Salman Rushdie - Machiavelli's Bad Rap

[SHITCAKES4U]

Either you will give me this video, or I will take it by force. muhahahaha.

[darkillity]

Machiavelli was a republican and not a democrat, Mr. Rushdie.

[Creativethinking2000]

You are so right! Check out ‘The mind of a leader animation series – Machiavelli’ and you will get a better understanding. Cool short visual version!

[jimberkt]

DO people really think that way about Machiavelli? I've never even read his book but i feel that I've known for a long time that Machiavellian referred to what he exposed in his writing rather than how he acted. Maybe he's just unfortunate that his name made a better adjective than the title of his book.

His character in Assassin's Creed is pretty interesting. He works against the ruling elite but the other characters are always suspicious of him.

[noobler9]

there are 2 natures, conservative and liberal, there are two upbringings, conservative and liberal

he seems a conservative by nature and a liberal by nurture ;) (machiavelli)

he has a certain... attitude and general like of certain glorious things, but has the life experience to realize when some of those might not be the best and why an optimist by upbringing with a cautious disposition, better than someone who's overly optimistic in practice but cynical at heart

anyone get what I mean?

[noobler9]

@08infidel I have no idea why you deleted your post, it's actually one of the more ingenuitive explanations of why the terms liberals and conservatives are so far off in case people are wondering what he said, it's basically that we use liberal and conservative today to mean right and left wing, but the thing is, that liberal... liberty.... already has won out

so we have a general society of liberal conservatives and liberal progressives mostly

[08infidel]

@noobler9 I probaly deleted it by accident. I know is mostly in North America that we seem to have this dilemna, in Europe for example you have Socialist and Populist movements. I think is that people in our continent view Socialism as something bad and the political party's labeled themselves Democrats or Progressive. I am amazed what you told me about the political situation in Canada. In the States many people seemed to forget that the meaning of Liberalism.

[noobler9]

@08infidel well, it's common in most societies throughout history actually I PERSONALLY haven't forgotten, we have a term for those things, "classical liberalism/conservatism" the democrats and republicans have kind of switched it almost seems, with republicans the southerners and democrats the northerners, it was the other way in the civil war could just be a human condition thing our liberals today and our conservatives today... evolved from those groups

[noobler9]

@08infidel I think what it is is that a group or party sees a slight, or a problem, or something of that sort caused by an excess of something, then they go full out against it, then they win, their views are considered "the best, the underdog's choice, the freest" and then they dominate a bit, and then you go the other way there's more to it than that, but that's the simplest explanation, a tug of war between two legitimate ideas, but to win when one side struggles, you gotta go all out

[noobler9]

@08infidel or not even really two legitimate ideas, but two general dispositions even it's not a stable pole however, they definitely mutate you ever notice how liberals and conservatives both call each other nazis for different reasons? the most worrisome part to me is that the nazis aren't special, they might've been the best at what they did but they were not by any means the only game in town, at all. at any time. even today. even here (we think they were, over in north america)

[noobler9]

@08infidel in fact, if you look back throughout history, this stuff ALWAYS occurs in times of decline there's a recurring history where those who are on the rise are usually the nicest (to those they identify with and identify with them) and those in decline are nasty brutish pieces of work who are xenophobic and all that look at nixon for instance, that kind of "everyone's out to get a piece of me" attitude is the most common thing and it's terrifying or perception of decline even.

[noobler9]

@08infidel I mean, look at north america in the 90's, ex communists? COME ON OVER! the expectation being "they know they lost, so all's well everyone knows our values are the best values" canada is attached to the USA in a large way pox americana will continue as it's decline worstens it's temper, just like a child who's hungry or tired ;) I really meant it when I said human condition, just look at children, most only hide it better, only a few counter it better in themselves

[noobler9]

@noobler9 sorry, most adults only hide it better, and only a few learn to counter it better in themselves, it's a hard thing to do after all and if you actually talk to most, well

even churchill said "the best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with your average voter" you gotta admit the oligarch's criticism of democracy is valid, the trick is... to admit these things, and work against them, if you truly believe democracy is worth it DESPITE these problems.

[noobler9]

@noobler9 oh, and don't forget apathy, the "I don't care" in all of this it's REALLY tempting to say "you don't care? then you won't mind if I DO THIS!" and then raise poor people's taxes or something but then I think, naw, that's just mean, how about a true democrat in power acts like an oligarch and does symbolic stuff that REALLY riles up the people, but gives justifications that are really crappy and the kinds oligarchs would give but.... doesn't do anything that'd actually harm.

[noobler9]

@08infidel I come from canada however, and both parties are "progressive" in their own right, so liberal and conservative are a lot more accurate, harper's conservatives (he officially renamed the prime minister's office to harper government, ego much?) are more regressive than conservative and the liberal party is more conservative and the NDP is more progressive canada's kind of got it's george bush 10 years after

[noobler9]

@noobler9 but by that I mean the cons want to bring back the old days or something, mostly the parts we consider bad usually, the liberals want to conserve by which I mean keep the system more or less the same with some improvements over time and the NDP wants to change it more along the lines that the liberals did the cons however have done like 3-4 mergers, starting with some really fringe right wing parties so there's vote splitting amongst other parties, but not their end

[MrStrategicmarketing]

Machiavelli was a genius. Cynical but a genius! Check out 'the mind of a leader animations - Machiavelli'.

[alibenhaal]

Cynical but extremely smart guy! Check out the animated moderne intrepretaion of chapter 7: The mind of a leader animation series Machiavelli.

OR if you want to go deeper into the subject visit the modern leadership series: The mind of a leader Machiavelli.

[abdakbar]

must listen a mind blowing debate by sheikh ahmed deedat topic is "How Rushdie fooled the west" u will come to know what type of write He is!!

available on u tube

[zyxek]

@abdakbar All I got from that lecture is that Rushdie is a bad writer for using curse words and making fun of Margaret Thatcher. It's not real literary criticism by any means. It was interesting for me to see that Muslim thinkers benefit from telling their co-religionists what they want to hear in the same way Christian leaders in the U.S. do.

[HevyToy]

what point did he try come to?

[mobspeak]

Salman Rushdie completely misses the point.. and is a wannabe.

[wpfairbanks]

@mobspeak What are you talking about? What is, in your eyes, the point?

[ActivismTT]

Machiavelli was not Machiavellian....brilliant!

[reivenlocke]

@ActivismTT

Jesus was not a Christian and Buddha wasn't a Buddhist either.

[mavishill]

@reivenlocke makes sense to me, if i'm inferring it right.

[HCLcoasters]

This guy is so Posh!

[LordBifford]

2:05 That's how you play humans!

[epiksonik]

I really don't care for the popular opinion of past figures...Kissinger etc..the company of wolves, alive now..that is what frustrates me.

[saraa49]

great man, spoke the truth about the devil

[drako132313]

we must stop playing games (monopoly) and start doing real work like building a machine that can build more machines to make are lives easier than focus on creating clean energy devices and build another robot to build these machine these tool that we need really what do we really need politics or technology...think about...EX: pencil cars planes ect..wake up my people my brothers and sisters we are one.

[kipdec2]

There is a specific chapter in the prince in which machiavelli discusses princes who come into power by evil means and he says that that is the absolute most difficult way to keep power. Very few of the commenters seem to have read the book. They only seem to know the history associated with it. Throughout the book machiavelli outlines how certain policies benefit the people in the long run. He recognized that a leader had to maintain a certain balance or be an absolute tyrant to remain in power

[fluffynoses]

if only Machiavelli was alive today. he would give appropriate counsel to world leaders on how to deal with the most dangerous forces in the world today: Mob stupidity.

haha i'm laughing just thinking of the slaughter that Machiavelli would recommend to take care of those teabag fuckers

[Razaviyya]

Salman Rushdie should be killed now. He is a culprit of Muslims. He hurt muslim feelings due to his bogus book :Satanic Versis. He should be killed now. I am waiting for his death. He will die very soon. He is a bastard. Kick in the ass of salman rushdie. Go to hell. His face is worst than a pig.

[DruidB19]

@Razaviyya Ahahaha... He hurt muslim feelings? so lets kill him?

Go cry yourself to sleep over your hurt feelings.

The koran is a Bogus Book... along with the bible.

[Kiarinadia]

@DruidB19 I like your astute replay!

[Chrshonore]

fuck you

[GSW12345]

@Razaviyya still waiting on that death? hahaha go die in a hole.

[hippomancy]

machiavelli wrote longingly about the greek and roman ideal of democracy, but recognised that what the common person needed first was stability of country. in his day, it was only provided in the italian states by strong princes. don't forget he held a part in the florentine republic. so what he was advocating in a ruthless ruler ideally trickled down to the powerless majority as a peaceful community without constant threat of wars or lawlessness.

[TruthNotMedia]

What exactly is that fool rushdie is blabbing about?!! Any beginner psychoanalyst would tell you he is a dyslexia patient.

[TruthNotMedia]

Intrinsically there should be no more choice between Islam and Christianity than there is between an Arab and a Jew. The decision is already reached; nobody remains at liberty to choose here. Either a man is a Chandala or he is not. . . . "War to the knife with Rome! Peace and friendship with Islam.

From Excerpt 59.. The Anti Christ..Nietzsche.

[TruthNotMedia]

Machiavelli's works were plagiarized from the Muslim jurist, philosopher and theologian Abu Hamid Al Ghazali (1058-111).

He wrote "Counsil of Kings" as a set of advices for Muslim rulers so they avoid exploiting their people and stick to Islamic law...He was an abundant author of metaphysics, Jurisprudence, philosophy, politics... while poor-minded thief Machiavelli managed to plagiarize only a few works of Al Ghazali... Search for yourself.

[felisleo101]

And did it occur to you that Ghazali might have been plagiarizing his work from the Hindu political philsopher Chānakya (350283 BCE) who wrote his treatise the Arthashastra on statecraft and "Machiavellian" politics. It was written well over a millennium before Ghazali's work.

[Giovannisenzaterra]

Niccolo' , with the accent,Mr. Foratv

[escobar8899]

fuck you salman rushdie....ride on my dick u ass hole...a true bastard!!!!

[ramblinjonee]

you want to have sex with salman rushdie?

[BahmanG]

why do you dislike him?

[fromwilliams]

Rushdie is like a child who needs to be the center of attention. One of the cheapest ways to catch attention is to insult or harm a great or famous personality. This is the strategy used by those mad individuals who have assassinated or tried to assassinate, U.S. presidents in order to catch the word's attention and make a name for themselves.

[XxxNuMbxxX0301]

There seems to be several discontent Muslims on this forum. I suggest that you all learn to read at a level which would allow you to read one of Rushdie's books; perhaps then you will cease to spew all the platitudinous invective.

[Giovannisenzaterra]

Finally somebody says the true about Machiavelli

[caballaria]

The truth about Machiavelli... that he gave great parties, that he was a charismatic, socially successful fellow who cheated on his wife? Those trait are actually very typical of psychopaths! I can't believe that Rushdies actually gives that argument in defense of Machiavelli's personal character.

[noronhacandrew]

@caballaria : Those are traits common between all famous personalities, no psychopaths. I feel like writing a more detailed comment- but after reading your comment, I think you are a fool and really not worth the trouble.

[caballaria]

Machiavelli was not just amoral, he was very immoral.

He accepted the notion that a prince should do whatever works to keep himself in power. That is the very definition of evil.

The typical defense "but he just described things as they are" is nonsense. He didn't just describe the rules of the game, he actually maintained that the ONLY goal of the prince must be to remain in power.

"Things as they are" is that the government should benefit the people, not the government itself.

[Giovannisenzaterra]

I think you don't have even read "The Prince"

[caballaria]

I did.

Maybe you did not.

Machiavelli (as he uses historical examples of "good" and "bad" princes) consistently considers worthy and successful those princes who remained in power, and unworthy and not successful those who lost their power. That is the ONLY method he uses to decides which ones did right and which ones did wrong.

He never asks if the princes he considers "good" actually benefited their people.

[felisleo101]

Why on Earth would that matter? He was writing the manual for leaders who wanted to maintain their power, not for people who want to benefit their people. It's not that the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, but you seem to be forgetting why the Hell the book was written in the first place.

[caballaria]

It's especially ridiculous when Rushdie says "Machiavelli is not Machiavellian". Makes me wonder whether he himself has read it.

[felisleo101]

You do not know a single thing about Niccolo Machiavelli's life, do you?

[XCidePharmaceuticals]

@caballaria

Machiavelli said, in plain terms,that there is a difference between what "should" be done, and what "must" be done. While he condones doing "evil" things, he never said that "evil is good". He merely said that said "evil" act would be efficient.

[LordBifford]

He tells it like it is. It's horrific, but that's how the world really works. Many great leaders since have employed Machiavelli's principles, and we often don't realize it because his ideas don't necessarily require violence to follow.

[XCidePharmaceuticals]

Exactly.

And anyway, "The Prince" was only a small part of Machiavelli's political philosophy. He has entirely different views in "The Discourses".

[felisleo101]

You really didn't listen to a word Rushdie said, did you?

[toshiamata]

Satanic Salman will rush to die in hell, there's no way out for him.

[fromwilliams]

His main notoreity is for pissing off muslims and then getting armed guards and safe houses and pissing away millions of tax payers money for many years.

[alichoturko]

we protect our people's rights, even if it calls for millions.

[fromwilliams]

He's making a living from being a shit stirrer. I don't see him being peaceful or progressive.

[TheWilliamcale]

islam is a false and perverse religion

[Nades129]

you poor poor deceived maggot

[truecall2]

Nades129 you poor poor deceived TWAT.

Who has also put his head up salman rushdies arss.

[sonabliz]

He is damn a great writer and I belive all those crtics on religion, women and culture happen when ppl take a statement too personal. He is not only a writer but a true artist through his books. To understand his book one has to keep real history in mind but on the same level should be open to unreal issues. This combination of facts and phantasy makes it hard for the readers to realize where he crosses the line between these two spheres.

[patinsufi]

THE BOOK "JESUS IN INDIA" WRITTEN BY HADHRAT MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD THE PROMISED MESSIAH (peace be upon him). HADHRAT MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD (peace be upon him) WROTE THIS BOOK IN APRIL 1896. That is his great great grand father.

[benj008]

quite an intellect... this is the first time I've heard of him.. are his book any good?

[scotty123123]

Yes, he's definitely one of the (very few) great novelists alive! And, how fortunate we are, that he is still alive

[OZMYMAN]

if you are so intelligent then read what rushdie writes about women on page 261 of his SV..does that describe your mum your sister or your daughter.the man has made you look like an idiot HE WRITES ALL WHITE WOMEN ARE FOR FXXXING AND THROWING OVER

[felisleo101]

Like you care?

[25thGuardian]

Rushdi said some Barbaric things about Western Women and the Queen herself.

Then the applause for him is just as stupid as saying that a Wolf will guard the sheep instead of eating them.

He said bad things about Hindu-ism so Respectable Rajeev Gandhi banned him in India.

All I am saying that he said too many things Racists about many Religions and Races.

A loose character should not be appreciated like that.

If you want to Argue about this , do this in a Civilized manner.

[veninks]

maybe those who appreciate him do so because of his criticisms? humans are not perfect, yet the people in our age are very sensitive to being told they're "wrong" from other people. some of us view this sensitive attitude as potentially dangerous since bad institutions could prevail, simply because no one wants to offend them.

[peteyweet]

@25thGuardian: I'm a big fan of his writing but have heard others also cite misogyny as one of his faults - are you able to provide a link showing the "Barbaric things about Western Women and the Queen herself"?

[altosax1st]

Please give an example (along with its context) of babaric things he has said on the topic of western women.

Racist things about religion??? That makes absolutely no sense. And what do you mean by 'loose character'?

[25thGuardian]

Have you met any locals that witnessed what kind of person is that ? If not , then only that can answer your question.

'cause I don't trust media , Generally killers are heroes on Media these days.

His books were based on False Propaganda, Misquoting verses is his style.

One thing he said that I remembered is something like this.He said "Western Women Including Queen herself are like Tissue papers , Disposeable".

Is this fair ?

And this is before Rajeev Gandhi Banned him.

[25thGuardian]

Respectable "Rajeev Gandhi" banned him in India, and his actions were based upon this person's character.

I answered 'cause you asked in a polite manner and I appreciate it.

I know that you don't wanna believe me and these arguments don't often bring up the solution , so This will be all from me.

Thank you very much.

[25thGuardian]

I am sending you a link , since you wanted references from his Book.

Can't Posting link here 'cause it gets marked as a spam.

[alichoturko]

I can't wait to get his new book

[cantab98]

Rushdie is quite correct when he asserts that Machiavelli's thought is far too frequently oversimplified and, thus, misinterpreted. He was essentially a republican who, let's not forget, served under Piero Soderini during the brief but happy period between Medici rule. Quentin Skinner has written several truly excellent studies of Machiavelli. As they are contemporaries, I doubt that Rushdie had the chance to hear Skinner speak during his time at Cambridge. A pity.

[LordBifford]

@cantab98 People regard The Prince as some sort of Unholy Bible that will corrupt anyone who reads it.

[cantab98]

I was quite amazed that Rushdie didn't incorporate Machiavelli's concept of fortune into this otherwise lovely novel centered around the character of the beautiful, quasi-divine embodiment of feminine charm, Qara-Koz. Fortuna is, after all, the feminine power against which Il Macchia uses all of his intellectual powers (ultimately unsuccessfully, as we see in the Istorie fiorentine) to subdue. An interesting opportunity missed.

[ayeshter]

Why said I hate him? I'm just saying I hate how people paint him to be a victim of Islamic bigotry when, to a certain extent he brought it on him self. Anyways, most Muslims don't care anymore.The Aytollah alone con not represent the collective view of a billion people and is dead anyway.

[SockbatReplica]

Well I hate how muslims complain about the stereotype that they are violent people when they clearly bring that upon themselves.

[felisleo101]

No, you stupid idiot--The Ayatollah Khomeini brought it on him. Rushdie published a book. A book no one had to read, but people took it upon themselves to get offended with. He didn't go into a mosque during noon-day prayers and shit upon a Koran. He wrote a book that might be seen as slightly offensive, and thus you say he deserves death. I think people who think like you do are actually worse than men like Khomeini. At least you know were you stand with them.

[ayeshter]

@felisleo101 such nasty language! No, he didn't do somthing that profane, but still, you put a product out there, like that, at as turbulent political times as the 1980's, you have to expect shit to happen. Rushdie is Muslim, or at least raised Muslim (as many conveniently over look) him self. He knew how controversial his material was, but whent with it anyway.

[stefanswe]

@ayeshter

Even if he did know how offensive it would be, he still went ahead with it and he should be applauded for it.

A knighthood is the least we can do for this man

[noronhacandrew]

@ayeshter He did not bring it on himself- he wrote a book. It was a serious book. It was however fiction. I find the zealotry of hardcore Islam annoying and stupid beyond measure. He just made fun of the pope in this interview. For some reason I doubt anyone in the audience was considering stabbing him over it. Its not a religious thing- its about lack of intelligence and education. Educate the Middle East more, maybe they will start thinking sense on the whole.

[reivenlocke]

@noronhacandrew

The Satanic Verses were based on real scriptures stricken from Islamic dogma. It's screwed up that a religion can become so zealous that you would try to kill people that portray your holy figures as anything less than a symbol of perfection.

It's because of crap like this and fundamental Christian hatemongering that I opted out of organized religion years ago.

[CuntleyCrisco]

A "profound democrat" maligned by history? Hahahaha.

[ayeshter]

Oh come on, he knew perfectly well how much Satanic Verses would piss off Muslims. He wanted to be provocative and was successful. Anyway, he got a hell of a lot of publicity and is pretty much lionized as a champion of free speech in the western world. His strategy worked.

[FUCKYOURGODINTHEASS]

Makiavelli's the man. Read Belfagor:the devil who took a wife.

[jcadwell1172]

good username, rile 'em up!