How to make sense of Conspiracy Theories - pt 4 of 9

[casper123]

Very interesting Rob, keep up the videos!

[SolarFireflies]

Good man. You've said everything I've been thinking myself.

[itputsthelotion1]

Thanks for acknowledging the fact that Wikipedia is an unreliable source of information.

[TKMSeznam12]

Believing in Conspiracy Theories unknowingly shouldn't be categorized the same way as believing outlandish, obviously incorrect theories (9/11, Govt. cover up of Aliens, etc). The world is generally run on misinformation, this is one facet of power plays. But people who actively believe and propagate Conspiracy theories that have no data supporting them, evidence, or are simply foolish are, if anything, simply feeding the people who want those theories to succeed.

[robag88]

@TKMSeznam12 Anyone can claim outright that a theory is "obviously" correct or incorrect, but that doesn't make it so. Only rational, independent research and debate can resolve such issues. I agree they shouldn't be categorized the same. Gov and military propagated conspiracy theories should be considered far more dangerous than those propagated by average citizens. The former lead to mass death and destruction on a global scale, inc. just about every war of the last century.

[ccheng21]

@peninsularat robag88 has used this technique before, "Everyone is a conspiracy theorist" . Nope, not so.

Facts are always facts, they themselves are neutral have no political, economic or social agenda and those facts always point to the truth.

Would he agree, that Evolutionary Biologists are merely conspiracy theorists who support evolutionary biology?

Are Mechanics, just conspiracy theorists who use engineering rather than magic?

of course not.

[robag88]

@ccheng21 And you've been posting counter arguments on my videos for a long time. That's your prerogative, and I'm happy to respond, but I wonder why you would subscribe and follow my videos if you disagree with them all. ...

[robag88]

@robag88 Your arguments about science mismatch what is already outlined in pt 1 of this vid on what constitutes a conspiracy theory. Pretty much all science is theory (there isn't even consensus on the "scientific method"), but a person's opinion of science can only be a "conspiracy theory" if they attribute intended group secrecy.

[ccheng21]

@robag88 I find them worthy of some level of entertainment value, there is one constant theme that I find always repeating itself in your videos: you see patterns where there necessarily are no patterns.

Your video on subliminal messages in advertisement, something that science has thoroughly disproven, subliminal messages are impossible and simply don't work.

even your video on the "spacial" anomalies in The Shining, also looking for more than there really is.

[robag88]

@ccheng21 How are they entertaining if you disagree with most of the content? I've seen videos on here claiming patterns that I believe are incidental, but I'm not drawn back to those users for months after, nor do I need to convince them of my disagreement. Rather than debate the merits of the vids you mentioned (I think it would be a waste of time with you) tell me, are there videos of mine that you agree with? Roughly, what percentage of the patterns I present do you agree with?

[robag88]

@ccheng21 No answer. That's exactly what I expected.

[TheMercilessEye]

@ccheng21 If you think there is nothing subliminal in ADVERTISING, then you're a bigger imbecile than you appear to be in these comments. I WORK in advertising, bucko, and I'm here to tell you, advertising is FULL of subliminal messages. "Science has thoroughly disproven" it, eh? On WHAT PLANET, moron? Yeah...there are no subliminal messages in advertising...on NEPTUNE... LOLOL

[llaevigrof]

Personally I believe our whole history since well before 'Genesis' has been a conspiracy of 'hidden history' by a few. I think we are in a sense, the baby cultivated in the fields of the matrix..."bound" in so many levels. People are finally digging up truths slowly, yet each of us has our 'truth' colored by our own experiences and beliefs. It makes life both interesting and confusing. signed Conspiracy Theorist :)

[JuanDeSoCal]

@llaevigrof

The fact that you believe in the literal truth of Genesis makes me discount just about every thing you say.

[llaevigrof]

@JuanDeSoCal not sure where your coming from there. But you again can believe/discount whatever you want ... you can discount everything I say. Discount away. You are not saying anything to communicate to me? Have a good day!

[llaevigrof]

It is interesting, I have heard my whole life about the 6 million Jews murdered  by Hitler, as I recall, yet why do you rarely here about the 66 million of Russians murdered in the Bolshevik revolution in gulag slave camps? Or only God knows how many native American Indians were murdered as the white man 'usurped' America? That is another conspiracy theory..who is controlling 'history'?

[JuanDeSoCal]

@llaevigrof

That is the most ridiculous statistic ever. That would be about one in three of the whole population. Basically, during the cold war Western propagandists came up with inflated statistics. And now it's like a meme that never dies or has to bear scrutiny.

[llaevigrof]

@JuanDeSoCal hey you can believe whatever you want ...it was what I read in several books and what I understand to be a factual books...they were gulag work prisoners.. many. ... I guess you can just about refute anything can't you.

[robag88]

@peninsularat You shouldn't trust what I'm saying. If you did then this video would have taught you nothing. Regarding your grandfather, assuming he's honest with you about what he saw (which I've no reason to doubt) he only witnessed a tiny fraction of WW2. Most of the debates I've witnessed regarding the holocaust are disputes over scale and who exactly was being killed, but the mainstream media makes out that anyone asks questions about it is a holocaust denier.

[robag88]

@robag88 One thing I noticed, going by official historical records, is that over 50 million people died globally in WW2. The frequent misrepresentation of it as a primarily Jewish tragedy, when in fact millions of non-jews on all sides died in concentration camps too, has caused a backlash of anti-semitism, as has Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Other aspects that make ppl question WW2 include the massive support given to Hitler by Wall St and the Business Plot of 1933.

[tube17968]

@robag88 I think the issue is that, in the beginning of this video, you have made it seem as if "the holocaust happened" and "the holocaust never happened" are two equal conspiracy theories with an equal amount of validity and evidence to support them. That isn't realistic.

[robag88]

@tube17968 My belief is based on photos, videos, text - which can be faked or presented out of context. Though I believe it would be extremely difficult to create such a huge myth, I have no direct experience of it, so I trust consensus opinion. They're not equal theories, but they're both theories. And like I've said, the controversies are more about holocaust scale, Israel's treatment of Palestinians today and the other 50 million or so mostly ignored WW2 deaths. That's realistic.

[robag88]

@peninsularat Sorry but our realities are mostly constructed of assumptions. We assume we're third planet from the sun because of diagrams drawn in books. We assume the universe started with a big bang because guys in white coats say so. Others in history would have called us crazy for thinking such things and they were as certain of their reality as you of yours. Our perceived reality is mostly best guesses based on assumptions that we can trust the claims of particular sources.

[nusquamesse1248]

All this makes me think of the Popish Plot and the Gunpowder Plot. Robert Cecil was a master at the construction and execution of broad conspiracies.

[klard]

Everything in our society is a conspiracy. That is how business is done.

[xwsftassell]

Good one, Rob.

[kaktuscar86]

I can only say... EXCELLENT!

[phire42]

@robag88. God can not be proven to exist... but it also can not be proven to NOT exist. If you can't prove it either way, I accept that whatever you believe is as good as whatever anyone else believes. Evolution, The Holocost, etc... CAN be proven one way or the other, and HAVE. The Loose Change movie has all types of "proof" that the pentagon was shot with a missile, but everything in that movie has been debunked and showed to be out of context etc, Conspiracy fantasy.

[robag88]

@phire42 Ok, I believe the holocaust happened because I've seen lots of photos and documentation about it, but I don't know that those materials are 100% genuine. Can you prove that the kind of distortion of information that you attribute to "everything" in the Loose Change film didn't also occur in how the holocaust has been historically recorded?

[JuanDeSoCal]

@robag88

There are far, far too many eyewitness accounts of the Nazi extermination camps by soldiers of the Allied forces for there to be any doubt of the existence of the program. The only other explanation would be completely implausible—that thousands of average American, British and Soviet soldiers (along with those of other countries), colluded in fabricating stories about the existence of these camps.

[robag88]

@JuanDeSoCal But have you personally met all those eye witnesses to confirm their statements weren't fabricated or distorted by other people? And by the same logic do you think it implausible the Nazis could keep a lid on it before being defeated? I'm not saying I disagree with you. I'm merely demonstrating that the insistence of required "100% proof or you're nuts" argument thrown around against people who distrust their governments today is applicable to many accepted historical conspiracies.

[Jove89]

@robag88 I met one. My grandma. That's enough for me. :)

[robag88]

@Jove89 That's good enough for me too because I'm assuming you're honest. As I mentioned to another user I think holocaust denial and revisionism (usually mistakenly labelled as denial) is a backlash against Israel's treatment of Palestinians (holocaust denial is very high among Palestinians) and the presentation of WW2 as a Jewish tragedy, which ignores approx 50 million other WW2 deaths. And there's other holocausts that are somehow considered less important. - eg Native Americans.

[robag88]

@JuanDeSoCal The containment of opinion through mass fabrication of testimony, or suppression of genuine testimony by whistle blowers and eye witnesses, was achieved by the Nazis, according to out shared conspiracy theory about secret concentration camps. If it can happen in that context, why can't it happen elsewhere? This truth that much of our accepted "reality" is based upon trust in the word of people we've never met is the reason every aspect of history should remain open to question.

[JuanDeSoCal]

@robag88

I see your point. The fact is, we accept almost everything we feel we "know" on faith, if we really examine it out. For instance, how do we know for sure that there was an English (or American) Civil War? Did you personally see the battles? No, we have only documents, perhaps photos, and the work of historians to point to as evidence. But how can we prove 100% that all of that wasn't fabricated? You can't, but you don't even try because to do so would be profoundly paranoid, right?

[robag88]

@JuanDeSoCal Many non-paranoid people ask questions. History has taught them to do that. We firmly believe that the Nazis were able to reel off masses of propaganda against the jews and then run a massive network of secret extermination camps and keep a lid on it despite thousands of personnel taking part. Yet you claim such grand scale lying is impossible and that people who entertain the thought of such a massive lie today are paranoid. You're ignoring the history you claim to believe in.

[JuanDeSoCal]

@robag88

Too vague. What are you taking about? What nefarious, secret events are supposedly occurring today that thousands of people are involved in covering up? In regard to the Nazi genocidal program, plenty of people who were not directly, officially involved in it knew what was going on, or at least suspected. So, the "lid" you speak of was at least slightly askew on the pot. There is plenty of witness testimony in regard to that. Unless, of course, they're all lying, right?

[robag88]

@JuanDeSoCal There was nothing vague about it. Your response demonstrates the point that you believe grand conspiracies happened in the past (which I agree with) but can't happen now. That is no more logical than holocaust denial is.

As for your claim that the lid was slightly askew regarding the Nazi genocidal program, yes I agree, but it wasn't enough. Germans who warned against Nazism were diregarded as CRAZY or commies.

[JuanDeSoCal]

(continuing) Yes, at some point skepticism does just become paranoia. And, btw, if you look over my posts, I never claimed anything is "impossible." Generally, I rate things on a spectrum of likelihood. IMO, it is highly, highly likely the Nazi genocide did occur. The eyewitness testimony (thousands), film reels documenting vast piles of starved corpses, the captured documents, the physical apparatus, etc etc. The evidence is just far too overwhelming.

[robag88]

@JuanDeSoCal Ok so you think it highly likely that the holocaust occurred, but you call those who question it crazy. That's a contradiction. Personally, I keep an open mind on everything. There are lots of examples of conspiracies involving thousands of people - major military operations for a start such as Pearl Harbour. How about Operation Paperclip, the Tuskegee Experiment, Operation Northwoods (proposed but not enacted) or MKULTRA? Unless you think they're fabricated.

[JuanDeSoCal]

@robag88

What was the Pearl Harbor conspiracy? Those other ones you mentioned that I have some familiarity with were not, or would not, be on the scale of a conspiracy to fabricate the Nazi genocidal program. If you take your approach to its logical conclusion, you will need to suspect that every aspect of what you take to be reality is a false front—perhaps something along the lines of the situations depicted in The Matrix or The Truman Show. Not impossible, but paranoid if you believe it.

[robag88]

@JuanDeSoCal Pearl Harbour not a conspiracy? The japs spent months conducting a disnfo campaign of false radio messages to make the Americans think any likely attack would be near Australia. They used multiple types of encryption in their codes, and even when several of them were broken they still didn't contain actual details of what was coming. They even used civilian weather reports to encode messages of attack details because they knew the Americans wouldn't be looking there for clues.

[robag88]

@robag88 And how do you know how many people were involved in the other examples? It took over 30 years before the whistle was blown on the Tuskegee experiment with lots of clinicians and government depts being aware of it throughout. The scale of MKULTRA still isn't known because the CIA destroyed records, though it is claimed to have occurred across several countries with thousands of subjects for at least ten years ...

[robag88]

@robag88 ... Op Northwoods talked of staging multiple terror attacks and assassinations using false evidence, victims and family members. That would involve potentially thousands of people. I'm sorry to break it to you but the complexity with which military and psychological ops are conducted goes beyond the average person's habitual perception, but that doesn't mean that people who are aware of it and willing to explore the possibilities are crazy - quite the opposite actually.

[robag88]

@robag88 Regarding the holocaust I haven't heard anyone claim that no jews were killed whatsoever, apart from anonymous online sources who can't be trusted (for reasons that will be covered later in this video). So it's generally a question of scale. Let's say there are enough witnesses and other evidence to prove say only 100,000 deaths or even half a million. That would leave a huge question over how the rest came to be reported. The point is people are not crazy for questioning it.

[JuanDeSoCal]

@robag88

(continuing) ... In the case of those who would deny the existence of the Nazi genocidal program, I see those who are determined to hold a belief that suits their prejudices, regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, There is a point at which a demand for 100% conclusive proof becomes either delusional and paranoid or deliberately misleading. Events in human affairs cannot be "proven" in the same sense that statements in mathematics can.

[robag88]

@JuanDeSoCal At what exact point does it become paranoid? Who has the authority to declare that? IMO if a person simply believes the holocaust didn't happen, but it doesn't cause them to hurt anyone and they're otherwise living a normal and productive life then neither you or I or anyone else has the right to force our opinion upon them. If they're going out and beating Jewish people up or telling others to do so then we step in, but Orwellian thought control is a no go.

[phire42]

I think the difference between conspiracy fact and conspiracy fantasy should also be explored. In science, even established facts are still called theories (The theory of relativity, the theory of gravity, etc.) because of the notion that science is open to the possibility of being wrong.

This is how you characterize ALL conspiracy theories. But those who are stereotyped as conspiracy theorists are categorized that way because they believe in conspiracy fantasy... verses conspiracy facts.

[phire42]

@phire42 The Holocost has been pretty much proven to be fact. So anyone who theorizes about that conspiracy, is considered sane and rational. Anyone who denies it, is considered a conspiracy theorist of the stereotypical type.

[phire42]

@phire42 But to lump both conspiracy fantasy and conspiracy fact together and say that we are all conspiracy theorist and therefore we shouldn't decry some of them as crazy is like saying the theory of evolution is just a theory, and despite the overwhelming evidence to the FACT that we evolve from lower species we should consider the FANTASY of creationism as outlined in the Christian Bible as equally valid with the only evidence being the Bible.

[robag88]

@phire42 I disagree. One can argue that god can't be proven to exist, but that doesn't make believers crazy ... esp considering many top scientsts believe in god (I'm an agnostic myself). People get many things wrong in life, including you and I. If a person should be decried crazy because they get one particular thing wrong then we're all crazy. The way to treat ppl who have the wrong idea about something is to reason it out with calm discussion, not to demonize them as mentally ill.

[morelshaman]

Wouldn't Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny be the most believed of all C.T.?

[theendofconfusion]

@morelshaman By definition, parents would be conspirators when they trick kids into thinking that Santa and the Easter Bunny are real.

[robag88]

@morelshaman Funnily enough that'll be mentioned in part 6 as a quote by a very high placed academic :)

[ahrustem]

"How do corporate media sources decide what is and isn't a conspiracy theory?" - next part sounds juicy. Can't wait!

Great stuff as usual Rob! Keep it up mate.

[Fistwagon]

Recently here in Sweden, politican Egon Frid was "caught" supporting the 9-11 Truth movement and was subsequently ridiculed from all directions. In a TV interview (interrogation) he retracted all his support. The interview was accompanied by footage of an expert stating how dangerous this type of conspiracy theory can be. Just thought I'd share that little story.

[robag88]

@Fistwagon What lesson did you take from that, who was the expert and in what way dangerous?

[Fistwagon]

@robag88 I believe the "expert" was a social scientist, he drew parallels to nazism as they always do. It was a blatant example of the media bullying a free thinker into submission. This happens to be a politician whom I dislike and not only for his cowardly behaviour in this thing. The 9-11 truth movement also, I feel, is staring blindly at a fly in a poisoned soup, yet I still see how wrong his treatment was. Everyone needs to see this series..

[thumminxy]

Sober without being boring.

Good job mate.

[Electrorules]

Great series Rob, looking forward to part 5 :)

[maraminjo]

@Electrorules Same here.

[arnygumball]

always good content from this guy