Janis Karpinski to Dick Cheney: Where Were You Five Years Ago?

[BUSH621]

They blamed karpinski to cover them selfs rums field gave orders to c.I.a and general miller to torture Iraqi .And the killed nick berg inside the prison pretending to be terrorists then hung his body on the Iraqi bypass brige were he had a red jump suit on

[CupisHomines]

military bitches get me so hard these days

[suzieq0452]

Fuck the Soldiers for "Just following Orders" is NO EXCUSE. They're all GUILTY. The Fucking Zionists are still hunting Down German Soldiers for'Just Following Orders". The USA is Good at making EXCUSES for thier "Brave" Soldiers. Your Country is FUCKED UP because of your GREEDY Selfish "Americans" thinking the USA is  "the BEST" Country in the WORLD. You're the MOST HATED country in the World and my Country Canada with PM HARPO the Clone running a Close 2nd. North Americans are STUPID.

[josephcderer]

@suzieq0452 ditto...

[cammmodotorg]

Help educate young people considering service in the military about the misleading marketing, advertising and recruiting strategies of the U.S. military by joining and supporting the website that is the same as our user name.

[ogseybaby1]

dont join the military. You are a idiot if you trust the government anyways.

[endisnighe]

One more thing.

I hope military personnel will not attack us when

we finally decide to throw all the puppets in a pit.

Wake Up America

[endisnighe]

A member of the military, you are sworn to uphold the constitution, in just like any other branch of government. If you do not object to or refuse to follow an unlawful order you are guilty as charged. What do you think the German officers said, while being charged with war crimes after WW2, same fracking thing, and were found guilty. Now saying this,

I believe all our Representatives, Senators,

Supreme Court Justices and Presidents that have not objected to any of these wars

-continued-

[endisnighe]

-continued-

or did notcharge the Presidents or Congress (SCJ failure) with crimes are guilty of treason and warcrimes. The charge of treason for directly not following the constitution and deceit with their own actions. And war-crimes for instituting illegal combat (cannot be called a war if no war declared) They should all

be hung-after a fair and unbiased jury-possibly a 12 member jury filled with US military citizens charged with failure to follow a direct order.

[undeadpresident]

How much "change" has Obama accomplished? His decision not to hold any members of the Bush administration accountable for their actions, including torture, highlights the fundamental unity of policy with the Bush administration. Obama is only a change cosmetically. Now their torture and human experiments will only be done with less light shed upon them once again.

[WarrenAch]

Yea really,fuck politicans,democracy doesnt exist anymore.only the few richest people in the world (D,Rockefeller,rothschild and the other bastards)are taking the final decisions.Obama,bush,clinton,a­ll those sheeps have been chosen by the elite to represent their country,but they don't have any power.also,about abu ghraib,only a few officers and lots of soldiers had problems,because of what?because they just followed the orders from the government,which had orders from the elite.pretty dumb huh?

[undeadpresident]

Ignorant innocent 4th grader says "Condi Rice told me it's not torture, it's "enhanced interrogation," and it's not breaking the law, because the president ordered it, and the president makes the law. That's how democracy works, right?"

[sushifool]

fuck the bible, find something better to argue about.

[octopibingo]

Heaven forbid we should be harsh with terrorists, the killers of the innocent.

Since none of the interrogation techniques did any physical harm, it would be beyond logic to classify them as torture. Inconvenient might be a better word, which is better than the terrorist's version: headless.

[KorakD]

And you are certain all of the inmates were terrorists?? How about soldiers of Saddam's army, why are they terrorists? We fought a war for oil, they defended their homeland, and they're automatically all terrorists? *shakes head*

[CarryANation]

octopibingo free Granier and put Donald Rumsfeld in his cell.

[kamitwi]

terrorist, soldier, freedom fighter, rebel, insurgent. they're all words for people who do the same thing. Some of them have powerful people backing them, some don't. none of them are inherently evil--of course the do evil things, but they believe that they are doing them for a good cause. Should beliefs matter when it comes to right and wrong? nope. if terrorists threatened, tortured, starved and humiliated you would it be okay? nope. if a government authorized soldiers to do the same? nope.

[jlxn]

All of the soldiers, including Ms. Karpinski, should be pardoned, released from prison, have their rank restored and be given honorable discharges.

This is yet another disgraceful Bush Administration action. Scapegoating simple soldiers for their own evil deeds.

[kamitwi]

I think that's going a bit far.  I'd settle for time served, dishonorable discharge and turning over the people who authorized this shit to a war crimes tribunal.

[KorakD]

How about pardoning the terrorists then, except for Bin Laden and co who organized the whole thing?

And the "terrorists" who've tortured americans, well they were just following orders. So let them free eh?

Or are you a hypocrite perhaps? :)

[CarryANation]

Hey KorakD-FAG:

The American military has been forceful in their denunciation of torture, from the beginning, and said it was not effective, and against American tradition, law, and morality.

Torture Fags like yourself, on the other hand, and having a grand old time watching "24" on TeeVee and coming up with fantasies about how you "save American lives" by torturing various swarthy, Arab men who are "terrorists" according to you.

You're a fag torture lover. Enjoy Hell, Sodomite.

[leesagrrl]

CarryANation/and all your other names:

Can't you explain one of your vapid infantile nonlinear points without calling people you don't agree with, "fags?"

It's likely that this is your Active Compensatory Complex... It would seem someone so obsessed with Homosexuals might be, um... compensating.

[leesagrrl]

CarryANation :

I don't have any other names... and it should be obvious in that there's no one else on this post even remotely as funny as me.

I love it when someone tries to use the bible to explain their bigotry. And it's especially interesting that you are obviously using the Jewish Bible, as opposed to anything that Jesus said.

I don't think Jesus ever said the word "Sodomite," and I don't think the word "Faggot" is even in the bible.

[leesagrrl]

CarryANation :

You seem a real contradiction. You are obviously a homophobe and are most likely compensating... and... you are against Torture (a good thing)... and somehow you think that these people that you are complaining about are "sodomites" and "faggots."

And just for the record... I'm bi and I don't like being classified the same as Torturers.

[CarryANation]

"You are obviously a homophobe and are most likely compensating... and... you are against Torture (a good thing)"

What is the contradiction?

"somehow you think that these people that you are complaining about are "sodomites" and "faggots.""

When I saw the Abu Ghraib pictures, it looked exactly like the San Francisco Folsom Street Fair. Where is the contradiction? The behavior is the same?

[leesagrrl]

From CarryANation:

Leesa: "I'm bi and I don't like being classified the same as Torturers"

CarryANation: leesgrrl, I didn't call you any names did I?

Leesa: "You are obviously a homophobe and are most likely compensating"

CarryANation: Perhaps you are projecting? If you consider yourself the same as a torturer, or engage in similar activities, then what's your problem exactly?

**

My problem is that you are nonlinear. I am Bi... I am NOT a Torturer and I do not condone any kind of Torture.

[leesagrrl]

CarryANation:

Why do you keep removing your posts? It makes it very difficult to reply to your inanities... but I assume that's your intent.

So you think the soldiers that did all the awful torture at Abu Ghraib were all homosexuals?

It's interesting that you claim you know the bible... I find that most people that consider themselves moral experts never have.

I'm still waiting for a quote from Jesus about "Sodomites" and "Faggots." Bundles of sticks don't count.

[CarryANation]

"So you think the soldiers that did all the awful torture at Abu Ghraib were all homosexuals? It's interesting that you claim you know the bible... I find that most people that consider themselves moral experts never have."

I didn't claim to be a "moral expert" but yes I do know the Bible. I agree, most people do not.

The contractors, CIA agents, and the few actual US soldiers who engaged in homosexual torture, did, in fact, do that. They did, in fact, do what they do at the Folsom Street Fair

[leesagrrl]

CarryANation:

So, ALL of the Torturers engaged in Homosexual Torture? Where did you read that?

Just for clarification: I think Torture is despicable lowlife behavior dictated by psychopathic Sadists like Cheney and Junior for their own thrills.

And I think it's really sad and sick that you think that sadism is synonymous with being gay.

[leesagrrl]

CarryANation:

You keep claiming to "know" the bible. I think you are vastly mistaken.

Show me just one passage where Jesus himself used the word "Faggot" or "Sodomite." You can't use any Paul, because he never met Jesus.

[KorakD]

Hey moron, I was denouncing torture you complete inbred imbecile. This was a reply to another post where someone wanted to pardon the soldiers who did the torturing, and just blame the leadership in the White House. I don't agree with that, both those who did the torturing AND those who ordered it need to be held accountable.

[CarryANation]

Really? Maybe I misunderstood, sorry I take it back, you're not a fag enabler, that was the other guy.

[leesagrrl]

Posted and removed by CarryANation:

"leesagrrl and your other names:

"My comments are not directed towards you, they are directed towards the proponents of torture here. That's why I responded to them, not you."

"They fit the Biblical definition of the words "sodomite" and "faggot" and that's why I call them that."

"Oh I get it - I must be secretly gay. If it's ok to be gay, that's not an insult right? Are you a homophobe?"

[leesagrrl]

CarryANation:

Leesa: Why do you keep removing your posts? Shy? Afraid someone beside me will realize what you are?

Leesa: "I don't think Jesus ever said the word "Sodomite," and I don't think the word "Faggot" is even in the bible."

CarryANation: You're wrong on both counts, and it's obvious you've never read the Bible. So why bother bringing it up?

Leesa: Actually, unlike most Christians I studied the Bible. Show me where Jesus spoke of Sodomites and Faggots.

[jlxn]

There have been pardon programs in Iraq already. That is beside the point.

We cannot equate Al Queada and the U.S. Army. We expect the Army, and the U.S., to take the high road and our soldiers expect to be led with honor. The chain of command failed these soldiers, then unjustly held them responsible.

The people responsible for this are the policy makers who said this behavior was legal. Junior enlisted personnel do not have the experience to judge policy coming from the White House.

[KorakD]

Both are responsible. You can't hide behind "I was just a soldier doing my job". I'm sorry but that's a copout.

Yea the guy at the top ordering this sort of behavior should be the first one to go to prison, and shame that this wasn't done. But people have to take responsibility for their actions, at most you'd be kicked out of the army but you'd rather torture people instead? Sorry that excuse doesn't work with me.

[Yankhadenough]

General Karpinski was in war, those under her were following orders from the Neocons, her civilian superiors. I do not blame her one bit, she was on the front lines risking her life, she was used, and she is a hero for sticking up for those who were scapegoated and imprisoned. She would have been courtmartialed or worse, imprisoned or executed as a traitor if she went against the highest levels when she was at Abu Ghraib. She will be really pissed if she found out about Cheney and PNAC !!!

[mfonti01]

Straight line to the interrogators??? To bad it was the MPs not the MI soldiers who committed the illegal acts. Different chain of command. Retired BG Karpinski has spent the last few years trying to cover herself and make herself out as a victim. These soldiers being "scapegoated" had nothing to do with the approved interrogatioin tactics, they were acting independently, and BG Karpinski had no control over them.

[Yankhadenough]

mfonti01 Karpinski just stated to KO that she  met and listened to some of the "seven bad apples" that said the MI were giving them the orders.

[RationalEmotive]

so why did Cheney say "bad apples" when the doctrine came down from him? Does he say, that he himself is bad, "I am a badass torturer motherfucker, motherfucker" or did he just lie, because he saw that torture was wrong and wanted to hide it, but to make a buck for Halliburton and Blackwater at the same time?

[mizilus]

filthy republican cowards.

bad enough they always hide behind the flag and the constitution, the bible and of course the troops but as we see (and many including myself said so at the time) they have no problem scapegoating them, too.

[gwbushisOnePoS]

Regarding question at 2:15

Have you forgotten the challenge Americans faced when family members, friends, neighbors, co-workers and the media quoted the words of that PoS g. w. bush . . .

'either you're with us or you're with the terrorist'

Thank you, you PoS g. w. bush for dividing my country ASS-HOLE!

[octopibingo]

Terrorists and liberals divided the country.

[CarryANation]

octopibingo, while you may get a thrill out of perverted sexual torture, you're in the minority, most Americans think you're gross. If you enjoy that sort of thing, move to San Francisco.

[JavierCA2008]

Problem with all this is no one really cares about this... Olbermann and the lefties are pushing this as hard as they can... In one ear out the other...

[skelotan]

You're here...

[octopibingo]

So what's the problem?

[kamitwi]

I think everyone can agree that monstrous things happened at Abu Ghraib. However, I felt then and feel now that it's unfair to prosecute those individual soldiers. They were trained to follow command without question. It's the way the military works. Had they disobeyed, they would have gone to prison. Seems like a real catch-22 to me. Do we wish they had been strong enough, moral enough to say 'no' and take the punishment? Of course! Do you blame the monster or Dr. Frankenstein, who made him?

[varange2]

In the same way that German camp guards followed orders?

[kamitwi]

Yeah, that's the difficulty of it, isn't it? I do understand that. I think that soldiers (in a lot of ways) replace their ethics with the chain of command. After all, I think that most of us would agree that killing is wrong--but that's why the military exists. So they rely on their commanders to choose what is right and what is wrong. I just think it's really hard to look at these things in context. Most of the monstrous things done throughout history can be linked to the political climate.

[KorakD]

Well there has to be blame put on those that committ the acts. Otherwise you can just say afterwards "oh well I was just following orders I'm innocent" ...

Yea well then release all the terrorist ok? They were just following orders from Bin Laden ... see where this is going?

[kamitwi]

I do agree with you Korak. It's simply difficult to know where the blame line should be drawn. Military and militia encourage objectification of the 'enemy'. I guess it's an issue of who's MORE to blame. I would rather see Cheney and Bush and his cronies punished for creating this whole atmosphere where atrocities like Abu Ghraib were seen as OK. They deliberately disregarded the 'rules' of modern warfare and encouraged the soldiers to do so as well. Are the soldier innocent? Absolutely not.

[rhabdoviridae]

So typical of chickenhawk cowards like Rumsfeld, Bush, or Cheney; they simply cannot take responsibility. Such a shame that there is not a Hell for these bastards to burn in. We must push for justice now!

[pcc68]

She really lowered the boom in Cheney and Rummy. That was terrific.

[klugyboy]

Obama should pardon those soldiers.

[jrebstock]

i agree...obama should pardon Lynndie England, the fact that she is serving time in prison...is a crime against humanity....it is unbelievable that she has taken the fall for rumsfeld's incompetence.

[eyesonly654]

Its against international law to not prosecute officers following orders which violate international law. So as the law states, the officers, personnel, and comanding persons who violate international law must be tried accordingly.

[jrebstock]

is it against international law to pardon (L. england) those who were prosectuted?

[eyesonly654]

If someone were to get pardoned it should be the officers forced to partake in illegal acts. The admin who authorized these torture techniques and made it mandatory should be investigated first, then the officers. But as decided in trials followimng WWII it became illegal to pardon officers who were "simply following orders." Much like any other crime thats committed in the world. if someone loaded the gun and put it in your hands, but you accidnetaly pull the trigger, you're still guilty.

[jlxn]

The people who are serving time are not officers, they are junior enlisted personal who have no say in policy.

[eyesonly654]

No, you're right, all parties who took part in any illegal acts are complicit on some level. The indictmenst should go from the presidential cabinet from the previous admin to the officers who took part in the acts. That is how the legislation was written.

[jlxn]

The soldiers who are serving time for this are not officers. They are all junior enlisted personel, who have no control over policy. You may remember the Nuremburg trials focused on the high ranking officers and policy makers in government.

[johnedwards1968]

Don't be too easy on her! I'm not defending Rumsfeld, but it's not like Lyndie England or the others are innocent either.

There's room to prosecute them all, IMO!

[jrebstock]

lyndie england was an 18 yr old kid from wva.....dating her officer/boss....and following orders to torture....i think she's served enough time...and can be given a break....and pardoned.

[skelotan]

I thought she was out?

[KorakD]

Well, the people who committ the act (i.e. torture) are no less guilty than the ones who allowed it or ordered it.

Also anyone in charge while this happens is also partly responsible.

That's just how it works.

[jlxn]

They are not guilty. The policy makers who authorized the mistreatment and the officers who implemented the mistreatment are guilty. Junior enlisted personal have no control over policy.

[eyesonly654]

A lot of people who were innocent nice people commit crimes through pressure and accident all the time. No one is advocating to release the other people, so its only fair she serves the sentence which was given to her.

[tigerone1970]

Why not punish both? Many of the Bush people still have something to answer for from when they served Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan.

There were so many crimes committed by the Bush Administration, that no one can spin this into a political prosecution (like the persecutions of Don Siegelman and Bill Clinton, among I'm sure many others who are less well known).

So let's get those prosecutions going.

[jlxn]

Why not punish both? The soldiers who have paid the price for this are junior enlisted personel. They have no control over policy. It is the people who developed and officers who implemented the policy that are guilty.

[ndvuncle]

I'd volunteer to put the hood over Rummy's head, the rope around his neck, and to slap the horse on the ass.

That fucker makes me sick.

[leesagrrl]

I dig it that she is so completely pissed off.

[Red7Eric]

This is an amazing story ... but, um - what's with how KO pronounces Abu Ghraib? Is he trying to clear his throat or something?

[ahmadeyad]

Actually this is the closest that a western news anchor got to pronounce Abu Ghraib correctly . the GH in Arabic sounds like chewbacca ranting (gggrrhhaaa).

[kamitwi]

it's pretty close, if you sort of gargle it's kind of close to the right sound for the ghr letter. There's just no real english equivalent.

[baddmanaz]

lets invite cheney to this discussion.

[TribeTPaul]

I agree with you

[leesagrrl]

baddmanaz:

Naaaa... let's just try the bastard and then string his evil ass up on Cable TV.

[cvjucla3]

Don't forget Dumbsfeld.

[leesagrrl]

cvjucla3

You get to deal with him.

I just can't deal with all his, "Sometimes you know what you know, and sometimes what you know is not what you know, so you need to know what you know before you find out what you really know."

He's a Kwazy fuggin' Wabbit.

[pilotamurorei]

We can do a George Carlin style televised execution: During halftime of the Super bowl :D

[leesagrrl]

Only if Cheney does that thing that Prince did at the end of his halftime show (Kidding!!! No human would want to see the silhouette of little Cheney! Which explains his need to torture... it's compensation for having a less-than-microscopic bone daddy).

Actually, I'm not a big fan of fatal Corporal Punishment... but these folks are so evil.

Our society has turned into the "reality" from the Max Headroom show, where a Court of Law is conducted as a Game Show that decides your ultimate fate.

[rochesterpopulist]

Kudos to Former Brigadier General Karpinski for taking on the neo-Pinochetists

[technicschic]

I like that description - "neo-Pinochetists" - do I have your permission to use it from time to time? :)