Christopher Hitchens Europe and Terrorism Part 1

[EmmaYaBasta]

i used to like Hitchens when he was sill writing for the left

[cakeisnotanumber]

I wish people would stop using the very general term 'left' and 'right'. Some leftists will have right views, and some rightists will have left views. It's not black and white.

I don't label myself as left or right because it restricts me, and if I label anyone else then I am making assumptions for all of their political beliefs... which is foolish.

[Superhaze]

Left and right are not global labels. What does the left think of this, and the right of that. It doesnt make any sense. The left in southern bolivia will have a different view of issues than the left in northern france

[Brantinger]

Can the whole debate be found somewhere?

[WolfmanJoeHunter]

It gives the itunes address at the start

[mongobobo]

There was no shortfall of labour in Europe during the '50's. The corporate powers that be wanted to dillute the labour pool in order to keep wages down. There has never been full employment in Europe.

[Elcristoph]

how old is that pic?...becouse if its new I though hichens quit smoking..

[pml4010]

it's not recent. it was from several years ago when he was at a protest supporting Denmark's freedom of speech (the aftermath of the Denmark cartoons satirizing the Prophet Mohammed). he's quit smoking awhile ago.

[constantijn87]

Many immigrants from the Muslim world have illiberal opinions.

I have to ask the question

left-wingers what are your stands on immigration?.

[SockbatReplica]

If you're an immigrant and you commit a felony out the fucking door!

[artyfarty2]

Immigration should be sufficiently slow as to be sure that peoples of hostile cultures integrate before they can establish significant cultural pockets within a nation.

[cheburashka1326]

Define hostile culture. How do you see that being implemented in politically correct environment?

[sondano]

@constantijn87 I'm a liberal and I say no more fucking creatures from the third world period. Well I hated the idea of tolerating these idiots to begin with.

[BelfastAtheist]

@constantijn87

Would it be totally douchebag-esque to reply to a comment you left a year ago?

Oh fuck it, you asked for opinions.

Immigration is a complex issue, however if you study the geography and population of virtually any country on the planet; you'll discover it's pretty much impossible to find one that's 'Over-crowded' most of the biggest countries (Russia, Germany, Japan, China, America..) is merely uninhabited, unindustrialized wasteland.

[constantijn87]

You right about the left right divide. it is not clear-cut.

There are some people on the right who are sympathetic towards conservative Islam.

Dinesh D'Souza in America and in Europe many Christian democratic parties.

But we in Europe have something Anglo-Saxons dont have ,classical liberalism

They have a great tradition. Anders Fogh Rasmussen and Ayaan hirsi Ali are classical liberals.

[constantijn87]

Criticising the Saudi culture will mean that you think they have inferior elements in their value system. To say nothing means that your feminist principles would be compromised. That is Because you would think that women are not equal to men in all cases.

[constantijn87]

Let me formulate it differently. You cant think that all cultures are equal and at the same time believe that women are equal to men. Women in Saudi Arabia are not allowed to drive.

The cultural relativist ideology dictates that you cant judge another culture by your own cultural standards. But according to feminism every women should have the same rights as men. So you have to make a choice between the two.

[constantijn87]

Yes that is absolutely true. But the contradictions in the American left will become more apparent. The American left will split between multiculturalists and classical liberals.

Because it is difficult to support gay marriage or women rights and at the same time be sympathetic towards orthodox Islam.

In Europe Gays and feminist are moving to the right of the political spectrum.

[jtfugate]

To be a someone who is accepting of other cultures is not synonymous to having empathy for people who treat others unjustly...I personally feel all religions, philosophies not to be confused with this, treat women as lesser beings and are very outspoken against homosexuals; to say otherwise would be taking a minorities viewpoint...a world where religious views are saved for church or family dinner conversation would serve us all much better than the petulance of believers these days

[fctchk]

A world where all religions not just the Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Mayan, Germanic and Norse etc. would be relegated to the dustbin of history would serve us best.

[tookaysevon]

So you can't be a feminist and a multiculturalist at the same time?

And when you say American left, are you talking about the democrats?

[SockbatReplica]

Actually I consider it the other way around(Same thing is happening here in Canada) I think those who sympathize with Islam are the ones who are truely moving to the right.. I think those who remain true to progressive values and are willing to defend the rights of women and gays are the ones who are truely on the left. And of course let's not forget the jewish conspiracies that are coming from these so called multiculturalists.

[adknerr]

I agree with you 100%. Now there is definitely a difference between not tolerating the behavior of these cultures and out-right invading them. We have to find a proper tactic for getting these countries onto the correct page to benefit us all, but obviously the answer isn't simple and I certainly don't have it, I just know some answers are wrong.

[adknerr]

However I feel like the discussion here about the term 'multiculturalism' is a little too extreme. I don't think that most people that identify with that term would say 'we must respect or even tolerate ALL aspects of ALL cultures'. Most open minded people need to continue seeing if our own culture needs to be improved, and taking good ideas from other ones is a great source to begin looking. Things like women's rights will always win out when going to 'first principles'.

[SockbatReplica]

Well because it's not really multiculturalism we're talking about cultural relativism is what we're talking about. The problem is that it often goes under the guise of multiculturalism.

[JohnR22926]

IMO the American Left cannot quite bring themselves to condemn radical Islam because to do so would imply that Bush was correct.

They cannot do this under any circumstances. So...Obama downplays the threat and femminists/gays remain completely silent about Islamic excesses.

[siyengar9821]

Obama is a non-believer. However, as long as he proclaims his "Christianity" it is wise of him to not condemn and deplore Islamic excesses. Abortion, stem cells, gay rights are all issues only because of religious extremism in our own country. The excesses in Islam are also mandated by Islamic/Sharia law. This problem cannot be addressed as long as we remain a nation where a candidate has to falsely pretend to be a Christian in order to be elected. As Hitchens says, Religion poisons everything.

[ClumsyRoot]

I don't think they're reluctance to condemn Islam has anything to do with Bush.

Sam Harris made a good point: secular liberals, because they look upon orthodox religious beliefs as so transparently absurd, literally cannot believe that anyone actually subscribes to the worldview inherent in fundamentalism.

[adknerr]

That's true only if you have fallen for lie contradicting the fact that Bush didn't justify his war on Iraq on religious terms.

The American left typically identifies with secularism, therefore I'm not quite sure how you can say they cannot condemn and ridiculous religion.

[SockbatReplica]

Not all of them I have some very leftist friends who are not believers but "believe in belief" as it is often put and consider it a predjudice to be critical of Islam. However you are right there is a lot of secularists on the left who are very vocal about the evils of Islam.

[JohnR22926]

adknerr: Sorry. I follow politics and the amount of contempt displayed by the American Left towards American christian fundamentalism dwarfs that displayed toward Islamic fundamentalism

IMO it's all about politics. Christian fundamentalists are part of the Republican base. Therefore, the Left hates them

Islamic fundamentalists don't play a role in US politics. But, the Reps are opposed to it; Therefore, the Left remains silent, because to oppose it is to give credence to the Rep philosophy

[adknerr]

JohnR22926, to generalize the 'left' as being accepting of radical Islam, simply cannot hold. Firstly, the left is obviously the more secular 'side' and therefor suspect of all organized religion, specifically because of what fundamental sects are capable of. Secondly the left has always been the major voice of civil and woman's rights, both of which are thrown out the window by radical Islam. And thirdly, again, the left is against the occupation of Iraq, which is unrelated to Islam.

[JohnR22926]

adknerr: Let me try again.

I'm not saying the Left "likes" Islamic Fundamentalism...I think they're pretty contemptuous of most religion. My gripe is that the Left does not actively condemn Islamic Fundamentalism. And the reason they don't is that to do so kinda/sorta puts them in the same camp as Bush and the Neocons.

So...the Left largely remains silent about Islam's abuses of women/gays, etc, while at the same time heaping abuse on the much less dangerous Christian Fundamentalists.

[adknerr]

Finally, your non sequitur about 'Islamic fundamentalists don't play a role in US politics', I really don't know where to begin.

The supports of Israel wouldn't need to be so voiced if not for fundamentalist Islam. 9/11 would not have happened if not for radical Islam. How we will handle Iran in the future will be drastically effected by their corrupted form of Islamic theocracy... as well as Pakistan. Do I really need to continue?

[constantijn87]

If you look at what is happening in Europe, where there are no neoconservatives. You will see the same alliance between the left and radical Islam. The reason why the left cant be critical of Islam is because, the left then would have to admit that western culture is in some ways superior. They cant do that, because they think that asserting western superiority is responsible for everything that went wrong in this world.

[JohnR22926]

constant: Good points. You're correct that the Left in Western Europe is also hesitant to take an aggressive stance against Islamic Fundamentalism.

IMO much of the West's embrace of things non-Western is really a rejection of the West driven by Judeo-Christian guilt. Guilt at our sins real and imagined; colonialism, imperialism, hideous wars of ideology, the holocaust, slavery/racism, etc. Why is it only the West is

self-loathing? Other Cultures seem not to have this problem.

[FrankinHolland]

The irony being that the left will be the first people rounded up and beheaded when the time comes. Well, after the jews anyway.

[R0undAboutMidnight]

@FrankinHolland The Left are the reason Jews got to be treated equally in the first place.

[Frodanatee]

@FrankinHolland a painfully true point

[goodbyeislam12]

@constantijn87 you are right and its something I am very sorry about. As a former Muslim I wish that the left would understand that if Islam ever takes over Europe they would have to forsake their liberty to say what they want and its a shame they can't see this.

[badseed136]

Europe doesn´t need neoconservatives. Europe needs leftists nationalists. And it´s happening with the True Finns in Finland and even the Labour Party in Norway is making harder for middle eastern hillbillies to move there.

[MokomaSusi]

@badseed136

True Finns party is indeed quite leftitst. But because they dont support "open borders policy" they are branded far-right party.

[comanchio1976]

@constantijn87 It's taken long enough but even many leftist thinkers in the UK are finally saying enough is enough..and rightly so.

[countertreason]

@JohnR22926 Wow, that is bang on. I agree with that 100%. Good analysis.

[illwrath]

If you're a skeptical atheist, but think conspiracy nut lefts are as crazy as the christian conservatives... you couldn't ask for a better source of rhetoric.

[SockbatReplica]

I agree.. However atleast the dems don't let the 911 truthers into their party so much.. I mean you didn't see a 911 truther as Obama's running mate like you saw McCain making the crazy Jesus lady his running mate.

[JohnR22926]

@SockbatReplica I'm no Palin fan, but comparing her relgious beliefs to a 911 Truther is absurd. The Right wing equivilent of a Truther would be...perhaps...a Birther, or maybe someone who is adament that Obama is a Muslim. I mean, Palin isn't even a fundamentalist, so I don't think her religious beliefs can be described as extreme when compared to the average american.

[Superhaze]

@JohnR22926 Then the average americans religious views are pretty extreme.

[Daoak28]

Hitchens is dead on in his analysis of the modern day left. I have never heard it articulated so well.