N.T. Wright on Debate about Homosexuality 4

[opivysoldier]

you read the book, the words of another and call it truth, never to speaking for ones self because you have no idea of what its to know ones self come to terms with fear. fear of difference fear of lost and death. stop crucifying the messengers and crucify your ego take the road less traveled take the road or enlightenment the multiverse speaks not in the name of christians or muslims or any other as but as one we are all one the things you judge people for are just a reflection of false self

[4eversmiling1]

It's not that complex of an issue. Sin is a Sin. Pretty simple. It's just as wrong as lying, stealing, murdering. And whoever says, "I was born with this." I totally agree!! We have ALL been born with a sinful nature. But, that does not make sinning ok, or right.

[chukmaty]

NT Wright is brilliant. Paul was certainly aware of the sexual behavior of the Corinthian Church for example, and he accordingly discusses their acceptance of bisexuality and of multiple partners. It broke the hearts of the Christians in Corinth as Paul's condemnation of their behavior certainly seemed overwhelming. He softened his tone in the second epistle to that city, but he did not soften his belief.

[434missjames]

Ok the gay issue should never even be an issue. There should be no debate. Leave gay people alone. It is beyond rediculous. Focusing on inhumane treatment of people in the world should be what is focused on. Debate on how to help these people.

[fromthesestones]

"When you don't have reason you just collapse into a sub-human morass of non-engagement"

I'm plagiarizing that like crazy the first chance I get.

[flizzleFlopper]

Bishop Wright gives a great argument, and I personally feel his frustration over a lack of real discussion--about a great many topics.

But in my experience people who don't reach their beliefs through reason and logic tend not to defend their beliefs with the same.

If you build a belief on emotion then you'll be emotional when you defend it...

[temporaldisplacement]

All societys should be as rational as Hindu society is towards homosexuality.

That would be nice.

[jbrack95]

good reformed people?.. I thought this was a PCUSA church. I think n.t means reformational not reformed.

[bearnurse1]

I've been to a PCUSA church and they definitely consider themselves part of the Reformed movement. They are members of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches

[tmstark]

Because "heaven" is to be married to "earth," that means homosexuality is immoral? What kind of person finds this logic reasonable?

[MarkHolgate]

he's not condemning it. It is a nuanced argument based on jesus statement "a man and a woman shall be joined together and they shall become one flesh". This is given to us as the basic picture of marriage/sex (the two are synonymous) Thus sex is sacred, marriage is sacred, and the parties are to be ... male and female. Simple. Any deviation from that and society becomes instable. Mind you, I think basic infidelity and lack of commitment are our culture's major sexual problems. Peace.

[fromthesestones]

@MarkHolgate -- Give a specific example of a society that has become unstable as a direct result of it's engagement in and/or it's acceptance of homosexual behavior, connecting this instability, if you can, directly with homosexuality.

Also can you give examples of other reasons societies have become unstable, and just exactly what is meant by the phrase "society becomes unstable"?

If you can't then you are just repeating a platitude.

[chukmaty]

Some moral questions "in the church" which is the body of Christ wedding heaven to earth, are decided through God's will. Often these moral proclamation are not conformed to our inborn inclinations or inclination which are evolved traits.

As CS Lewis said, I paraphrase, knowing Christ is the next step in our evolution. It stands to reason that this "next step" will conflict with previous steps which have taken place in nature.

[Vasiel44]

The Bible, and God, in my experience (and I'm gay) is very much like a parent. One of my dear friends explained it like this:

When a child goes after say, a hot coffee cup, the parent will tell them warn them not to touch it. If the child persists and gets burned, then the parent will often discipline them.... this does not mean to say that the parent hates the child, just the action.

We all have to be responsible to ourselves, to the people around us, and to God of our actions and reactions.

[Ephilei]

All the people commenting on this video need to take Wright's words to heart. Learn. Listen. Stop shouting.

[amyhsk]

I agree!!

[cheesecornandpickles]

I'm sorry, but there is no case or argument in the Bible that says Paul was a homosexual

[mowriter]

Paul advocated against marrying. He also spoke of an unnamed "thorn in his side" that plagued him his whole life and never went away.

NOT PROOF. But something that COULD certainly apply to homosexuality.

[mooglecharmed]

He was against marriage only to the Corinthians and only if they were single at the time because tribulations.

[mooglecharmed]

Correct.

[nubbs]

read Mark 7: 20-23. why, when jesus is quoting OT sex laws mentioning homosexuality, does he specifically ignore it, not mention it?

as for paul, i said watch "spong on paul" on utube

"revulsion" is never used in the passages you cite

homosexuality is no different than ANY extra or pre martial sex. masturbation, according to you, would also be a revulsion. pre/extra marital sex are all, according to you, also "revulsions"

why the hand up on sex. its so unhealthy

all you need is love

[nubbs]

can you tell me what jesus said about homosexuality.?

funny how jesus says nothing about it in Mark 7: 20-23, despite that fact that the torah, which jesus was very familiar with, specifically mentions homosexuality in the same list while jesus specifically does not mention it.

search youtube for /watch?v=563jJbf9DKY "Spong on Paul"

the apostle paul was himself a homosexual, most likely. but in much the same way as wright discusses here, paul may not have acted out on these urges

[jgrig2]

you cannot reason together when two different world views collide in debate. It is all a matter of presuppositions.

[alexeirayu]

The scripture is not homophobic, rather, it is against the sin and evil, rather than simply "lets' do away with these people" kind of thing.

[iyquc]

The volume level is extremely low for me....

[tombrisson]

Any bishop who can wear a shirt like this has my immediate respect... I thought these guys had closets full of purple cassocks and funny hats! I love Bishop Wright.

[tldhthompson]

As usual, Bishop Wright is brilliant, Christocentric and speaks as one who comes forth from the new into the old to offer the good news. :)