine, but their followers claim them to be)."
And logically thinking, couldn't Jesus fit that image as well. I'm trying to find some way to separate Dogma from other earthly "con jobs"
adobster 4 years ago
He could, surely. We have no evidence he was a conman, and he's more successful than any of these guys (so far) but still. If you want to doubt, you're free to do so. My point is that people seem to be unable to accept that Jesus might have believed himself to be God, as if it's impossible (yet people today do this and they can't deny it).
XSC3 4 years ago
I agree with what you say with the exception that it's not a choice of doubt, rational judgement is the standard, I think its a choice of NO doubt which is more applicable. Faith is a choice, it's a willing suspension of disbelief.
adobster 4 years ago
It may be, or it may be a case of a gap in an individual's certain knowledge, which is taken on behalf of something hoped for. Or when faced with two fuzzy decisions, the person opts for one they hope to be true. It's non-rational to be sure, but it need not always be a case of somebody putting their fingers in their ears, close their eyes and go "la la la" (if that's what you were implying).
XSC3 4 years ago
You can't base your life on what you wish to be true, if so you will be unhappy and very disappointed. Your wishes have no effect on the natural world. I have always felt that faith is failure to think. The last statement is the problem with fundamentalists of all religions right now, you can't discuss things rationally if it happens to question their particular dogma.
adobster 4 years ago
Plenty of people do. It's when you have reason to suspect what you wish to be true is not, that you have to be honest with yourself and make a change or investigate further. There's a difference between making a choice on faith or hope, vs. making a choice on the opposite of what you suspect to be true. I agree with the fundie thing, that applies equally to conspiracy theorists who act just like religious fundamentalists.
XSC3 4 years ago
"It's when you have reason to suspect what you wish to be true is not, that you have to be honest with yourself and make a change or investigate further."
I think you finally understand my position about questioning the bible and all religion. However I do suspect that many people who cling to religion do so by making a choice to believe the opposite of truth.
adobster 4 years ago
That's fine, but how do you know that's what they're doing? I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt, rather than just assume they are willfully self deluded (ie: lying to themselves). You may think they're still deluded, but there's a difference between that and simply not "realizing" that they're wrong.
XSC3 4 years ago
The people who outright deny a logical, rational argument willfully remain ignorant. Not by rejecting their faith, but by simply not critically evaluating that which they have faith in.
adobster 4 years ago
Right, but you've got to admit many atheists do the same. Look at all the non-theists who are buying into this Zeitgeist crap for example. So it's a widespread problem, not just for the religious folk.
XSC3 4 years ago
True, they are just more obvious targets. Anyone who rejects reason falls victim to the same fallacy. What is the zeitgeist stuff? I have heard it referenced, but don't know what it is.
adobster 4 years ago
It's a popular internet movie that combines three conspiracy theories together: that Jesus is a fictional character (made up from a combination of pagan gods and the zodiac), the USA attacked ITSELF on 9/11, and the world bankers and their cronies are responsible for all the wars in the world and working constantly to establish a new world order police state. It's of course a paranoid mess, short on facts, big on propaganda, but a ton of people believe in it!
XSC3 4 years ago
"It's of course a paranoid mess, short on facts, big on propaganda, but a ton of people believe in it!"
Heh, sounds like this book I have heard of :P
adobster 4 years ago
Ah, well we can discuss which parts of "that book" you think are inaccurate if you like (and not just poetry).
Modern people have no such excuses. If you value truth, it doesn't matter who says it, if it's not true, you correct it (I'm sure you agree). ;)
XSC3 4 years ago
Haven't checked email in awhile...I wholeheartedly agree...thanks for the insightful, respectful discussion also!
adobster 4 years ago
No prob.
XSC3 4 years ago
Did you ever find that reference wherein Ehrman claimed to currently be a Christian believer?
I completely forgot about it, but I'm still convinced that he's an agnostic to this day.
XSC3 4 years ago
No, no I didn't mean to imply that Ehrman was still Christian, I meant that there are huge differences in copies of scripture.
adobster 4 years ago
Well it depends on what you consider to be "huge" differences.
So you concede that Ehrman is an agnostic biblical scholar? Cool.
XSC3 4 years ago
Well yes, but I never contended that he wasn't. And I consider a huge difference to be when entire phrases are not even close, ie Jesus' last words. Not mistranslation or misinterpretation.
adobster 4 years ago
I thought you said he was a Christian. I agree he WAS (as in, past tense, before any of the books of his we're talking about were written), but not in the sense of "Misquoting Jesus" "Lost Christianities" etc represent the work of a "Christian" scholar. Which phrases, according to Ehrman, are regarded as Jesus' words in the books that are "not even close"?
Refresh my memory on Jesus' last words according to Bart.
XSC3 4 years ago
I think a friend has my copy, I will be happy to quote it when it is returned. As I recall there is no mention of the traditional saying of Jesus on the cross. More pleas to die and no forgiveness mentioned.
adobster 4 years ago
adobster, unfortunately there is a very common misunderstanding of the Council of Nicea, thanks in large part to people like fiction author Dan Brown.
Constantine called the council to settle the dispute between mainstream Christianity and the followers of Arius. The first writings to declare Jesus divine date from the 1st century (writings of Paul).
XSC3 4 years ago
adobster,
So you're an agnostic too eh? Well, let's start with proving that Ehrman actually argues as you say (I don't own a copy).
XSC3 4 years ago
XSC3,
As I state below the book is called "Misquoting Jesus". As to my beliefs, the nuttier all religions get it pushes me towards Atheism. Though I'm not entirely there yet...
adobster 4 years ago
What page? I am going to Borders today and I can check their copy. I swear I read it and it restated what Ehrman himself has said numerous times... he USED to be a Christian, but now considers himself an agnostic.
XSC3 4 years ago
He did not "get there" because of "mistakes in the Bible" or because of bad Christians, but rather because the "problem of evil" weighed so heavily on his mind and he was not satisfied with the Christian explanations for it. He has nothing against Christians in general, he simply can't accept their beliefs in his heart anymore.
XSC3 4 years ago
One other thing. I don't see how the nuttiness of religions would lead someone to think atheism was therefore true. Just because no existing system has "gotten it right" doesn't mean there is no God. There may still be a God that people don't yet understand or may be beyond their understanding.
XSC3 4 years ago
This is my point exactly, what pushes people away from religion is the corruption, and suicidal/homicidal tendancies that come from it. There should still be proof of a God. The very concept of Gods is a human construct to explain origins and provide meaning to life. No one believes in the Greek Gods and Goddesses anymore. They were worshipped also. I don't base decisions on what I wish to be true. I don't deny the existence of God, there just isn't proof.
adobster 4 years ago
Well actually there is some group that tried to have a ceremony in the Parthenon ruins recently, and some neo-pagans talk about how they revere the Greek gods. But I think you got my point. All religion might be wrong and there still be a God. So you're an agnostic (or at least when it comes to any existing religion you've studied thus far).
XSC3 4 years ago
That would be a fair statement. If we are voting on who wants it all to be true, then I'm all in :P
adobster 4 years ago
adobster, I'll check Misquoting Jesus... do you have the page number? I confess I've only skimmed the book, but I swear I read explicitly in it that he said he was NO LONGER CHRISTIAN (not that he still was). He's known as an agnostic scholar. So if Ehrman CONVERTED BACK to the faith, I have yet to see any evidence of it. The book was not written THAT long ago.
XSC3 4 years ago
015voorhof,
Unlike Paul, Muhammad didn't repent of his assasinations, slavery, warmongering, and womanizing. Instead he's hailed as a prophet, while encouraging those actions for his followers! I may PM you tonight, as your time is up to give me your evidence.
XSC3 4 years ago
actualy if their husband are around them they are safer lets say a man wants to beat her in the night and she cant defend herself and by your theory she grabs a gun and acendently kills that man and she goes to jail and she comited a great sin.
015voorhof 4 years ago
015voorhof, what if your Muslim husband has been listening to his Imams and they say he can beat his wife, so he wants to beat her? She can't run away, or she'll be "honor killed."
I never said killing in self defense was a "sin." Maybe you think that... Why would the husband killing the buglar be better than the wife doing it?
XSC3 4 years ago
It is not merely "Paul and his friends," 015voorhof, that claims Christ's divinity. CHRIST HIMSELF claims this in the very pages of the Gospels. And the Messianic prophecies also strongly indicate that the Messiah as embodied in Christ will have divine qualities (not simply be a mere political leader). So throughout the NT there is teaching that Christ is MORE than a mere man, more than a prophet. He was always believed to be divine and that goes back to Jesus' own words.
XSC3 4 years ago
show me where this verse is show me where jesus claims to be God and not paul peter excetera.
015voorhof 4 years ago
I already posted the verses repeatedly. The epistle to the Hebrews, Philippians, Revelation all show the divinity. Jesus himself claims it in Matthew and John.
XSC3 4 years ago
So in short, adobster, if you distrust Jesus, then of course you won't buy his claim about the Holy Spirit, and you won't buy the claim of the Church to have that Spirit to preserve its doctrines in truth. But from the earliest point of the Christian faith you have that belief, it's not something tacked on later to try to back up the Fathers' authority.
XSC3 4 years ago
I think the Church put words into Jesus's mouth. Their probably was a guy named Jesus that had a good message. I can trust the essence of Jesus' message without buying into the Holy Spirit claim of the Church. The overall themes are fine, its when you get to the fine print that I have differences with the Church.
adobster 4 years ago
adobster, how do you know what things the Church "put in Jesus' mouth"?
Show me how you would determine that something Jesus said he didn't say. What differences do you have with the church that you base on this?
XSC3 4 years ago
XSC3,
Reality is what I base it on, according to biblical scholar Bart Ehrman, the famous last words of Jesus are not what he actually said. The original words are in the Greek Codex Sinaiticus (sp?). Also according to Ehrman, the older bible's don't mention Jesus divinity. Their lies aren't even consistent from version to version, no matter what Jesus really DID SAY.
It's sad we really don't know Gods' real words.
PS - I don't think they are in the Qu'ran either, none of them have it right.
adobster 4 years ago
Show me the Ehrman quotes where he alleges that please. Jesus' divinity IS mentioned in the earliest Christian texts (the Pauline letters).
What are the alternate last words of Jesus that are not in modern Bibles? How would Ehrman know that Codex Sinaiticus is the real deal? (maybe Jesus' last words are lost? maybe he didn't have any last words?). Surely he doesn't make that argument.
XSC3 4 years ago
The book is "Misquoting Jesus" and provides facts and exact verses. Codex Sinaiticus is the oldest version of the Bible. It is more of a crying out to God to take the pain away from him. Not the pious statements widely believed.
adobster 4 years ago
Psalm 22 was written long before the NT. Jesus is simply quoting from it. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but I'll check the page numbers if you wish.
Codex Sinaiticus is not the oldest bible. The DSS are much older. C.S. is simply the oldest COMPLETE Christian bible. There are fragments and incomplete ones that are older.
XSC3 4 years ago
XSC3,
"Jesus' divinity IS mentioned in the earliest Christian texts (the Pauline letters)."
Would this be coming from the Bible itself? Is it corroborated by an outside source? In all seriousness, if Jesus was considered Divine from day one, then why did Constatine (after the Council of Nicea) have to make a decree announcing his Divinity? Again, I want to be respectful to your beliefs, but there needs to be evidence.
adobster 4 years ago
My point is that the earliest texts about Jesus refer to him as both divine and human. There's no earlier text describing him as a mere man or a myth.
Nicea didn't declare Christ's divinity. Both sides in the conflict agreed he was divine. The debate was over whether he was equal to God the Father (Athanasius) or a lesser created God (Arius). Plus the divinity of Christ was taught by the Church fathers from the 1st century all the way up to the years before Constantine came to power.
XSC3 4 years ago
Now I see what you're saying 015voorhof, but you're still wrong...
For your argument to work, we've had to assume that there are 4 times more women of marriagable status as there are men of marriageable status (who are not yet married) in every country in the entire world. Plus we'd assume that all of those people MUST get married. Then and only then would you run into some kind of "shortage" and suddenly the Islamic directive would "make sense." It's still unjust towards women though.
XSC3 4 years ago
And what about women who have sex drives more than one man? They are forced to live unfulfilled. So Islam doesn't solve their "problem" either.
Rather, insist on an equal rule for all... one spouse, that's it. That's how God created Adam & Eve, and that's what Christianity upholds (both Jesus and Paul). If some Christians don't obey it, that doesn't mean the rule is wrong.
XSC3 4 years ago
015voorhof, you act as if a man having four wives is justice. What if those 4 women can't satisfy his lust? Have sex with his slaves. What if he isn't allowed slaves or his slaves don't satisfy him? Should he swap out his women for more? Muhammad himself had 11 wives! So Islam really doesn't solve the "problem" of insatiable human lust and weakness in commitment.
XSC3 4 years ago
how do you see justice in this????????????jesus deeing for your sin beeing tortured on the cross for humanity you think God is cruel?He that only has to say BE and it IS and chooses jesus to get tortured for mankind sins?God is just and merciful at the same time this sacrifice is untrue.trinity is false God is not in need of partners to help Him out.not even one prophet put partners next to God the followers did.mozes broke then idols and then christianity comes with another idol jesus.
015voorhof 4 years ago
015voorhof, you believe in everlasting hellfire right (as all Muslims do)? So do you think God is cruel?
God willingly suffering for the sins of humankind is not cruelty, it is generosity and love. "No greater love has a man than this to lay down his life for his friends." Why is this sacrifice untrue?
XSC3 4 years ago
Hell is for those who rejected God and followed satan that is their punishment they are warned and they chosen to iqnore it.
its untrue because God said it in the Quran and because its not just why create jesus just for the purpose to be tortured and die for something he did not do while God the All mighty only has to say be and it is why is this sacrifice needed?tell me.
015voorhof 4 years ago
015voorhof, you fail to see the problem... you say Jesus dying willingly as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind whom he loves is "unjust" but have no problem believing people who "rejected God" (by not being Muslim) will be tortured in hell for all eternity.
Islam accepts the idea of "substitutionary atonement." Mankind is worthy of destruction, but Jesus took their sin upon himself to show God's forgiveness. He didn't have to do it, but he wanted to.
XSC3 4 years ago
so you say that people that dont believe in christ go to heaven while the bible says otherwise?are you an christian?you think GOD not just a person BUT GOD is going to ask JESUS to DIE for MANKIND SINS GOD said He is JUST and if He does that then He is NOT JUST contradicting his words and saying that He is a LIAR.God warn every single human on this planet that they will go to hell if they reject every single prophet send by God said so if you reject that you reject God.
015voorhof 4 years ago
015vorhof, so you'd rather everyone died and went to hell? Okay. If you're saying doing good deeds gets you to heaven, then how do you explain the Quran saying that people who worship Jesus or don't accept Islam are going to burn forever? (and even recommends killing them sometimes) If God warned everyone, why do you say the prophets were lost and corrupted? You can't blame somebody for not knowing then, can you?
XSC3 4 years ago
And you and I both know that Islam teaches that mankind suffered for the sin of Adam & Eve. So people do in fact suffer for the sins of others. But when they do so willingly, out of love, for a greater outcome, is that not a sacrifice of atonement, and one pleasing to God? Jesus upholds the justice of God, and yet shows his mercy, reconciliation, and so forth. His blood is more precious than all the goats, bulls, rams, and other animals that you could possibly offer.
XSC3 4 years ago
The Trinity is taught through implication in both the OT and the NT and by the early Christians. Jesus taught his own divinity as did the early Christians. Who are you to say it's false? On the contrary, the prophets taught that God was multiple (multiple persons, one true God). Idols are false gods, but there is one true God in multiple persons. Jesus is no idol, because he IS God in the flesh. If he were a mere man simply claiming to be god, then yes, he would be an "idol."
XSC3 4 years ago
Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first
015voorhof 4 years ago
>>>Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, .....
All those who are modest will opt for the first>>>
That makes no sense at all. There are plenty of unmarried men and women in the USA. And if you switch it and say a man marrying a married woman, why doesn't that "work"?
XSC3 4 years ago
Modesty has nothing to do with it. Show me where it has EVER happened that there was such a shortage of men that women had no choice but to marry men who were already married, or else "become public property" (what does that mean?!). Last I checked, women were not chattel everywhere like they were in ancient times...
XSC3 4 years ago
Besides, where is the justice in demanding that Muslims "fight" the Christians and Jews until they pay a special "tax" or convert to Islam? Or that men can marry up to four women (and Muhammad gets to marry 11 women) and have sex with slaves, BUT women can only have one husband, period. You may disagree with it, but that is taught in the Quran as well. So please don't accuse Christianity of "injustice" hypocritically,015voorhof.
XSC3 4 years ago
Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical. Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in USA who would not be able to get husbands
015voorhof 4 years ago
Not practical? Nonsense. One husband/one wife (or else celibacy) is how God intended it.
Not everyone needs to get married, in fact many should not! People can always marry folks from another country. We have thousands of immigrants coming over every day. What a silly argument. Plus, your logic doesn't help the double standard for 1 man = 4 wives but 1 woman = 1 husband. By marrying 4 wives, that man is depriving other men of wives.
XSC3 4 years ago
Not everyone gets married (and believe it or not, it is not necessarily because they just want to sleep around... as we both know many married people don't keep their vows either). Nor SHOULD everyone get married. Jesus taught it was good NOT to marry if one is given this gift, as he and some of his followers had. This applies to men as well as women.
XSC3 4 years ago
marriege is not good?having sex be4 marriege is good while God says is not you acuse every single person on this planet that they cheat around
015voorhof 4 years ago
No. Fornication is condemned by Jesus and Paul in the NT. Celibacy for christians means not only not getting married, it means NO SEX, PERIOD. For Jesus and Paul, total chastity is the best. Second best is faithful marriage to one opposite gender spouse. Everything else is sin.
XSC3 4 years ago
It's not that marriage is BAD, it's that according to Christianity, celibacy (no marriage, and complete chastity) is a BETTER state to live in. Jesus and Paul both taught this. You can also read St. Augustine's "On the Good of Marriage." Just because people cheat (and they shouldn't) doesn't mean marriage is bad. But if people plan to cheat, they should not marry. But we're all better off if people are monogamous or refrain from sex.
XSC3 4 years ago
Oh, and 015voorhof, polygamy is not the solution to "people who want to cheat" because it only benefits men who are lustful (no help for lustful women) and can't stick to one partner. Plus where are the limits? You'll end up with someone like King Solomon with hundreds of wives, or like that King in "1001 Arabian Nights."
XSC3 4 years ago
If atonement is not necessary, then you should stop doing good deeds, stop doing hajj for the dead, stop sacrificing goats, and stop praying for the dead. Those are acts of atonement in Islam.
XSC3 4 years ago
But on what grounds do you have to say (without resorting to "well I know the Quran must be true" or "my Imam told me so") that the Bible is corrupt, 015voorhof?
XSC3 4 years ago
All of the prophets said there is one God you must obay Him and only Him.and then came paul exc claiming jesus is God.thats why the Quran is here to clear this out and if prophet muhammad pbuh whas false none of his prophecies would come true and if he preached evil none of the opressed ones would follow him but they did you know why?because he preached the truth and peace.if there whas no trinity then the bible would contradict itself they found out so they came up with trinity.
015voorhof 4 years ago
But 015voorhof, you haven't demonstrated that the Bible is corrupt... you only assume it is because that is what the Quran teaches you and the Quran contradicts the earlier revelation. You believe the Trinity is false, so if the Bible teaches it, the Bible cannot be true. Some of your fellows are claiming the Bible does not support the Trinity, but I say it does.
XSC3 4 years ago
Your charge that no one would join a false religion is false, because you believe that the Christians and Jews are false, and yet have millions (billions in the case of Christianity, even more than Islam) of followers, throughout history, and yes, many "oppressed ones" too! These also preach truth and peace. Paul did not come inventing doctrine, but was affirming what he was given from the apostles and Christ.
XSC3 4 years ago
christians are still the people of the book but they are devieved bu the ones who corupted it they are lost.the jews religion used to be true and got corupted same goes for the bible but some are intact.christ never said he is God.
015voorhof 4 years ago
015voorhof, you keep stating this and I realize it's Muslim belief, but what evidence do you have for it? Why was God unable to keep Christianity and Judaism from "becoming corrupt" but was able to keep Islam pure? Why not just do that for the other religions? Christ said repeatedly that he was God in the NT, as I stated already.
XSC3 4 years ago
why did God not stop adam and eve eatin from that tree?same reaason why He did not stop the coruption God already told them what would hapend if they do corupt the book but they choose to do so jesus whas a miracle of God then yet disobay Him.
015voorhof 4 years ago
But 015voorhof, you contradict yourself, because you said God stopped the Quran from becoming corrupt and Muhammad's message from being lost. That is a contradiction then in Islam, because it doesn't answer why God was powerless to stop the other 124,000 prophets from being corrupted and forgotten.
You disobey Jesus for not obeying his teachings, and instead saying his message is "corrupt" and listening instead to what some guy six centuries later said about him. See how that sounds?
XSC3 4 years ago
124,000?hahahahahhahahahaha who the hell said there where 124,ooo prophets hahah there where only 25 prophet send and 4 with books of God.jesus never claimed to be God but then an ex serial killer paul came along after jesus leaving and claimed jesus to be God an ex bounty hunter that killed christians for money the prophecies of prophet muhammad pbuh came true and some have to come.God send 25 prophets with miracles some beliefed some did not.but send me a message in my inbox much more room.
015voorhof 4 years ago
Several Muslims have used the figure "124,000" saying that there are that many prophets sent by Allah (even though we don't know most of their names). If there are only 25, that still doesn't answer why God allowed their messages to be lost and corrupted, but somehow decided to make Muhammad's uncorruptable in the 7th century.
XSC3 4 years ago
Besides, the man in Islam gets to have sex with his slaves. Instead, it should be monogamy, or else women get to have 4 husbands and have sex with THEIR slaves. It's only fair.
Who corrupted it? By your logic they all did. Otherwise Christians and Jews don't have to convert and can go to heaven, thank you very much. If the bible is intact, why do you say it is corrupt? Show me the "real bible" if you can.. Christ said repeatedly that he is God, that's why he was executed!
XSC3 4 years ago
And Christians and Jews also assert the fulfillment of prophecy in their texts. What new prophecies did Muhammad make that came true, 015voorhof?
XSC3 4 years ago
Why couldn't all the testimonials of Jesus and early Christianity be included? Wouldn't any information regarding the life of Jesus be valuable?
adobster 4 years ago
Not if it's inaccurate. Why would you want to include something written 200 years after Jesus' death that totally distorts his message, claiming to be written by an apostle (but centuries after that apostle's death and contradicting what the other apostles wrote)?
XSC3 4 years ago
It's not the word of God that I have problem's with. I don't trust the Church fathers that determined what was truth and what wasn't
adobster 4 years ago
So you don't trust the apostles either, I take it? Christians believe Jesus' spirit and the Holy Spirit remained with the church to preserve the truth.
XSC3 4 years ago
I don't think the current Church necessarily teach what the Apostles wrote. Leaving the Spirit with the Church sounds like a contrivance by human Church leaders. If I were going to secure a position of power, I would say that God left me in charge...
adobster 4 years ago
adobster, be that as it may, you claimed the Bible had been altered, so it would be nice if you could demonstrate this. You can read the Bible right now and it contains the earliest apostolic writings. Basically you're demanding that God personally appear and remain with each person their entire life, impressing them with miracles. You can't have a religion...
XSC3 4 years ago
What do you think the apostles wrote if not what Christians teach? The Spirit staying with the Church is from Jesus' own words. If you don't trust those words, what words of Jesus could you trust? You have no idea, you're just guessing they might be wrong, adobster.
XSC3 4 years ago
But human beings don't live forever. Basically he'd have to just sit there forever on earth spending every waking moment answering all the questions of everyone on earth... Maybe get angels to stand around answering questions all day long? Instead, he had people write it down and preach it.
XSC3 4 years ago
What else does God do? Play golf? Why can't he be here on Earth in fellowship with his favorite creation?
adobster 4 years ago
Sorry, but take it or leave it, unless you run across someone who can promise you daily mystical experience to "prove" that God exists and you should worship God.
God is in fellowship with God's creation, that's what religion is all about. Besides, if these things happened to you, you could always say it was a hallucination, unless you want God to take away your free will or something.
XSC3 4 years ago
That is the essence of my stance, that faith is not consistent. If you have it then you don't need facts, but if you don't tough there aren't any facts. I think God is powerful enough to be able to provide facts. And if He does exist, then faith is irrelevant because there should be proof. If He doesn't, faith is still irrelevant because He doesn't exist.
adobster 4 years ago
all of prophet muhammad pbuh prophecies came true and couple still have to come you can check for yourself is to many to write down.
015voorhof 4 years ago
Show me these "prophecies" of Muhammad that came true. If a few are "still to come" how can you say they were "all come true"? You should say "some of them have come true" which is what Jews and Christians would also say about the prophecies in their bible.
XSC3 4 years ago
all of his prophecies came true and some have yet to come if 5 prophecies came true why wont the others?
015voorhof 4 years ago
i wil send you.
015voorhof 4 years ago
i wil send you.
015voorhof 4 years ago
Okay, yes please do send me these alleged prophecies of Muhammad and the proof that they've come true.
And while you're at it, show me why I can't say the same thing about Judaism and/or Christian prophecies...
XSC3 4 years ago
So how could we then say that what Muhammad preached was "good" if it contradicted what God had revealed? "Abrogated"? Then you can argue there is another prophet after Muhammad, to abrogate the previous message, which was corrupted. If God could make his message uncorrupt, why not do that in the first place?
XSC3 4 years ago
what did prophet muhammad pbuh contradict?not even one prophet talked about trinity not even jesus you claim there is a trinity you put partners next to God while He does not need help.God did make His message uncorupt by sending prophet muhammad pbuh to clear everything that He is omnipotent and has no equals that He is unique there is no one like Him.
015voorhof 4 years ago
the 'original sin' is already forgiven by God, God is just and merciful at the same time He does not blame mankind on what adam and eve did pbuthem.He gave mankind a change to redeem themself from satan.
015voorhof 4 years ago
When is the original sin forgiven? If it is forgiven, how does a person free themselves from being "touched by Satan" at birth? If people are naturally free from sin, how are Jesus and his mother Mary more pure than any other human beings (even Muhammad)?
Doesn't the very fact of people's lives demonstrate that we do in fact have a tendency to sin, just as Adam & Eve (original sin)?
If human beings redeem themselves, why is Jesus "messiah" of anything, and how is God savior of anything?
XSC3 4 years ago
hahaha you think you are beeing touched by satan at birth?ok.when a person becomes 15 he/she is old enough to know the difrence between bad and good and they are from then no longer sinfree and if you repent God forgives you that how He saves you do good deeds and you will be rewarded and taken away from the fire understand now?original sin whas already forgiven by God you think God is going to blame mankind on the sin of adam and eve pbut?
015voorhof 4 years ago
No, I'm saying that's what Muslims supposedly believe! So they seem to have some concept of original sin. If the above is all that's necessary, why does one need to bother joining Islam? Just repent of sin after age 15, do good deeds, and you'll avoid hellfire.
If the original sin was already forgiven, why send Jesus? I may not think God is going to do something, but the Scripture tells me otherwise. Should I go with my own opinion or with Scripture?
XSC3 4 years ago
jesus whas send for the jews they corupted the word of God.
015voorhof 4 years ago
Jesus was sent for the Jews, but he also sent hid disciples to the Gentiles to preach HIS message in HIS name (with his authority), to baptize them in the name of the Trinity. Did you forget that? Prove to me that "the Jews corrupted the word of God." From their point of view the Muslims corrupted the word of God, by believing the Quran, a message from a false prophet (it contradicted the word of God revealed in the Bible).
XSC3 4 years ago
that should be "his" disciples... sorry
XSC3 4 years ago
015voorhof
>>>
It also referred to angels. Yet, the prophecies of the "Son of Man" and the Wisdom of God in the Hebrew writings seem to indicate something more than a man and even more than a mere angel. How can Jesus be the "beloved Son" of God?
XSC3 4 years ago