Anybody who would choose to work construction w/ out being in a union is a fuckin idiot! But hey go ahead and work your ass off for half my wage, uneducated, and w/ no retirement other than social security. When your broke down pissing on yourself while Ma is it the kitchen cookin up some fiddles, I'll be collecting about $5000 a month from my pension and another $1500-$2000 from social, plus that fat ass annuity check from my union trust fund. If u can argue against that then you are probably
Jesus is anti-union too. Lucifer created the first union with his group of fallen angels. Jesus spoke of pay and how a employer has the right to do what he does when he pays his employees. The parable of the Vineyard in Matthew 20. Unions would have crucified Jesus themselves for going along with management.
There is freedom of speech, so here is some for you! Shut the fuck up, you fucking ass crack, your just jealous that your not in a union! So go back to work (that's if you have a job) and let your employer do what ever to you. Pay you nothing, and be able to harass you all they want with know one backing you up. So think before you freedom of speech! Unions are the reason you have a weekend, vacation time, holidays off, and able to make a decent living in this country! Research man!
@mets750 Lets see...how many union "workers" does it take to replace a light bulb? One to get a ladder, another to make sure its level, another to inspect the wiring, another to remove the old bulb, another to dispose of the old bulb, another to inspect the new bulb...did I make my point yet? Unions (Socialists) are a waste of money and are not American, its a socialist idea that came from Germany and Moscow....Research man!
Ok, you're a soldier and you're from TexASS. Don't you have a gun? When a union tard rams you, you pull a Joe Horn on them and send them to the hell from whence they came.
I live in Michigan where there quite a few shops. I'd say half the jobs I had were union, the other half non. While there are some great non union places to work, if the owners and management aren't pricks, overwhelmingly non union jobs are less safe, less pay, and are run with a "fuck you" attitude towards the employee. Last non union job I was at was full of people in power that were family and friends of the owner who got treated like god and the regular workers were treated like shit.
If you look back on the history of GM, the employees there made about the same percentage above minimum wage all the way through as they did 5 years ago. At times they actually made MORE money per hour compared to cost of living and the minimum wage than they did 5 years ago. And yet GM was profitable as hell. What ruined GM was the rising cost of health care along with the refusal of the powers that be there to make well built, efficient cars. They didn't want the cars well build to sell more..
Quite the contrary. I voted for Obama as I didn't want a war mongering Alzheimer's patient as president.
I also think W should be on trial for war crimes. However I don't believe in manipulating the free market just so you can have a job bank.
I believe in the free market - no tariffs no nothing. When GM builds something worth buying I'll do exactly that. Until then, have you seen the new MDX?
I don't think you know how far the importance of U.S. auto makers goes. Do you know that Ford and Gm did in the past and have the ability in the future to produce military vehicles and other things in time of emergency war? They did it in WW 2 and said they would keep that part of their operations for the government if needed. Now imagine if there were no American car companies. Do you think Germna, Japanese or Korean auto companies will produce anything military for us? Hell no...
I am aware of that. I am also aware WW2 was completely unnecessary. However the above facts have nothing to do with this discussion. When I make a decision to buy a product, whether its a car, blu ray player or laptop; I will choose the one that fits my needs, has the best reputation and has a price that fits my budget. Hence, I drive an Acura, play blu rays on a Sony and use two Macbooks.
All the bullshit you spewed above has nothing to do with my purchasing decision.
WW2 unnecessarily? WTF? My Grandmother and GrandFather Were in the Army and I always remember my Grandfather in his recliner chair refer to WW2 as the last "Glorified War" He said it was the only time in his life where a military conflict was absolutely necessarily and everyone agreed on that and didn't bitch or call the president a "warmonger"
I bet you don't think your mothers/grandmothers social security check was necessary either. If dare say yes I hope DIE SLOWLY
@Britton001 i know this is an old comment, but the post reminds me of my union brothers who said they were never gonna by "chinese made shit at Walmart". Or even go into walmart for that matter. Well when walmart came to town, guess who i saw buying "chinese made shit at Walmart"?? none other than MANY of my union brothers, lmao.m Talk is cheap
yeah and a recession I'm so sick of unions thou I don't believe the UAW is worth shit I thinks it's arrogant to blame a union company for going bankrupt during a recession. Yeah i know Toyota didn't go bankrupt but the people who balance the company budgets aren't in a union.
Also, while I've worked in shops here all my life, I've never worked for GM. Throughout the 90's I was making 15-17 dollars an hour at other union shops. But I still loved having other people making GM wages. Why? Because they took all that money and spend it at the small businesses you seem to care about so much. Come ot Michigan and ask ANY small business in Detroit, Flint or pretty much any town that has an auto plant and they'll tell you they LOVED union money. But most are closed now.
I'd as soon smack a union peon in his face as I would cross the street. These cowards know better than to mess with me as one on one they are COWARDS and they know it. I tell to get to stepping and they ALWAYS move out of my way
You're the kind of kid who thinks because he reads a Flas Gordon comic book, he's an astronaut. What kind of experience do you have as far as working in the construction field? (or as far as supporting a family) I'm betting ZERO. The only money you earn is by taking out the garbage and collecting your allowance.
What do you think PLAs are? Do you understand how a bid process works? I have yet to see ONE nonunion contractor who pays close to Scale. What kind of training does a typical nonunion worker get?
Can't answer can you? I'll come back when you grow up little boy. It seems that one cannot defend oneself so he procceeds to change the topic.
And you better watch out for that secret wage supressing elite.
I know what PLAs are and apparently you do not. "Scale"? Only the market can calculate wages and prices, otherwise communism would have been a great success. As far as training is concerned, look at the studies I cited about PLAs. Look at the worker safety element as well.
The results of the work is what matters and is the best proof of training.
When comparing projects with and without union-only PLAs, there is no evidence of superior work on PLA projects. Union-only PLA projects, such as Bostons Big Dig, demonstrate that a union-only PLA cant substitute for quality control management.
Sorry - any support of Communism is strictly forbidden in our Constitution. You couldn't be more wrong about safety. Nonunion contractors try to get by with as little safety equipment as possible. I see it regularly. They don't want to pay their workers what they're worth and they certainly don't want to waste any money on quality safety equipment. Unions brought about OSHA. As a matter of fact, my contractor PAID me to go through the OSHA 40.
Your friend OSHA has statistics that show that union workers historically have a higher rate of fatalities than nonunion workers. Facts are a bitch aren't they?
You are a perfect example of a union man. Arrogant, stupid and greedy. You guys really think the world of yourselves. You guys are really just a bunch of scumbags. You think you are entitled to things when in reality you are the genetic mistakes. Look at how I took you to school on the other thread. The only thing you can do is either lie or become proud because you found one report about one topic that you have some grounds to argue.
It's easy to copy and paste like you do. (without having any idea what the reality is) I see you're having another one of your childish hissy fits.
Greed is exactly why we need Unions. If I was greedy, I wouldn't be putting as much time as I do to look out for Working Families. I'm not the one trying to get rich. Since you don't have to pay your own bills, it's easy to take your position. DO YOU STILL LIVE AT HOME WITH MOMMY AND DADDY?
I'm the arrogant one? LMFAO Well kid, I'll be flying to D.C. to represent my Union (not in a private jet or even 1st class) in mid May while you're watching Dora the Explorer at your parents' house. Who cares about me? Well, who cares about a kid with NO work experience talking about what's best for Working Families? You really are a piece of work!
You probably meant to say that you were going to D.C. with a suitcase full of cash to bribe politicians. That's the only way they will listen to a guy from Milwaukee. When they think of Milwaukee they think of BEER. LOL! That's just like unions to get the government involved in violating other's property rights.
Why do you capitalize "Working Families"? What a complex.
Since you don't work, you have no clue why I capitalize Working Families. I'm trying to help kids like you so that they only need to have ONE paper route instead of two in order to be able to play World of Warcraft on their parents' computer.
But to entertain your idea, if I didn't have a job around here it would probably be because of the unions that control Albany and shut business out of the state with high taxes or lack of incentives.
See the Manhattan Institute report, 'Albany Inc.: The Special-Interest Conglomerate that Runs New York.'
I do copy and paste from sources I CITE. It's called doing your homework instead of rambling prejudice. I post relevent excerpts because you won't read.
Are you kidding? Public sector unions drive up the cost of to the state big time. Remember that is where the growth in the union movement is today. From higher pay to health care to pensions, they do a pretty good job of sticking it to the taxpayer. Let's not forget public projects. You are a fucking lunkhead.
Yeah, again that's why the State of WI used $80,000 from the MILLIONS saved due to a Union workforce to thank Union workers for a job well done. Look at the majority of peoples' 401k accounts. Our pension is over %80 funded and in GREAT shape. Just imagine where those people would be today if the Republican'ts got their way and privatized social security. (the nonunion's pension plan) LMFAO Kid, you'll never get a clue!
Historical data from OSHA gives a larger data set and shows evidence against the claim that unions have a better record. Doing Inspection database requests on their awful website doesn't seem to allow searching for Union Status even though it is recorded.
2004 research conducted by Clemson University of construction industry fatalities between 1994 and 2002 concluded that the nonunion workers experienced 12.8 percent less fatalities per 100,000 workers than union workers.
Well, that goes against Princeton's 2005 study that shows a 27% difference per 100,000 workers as far as fatalities. Also, OSHA's latest (2008) report shows that nonunion companies are 78% less compliant with the 1926 OSHA regs and as far as injuries, are more prone (34%) to having accidents.
All I know from OSHA is it's Analysis of Construction Fatalities database for 1985-89 found that said `the distribution of fatalities among union and nonunion work sites is similar to the composition of the construction work force in terms of union and nonunion workers.'
A nationwide study in 1995 by Charles Culver, a former OSHA official, revealed that on-the-job fatalities were significantly lower in union-free construction than in comparable unionized construction in every year from 1985 through 1993.
The study from 1985-1993 showed a lower fatality rate for non-union workers and the study from 1994 to 2002 showed the same. That's a good chunck of time.
Maybe I missed it, but, tell me again how nonunion workers are better than Union workers. You're already slipping into obscure subjects and throwing hissy fits.
Because union workers are lazy and greedy which I already said. Non-union workers have more incentives to work hard and can be fired more easily. They also can reduce the price of projects. In some cases, wages are too low for very good workers in the union and it keeps such people from working harder. Non-union workers are better because they don't gain at the expense of others.
What incentives do they have if they can be fired so easily, and, won't ever get paid what they're worth? If wages affect the price of a job, how come Union contractors win the majority of bids? What do you know about hard work if you still live at home? You can't be for real....
You will get paid in accordance with how you perform. If you are valuable enough, you can exceed a set union wage. People who are lazy and do shoddy work can be fired.
Unions win bids because they're the only ones allowed to bid in many cases such as with union-only PLAs. As for your assertion elsewhere, I would prefer to discover your sourcing since you are a liar. The studies that I see all show that unions drive up the cost of projects.
Well, do you live at home with mommy and daddy? You come across as a high school kid who watches too much Fox news. You obviously have never had to support a family and know nothing about hard work. I'd LOVE to see you try to do what I do for a living and accuse our Union of being lazy. Stay in school kid, maybe you'll get a head start on head greeter at Wal-Mart.
Union-only PLAs limit access to training. PLAs prohibit apprentices who are not enrolled in a union program from working and learning on-the-job. Penalizing workers who participate in training programs alternative to union programs is unfair and has contributed to the shortage of skilled workers in the construction industry.
You think Unions (who pay for training the apprentices) should allow nonunion workers to take part in their training? (that has been going on for over 100 years)
Most construction companies that are not signatory to a union don't bid on projects subject to a union-only PLA. By submitting a bid and agreeing to the terms of a union-only PLA, contractors have to relinquish management of their own workforce to a third-party (the unions) by terminating their employees or in some circumstances, forcing their workers to go to the union hall for a worksite referral with no guarantee that their workers will be assigned back to their original employer.
I was talking about the myriad of jobs that don't have a PLA. Why is it that Union contractors get most of those bids? FYI-NObody is forced to go through a Union hall. Companies do not have to reliquish any management to any Union. Once again, you're pulling info out of your ass. The problem is - you don't have ANY firsthand knowledge of what goes on.
In his analysis of PLAs, Dr. Herbert Northrup concludes, "To exclude or to limit the right of open-shop contractors, who have won 75-80 percent of the national construction dollar spent, from the opportunity to bid on public financed construction, and thus to limit or to eliminate their participation in construction paid for by taxpayers unless they are willing to work as if they were unionized contractors is palpably both unfair and contrary to sound public policy" (Journal of Labor Research)
Who said that I live at home? You keep fighting with figments of your own imagination. That must explain your conspiratorial paranoia about a secret elite out to suppress your wages and take away your job. Everyone is against you and you must fight to the death to defend your outmoded and antiquated ideas.
Your genetic fallacies, of which you put forth both Bulverism and appeals to psychology, do not help convince me of anything but your lack of a good argument.
In 2006, the City of Fall River decided to build several new schools using a PLA. After bidding and re-bidding the projects, prices were so far above budget Mayor Lambert decided to re-bid the projects without a PLA.
Despite rampant oil price-driven inflation between the first round of bids under a PLA and the open bidding process, subcontractor bids fell by 13 percent on one project and 15 percent on another. On one of the projects, the number of subcontractor bids rose from 34 to 60.
"The examination of the construction labor market and the facts concerning the postures of organized labor, unionized construction, and their political supporters, as well as of the cases in various states, demonstrate that the claimed advantages of government-mandated PLAs are not supported by factual evidence (Dr. Herbert R. Northup, Journal of Labor Research, Winter 1998).
No non-union apprenticeship? Wrong! Take a look at the lawsuits in California because PLAs won't allow non-union apprentices on the jobs. The federal government even complained that California law discriminates and stifles non-union apprenticeship training programs. So unions try to get rid of them and then complain they don't exist.
You accussed me of making up sources. I'm done with liars like you.
Apprenticeships are THROUGH the State, usually through the Dept of Workforce Development. Which Trade has them, and, where are they located? You have made up sources because when I try to find them, they don't exist.Maybe Mr. MindFreak Angel makes them vanish?
Is apprenticehip the topic you want to stick with?If so, this will be short and easy.
I see you didn't even try to claim that nonunion workers are better than Union workers. Maybe you're starting to get a dose of good common sense.
They are overseen by the state. With the Federal Apprenticeship Act of 1937, the federal government (specifically the U.S. Department of Labor's Office of Apprenticeship Training, in cooperation with the states) oversees the nation's apprenticeship system. Registered apprenticeship programs are operated by private industry - employer or labor/management sponsors.
At my school a good portion of the student body was in co-ops/internships with non-union private industry.
LMFAO - See - you can't stick to a topic. You haven't answered any questions. Why don't you go finish your Dora the Explorer coloring books? What a CHILD!
Fuck you! What sources are made up? Tell me what document you can't find. I have all of the links. I beat your ass up and down and now you deny the sourcing. You are a liar.
More tantrums? The only ass you beat is whatever you won in your one legged ass kicking contest! Crime stats on the DoL don't exist you little snivelling whelp.
See here's the problem. I won't unblock you because of your childlike tantrums. You have zero experience providing for a family, and, have never belonged to a Union. You might as well cite "info" from the ABC (the nonunion's union) and claim it is accurate. You have no idea what an apprenticeship involves, and, that nonunion contractors don't have them. I've seen with my own eyes the kind of work that nonunion companies do - they're pretty sad.
hey corymd, don't blame LABOR unions like the ironworkers for the mistakes the UAW made. I don't have a vacation fund or sick days. I love my job and my challenge to you is to please get your uninformed ass up in the air with me! Scared a girl is going to show you up? Until you can do my job, shut the fuck up!
Attacks from dykes now? Private sector union rate at 7.5% and falling. I don't need to convince you "guys" of anything. I just think it's fun to check up on how desperate you are.
Which one was "nonexistant"? I quoted from all of them. I gave you the titles and the information to locate all of them and all of them were available online.
Now you are just playing games. You can't defend yourself. The sources I cite are right on the internet.
The Cole and Ohanian paper is on Yale's website under the title "New Deal Policies and the Persistence of the Great Depression: A General Equilibrium Analysis."
I have all of the direct links to these sites but I can't post links in the comment section. If you would quit blocking your e-mail, then I could send them to you. I have the list already made up.
The DC Baseball Stadium Project: Broke Promises, Big Losses for DC Residents The District Economic Empowerment Coalition (DEEC) (October 2007)
Project Labor Agreements and the Cost of Public School Construction Projects in New York Paul Bachman and David G. Tuerck, Beacon Hill Institute at Suffolk University (May 2006)
The PLA for the Iowa Events Center: An Unnecessary Burden on the Workers, Businesses and Taxpayers of Iowa Public Industry Institute Staff, Mt. Pleasant, IA (March 2006)
Union-Only Project Labor Agreements: The Public Record of Poor Performance Maurice N. Baskin (2005 edition)
Project Labor Agreements and the Cost of Public School Construction Projects in Connecticut Paul Bachman, Jonathan Haughton and David G. Tuerck, Beacon Hill Institute at Suffolk University (September 2004)
Project Labor Agreements and the Cost of Public School Construction Projects in Massachusetts Paul Bachman, Jonathan Haughton and David G. Tuerck, Beacon Hill Institute at Suffolk University (September 2003)
Erie County Courthouse Construction Projects: Project Labor Agreement Study Ernst & Young (September 2001)
Project Labor Agreements on Public Construction Projects: The Case For and Against Worcester Municipal Research Bureau (May 2001)
Government-Mandated Project Labor Agreements in Construction: The Institutional Facts and Issues and Key Litigation: Moving Toward Union Monopoly on Federal and State Financed Projects. Government Union Review, Volume 19, Number 3. Herbert R. Northrup and Linda E. Alario. (October 2000)
Analysis of the Impacts on the Jefferson County Courthouse Complex through Project Labor Considerations Prepared for the Jefferson County (NY) Board of Legislators Professor Paul G. Carr,(September 2000)
Project Labor Agreement Study: Prepared for Clark County (NV) School District Resolution Management (June 2000)
Government-Mandated Project Labor Agreements in Construction: A Force to Obtain Union Monopoly on Government-Financed Projects. Herbert R. Northrup, The Wharton School. (January 2000)
Boston Harbor-Type Project Labor Agreements in Construction: Nature, Rationales and Legal Challenges Journal of Labor Research. Herbert R. Northrup and Linda E. Alario. (Winter 1998)
Project Labor Agreements: The Extent of Their Use and Related Information GAO Report (May 1998)
Comparison of Nonunion and Union Contractors Construction Fatalities National Center for Construction Education and Research (May 1995)
Analysis of Bids and Costs to the Taxpayer for the Roswell Park Cancer Institute, New York State Dormitory Authority Construction Project Associated Builders & Contractors Empire State Chapter (March 23, 1995)
look, its not perfect no union is i had a problem with how UFCW treated part time workers at a store but hed the union movement never come into existence
we would not have a voice in the workforce end of story
The answer to that is too obvious to mention but since you don't understand I will explain. If you could run a business and compete while giving your employees the pay and benefits a union wants, why deal with a set of managers and owners who try to prevent you from doing what you want? You don't need them. Of course, realty shows that they couldn't compete.
What you are saying is a post hoc fallacy. Read "Markets, Not Unions, Gave us Leisure" Mises Daily by Thomas J. DiLorenzo.
The shorter work week is entirely a capitalist invention. As capital investment caused the marginal productivity of labor to increase over time, less labor was required to produce the same levels of output. As competition became more intense, many employers competed for the best employees by offering both better pay and shorter hours.
The steady rise in living standards in (predominantly) capitalist countries is due to the benefits of private capital investment, entrepreneurship, technological advance, and a better educated workforce.
Those things came about more because of properity than because of unions. Safety standards came about because workplace accidents are extremely costly to production (e.g. lawsuits, cost of training replacements, lost productivity,etc...) . Unions try to take credit for things beyond their control. They contributed to some degree but I would say that their role was the lesser. You can't pay overtime unless their is overtime to be had.
Sure. That's quite easy these days. Seems to be that most of the unions have defrauded companies so bad that they forced themselves out of business. ROFL!
The problem with your argument is that you are not inlcuding the government sector which tax money is forced to go to. There should be no public sector unions.
Unions are over! Get over it. Okay? Can you handle that? The ones that are left are going to be taken care of too. Don't worry about them lasting that much longer.
Your statistics are a lie. You are just talking about the wages and not the benefits or legacy costs.
And furthermore, the "concept of unions" is not what unions actually are. And to add, most of these gains came about due to increased productivity and not because of unions. Child labor or the work week is a great example. See "Markets, Not Unions, Gave Us Leisure" by Thomas J. DiLorenzo. The wealth of a country doesn't increase just because we pay people more dollars. Get out of the 20s.
No. You have the order wrong. You have a strong economy by building up productive capacity through capital investment and then you can start to pay people more and give them benefits. Increases in pay do not mean anything if there is no corresponding improvement in productivity. And remember that companies are not started through pure consumer demand.
Why were all the unions against automation and technology if they wanted to make the country wealthier ion real terms.
"Increases in pay do not mean anything if there is no corresponding improvement in productivity." i agree 100% with that i always said pay someone low and expect low productivity. just my opnion
If it was up to me, I'd outlaw all unions and declare them terrorist groups, then hammer them with both RICO and the Patriot Act, jail or execute all their members and supporters, and seize all their assets and property
Been to Detroit or Flint lately? Unions destroyed our manufacturing with their exhorbitant demands. Why should anyone get paid $70 an hour for a job a monkey could do? Unions destroyed our auto, steel, textile, and airline industries and our schools.
Ive been to Detroit MANY times im also a union stewart and i have to tell you 70 hr is a myth i AGREE darrel you should be paid by your skills and the job that u do.
not everyone can be a skilled CNC operator for example those types of jobs demand good pay.
unions were started because of poor working conditions and very low wages for dangerous jobs.
ill debate u darrel, but cant trow a hissy fit about stuff
If you don't like your working conditions or what you're getting paid, you're free to quit and find another job, or move to where the better jobs are, go back to school and build up your skills and make yourself more valuable, or start your own business. Unions are nothing but greedy Marxist thugs and slackers.
Yeah, those poor execs who get forced to travel around in their private jets and millions in bonuses (even when their company needs getting bailed out) are really lucky to have scapegoats to explain why the business is going under. NEWSFLASH-it's not the Unions who are the problem.
Darrel, after reading your profile, I see that you're against Freedom of Religion that's called for in the Constitution. Why don't YOU move to a country that would fit in with your beliefs? I bet you'd sleep easier knowing that when you wake up (hopefully without your door being kicked in and stormtroopers pulling you out of bed) you'd be in a fascist utopia.
The first amendment protects your freedom of speech from the GOVERNMENT. Anyone else is free to criticise you. Freedom of speech is for everyone, not just your piece of shit car.
Some guys don't get it and can't be helped. If you can't see that being in a union only betters you, your family by giving you increased earning then you know what Unions don't want or need you. We want the best anf brightest
Unions increase pay at the expense of everyone else. That's basic economics. I think the problem is that people like you don't get it. I will explain it to you if you need me to.
That union stuff is over anyway. BLS 2008 statistics show 12.4% union membership and the growth is in public sector unions who go after those greedy taxpayers. LOL!
You know the thing I don't get is why everyone points to the worker as the greedy one, as the theif, as the fat glutton who wants more more more. Last I checked it was the big shots of these major corporations that have messed up this economy so bad. Big bankers crying that half a million is nor much of a bonus...people handing out bonuses and taking them who have done a crap job and have run their company into the ground. Trust me its not the unions fault.
The Federal Reserve was pouring the alcohol and Wall Street was drinking it. That's hardly surprising. The government price-fixing interest rates really created this mess. We exported our inflation and the market for U.S. debt created an asset bubble.
If we let the market work then these banks would have went under like they should have.
What you say is not an argument for unions.
"Trust me its not the unions fault."
They were instrumental in the downfall of the "big three".
There were certain things the UAW had in the contracts that were just not right..i.e paying retirees health care until they die. I would be willing to bet that was something that was asked for when the average age of a retired person was about 70. The UAW were not fair in their arbitration with the big three. I agree..they got greedy in terms of many things. I work in a trade union which is very different world than a factory or a shop. We need reprsentation to ensure fair treatment and wages.
They just walked away from negotiations with GM three days before they have to present their case to Washington. If GM doesn't get more money there won't be a company for them to work at. They didn't want to take GM stock in the company. Why? Do the unions think the company will go under?
Look, if you want fair treatment and wages then reward companies who do that by buying their products and working for them while doing the opposite to bad companies.
Take a look at how much CEO's salaries have risen compared to the average person who DOES the work. Tell me again after some basic math where the problem is.
Again, that is not an argument for unions but an argument against shareholders not cracking down on such pay.
People like to blame the rich but the rich are the ones who drive future investment in this country since consumers have almost no savings. And even if we did distribute the money, it would just cause inflation.
What Kenyesian socialists like yourself don't understand is basic capital theory. All you can understand is demand and nominal price levels. The economy is more complex than that. Our real wealth is not paper, it's our productive capacity.
Sorry chump, this US combat vet fully understands that Union workers are better trained and more productive than nonunion workers. That would mean that our productive capacity is far greater than nonunion workers. You get what you pay for - basic economics.
HUH?
hobkyl 11 months ago
Thx for the new definition for the acronym... UFCW has been stealing money from me every week for the past 2 years.
dbzssj4678 11 months ago
jealous much?
swindy4x4 1 year ago
U.S.A.....love it or leave it motherfuckers...
mharrop396 1 year ago
better yourself... join a union ...
mharrop396 1 year ago
Fitting the Unions are falling, about time they quit leaching off the Govt.
USNChiefC 1 year ago
When a union picks on the simple, the simle needs to fight back, keep your powder dry
8541grunt 1 year ago
Anybody who would choose to work construction w/ out being in a union is a fuckin idiot! But hey go ahead and work your ass off for half my wage, uneducated, and w/ no retirement other than social security. When your broke down pissing on yourself while Ma is it the kitchen cookin up some fiddles, I'll be collecting about $5000 a month from my pension and another $1500-$2000 from social, plus that fat ass annuity check from my union trust fund. If u can argue against that then you are probably
brendin0923 1 year ago
@brendin0923 The people that are the heads of the unions speak at communist conventions. Does that tell you anything?
Hotrodrogers91 1 year ago
Jesus is anti-union too. Lucifer created the first union with his group of fallen angels. Jesus spoke of pay and how a employer has the right to do what he does when he pays his employees. The parable of the Vineyard in Matthew 20. Unions would have crucified Jesus themselves for going along with management.
barrenpaladin 1 year ago
@barrenpaladin Jesus is not real. dude.
jawbrayker 1 year ago
There is freedom of speech, so here is some for you! Shut the fuck up, you fucking ass crack, your just jealous that your not in a union! So go back to work (that's if you have a job) and let your employer do what ever to you. Pay you nothing, and be able to harass you all they want with know one backing you up. So think before you freedom of speech! Unions are the reason you have a weekend, vacation time, holidays off, and able to make a decent living in this country! Research man!
mets750 1 year ago
@mets750 Lets see...how many union "workers" does it take to replace a light bulb? One to get a ladder, another to make sure its level, another to inspect the wiring, another to remove the old bulb, another to dispose of the old bulb, another to inspect the new bulb...did I make my point yet? Unions (Socialists) are a waste of money and are not American, its a socialist idea that came from Germany and Moscow....Research man!
faelanmac 1 year ago
the ufcw is shitty union they don't like to give health benifit to easy the branch i am make you wait to two year to get so fuck ufcw
bartman1238 2 years ago
Ok, you're a soldier and you're from TexASS. Don't you have a gun? When a union tard rams you, you pull a Joe Horn on them and send them to the hell from whence they came.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
I live in Michigan where there quite a few shops. I'd say half the jobs I had were union, the other half non. While there are some great non union places to work, if the owners and management aren't pricks, overwhelmingly non union jobs are less safe, less pay, and are run with a "fuck you" attitude towards the employee. Last non union job I was at was full of people in power that were family and friends of the owner who got treated like god and the regular workers were treated like shit.
Britton001 2 years ago
Right because union executives are treated just like everyone else.
Unions ruined small businesses in this country; and they even took down GM.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
If you look back on the history of GM, the employees there made about the same percentage above minimum wage all the way through as they did 5 years ago. At times they actually made MORE money per hour compared to cost of living and the minimum wage than they did 5 years ago. And yet GM was profitable as hell. What ruined GM was the rising cost of health care along with the refusal of the powers that be there to make well built, efficient cars. They didn't want the cars well build to sell more..
Britton001 2 years ago
Hence I drive an Acura.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
Hence why the U.S. has such a shitty economy right new. Keep driving those Acuras, keep buying that Chinese made shit at Wal-Mart...
Britton001 2 years ago 2
When GM or Ford can make something worth buying; I will.
Its called the free market.
Just remember what the U in USSR stood for.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
I see you're a good little Republican, feeding of the fear the party has thrown at you since the 1980's.
Britton001 2 years ago
Quite the contrary. I voted for Obama as I didn't want a war mongering Alzheimer's patient as president.
I also think W should be on trial for war crimes. However I don't believe in manipulating the free market just so you can have a job bank.
I believe in the free market - no tariffs no nothing. When GM builds something worth buying I'll do exactly that. Until then, have you seen the new MDX?
justinaurelius 2 years ago
I don't think you know how far the importance of U.S. auto makers goes. Do you know that Ford and Gm did in the past and have the ability in the future to produce military vehicles and other things in time of emergency war? They did it in WW 2 and said they would keep that part of their operations for the government if needed. Now imagine if there were no American car companies. Do you think Germna, Japanese or Korean auto companies will produce anything military for us? Hell no...
Britton001 2 years ago
I am aware of that. I am also aware WW2 was completely unnecessary. However the above facts have nothing to do with this discussion. When I make a decision to buy a product, whether its a car, blu ray player or laptop; I will choose the one that fits my needs, has the best reputation and has a price that fits my budget. Hence, I drive an Acura, play blu rays on a Sony and use two Macbooks.
All the bullshit you spewed above has nothing to do with my purchasing decision.
GMs products suck.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
WW2 unnecessarily? WTF? My Grandmother and GrandFather Were in the Army and I always remember my Grandfather in his recliner chair refer to WW2 as the last "Glorified War" He said it was the only time in his life where a military conflict was absolutely necessarily and everyone agreed on that and didn't bitch or call the president a "warmonger"
I bet you don't think your mothers/grandmothers social security check was necessary either. If dare say yes I hope DIE SLOWLY
jason23296 2 years ago
Just remembers what U is USA stood for. Also communist Unions are ran by the Government American unions are elected by the workers.
jason23296 2 years ago
@Britton001 i know this is an old comment, but the post reminds me of my union brothers who said they were never gonna by "chinese made shit at Walmart". Or even go into walmart for that matter. Well when walmart came to town, guess who i saw buying "chinese made shit at Walmart"?? none other than MANY of my union brothers, lmao.m Talk is cheap
FriendlyGeekClassics 11 months ago
yeah and a recession I'm so sick of unions thou I don't believe the UAW is worth shit I thinks it's arrogant to blame a union company for going bankrupt during a recession. Yeah i know Toyota didn't go bankrupt but the people who balance the company budgets aren't in a union.
jason23296 2 years ago
Also, while I've worked in shops here all my life, I've never worked for GM. Throughout the 90's I was making 15-17 dollars an hour at other union shops. But I still loved having other people making GM wages. Why? Because they took all that money and spend it at the small businesses you seem to care about so much. Come ot Michigan and ask ANY small business in Detroit, Flint or pretty much any town that has an auto plant and they'll tell you they LOVED union money. But most are closed now.
Britton001 2 years ago
Yes, they are closed. Why? because GM is closed. Why? Among other things the unions choked the company.
They were forced to pay people despite not working. I don't see how anyone can justify that.
Paying somebody to sit at home in their Barcalounger is unacceptable.
justinaurelius 2 years ago
you are the toughest guy on cyberspace
backbone
i bet you pull your little weiny while writing that tough line
all the tough guys come out on these blogs funny never see them on the pickets??
wiznhymer 2 years ago 2
I'd as soon smack a union peon in his face as I would cross the street. These cowards know better than to mess with me as one on one they are COWARDS and they know it. I tell to get to stepping and they ALWAYS move out of my way
WillBackbone 2 years ago
ok whatever id like to see a video on youtube of you doing that ok?
wkruk1979 2 years ago
he used to tell me i will give you this or this because i dont want to lose my good skilled trade guys to a union shop
unions secure the best rate possible without damaging the companies bottom line
i now negotiate in a union atmosphere and can tell you it is not much different
we look at what the best contracts are .then find a common ground
unions work in harmony with business to secure a good middle class for everyone
all others fall into line
union or no union
wiznhymer 2 years ago
anyone who thinks that unions do not have an impact in todays society as far as wages and benefits goes is clueless
how doo i know??
i have been in the manufacturing industry for 31 years
22 in a non union shop 9 in a union shop
i was a contract negotiator for 15 years in the non union shop
every time i sat with my boss to dicuss increases we openly compared what we had to what the others had
wiznhymer 2 years ago
Sounds like you deserved it.
fastmxracer24 2 years ago
Wow. What substance. Go ask mommy for your juice box.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
..and have her wipe your nose. LMAO
IWLocal8 2 years ago
You're the kind of kid who thinks because he reads a Flas Gordon comic book, he's an astronaut. What kind of experience do you have as far as working in the construction field? (or as far as supporting a family) I'm betting ZERO. The only money you earn is by taking out the garbage and collecting your allowance.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
How about answering the question of whether you live with mommy and daddy. LMAO
IWLocal8 2 years ago
And your answer....?
IWLocal8 2 years ago
What do you think PLAs are? Do you understand how a bid process works? I have yet to see ONE nonunion contractor who pays close to Scale. What kind of training does a typical nonunion worker get?
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Can't answer can you? I'll come back when you grow up little boy. It seems that one cannot defend oneself so he procceeds to change the topic.
And you better watch out for that secret wage supressing elite.
I know what PLAs are and apparently you do not. "Scale"? Only the market can calculate wages and prices, otherwise communism would have been a great success. As far as training is concerned, look at the studies I cited about PLAs. Look at the worker safety element as well.
corymd3470 2 years ago
The results of the work is what matters and is the best proof of training.
When comparing projects with and without union-only PLAs, there is no evidence of superior work on PLA projects. Union-only PLA projects, such as Bostons Big Dig, demonstrate that a union-only PLA cant substitute for quality control management.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Milwaukee's Marquette Interchange makes you a liar.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Sorry - any support of Communism is strictly forbidden in our Constitution. You couldn't be more wrong about safety. Nonunion contractors try to get by with as little safety equipment as possible. I see it regularly. They don't want to pay their workers what they're worth and they certainly don't want to waste any money on quality safety equipment. Unions brought about OSHA. As a matter of fact, my contractor PAID me to go through the OSHA 40.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Your friend OSHA has statistics that show that union workers historically have a higher rate of fatalities than nonunion workers. Facts are a bitch aren't they?
corymd3470 2 years ago
Sorry - you're wrong. I recently read the most current report. LMAO
IWLocal8 2 years ago
By the way, what report would that be?
Where is your answer to the fact that open-shop contractors, win 75-80 percent of the national construction dollars spent?
corymd3470 2 years ago
You answer whether or not you live at home with your parents kid. First things first.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Another attempt at Bulverism.
You claim that A is true.
Because of B, you personally desire that A should be true.
Therefore, A is false.
Can't produce?
corymd3470 2 years ago
UAW stands for "U AIN'T WORKING! or does UAW = United Against Work.
AFL-CIO: American Federation of Leaches, Criminals, Ingrates, and Oddballs
corymd3470 2 years ago
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corymd3470 2 years ago
You are a perfect example of a union man. Arrogant, stupid and greedy. You guys really think the world of yourselves. You guys are really just a bunch of scumbags. You think you are entitled to things when in reality you are the genetic mistakes. Look at how I took you to school on the other thread. The only thing you can do is either lie or become proud because you found one report about one topic that you have some grounds to argue.
corymd3470 2 years ago
It's easy to copy and paste like you do. (without having any idea what the reality is) I see you're having another one of your childish hissy fits.
Greed is exactly why we need Unions. If I was greedy, I wouldn't be putting as much time as I do to look out for Working Families. I'm not the one trying to get rich. Since you don't have to pay your own bills, it's easy to take your position. DO YOU STILL LIVE AT HOME WITH MOMMY AND DADDY?
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Can't produce. Just keeps throwing a tantrum and making up non-sense. How embarrassing that you assume all of this irrelevent non-sense about me.
And now he is looking out for "Working Families." You are my hero.
You're from Milwaukee. Who really cares about what people from Milwaukee think? You're probably wasted right now. It would explain a lot.
corymd3470 2 years ago
I'm the arrogant one? LMFAO Well kid, I'll be flying to D.C. to represent my Union (not in a private jet or even 1st class) in mid May while you're watching Dora the Explorer at your parents' house. Who cares about me? Well, who cares about a kid with NO work experience talking about what's best for Working Families? You really are a piece of work!
IWLocal8 2 years ago
You probably meant to say that you were going to D.C. with a suitcase full of cash to bribe politicians. That's the only way they will listen to a guy from Milwaukee. When they think of Milwaukee they think of BEER. LOL! That's just like unions to get the government involved in violating other's property rights.
Why do you capitalize "Working Families"? What a complex.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Typical union. You spend more time in Washington than on the job. God help them if you're their propaganda man.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Since you don't work, you have no clue why I capitalize Working Families. I'm trying to help kids like you so that they only need to have ONE paper route instead of two in order to be able to play World of Warcraft on their parents' computer.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Do you know the word "libelous"?
But to entertain your idea, if I didn't have a job around here it would probably be because of the unions that control Albany and shut business out of the state with high taxes or lack of incentives.
See the Manhattan Institute report, 'Albany Inc.: The Special-Interest Conglomerate that Runs New York.'
I do copy and paste from sources I CITE. It's called doing your homework instead of rambling prejudice. I post relevent excerpts because you won't read.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Now you claim Unions create taxes. LMFAO Get your juice box kid.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Are you kidding? Public sector unions drive up the cost of to the state big time. Remember that is where the growth in the union movement is today. From higher pay to health care to pensions, they do a pretty good job of sticking it to the taxpayer. Let's not forget public projects. You are a fucking lunkhead.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Yeah, again that's why the State of WI used $80,000 from the MILLIONS saved due to a Union workforce to thank Union workers for a job well done. Look at the majority of peoples' 401k accounts. Our pension is over %80 funded and in GREAT shape. Just imagine where those people would be today if the Republican'ts got their way and privatized social security. (the nonunion's pension plan) LMFAO Kid, you'll never get a clue!
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Just for fun, take a look at: "John Stossel - Big Three Bailout - Give Me a Break" on YouTube.
corymd3470 2 years ago
How many dollars do unions win in bids again?
corymd3470 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Historical data from OSHA gives a larger data set and shows evidence against the claim that unions have a better record. Doing Inspection database requests on their awful website doesn't seem to allow searching for Union Status even though it is recorded.
corymd3470 2 years ago
2004 research conducted by Clemson University of construction industry fatalities between 1994 and 2002 concluded that the nonunion workers experienced 12.8 percent less fatalities per 100,000 workers than union workers.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Well, that goes against Princeton's 2005 study that shows a 27% difference per 100,000 workers as far as fatalities. Also, OSHA's latest (2008) report shows that nonunion companies are 78% less compliant with the 1926 OSHA regs and as far as injuries, are more prone (34%) to having accidents.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
All I know from OSHA is it's Analysis of Construction Fatalities database for 1985-89 found that said `the distribution of fatalities among union and nonunion work sites is similar to the composition of the construction work force in terms of union and nonunion workers.'
corymd3470 2 years ago
A nationwide study in 1995 by Charles Culver, a former OSHA official, revealed that on-the-job fatalities were significantly lower in union-free construction than in comparable unionized construction in every year from 1985 through 1993.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Comment removed
corymd3470 2 years ago
That report is HOW OLD? (if it DOES exist)
IWLocal8 2 years ago
The study from 1985-1993 showed a lower fatality rate for non-union workers and the study from 1994 to 2002 showed the same. That's a good chunck of time.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Maybe I missed it, but, tell me again how nonunion workers are better than Union workers. You're already slipping into obscure subjects and throwing hissy fits.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Because union workers are lazy and greedy which I already said. Non-union workers have more incentives to work hard and can be fired more easily. They also can reduce the price of projects. In some cases, wages are too low for very good workers in the union and it keeps such people from working harder. Non-union workers are better because they don't gain at the expense of others.
corymd3470 2 years ago
What incentives do they have if they can be fired so easily, and, won't ever get paid what they're worth? If wages affect the price of a job, how come Union contractors win the majority of bids? What do you know about hard work if you still live at home? You can't be for real....
IWLocal8 2 years ago
You will get paid in accordance with how you perform. If you are valuable enough, you can exceed a set union wage. People who are lazy and do shoddy work can be fired.
Unions win bids because they're the only ones allowed to bid in many cases such as with union-only PLAs. As for your assertion elsewhere, I would prefer to discover your sourcing since you are a liar. The studies that I see all show that unions drive up the cost of projects.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Well, do you live at home with mommy and daddy? You come across as a high school kid who watches too much Fox news. You obviously have never had to support a family and know nothing about hard work. I'd LOVE to see you try to do what I do for a living and accuse our Union of being lazy. Stay in school kid, maybe you'll get a head start on head greeter at Wal-Mart.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Union-only PLAs limit access to training. PLAs prohibit apprentices who are not enrolled in a union program from working and learning on-the-job. Penalizing workers who participate in training programs alternative to union programs is unfair and has contributed to the shortage of skilled workers in the construction industry.
corymd3470 2 years ago
You think Unions (who pay for training the apprentices) should allow nonunion workers to take part in their training? (that has been going on for over 100 years)
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Comment removed
corymd3470 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Wow! You really are stupid. Do you even comprehend what you just said? It's about who can get the projects in the first place. Duh!
corymd3470 2 years ago
Most construction companies that are not signatory to a union don't bid on projects subject to a union-only PLA. By submitting a bid and agreeing to the terms of a union-only PLA, contractors have to relinquish management of their own workforce to a third-party (the unions) by terminating their employees or in some circumstances, forcing their workers to go to the union hall for a worksite referral with no guarantee that their workers will be assigned back to their original employer.
corymd3470 2 years ago
I was talking about the myriad of jobs that don't have a PLA. Why is it that Union contractors get most of those bids? FYI-NObody is forced to go through a Union hall. Companies do not have to reliquish any management to any Union. Once again, you're pulling info out of your ass. The problem is - you don't have ANY firsthand knowledge of what goes on.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
You are pulling information out of your ass. What I said is true. You don't seem to understand the terms of the agreement.
You can't provide a single source for what you say.
More than 85 percent of construction workers nationwide are not even members of a union. (BLS)
corymd3470 2 years ago
In his analysis of PLAs, Dr. Herbert Northrup concludes, "To exclude or to limit the right of open-shop contractors, who have won 75-80 percent of the national construction dollar spent, from the opportunity to bid on public financed construction, and thus to limit or to eliminate their participation in construction paid for by taxpayers unless they are willing to work as if they were unionized contractors is palpably both unfair and contrary to sound public policy" (Journal of Labor Research)
corymd3470 2 years ago
Who said that I live at home? You keep fighting with figments of your own imagination. That must explain your conspiratorial paranoia about a secret elite out to suppress your wages and take away your job. Everyone is against you and you must fight to the death to defend your outmoded and antiquated ideas.
Your genetic fallacies, of which you put forth both Bulverism and appeals to psychology, do not help convince me of anything but your lack of a good argument.
corymd3470 2 years ago
In 2006, the City of Fall River decided to build several new schools using a PLA. After bidding and re-bidding the projects, prices were so far above budget Mayor Lambert decided to re-bid the projects without a PLA.
Despite rampant oil price-driven inflation between the first round of bids under a PLA and the open bidding process, subcontractor bids fell by 13 percent on one project and 15 percent on another. On one of the projects, the number of subcontractor bids rose from 34 to 60.
corymd3470 2 years ago
"The examination of the construction labor market and the facts concerning the postures of organized labor, unionized construction, and their political supporters, as well as of the cases in various states, demonstrate that the claimed advantages of government-mandated PLAs are not supported by factual evidence (Dr. Herbert R. Northup, Journal of Labor Research, Winter 1998).
corymd3470 2 years ago
I'll give you one more try. Pick one topic. Stick to it. Tell me why nonunion workers are better than Union workers.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
No non-union apprenticeship? Wrong! Take a look at the lawsuits in California because PLAs won't allow non-union apprentices on the jobs. The federal government even complained that California law discriminates and stifles non-union apprenticeship training programs. So unions try to get rid of them and then complain they don't exist.
You accussed me of making up sources. I'm done with liars like you.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Apprenticeships are THROUGH the State, usually through the Dept of Workforce Development. Which Trade has them, and, where are they located? You have made up sources because when I try to find them, they don't exist.Maybe Mr. MindFreak Angel makes them vanish?
Is apprenticehip the topic you want to stick with?If so, this will be short and easy.
I see you didn't even try to claim that nonunion workers are better than Union workers. Maybe you're starting to get a dose of good common sense.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
They are overseen by the state. With the Federal Apprenticeship Act of 1937, the federal government (specifically the U.S. Department of Labor's Office of Apprenticeship Training, in cooperation with the states) oversees the nation's apprenticeship system. Registered apprenticeship programs are operated by private industry - employer or labor/management sponsors.
At my school a good portion of the student body was in co-ops/internships with non-union private industry.
corymd3470 2 years ago
So, you got to work for free, right? LMAO
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Exactly what a union man would say. Maybe all the kids in high school and college should drop-out because they have to work for free.
Liar.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Little boy, how does going to school tie in with working for free?
Again, how are nonunion workers better than Union workers?
Also, which nonunion Trades have apprenticeships?
Are you going throw more hissy fits now?
LMAO
IWLocal8 2 years ago
hissy fits?
You are a liar.
Union workers suck and I have already explained that.
I am not going to spend my time dealing with your inferiority complex.
corymd3470 2 years ago
"how does going to school tie in with working for free?"
You work hard studying and learning in school and you don't get paid. DUH!
corymd3470 2 years ago
That comment just shows how clueless you are. When you leave mommy and daddy's house, maybe you'll get a dose of reality.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Union workers are lazy and greedy and they are a dying breed for a reason.
corymd3470 2 years ago
LMFAO - See - you can't stick to a topic. You haven't answered any questions. Why don't you go finish your Dora the Explorer coloring books? What a CHILD!
IWLocal8 2 years ago
By the way, most of the co-ops/internships are paid ones.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Fuck you! What sources are made up? Tell me what document you can't find. I have all of the links. I beat your ass up and down and now you deny the sourcing. You are a liar.
corymd3470 2 years ago
More tantrums? The only ass you beat is whatever you won in your one legged ass kicking contest! Crime stats on the DoL don't exist you little snivelling whelp.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
See here's the problem. I won't unblock you because of your childlike tantrums. You have zero experience providing for a family, and, have never belonged to a Union. You might as well cite "info" from the ABC (the nonunion's union) and claim it is accurate. You have no idea what an apprenticeship involves, and, that nonunion contractors don't have them. I've seen with my own eyes the kind of work that nonunion companies do - they're pretty sad.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
hey corymd, don't blame LABOR unions like the ironworkers for the mistakes the UAW made. I don't have a vacation fund or sick days. I love my job and my challenge to you is to please get your uninformed ass up in the air with me! Scared a girl is going to show you up? Until you can do my job, shut the fuck up!
blondwelder 2 years ago
Attacks from dykes now? Private sector union rate at 7.5% and falling. I don't need to convince you "guys" of anything. I just think it's fun to check up on how desperate you are.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Desperate is calling names. It's funny how you get facts right out of your ass.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
You don't cite anything. I cite exactly where I get my research. You don't even have any facts to offer.
corymd3470 2 years ago
You made up sources because when I looked they were nonexistant! The only one that had credability was a very biased one. Not even a nice try kid.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Which one was "nonexistant"? I quoted from all of them. I gave you the titles and the information to locate all of them and all of them were available online.
Now you are just playing games. You can't defend yourself. The sources I cite are right on the internet.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Congressional Testimony, Daniel T. Griswold, "The Economic Effects of Significant U.S. Import Restraints" December 4, 2001.
"History of Ironworkers Local 8" By J. Jamakaya.
U.S. Census Bureau, Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007 4 (2008).
Go to U.S. Chamber of Commerce website forward slash "unionrhetoric" for the whitepapers.
See the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Economic News Release "Union Members Summary" released on January 28, 2009.
corymd3470 2 years ago
You already know about the BHI report.
The Cole and Ohanian paper is on Yale's website under the title "New Deal Policies and the Persistence of the Great Depression: A General Equilibrium Analysis."
I have all of the direct links to these sites but I can't post links in the comment section. If you would quit blocking your e-mail, then I could send them to you. I have the list already made up.
Don't dare accuse me of making up sources.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Here are some supporting what I said about PLAs:
The DC Baseball Stadium Project: Broke Promises, Big Losses for DC Residents The District Economic Empowerment Coalition (DEEC) (October 2007)
Project Labor Agreements and the Cost of Public School Construction Projects in New York Paul Bachman and David G. Tuerck, Beacon Hill Institute at Suffolk University (May 2006)
corymd3470 2 years ago
The PLA for the Iowa Events Center: An Unnecessary Burden on the Workers, Businesses and Taxpayers of Iowa Public Industry Institute Staff, Mt. Pleasant, IA (March 2006)
Union-Only Project Labor Agreements: The Public Record of Poor Performance Maurice N. Baskin (2005 edition)
Project Labor Agreements and the Cost of Public School Construction Projects in Connecticut Paul Bachman, Jonathan Haughton and David G. Tuerck, Beacon Hill Institute at Suffolk University (September 2004)
corymd3470 2 years ago
Project Labor Agreements and the Cost of Public School Construction Projects in Massachusetts Paul Bachman, Jonathan Haughton and David G. Tuerck, Beacon Hill Institute at Suffolk University (September 2003)
Erie County Courthouse Construction Projects: Project Labor Agreement Study Ernst & Young (September 2001)
Project Labor Agreements on Public Construction Projects: The Case For and Against Worcester Municipal Research Bureau (May 2001)
corymd3470 2 years ago
Government-Mandated Project Labor Agreements in Construction: The Institutional Facts and Issues and Key Litigation: Moving Toward Union Monopoly on Federal and State Financed Projects. Government Union Review, Volume 19, Number 3. Herbert R. Northrup and Linda E. Alario. (October 2000)
Analysis of the Impacts on the Jefferson County Courthouse Complex through Project Labor Considerations Prepared for the Jefferson County (NY) Board of Legislators Professor Paul G. Carr,(September 2000)
corymd3470 2 years ago
Project Labor Agreement Study: Prepared for Clark County (NV) School District Resolution Management (June 2000)
Government-Mandated Project Labor Agreements in Construction: A Force to Obtain Union Monopoly on Government-Financed Projects. Herbert R. Northrup, The Wharton School. (January 2000)
Boston Harbor-Type Project Labor Agreements in Construction: Nature, Rationales and Legal Challenges Journal of Labor Research. Herbert R. Northrup and Linda E. Alario. (Winter 1998)
corymd3470 2 years ago
Project Labor Agreements: The Extent of Their Use and Related Information GAO Report (May 1998)
Comparison of Nonunion and Union Contractors Construction Fatalities National Center for Construction Education and Research (May 1995)
Analysis of Bids and Costs to the Taxpayer for the Roswell Park Cancer Institute, New York State Dormitory Authority Construction Project Associated Builders & Contractors Empire State Chapter (March 23, 1995)
corymd3470 2 years ago
LMFAO - You get him, sister!
IWLocal8 2 years ago
this thread is AWSOME !!!
btw
my new theory on people that dont like unions... DONT JOIN ONE simple as that
let the rest of us do our thing dont be haters lol
wkruk1979 2 years ago
It's not that simple.
A closed, union or agency shop forces you to pay the dues or become part of the union to keep your job.
corymd3470 2 years ago
ok ill take the republican stance on this than " if you dont like it find another job"
wkruk1979 2 years ago
That's what they should do. Get as far away from unions as possible.
But why don't union people start their own businesses? Can't answer that one can you?
corymd3470 2 years ago
because y should they?
but tell me if not for unions there would be NO
Overtime pay,
40 hr work week
saftey standards
look, its not perfect no union is i had a problem with how UFCW treated part time workers at a store but hed the union movement never come into existence
we would not have a voice in the workforce end of story
wkruk1979 2 years ago
The answer to that is too obvious to mention but since you don't understand I will explain. If you could run a business and compete while giving your employees the pay and benefits a union wants, why deal with a set of managers and owners who try to prevent you from doing what you want? You don't need them. Of course, realty shows that they couldn't compete.
What you are saying is a post hoc fallacy. Read "Markets, Not Unions, Gave us Leisure" Mises Daily by Thomas J. DiLorenzo.
corymd3470 2 years ago
but tell me if not for unions there would be NO
Overtime pay,
40 hr work week
saftey standards
wkruk1979 2 years ago
Comment removed
corymd3470 2 years ago
The shorter work week is entirely a capitalist invention. As capital investment caused the marginal productivity of labor to increase over time, less labor was required to produce the same levels of output. As competition became more intense, many employers competed for the best employees by offering both better pay and shorter hours.
corymd3470 2 years ago
The steady rise in living standards in (predominantly) capitalist countries is due to the benefits of private capital investment, entrepreneurship, technological advance, and a better educated workforce.
corymd3470 2 years ago
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Those things came about more because of properity than because of unions. Safety standards came about because workplace accidents are extremely costly to production (e.g. lawsuits, cost of training replacements, lost productivity,etc...) . Unions try to take credit for things beyond their control. They contributed to some degree but I would say that their role was the lesser. You can't pay overtime unless their is overtime to be had.
corymd3470 2 years ago
A friend of mine recently did just that. (what a stupid question)
IWLocal8 2 years ago
than find another job if you dont want to be in a unon
ifg your employeer forces you to wear a suit to work u going to fight that to?
wkruk1979 2 years ago
Sure. That's quite easy these days. Seems to be that most of the unions have defrauded companies so bad that they forced themselves out of business. ROFL!
The problem with your argument is that you are not inlcuding the government sector which tax money is forced to go to. There should be no public sector unions.
Unions are over! Get over it. Okay? Can you handle that? The ones that are left are going to be taken care of too. Don't worry about them lasting that much longer.
corymd3470 2 years ago
i sometimes wonder if i had a time machine to go back to the 20s would u support the original concept of unions?
had not for them there would be no
40 hr work week'
overtime (THAT IS A LAW BTW)
family sick leave
minimum wage
i could go on and on
wkruk1979 2 years ago
do u understand its the unions that built the middle class?
a union auto worker on the line can average 22:86 hr and make about 56 g a year that is not exactily breaking the bank
10% is the overall cost of building a car going to wages meaning that companies would still go under if people work for free
want to talk defrauding/ try CEO bonus pay for a job not done and still paying those bonus's when companies are going under
wkruk1979 2 years ago
Your statistics are a lie. You are just talking about the wages and not the benefits or legacy costs.
And furthermore, the "concept of unions" is not what unions actually are. And to add, most of these gains came about due to increased productivity and not because of unions. Child labor or the work week is a great example. See "Markets, Not Unions, Gave Us Leisure" by Thomas J. DiLorenzo. The wealth of a country doesn't increase just because we pay people more dollars. Get out of the 20s.
corymd3470 2 years ago
ok so u were always aganist unions OK
u say MOST OF the gains belive me unions did help the working class like it or not
wkruk1979 2 years ago
we cannot have a strong economy without good jobs, good wages pension and retiremnt plans
and they were NOT forced by unions the were won in contract talks
wkruk1979 2 years ago
No. You have the order wrong. You have a strong economy by building up productive capacity through capital investment and then you can start to pay people more and give them benefits. Increases in pay do not mean anything if there is no corresponding improvement in productivity. And remember that companies are not started through pure consumer demand.
Why were all the unions against automation and technology if they wanted to make the country wealthier ion real terms.
corymd3470 2 years ago
"Increases in pay do not mean anything if there is no corresponding improvement in productivity." i agree 100% with that i always said pay someone low and expect low productivity. just my opnion
wkruk1979 2 years ago
If it was up to me, I'd outlaw all unions and declare them terrorist groups, then hammer them with both RICO and the Patriot Act, jail or execute all their members and supporters, and seize all their assets and property
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago
u have anything new to say? other than your tired old warn out talking points
maybe u can tell us Y u feel this way?
wkruk1979 2 years ago
When I want your input asshole, I'll kick you in the teeth for it. Until then, STFU!!!!
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago
ill be your father figure out here (and i promice not to beat u) darrel, give me a REASON y u feel unions are bad not just copy and paste
ill teach u if u want to learn
wkruk1979 2 years ago
Been to Detroit or Flint lately? Unions destroyed our manufacturing with their exhorbitant demands. Why should anyone get paid $70 an hour for a job a monkey could do? Unions destroyed our auto, steel, textile, and airline industries and our schools.
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago
thats better/ u giving me an opnion u have
Ive been to Detroit MANY times im also a union stewart and i have to tell you 70 hr is a myth i AGREE darrel you should be paid by your skills and the job that u do.
not everyone can be a skilled CNC operator for example those types of jobs demand good pay.
unions were started because of poor working conditions and very low wages for dangerous jobs.
ill debate u darrel, but cant trow a hissy fit about stuff
wkruk1979 2 years ago
If you don't like your working conditions or what you're getting paid, you're free to quit and find another job, or move to where the better jobs are, go back to school and build up your skills and make yourself more valuable, or start your own business. Unions are nothing but greedy Marxist thugs and slackers.
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago
At least now your giving honest opnions instead of talking points being pasted
i dont agree with them but c'mon man at least you can debate someone better this way
one last question, whats with the christian and swaering thing? i thought they dont go together
wkruk1979 2 years ago
Yeah, those poor execs who get forced to travel around in their private jets and millions in bonuses (even when their company needs getting bailed out) are really lucky to have scapegoats to explain why the business is going under. NEWSFLASH-it's not the Unions who are the problem.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Darrel, after reading your profile, I see that you're against Freedom of Religion that's called for in the Constitution. Why don't YOU move to a country that would fit in with your beliefs? I bet you'd sleep easier knowing that when you wake up (hopefully without your door being kicked in and stormtroopers pulling you out of bed) you'd be in a fascist utopia.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
now in 2009 unions are used to bind agreements between employer and employees no more no more no less
wkruk1979 2 years ago
Hitler did exactly that. Thanks for showing us where you're coming from.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
The first amendment protects your freedom of speech from the GOVERNMENT. Anyone else is free to criticise you. Freedom of speech is for everyone, not just your piece of shit car.
peacelord 2 years ago
Some guys don't get it and can't be helped. If you can't see that being in a union only betters you, your family by giving you increased earning then you know what Unions don't want or need you. We want the best anf brightest
Ironworkers Local 15
jazzman3071 3 years ago 2
Unions increase pay at the expense of everyone else. That's basic economics. I think the problem is that people like you don't get it. I will explain it to you if you need me to.
That union stuff is over anyway. BLS 2008 statistics show 12.4% union membership and the growth is in public sector unions who go after those greedy taxpayers. LOL!
corymd3470 3 years ago
You know the thing I don't get is why everyone points to the worker as the greedy one, as the theif, as the fat glutton who wants more more more. Last I checked it was the big shots of these major corporations that have messed up this economy so bad. Big bankers crying that half a million is nor much of a bonus...people handing out bonuses and taking them who have done a crap job and have run their company into the ground. Trust me its not the unions fault.
jazzman3071 3 years ago
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corymd3470 3 years ago
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The Federal Reserve was pouring the alcohol and Wall Street was drinking it. That's hardly surprising. The government price-fixing interest rates really created this mess. We exported our inflation and the market for U.S. debt created an asset bubble.
If we let the market work then these banks would have went under like they should have.
What you say is not an argument for unions.
"Trust me its not the unions fault."
They were instrumental in the downfall of the "big three".
corymd3470 3 years ago
There were certain things the UAW had in the contracts that were just not right..i.e paying retirees health care until they die. I would be willing to bet that was something that was asked for when the average age of a retired person was about 70. The UAW were not fair in their arbitration with the big three. I agree..they got greedy in terms of many things. I work in a trade union which is very different world than a factory or a shop. We need reprsentation to ensure fair treatment and wages.
jazzman3071 3 years ago
They just walked away from negotiations with GM three days before they have to present their case to Washington. If GM doesn't get more money there won't be a company for them to work at. They didn't want to take GM stock in the company. Why? Do the unions think the company will go under?
Look, if you want fair treatment and wages then reward companies who do that by buying their products and working for them while doing the opposite to bad companies.
corymd3470 3 years ago
Take a look at how much CEO's salaries have risen compared to the average person who DOES the work. Tell me again after some basic math where the problem is.
IWLocal8 3 years ago
Again, that is not an argument for unions but an argument against shareholders not cracking down on such pay.
People like to blame the rich but the rich are the ones who drive future investment in this country since consumers have almost no savings. And even if we did distribute the money, it would just cause inflation.
I live in Buffalo. Don't tell me about unions.
corymd3470 2 years ago
What Kenyesian socialists like yourself don't understand is basic capital theory. All you can understand is demand and nominal price levels. The economy is more complex than that. Our real wealth is not paper, it's our productive capacity.
corymd3470 2 years ago
Sorry chump, this US combat vet fully understands that Union workers are better trained and more productive than nonunion workers. That would mean that our productive capacity is far greater than nonunion workers. You get what you pay for - basic economics.
IWLocal8 2 years ago