a prayer sponsored by the school is unconstitutional, that much has been made clear. the school also cannot approve students speeches beforehand with religious endorsements, at least not at events which the school would be seen as fully approving and endorsing the student. that has also been proven unconstitutional. the hate for the ACLU in unfounded; hate on the constitution or the judges which upheld it if you feel you must vent your anger. i feel for the non-christians in this class.
Those who know Mat Staver personally know he is a selfish, callous individual. Btw, I'm a conservative and will have nothing to do with Mat Staver or what he stands for. He uses and manipulates people to push HIS agenda, not the conservative agenda.
Those who know Mat Staver personally know he is a selfish, callous individual. Btw, I'm a conservative and will have nothing to do with Mat Staver or what he stands for. He uses and manipulates people to push HIS agenda, not the conservative agenda.
See a special tribute, at onug.us, to the young men and women, students of Pace High School. Their moral courage, physical presence, spiritual resolve, and out pouring of love, stood in stark contrast to the ungodly men and women who came to pervert our Constitution and God's Laws, at a federal courthouse. It was remarkable to witness. They are the next great generation of Americans who will shortly come of age, and help restore this country to her firm foundation of obedience to Christ Jesus!
@OneNationUnderGodUSA they came to pervert our constitution?? nut job christians are doing this one.. they are cherry picking just like they do with the bible.
And the funny part is that, so long as the prayer was initiated BY the students- with no instigation, support, or encouragement from the government funded school personnel- the ACLU would not object.
@scorand: Reich Xians are not the sharpest knives in the drawer when it comes to making distinctions in constitutional or other legal matters, as you have indicated. But the fact is, so long as the mercenary religionists among them can pimp it to the sheeple in the pews as part of their "Christians in America under siege" propaganda, they'll continue to cash in on episodes like this.
@ emzirek Your no to smart are you. We have to ban ALL religious practices in school to keep out discrimination between the students. How would you like if A Muslim protested your graduation or ur childrens graduation. These students are nothing but a fucking joke and scum. They have no respect to their fellow graduate students. But I thank them because this is just goign to help keep religious creeps from discriminating other students. I think they should have not received a Diploma
@Dustylane2009 it's ppl like u who have no respect for christians, just cuz they don't think like u and are actually happy, ur trying to make them miserable as u are
@lover3963 i have seen more of this from christians, but thats how it is when dealing with mass superiority complexes like this. christians just love to play the victim.. yet blatantly ignore how the have no respect for anyone who dont think like they do.
@scorand now lets not jump to conclusions christians as you described are not true christians just because pretenders do so you dont have to blame it on the whole christian community
@131995pinkgirl well a majority of christians are as i described, so its not just jumping to conclusions. and when you question any of them they'll tell you that just because they call themselves such they cant be wrong becasue christians are always right nomatter the rfeality
@lover3963 wow. your complaining and making an acusation on dusty that christians so commonly do themselves.. typical.. just because they dont agree with you and are happy it pisses you guys off
In this case and all others the freedom of religion students should skip any participation and financial support of the schools program, rent another building, have their own ceremony, and let the little tyrant stand alone at his ceremony.
Do NOT associate with those given to Change! The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. Even a child is known by his deeds, Whether what he does is pure and right. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding, In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty! Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people -Proverbs FEAR NOT
Christianity is a Doomsday Cult. But maybe religion should be taught in school-teaching the Truth about it. The Crusades, The Inquisition, Jim Jones, David Koresh-the bible itself indicating a predisposition toward violence. People whom opposed these cults of Christianity, like the inhabitants of the new world were raped & murdered by these people. Religionism is a root of war (Christian or Muslim) these people are terrorists, threatening humanity and futures child. They should be arrested.
Yeah? Go ahead - Be that man/woman of action. Let's see how far you really get with that. I doubt you will get far, and probably be laughed at. Go For It!!
You are not allowed to interrupt other people's graduation to make a big scene over your own personal religious insecurities.
If Muslim students had stood up to shout out a long series of prayers to Allah, I suspect those Christian students would be the first to go crying and screaming all snot-nosed to the authorities.
This is why we keep public institutions neutral. To keep out the loud and tiresome displays of the self-righteous.
Im not trying to force any beliefs on you . If you choose not to pray thats your right . But dont try to take my right away . Be you and let me be me .
Even in public I'm in my own place , and being myself . If I choose to pray any where any time ...its my right to do so . And not one of you will ever take that right from me .
A graduation is a ceremony honoring all the students, not just the Christian ones. You have the right to pray in silence or display your cross if you like, but interrupting the ceremony is not you right and is down right rude.
Go right ahead - without disturbing others who genuinely believe that you are an idiot. Keep such activity private, as instructed to do so by your dead leader.
Remember - nothing fails like prayer ... or have you moved any mountains lately?
Time to grow up and find your place within reality and not in a fantasy world.
If your taking my time and interrupting my or my children's ceremony with your religious garbage, then you are forcing your beliefs on me. If you want to pray, you can do it in silence or on your own time.
You may take your atheist garbage elswhere . I will do as I have the right to do . If you dont want to pray with me then I suggest you just get over it . IT WILL NEVER CHANGE .
You are rather narrow minded arent you ? Only have one point of view ...you say we are pushing our beliefs on you , Then you show hypocracy by trying to push your belief onto us . And if you knew anything about the subject , you would realize self righteous nonsense isnt the real christian way .
If my children want to pray in class , or at graduation then by all means they will. The ACLU has absolutly no authority to stop them . Its absurd , and I will defend my rights vehemently .
So you would have no problem with Muslim students interrupting the graduation and praying to Allah? Would you stand up for Muslim students, Hindu students, etc? I very much doubt it. Hypocrite.
If they get in trouble for it I personally could care less what the punishment is. I mean I'd take a civil stand like they did. But in the same respect they ran me out of the school in 2006. So anything that comes back on them to me is karma. I did nothing wrong the same way they did nothing wrong. So once again i got punished for doing nothing wrong the same wya they are being done now. Again fuck pace high school if they get in trouble over this.
I'm Agnostic but I can recognize that this protest was great. A big FUCK YOU to the ACLU!! I don't believe in prayer in school but there's nothing wrong with occasional civil disobediance. It's nice to see a politically incorrect group doing it for a change. If a minority religious group did this not only would it not be giving political correctness the finger, but it would be politically incorrect to complain about it. Glad to see these youngsters have not been brainwashed by the liberals!
...by all means do so. The accosted must know that they're in society & shit happens. If a student wants to tell the other that they're ugly & use brute force then you have a boundary issue that needs to be addressed. I've no problem with students having freedom of speech. Let 'em bring it on. They had better be prepared for a verbal encounter with the likes of me, as I can cuss the paint off the wall. Also, we all learn that some peeps in the world you don't mess with. They are fools with guns.
No one can stop a student from cussing or telling another kid they're ugly, but students are still punished for such behavior. Do they really have the freedom of speech then, if certain kinds of speech will get them in trouble? Teachers and schools set up boundaries on students' rights in order to ensure that their primary objective of EDUCATION operates smoothly and with as little disruption as possible. This really shouldn't be so hard for you people to grasp.
There is no historical foundation for the proposition that the Framers intended to build a "wall of separation" that was constitutionalized in Everson vs. Board of Education Justice William Rhenquist
Justice William O. Douglas, wrote that forbidding public worship discriminates in favor of "those who believe in no religion over those who do believe."
George Washington, What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.
You keep spreading this propaganda, because lying for Jesus is allowed, right?
The separation of church and state is in the writings of the greatest influences on the American founders: John Locke and Charles Montesquieu. It's in the Establishment Clause, it's in the words of the founders themselves, like James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams, and it is in the historical events of the first Pilgrim landing in America and the tyrannical oppression of the Church of England.
The mere fact that the Constitution never invokes God is evidence enough, considering that the Magna Carta, the Articles of Confederation, and many contemporary constitutions did. The founders wanted to keep freedom of religion in America, and they realized that to do so means freedom FROM religion too.
@countryboy1949 yes they did and its historicly in the constitution. and as stated several times by the founding fathers to protect the people from church dictatorship
William O. Douglas was not a founder, and your George Washington quote only seems to appear on Christian websites. Any idea what source it comes from? Didn't think so.
Didn't say William Douglas was a founder, he was a justice on SCOTUS, he should understand law and he wasn't a friend to Christians.
Of course I have the source to the GW quote, you didn't think I would did you. George Washington made that statement while trying to convince the Delaware Indians to be educated in our schools May 12, 1779 and teaching Christianity was a plus to George Washington and other founding fathers...that is historical fact like it or not.
Actually, the quote is incorrect. The closest thing in that speech is Washington telling the Indians, "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ". Never says anything about Christianity in American schools, Washington only wanted the Indians to follow his religion. I do think Washington was probably a Christian, but his religious views were often kept to himself and he sometimes said discernibly anti-religious things.
AtheistWatch...you must be kidding..Christianity was in American schools since before the Constitution was ratified. Only in the 20th century when the SCOTUS thought they knew more of what the founding fathers meant than the founders themselves was it stopped.
"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
I didn't say it was. Washington was very private in his views, but also very tolerant. He declined to describe his own religion to people numerous times. Seems like he felt faith was a personal matter, not one for government, which is what I've been saying all along.
I understand....But Washington as all the other founders didn't see anything wrong with acknowledging God in public even if it was in government buildings and went as far as having Church every Sunday in several gov't bldgs for almost 100 years after the Constitution was signed. The founders did not practice "separation of church & state" as we've been made to do since the 1960s.
The problem is that what the seniors did was not solely public worship, it was a protest that disrupted an entire school assembly. I would've been fine with it if they had just worn crosses on their caps or even prayed silently before the ceremony, but interrupting the graduation was disrespectful to the other students as well as the school administration. It is in our best interest to prevent such things, because if we let every group chime in openly at those events, nothing would get done.
The ACLU was disrespecting their 1st amendment rights first. If you think about it they were forced to react because their 1st amendment rights were being denied by the bullies at the ACLU and that caused the out burst to happen. Prayers have been done since our beginnings in schools. Had the students been allowed to speak freely as the Constitution prescribes this wouldn't have happened like it did. The ACLU asked for it by bullying the school like they did and therefore were stood up to.
I'm sorry, but the ACLU was completely in the right. Free speech in schools is always limited when the exercise of it causes a disruption or interruption to school ceremonies, educational objectives, etc. The school board has told Pace high school's principal that they will no longer represent him legally - meaning that there are obvious violations going on that the school administration is not happy with. The ACLU came in on behalf of several students, not just to "tear down" the Christians.
You have it backwards my friend..The ACLU caused the disruption by trying to violate the students 1st amendment and when limits as to who can speak at graduation ceremonies were agreed to, it angered the students. So the ACLU caused the disruption with the lawsuit. The students have every right to express their faith in public according to the Constitution and being in a school doesn't change that. This whole separation of church and state is ridiculous. The founders didn't practice it.
Being in a school absolutely changes that. Schools are free to restrict student freedoms as they see fit, when they feel that something is either offensive or would disrupt/interrupt educational activities. If you want the First Amendment rights of students guaranteed in all cases, I hope you'd be consistent and defend the "right" of students to cuss at their teachers without repercussions.
Provide some evidence for your assertions. So far all you've done is make empty declarations.
atheistwatch.. you know as well as I that for appx. 175 yrs prayers and the Bible have been read in schools...evidence abounds on that. As a child it was done in my public school until SCOTUS said what had been done for 175 yrs was all of a sudden unconstitutional. Guess the founding fathers didn't understand the 1st amendment either...it took 175 for a smarter SCOTUS to tell us what they really meant I guess?
There are two things you're not considering about religion in the early schools. First of all, most schools were private and there was no universal standard of education until the mid-1800s. Secondly, most of the original universities were founded as training grounds for ministers, so obviously the bible would've been a huge part of education in those institutions. The answer to you question is simple: the founders had not known of public education when they wrote the first amendment.
You are correct on most of your info, but even after around 1850 the Bible was still read and prayers made in public schools.Bible scripture was used to help students learn to read for around 100 yrs. We still have a 1st amendment that applies there as well today. I experienced this first hand in school myself as a child until the SCOTUS in the 60s said what had been done for 175 yrs was unconstitutional, yet Congress or the states hadn't changed any of the 1st amendment.
They only began to correctly apply the first amendment to public schools then. As I said, the founders had no knowledge or plan for public education in their day, especially not on the scale we have it now. When education finally became a government provision, no one at the time probably considered its impact on the separation of church and state either. Most people were Christians in those days, and the widespread availability of education was the main issue, not how it'd relate to religion.
As far as freedom of cussing at teachers, students used to have more respect of teachers to not do that. In my day they wouldn't have dare done it out loud for three main reasons. One,respect , two students weren't near as vulgar as they are today and showed more respect, three it would have meant discipline from the principal because then that type language wasn't tolerated in schools.
None of this matters. The first amendment very clearly forbids any infringement on speech, so will you defend students' rights to swear at their teachers? The rationale is exactly the same one you use to defend students' rights to protest and worship at any time during school.
Yes it does matter. You are comparing apples to oranges here. Disrespecting teachers by swearing is not a fair comparison to trick me on agreeing with you. As I said, the ACLU forced the protest by trying to block the students 1st amendment rights of the ones that wanted to thank & praise Jesus Christ during their speech. This is another thing that has been done for years & yrs & yrs since our beginnings and now it's unconstitutional? I don't think so.
You're still dodging the issue. A few years ago, several students held a protest with a banner that read, "Bong Hits for Jesus". The SC ruled that it was not protected speech, even though it didn't interrupt or disrupt school activities, but because it was against school policies. You're really not getting that public schools are not remotely the same legal ground as the rest of America. It may seem weird, even unjustified (which I may agree with you on), but that's just how it is.
I wouldn't forbid the students right to swear @ anybody. They might pay the cost for doing so, & as setting up a boundary as a penalty, only teaches them that there are laws to protect them from what you're proposing they try to get away with. If I worked with kids I'd have no right to tell them that they can't cuss, they're going to do it any way. If they get caught by someone who doesn't want them to have this right then they're in trouble. I wouldn't care if they cuss me out. It's just words.
How far would you defend their right to cuss in schools? Any attempt to penalize them for it would be an attempt to restrict their "free speech", wouldn't it? My point is that there are many reasons that schools don't allow students to get away with the same liberties that adults in the rest of America have. Cussing at a teacher, openly expressing your religious views any and every time, and other "rights" become disruptive in a school environment under certain contexts.
What I don't understand here is that you're stating from both sides of your mouth. Down here in the south we call that speaking from your ass. There are boundaries for everyone in a civil society. They are called laws. I am sure you are aware of this. If you have children, then you MUST know those rules they follow are for there own good. But society must also establish rewards or freedoms from the laws. If a student wishes to verbally tell someone they are ugly in no uncertain terms then(cont.)
I'm in the south too, my elitist friend, the deep south, to be exact. You have not illustrated how you think I'm speaking from "both sides" of my mouth though.
18 dislikes, 9 likes... i'm seeing a trend...
quicksliversbutt 3 months ago
thats the way its done. i would kill the man or woman that takes away my rights
KeithwMiller71 5 months ago
a prayer sponsored by the school is unconstitutional, that much has been made clear. the school also cannot approve students speeches beforehand with religious endorsements, at least not at events which the school would be seen as fully approving and endorsing the student. that has also been proven unconstitutional. the hate for the ACLU in unfounded; hate on the constitution or the judges which upheld it if you feel you must vent your anger. i feel for the non-christians in this class.
ACDCfloyd 9 months ago 2
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Those who know Mat Staver personally know he is a selfish, callous individual. Btw, I'm a conservative and will have nothing to do with Mat Staver or what he stands for. He uses and manipulates people to push HIS agenda, not the conservative agenda.
rsampson230 1 year ago
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Those who know Mat Staver personally know he is a selfish, callous individual. Btw, I'm a conservative and will have nothing to do with Mat Staver or what he stands for. He uses and manipulates people to push HIS agenda, not the conservative agenda.
rsampson230 1 year ago
See a special tribute, at onug.us, to the young men and women, students of Pace High School. Their moral courage, physical presence, spiritual resolve, and out pouring of love, stood in stark contrast to the ungodly men and women who came to pervert our Constitution and God's Laws, at a federal courthouse. It was remarkable to witness. They are the next great generation of Americans who will shortly come of age, and help restore this country to her firm foundation of obedience to Christ Jesus!
OneNationUnderGodUSA 1 year ago
@OneNationUnderGodUSA they came to pervert our constitution?? nut job christians are doing this one.. they are cherry picking just like they do with the bible.
scorand 9 months ago
Congratulations to those students!! God bless them!
vigilannie2 1 year ago
laammee
fucklove97ify 1 year ago
And the funny part is that, so long as the prayer was initiated BY the students- with no instigation, support, or encouragement from the government funded school personnel- the ACLU would not object.
BenAliGtor 1 year ago 2
@BenAliGtor to bad the reich wingers wont see that.. they'll make all kinds of bs claims about the aclu trying to take away theier religous rights..
scorand 9 months ago
@scorand: Reich Xians are not the sharpest knives in the drawer when it comes to making distinctions in constitutional or other legal matters, as you have indicated. But the fact is, so long as the mercenary religionists among them can pimp it to the sheeple in the pews as part of their "Christians in America under siege" propaganda, they'll continue to cash in on episodes like this.
BenAliGtor 9 months ago
@BenAliGtor saddly your 100% correct.. to bad they dont use their god givin brains.. and yea pun intended..lol
scorand 9 months ago
Why was the actual prayer not included in this video? I would assume that a video of it would be up a year after it happened.
imsneaky 1 year ago
@ emzirek Your no to smart are you. We have to ban ALL religious practices in school to keep out discrimination between the students. How would you like if A Muslim protested your graduation or ur childrens graduation. These students are nothing but a fucking joke and scum. They have no respect to their fellow graduate students. But I thank them because this is just goign to help keep religious creeps from discriminating other students. I think they should have not received a Diploma
Dustylane2009 1 year ago
@Dustylane2009 it's ppl like u who have no respect for christians, just cuz they don't think like u and are actually happy, ur trying to make them miserable as u are
lover3963 10 months ago
@lover3963 i have seen more of this from christians, but thats how it is when dealing with mass superiority complexes like this. christians just love to play the victim.. yet blatantly ignore how the have no respect for anyone who dont think like they do.
scorand 9 months ago
@scorand now lets not jump to conclusions christians as you described are not true christians just because pretenders do so you dont have to blame it on the whole christian community
131995pinkgirl 2 months ago
@131995pinkgirl well a majority of christians are as i described, so its not just jumping to conclusions. and when you question any of them they'll tell you that just because they call themselves such they cant be wrong becasue christians are always right nomatter the rfeality
scorand 1 month ago
@lover3963 wow. your complaining and making an acusation on dusty that christians so commonly do themselves.. typical.. just because they dont agree with you and are happy it pisses you guys off
scorand 2 months ago
wow, ppl really think the had their right taken away?
ilovetheview47 1 year ago
In this case and all others the freedom of religion students should skip any participation and financial support of the schools program, rent another building, have their own ceremony, and let the little tyrant stand alone at his ceremony.
daddyg321 1 year ago
Do NOT associate with those given to Change! The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. Even a child is known by his deeds, Whether what he does is pure and right. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding, In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty! Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people -Proverbs FEAR NOT
See NWO Solution
Godisyoursolution 1 year ago
Shit is going to hit the fan when a muslim recites a passage from the quarn at thier graduation.
maxhendrixboxer 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Christianity is a Doomsday Cult. But maybe religion should be taught in school-teaching the Truth about it. The Crusades, The Inquisition, Jim Jones, David Koresh-the bible itself indicating a predisposition toward violence. People whom opposed these cults of Christianity, like the inhabitants of the new world were raped & murdered by these people. Religionism is a root of war (Christian or Muslim) these people are terrorists, threatening humanity and futures child. They should be arrested.
ksm1031 2 years ago
You know what? Me and some of my Athiest friends are gonna recite a part of "The God Delusion" To make it fair.
Wolfie9X9 2 years ago
@Wolfie9X9
Yeah? Go ahead - Be that man/woman of action. Let's see how far you really get with that. I doubt you will get far, and probably be laughed at. Go For It!!
emzirek 2 years ago
@emzirek
You are not allowed to interrupt other people's graduation to make a big scene over your own personal religious insecurities.
If Muslim students had stood up to shout out a long series of prayers to Allah, I suspect those Christian students would be the first to go crying and screaming all snot-nosed to the authorities.
This is why we keep public institutions neutral. To keep out the loud and tiresome displays of the self-righteous.
2MassEffect2 2 years ago
State neutrality is preferable to one, endless, self-aggrandizing shouting match.
2MassEffect2 2 years ago
Im not trying to force any beliefs on you . If you choose not to pray thats your right . But dont try to take my right away . Be you and let me be me .
cfuller2k9 2 years ago
cfuller2k9
BE YOU, IN YOUR OWN TIME AND IN YOUR OWN PLACE AND NOT IN CONNECTION WITH ANY STATE OCCASION.
OF COURSE, YOU COULD TRY PRAYING FOR THE RIGHT TO PRAY EVERYWHERE YOU CARE TO BUT NOTHING FAILS LIKE PRAYER, DONCHA KNOW.
TRY GROWING UP? IT WORKS.
draagon66 2 years ago
Even in public I'm in my own place , and being myself . If I choose to pray any where any time ...its my right to do so . And not one of you will ever take that right from me .
cfuller2k9 2 years ago
A graduation is a ceremony honoring all the students, not just the Christian ones. You have the right to pray in silence or display your cross if you like, but interrupting the ceremony is not you right and is down right rude.
kubush 2 years ago
Go right ahead - without disturbing others who genuinely believe that you are an idiot. Keep such activity private, as instructed to do so by your dead leader.
Remember - nothing fails like prayer ... or have you moved any mountains lately?
Time to grow up and find your place within reality and not in a fantasy world.
draagon66 2 years ago
If your taking my time and interrupting my or my children's ceremony with your religious garbage, then you are forcing your beliefs on me. If you want to pray, you can do it in silence or on your own time.
kubush 2 years ago
You may take your atheist garbage elswhere . I will do as I have the right to do . If you dont want to pray with me then I suggest you just get over it . IT WILL NEVER CHANGE .
cfuller2k9 2 years ago
You dont have the right to interrupt a public ceremony like this and push your idiotic beliefs on others.
kubush 2 years ago
cfuller2k9
"It will never change ???"
It is changing. Religion is fading fast. Don't be left behind as humanity frees itself of the shackles of myths and fear of the non-existent.
draagon66 2 years ago
@Wolfie9X9 better make it "The Athiest Delusion" after that one :)
lover3963 10 months ago
Quarantine President Satan and the senate/congress, wash DC! (nothing in, nothing out) out of control swine flu you know!!
(fallenstar . us)
ravenwolf789 2 years ago
I'm rather well educated in the religious field and pretty anti religion but this is absolutely wrong. I applaud them for standing for free speech.
slipknotmaggot127 2 years ago
Really? You applaud them for beating their chest about their self righteous beliefs and disrespecting all the other students and audience?
kubush 2 years ago
You are rather narrow minded arent you ? Only have one point of view ...you say we are pushing our beliefs on you , Then you show hypocracy by trying to push your belief onto us . And if you knew anything about the subject , you would realize self righteous nonsense isnt the real christian way .
cfuller2k9 2 years ago
How do I push my beliefs on you? Did I go and recite The God Delusion at your public graduation? I dont think so.
kubush 2 years ago
If my children want to pray in class , or at graduation then by all means they will. The ACLU has absolutly no authority to stop them . Its absurd , and I will defend my rights vehemently .
cfuller2k9 2 years ago
So you would have no problem with Muslim students interrupting the graduation and praying to Allah? Would you stand up for Muslim students, Hindu students, etc? I very much doubt it. Hypocrite.
kubush 2 years ago 3
hahahahaha, hope suit goes through, roll up the bill of rights and SMAK DEM CHRISTIANS DOWN
might i point out this wonderful explanation?
watch?v=16R4aeYBXww
foamysminion392 2 years ago
aclu American Communist Lawyers Union
mtccollier 2 years ago
Lol, Jesus wins again. Right on, Jesus.
Palavalve 2 years ago
If they get in trouble for it I personally could care less what the punishment is. I mean I'd take a civil stand like they did. But in the same respect they ran me out of the school in 2006. So anything that comes back on them to me is karma. I did nothing wrong the same way they did nothing wrong. So once again i got punished for doing nothing wrong the same wya they are being done now. Again fuck pace high school if they get in trouble over this.
lexielynn19 2 years ago
I'm Agnostic but I can recognize that this protest was great. A big FUCK YOU to the ACLU!! I don't believe in prayer in school but there's nothing wrong with occasional civil disobediance. It's nice to see a politically incorrect group doing it for a change. If a minority religious group did this not only would it not be giving political correctness the finger, but it would be politically incorrect to complain about it. Glad to see these youngsters have not been brainwashed by the liberals!
WICD1969 2 years ago
...by all means do so. The accosted must know that they're in society & shit happens. If a student wants to tell the other that they're ugly & use brute force then you have a boundary issue that needs to be addressed. I've no problem with students having freedom of speech. Let 'em bring it on. They had better be prepared for a verbal encounter with the likes of me, as I can cuss the paint off the wall. Also, we all learn that some peeps in the world you don't mess with. They are fools with guns.
emzirek 2 years ago
No one can stop a student from cussing or telling another kid they're ugly, but students are still punished for such behavior. Do they really have the freedom of speech then, if certain kinds of speech will get them in trouble? Teachers and schools set up boundaries on students' rights in order to ensure that their primary objective of EDUCATION operates smoothly and with as little disruption as possible. This really shouldn't be so hard for you people to grasp.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
@emzirek wow, an internet tough guy who wants to shoot people over a simple parayer? Good grief dude, take you meds.
imsneaky 1 year ago
There is no historical foundation for the proposition that the Framers intended to build a "wall of separation" that was constitutionalized in Everson vs. Board of Education Justice William Rhenquist
Justice William O. Douglas, wrote that forbidding public worship discriminates in favor of "those who believe in no religion over those who do believe."
George Washington, What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
You keep spreading this propaganda, because lying for Jesus is allowed, right?
The separation of church and state is in the writings of the greatest influences on the American founders: John Locke and Charles Montesquieu. It's in the Establishment Clause, it's in the words of the founders themselves, like James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams, and it is in the historical events of the first Pilgrim landing in America and the tyrannical oppression of the Church of England.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
This is no propaganda........it is historical fact!
You won't find the founding fathers practicing "separation of church and state" then as we're made to do today. It isn't in the Constitution.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
The mere fact that the Constitution never invokes God is evidence enough, considering that the Magna Carta, the Articles of Confederation, and many contemporary constitutions did. The founders wanted to keep freedom of religion in America, and they realized that to do so means freedom FROM religion too.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
@countryboy1949 yes they did and its historicly in the constitution. and as stated several times by the founding fathers to protect the people from church dictatorship
scorand 2 months ago
William O. Douglas was not a founder, and your George Washington quote only seems to appear on Christian websites. Any idea what source it comes from? Didn't think so.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
Didn't say William Douglas was a founder, he was a justice on SCOTUS, he should understand law and he wasn't a friend to Christians.
Of course I have the source to the GW quote, you didn't think I would did you. George Washington made that statement while trying to convince the Delaware Indians to be educated in our schools May 12, 1779 and teaching Christianity was a plus to George Washington and other founding fathers...that is historical fact like it or not.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
Actually, the quote is incorrect. The closest thing in that speech is Washington telling the Indians, "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ". Never says anything about Christianity in American schools, Washington only wanted the Indians to follow his religion. I do think Washington was probably a Christian, but his religious views were often kept to himself and he sometimes said discernibly anti-religious things.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
AtheistWatch...you must be kidding..Christianity was in American schools since before the Constitution was ratified. Only in the 20th century when the SCOTUS thought they knew more of what the founding fathers meant than the founders themselves was it stopped.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
What about Christianity was in schools, and where is your evidence?
AtheistWatch 2 years ago 4
You must be kidding AtheistWatch...
countryboy1949 2 years ago
"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
Let. to Ed Newenham
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
Who said this?
countryboy1949 2 years ago
George Washington.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
All this is about is GW hoped the differences in denomination's beliefs would have calmed down in his day, this is not GW disavowing Christianity.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
I didn't say it was. Washington was very private in his views, but also very tolerant. He declined to describe his own religion to people numerous times. Seems like he felt faith was a personal matter, not one for government, which is what I've been saying all along.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
I understand....But Washington as all the other founders didn't see anything wrong with acknowledging God in public even if it was in government buildings and went as far as having Church every Sunday in several gov't bldgs for almost 100 years after the Constitution was signed. The founders did not practice "separation of church & state" as we've been made to do since the 1960s.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
The problem is that what the seniors did was not solely public worship, it was a protest that disrupted an entire school assembly. I would've been fine with it if they had just worn crosses on their caps or even prayed silently before the ceremony, but interrupting the graduation was disrespectful to the other students as well as the school administration. It is in our best interest to prevent such things, because if we let every group chime in openly at those events, nothing would get done.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
The ACLU was disrespecting their 1st amendment rights first. If you think about it they were forced to react because their 1st amendment rights were being denied by the bullies at the ACLU and that caused the out burst to happen. Prayers have been done since our beginnings in schools. Had the students been allowed to speak freely as the Constitution prescribes this wouldn't have happened like it did. The ACLU asked for it by bullying the school like they did and therefore were stood up to.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
I'm sorry, but the ACLU was completely in the right. Free speech in schools is always limited when the exercise of it causes a disruption or interruption to school ceremonies, educational objectives, etc. The school board has told Pace high school's principal that they will no longer represent him legally - meaning that there are obvious violations going on that the school administration is not happy with. The ACLU came in on behalf of several students, not just to "tear down" the Christians.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago 2
You have it backwards my friend..The ACLU caused the disruption by trying to violate the students 1st amendment and when limits as to who can speak at graduation ceremonies were agreed to, it angered the students. So the ACLU caused the disruption with the lawsuit. The students have every right to express their faith in public according to the Constitution and being in a school doesn't change that. This whole separation of church and state is ridiculous. The founders didn't practice it.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
Being in a school absolutely changes that. Schools are free to restrict student freedoms as they see fit, when they feel that something is either offensive or would disrupt/interrupt educational activities. If you want the First Amendment rights of students guaranteed in all cases, I hope you'd be consistent and defend the "right" of students to cuss at their teachers without repercussions.
Provide some evidence for your assertions. So far all you've done is make empty declarations.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
atheistwatch.. you know as well as I that for appx. 175 yrs prayers and the Bible have been read in schools...evidence abounds on that. As a child it was done in my public school until SCOTUS said what had been done for 175 yrs was all of a sudden unconstitutional. Guess the founding fathers didn't understand the 1st amendment either...it took 175 for a smarter SCOTUS to tell us what they really meant I guess?
countryboy1949 2 years ago
There are two things you're not considering about religion in the early schools. First of all, most schools were private and there was no universal standard of education until the mid-1800s. Secondly, most of the original universities were founded as training grounds for ministers, so obviously the bible would've been a huge part of education in those institutions. The answer to you question is simple: the founders had not known of public education when they wrote the first amendment.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
You are correct on most of your info, but even after around 1850 the Bible was still read and prayers made in public schools.Bible scripture was used to help students learn to read for around 100 yrs. We still have a 1st amendment that applies there as well today. I experienced this first hand in school myself as a child until the SCOTUS in the 60s said what had been done for 175 yrs was unconstitutional, yet Congress or the states hadn't changed any of the 1st amendment.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
They only began to correctly apply the first amendment to public schools then. As I said, the founders had no knowledge or plan for public education in their day, especially not on the scale we have it now. When education finally became a government provision, no one at the time probably considered its impact on the separation of church and state either. Most people were Christians in those days, and the widespread availability of education was the main issue, not how it'd relate to religion.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago 2
As far as freedom of cussing at teachers, students used to have more respect of teachers to not do that. In my day they wouldn't have dare done it out loud for three main reasons. One,respect , two students weren't near as vulgar as they are today and showed more respect, three it would have meant discipline from the principal because then that type language wasn't tolerated in schools.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
None of this matters. The first amendment very clearly forbids any infringement on speech, so will you defend students' rights to swear at their teachers? The rationale is exactly the same one you use to defend students' rights to protest and worship at any time during school.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago 2
Yes it does matter. You are comparing apples to oranges here. Disrespecting teachers by swearing is not a fair comparison to trick me on agreeing with you. As I said, the ACLU forced the protest by trying to block the students 1st amendment rights of the ones that wanted to thank & praise Jesus Christ during their speech. This is another thing that has been done for years & yrs & yrs since our beginnings and now it's unconstitutional? I don't think so.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
You're still dodging the issue. A few years ago, several students held a protest with a banner that read, "Bong Hits for Jesus". The SC ruled that it was not protected speech, even though it didn't interrupt or disrupt school activities, but because it was against school policies. You're really not getting that public schools are not remotely the same legal ground as the rest of America. It may seem weird, even unjustified (which I may agree with you on), but that's just how it is.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
It wasn't that way for the first 175 yrs of our history, until the SC make new law based on nothing.
Yes it is weird and unconstitutional.
countryboy1949 2 years ago
I wouldn't forbid the students right to swear @ anybody. They might pay the cost for doing so, & as setting up a boundary as a penalty, only teaches them that there are laws to protect them from what you're proposing they try to get away with. If I worked with kids I'd have no right to tell them that they can't cuss, they're going to do it any way. If they get caught by someone who doesn't want them to have this right then they're in trouble. I wouldn't care if they cuss me out. It's just words.
emzirek 2 years ago
How far would you defend their right to cuss in schools? Any attempt to penalize them for it would be an attempt to restrict their "free speech", wouldn't it? My point is that there are many reasons that schools don't allow students to get away with the same liberties that adults in the rest of America have. Cussing at a teacher, openly expressing your religious views any and every time, and other "rights" become disruptive in a school environment under certain contexts.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago
What I don't understand here is that you're stating from both sides of your mouth. Down here in the south we call that speaking from your ass. There are boundaries for everyone in a civil society. They are called laws. I am sure you are aware of this. If you have children, then you MUST know those rules they follow are for there own good. But society must also establish rewards or freedoms from the laws. If a student wishes to verbally tell someone they are ugly in no uncertain terms then(cont.)
emzirek 2 years ago
I'm in the south too, my elitist friend, the deep south, to be exact. You have not illustrated how you think I'm speaking from "both sides" of my mouth though.
AtheistWatch 2 years ago