Count Fleet

[Kornaus2010]

i would of loved to see count fleet race. wish they would do a movie bout him since it seems like most ppl are forgetting bout him

[Pari28]

For me my all time favorite Triple Crown Winner, it'd definitely have to be Citation <3

Btw, everyone read the book, "Citation," by Phil Georgeff- sooo good. A must read.

[1948BigCy]

@Pari28 I hear you...I love the Count, but Cy's life would made a much better movie...it's got everything...I've already written a script...Phil has read it...I'd love to have him be a technical director...there is somebody else working a a script.,..now we need a director and angels:-)

[eckythimble]

Does anyone know Count Fleet time at the Belmont 10 furlong (1 1/4 mile) mark?

Although time is not everything... am making a list of the fastest 1 1/4 miles in history. To (briefly) add to the Cy debate, Cy ran just 3 lengths off Noor's world record giving Cy a time of 1:58 4/5 which puts him a very respectable 9th on my list of 61 horses so far, ahead of Fager, Slew, Forego, etc. What surprised me was Affirmed up at #5 with a 1:58 2/5. Anyway I need the CF split to get him up off place 61!

[1948BigCy]

@eckythimble Cy lost to Noor by the smallest of margins while Noor was setting world records and Cy was carring sometimes 22 lbs. more. at 5 on those fast CA tracks. Of course, you know that splits within a longer race don't count. Time is such an elusive, dubious criterion...

Count was 2:03.6 20 lengths in the lead in the Belmont, before winning by 25 lengths. Strangely, his time was the same as Cy's, who only won by 8 lengths. No doubt, The Count could have run faster...

[eckythimble]

@1948BigCy For what it's worth Citation looked to me considerably more muscled than Count Fleet, as did War Admiral. I wonder who would have (mainly) won if those three went head to head. I understand when Noor set the old mile WR he carried similar weight to Citation - perhaps the previous losses when he'd been carrying much more had dented Citation's confidence when they finally raced on equal terms? Or was Noor a horse who proved under a good trainer he was also an all-time great?

[1948BigCy]

@eckythimble Cy was bigger than WarAd, who was much smaller than his dad, and The Count who they said looked like a filly. Why Cy lost by 3 lengths when given a pound by Noor in their final race is a puzzle even race experts can't solve. He was being raced alot at 5 by Wright in attempt to win a million$. Did his old injury flare up? He went back East after that race...Noor was unknown and seriously underweighted....Cy could have retired at 5 had this been corrected in time...sigh

[evyn10014]

Kelso had both Count Fleet and MOW's blood in him. No wonder he was so damn good!

[1948BigCy]

@evyn10014 MoW and Sec't were top notch sires, that's for sure...and if you include a horse's career at stud along with his career on the track when adding up the sum of his greatness, Cy falls behind those two...many horses, who are only so-so when they raced, produce great colts and fillys...and vice versa...one of the oddities of horse breeding!!

[evyn10014]

@1948BigCy What do you think of Goldikova and Zarkava, and Zenyatta and RA? And Ruffian... Who's the best filly ever?

[1948BigCy]

@evyn10014 Fillies? Hard to say...so many great ones...Twilight Tear, Calumet, was great; the ones you mention of course; Kostroma; the two warhorses, Kincsem and Sotemia; Busher; Gallorette; Affectionately; Genuine Risk; Personal Ensign...I love to watch them run...Gorella, what a closing kick!

Actually, there seems to be a "Fillie's Lib" movement: the girls are finally getting some respect...Go for Want...Two Lea...Wistful...I love 'em all!!!

[ramairluvr]

@evyn10014 Don't forget about Personal Ensign in that list, my friend.

[1948BigCy]

Arcaro: “Nobody knew how good Count Fleet really was.”

Longdon: “I didn’t have to rate him; he’d rate himself. After I let him go to the front, he never got beat.”..."Count Fleet had speed and I never did ask him to run. Never even shook my stick at him.”

"it was that unknown potential that makes him so intriguing, since he reportedly never broke a sweat from the Champagne Stakes to the Belmont

[evyn10014]

@1948BigCy Exactly. MOW, Citation at 3, Count Fleet... No one knows how fast those horses could have run on their best day on a good track -- cause they never had to run -- they galloped or cantered to victories.

Nice Arcaro quote...

[1948BigCy]

@evyn10014 First part of the quote below: Longdon: "Sec't is a helluva horse, but I don't think he could beat Count Fleet...you'd have to prove it to me..." Arcaro insisted that he never let Cy run...Sande said the same thing about MoW..."Shoemaker tells me that Swaps is the best..." Only jockes can judge speed, class, if their horse is having a good day...how about Ribot and othe great European horses? Quarterhorses?

[evyn10014]

@1948BigCy The thing that seems to be lost on most people is that these horses winning eased up or at a gallop DOES mean they could have run A LOT faster. But their trainers wanted to save them from breaking down. Which CY and MOW never did at 3 -- but Count Fleet did. He hurt himself in the Belmont stretch and ended his career. So we have no idea how fast they could go.

Speaking of breaking down, just read the book on Ruffian, so tragic. That horse was FAST... Sadly not durable though.

[1948BigCy]

@evyn10014 Yup.."Unlike modern Belmont winners, he was galloping the entire race...Average winning times for the Belmont from 1938-1949 was 2:30 flat...The final quarter was done in 24-3/5, a fantastic time considering he was just galloping. Many of the Count’s interior fractions suggested that had he not been eased so early in many of his races, he might have set many more track or world records.”

Jimmy Jones forbid Arcaro to win by more than he had to..Cy apparently liked that demand!

[evyn10014]

@1948BigCy Sea the Stars is an amazing horse, but if you bring that up on most these pages all you hear is he sucks. Uh, no. Winning the Epsom and the Arc the way he did, pretty amazing. Goldikova and Zarkava too.

[1948BigCy]

@evyn10014 Sea-Bird, a champ from France, was the sire of Little Current, who almost won the TC in 1974...The chronicle of racing in Europe is a lifetime study...Heck, Teddy, French, has to be the most prodigious sire in history! The Don Juan of thorougbred racing...the fact that most Americans are ignorant of racing there is just another example of foolish American jingoism...

[sampson1959]

count fleet was very unnoticed.beautiful to look at and fast!greay horse that i rank as number 3.tied with secretariat.same race record,similiar wins especially at belmont.great champion

[evyn10014]

Just amazing how a video about Count Fleet, one of the fastest, gamest horses ever has to be infected by a bunch of comments about how great Secretariat was and how every other horse was second rate. Unreal...

[1948BigCy]

@evyn10014 I agree...they have no manners, just a bunch of immature creeps...if they want to pray at the House of Secretariat, let 'em, I don't care...but they don't have to spread their Gospel at every other site...there's plenty of room for all of us....

[1948BigCy]

@evyn10014 A couple of nauseating Sec idolators do this at any horse site they choose...they are in love with the big chestnut...and of course "love is blind"..."methinks the ladies do protest too much"...

[cf1934]

He looked like he was running easy in all three races!

[gratefultiger]

great stuff sweetheart,love these old american champs.

cheers from an aussie racing freak

[HTKingAbrash]

This is my horses great, great, great, great grandsire.

[BackstretchUnderdog]

I love this guy! 

[cindylou6004able]

Hello carlykaiser just a question, since Count Fleet is your personal favorite tell me what you think of his Belmont as opposed to Secretariats. I really want to know from someone OTHER THAN RSCARBRO100's opinion. I love them both, but feel that Count Fleet doesn't get the accolades he so richly deserves. Just want an unbiased opinion.

[cindylou6004able]

Hi people,

Now come on, please tell me because I can't figure it out, why Count Fleet's Belmont Stakes is not up there or mentioned with Secretariat??? Count Fleet as clearly shown was not ridden out for a record and caught his hoof at the beginning, so really when horses hurt themselves they don't usually win impressive or they lose and have an excuse?

I feel he deserves more credit for his 25 lengths under wraps, would you guys agree?

C

[1948BigCy]

@cindylou6004able : Longden and Hertz always said they were never after time records, as they were out simply to win races. Remember, The Count hurt himself in the Belmont and Hertz never raced him again. True, his opponents in the Belmont were second rate, but after Sham dropped out, Secretariat's opposition was second rate, too.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy Secretariat second rate competition ran that race almost as fast as Count Fleet & Citation. Thats a fact. Whether he had competition or not he still ran it in 2:24 flat & if he did have any competition he would have ran it even faster. Turcotte never urged him on. chic Anderson stated that as well as others. Even Turcotte said he could have ran it faster.

[evyn10014]

@cindylou6004able He should definitely get more credit for the Belmont! If he hadn't hurt himself in the race he might have won by 30 lengths. But he is rated as one of the very best of all time and that's an ungodly club... All the top four or five horses have a legit claim on being the all time best...

Love The Fleet but I think Dr. Fager is more underrated...

[shilodance]

I own an appendix mare who is on her dam's side related to count fleet, her name is fleeting poco ghost. on her sire's side she is related to Harlan and Poco Bueno. She is also related to Man o War, and was nearly sold for horse meat, and was bought for 25 dollars

Go figure.

[fastwest433]

im glad you hung on to the ol girl......she is history

[gratefultiger]

As an Aussie fan of the sport of kings & the noble thoroughbred,it is wonderful to see the champs of the past in action.

We all love a champion & Count Fleet was obviously a great one.

Cheers from Oz ..Chas

[TripleCrownSeeker]

i hope we some day have a triple crown winner at least half as good as count fleet,

[damnthename]

I was fortunate enough to own his one of his granddaughters.

[all66books]

I was unaware of just how great this horse was. Thanks for posting this. What a shame that he couldn't build on his legacy as an older horse.

[bug2bite]

Stoner creek?

[carlykaiser]

Yes.

If you've heard of Hertz Rent A Car, his owner started that.

[rhynes2]

This horse injuried his leg at the start of the Belmont. He still ran like demon on fire. That is Greatness!!!!!!!

[1948BigCy]

The Fleet reminds me of Citation. As Longdon says, he could do everything. He had a perfect record at 3, ended prematurely by a leg injury. One of the great tragedies of horseracing. He is a joy to watch, unspectacular-looking, but running like the wind!

[carlykaiser]

Cy reminds me of fleet..... -.O

But Count Fleet is supr underrated by the general racing public. I am so bummed he got hurt, he was a super horse

[1948BigCy]

Whatever ... you know MY bias, Carly :-). You're undoubtedly right about being underrated (sort of like Cy!). This video is beautiful, showing a horse who just loved to run! Totally dominant, demolishing his opposition, I just love this magnificent colt!

[bgardiner2000]

@carlykaiser Buit rated at 5 all time. He might have been underrated by the general public but the Blood-horse panel of experts obviously rated him. What I can't believe is that all 3 TC races were held in a 4 week period. Cameron thought it would be a good idea to race the week between the Preakness and the Belmont in the Withers "just to keep him sharp." I know Citation did the same. That's some effort.

[whitethronebooks]

@bgardiner2000 Horses were more durable then and could handle it. They are treated like pieces of glass now, because that's what they are.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy His times did not tell he ran like the wind. Like the wind against what he ran against. Both Fleet, MOW & Citation ran against some of the poorest competition ever to run a track. Thats why they won so many races at 3. Check the records. Kelso, Swaps, Dr. Fager, Buckpasser, Secretariat, The Bid & Easy Goer, now them horses ran like the wind.

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 : Too bad the vast majority of race historians disagree with you. MOW, the Count, and Cy would have been monsters whenever they ran. Sec would have been 12 for 12 at 3 except he lost racetrack greats like Onion, Prove Out, and Angle Light. Right...You really ought to learn to write defensively. Johnny Longdon didn't think Secretariat could beat Count Fleet at his best...I tend to believe him more than you...

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy If you know anything about horse racing my good man you know the reason Secretariat lost those 3 races. Steve Haskins from Bloodhorse knew. All the sxperts knew & believe you do as well but won't admit it. Cy was a monster in 1948 against some of the worst competition in history, Same with MOW. Check the records. They don't lie.

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 : My good man, how come EVERY racing authority disagrees with you? William Nack himself wrote (describing Kelso): "Great horses don't need excuses." Guess he changed his mind when writing about Sec. MOW was SO good, he scared off the competition. Cy beat every horse from coast to coast, whatever age, whatever the track, many twice. The Count, unfortunately, we never got to see him much at 3. Oh...all times were slower back then...check the records. Doesn't make them lesser horses.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy Then Cy did not have an excuse when Noor kick his butt 4 times & CY was not running on 3 legs.(smile) Right??

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 : Noor was a GREAT horse. He didn't "kick" Cy's butt; he barely won and had to set world/track records to beat him, while Cy gave him quite a bit of weight. Cy NEVER needed excuses. Anyway, that was when he was 5. Looked at another way, Cy beat every other CA horse except Noor--easily (and set a world record). SMILE.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy Noor was a great horse you say?? Lifetime record only 12 wins of 31 races. 7 of 12 races won in 1950. Seems like the only horse he could beat was Citation on some of the worlds fastest tracks. Secretariat M>C. 'pullin up' in 1:57 4/5 for a 1 1/4 mile on a 'Wet Fast'' track. Don't beleive me, ask Whitney Tower. He was there. Just think what his time would have been on one of those west coast tracks & he was only 3 years old. Thats like runnin on 3 legs.(smile)

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 Noor is in the HoF and is one of Bloodhorses top 100. Out west (once again), he broke several track and world records. Since you think absolute time is everything, I expect you are impressed by this (SMILE).

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy You said it right. Out west at Golden Gate. The fastest track known to man. Ran that mile in 1:33 3/5. It has been shattered on slower tracks. Secretariat went through the 1 mile mark in 1:33 flat on a 'Wet Fast' track in the M.C.. Went real wide in the turn to do that & still had another 1/8 mile to go. 1:34 2/5 mile in the Belmont on a slower track that Golden Gate & still had another 1/2 mile to go. Yes, I am impressed with my (smile) (smile) (smile).

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy Watch the M.C. race of Secretariat my good man. Blow the screen up. Easy to see he was slowed up twice before the last turn. Went real wide in that turn & passed the 1 mile post in 1:33 flat going on another furlong to set a world record easy & not a whip to him. The fastest mile CY ever ran was 1:33 3/5 on that super fast west coast track & he was 5 years old. Dead in his prime..(smile)

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 Stop already. Cy at 5 was not the Cy of 3. Everybody knows this except you.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy No, not everyone knows that. Who told you he was not 100%?? Phil Georgeff?? He was not a veterinarian, I never heard a expert made the statement CY was never 100% in all those races. A few maybe but not the ones he lost to Noor. When CY won they said he was back but when he lost it was the injury. This running on 3 legs just don't cut it. Secretariat cam back against Onion & made him look silly when he was not sick & you know it. CY tried 4 times against Noor but Noor was faster.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy Cigar should be ranked right with Citation. Both won 16 straight races. CY won the 16 straight races & he was the best you say but Noor beat CY but had one of the worst records ever but he was great. Was it his speed??

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 I've answered these charges many times. Cy won 15 straight races in ONE YEAR. Cigar didn't come close.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy Were does it make Citation better if he did it in the same year. Still both won 16 stragiht any way you look at it. Cigar ran against better competition IMO as well.

There is nothing wrong you thinking Citation was the best BigCY. That is your right & I respect that but disagree respectively. CY competition was much better than MOW & believe he was faster as well. Getting mad at me you should not. Have 'Class' like you said Citation had. Here is that (smile) again.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy OK my friend. Do me a favor & put Secretariat under a microscope & at every angle. I did both. What disapointed me was CY competition not so much his times as a 3 year old.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy After ready Steve Haskins article & cannot remember now the name of it But he stated Big Red need then hard workouts because he was such a fat baby with plently of muscles. It took them hard workouts to keep him in top form. This wass one of the reason he said he was not prepared for the Woodward race. If he ran more often he might have perfored even better. Yes, with all those races CY had no doubt he was very tired in some of them. You may have something there.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy A quote from Steve Haskins:

You have to remember, this is a horse who worked a mile for the Whitney in the mud in 1:34 4/5 after splits of :57 2/5, 1:09 1/5, and 1:21 3/5. His mile time was a track record at Saratoga, as was his 1 1/8-mile gallop-out in 1:47 4/5. The gallop-out time was a full second and two-fifths faster than the final time of the Whitney.

In "MUD" my frined!

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 He lost the Whitney, BTW....

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy You cannot except the true fact Secrtetariat had a fever in the Whitney. Goes to show you those fast workoouts I mention in "MUD' was not the same horse in the Whitney & you want everyone to believe that CY excuse when he lost all those races at 5 & 6 were froma leg injury. He ran faster at 5 than he did at 3. He just met better competition. Do you really think he could have ran a 1:57 4/5 1 1 /4 mile?? If he could Secretariat did it in a gallop out.on a 'Wet Fast' track.

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 "Great horses don't need excuses." quoth Bill Nack, Sec Guru.

Unlike you guys, I don't claim Cy was the best horse ever. But he did have a sophomore year that I think is beyond reproach, without excuses.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy Nack knew Secretariat was better than CY or any horse, By lengths he said. Citation did have a spectacular sophormore season. No doubt about that. But you & several others gave excuse why he lost to Bewitch & Saggy not to mention all them losses to Noor & others in his 5 year of running. If you do not believe CY was the best then you sure got me fooled here.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy I believe that CY. I really do. CY was a much better horse than Saggy & Bewitch. Yes, that is an explanation just like Secretariat when he lost to Onion. It was not made-up. He had to miss the upcoming Travers because of his sickness. Any horse that could work out the fractions like he did in 'Mud' then a week later lose that bad then common sense would tell anyone something was wrong.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy Very few horses ever broke the sound barrier on a east coast track. That sound barrier is running a 1 1/4 mile under 2 minutes. Big Red did it many times. Citation, Affirmed & even The Bid did not. They had to go out west young man on those hard concrete surfaces to get under 2 minutes & all of them were 4 years old or older. Slew never got under 2 minutes east , west , north or south under 2 minutes. (smile)

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 : Which proves nothing except absolute times are meaningless. I don't intend to go over this again with you, as you will never understand. Why don't you leave this site and take your demented delusions to a Sec site, where at least you'll be among uncritical friends. I'm going to delete all my comments here; if you have a shred of decency, you'll do the same. No matter what your opinion, this site is about the GREAT COUNT....(smile)

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy If its about the Count why then you mention Citation here?? I went to the Citation site but is dead as usual. Yelp, the Secretariat place is always buzzin & we all know why. A lot of excitment. The Count was a great horse in the 40's. I can see a little Secretariat in him.(SMILE) I still think of the Master Eddie Arcaro that jockey that rode so many great horses but rated Big Red the best.

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 I simply called them both great, underrated horses. Secretariat is overrated by all and a silly movie about him is coming out soon--wow...Arcaro always called Cy the best. But you, like all Sec idolators, believe what you want to believe. Who cares? (I've already asked Carly to remove all my comments here. Why don't you do the same?)

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy Carly can delete what she wants my good man. I am only telling the truth. Did not make anything up here at all. Why can't you accept the truth CY. I am not putting The Count or CY down. They did what they did & so did the other horses only Secretariat done it better. Why do you not accept Eddie words with Bill Christine interview?? He did not make it up nor did Eddie for heavens sake.

[1948BigCy]

@rscarbro100 : It is YOU who cannot accept the truth. Sec was fast, but absolute speed is only part of a horse's makeup. No one knows how fast Cy, MOW or Count could have run...they were never asked. They ran on slower tracks and many other variables make TIME a poor way to judge a horse. The pros know this. Sec didn't come close to performing the miracles Cy did at 3. FACT.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy Now Cy, you know that is not correct good buddy. First CY ran out west on those fast tracks as a 5 & 6 year old as you every well know. Went against Noor 4 times & ran fast as he could but lost all 4 times. He was asked to go faster. Watch the 1948 Belmont race. The master hit him several times with the whip going down the strecth, Wasn't asked to go faster? Not true.

[rscarbro100]

@1948BigCy MOW ran at Kenilworth Park when he beat Sir Barton. That track was hard as concrete. Some blame the loss for Sir Barton because he ran on a very hard surface of Kenilwoth with sore hoofs. Exterminartor was not even invited. Wonder why?? Secretariat ran on a 'Wet Fast' track at Belmont & tied The Bid record unoffically in 1:67 4/5 galloping out. These are true facts CY you just cannot & will not accept.. Ask Steve Haskins & Whitney Tower. I am very sorry if this makes you mad.

[evyn10014]

@1948BigCy Aye

[BE109]

Count Fleet seems to be left out of the greatest of all conversation. In my opinion he deserves a front row seat. THE END ILLUSTRATES HIS COMPETITIVE FIRE!

[Venya9]

wow I love the last few sentences in this video, they were touching. Love this stallion.

[Barbaro123456]

Great job!

[carlykaiser]

I didn't make it.

[ojososo]

thanks anyway

[cf1970]

Count Fleet was absolutely fantastic! Truly a legend. Thanks Carly. Take care.