If you want to be political about it, you could argue that Conservatives, mainly Conservative Republicans, always say how less or no government is needed. But, it seems to me that intruding into the bedroom would be far more government. Conservative Republicans want to outlaw abortion and gay marriage, as well as many other things, yet say that the country needs far less government intervention. Contradiction?
Nearly everyone on the planet is "pro-life." Where so many "pro-lifers" mess up is that they insinuate that you are either "pro-life" or you are pro-death. "Pro-choice" people are capable of having and raising children, hence the "choice" part.''
Im not, in any way, against abortion and I'll tell you why. If abortions were illegal, think fo how many more resource consuming people would be on earth. The earth is way overpopulated as it is. Another point i'd like to make is, think of how many of those aborted babies wouldve turned out to be murderers, rapists, pedophiles, or other types of menaces to society. Once aborted, the baby goes straight to heaven to be with God anyways. After taking these into consideration, abortion isnt all bad.
The idea that we cant stop abortions so why have a law is equally applicable to every crime. Making something illegal is as much about a statement of societies principals as it is prohibiting the action.
yah that is pretty lame of them...I'm pro solution...I don't like baby's being killed or mom's being forced into something there not ready for (they did have sex knowing the risks though)...maybe that makes me pro adoption.
@cher716 - Not all women (and girls) get pregnant because they "have sex knowing the risks." Many get pregnant because they DON'T know the "risks" or even what birth control IS; or often because they were raped. Not just that, but some people need to abort because later on they find out that having a baby could kill them (and sometimes also the baby). Good to hear you're pro-solution though! I would like to adopt someday.
CONTINUED: its also easy to pick on a website that clearly makes no sense but i dont find humor on a topic like this educational for anyone, just an easy way to establish where people already stand. I think death is saddest when it means the prevention of future projects or aspirations, which is why when a young person dies its the saddest when an older person dies we r sad but more so for the people left behind, if u view death similarly you see y abortion being legal is so heartbreaking
@CoolBeanSquadron i just explained why i find abortion tragic so if you read my comment you should know why i think itd make the world a better place. ALSO over 50% of abortions are by minors, do you really think they would seek out a black market abortion or even have the means to do that...theyre minors that would be out of the question for most of them. maybe thered be more responsibility but maybe not, either way you cant make laws based off how people will react to them
@misremembered72 all I see is people forced into poverty for children they didn't want / couldn't afford. Foster care and adoption are already over capacity (the people running them are doing their best). Children who will never know a stable loving home.I find that pro lifers don't see the big picture of the quality of life of these millions of unwanted + the millions more that would be added if abortion was made illegal. I believe every child should be wanted, loved and well provided for
@misremembered72 do you honestly think it's fair to force a 15 year old girl to have a baby when she is a baby. Unless her parents are well off and can help her raise a child, that girls life is going to be shit,on welfare can't get an education and little hope of ever digging herself out of it. All because she made a bad decision when she was barely out of junior high
@CoolBeanSquadron i appreaciate your stance and i do see where you are coming from, i completely agree sex ed is nowhere near where it needs to be. IMO if abortion was made illegal sex ed, parents and schools would be forced to react creating better sex ed, instead of having teachers wing it and parents too embarrassed to say anything. If the girl who is 15 has a kid its not the laws job to cater to people who have made an irresponsible decision. two wrongs never make a right
@misremembered72 Access to birth control is another area that needs to be greatly improved. Netherlands boasts the lowest abortion rate in the world, about 6 abortions per 1000 women per year, Yet it`s available on demand.their rates are so low because 1) they educate 2) contraception is easily available. This is the route I would like to see Canada take in helping reduce the rates
@CoolBeanSquadron well i completely agree with your second post that available contraception and education are whats lacking. and i appreciate this little debate because youve made solid points but i think if the US (or canada) was more like the netherlands eventually orphanages wouldnt be stretched so thin as they currently are and that 16 year old could put her baby up for adoption.
@CoolBeanSquadron I know you think living in an orphanage would be horrible for most kids but i just read a book by a trouble chicano youth who grew up in an orphanage cause no one cared about him in his family ended up in jail but eventually started writing poetry and know hes an author. this isnt a typical case but youd abort this child because his parents were young and he had no home. he had a terrible rough youth but hes thriving now. existing is always better than not
@CoolBeanSquadron and we're all just cells and dead skin, just because someone is unwanted doesnt mean you can treat it like something. i dont think we'll ever agree so i dont want to drag this out too long but feel free to comment back but ill probably only respond once more
@misremembered72 I`m sorry but after you see your friend kicked out for being pregnant at 16 you might not think of it that way.A teenager isn`t being irresponsible they lack the emotional responsibility to comprehend full consequences of their actions. If a 10 year old got pregnant would you say the same thing
@CoolBeanSquadron and ive explained why i think the act of abortion is so wrong. I could be wrong but you seem to be addressing the aftermath of abortions and not the actual process. the world might be a better place overall if say for example every child born with a deformity was aborted but the act itself is completely wrong and there are many people out there with deformitys and odds stacked against them that excelled in life
@misremembered72 the actually process is a simple surgery to remove an unwanted clump of cells in my opinion, No late term abortions are preformed unless medically necessary at least in my country.And as for the birth defects some are minor or purely aesthetic. But in the case of severe birth defect like Acephlous and Cyclopia (don't google them their pretty horrific) I find it cruel and unusual to force some one to continue the pregnancy to term against their wishes.
PRO LIFE COMMENT (oh shit) an argument that people would still seek out abortions is like saying murder could never be legal for the sole purpose that people would still commit it. Without going into the argument when life starts, who are you to say (more like imply) that most people who would get an abortion would seek illegal measures to get one if it was against the law. If it became illegal sex ed would increase as well as the use of safe contraceptives.
@misremembered72 making abortion illegal wouldn't make people make better choices. better sex ed would, education and information are crucial.I was lucky enough to get very sound sex ed and then got even better sex ed when i joined the gay straight alliance since they cover a much more varied subject then just standard straight sex.
I am proud to say that all this was vital to me having never been pregnant or contracting an STD
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Abortion is great! I love abortion! I watched "Silent Scream" and thought it was wonderful. I think all babies should be aborted as a mass excercise of women's reproductive rights! And, just to be clear, the term "reproductive rights" never means anything other than "termination of pregnancy".
You know what a good "reproductive right" really is? Keeping your fucking legs closed.
@CSK225 What else should "reproductive rights" mean? Or are you one of those people who thinks that men also deserve a say in women's pregnancy, despite the fact that they don't have the ability to get pregnant?
I also enjoy the "keeping your fucking legs closed" comment, because you make it sound as if women are they only participants in unplanned pregnancy.
@Abbytater Women are most certainly NOT the only participants in an unplanned pregnancy! Men are as much responsible and should be held such. However, he should have a say if he's to be held responsible. You can't have it both ways (that's hypocrisy). As far as the keep your legs closed comment goes; it's the easiest way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy (go ahead and deny it). PS... taxes shouldn't be used to pay for abortions. Pay for it yourself.
@CSK225 I chose to not keep my legs crossed thank you very much.I chose to be responsible and use contraception and if ever that contraception should fail I will always have options including abortion (p.s the cost of an unwanted child in foster care is way higher for the tax payer than an abortion)
@CSK225 You know what reproductive rights are? Safe, affordable access to pap smears and breast exams. Safe and affordable contraception so women and men can continue to have sex while minimizing unplanned pregnancies. Safe maternal and infant care to lower the maternal death rate in the US (which is astonishingly high considering how much money we spend on healthcare.) And yes, safe and affordable access to abortion.
@Xeginy Do you honestly think Planned Parenthood would be around were abortion illegal? No, they wouldn't. That's the only "reproductive right" they have an interest in. All those other non-rights you mentioned are just as available at any hospital or clinic.
@CSK225 Okay, lets assume abortion were illegal. Assuming that laws surrounding birth control were not affected, PP would still very much be in business. The vast majority of their services have to do with contraceptives and STI testing. So saying that PP is only interested in abortion is untrue. Also, have you tried to get an abortion at PP? Their family planning program will cover pap smears and birth control, but if you want an abortion, you pay upfront, in cash. They're not free.
@CSK225 abortion is 3% of what they do, the other 97% is offer medical testing (sti, pap smears, mammograms) and family planning (information and birth control) to lower income people can't afford to go to a hospital or clinic, and until the united states has universal heath care PP will always offer an important service to communities in need
@CoolBeanSquadron Moron.... 51.5% of Planned Parenthood clinic income comes from abortion. 46.5% came from government sources (this means tax money for you simpletons out there). This should make it relatively clear where the bread and butter is for PP.
@CSK225 YES they make soooo much money on 500 dollar abortions ( after the cost of medication, sterilizing medical equipment, the doctor's pay, the aftercare nurse). They're just rolling in money that's why they need privet donations so badly
@CSK225 so you've never had sex, and when you do it will be for reproduction only then? cuz that what the keeping you legs crossed argument means to me and if you have sex without trying to conceive your a hypocrite
@CoolBeanSquadron - I take responsibility for the actions I take. I am not a hypocrite. You are stupid. It doesn't matter what it means to you. What it means is simple, which is why you don't understand. It's simply this: if you do not want a child so bad you are willing to kill it then you should keep your legs closed until such time you wouldn't kill it. People get pregnant using conception fairly often. Use it all you want but if you get knocked up then deal with it.
@CSK225 you seem to think it's every women's goal in life to eventually squeeze out a baby. I never want children EVER and and am unable to get my tubes tied do to age restrictions. Quite frankly I enjoy having a a sex life and living in fear of my vagina seem's ridiculous to me.If some one has three children and can't afford another one what are they going to do, never have sex with their spouse again just in case?
@CSK225 on a side not you have made several jabs at my intelligence, I have never done the same to you. All I have done is make several solidly based arguments and bought up several hypothetical situations. If your so insecure in your argument that you feel the need to call some one names then make a better one.
This is hilarious. They vow to give up crap until a woman's right to seek a legal and safe medical procedure is taken away. Good for them. Not only can woman continue to have their reproductive rights but now more Americans will start to eat healthier. It's a win win for everyone.
OMG!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!! You have out profounded yourself!! Just when I thought you couldn't say anything more astute than you already had, you drop this!! I have got to get my husband to start watching you!
I SENSE A LOT OF "AGEISM" HERE. IT'S JUST AS BAD AS RACISM. YOU THINK YOU HAVE MORE RIGHTS THAN AN UNBORN BECAUSE OF IT'S STAGE IN DEVELOPMENT. BECAUSE I SEE A LOT OF DIFFERENCES IN AN UNBORN CHILD, A TODDLER, AN ADOLESENT, TEENAGER, AND AN ADULT!
@senstrom1, Isn't the female body a collection of cells?
I think the difference is that the female body does not abort a fertilized egg unless there are complications with it.
But because it's a natural thing that would be different then physically removing an attached egg. One is released naturally by the body, the other is forced.
It's very possible that the biologically natural, instantaneous aborted egg wasn't alive so the body release it. Where if it is still attached it's alive.
@senstrom1, Perhaps an acorn is a different stage then that of the oak tree that comes from the seed? Perhaps an egg is a starting stage for a chicken?
What do you consider the potential of life? Are you meaning that a sperm and an egg are the potential for life or is it still just the potential of life after they are joined together? Because once they sperm and the egg are joined they are a new creation. Instead of 23 chromosomes, there is not 46.
...i don't know what you are getting at. Abortion is a right for women BECAUSE a cluster of dividing cells cannot trump the rights of the mother. A woman does not have to justify to anyone on why she's getting an abortion because no harm is being done and thus, it is none of your/our business.
@Zackerybob, You claim that it's just a cluster of dividing cells. Because of that you say the woman doesn't have to justify anything, is that correct?
If so, then I would agree with you 100%; the woman doesn't have to justify aborting a cluster of cells.
But what if that cluster of cells really is an unborn human person from the first time that cell splits.
If that is true, should we allow an unborn human child to be aborted?
Judging from your questions, you lack basic understanding of biology and embryology. We KNOW that it is not an "unborn human" because what makes us human (the frontal cortex of the brain) does not exist within the first 5-6 months. Scientists have come to this conclusion a long time ago, you are just behind.
@Zackerybob, You said, "We KNOW that it is not an "unborn human" because what makes us human (the frontal cortex of the brain) does not exist within the first 5-6 months"
Do you have any references for this claim that the frontal cortex does not exist until the 5-6 months? I'm not finding any references for this claim.
Also, what do you call these "things" that are retrieved from a woman that doesn't have a frontal cortex but is breathing and taking up space?
Uh, its called an embryo, not any different than a frog embryo, or a monkey embryo. Did you know that running over a squirrel with your car does more harm than aborting a fetus? At least a squirrel is neurologically active and can feel pain. A fetus cannot. You should be waging a crusade against the massive slaughter of poor squirrels on the sides of roads by our evil cars.
Who said anything about "making" anything from an embryo? I'm saying that in the early stages of development, it is not any different than other animal's embryos in terms of biology. Meaning, the rights of the woman should trump the 'rights' of a fetus (that is not even a person yet).
@Zackerybob, You said, "Who said anything about "making" anything from an embryo?"
I did. You said that there is no difference from a monkey, frog or human embryo. So I am asking if you know if anyone has ever made a monkey or a frog from a human embryo.
Because if there is no difference, science should be able to make a different animal, or human from any embryo.
But if there are differences, then it's possible that it is a human even in the state of an embryo or even earlier.
I said there is no difference from a BIOLOGICAL perspective, not genetic. Genetics decides what kind of animal. For example, apes and humans share over 98% of our genes. The 2% is what differes us from each other, and that 2% doesn't show up until late in development in utero.
I feel like you are trying to say that if something has human genes in it, than it should be considered a person. This is absurd. That means each cell in your body should be considered an individual human.
@Zackerybob, You said, I feel like you are trying to say that if something has human genes in it, than it should be considered a person. This is absurd."
Why is this absurd? I have human genes, you have human genes, aren't we human? Does a monkey have human genes? If not, then it's not a human, right? I'm saying that if the genes exist from the start of a particular species, monkey, frog, human, etc.; at the cell level, then it's possible that is what it is from the start.
This is why I was asking if anyone has ever made a monkey or a frog from a human embryo. If this was possible, then it would show that embryo's are not species specific but interchangeable. I don't believe that to be true. I believe they are specific.
I consider a zygot, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, teenager and adult to all be stages that a human person passes through from start to finish. But it is a human person at all stages.
Did you read my whole comment?? I just gave you an example of why it is absurd. Each CELL in your body has human genes. Should each strand of hair on your head be given personhood status?? Please, TRY to understand what I'm saying instead of just repeating questions that I have already answered. The question here is PERSONHOOD. Just because a cell has human genes in it, it does not give it personhood, because it is not a person.
@Zackerybob, First let me tell you that I appreciate you continuing the conversation with me. I know that at times it can be difficult to discuss these issues over a limited character field. But I really do appreciate you not dismissing me as others have.
And just as I hope you value my thoughts, I value yours. I believe that these issues need to be discussed in a manor that we all come to a understanding. Terminology is one place where these discussions can get muddy.
I'm saying that there is no harm being done aborting an organism that has not experienced life yet, has no sense of existance, no memory, and no consciousness. Plus, it cannot feel pain. If a woman cannot have a child (for whatever reason) she should be able to get rid of it without stigma.
A poor squirral not only is active in the world, but has motivations and SOME level (although very little) of consciousness. You should feel more sorry for those squished up squirrels.
@Zackerybob, You said, "I'm saying that there is no harm being done aborting an organism that has not experienced life yet"
What is life and who is to say that there isn't any stimulus that a embryo is experiencing?
Isn't it possible that it could be something completely different then we feel after birth? I'm not saying there is; I'm asking if it's possible? We have no way of communicating that so who's to say conclusively, right?
Once again, there is no CONSCIOUSENESS. Consciousness is not some magical, mystical phenomenon. It is a direct product of brain activity. In early development (the first 2 trimesters) it is as if the fetus is in a coma. We know this for a fact. It is not possible for it to experience anything, because the parts of the brain that are responsible for processing such experiences do NOT exist. It's very simple.
@Zackerybob, You keep saying it's very simple. I find that funny when dealing with the brain.
The link you sent me says that the fetal brain starts development at around 4 weeks. It's no bigger than a grain of salt, but it does exist. It's very possible that science has not discovered any activity at that level yet. But who knows, the more we learn, through science, that better the chances that we might understand what happens at that early stage of brain development.
*sigh* did I say that the BRAIN doesn't exist? Of course SOME of the brain is gonna exist? Once again, it is the prefrontal cortex (the part that makes us HUMAN) does not exist.
@Zackerybob, Question for you. I have read in several articles now that new born babies are not completely "consciousness" per say. They have motor skills but yet there is not real process behind the stares they give you when you talk to them. Some say that toddlers aren't ever really fully conscious aware until they are into their 6 to 8 months old.
That being said, it would mean that there are levels of consciousness, would you agree?
The type of consciousness here you are speaking of is self awareness. Of course there are different levels of consciousness, but again, what I am saying is that in early utero, THERE IS NO LEVEL OF CONSCIOUSNESS because the PART of the BRAIN that is responsible for ANY type of consciousness DOES NOT EXIST.
Unless you believe in something called the 'soul', what you are saying doesn't make any sense. Your argument is rooted in religion, and thus: invalid.
It is not clear what consciousness is, but it IS clear of its origins. This is basic neuroscience. No scientists questions the origin of consciousness and when it comes to the debate about abortion, the origin of consciousness is all that matters.
You keep trying to insist that there can be some level of consciousness in an undeveloped fetus, which just shows that you are ignoring basic facts.
@Zackerybob, I would like to stop this thread as well and keep to the 'personhood' thread. I think we can have a more focused conversation if we stick to one.
If you would like to continue any of these I will be happy to do so.
And I really to appreciate you taking time to discuss this. I value your thoughts.
If you value my thoughts, than stop ignoring them. I have already made my points clear, and I honestly have nothing else to say without repeating myself.
Personhood, in my opinion, ties into what makes us human. And that is the developed brain. Again, just as I mentioned earlier.
@Zackerybob, With all due respect, you had not mentioned personhood before. That is why I am asking for clarification again. If you introduce a new word, whether it means the same to you or not, does not mean to me the same thing.
It seems to me that your definition of personhood is tied to a physical element of the body(the brain).
So I have to ask questions like, do you consider, individuals that have only half a brain, to have personhood? continued...
Or like the individual I mentioned much earlier that didn't have a brain past her brain stem. Does she have personhood to you?
Is it your view that if an individual doesn't have personhood status, does this mean we have the right to kill that individual?
If this is your view, at what point do we consider that an individual has personhood status as we also know that brain is still developing into our mid twenty's?
Also, is personhood the same thing as a human being to you?
A brainstem, that's it? No. There is literally nothing there, but an empty shell that LOOKS like a person, but is not.
If there is no personhood (no available consciousness ie. developed brain) there you are not killing an "individual". An "individual" is a person. That is why it is okay to pull the plug on a brain-dead human that will never become consciouse again. Should people who pull the plug on their loved ones on life-support be considered murders? Of course not!..
The development that you are talking about that occur up to the mid-twenties is the expanstion of neurons and synapses (connections between the neurons). The overall DEPARTEMENTS already exist a couple months before birth (full term).
Um, by definition, a human being is a member of the homo sapiens race. A person. So yes.
Individuals with half a cerebral hemisphere not only can function just fine, but can live their lives just fine if the half that is available is functioning. In fact, young children with extreme epilepsy, can undergo surgery to REMOVE an entire hemisphere and because their brain is plastic (flexible) the half that is available takes over and does the job of the missing half. Of course they have personhood.
@Zackerybob, Just so you know I found this in the side bar of the article you sent me:
MONTH 2
"BRAIN: The major structures of the brain begin to form, including the cerebral cortex. As the brain grows, the embryo’s head begins to look more human."
Cerebral cortex is available in all mammals, even rats. The SPECIFIC part of the brain that I mentioned earlier was the prefrontal cortex (the part that seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom).
@albertlisty Obviously you don't get the point of the video whether you believe in abortion or not, it's not the cause, it's the ridiculous things people are giving up in the name of until abortion ends, I mean really, I can say I will give up Snickers until racism ends but that would be just as trite and meaningless.
@EvieE1002, No, I get the video. And I even agree that it is ridiculous to give up anything until abortion ends. It does nothing to end abortion and just makes the people giving up things look stupid.
I wasn't sure if your comment was referring to the video or to a comment made above yours.
I actually, would never want my partner to have an abortion. We've got a 2 week old baby right now. BUT. If she was to get raped, and really didn't want to keep him. I'd support her everystep of the way.
@Tilyard123456, What if your partner had a child from an ex boyfriend that was 4 years old and her ex boyfriend ended up coming over and raping her. So now she has a 4 year old that when ever she looks at her she replays the rape over and over in her head. So because of that she no longer wants to keep the 4 year old. Would you support her if she wanted to kill that child?
@SWilliamJackson, You said, "They stood up for the right of all men and women to choose what they believe."
So if I believe it's okay to beat gays down, I have the right, according to the founding fathers to do that? I don't think your thinking through this enough.
@albertlisty You can believe it's okay to beat gays down, but your belief doesn't make it okay to beat gays down. You can believe what you want, you just can't necessarily act on those beliefs.
Hurting another person is a lot different than removing an unwanted pseudo-parasite from your womb.
@Marlowann, You are correct. But that is why we all have the right to legislate into laws what we believe. Regardless if you have a religion, or are an atheist, you have the right to legislate into law your beliefs. You sometimes just need to get those people in office that will make the same choices you will make. And if all works out as you hope, the laws change to how you believe. That is why America is a republic.
@senstrom1, So you don't get an oak tree from an acorn? If you do, wouldn't that just be a different stage of life for that oak tree?
The sperm does not have enough chromosomes to be a human being. And an egg does not have enough chromosomes to be a human being. But once you put them together, you get the same number of chromosomes that a human being has at all ages. That number of chromosomes never changes throughout your life time.
@albertlisty Probably not. Back-alley abortions were one of the main reasons abortion was legalized. So if people are so forgetful, that's what we'll have. In other words, abortions won't stop. Women will always need them. But if the government and/or the medical community disallow them (in the case you gave, based on opinion rather than fact), they'll go back to being extremely risky.
@dinosaurdetective If a lady wants an abortion, she must be desprate as it is a last - thing, very last thing. I don't understand why these people think, by taking away docotors, they still won't want to have an abortion. They will punch themselves, they will drink, whatever they do. They are desprate enough to want to get rid of the baby, it won't matter what you take away. Which is why I agree with you.
@go0dtimes88, you said, "Like the people that hate abortion. If you don't like it don't get an abortion"
This is like telling an abolitionist, "Don't like slavery, don't own one," or telling Dietrich Bonhoffer, "Don't like the holocaust, don't work in a concentration camp."
@MissNayNay, This is like telling an abolitionist, "Don't like slavery, don't own one," or telling Dietrich Bonhoffer, "Don't like the holocaust, don't work in a concentration camp."
@MissNayNay, You said, "If one doesn't believe in abortion, then don't ever get one."
Sounds like you are saying, "If you don't believe in killing someone by dismemberment, suffocation, and burning, you don't participate in the killings. Killing someone is a personal matter."
@Tilyard123456, You said, "...not all abortions are done for a selfish act."
So what part of the abortion does the child have a say in if this isn't a selfish act? Does the child have a say into if they should live or die? Is the opinion of the child listened to when the mother/couple makes that choice?
What part of this act not selfish and is better for the child? Is your take on it that it is better for a child to die then to spend 10 years waiting to be adopted?
@albertlisty A selfish act would mean to me "Oh, I stupidly got pregernant im not ready gonna abort it" thats selfish because its the ladies fault in the first place. If the lady was raped, and I know ladies who seek suicide after this. Then it's a fair reason as to why she would want to seek an abortion. Reminder, it isn't a child it's fetus. A sperm being inside a egg doesn't make it a child straight away. - let me carry on
@albertlisty So if the lady was raped, and or she wouldn't want to deal with this child, probley go through post natal depression and depression in general, why would you say this is bad? Are you a lady or a man. I'll go with man. Your wife of 13 years who you love gets raped. She hates herself, she hates this 'thing' inside her. She doesn't want it. She seeks abortion. Whats your opinion on that.
@Tilyard123456, You said, "Your wife of 13 years who you love gets raped. She hates herself, she hates this 'thing' inside her. She doesn't want it. She seeks abortion. Whats your opinion on that."
Why does she hate the 'thing', as you put it, that is inside her?
Did the 'thing' inside her cause the rape?
Is the 'thing' insider her guilty of the rape, or is the rapist the one that is guilty?
Wouldn't you say that these emotions are being projected on the wrong 'thing'?
@albertlisty To sum it up. I'm all for Abortion as a VERY LAST option. I would never personally opt for one. Nor try to convince others to get one. I believe, as an option. It should be left open for that person to take if she feels that it's best in the long run. I'm finished on this subject, your opinion won't change the rules and I believe if you are against it (which im also confused about?) i think your close minded and don't understand why a lady may go for one. Bye.
@Tilyard123456, You said, "I'm finished on this subject, your opinion won't change the rules and I believe if you are against it (which im also confused about?) i think your close minded and don't understand why a lady may go for one."
What do you mean by close minded?
If you are finished on this subject, doesn't that make you as closed minded as you claim I am?
Shouldn't we all be open to hearing all sides and come to a better understanding?
You don't even care about "sentient autonomy" because your world view and argument depends on a woman being ignorant/uninformed about the purpose and function of her sexual anatomy.
She produces a gamete every month for a reason.
Pregnancy means that her sexual anatomy is functioning properly, not that it is dysfunctional. You don't do surgery on a body that isn't broken. Abortion says that pregnancy is a dysfunction which is a complete an utter lie according to the biological facts.
Is this a medical classification that I can read about in a medical text book?
Didn't you say that I should "inform [my] intellect with something other than the BuyBull."?
So how about it oh wise "med school student"?
Do you know what the purpose and function of human gamete cells are for? Do you know what the anatomical purpose and function of the uterus is. You don't care about autonomy since you ignore the biological facts of human development.
Also, people saying that abortion is taken 'lightly' or used as a convenience by women have obviously never been pregnant. Pregnancy is not an issue ANY women takes lightly. Abortion is illegal in Ireland and women have to resort to back-alley, home-made abortions with coat-hangers (yes really), endangering their own lives and ability to have wanted, healthy children because someone else has told them they don't have the right to their own wombs.
@kitrichardson, Any resources for these back-ally abortions?
Your illustration screams the one thing pro-choice people demand: choice.
A woman has the right to choose to do whatever she wants with her own body; it's her choice. If that's true, then she must take responsibility for those choices, even when they are self-destructive. A woman is no more forced into the back alley when abortion is outlawed than a man is forced to rob banks because the state won't put him on welfare.
Pro-choice stops thousands of unwanted babies being born into damaging environments. What if a woman is raped? If a woman becomes pregnant while addicted to heroin? If a woman is in an relationship where her partner is violent? You people would honestly rather force these women to give birth to these children, rather than have them wait until they are financially and emotionally able to bring up healthy, happy children? If you are anti-abortion, this is what you want.
@kitrichardson, Really? You expect people to wait to have children until they are financially and emotionally able to bring up healthy, happy children?
So basically you are advocating never having children again, right?
Rape? Definitely not the woman's choice. But that doesn't mean you commit another crime because one already happened.
Heroin, violent partner? Those again, are choices. She must take responsibility for those choices, even when they are self-destructive.
@kitrichardson, Do you believe it's okay to kill unwanted babies? Don't you consider that murder? What if the baby is 4 months old and is unwanted; should the mother be allowed to kill that baby because she doesn't want it?
Opinion: Abortion should be taken seriously, but depend on situation, should be allowed.
The Church can teach people to have lifestyles which prevents "their own abortion", but legal actions should NOT be taken.
Focus of this issue should be moved from: whether to abort or not--to-->who should be responsible.
e.g. How about rape and incest? Irresponsible deserting fathers? Most, if not all, are caused by men. Yet I hear condemnations only towards women (who decides to abort).
@AkasakaS2000, You said, "Abortion should be taken seriously, but depend on situation, should be allowed."
Which situations should it be allowed?
How about instead of whether to abort or not to who should be responsible we move the focus to what is it?
If we can define that it is a unborn human child then there is never a justification for killing the unborn. If it's not an unborn human child then no justification is needed, right?
I <3 Abortion.
KittyFX 20 hours ago
Daniel Tosh's take on this was the best.
And for all you Jesus freaks out there, here's a coat hanger for you to hang in there while your quest to regress society dies a slow death.
As my friend says I'm not pro-choice, I'm pro abortion. Especially in the south
ChaosOverkill 1 day ago
Instead of saying "until abortion ends, I will not do this"
People should say "If abortion doesn't end i'm going to shove this up your ass"
Or some shit like that
DOMTARDED 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
until abortion ends i will stop watching until abortions ends videos...wait what?
gonzalez108 2 weeks ago
I love this vid
seaangel011911 2 weeks ago
how about giving up sex?
rhearay2287 2 weeks ago
If I had a kid, I would give it up until abortion ends.
Stillcantstopmenow12 2 weeks ago
If you want to be political about it, you could argue that Conservatives, mainly Conservative Republicans, always say how less or no government is needed. But, it seems to me that intruding into the bedroom would be far more government. Conservative Republicans want to outlaw abortion and gay marriage, as well as many other things, yet say that the country needs far less government intervention. Contradiction?
mike2beastly 3 weeks ago
Nearly everyone on the planet is "pro-life." Where so many "pro-lifers" mess up is that they insinuate that you are either "pro-life" or you are pro-death. "Pro-choice" people are capable of having and raising children, hence the "choice" part.''
mike2beastly 3 weeks ago
This has been the best response to those abortion videos I've ever seen.
Nikki0417 3 weeks ago
Until abortion ends..... I'll keep having abortions :)
meisema666 3 weeks ago
Im not, in any way, against abortion and I'll tell you why. If abortions were illegal, think fo how many more resource consuming people would be on earth. The earth is way overpopulated as it is. Another point i'd like to make is, think of how many of those aborted babies wouldve turned out to be murderers, rapists, pedophiles, or other types of menaces to society. Once aborted, the baby goes straight to heaven to be with God anyways. After taking these into consideration, abortion isnt all bad.
TheWaynelds 3 weeks ago 2
i love you.
uhfofie 3 weeks ago
Another thing. This man only thinks abbortion should be legal because he has already been born
saaaaaarge 3 weeks ago
@saaaaaarge I'm sorry dude, that is a terrible argument.
savagerockman 3 weeks ago
It's sad to know we live in a world with people like this fool.
saaaaaarge 3 weeks ago
@saaaaaarge It's sad to know that we live in a world where people actively try to take away a woman's right to reproduction, to her own body.
Tihmily2007 3 weeks ago 4
Until abortion ends... I'm giving up giving a shit about these people.
Oaglor 3 weeks ago
Until abortion ends... I'm giving up condoms
TGrabs22 3 weeks ago 2
I love to abort them babies lol
killerkush420foeLIFE 3 weeks ago
The idea that we cant stop abortions so why have a law is equally applicable to every crime. Making something illegal is as much about a statement of societies principals as it is prohibiting the action.
Seaworldexists 3 weeks ago
Fuck you all!!! We are all gonna die either way:)
OGDonCorleon44 3 weeks ago
yah that is pretty lame of them...I'm pro solution...I don't like baby's being killed or mom's being forced into something there not ready for (they did have sex knowing the risks though)...maybe that makes me pro adoption.
cher716 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
branwen4 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@cher716 - Not all women (and girls) get pregnant because they "have sex knowing the risks." Many get pregnant because they DON'T know the "risks" or even what birth control IS; or often because they were raped. Not just that, but some people need to abort because later on they find out that having a baby could kill them (and sometimes also the baby). Good to hear you're pro-solution though! I would like to adopt someday.
branwen4 3 weeks ago
CONTINUED: its also easy to pick on a website that clearly makes no sense but i dont find humor on a topic like this educational for anyone, just an easy way to establish where people already stand. I think death is saddest when it means the prevention of future projects or aspirations, which is why when a young person dies its the saddest when an older person dies we r sad but more so for the people left behind, if u view death similarly you see y abortion being legal is so heartbreaking
misremembered72 3 weeks ago
@misremembered72 so how does making it illegal make the world a better place?
CoolBeanSquadron 2 weeks ago
@CoolBeanSquadron i just explained why i find abortion tragic so if you read my comment you should know why i think itd make the world a better place. ALSO over 50% of abortions are by minors, do you really think they would seek out a black market abortion or even have the means to do that...theyre minors that would be out of the question for most of them. maybe thered be more responsibility but maybe not, either way you cant make laws based off how people will react to them
misremembered72 2 weeks ago
@misremembered72 all I see is people forced into poverty for children they didn't want / couldn't afford. Foster care and adoption are already over capacity (the people running them are doing their best). Children who will never know a stable loving home.I find that pro lifers don't see the big picture of the quality of life of these millions of unwanted + the millions more that would be added if abortion was made illegal. I believe every child should be wanted, loved and well provided for
CoolBeanSquadron 2 weeks ago
@misremembered72 do you honestly think it's fair to force a 15 year old girl to have a baby when she is a baby. Unless her parents are well off and can help her raise a child, that girls life is going to be shit,on welfare can't get an education and little hope of ever digging herself out of it. All because she made a bad decision when she was barely out of junior high
CoolBeanSquadron 1 week ago
@CoolBeanSquadron i appreaciate your stance and i do see where you are coming from, i completely agree sex ed is nowhere near where it needs to be. IMO if abortion was made illegal sex ed, parents and schools would be forced to react creating better sex ed, instead of having teachers wing it and parents too embarrassed to say anything. If the girl who is 15 has a kid its not the laws job to cater to people who have made an irresponsible decision. two wrongs never make a right
misremembered72 1 week ago
@misremembered72 Access to birth control is another area that needs to be greatly improved. Netherlands boasts the lowest abortion rate in the world, about 6 abortions per 1000 women per year, Yet it`s available on demand.their rates are so low because 1) they educate 2) contraception is easily available. This is the route I would like to see Canada take in helping reduce the rates
CoolBeanSquadron 1 week ago
@CoolBeanSquadron well i completely agree with your second post that available contraception and education are whats lacking. and i appreciate this little debate because youve made solid points but i think if the US (or canada) was more like the netherlands eventually orphanages wouldnt be stretched so thin as they currently are and that 16 year old could put her baby up for adoption.
misremembered72 2 days ago
@CoolBeanSquadron I know you think living in an orphanage would be horrible for most kids but i just read a book by a trouble chicano youth who grew up in an orphanage cause no one cared about him in his family ended up in jail but eventually started writing poetry and know hes an author. this isnt a typical case but youd abort this child because his parents were young and he had no home. he had a terrible rough youth but hes thriving now. existing is always better than not
misremembered72 2 days ago
@CoolBeanSquadron and we're all just cells and dead skin, just because someone is unwanted doesnt mean you can treat it like something. i dont think we'll ever agree so i dont want to drag this out too long but feel free to comment back but ill probably only respond once more
misremembered72 2 days ago
@misremembered72 I`m sorry but after you see your friend kicked out for being pregnant at 16 you might not think of it that way.A teenager isn`t being irresponsible they lack the emotional responsibility to comprehend full consequences of their actions. If a 10 year old got pregnant would you say the same thing
CoolBeanSquadron 1 week ago
@CoolBeanSquadron and ive explained why i think the act of abortion is so wrong. I could be wrong but you seem to be addressing the aftermath of abortions and not the actual process. the world might be a better place overall if say for example every child born with a deformity was aborted but the act itself is completely wrong and there are many people out there with deformitys and odds stacked against them that excelled in life
misremembered72 1 week ago
@misremembered72 the actually process is a simple surgery to remove an unwanted clump of cells in my opinion, No late term abortions are preformed unless medically necessary at least in my country.And as for the birth defects some are minor or purely aesthetic. But in the case of severe birth defect like Acephlous and Cyclopia (don't google them their pretty horrific) I find it cruel and unusual to force some one to continue the pregnancy to term against their wishes.
CoolBeanSquadron 1 week ago
PRO LIFE COMMENT (oh shit) an argument that people would still seek out abortions is like saying murder could never be legal for the sole purpose that people would still commit it. Without going into the argument when life starts, who are you to say (more like imply) that most people who would get an abortion would seek illegal measures to get one if it was against the law. If it became illegal sex ed would increase as well as the use of safe contraceptives.
misremembered72 3 weeks ago
@misremembered72 making abortion illegal wouldn't make people make better choices. better sex ed would, education and information are crucial.I was lucky enough to get very sound sex ed and then got even better sex ed when i joined the gay straight alliance since they cover a much more varied subject then just standard straight sex.
I am proud to say that all this was vital to me having never been pregnant or contracting an STD
CoolBeanSquadron 1 week ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Abortion is great! I love abortion! I watched "Silent Scream" and thought it was wonderful. I think all babies should be aborted as a mass excercise of women's reproductive rights! And, just to be clear, the term "reproductive rights" never means anything other than "termination of pregnancy".
You know what a good "reproductive right" really is? Keeping your fucking legs closed.
CSK225 1 month ago
@CSK225 What else should "reproductive rights" mean? Or are you one of those people who thinks that men also deserve a say in women's pregnancy, despite the fact that they don't have the ability to get pregnant?
I also enjoy the "keeping your fucking legs closed" comment, because you make it sound as if women are they only participants in unplanned pregnancy.
Abbytater 1 month ago
@Abbytater Women are most certainly NOT the only participants in an unplanned pregnancy! Men are as much responsible and should be held such. However, he should have a say if he's to be held responsible. You can't have it both ways (that's hypocrisy). As far as the keep your legs closed comment goes; it's the easiest way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy (go ahead and deny it). PS... taxes shouldn't be used to pay for abortions. Pay for it yourself.
CSK225 3 weeks ago
@CSK225 I chose to not keep my legs crossed thank you very much.I chose to be responsible and use contraception and if ever that contraception should fail I will always have options including abortion (p.s the cost of an unwanted child in foster care is way higher for the tax payer than an abortion)
CoolBeanSquadron 2 weeks ago
@CSK225 what's cheaper 500 for and abortion or the thousands of dollars for just one child in foster care
CoolBeanSquadron 1 week ago
@CSK225 You know what reproductive rights are? Safe, affordable access to pap smears and breast exams. Safe and affordable contraception so women and men can continue to have sex while minimizing unplanned pregnancies. Safe maternal and infant care to lower the maternal death rate in the US (which is astonishingly high considering how much money we spend on healthcare.) And yes, safe and affordable access to abortion.
Keep your own fucking legs closed.
Xeginy 1 month ago 7
@Xeginy Do you honestly think Planned Parenthood would be around were abortion illegal? No, they wouldn't. That's the only "reproductive right" they have an interest in. All those other non-rights you mentioned are just as available at any hospital or clinic.
CSK225 3 weeks ago
@CSK225 Okay, lets assume abortion were illegal. Assuming that laws surrounding birth control were not affected, PP would still very much be in business. The vast majority of their services have to do with contraceptives and STI testing. So saying that PP is only interested in abortion is untrue. Also, have you tried to get an abortion at PP? Their family planning program will cover pap smears and birth control, but if you want an abortion, you pay upfront, in cash. They're not free.
Xeginy 2 weeks ago
@CSK225 abortion is 3% of what they do, the other 97% is offer medical testing (sti, pap smears, mammograms) and family planning (information and birth control) to lower income people can't afford to go to a hospital or clinic, and until the united states has universal heath care PP will always offer an important service to communities in need
CoolBeanSquadron 2 weeks ago
@CoolBeanSquadron Moron.... 51.5% of Planned Parenthood clinic income comes from abortion. 46.5% came from government sources (this means tax money for you simpletons out there). This should make it relatively clear where the bread and butter is for PP.
CSK225 1 week ago
@CSK225 YES they make soooo much money on 500 dollar abortions ( after the cost of medication, sterilizing medical equipment, the doctor's pay, the aftercare nurse). They're just rolling in money that's why they need privet donations so badly
CoolBeanSquadron 1 week ago
@CSK225 so you've never had sex, and when you do it will be for reproduction only then? cuz that what the keeping you legs crossed argument means to me and if you have sex without trying to conceive your a hypocrite
CoolBeanSquadron 2 weeks ago
@CoolBeanSquadron - I take responsibility for the actions I take. I am not a hypocrite. You are stupid. It doesn't matter what it means to you. What it means is simple, which is why you don't understand. It's simply this: if you do not want a child so bad you are willing to kill it then you should keep your legs closed until such time you wouldn't kill it. People get pregnant using conception fairly often. Use it all you want but if you get knocked up then deal with it.
CSK225 1 week ago
@CSK225 you seem to think it's every women's goal in life to eventually squeeze out a baby. I never want children EVER and and am unable to get my tubes tied do to age restrictions. Quite frankly I enjoy having a a sex life and living in fear of my vagina seem's ridiculous to me.If some one has three children and can't afford another one what are they going to do, never have sex with their spouse again just in case?
CoolBeanSquadron 1 week ago
@CSK225 on a side not you have made several jabs at my intelligence, I have never done the same to you. All I have done is make several solidly based arguments and bought up several hypothetical situations. If your so insecure in your argument that you feel the need to call some one names then make a better one.
CoolBeanSquadron 1 week ago
Who knew abortion rights were the key to America's obesity problem? What a win-win situation we've stumbled across here...
SpikesWish 1 month ago
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toshirodragon 1 month ago
I think I'm in love with you.
autumnlights 1 month ago
check out my channel
lilwizkid3 1 month ago
WOOHOO! You are awesome!
soccergirl367 1 month ago
This is hilarious. They vow to give up crap until a woman's right to seek a legal and safe medical procedure is taken away. Good for them. Not only can woman continue to have their reproductive rights but now more Americans will start to eat healthier. It's a win win for everyone.
NuGhost 1 month ago 27
I love the cat in the video-LOL and everything that J says!
Ajai1913 1 month ago in playlist More videos from illdoc1 2
You rock.
envir0chick 1 month ago
OMG!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!! You have out profounded yourself!! Just when I thought you couldn't say anything more astute than you already had, you drop this!! I have got to get my husband to start watching you!
kristlsmithtyler 1 month ago 12
I'm Pro Life and Pro Choice. You can be both. Who is pro death? NO ONE.
skippy080 1 month ago
@skippy080 Pro Life definition - advocating full legal protection of embryos and fetuses (especially opposing the legalization of induced abortions).
You CAN'T be pro life and pro choice you are a fucking hypocrite , the least your dumbass can do is google up the words before you try to sound cool.
MordieSG 1 month ago in playlist More videos from illdoc1
I SENSE A LOT OF "AGEISM" HERE. IT'S JUST AS BAD AS RACISM. YOU THINK YOU HAVE MORE RIGHTS THAN AN UNBORN BECAUSE OF IT'S STAGE IN DEVELOPMENT. BECAUSE I SEE A LOT OF DIFFERENCES IN AN UNBORN CHILD, A TODDLER, AN ADOLESENT, TEENAGER, AND AN ADULT!
carmel350 1 month ago
@senstrom1, Isn't the female body a collection of cells?
I think the difference is that the female body does not abort a fertilized egg unless there are complications with it.
But because it's a natural thing that would be different then physically removing an attached egg. One is released naturally by the body, the other is forced.
It's very possible that the biologically natural, instantaneous aborted egg wasn't alive so the body release it. Where if it is still attached it's alive.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@senstrom1, Perhaps an acorn is a different stage then that of the oak tree that comes from the seed? Perhaps an egg is a starting stage for a chicken?
What do you consider the potential of life? Are you meaning that a sperm and an egg are the potential for life or is it still just the potential of life after they are joined together? Because once they sperm and the egg are joined they are a new creation. Instead of 23 chromosomes, there is not 46.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, I would agree. It's not about religion. It's about what is it?
If it is a unborn human child, from conception, then no justification is good enough for abortion to be allowed.
If it isn't an unborn human child then no justification is required.
Would you agree?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
...i don't know what you are getting at. Abortion is a right for women BECAUSE a cluster of dividing cells cannot trump the rights of the mother. A woman does not have to justify to anyone on why she's getting an abortion because no harm is being done and thus, it is none of your/our business.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, You claim that it's just a cluster of dividing cells. Because of that you say the woman doesn't have to justify anything, is that correct?
If so, then I would agree with you 100%; the woman doesn't have to justify aborting a cluster of cells.
But what if that cluster of cells really is an unborn human person from the first time that cell splits.
If that is true, should we allow an unborn human child to be aborted?
Shouldn't we really know what it is for sure?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
Judging from your questions, you lack basic understanding of biology and embryology. We KNOW that it is not an "unborn human" because what makes us human (the frontal cortex of the brain) does not exist within the first 5-6 months. Scientists have come to this conclusion a long time ago, you are just behind.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, You said, "We KNOW that it is not an "unborn human" because what makes us human (the frontal cortex of the brain) does not exist within the first 5-6 months"
Do you have any references for this claim that the frontal cortex does not exist until the 5-6 months? I'm not finding any references for this claim.
Also, what do you call these "things" that are retrieved from a woman that doesn't have a frontal cortex but is breathing and taking up space?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
I sent you a link to a brain development site.
Uh, its called an embryo, not any different than a frog embryo, or a monkey embryo. Did you know that running over a squirrel with your car does more harm than aborting a fetus? At least a squirrel is neurologically active and can feel pain. A fetus cannot. You should be waging a crusade against the massive slaughter of poor squirrels on the sides of roads by our evil cars.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, Sorry, I don't see the link, could you post it again?
Can you make a frog or a monkey from a woman's embryo?
This is a serious question; I don't know if this has ever been done.
I can't find anything when I do a search.
albertlisty 1 month ago
Disregard the link request. I did get it. Thanks. I will look it over.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
Who said anything about "making" anything from an embryo? I'm saying that in the early stages of development, it is not any different than other animal's embryos in terms of biology. Meaning, the rights of the woman should trump the 'rights' of a fetus (that is not even a person yet).
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, You said, "Who said anything about "making" anything from an embryo?"
I did. You said that there is no difference from a monkey, frog or human embryo. So I am asking if you know if anyone has ever made a monkey or a frog from a human embryo.
Because if there is no difference, science should be able to make a different animal, or human from any embryo.
But if there are differences, then it's possible that it is a human even in the state of an embryo or even earlier.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
I said there is no difference from a BIOLOGICAL perspective, not genetic. Genetics decides what kind of animal. For example, apes and humans share over 98% of our genes. The 2% is what differes us from each other, and that 2% doesn't show up until late in development in utero.
I feel like you are trying to say that if something has human genes in it, than it should be considered a person. This is absurd. That means each cell in your body should be considered an individual human.
Zackerybob 1 month ago 2
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@Zackerybob, You said, "I said there is no difference from a BIOLOGICAL perspective, not genetic."
You seem to imply a lot when you make a statement. You never specified biological or genetic.
You said, "The 2% is what differes us from each other, and that 2% doesn't show up until late in development in utero."
How late in development do you understand this to be?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, You said, I feel like you are trying to say that if something has human genes in it, than it should be considered a person. This is absurd."
Why is this absurd? I have human genes, you have human genes, aren't we human? Does a monkey have human genes? If not, then it's not a human, right? I'm saying that if the genes exist from the start of a particular species, monkey, frog, human, etc.; at the cell level, then it's possible that is what it is from the start.
albertlisty 1 month ago
This is why I was asking if anyone has ever made a monkey or a frog from a human embryo. If this was possible, then it would show that embryo's are not species specific but interchangeable. I don't believe that to be true. I believe they are specific.
I consider a zygot, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, teenager and adult to all be stages that a human person passes through from start to finish. But it is a human person at all stages.
Just like an acorn can only produce an oak tree.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
Did you read my whole comment?? I just gave you an example of why it is absurd. Each CELL in your body has human genes. Should each strand of hair on your head be given personhood status?? Please, TRY to understand what I'm saying instead of just repeating questions that I have already answered. The question here is PERSONHOOD. Just because a cell has human genes in it, it does not give it personhood, because it is not a person.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, First let me tell you that I appreciate you continuing the conversation with me. I know that at times it can be difficult to discuss these issues over a limited character field. But I really do appreciate you not dismissing me as others have.
And just as I hope you value my thoughts, I value yours. I believe that these issues need to be discussed in a manor that we all come to a understanding. Terminology is one place where these discussions can get muddy.
continued...
albertlisty 1 month ago
You have now introduced a new word into the discussion, 'personhood'.
Could I presume that what you are saying is that an unborn child is a human being, but it's not a person?
Would that be a correct statement?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, You said, "At least a squirrel is neurologically active and can feel pain. A fetus cannot."
So are you saying that because a fetus can't feel pain, it's okay to abort it?
I'm asking because I'm trying to be clear as to what your reasoning is for saying it's okay to abort a fetus.
Also, thanks for the link! Good reading.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
I'm saying that there is no harm being done aborting an organism that has not experienced life yet, has no sense of existance, no memory, and no consciousness. Plus, it cannot feel pain. If a woman cannot have a child (for whatever reason) she should be able to get rid of it without stigma.
A poor squirral not only is active in the world, but has motivations and SOME level (although very little) of consciousness. You should feel more sorry for those squished up squirrels.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, You said, "I'm saying that there is no harm being done aborting an organism that has not experienced life yet"
What is life and who is to say that there isn't any stimulus that a embryo is experiencing?
Isn't it possible that it could be something completely different then we feel after birth? I'm not saying there is; I'm asking if it's possible? We have no way of communicating that so who's to say conclusively, right?
Objectively, it's possible. Scientifically...?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
Once again, there is no CONSCIOUSENESS. Consciousness is not some magical, mystical phenomenon. It is a direct product of brain activity. In early development (the first 2 trimesters) it is as if the fetus is in a coma. We know this for a fact. It is not possible for it to experience anything, because the parts of the brain that are responsible for processing such experiences do NOT exist. It's very simple.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, You keep saying it's very simple. I find that funny when dealing with the brain.
The link you sent me says that the fetal brain starts development at around 4 weeks. It's no bigger than a grain of salt, but it does exist. It's very possible that science has not discovered any activity at that level yet. But who knows, the more we learn, through science, that better the chances that we might understand what happens at that early stage of brain development.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
*sigh* did I say that the BRAIN doesn't exist? Of course SOME of the brain is gonna exist? Once again, it is the prefrontal cortex (the part that makes us HUMAN) does not exist.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, I believe I will suggest we stop this comment thread as I think the one where you mention 'personhood' is going down the same path.
It might help keep the discussion focused if we stop this one.
Would you agree to stop this thread and focus on the 'personhood' thread?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, Question for you. I have read in several articles now that new born babies are not completely "consciousness" per say. They have motor skills but yet there is not real process behind the stares they give you when you talk to them. Some say that toddlers aren't ever really fully conscious aware until they are into their 6 to 8 months old.
That being said, it would mean that there are levels of consciousness, would you agree?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
The type of consciousness here you are speaking of is self awareness. Of course there are different levels of consciousness, but again, what I am saying is that in early utero, THERE IS NO LEVEL OF CONSCIOUSNESS because the PART of the BRAIN that is responsible for ANY type of consciousness DOES NOT EXIST.
Unless you believe in something called the 'soul', what you are saying doesn't make any sense. Your argument is rooted in religion, and thus: invalid.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, Again, I think this is also going down the same path as the 'personhood' thread, albeit a little more technical.
Should we stop this thread as well and focus on the 'personhood' one?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, And perhaps we should be discussing what we mean by the word 'consciousness'?
I have been reading some articles that are indicating that it could also be vibrations and sensitivity to light. (Which would be more to my liking)
This might clear up some confusion in our discussion if we agree on a specific definition for consciousness.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
It is not clear what consciousness is, but it IS clear of its origins. This is basic neuroscience. No scientists questions the origin of consciousness and when it comes to the debate about abortion, the origin of consciousness is all that matters.
You keep trying to insist that there can be some level of consciousness in an undeveloped fetus, which just shows that you are ignoring basic facts.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, I would like to stop this thread as well and keep to the 'personhood' thread. I think we can have a more focused conversation if we stick to one.
If you would like to continue any of these I will be happy to do so.
And I really to appreciate you taking time to discuss this. I value your thoughts.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
If you value my thoughts, than stop ignoring them. I have already made my points clear, and I honestly have nothing else to say without repeating myself.
Personhood, in my opinion, ties into what makes us human. And that is the developed brain. Again, just as I mentioned earlier.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, With all due respect, you had not mentioned personhood before. That is why I am asking for clarification again. If you introduce a new word, whether it means the same to you or not, does not mean to me the same thing.
It seems to me that your definition of personhood is tied to a physical element of the body(the brain).
So I have to ask questions like, do you consider, individuals that have only half a brain, to have personhood? continued...
albertlisty 1 month ago
Or like the individual I mentioned much earlier that didn't have a brain past her brain stem. Does she have personhood to you?
Is it your view that if an individual doesn't have personhood status, does this mean we have the right to kill that individual?
If this is your view, at what point do we consider that an individual has personhood status as we also know that brain is still developing into our mid twenty's?
Also, is personhood the same thing as a human being to you?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
cont.
A brainstem, that's it? No. There is literally nothing there, but an empty shell that LOOKS like a person, but is not.
If there is no personhood (no available consciousness ie. developed brain) there you are not killing an "individual". An "individual" is a person. That is why it is okay to pull the plug on a brain-dead human that will never become consciouse again. Should people who pull the plug on their loved ones on life-support be considered murders? Of course not!..
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@albertlisty
cont2.
The development that you are talking about that occur up to the mid-twenties is the expanstion of neurons and synapses (connections between the neurons). The overall DEPARTEMENTS already exist a couple months before birth (full term).
Um, by definition, a human being is a member of the homo sapiens race. A person. So yes.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@albertlisty
Individuals with half a cerebral hemisphere not only can function just fine, but can live their lives just fine if the half that is available is functioning. In fact, young children with extreme epilepsy, can undergo surgery to REMOVE an entire hemisphere and because their brain is plastic (flexible) the half that is available takes over and does the job of the missing half. Of course they have personhood.
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob just read the conversation your having, you have the patience of a saint
CoolBeanSquadron 1 week ago
@CoolBeanSquadron
LOL, thanks, but not really. It's amazing what some breathing exercises can do...
;)
Zackerybob 1 week ago
@Zackerybob, Just so you know I found this in the side bar of the article you sent me:
MONTH 2
"BRAIN: The major structures of the brain begin to form, including the cerebral cortex. As the brain grows, the embryo’s head begins to look more human."
Still reading!
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty
Cerebral cortex is available in all mammals, even rats. The SPECIFIC part of the brain that I mentioned earlier was the prefrontal cortex (the part that seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom).
Zackerybob 1 month ago
@Zackerybob, You said, "The SPECIFIC part of the brain that I mentioned earlier was the prefrontal cortex..."
Actually, you said Frontal cortex, but I won't hold that against you. :O)
I'm still digesting the article. I just wanted to mention that to you.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@senstrom1, You said, "But a woman's right to choose her own medical treatment especially our reproductive choices, Is NOT one that is debatable."
How do you come to this conclusion?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@amntomek Who's argument? And why do you like it?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@EvieE1002, Who does? And what truth is that they speak?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty Obviously you don't get the point of the video whether you believe in abortion or not, it's not the cause, it's the ridiculous things people are giving up in the name of until abortion ends, I mean really, I can say I will give up Snickers until racism ends but that would be just as trite and meaningless.
EvieE1002 1 month ago
@EvieE1002, No, I get the video. And I even agree that it is ridiculous to give up anything until abortion ends. It does nothing to end abortion and just makes the people giving up things look stupid.
I wasn't sure if your comment was referring to the video or to a comment made above yours.
Does that clear things up?
albertlisty 1 month ago
A++
sdblaine 1 month ago
Carbs, saturated fats, SOUR SKITTLES ... ugh, so much fail.
EmpressJudge13 1 month ago in playlist Favorite videos
I actually, would never want my partner to have an abortion. We've got a 2 week old baby right now. BUT. If she was to get raped, and really didn't want to keep him. I'd support her everystep of the way.
Tilyard123456 1 month ago
@Tilyard123456, What if your partner had a child from an ex boyfriend that was 4 years old and her ex boyfriend ended up coming over and raping her. So now she has a 4 year old that when ever she looks at her she replays the rape over and over in her head. So because of that she no longer wants to keep the 4 year old. Would you support her if she wanted to kill that child?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@Sanquinity, You said, "for the first 4 to 6 months the fetus isn't even alive yet"
What do you mean, not alive yet?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@illdoc1, You are correct. You have every right to voice your belief's. Regardless if we believe the same or not. Keep speaking your mind.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@SWilliamJackson, You said, "They stood up for the right of all men and women to choose what they believe."
So if I believe it's okay to beat gays down, I have the right, according to the founding fathers to do that? I don't think your thinking through this enough.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty You can believe it's okay to beat gays down, but your belief doesn't make it okay to beat gays down. You can believe what you want, you just can't necessarily act on those beliefs.
Hurting another person is a lot different than removing an unwanted pseudo-parasite from your womb.
No one has the right to live inside your body.
SWilliamJackson 1 month ago
@SWilliamJackson, You said, "You can believe what you want, you just can't necessarily act on those beliefs."
That was my point exactly.
You said, "Hurting another person is a lot different than removing an unwanted pseudo-parasite from your womb"
How do you mean different? It's okay to hurt someone in a certain way as opposed to another way?
You said, "No one has the right to live inside your body."
What do you mean by no one? Sounds like you are referring to it as a human.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@Marlowann, You are correct. But that is why we all have the right to legislate into laws what we believe. Regardless if you have a religion, or are an atheist, you have the right to legislate into law your beliefs. You sometimes just need to get those people in office that will make the same choices you will make. And if all works out as you hope, the laws change to how you believe. That is why America is a republic.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@senstrom1, So you don't get an oak tree from an acorn? If you do, wouldn't that just be a different stage of life for that oak tree?
The sperm does not have enough chromosomes to be a human being. And an egg does not have enough chromosomes to be a human being. But once you put them together, you get the same number of chromosomes that a human being has at all ages. That number of chromosomes never changes throughout your life time.
So what is different except location?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@dinosaurdetective, You said, "the procedure's availability should be determined not by the government but by the medical community"
And what if the medical community determines that life starts ones the sperm and the egg are joined together as one? What then? Do abortions stop?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty Probably not. Back-alley abortions were one of the main reasons abortion was legalized. So if people are so forgetful, that's what we'll have. In other words, abortions won't stop. Women will always need them. But if the government and/or the medical community disallow them (in the case you gave, based on opinion rather than fact), they'll go back to being extremely risky.
dinosaurdetective 1 month ago
@dinosaurdetective If a lady wants an abortion, she must be desprate as it is a last - thing, very last thing. I don't understand why these people think, by taking away docotors, they still won't want to have an abortion. They will punch themselves, they will drink, whatever they do. They are desprate enough to want to get rid of the baby, it won't matter what you take away. Which is why I agree with you.
Tilyard123456 1 month ago
@socialization1, You said, "I am against abortions; however, it does depend."
What do you mean, it does depend?
albertlisty 1 month ago
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@go0dtimes88, you said, "Like the people that hate abortion. If you don't like it don't get an abortion"
This is like telling an abolitionist, "Don't like slavery, don't own one," or telling Dietrich Bonhoffer, "Don't like the holocaust, don't work in a concentration camp."
albertlisty 1 month ago
@MissNayNay, This is like telling an abolitionist, "Don't like slavery, don't own one," or telling Dietrich Bonhoffer, "Don't like the holocaust, don't work in a concentration camp."
albertlisty 1 month ago
@MissNayNay, You said, "If one doesn't believe in abortion, then don't ever get one."
Sounds like you are saying, "If you don't believe in killing someone by dismemberment, suffocation, and burning, you don't participate in the killings. Killing someone is a personal matter."
albertlisty 1 month ago
@Tilyard123456, You said, "...not all abortions are done for a selfish act."
So what part of the abortion does the child have a say in if this isn't a selfish act? Does the child have a say into if they should live or die? Is the opinion of the child listened to when the mother/couple makes that choice?
What part of this act not selfish and is better for the child? Is your take on it that it is better for a child to die then to spend 10 years waiting to be adopted?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty A selfish act would mean to me "Oh, I stupidly got pregernant im not ready gonna abort it" thats selfish because its the ladies fault in the first place. If the lady was raped, and I know ladies who seek suicide after this. Then it's a fair reason as to why she would want to seek an abortion. Reminder, it isn't a child it's fetus. A sperm being inside a egg doesn't make it a child straight away. - let me carry on
Tilyard123456 1 month ago
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@Tilyard123456, I agree, Rape is a horrible thing and shouldn't happen to anyone. But reality is that it does happen.
Just curious you said, "Reminder, it isn't a child it's fetus. A sperm being inside a egg doesn't make it a child straight away"
What makes something a child and not a fetus?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty So if the lady was raped, and or she wouldn't want to deal with this child, probley go through post natal depression and depression in general, why would you say this is bad? Are you a lady or a man. I'll go with man. Your wife of 13 years who you love gets raped. She hates herself, she hates this 'thing' inside her. She doesn't want it. She seeks abortion. Whats your opinion on that.
Tilyard123456 1 month ago
@Tilyard123456, You said, "Your wife of 13 years who you love gets raped. She hates herself, she hates this 'thing' inside her. She doesn't want it. She seeks abortion. Whats your opinion on that."
Why does she hate the 'thing', as you put it, that is inside her?
Did the 'thing' inside her cause the rape?
Is the 'thing' insider her guilty of the rape, or is the rapist the one that is guilty?
Wouldn't you say that these emotions are being projected on the wrong 'thing'?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@albertlisty To sum it up. I'm all for Abortion as a VERY LAST option. I would never personally opt for one. Nor try to convince others to get one. I believe, as an option. It should be left open for that person to take if she feels that it's best in the long run. I'm finished on this subject, your opinion won't change the rules and I believe if you are against it (which im also confused about?) i think your close minded and don't understand why a lady may go for one. Bye.
Tilyard123456 1 month ago
@Tilyard123456, You said, "I'm finished on this subject, your opinion won't change the rules and I believe if you are against it (which im also confused about?) i think your close minded and don't understand why a lady may go for one."
What do you mean by close minded?
If you are finished on this subject, doesn't that make you as closed minded as you claim I am?
Shouldn't we all be open to hearing all sides and come to a better understanding?
Continued....
albertlisty 1 month ago
@Tilyard123456, Perhaps if we believe a certain way it shouldn't be considered closed minded, but rather narrow minded.
I could agree that I'm narrow minded because I believe that how I believe is the right way to believe.
But I'm guessing you are thinking the same exact thing for your view, am I right?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@Tilyard123456, So are you against abortion or for it? I'm confused.
albertlisty 1 month ago
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@daveh013, You said, "but for the same reasons you said it should be kept safe & legal I don't want to see it banned." What exactly do you mean?
Then you said, "even there they taught us it's better legal compaired to the alternative."
What do you mean alternative?
Then you said, "..should be kept legal." Why should it be kept legal?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@MaineJuen, You said, "but my personal morals have nothing to do with the reproductive rights of women."
What do you mean by that?
albertlisty 1 month ago
@ryuuseicha
You don't even care about "sentient autonomy" because your world view and argument depends on a woman being ignorant/uninformed about the purpose and function of her sexual anatomy.
She produces a gamete every month for a reason.
Pregnancy means that her sexual anatomy is functioning properly, not that it is dysfunctional. You don't do surgery on a body that isn't broken. Abortion says that pregnancy is a dysfunction which is a complete an utter lie according to the biological facts.
CatholicAmerican 1 month ago
@ryuuseicha
So what constitutes a "pre-human"?
Is this a medical classification that I can read about in a medical text book?
Didn't you say that I should "inform [my] intellect with something other than the BuyBull."?
So how about it oh wise "med school student"?
Do you know what the purpose and function of human gamete cells are for? Do you know what the anatomical purpose and function of the uterus is. You don't care about autonomy since you ignore the biological facts of human development.
CatholicAmerican 1 month ago
PREACH!
UntilYouRunOutofCake 1 month ago
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'Until abortion ends' in America women will not realise how lucky they were when abortion was safe and legal.
You ever came up with this video has obviously never lived in a society where abortion was illegal.
prochoicecliniescort 1 month ago
I've said it before, but it bears repeating: You, sir, are a steely eyed missile man.
fishpaw23 1 month ago
Also, people saying that abortion is taken 'lightly' or used as a convenience by women have obviously never been pregnant. Pregnancy is not an issue ANY women takes lightly. Abortion is illegal in Ireland and women have to resort to back-alley, home-made abortions with coat-hangers (yes really), endangering their own lives and ability to have wanted, healthy children because someone else has told them they don't have the right to their own wombs.
kitrichardson 2 months ago 8
@kitrichardson, Any resources for these back-ally abortions?
Your illustration screams the one thing pro-choice people demand: choice.
A woman has the right to choose to do whatever she wants with her own body; it's her choice. If that's true, then she must take responsibility for those choices, even when they are self-destructive. A woman is no more forced into the back alley when abortion is outlawed than a man is forced to rob banks because the state won't put him on welfare.
albertlisty 1 month ago
Pro-choice stops thousands of unwanted babies being born into damaging environments. What if a woman is raped? If a woman becomes pregnant while addicted to heroin? If a woman is in an relationship where her partner is violent? You people would honestly rather force these women to give birth to these children, rather than have them wait until they are financially and emotionally able to bring up healthy, happy children? If you are anti-abortion, this is what you want.
kitrichardson 2 months ago 2
@kitrichardson, Really? You expect people to wait to have children until they are financially and emotionally able to bring up healthy, happy children?
So basically you are advocating never having children again, right?
Rape? Definitely not the woman's choice. But that doesn't mean you commit another crime because one already happened.
Heroin, violent partner? Those again, are choices. She must take responsibility for those choices, even when they are self-destructive.
albertlisty 1 month ago
@kitrichardson, Do you believe it's okay to kill unwanted babies? Don't you consider that murder? What if the baby is 4 months old and is unwanted; should the mother be allowed to kill that baby because she doesn't want it?
albertlisty 1 month ago
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ABORTION IS DONE BY 2015. Have fun while you can lol!
MeascEntertainment 2 months ago in playlist More videos from illdoc1
Opinion: Abortion should be taken seriously, but depend on situation, should be allowed.
The Church can teach people to have lifestyles which prevents "their own abortion", but legal actions should NOT be taken.
Focus of this issue should be moved from: whether to abort or not--to-->who should be responsible.
e.g. How about rape and incest? Irresponsible deserting fathers? Most, if not all, are caused by men. Yet I hear condemnations only towards women (who decides to abort).
AkasakaS2000 2 months ago 5
@AkasakaS2000, You said, "Abortion should be taken seriously, but depend on situation, should be allowed."
Which situations should it be allowed?
How about instead of whether to abort or not to who should be responsible we move the focus to what is it?
If we can define that it is a unborn human child then there is never a justification for killing the unborn. If it's not an unborn human child then no justification is needed, right?
What what is it?
albertlisty 1 month ago
You are remarkably wise . . . most of the time.
How about some kindness to the unborn? Your head is simply in the sand on this vital issue.
These are real children being murdered for the mere convenience of the parents.
I greatly appreciate your general stellar insight. Thanks
harvard1636 2 months ago
@harvard1636 LOL! Bet your pro the death penalty too. Love you hypocrite types. By the way, trololololo
ColinNekritz 1 month ago
@ColinNekritz, What would be the problem with being for the death penalty and not for abortion?
From what I understand, most people on death row were found guilty of a crime that warranted the death penalty, right?
What kind of crime did the unborn human child commit to warrant being killed?
If I understand the laws in our country, we don't kill innocent people. I could be wrong, but I believe this is true in all states.
albertlisty 1 month ago
What's the name of the piano song in the beginning?
TheOfficialTone 2 months