In all this game, the devil is losing and at the end will be accused of everything because GOD don’t want any rivals. Conclusion: live at the full in the freedom of GOD (praying in a right form, following the INSTRUCTIONS in the Bible - keeping the 10 commandments - including keeping the Saturday as the 7th day etc.) instead of in the incapacity and limited power of devil because he is just a temporary puppet. Jesus Christ is the savior and hope.
everyone needs to really pay attention and open their damn ear's. BY WHAT ALA FRIENDS ARE SAYING, ITS OBVIOUS HE WAS THE ZODIAC. FORENSIC SCIENTIST MUST HAVE MESSED UP DNA TEST, BECAUSE ITS ALA
@jessetrend19 no, i do not agree with that, because i mean that DNA is the best evidence thing that can be used in such crime cases, and that it would never be just what a person is saying, because i mean that there is and will always be people that would claim that they knows something that others did not know at all, like they are more clever than those that did not know it. I also mean that it would be a very strange thing to do, if the zodiac atually said to a person things like that.
Of all seriousness. I've been looking into this and have been obsessed on and off, when time permits about the "whodunnit" thing, since 1988. When I read the first book by Graysmith. I personally believe that Rick Marshall had something to do with this as well as Leigh. I believe that there were more than one person involved in this. Maybe multiple persons. There isn't enough characters on here to xplain my thoughts. Anyone here involved in a serious forum, for casual discussion? Thanks, Shawn..
Two things, for all you naysayers- the print on the cab is quite possibly NOT the killer's. it was a CAB. a public TRANSPORT. second, the letters were probably written with transparencies and/or overhead projector, eliminating the personal stamp read by a handwriting expert. Allen ALSO was known to have other people lick stamps and envelopes for him. Looks like a duck, smells like a duck, walks like a duck, its PROBABLY A DUCK.
"I will make this very clear. My one reason I am killing. If I don't kill I am likely too abandon my chance to collect my slaves for the afterlife. Even when I know you can't find me I am not safe walking if I am collect my slaves. When slaves you found saved dead in a car. He changed his mind and road form me. He walked by without hiding from me. Nothing was safe. He was hiding a knife. You even listened too my slave was calling for help." 340 cipher
Oh come on, if this guy told him that he was going to call himself the Zodiac and showed him places where he would commit crimes, why the feck didn't he go to the police, when the killers where happening. Sorry but it doesn't make any real sense.
i wont buy that bs i beleive he wasnt the zodiac was a guinius that was very obviouse but i beleive he was a cover up... if not when they gave this man writing test he knew what was going on him being a genuis and just blew it off... i beleive he wasnt as sick as many beived he was.
He took a polygraph test and passed it... later they took his DNA and compared it to the DNA on the envelope (you know how you lick it closed) and it wasn't a match. IDK, I think he did it... bastard. Oh well, he's dead now and probably disappointed to realize those people he killed aren't his "slaves in the afterlife." What a nutcase.
My Thoery is the reason they couldnt match Arthur Leigh Allen's writing to that of ZODIAC is because he hired someone to write the letters for him. Bottom Line How-ever Arthur Leigh Allen is the DAMN ZODIAC.
@valiantbros I'm sorry, I know you posted this10 months ago, but, he hired someone to write the letters?? That makes no sense coz, don't you think the person he hired would wonder what he was talking about, in said letters? Also, the letters were published in the newspapers.
wheres your evidence? you must know somthing we dont know. everything they had on allen was sercom stancial. All the forensic evidence said it WASNT allen. It most likely wasnt him, and anyone smart wouldnt write any of those letters or pay someone to do it, That theory is rediculous.
If Lee Chainy is so credible, why would he even carry on conversations with ALA about killings and fictitious killer names? If an acquaintance of mine started that conversation, I'd disassociate myself. If it was a roommate, I'd move out.
I am curious if Cheney had some kind of personal grudge againts Arthur Leigh Allen and he made up the story about Allen making all those comments to him.
@Christopher711 certainly its possible,but haven't others verified Cheney's accounts?Supposedly when he said the majority of the "Id call myself Zodiac" stuff it was at a party.
it for sure was ALA look he was smart enough to pull off this shit he was a college grad 2 times a teacher a junior chemist his Iq was above 130 put your ego aside and truely ask yourself what your Iq was propably lile 120 max do bullshitt yourself he was defiently intelligent enough to pull this off and the evidence is pretty amazing, if this case happened today he would but arrested and convicted for sure. Before you send my some bullshit about your Iq and my spelling hopefully you will think.
Both my spelling and, likely my IQ, are superior to yours, but I completely agree that ALA was the Zodiac. All evidence points to him. The DNA test on the stamp was ludicrously assumed to be DNA of the Zodiac. The only discrepancy was the Stein murder, and that was done by someone else and Zodiac took credit for it.
thing is, no REAL evidence points to allen. its all sercom stancial. Any smart person that knows the law, knows you can NOT convict someone on sercom stance.
That theory is very compelling at first blush but the more you think about it the more preposterous it sounds. Graysmith, for one, gives a good enough list of reasons why the Unabomber can't have been Zodiac.
While I wasn't convinced by the theory (unabomber was pretty much cleared as a suspect) I was very intrigued by Oswell's work on Zodiac's psychiatric profile. It's more freudian in nature but very informative. He shed a lot of new light on the mindset and pathology of Z and even worked to define terms like serial killer and mass murderer and differentiated them. BTW: He argued Z was more of a mass murderer.
Wild speculation, explaining away solid physical evidence with theories doesn't help the case Zarakhast, it hurts it. Research is making a theory based on the facts. It is not about making facts based upon a theory. Allow yourself to be led by the facts.
It's not that I believe that two people being involved is inconceivable, it's just unsupported. In fact, that theory is often used to continue to implicate ALA even after physical evidence cleared him.
Then there's also the possibility that the killer was capable of writing in different styles of handwriting at will - altering it to serve different purposes. If he'd studied this subject then he might have been able to do it. Also, what about the 'grey box' ? What was in that box ? Was it ever found ? And as for there having been no evidence in Allen's basement - would you, if you'd been the killer, have kept it there, knowing that the police suspected you ? Of course not !
Oh a grey box! Damn I'm glad we don't live in a world where a man can be executed because he once had a grey box.
Well your letters are in the cyphers. Your smile masks psychotic rage.
BTW: What were the books? I asked you once but then again, you avoid every question that I ask. I've been asking for two weeks for even the slightest bit of evidence showing more than one killer and you avoid them.
The grey box was mentioned in Graysmith's book. As far as I remember his sister-in-law was the one who mentioned it. Frankly, I hope that if ALA was innocent was innocent then his accusers rot in hell - because the world doesn't need nasty people such as his accusers were.
Graysmith is hardly to be trusted and you yourself have said that. He has misquoted several people and has quoted several dubious sources like Cheney and Spinelli.
Z may still be alive and at large. That's the real injustice.
I totally agree with you about the dubiousness of Graysmith's book. It's good reading. But there are so many things in it which make you doubt, and it's hardly conclusive. To call it (the second book) 'Zodiac Unmasked' is going too far : the title was obviously meant just to help sell the book. What he says certainly doesn't prove anything. And the fact that they basically ruined his remaining days by persecuting him without evidence of his guilt makes them look bad in my book.
Yup. But you want to know the funny thing? It was the Yellow Book and "Bob Hall Starr" that got me interested in Z. Then irony hits with the amateur community which is largely responible for exposing Graysmith's own work. His own creation turned on him.
I became suspicious of the yellow book when Greysmith was building up a case against Marshall and then BOOM, forget Marshall, let's talk Allen.
BTW on Marshall, it appears he was finally cleared but I cannot confirm it.
Yes he did die recently in a nursing home. Tom Voigt, owner of the Zodiackiller website, said LE (not sure which department) cleared Marshall after they had a conversation with Marshall shortly before he died. However there has been was official statement or documentation and Mr. Voigt did not elaborate on why Marshall was cleared. He still lists Marshall as a current suspect on his site. I haven't been able to confirm that Marshall was officially cleared as a Z suspect.
BTW: There was NO official statement or documentation accompanying Mr. Voigt's announcement. I'm a terrible typpist. Hey, Z was a bad speller tooo. 8^)
So you were Z all along then ! (Only kidding). I've stumbled on a number of highly interesting Z-related discussions on Tom Voigt's site. There's some very good analytical thought on there and some very creative thought too. But I agree with you that it would help if when Voigt or someone else decides that someone is certainly innocent he would say why he has come to that conclusion. And yes, why is Marshall still up there as a major suspect if he's been cleared ?
Well I could see keeping Marshall up there just for historical purposes but if he was cleared, I'd like to know why. I've always thought Marshall was an intriguing suspect and one we knew little about. However if he was officially cleared, Voigt should make a note of that where Marshall is listed as a suspect. I see you have stumbbled onto my activitys on youtube. But I have been too smart and clever for you. You cannot catch me you will run all over after my fake clews and then tier out 8)
This is not a court of law - it's just a stupid YouTube video. I've absolutely no interest in anyone ever being executed, btw, because I don't believe in the DP (another discussion). But the onus is not on me or anyone else, in a case which is unsolved, to 'prove' a theory. It's just a theory - no better and no worse than the theory that one person both wrote the letters and committed the murders. I could equally challenge you to prove that : and you wouldn't be able to do so.
It is your burden to prove a claim or to back up a theory you have made, both publicly. And you did make the claim that two people were involved. Welcome to the internet.
and no I don't believe you have any interest in seeing anyone executed. Obviously you are very interested in the Zodiac case and have researched it. I think you're on the wrong path. Keep looking though. If evidence can be found of more than one person then that would be incalcuably valuable.
One of the Zodiac letters taunted police by saying 'I have been too clever for you'. Now it wouldn't have been 'too clever' of him to have written the letters himself, in his own handwriting and with his palm prints all over the place would it ? Give the Zodiac a bit more credit ! He WAS too clever for the authorities : they never caught him. You surely need to think a little less simplistically than to rule out Allen on the basis of non-matching handwriting and DNA samples.
Oh Zodiac said he was too clever. That's an astounding revelation! That's why Allen is guilty!
Leaving prints on the letters and at the crime scene is EXACTLY what Z did do. And they match.
So Z was a lying braggart. That isn't "evidence." He also said he wore cement fingertip guards. LIE!
LE has cleared suspects on LESS evidence that clears Allen (on PRINTS ALONE.) LE is so confident in them they have cleared 2500 suspects on the prints alone. PRINTS, DNA and handwriting.
Oh: Let's add in 3 search warrants that turned up NOTHING establishing Allen as the Z. Let's add passing a 10 hour polygraph. Let's add incredible witnesses like Cheney and Spinelli. Even the circumstancial evidence against Allen, when looked at closely, falls apart.
The searches were never likely to yield anything if the killer was clever enough to get rid of any substantial evidence in advance. And in the case of Allen they gave him adequate forewarning. I don't think you understand my position : I think it was an outrage to accuse ALA (PUBLICLY - and via the book. The worst thing was the televised news interview!) But it's still possible that it was him. They just shouldn't have made it public. Almost as bad as murder in my book.
Lying braggart or not, he has evaded detection ! No-one knows who he was.
I haven't examined them but if the palm-prints on the letters match then, yes, they will have been from the same person. But that doesn't mean that they were Zodiac's prints. I really don't see what problem there is with this idea. It may not be right but these prints don't match those of any other suspect and so - you must think they were made by someone else ....
Fingerprints on the letter and at the crime scene match. Those prints from the crime scene have been matched to other confirmed Z crime scenes. So yes, the prints came from Z. LE is so confident that the 38 prints they have are Zs they have cleared 2500 suspects on them.
The only problem I have with the two killer theory is NO EVIDENCE. From simple logic we can deduce at least one killer. But we need evidence to suggest two killers.
All right then : taking your last two sentences I don't see logical agreement between them. I wasn't arguing, btw, for two killers. I was merely suggesting a collaboration between a letter-writer and a killer (for some bizarre reason, known only to them). Whether there is any evidence for this theory though would depend - just as would the theory of a single killer - on what really happened. That's something you can't 'assume' - especially in a case unsolved for 40 years !
Oh stop it zarak. There is no logical disagreement. Keep researching the case. Who knows what will be revealed tomorrow. Read that as encouraging a fellow Z researcher and me keeping an open mind.
I'll always keep an open mind and will always be ready to admit that I'm wrong. I'm only new to this anyway but it fascinates me. Certainly no offence taken.
He is not the Zodiac. He was their main suspect, he died in the early 90's from a heart attach and they compared his finger/palm print to prints found on Zodiac letters and from the crime scene of the cab driver. No match.They also had DNA from the letter and stamps of some of the letters. No match.
Handwriting did not match either. Handwriting comparison is also very accurate. His palm print did not match a palm print on one of the confirmed Zodiac letters. 3 search warrants and not one thing found to connect him with Z's crimes.
One can have a truckload of circumstancial evidence against a suspect but it just takes one small thing to clear a suspect.
It doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't the killer just because samples from Allen's body and the Zodiac letters didn't match. There are all sorts of ways in which letters can be falsified - and if Allen was clever enough he certainly wouldn't have left ANY evidence of himself. It doesn't matter that DNA-science hadn't been developed at that point in time - a truly clever killer would have been ahead of his times. But Allen may well NOT have been the killer and shouldn't have been publicly accused
.. because that is bad and unconscionable behaviour by people who simply hadn't been clever enough to solve the case. Graysmith, Toschi etc. just wanted to make themselves look good and make money after they realized that, collectively, they had been failures as policemen, private investigators and reporters.
Graysmith's book 'Zodiac Unmasked' is a blatant attempt to make money : there's nothing conclusive in there. It's also written in a style which suggests total uncertainty in his own mind - which, however, didn't stop him from publishing it in order to make some money. But the worst thing about this case is that everyone involved in it was either incompetent or self-seeking or dishonest. It makes you wonder whether the theory that the killer was someone involved in the case isn't actually true ..
How did Allen falsify his DNA on the Stine letter when DNA wasn't known about in 1969? He would have to not only know about it, but how to manipulate it, and do it on more than one letter. Somehow he managed to get a consistent samples every time he "forged" the DNA? That's a bizarre theory buddy. Scientists today cannot even accomplish that feat with such stunning accuracy.
Then there are the prints and his handwriting: Conclusive non matches.
I don't follow your argument. If the killer and the letter-writer were two different people then the killer would not have need to 'forge' DNA at all - because it wouldn't have been his DNA. So the killer might still have been Allen and the letter-writer someone else. One thing's for certain : if the letter-writer was the killer then the killer was none of the suspects - unless, that is, he used someone else to send the letters. There are still all sorts of possibilities here ...
@nowayjose470 Some people dislike the taste of glue on envelopes and postage stamps. They moisten the paper with water instead. Where's the DNA in that?
We sure can. LE has cleared suspects on much less compelling evidence than what exists for Arthur Leigh Allen. Allen remains a suspect because of one man: Robert Graysmith, who has falsified research, invented numerous factoids about ALA that have been throughly discredited, and arrives at bizarre illogical conclusions. ZARAKHAST is SPOT ON with his assessment of Graysmith's research on the Zodiac.
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In all this game, the devil is losing and at the end will be accused of everything because GOD don’t want any rivals. Conclusion: live at the full in the freedom of GOD (praying in a right form, following the INSTRUCTIONS in the Bible - keeping the 10 commandments - including keeping the Saturday as the 7th day etc.) instead of in the incapacity and limited power of devil because he is just a temporary puppet. Jesus Christ is the savior and hope.
diptdipt 1 month ago
allen was the zodiac but he dies when mageu identified him
andunusblick 3 months ago
this iz zodiac speaking...
orionconflict2007 4 months ago
everyone needs to really pay attention and open their damn ear's. BY WHAT ALA FRIENDS ARE SAYING, ITS OBVIOUS HE WAS THE ZODIAC. FORENSIC SCIENTIST MUST HAVE MESSED UP DNA TEST, BECAUSE ITS ALA
jessetrend19 7 months ago
@jessetrend19 no, i do not agree with that, because i mean that DNA is the best evidence thing that can be used in such crime cases, and that it would never be just what a person is saying, because i mean that there is and will always be people that would claim that they knows something that others did not know at all, like they are more clever than those that did not know it. I also mean that it would be a very strange thing to do, if the zodiac atually said to a person things like that.
Neptun1971 5 months ago
4:40 i believed ALA scribbled also, you really think any killer is going to help out the police and really write for them...c'mon.
jessetrend19 7 months ago
They make it up while they go along.
cm5783 10 months ago
Of all seriousness. I've been looking into this and have been obsessed on and off, when time permits about the "whodunnit" thing, since 1988. When I read the first book by Graysmith. I personally believe that Rick Marshall had something to do with this as well as Leigh. I believe that there were more than one person involved in this. Maybe multiple persons. There isn't enough characters on here to xplain my thoughts. Anyone here involved in a serious forum, for casual discussion? Thanks, Shawn..
hydromorph1965 10 months ago
i'm one of the rare folks that thinks the Japs did it.
southcarolinarocks 1 year ago
@southcarolinarocks No, No,No! It was the Chinese! Think about it!!! lol!!!
hydromorph1965 10 months ago
Two things, for all you naysayers- the print on the cab is quite possibly NOT the killer's. it was a CAB. a public TRANSPORT. second, the letters were probably written with transparencies and/or overhead projector, eliminating the personal stamp read by a handwriting expert. Allen ALSO was known to have other people lick stamps and envelopes for him. Looks like a duck, smells like a duck, walks like a duck, its PROBABLY A DUCK.
mysterymachinist 1 year ago
What's with the "Sandy" guy? He acts like his brain is fried by drug abuse.
mark85la3000 1 year ago
@mark85la3000 yea, he seems pretty frigged up, doesn't he? I believe that I posted that to someone else.
hydromorph1965 10 months ago
I have a problem with a conniving criminal saying these near confessions to anybody
hairypolack 1 year ago
"I will make this very clear. My one reason I am killing. If I don't kill I am likely too abandon my chance to collect my slaves for the afterlife. Even when I know you can't find me I am not safe walking if I am collect my slaves. When slaves you found saved dead in a car. He changed his mind and road form me. He walked by without hiding from me. Nothing was safe. He was hiding a knife. You even listened too my slave was calling for help." 340 cipher
jlw4503 1 year ago 5
why wait so long to speak about the story..all these people full of shit, they just want the star light.
avonmacray2000 1 year ago 3
I don't think zodiac was a genius, but he surely wasn't as stupid as these guy in the video portray him. com on, who believes this crap?
gertomaniac 2 years ago
well , if he is not right handed and he tried to write with his right hand it would probably look like scribble.
Christopher711 2 years ago
Oh come on, if this guy told him that he was going to call himself the Zodiac and showed him places where he would commit crimes, why the feck didn't he go to the police, when the killers where happening. Sorry but it doesn't make any real sense.
namesnotimportant2u 2 years ago 14
@namesnotimportant2u
exactly!
theinkbrain 1 year ago
cheney needs to be dna tested and polygraphed imo.
jimpurdie 2 years ago
he was.Also he was frequently caught lying about allen. Now hes dead
smoku46 2 years ago
if he wasn't the zodiac -- and I'm not 110% sure he was -- he certainly thought he was. which really could be just as dangerous...
fb4unme 2 years ago 2
i wont buy that bs i beleive he wasnt the zodiac was a guinius that was very obviouse but i beleive he was a cover up... if not when they gave this man writing test he knew what was going on him being a genuis and just blew it off... i beleive he wasnt as sick as many beived he was.
mercenio1423 2 years ago
He took a polygraph test and passed it... later they took his DNA and compared it to the DNA on the envelope (you know how you lick it closed) and it wasn't a match. IDK, I think he did it... bastard. Oh well, he's dead now and probably disappointed to realize those people he killed aren't his "slaves in the afterlife." What a nutcase.
hipwizard 2 years ago 2
My Thoery is the reason they couldnt match Arthur Leigh Allen's writing to that of ZODIAC is because he hired someone to write the letters for him. Bottom Line How-ever Arthur Leigh Allen is the DAMN ZODIAC.
valiantbros 2 years ago
On A&E they said he never licked an envolpoe because on the glue he always got someone to do it for him.
Doppelganger399 2 years ago
@valiantbros I'm sorry, I know you posted this10 months ago, but, he hired someone to write the letters?? That makes no sense coz, don't you think the person he hired would wonder what he was talking about, in said letters? Also, the letters were published in the newspapers.
breetin 1 year ago
@breetin UM, NO!! Silence can be bought. Our own government takes bribes to keep quite about certain issues.
valiantbros 1 year ago
Arthur Leigh Allen was indeed the fucking ZODIAC. CASE CLOSED.
valiantbros 2 years ago
wheres your evidence? you must know somthing we dont know. everything they had on allen was sercom stancial. All the forensic evidence said it WASNT allen. It most likely wasnt him, and anyone smart wouldnt write any of those letters or pay someone to do it, That theory is rediculous.
blazed24sevn 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Richard Joseph Gaikowski is most likely the Zodiac Killer
ColeBihn 2 years ago
@ColeBihn Please tell us why and how you reached that conclusion.
RockDoctorLV 1 year ago
If Lee Chainy is so credible, why would he even carry on conversations with ALA about killings and fictitious killer names? If an acquaintance of mine started that conversation, I'd disassociate myself. If it was a roommate, I'd move out.
schuey999 2 years ago
@schuey999 cheney was always suspicious to me...possibly the letter writer?
aguyinaskimask82 2 years ago
I am curious if Cheney had some kind of personal grudge againts Arthur Leigh Allen and he made up the story about Allen making all those comments to him.
Christopher711 2 years ago
@Christopher711 certainly its possible,but haven't others verified Cheney's accounts?Supposedly when he said the majority of the "Id call myself Zodiac" stuff it was at a party.
aguyinaskimask82 2 years ago
I have no idea. Do you know?
Christopher711 2 years ago
@Christopher711 I do believe that I've read what I've previously stated,but do not remember where
aguyinaskimask82 2 years ago
@Christopher711 Yeah, Allen was a known pedophile, and supposedly molested one of Cheney's young relatives (can't remember who right now).
breetin 1 year ago
Look at all the internet detectives!
geoffwode1 2 years ago 5
"Arthur Lee Allen got tested for one hand in the writing comparison."
False.
He did get tested for both.
BlackmailTV 2 years ago
""Arthur Lee Allen got tested for one hand in the writing comparison."
False.
He did get tested for both. "
And the Zodiac was a cryptographer who created his own alphabets/codes. If Zodiac didn't disguise his handwriting, water isn't wet.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago 6
it for sure was ALA look he was smart enough to pull off this shit he was a college grad 2 times a teacher a junior chemist his Iq was above 130 put your ego aside and truely ask yourself what your Iq was propably lile 120 max do bullshitt yourself he was defiently intelligent enough to pull this off and the evidence is pretty amazing, if this case happened today he would but arrested and convicted for sure. Before you send my some bullshit about your Iq and my spelling hopefully you will think.
dav11677 3 years ago
Richard Joseph Gaikowski
BlackmailTV 3 years ago
Even though he spelt like a complete fucktard in all his letters???
BoBtheparrot7 2 years ago
Both my spelling and, likely my IQ, are superior to yours, but I completely agree that ALA was the Zodiac. All evidence points to him. The DNA test on the stamp was ludicrously assumed to be DNA of the Zodiac. The only discrepancy was the Stein murder, and that was done by someone else and Zodiac took credit for it.
ALA. wIthout a doubt.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
thing is, no REAL evidence points to allen. its all sercom stancial. Any smart person that knows the law, knows you can NOT convict someone on sercom stance.
blazed24sevn 2 years ago
if everyone wants to know who the real zodiac killer is; look at the unibomber!! the connections of both!!
MarCavalier23 3 years ago
That theory is very compelling at first blush but the more you think about it the more preposterous it sounds. Graysmith, for one, gives a good enough list of reasons why the Unabomber can't have been Zodiac.
zarakhast 3 years ago
While I wasn't convinced by the theory (unabomber was pretty much cleared as a suspect) I was very intrigued by Oswell's work on Zodiac's psychiatric profile. It's more freudian in nature but very informative. He shed a lot of new light on the mindset and pathology of Z and even worked to define terms like serial killer and mass murderer and differentiated them. BTW: He argued Z was more of a mass murderer.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
Wild speculation, explaining away solid physical evidence with theories doesn't help the case Zarakhast, it hurts it. Research is making a theory based on the facts. It is not about making facts based upon a theory. Allow yourself to be led by the facts.
It's not that I believe that two people being involved is inconceivable, it's just unsupported. In fact, that theory is often used to continue to implicate ALA even after physical evidence cleared him.
nowayjose470 3 years ago 10
Then there's also the possibility that the killer was capable of writing in different styles of handwriting at will - altering it to serve different purposes. If he'd studied this subject then he might have been able to do it. Also, what about the 'grey box' ? What was in that box ? Was it ever found ? And as for there having been no evidence in Allen's basement - would you, if you'd been the killer, have kept it there, knowing that the police suspected you ? Of course not !
zarakhast 3 years ago
It's possible that gremlins wrote the letter too. Once again, is there any EVIDENCE? ANY AT ALL?
nowayjose470 3 years ago
Oh a grey box! Damn I'm glad we don't live in a world where a man can be executed because he once had a grey box.
Well your letters are in the cyphers. Your smile masks psychotic rage.
BTW: What were the books? I asked you once but then again, you avoid every question that I ask. I've been asking for two weeks for even the slightest bit of evidence showing more than one killer and you avoid them.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
The grey box was mentioned in Graysmith's book. As far as I remember his sister-in-law was the one who mentioned it. Frankly, I hope that if ALA was innocent was innocent then his accusers rot in hell - because the world doesn't need nasty people such as his accusers were.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Graysmith is hardly to be trusted and you yourself have said that. He has misquoted several people and has quoted several dubious sources like Cheney and Spinelli.
Z may still be alive and at large. That's the real injustice.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
I totally agree with you about the dubiousness of Graysmith's book. It's good reading. But there are so many things in it which make you doubt, and it's hardly conclusive. To call it (the second book) 'Zodiac Unmasked' is going too far : the title was obviously meant just to help sell the book. What he says certainly doesn't prove anything. And the fact that they basically ruined his remaining days by persecuting him without evidence of his guilt makes them look bad in my book.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Yup. But you want to know the funny thing? It was the Yellow Book and "Bob Hall Starr" that got me interested in Z. Then irony hits with the amateur community which is largely responible for exposing Graysmith's own work. His own creation turned on him.
I became suspicious of the yellow book when Greysmith was building up a case against Marshall and then BOOM, forget Marshall, let's talk Allen.
BTW on Marshall, it appears he was finally cleared but I cannot confirm it.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
Didn't he (Marshall) die recently ? I heard he died in a rest home in Sept 2008.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Yes he did die recently in a nursing home. Tom Voigt, owner of the Zodiackiller website, said LE (not sure which department) cleared Marshall after they had a conversation with Marshall shortly before he died. However there has been was official statement or documentation and Mr. Voigt did not elaborate on why Marshall was cleared. He still lists Marshall as a current suspect on his site. I haven't been able to confirm that Marshall was officially cleared as a Z suspect.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
BTW: There was NO official statement or documentation accompanying Mr. Voigt's announcement. I'm a terrible typpist. Hey, Z was a bad speller tooo. 8^)
nowayjose470 3 years ago
So you were Z all along then ! (Only kidding). I've stumbled on a number of highly interesting Z-related discussions on Tom Voigt's site. There's some very good analytical thought on there and some very creative thought too. But I agree with you that it would help if when Voigt or someone else decides that someone is certainly innocent he would say why he has come to that conclusion. And yes, why is Marshall still up there as a major suspect if he's been cleared ?
zarakhast 3 years ago
Well I could see keeping Marshall up there just for historical purposes but if he was cleared, I'd like to know why. I've always thought Marshall was an intriguing suspect and one we knew little about. However if he was officially cleared, Voigt should make a note of that where Marshall is listed as a suspect. I see you have stumbbled onto my activitys on youtube. But I have been too smart and clever for you. You cannot catch me you will run all over after my fake clews and then tier out 8)
nowayjose470 3 years ago
This is not a court of law - it's just a stupid YouTube video. I've absolutely no interest in anyone ever being executed, btw, because I don't believe in the DP (another discussion). But the onus is not on me or anyone else, in a case which is unsolved, to 'prove' a theory. It's just a theory - no better and no worse than the theory that one person both wrote the letters and committed the murders. I could equally challenge you to prove that : and you wouldn't be able to do so.
zarakhast 3 years ago
It is your burden to prove a claim or to back up a theory you have made, both publicly. And you did make the claim that two people were involved. Welcome to the internet.
and no I don't believe you have any interest in seeing anyone executed. Obviously you are very interested in the Zodiac case and have researched it. I think you're on the wrong path. Keep looking though. If evidence can be found of more than one person then that would be incalcuably valuable.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
One of the Zodiac letters taunted police by saying 'I have been too clever for you'. Now it wouldn't have been 'too clever' of him to have written the letters himself, in his own handwriting and with his palm prints all over the place would it ? Give the Zodiac a bit more credit ! He WAS too clever for the authorities : they never caught him. You surely need to think a little less simplistically than to rule out Allen on the basis of non-matching handwriting and DNA samples.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Oh Zodiac said he was too clever. That's an astounding revelation! That's why Allen is guilty!
Leaving prints on the letters and at the crime scene is EXACTLY what Z did do. And they match.
So Z was a lying braggart. That isn't "evidence." He also said he wore cement fingertip guards. LIE!
LE has cleared suspects on LESS evidence that clears Allen (on PRINTS ALONE.) LE is so confident in them they have cleared 2500 suspects on the prints alone. PRINTS, DNA and handwriting.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
Oh: Let's add in 3 search warrants that turned up NOTHING establishing Allen as the Z. Let's add passing a 10 hour polygraph. Let's add incredible witnesses like Cheney and Spinelli. Even the circumstancial evidence against Allen, when looked at closely, falls apart.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
The searches were never likely to yield anything if the killer was clever enough to get rid of any substantial evidence in advance. And in the case of Allen they gave him adequate forewarning. I don't think you understand my position : I think it was an outrage to accuse ALA (PUBLICLY - and via the book. The worst thing was the televised news interview!) But it's still possible that it was him. They just shouldn't have made it public. Almost as bad as murder in my book.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Lying braggart or not, he has evaded detection ! No-one knows who he was.
I haven't examined them but if the palm-prints on the letters match then, yes, they will have been from the same person. But that doesn't mean that they were Zodiac's prints. I really don't see what problem there is with this idea. It may not be right but these prints don't match those of any other suspect and so - you must think they were made by someone else ....
zarakhast 3 years ago
Fingerprints on the letter and at the crime scene match. Those prints from the crime scene have been matched to other confirmed Z crime scenes. So yes, the prints came from Z. LE is so confident that the 38 prints they have are Zs they have cleared 2500 suspects on them.
The only problem I have with the two killer theory is NO EVIDENCE. From simple logic we can deduce at least one killer. But we need evidence to suggest two killers.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
All right then : taking your last two sentences I don't see logical agreement between them. I wasn't arguing, btw, for two killers. I was merely suggesting a collaboration between a letter-writer and a killer (for some bizarre reason, known only to them). Whether there is any evidence for this theory though would depend - just as would the theory of a single killer - on what really happened. That's something you can't 'assume' - especially in a case unsolved for 40 years !
zarakhast 3 years ago
Oh stop it zarak. There is no logical disagreement. Keep researching the case. Who knows what will be revealed tomorrow. Read that as encouraging a fellow Z researcher and me keeping an open mind.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
I'll always keep an open mind and will always be ready to admit that I'm wrong. I'm only new to this anyway but it fascinates me. Certainly no offence taken.
zarakhast 3 years ago
where did you get that information, that fingerprints on the letters match those at the crime scene?
anacondaebu 2 years ago
Now who's the moron, moron? Dipshit.
kinghorn917 3 years ago
He is not the Zodiac. He was their main suspect, he died in the early 90's from a heart attach and they compared his finger/palm print to prints found on Zodiac letters and from the crime scene of the cab driver. No match.They also had DNA from the letter and stamps of some of the letters. No match.
putaringonit0000 3 years ago
Handwriting did not match either. Handwriting comparison is also very accurate. His palm print did not match a palm print on one of the confirmed Zodiac letters. 3 search warrants and not one thing found to connect him with Z's crimes.
One can have a truckload of circumstancial evidence against a suspect but it just takes one small thing to clear a suspect.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
It doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't the killer just because samples from Allen's body and the Zodiac letters didn't match. There are all sorts of ways in which letters can be falsified - and if Allen was clever enough he certainly wouldn't have left ANY evidence of himself. It doesn't matter that DNA-science hadn't been developed at that point in time - a truly clever killer would have been ahead of his times. But Allen may well NOT have been the killer and shouldn't have been publicly accused
zarakhast 3 years ago
.. because that is bad and unconscionable behaviour by people who simply hadn't been clever enough to solve the case. Graysmith, Toschi etc. just wanted to make themselves look good and make money after they realized that, collectively, they had been failures as policemen, private investigators and reporters.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Graysmith's book 'Zodiac Unmasked' is a blatant attempt to make money : there's nothing conclusive in there. It's also written in a style which suggests total uncertainty in his own mind - which, however, didn't stop him from publishing it in order to make some money. But the worst thing about this case is that everyone involved in it was either incompetent or self-seeking or dishonest. It makes you wonder whether the theory that the killer was someone involved in the case isn't actually true ..
zarakhast 3 years ago
How did Allen falsify his DNA on the Stine letter when DNA wasn't known about in 1969? He would have to not only know about it, but how to manipulate it, and do it on more than one letter. Somehow he managed to get a consistent samples every time he "forged" the DNA? That's a bizarre theory buddy. Scientists today cannot even accomplish that feat with such stunning accuracy.
Then there are the prints and his handwriting: Conclusive non matches.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
I don't follow your argument. If the killer and the letter-writer were two different people then the killer would not have need to 'forge' DNA at all - because it wouldn't have been his DNA. So the killer might still have been Allen and the letter-writer someone else. One thing's for certain : if the letter-writer was the killer then the killer was none of the suspects - unless, that is, he used someone else to send the letters. There are still all sorts of possibilities here ...
zarakhast 3 years ago
@nowayjose470 Some people dislike the taste of glue on envelopes and postage stamps. They moisten the paper with water instead. Where's the DNA in that?
RockDoctorLV 1 year ago
you're a moron..
you can't say he's not the zodiac considering you have no idea. People like you annoy the piss out of me.
ROBlivion 3 years ago
We sure can. LE has cleared suspects on much less compelling evidence than what exists for Arthur Leigh Allen. Allen remains a suspect because of one man: Robert Graysmith, who has falsified research, invented numerous factoids about ALA that have been throughly discredited, and arrives at bizarre illogical conclusions. ZARAKHAST is SPOT ON with his assessment of Graysmith's research on the Zodiac.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
jew watch
ZzTheTruthzZ 3 years ago
huh?
GreenyMcFleetwood 3 years ago