My Exodus From Faith, Pt. 3 (The Mountaintop Experience)

[TaylorX04]

@BigMarkusFella Oh good, now you're going in denial and showing us your ignorance more. I have no "problem" with god, just as I have no problem with Santa Claus. I simply don't believe. More often, I have a problem with believers who make completely unsubstantiated claims to know about god's will, existence, and so forth. That usually leads to violence, bigotry, bad policy, etc.

[TaylorX04]

@BigMarkusFella It has nothing to do with you being a Christian. Your own statements have shown your ignorance.

[TaylorX04]

@BigMarkusFella What are you saying "c'mon" for? You think the origin of our universe is obvious, or that it should be common sense? You do realize we're talking about something very complex, don't you? Simple intuition will do you no good. Science has shown that reality is often the opposite of what we might intuitively think. But I probably lost you on the second sentence, didn't I?

[TaylorX04]

@BigMarkusFella People are very good at making up stupid and dangerous things to believe in. Take Christianity, for example.

[TaylorX04]

@BigMarkusFella You don't think humans are capable of causing great harm and suffering?

[TaylorX04]

@BigMarkusFella Watch the next episode. It was for a lot of reasons other than the church. Scripture also doesn't line up with morality, logic, or anything but superstition.

[Quietville]

HUGE video series!

Extremely well done!

[TaylorX04]

@Quietville Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. :-)

[mkbcoolman]

7:03 Dream Theater!!

[AaronHubler]

I love this video! I'm almost 18 and I was a christian until september of 2009.

I am extremely interesting in psychology / neuroscience and how the mind works.

I believed that what I felt when worshiping was God's presence / the holy spirit.

Psychology and Neuroscience really debunk that. Also the fact that other religions experience similar feelings of presences debunks it being supernatural as well.

[Koda924]

... unless you just got random pictures from the Internet, all of which look strangely like Camp Mark 7 ... My mind is in like a state of half-blown, half-not blown

[TaylorX04]

@Koda924 They are random pictures from the internet, lol.

[Koda924]

The pictures of your youth camp look strangely like Camp Mark 7 (where I go or went for a camp for CODAs, that is, Children of Deaf Adults). Are you allowed to tell me where this camp was? o.O

[KabbalahSherry]

Wow Taylor, I have been enjoying these videos very much bro. Excellent job, and thank you for sharing your story. I bet it will help a lot of lost peole.

Thanks,

Sherry

[SpookyFan]

Interesting recount.

[MyPisceanNature]

When this series is done, I shall have to link to it on my facebook page. My cousin still thinks it is impossible for someone to become an atheist by reading the bible.

[ctso74]

That mix of music and exertion has been used by many religions. I've never heard a good answer, as to why it is real in one religion, but a trick in all others.

Great vid! Insightful to many, I'm sure.

[thebigJ1er]

How do Christians of that bent not see that it has all the trappings of a cult? I grew up in a more traditional, CatholicChristian environment, and they at least have the sheer age, history and ancient rituals to lend it a powerful, mysterious, almost magical aura. (That's not to say it isn't just as much of a cult.)

I wonder why more religious ppl don't start to see through it like I did, and like you seem to have.

[a300pilotster]

This is great stuff. Amazing story. thanks for posting. Looking forward to camp quest this year.

[a300pilotster]

This is great stuff. Amazing story. thanks for posting.

[AmGoDDoGmA]

Yep, yep... been there, done that! Thanks for sharing your struggles with us! I completely empathize with your experiences! I agree, the music got to me as well & the group-think also took it's toll!

[FaganRoberts]

Insightful video series.

Although my personal road to reality and disbelief of a god concept was very much unlike what is being described here, it is nevertheless interesting to hear other people's stories. I never was a practicing Christian.

[petehjr1]

@6:00 not only "game time" but you've spent hours in close contact with women, not really sexaully but the close contact and your age at the time certainly would induce a state of euphoria.

[TobiasELee]

Always love your vids. Great, thoughtful work. We have very similar backgrounds. Interesting to hear the same thoughts pass through your head that passed through mine. Look forward to the upcoming installments.

[HitMeQuick]

YAWN. In Northern Europe we see through the charade of religion and God aged about 8, not long after we've done with Santa Claus. Why - all over the internet- is there this self indulgent and pining crap from Americans who have taken until well into adult life to realise they've been duped. Get over yourselves. You were just a bit slow on the uptake. Now go and enjoy life.

[CoonAndFriends2]

@HitMeQuick I've seen my share of fanatic Danish Christian teenagers. I wonder how that happens, if they are surrounded by secularists and atheists.

[TaylorX04]

@HitMeQuick I see you live in the UK. You think your country has done away with the charade of religion when you still have a state church, Christianity is still the largest religious group, and Muslims have been allowed their own sharia courts. Sure, talking about my exit from religion is "self indulgent and pining crap" because you have an ignorant view of the rest of the world and even of your own country. Talk about being slow on the uptake, an American know more than you about the UK!

[HitMeQuick]

@TaylorX04 Hang on a second. We may make a nod to tradition but that's all it is. We are a secular country which tolerates all religions, that's not the same as practicing them. Despite what you might hear on FOX, Muslims make up a tiny percentage of the population and sharia courts are not like County Courts, they are used by a small percentage of the very small Muslim population. I've never seen one and I've lived in Bradford, Leeds and London.

[TaylorX04]

@HitMeQuick I think you're confusing practicing religion with holding metaphysical beliefs. I'm sure a lot of your country doesn't practice, but I don't believe a lot of Americans practice either. However, that doesn't mean these non-practicing people are not believers. I mean, shit, didn't you have Tony Blair as prime minister until a few years ago? I think you're grossly underestimating the presence of religion in your country. The UK is not godless.

[HitMeQuick]

@TaylorX04 Tony Blair never mentioned religion. His PR strategist famously said "We don't do God" because if people had known Blair was a Christian fundy like Bush he would have been treated very differently. We assumed he was like us: polite about religion but not religious. It was only after he resigned that he converted to Catholicism. In the US Presidents mention God all the time, like your sportsman. It's never used here by politicians or sportsman here. You'd be considered a nut job.

[TaylorX04]

@HitMeQuick Regardless, the point of these videos is to move others in the direction you assume Britain has taken. Most of my videos are critiques of literalism and inerrancy, targeted more at Americans than Europeans, as I know these doctrines are mostly an American thing. Yet there are certainly religious believers in your country and others who might benefit from this information. I tell my story also at the request of my subscribers, so frankly, if it bores you, you may piss off. :-)

[HitMeQuick]

@TaylorX04 I shall don't worry. However I maintain there is a major whiff of self indulgence in your videos. You may have loosed the shackles of Christianity but the arrogance that you can still save people. That you've kept :)

[TaylorX04]

@HitMeQuick Strong opinions are often conflated with self indulgence and arrogance by people who have an overly idealistic vision for humankind, i.e. 'can't we all just get along?' Were I truly interested in saving people, I wouldn't be putting videos on YouTube that are gaining a minor amount of views, instead I would be knocking doors, standing on street corners, and being more confrontational. You act as though religion is harmless and it's absurdity is self-evident, but you are dead wrong.

[StormWolf01]

@HitMeQuick I'm from europe too, and we don't have that christian thing very much. I'm the same as you. I was more or less raised "christian", but by the age 8-10, it really stopped making any sense to me, and my parents didn't care. I never believe in adam & eve or things like that. But you have to understand that america is a different culture. They seem to be more religious. So don't be too hard on them, even though it seems really lame.

[MtlRedAtheist]

Wow, you're experiences were so similar to mine. My wife and I had become youth leaders shortly before the last strand of our faith finally broke. Thanks for sharing.

[shanellypooh]

*Radio voice* Will TaylorX04 keep his faith in God? Find out on the next episode of My Exodus from Faith. Thats all I could think of after 9:50. It sounded like a fun cliffhanger for the next video. Btw, good vid.

[macnutz]

One thing that is obvious in this is that you were making observations and asking yourself questions that were not made or asked by the majority of your contemporaries.

"Therein lies the rub..."

[JohananRaatz]

1.) The wave-function of the universe (Stephen Hawking's "Phi") is self-collapsing. (true by definition)

2.) Self-collapsing wave-functions are minds. (Roger Penrose's quantum mind model, Orch-OR)

Therefore: watch?v=ee2jtmhyO8Q

[TaylorX04]

@JohananRaatz Premise 2 is not remotely supported by Penrose, who is himself an atheist. Orch-OR is simply a theory on consciousness, and it does not establish that self-collapsing wave-functions are minds anymore than a theory on reproduction proves that animals reproduce. As I'm sure you know, not all animals do reproduce, many are asexual. Orch-OR has also received much criticism for Penrose's interpretation of Godel. Therefore: fail.

[JohananRaatz]

@TaylorX04 What's wrong with Penrose's interpretation of Godel? I've seen his interpretation and the counter-arguments to it. But the counterarguments all assume that we don't have real mathematical knowledge just an approximation of it (Dennett -the same guy who thinks we are all p-zombies). But that's absurd as we obviously do.

The arguments against his use of Godel, stem from anti-Platonism. It's just a "politics of academia" thing more than anything.

[TaylorX04]

@JohananRaatz First of all, I am not a physicist, but as I understand it, Penrose takes Godel's theorem as a demonstration that the mind cannot be explained by computable processes alone, and on that basis, he postulates a non-computable element, which he then proposes is a self-collapsing wave function. Godel's theorem states that a formal system cannot be both consistent and complete, but why does this have to mean that there must be some additional non-computable element?

[TaylorX04]

(cont'd) It reminds me of the paradox, "this statement is false", which is something no human or computer could resolve. Perhaps these are due not to a non-computable element, but to a language problem. An incomplete system with an unprovable statement also does not equate to a false system, so I fail to see how Penrose's postulation of self-collapsing wave functions as a non-computable element actually contributes anything. It's as fruitless as proposing god for whatever you don't understand.

[JohananRaatz]

@TaylorX04 Because if you don't add that non-computable element it means that according to Godel's theorem you can never have knowledge -which is a contradiction in terms. The examples Penrose gives are that some of the things Godel said are undecidable are known as true by mathematicians every day (the most notable of which are the existence of the set of counting numbers).

[TaylorX04]

@JohananRaatz How does it make knowledge impossible without a non-computable element? I'm not sure it makes any knowledge impossible, nevertheless, as it seems more at odds with the concept of pure knowledge.

[JohananRaatz]

@TaylorX04 Ok,here's how. In order to have knowledge you need justification, but any level of justification can not justify itself with formal logic. (a system can't prove itself from itself).So you need to go to the next level down to prove it. But then that system also needs further proof and so on ad infinitum.But if you can't justify something as knowledge if you need an infinite chain of logical proofs.Thus at some point you need something "intrinsically known" aside from proof -aka a form.

[TaylorX04]

@JohananRaatz And what of logical axioms? In a sense, I believe Platonic Forms have some commonalities to axioms, but I think axioms are self-evident, whereas the Forms seem to be assumed more for convenience. Mind you, I don't believe we have the complete set of axioms, and that may well be beyond the scope of human knowledge, but so long as they are consistent, I don't find it any less reasonable to rely on an incomplete set, since as I said before, incomplete =/= false.

[JohananRaatz]

@TaylorX04 Yes, exactly Platonic forms are axioms. That's how we can have axiomatic knowledge. A computer however can't -or at least can't determine that said axiomatic knowledge is in fact true by itself. Say you ask an AI if it's base coding is right or not. It can't tell because it's thinking is determined by said base coding.

"but so long as they are consistent, I don't find it any less reasonable to rely on an incomplete set,"

But how do we know that the ones that we have are true?

[TaylorX04]

@JohananRaatz Well, I still reject the notion of transcendent ideals existing in some other realm, as the Forms have traditionally been understood. The self-evident nature of an axiom is that even an attempt to disprove it will result in an assumption of its truth. Is this what you are arguing a computer cannot do?

[JohananRaatz]

@TaylorX04 Well they are still there. That's what it means for something to be a priori. We are self-aware of them being there. For example: 1+1=2 would exist "out there" even if we weren't alive.

[TaylorX04]

@JohananRaatz I don't doubt that axioms will remain valid even without observers, but I guess I'm trying to say that I reject the extent to which Plato took the Forms (see the Third Man argument). Anyway, I'd also like to bring up Peano axioms, which are considered outside the application of Godel's theorems because they are not recursively enumerable. Do you believe that human logic is recursively enumerable, and if so, on what basis have you concluded this?

[TaylorX04]

(cont'd) My reason for asking is that if you believe there is some non-computable element to the mind, then would that not mean that the operation of minds falls outside the applicability of Godel's theorems, which only deal with recursively enumerable (computable) systems?

[JohananRaatz]

@TaylorX04 Ok, well the way around the third man argument is a little peculiar. It has to do with Neoplatonism. If we think about where we get many of these forms from in the first place it is the empirical world. (redness, softness, etc.) which is weird because they are supposed to be abstract.Until we realize that what we call "empirical" has both an "externally" known yet "internally" known component. With monism the only way to make sense of this is to say its all information/Platonic stuff.

[JohananRaatz]

@TaylorX04 (cont.) So in essence there is no matter, it's all a manifestation of Platonic stuff instead. (which is weird until you remember that you observe qualia not matter itself) With that the thing becomes the form. The phenomenal qualia of "Red" for example is simultaneously "hard" and "empirical" yet abstract and mental in a sense. So you needn't have an infinite regress of forms of forms of forms. Because at some level the form literally "is the thing." (I know it's a bit surreal)

[JohananRaatz]

@TaylorX04 (cont.) In other words they are throwing out Orch-OR because it assumes Platonism, and they don't like Platonism. But Platonism is automatically true, as to deny it we must EITHER violate the law of non-contradiction OR violate Godel's theorem. Thus the entire basis of their critiques is illogical.

[TaylorX04]

@JohananRaatz "Platonism is automatically true, as to deny it we must EITHER violate the law of non-contradiction OR violate Godel's theorem."

I'd be interested in hearing your justification for this. Plato himself offered a very strong criticism of the Forms in the character of Parmenides.

[JohananRaatz]

@TaylorX04 Here, on Plato: watch?v=Swl0Pl4rURo

[Doubter5]

@JohananRaatz 1) Supportable 2) not supportable

[JohananRaatz]

@Doubter5 No, two is definitely supportable as well. Something like Orch-OR has to be true once we realize according to the Wigner's friend thought experiment, that measurement during collapse can have phenomenal properties as well.

If sensation is primary and the world is made of one substance and matter is not sensation, then logically it means that the primary substance is phenomenal. And since sensation is a form of observation it triggers collapse. (and I have another private reason also)

[Doubter5]

@JohananRaatz This is all scientific double-talk. First you have to establish that a "mind" independent of a brain can exist. THEN prove that that mind is GOD, then I presume, you'll be trying to prove that that god is the particular God of the old testiment.

See my video "Examine Your Beliefs (or Where the Burden of Proof actually lies) "

[JohananRaatz]

@Doubter5 "First you have to establish that a "mind" independent of a brain can exist. "

No, because I never implied that. I'm a monist.

"THEN prove that that mind is GOD, "

Well if we have Orch-OR that part is easy.

"then I presume, you'll be trying to prove that that god is the particular God of the old testiment."

As for this part I'm not attaching any religious deity to it. For all anyone is concerned it could be a "generic deity" of the deist, pantheist or panentheist variety.

[TaylorX04]

@JohananRaatz "Well if we have Orch-OR that part is easy."

I've read your posts on philosophy forums and you seemed to accept the criticism that there is no reason for assuming a universal mind (or the universe being a mind, however you want it) would be a god. I'd like to hear how it's easy with Orch-OR then, especially given that you're talking about a theory of consciousness still, one which itself has nothing to say about ANY god.

[JohananRaatz]

@TaylorX04 Ok, IF Orch-OR is true, (and I have very solid personal reason to believe it is -PM me about it,it's of a shall we say "sensational"variety that I'd prefer to keep private) then we see something interesting happen. There is by definition nothing physical outside of the universe to measure and collapse the wave-function of the universe. Thus it couldn't collapse by external observation. But it collapsed somehow,and the only other way for it to collapse is internally (Orch-OR).

[iiiiblaze]

Public high school

[rationalmuscle]

Odd, my construction-paper heart had as it's only desire, "Write my desires on a construction-paper heart and nail it to a mini-cross." It was... like... God was RIGHT THERE... : )

Seriously though, great video series. My de-conversion story is similar if you toss in "youth pastor nearly molested by horny teenage christian groupies". Odd how Jesus makes young chicks a tad "anxious." Heh....

[TaylorX04]

@rationalmuscle Haha, well my time in youth leadership is coming in part 4, and let's just say that I noticed the anxiety of young Christian girls too.

[SpiroTheodorusAgnew]

holy shit, yes dream theater go you

[rationalmuscle]

Taylor, I would have de-converted the moment that jackass started in with the Waaaaylun tune. Man, that's worse than Iraqi love songs. And trust me, they SUUUUUUCK.

[TaylorX04]

@rationalmuscle I wanted to politely tell him to shove it up his ass, but I didn't want to be ostracized for the rest of camp. The worst part was that he would change the lyrics sometimes, to fit the person he was talking to from his youth group, if they were an athlete, musician, etc. I was tempted to sing "Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be youth pastors".

[Bakersfieldsucks777]

@TaylorX04 -just wondering, which camp did you go to? it sounds very similar to Hume Lake Christian Camps, a place my school forces me to go to every year basically,haha

[TaylorX04]

@Bakersfieldsucks777 I can't honestly remember the name of it, but if it's not in Texas, it's not the same camp.

[Bakersfieldsucks777]

@TaylorX04 -oh, the camp i'm talking about is in california, so it's gotta be different. the format sounds almost exactly the same though. great video series, can't wait for part 4

[passwordresetisbroke]

2:40 Well one mountain climbed, only breast mountain remains!

[WouldbeSage]

1:35

***WARNING***

-HORRIBLE- siloutte coming in

3... 2... 1...

Just what had you been doing since 17, exactly?

Sorry, someone had to go there.

Of all the angles...

[TaylorX04]

@WouldbeSage If you're implying that I was practicing on another instrument, then I have to say that yes I was. I picked up guitar quite easily, because I was no stranger to using my hands. :-p

[DeadbeatShadows]

I eagerly await part 4. Your story fascinates me, especially since my experience was quite different from yours. I almost feel bad that I did not have to undergo a radical questioning of my own identity over my spiritual beliefs.

Maybe I'll make a response with my own exodus. It's not nearly as inspiring as your journey, sir, but there are a few anecdotes here and there.

[miestersean]

I deconverted after a stressful, conflicting experience being a leader at a three-day retreat last summer. The amount of emotion during the worship contrasting with the complete lack of "spirituality" during the leader meetings combined with isolation I felt from everyone else there (I didn't know most of them) made me realize Christianity bothered me and made my life worse. I'm curious to see if the interactions you had with other Christians were a tip-off for you, too.

[VC106893]

My story is so much like yours. Its kinda freaky.

Cant wait for part 4, keep them coming!

[jtgenis]

The church I use to attended is called Christ United Methodist, or as abbreviated on my basketball trophy, C.U.M. Church.

[Jesse2K12]

The church I use to attend was called yes adventist church by popular vote. unfortanitly Satan Haters church only scored second place in the vote.

[LoopQuantumGravity1]

Thank you for a great vid. My experience is similar to yours. In college, many years ago, I got involved in a charismatic cult, Maranatha. I eventually left, but felt empty for years. Finally, things slowly changed, and today I'm a much happier person as an atheist.

[jus10ls]

I remember those Jesus camps that I would get sent to every year.

Other than all the religious stuff, they were fun.

[ExploringReal]

I can relate to alot of it. Looking forward to the next one.

[kjmoon21]

The pictures look eerily like the church camp I went to as a child and young teen.

[TaylorX04]

@kjmoon21 Probably because they're all pretty much the same. Like I say in the video, I went to 4 different camps and the only difference was the theme of the message.

[dmosier]

you sound a lot like me

i can't wait for part 4

keep em comming

[sweatytoothmadman]

You so got to play those Jesus songs you wrote.

[TaylorX04]

@sweatytoothmadman I didn't record any of them, but they may exist on CDs of my dad's old sermons. Though I don't remember if they recorded the music too, or just the message.

[3lectricMonk]

Fantastic story