GKM psaltis Kalophonikon Aineite Mode 01 byzantine music gregorian chant psaltiki

[logotherapeytis]

δεν είναι τόσο καλή η ποιότητα του ήχου :(

παρ' όλα αυτά διακρίνω μεγάλες φωνητικές δυνατότητες (όσο μπορώ τουλάχιστον)

Μπράβο , θα ήθελα όμως καλύτερη την ηχογράφηση !

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

@logotherapeytis Ena anagnoseis to keimenon eis ta dexia, parechei kapoia LINKS. Dystichos, i echographisis egine me echolipti pollis chamilis poiotitos (dia synedriaseis kai ouchi dia psaltikin).

Antithetos, hyparchei link eis to TELOS tis anakoinoseos to opoion odigei eis video me polli katharin echographisin (teleionei me ta561ct05jd7r­fc)

[105VaLentino]

δεν ξερω ποιο κομματι ειναι αλλα ειναι ωραιο κ τα κρατηματα!!μπραβο

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

@105VaLentino to kommati = IMPROVISATION = Autoschidiasmos == eiche ENAN skopon == na eisagei kapoious dytikous thiasotes eis to ISOKRATEMA == den ito pantote statheroi, kai outos, ego o idios kamno kapoia lathakia diastematon.

To melos auto, pantos, tous "arese" kai endiapherthikan dia na mathoun perissotera...

[ByzOldSchool]

can you send me an example of proto-varis and a varis interpretation?

[rsgrcg]

RY:

What is Byzantine music? I understand the subject of the 'Byzantine' Empire.

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

Most of us of Hellenic (Greek origin) refute the name "Byzantine" as concerns one of the longers empires in history, and "medieval" music which is associated to it by the name of "byzantine music". As far as 'm concerned, musical lines dating from antiquity were selected and used for prayer purposes in the newly Christianised Hellenic world, and I simply call this repertoire "Psaltiki".

[voxhunden]

Come to think of it, naming everything from between the Balkan and the Black Sea "Byzantine" is one thing (in post-medieval Europe, the word "Turk" applied to about everyone not a Christian, which would have included Buddha himself;). But with my limited knowledge of church history, and assuming "Gregorian" in essence stands for submission to Rome and its rigid structures, calling the music both Byzantine and Gregorian seems a historic impossibility.

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

I do not have the time nor the history backround to start off a "geographic-chronology" argumentation of various classifications. Many musical lines, intervals, and other parameters actually DO overlap among different cultures. Yet, there are fine adjustments that distinguish psaliki from other music, even Greek music itself. I find psaltiki almost IDENTICAL to what is CALLED by other GREGORIAN chant... I prfer canto plano.. and do NOT link it to any church in PARTICULAR...

[voxhunden]

Thank God.. You're right, let's keep the music away from religion and politics. This music actually reminds me most of so-called Gothic chant, which is (moderately) polyphonic, but otherwise has a very similar emotional charge and singing style. Thanks for uploading it.

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

Well.. I can't really keep my chanting "away" from religion, since it is a form of prayer. The above piece (contrary to OTHER hymns I have uploaded) is an IMPROVISATION... I simply combined "Gregorian" and "psaltiki" chant lines together . It is for this reason that some comments from Greek listeners are quite negative, in that they consider it to be "too occidental" with occidental intervals! (see comments below where I ask others to judge intervals, since Greeks are really "messed up"!)

[voxhunden]

I meant "religious politics" of course (and you can add "religious fanaticism" on my behalf:). I can't judge the intervals unfortunately, I do have an ear for just intonation, but I'd have to listen to more Byzantine music in order to make any judgment. You and your critics are in a VERY specialist field..

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

Well, you can STILL help (because I consider that those criticisizing chant NEITHER traditional psaltic NOR Occidental "just intonation". It's very simple. Is there a PART in this melody where you hear INTERVALS that sound occidental (200 cent tones, 100 cent semitones and, why not 50 cent quarter tones)? If so, please indicate WHERE. If not, just write it out... I'd appreciate your help.

[voxhunden]

If you really want my uneducated opinion: 3:335-3:40 sounds flatter that I would expect from Eastern music. Otherwise it's in small parts like turns and cadence notes, e.g. 4:25.

I think. I'd have to listen to more psaltiki on order to reach any conclusion. But my ears are particularly sensitive to ET, in fact they hate it (and with it most romantic and pop music), that's why I love medieval music, and how I got to this page in the first place;).

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

3:40 YES, you are CORRECT... it was a bit high, and I did not prepare it correctly... that interval should have been a lot higher.

Let's treat the ison = Re... in this passage, La has become Re (system of fifths) and the Mi is a La == the PSALTIC fifth is GREATER than just (eg at least 710 vs 702 cents). I messed it up.

The tones should alwo be large (210 vs 204 c). Compensations = smaller fourths = Re Sol = small.

[voxhunden]

I strongly support your research towards the relationship between Orthodox music and Gregorian chant. We Western Europeans (and let's be honest, Europeans in general) have a tendency to think we invented the sun, the moon and the stars, and to turn a blind eye to all influences that came from the East.

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

1) Dear friend, thank you for your comment. Sacred chant has elements that are, in my opinion, UNIVERSAL, of which a number were "lost" as various muscial notation systems were slowly impoverished from the Au/Oral tradition various chants were supposed to be learnt by. Thus, paleographic scores of the West (which are a COMPLEMENT of our Oriental system= not one is FULLY perfect) were slowly read as "midi" files instead of "folk songs" one learns by heart.

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

2) Please see the "Montreal Psaltiki" site (follow link from my profile) and go to the "GKM Paedagogical" section, where there are many files. I'll slowly add an upcoming publication which gives an explanation as to how both Gregorian and Psaltiki are SIMILAR and contain COMMON elements. Please see diagram on "Rhythmic bridge" between the two. Send me personal e-mail, and I'll send you the links. Best wishes for the new year.

[AKISLIL]

Το άκουσμα είναι καθαρά δυτικόν και δεν έχει ίχνος βυζαντινής θρησκευτικότητος και λατρείας !Θα πρέπει κάποια στιγμή να μάθουν αυτοί οι άνθρωποι τα σωστά διαστήματα! Πραγματικά συμφωνώ με τον mzs1453 ότι η ερμηνεία είναι άτεχνος γεμάτη με αστάθειες!

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

Dose syngekrimmena chronologika stoichei px : eis ton lepton 1:23 .

Den diaphono peri KAPOIAS astatheias, alla pro mou to bgaletai DYTIKA diastemata, tha ithela na exakribosomen POU.. LOIPON: SE POIA SIMEIA AKRIBOS?

Ean oi Simonokaraïtes echete kalyteron "akousma" kai "deigma".. to perimeno...

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

mzs claims I am chanting "western like" intervals, that they are quite unsteady and that I should correct myself before criticising other "professionals".

I am accompanied by French musicologists who are maintaining a drone, and my objective was to demosntrate: large tones (greater than 200 cents) and augmented fifths (larger than just). The first note is to be considered as a RE

There are definitely errors

If you are an occidental music vocal specialist, I'd appreciate your comment.

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

I'll eventually run a spectral analysis and put forth a detailed report as to each note's pitch in cents.

We will then discuss if GREEK "musicologists" have as good an ear as they pretend.

Meanwhile, I have asked that mzs refrain from any further comment unless he or his "teacher" post an audio sample of some similar chant using what HE CONSIDERS as being GOOD, STEADY intervals.

God has given me an average voice which is bound to make mistakes.

I try, however, to use it knowleageably.

[mzs1453]

ΚΑΛΟΝ ΘΑ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΟΙ ΕΞ ΕΣΠΕΡΙΑΣ ΙΕΡΟΨΑΛΤΑΙ ΝΑ ΠΡΟΣΕΧΟΥΝ ΚΑΙ ΝΑ ΤΕΛΕΙΟΠΟΙΗΣΟΥΝ ΠΡΩΤΑ ΤΑ ΤΟΥ ΟΙΚΟΥ ΤΩΝ,ΠΡΟΤΟΥ ΚΡΙΝΟΥΣΙΝ ΤΟΥΣ ΠΑΝΤΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΑ ΠΑΝΤΑ,ΩΣ ΕΝΑΡΓΕΣΤΑΤΑ ΔΙΑΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ ΕΚ ΤΗΣ ΔΙΑΔΙΚΤΥΑΚΗΣ ΔΡΑΣΤΗΡΙΟΤΗΤΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΕΡΜΗΝΕΥΤΟΥ

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

Eis to diadyktion DIAMARTYROMAI dia to AIDIAN eis tin opoian echei katantisei i sychronos Helliniki mousiki kai, kat'epektasin, tropos skepeos.

Echei chathei pia i LEBENTIA kai to philotimo, kai protimoun merikoi na KATASTREPSOUN ton politismon mas pros charin prosopikis tous doxis kai epidioxeon.

Ean eisai LEBENTIS kai den s'echei eunouchisei i theoria tou Kara, PSALLE kati kai malista EPONYMOS.

Loipon, ean DEN fortoseis echetiko diko sou, MIN bazeis allo menyma edo, tha to sbiso.

[mzs1453]

ΞΗΡΟΦΟΝΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΤΕΧΝΟΣ ΕΡΜΗΝΕΙΑ,ΜΕΤΑ ΠΛΗΘΟΥΣ ΤΟΝΙΚΩΝ ΑΣΤΑΘΕΙΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΒΑΣΙΣΜΕΝΗ ΕΙΣ ΔΥΤΙΚΟΤΡΟΠΑ ΔΙΑΣΤΗΜΑΤΑ!

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

Anthropino einai.

DEN einai omos systematika faltsa.

Tora, ean echeis kati pio "stathero" me "orthotera" psaltika diastemata, diastemata", i phortose ta, i psalle ta.

Balle kai to onoma sou.

Kai na hypageis eis ton didaskalon sou o opoios de didaskei peri "ex espereias" kai na tou peis na mas hermineusei kati paromoio.. kai na tou kamneis ison.

Ki hysteron ta syggrinoume.

Eipa oti gnorizo pente pragmata peri psaltikis... ochi oti eimai kaliphonos i "superstar".

[GeorgiosMICHALAKIS]

Esto kai "ex esperias", gnorizo toulachiston kapoia "basika" pragmata, opos oti i lexeis "phoni" graphetai me "OMEGA"... (kai poios den kamnei orthographika lathoi... alla me tin lexin tis dithen "idiotitos" tou kath"ekastou? Auto einai oligon ti "chondron".

DEN pernao apo DYTIKIN skepsin kai Latinikin orthographian PRO tou na grapso i eketeleso ta peri paradoseos mas.

Oute tragoudakia tou Kara lego, oute xekarphota asmata sychronon "mousikologon" te kai bekridizonton "archonton".