Rand Paul is using scare tactics, and, quite frankly, it's embarrassing. I'm not a big fan of Sanders, but Rand Paul is an idiot. Rand's father could at least argue his point better.
Anyway, if Rand Paul wants to argue that forcing a hospital to provide emergency healthcare regardless of the ability to pay is somehow slavery, he can be my guest. He'd be laughed out of court. If you obtain the license to open a hospital (or any business), you have to play by the legal rules. If you don't want to be forced to help others, then don't open a hospital. There's no force involved, as nobody was forced to open a hospital.
Look how Rand Paul twist the whole thing into a extremist fear mongering position. Canada, UK and France have much better healthcare system than US. The Doctors there do not feel like slaves. They are happy to do their jobs.
The screwed up expression on Rand Paul's face towards the end spoke volumes about his disdain for human rights beyond simple property rights. Any philosophy whose notion of rights is anchored over whether or not you have a huge pile of assets laying around is a philosophy devoid of human decency and can have no substantive dog in the debate regarding human rights.
slavery, force, and we should be free to volunteer to be insured. LOL libertarians are idiots. when they get sick, they wither away in a lot of pain. nobody helps them, especially the evil state. I've seen it too many times on youtube of repub/libertarians getting sick. I always have mixed feelings, but they never change their ideology.
What is aggravating is the reason people do not understand Dr. Ron and Rand Paul is cause they do not understand the long term benefits we would get out of the way they want to change our Government and society back to the way it was meant to be. We do not understand the great results that come from true Liberty.
@hotroddy74 We do not understand true Liberty and what it brings cause we never had it. The way the system is designed now and what they are talking about here only keeps the rich rich and the poor poor. True Liberty opens prosperity for everyone. Having a free market and sound money drives prices down and benefits everyone.
@hotroddy74 Please take the time to google and learn about True Liberty and what it brings, it is sooo much more than just being able to do what you want. It would drive down the cost of medical care and insurance, this welfare state we live in drives up the prices of everything, it costs $5 to give the poor $1!
@hotroddy74 Actually, we do understand the 'great' results that come from the application of Dr. Paul's notion of 'true' liberty. We have plenty of examples of failure throughout the world in the last half of the Twentieth Century alone. New Zealand in the 1970s, the UK under Thatcher, Chile during the 1970s, South Africa in the early 1990s, and let's not forget the failed attempt at libertopia with the whole Republic of Minerva debacle. Take your pick!
@Activeassholeonpills No you don't. All you know is what you are told, you do not know why about all of that. What country do you live in? What was it that made our country great? What is it that is destroying our country? Learn true history you will see that the super powers do not like Liberty and why.
@Activeassholeonpills There is no such thing as free anything and we have a right to life not healthcare, it is a service that costs money, something the Government does not have they have to take it. If it wasn't for the Gov. getting involved and the Fed then the cost of healthcare would still be affordable. We the people can run this country better than they can, the free market and sound money would keep the cost down, bring jobs and more prosperity to fix these issues.
@Activeassholeonpills Ron Paul is absolutely right on everything, you all will find out the hard way and soooo wish you had listened. Giving free anything just drives prices up and takes jobs, it is common sense. Taxing the rich does the same thing, it helps no one but the rich in the long run and we are left with an economy like this, just getting worse.
@Activeassholeonpills "[F]reedom can be preserved only if it is treated as a supreme principle which must not be sacrificed for particular advantages."
@Activeassholeonpills I suppose corruption never happens behind the scenes to ensure the people do not prosper, and so the mega rich do. I suppose all this transfer of wealth was pure accident, the system that caused it is still great though, even though it will continue.
@hotroddy74 Instead of writing 15 fucking comments in response to my singular comment, send me a message. Stop turning this comments section into some kind of twisted soap box for your BS. A wall of text consisting of platitudes just makes you look like a fuckwit!
when I listen to morons like Rand and Ron Paul I sure am glad to live in Europe! universal healthcare is slavery? what planet is he on... newsflash: doctors do get paid in countries with universal healthcare...
This is such bullshit reasoning by Sanders. Of course they don't feel like slaves THEY ARE STILL GETTING PAID. It is the taxpayer that is being forced to pay them on someone else's behalf- THEY are the slaves.
He knows exactly what Paul is getting at, but as a typical politician distorts it as much as possible to suit his personal views.
What could Paul know about healthcare vs. his career politician counterpart. He's only been a doctor for 20 years and his father a doctor for 50.
Just because Ron and Rand are doctors doesn't make their view of how our healthcare system should be any more plausible than anybody else's. You don't need to know how to do brain surgery to have an opinion on who gets to have healthcare.
What if you CAN'T pay the bill (different than "DON'T pay the bill")? You know that we have welfare and Food Stamps to help out people, right? Is that slavery?
@Edgehead10075 I'm not sure you understand the point he's making.
Where does the money for welfare or food stamps come from?
You're forcing someone else to go to work and pay taxes to cover your medical expenses.
What if you can't afford to go to the grocery store and you just make your neighbor pay for it? What's the difference? Food, water and medical care are important, but that doesn't give you the right to force someone else to pay it.
1. I don't agree that it's slavery. Slavery is forced labor, not forced taxation.
2. As long as the slaves were being forced to labor, it's slavery.
3. The fifth amendment applies to the states via the fourteenth amendment, not by itself, as the Bill of Rights originally only applied to the federal government.
4. Your "just compensation" argument is very creative but wrong. Legally, taxes are distinct from takings. You don't have to be compensated for taxes.
Just think about it a second, dangercartxx. If people had to be compensated for taxes, we couldn't have taxes. Government would have to cease to exist. That violates common sense, which is why it's obvious that the founding fathers didn't mean taxes when the fifth amendment was written. Your view has already been argued in court and rejected.
Slavery is forced labor, which is illegal. Nobody is forced to labor in America, except for convicted felons in prison.
What you call "slavery," most would call "the common good."
I'm certainly against the abuses of welfare and other entitlements. If a person is able to work yet refuses to, I'm certainly against giving that person a handout. However, these programs have their place, and the government does have the right to tax people.
If people aren't forced to pay taxes that cover less fortunate people's expenses, including healthcare, many of those less fortunate people would die. Do we really want that? What's worse: having to pay some more in taxes or people dying for lack of healthcare?
Mitt Romney has said that everyone in America should be insured but that he doesn't agree with all of "Obamacare." That position is acceptable to me. I don't think that most Republicans share the ideology of Ron and Rand Paul.
The GOP thinks their GOP masters have a RIGHT to have their work done for free. Doctors are compensated, corporations are flat out NOT paying people for work.
Who is the slave here, Mr. Paul?
BTW, we LOVE Bernie Sanders....a TRUE Congressional warrior for the people!!!!
The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (wrongly called "Obamacare") has many aspects that most people tend to overlook. It changes MANY issues affecting our healthcare system today. Obviously, we can start with the fact that it says all people must have healthcare insurance. Second, it will DECREASE medical costs by getting rid of unnecessary tests and procedures. Unnecessary tests and procedures are RAMPANT.
I agree with you that everybody should have health insurance, but, honestly, I'm worried about rationing. I'd like for everyone to have healthcare with as little government intervention as possible.
This type of business needs to be changed and monitored so that less patients fall victim to it. The Act also changes the way documentation is done, making it a universal system that all healthcare workers can understand. There are MANY, MANY, MANY more components of this Act that will DECREASE medical costs and make it a fairer system for patients and a more understandable system overall. The changes I have mentioned here are only the beginning.
This goes to show just how out of touch conservatives really are and the hyperbole they will reach to while attempting to protect their business interests...
I'm more on the conservative side, but healthcare is a human right. It's a life or death issue. No one should be left to die for lack of money. The government should help out those who can't afford healthcare. Rand Paul really isn't that bright, and it's noticeable.
The problem with government is that it wastes money and is inefficient. People don't understand that before Medicare and Medicaid, healthcare was affordable. Medicare and Medicaid is what made healthcare expensive in the first place. So the solution isn't to have bigger government and continue the same policies that made Healthcare expensive in the first place. Same with Education and how Federal student loans are driving up the costs. More Government= bad.
And look where Medicare and Medicaid got us. Healthcare is even less affordable now. It's crazy how expensive it is.
Last time I checked, students are 1.1 Trillion dollars in federal student loan debt. That's what happens when the government guarantees loans to useless Liberal Arts degrees. That just proves how inefficient and wasteful the government is.If loans were handled by the private sector, there wouldn't be any waste.People would care more about who they're loaning to.
Are you saying that students who major in liberal arts shouldn't receive loans?
Okay, healthcare is less affordable, but there are people who need Medicare and Medicaid. Without Medicare, it would be hard for the elderly to have healthcare because most of them don't work.
I'm saying students shouldn't be guaranteed federal student loans. Think about it, if you had a business, would you carelessly give loans to English or Sociology majors who received C's and D's? Of course not, because that would be a bad investment. There's no way that person would be able to pay it back. That's what the government is doing right now, and that's why students are in such debt. This is also the reason why Education is getting so expensive now.
@Edgehead10075 Regarding healthcare, there's no way we can get rid of Medicare and Medicaid overnight, because people are so dependent on it. But what we should do is start phasing it out, by letting young people op out of it. These programs cause more harm than good, and are the primary reason why Healthcare is so unaffordable Same with the failure that is Social Security.
@Edgehead10075 Medicaid is for those who cannot afford insurance for their families or the out of pocket expenses that occur with Medicare. Not all poor qualify. That's why some hospitals offer Charity Care. Those on Medicare (Seniors or disabled) pay for their "Part B" coverage, deductibles & co-insurance.
Yes. Not all poor qualify for Medicaid, which is why we still have the problem of people without health insurance.
Some hospitals help out those who cannot afford insurance, but they're not required to do so. A person can be turned away from non-emergency healthcare. Everyone should just have health insurance. That would make things much simpler. Those without coverage wouldn't have to go searching for a charity.
Furthermore, insurance companies would then pay for all emergency healthcare, instead of the taxpayers footing the bill for those who can't afford it. Right now the taxpayers are paying for one of Ron Paul's campaign workers who died without having health insurance.
@Edgehead10075 It is absolutely not a right. You do not have the right to force anyone to do anything.
What gives you the right to demand a doctor do something that you can not pay for? You don't have an inherent right that requires a service from someone else without paying for it, because that infringes THEIR right as a free citizen.
If you are an EMT, do they have the right to force you to work without being paid? You don't understand what rights are.
The thing is, when you open a hospital (or any business) or attain a license to practice medicine or be an EMT, you're agreeing to serve the public. Therefore, it's not slavery for the law to require a doctor or EMT to do their job and help save lives. If you don't want to save lives, don't become a doctor or an EMT.
"What gives you the right to demand a doctor do something that you can not pay for?" Well, isn't that all the more reason to make sure everybody has health insurance? Then everybody is paid for.
Federal law says that emergency healthcare must be provided for everyone who needs it, regardless of the ability to pay. That is to make sure that people don't die needlessly. If a doctor doesn't want to provide emergency healthcare for that person, he/she shouldn't have become a doctor then.
Am I correct in assuming that you believe the Civil Rights Act is slavery because it requires businesses to not discriminate against people based on race (In other words, they MUST serve blacks.)?
Your views are interesting but definitely not mainstream. The average American has no problem with paying a small percentage of taxes that go to help those in need.
There is no such thing as a "right" to healthcare. In the American political tradition, rights are inherent, whereas healthcare requires someone willling to provide such services and a group of taxpayers legally compelled to foot the bill for the indigent. If you consider those things inherent, then your view of what is and isn't a right certainly has no foundation in American political thought. Just because something is desirable doesn't make it a right.
It doesn't matter if it's not a constitutional right. Everyone should have it. If you don't agree with that, what you're basically saying is that it's okay to let people die in the streets. You can't have it both ways; either you're saying one or the other. The taxpayers SHOULD be forced to pay for a poor person's healthcare in the twenty-first century.
The founding fathers didn't mention healthcare because it was the eighteenth century. They were backwards compared to today.
BTW, a service can be a right. Having a defense attorney in a criminal trial is a service being provided by the defense attorney, and it's also a constitutional right.
@masanf "There is no such thing as a "right" to healthcare. In the American political tradition, rights are inherent, "
That seems more like an argument made by Cicero than anyone else. The whole 'natural law' tripe is largely a bunch of bullshit made up by people who are already endowed with a silver spoon in their mouths.
@Edgehead10075 Really? I'm a liberal but I firmly believe nobody has a right someone else's services. Isn't communicating with a loved one a human right? If so, shouldn't I be able to walk in to FedEx and mail a card to my grandma for free? Isn't food a human right? If so, shouldn't the government pay for me to go to Olive Garden? Isn't education a human right? Shouldn't I get to go to any university for free?
If you can't afford healthcare, the government should pay for it. You mention education and food. K-12 education is free, and many people who can't afford food get Food Stamps.
Healthcare may not be a constitutional right, but everyone should have it. I can't think of a logical reason why someone should be denied healthcare. Can you?
You say that we don't have the right to someone else's services, but that's not true. No hospital can turn down anyone for emergency services for any reason. Do the doctors there feel like slaves? I don't think so.
@Edgehead10075 Nice job with the five posts bro. But, I'll respond to each one. Hospitals, out of the kindness of their hearts, open up their ERs to those who cannot pay. The majority of the time, the visits aren't even emergencies. Other times, you just have pill-seekers. It's a cluster*uck.
Wrong. Hospitals are forced by federal law to treat emergency patients whether or not they can pay. So much for your argument that there is no right to anybody else's services. If you're trying to argue that that's slavery, then you're an idiot. Don't want to be forced to provide healthcare? Then don't open up a hospital. Nobody forced anybody to open up a hospital, so there's no force involved. It's not slavery, so Rand Paul is a moron.
@Edgehead10075 Keyword here: "forced." When I become a physician, I will CHOOSE to treat some patients for a reduced fee, or no fee, and I will volunteer some of my free time in a clinic.
Even with universal healthcare, you won't lose that freedom. That is assured.
When people argue that healthcare is a "human right," I don't think any of them mean to say that it should be free. They just believe that the taxpayers should pay for it.
@Edgehead10075 You're arguing against my idea, which involves a change in the system, by providing an example of what currently goes on. You are an idiot. Do I have a right to free dental care? To free housing? To free engineering?
I didn't know that you had an idea. I thought you were just saying that there's no right to anybody else's services, as if that was currently a fact.
There's no constitutional right to any of the things you mentioned, but society has programs to help poor people who can't afford those things. Apparently you would just let those people be homeless and not have dental/medical care. How "liberal" of you!
@Edgehead10075 Again, thank you for proving my point. There is "no constitutional right" as you yourself said for many things, including healthcare. I actually AM in favor of the government helping people pay for healthcare. This is what is done with Section 8 housing choice vouchers and food stamps. Of course, this is a form of socialism (and I'm okay with that). Just don't say you exist, therefore you should be able to waltz into a hospital and receive care.
I'm thinking that we don't disagree as much as you previously believed. However, you can "waltz" into a hospital and receive care if you're an emergency patient. That's a life-and-death situation, which is why that federal law is in place.
Interestingly enough, if everyone is insured, which Rand Paul opposes, we wouldn't have the problem of people not being able to pay for emergency healthcare.
When a person becomes a doctor, he agrees to serve the people, just like someone who opens up a restaurant agrees to serve the public. Is it slavery to say that a restaurant can't refuse to serve a person because of his or her color? I don't think so. When you get a license to have a business or be a doctor, you agree to play by the rules. If you don't like that, then don't become a doctor or open a business.
I wasn't trying to be obnoxious, but I needed five posts to say everything that I wanted to say. No need to resort to insults, asshole. You honestly don't sound like a liberal, even though you claim to be one.
I'm pretty sure that a doctor has to obey civil rights laws. He can't refuse to treat a patient because the patient is black, so you're at least partially wrong. A doctor can't just say, "I'm not going to treat him because I'm not a slave and nobody has the right to my services." The doctor would need a legitimate reason.
If an emergency room doctor refuses to provide emergency care for a patient, he should lose his license and be arrested.
You said that there's no right to anyone else's services. Why should it matter whether you can pay or not, according to that logic? So if you can pay, you have a right to services? Well then what's your problem with universal healthcare? Everybody would be able to pay, as everybody would be insured. You're very confusing.
@Edgehead10075 I want people to pay for the services they receive. I pay to mail packages. I pay to have my teeth cleaned. I pay to get physicals. I pay for food. I pay for beer. I pay for a sit-down dinner. I pay for prescription drugs. Again, if the government wants to offer a low-level insurance plan for the insured, that would be fine. Low-income persons would buy into the plan, and that money would pay nurses, doctors, lab techs, office managers, etc.
Nobody is saying that you shouldn't be paid for your services. The debate is about who should pay for it. Should the government pay some of the costs for lower-income people?
@Edgehead10075 The government is in no way obligated to pay for any costs for anyone. In a compassionate society, however, and especially in year 2012, that's something to consider. I think we can agree that socialized health care = bad, increased access to healthcare = good, government helping poor people pay for healthcare = good.
One last thing. I'd say that healthcare, being about life and death, is more important than communicating with a loved one and even education. If you go to college, it can be reasonably expected that you pick up part of the tab. Getting a job can help pay for it. Food is very important. However, a person who is able-bodied can be expected to get a job to help pay for food. Healthcare is different. If you get sick, it's imperative that you have health insurance.
As a society, we can't just let people die, and we can't tell someone who gets sick to "get a job." That's why the government should help pay for poor people's health insurance.
BTW, read the Constitution. It says that, if you're a criminal defendant, you have the RIGHT to a defense attorney. That's an example of having the right to someone else's services, so this isn't an entirely new idea.
I side with Senator Paul on this issue, but I'm really just posting so that the first 50 comments people read aren't the disgusting nonsense that went on 4 days ago. If anyone feels like debating me in a civil manner, I'd be more than happy, especially if it moves the pointless filth below off the first page.
@deeppurple28 The only person doing the misleading here is Sanders. Bernie Sanders is a far-left Marxist Bolshevik Jew nutjob. Words cannot describe the contempt I have for this detestable piece of garbage. He's everything this country should flush down the toilet.
@432ps1 NOPE, WRONG! That imbecile Rand Paul is trying to scare gullible people like yourself! Slavery? LOL There are no slaves in Government health care Rand YOU MORON! Is Randy the retard suggesting that VA Employees are slaves? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
@deeppurple28 This is NOT France, you thick, jew loving pinko twat. When are assholes going to figure this out: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "FREE" HEALTHCARE! I want the fucking government OUT of my Dr's office. OUT of my light socket. OUT of my gas tank. OUT of my toilet, AND OUT OF MY LIFE!
@432ps1 What the fuck are you talking about you cock muncher!? I'm a jew now according to you? LOL! So this is how the average Rand Paul idiot voter reacts? YOU ARE FUCKING PATHETIC you CUNT! Like I said before, Randy here is trying to scare of retards like you you cumm drinking faggot! Slaves, yeah right BITCH! There are no slaves in Health care, now pull your head out of that loose crusty crevice you call your anus BITCH! FUCK YOU CUNT!
@deeppurple28 Nice try you thick cunt. Now go and suck the maggots out of your mothers ass you filthy autofellating felching French faggot. You're everything this country needs to flush down the toilet you wormy little twat.
@432ps1 You truly are the load that whore you once called mommy should have swallowed, listen you fucking product of incest, why don't you do us all a favor and go sit on a rusty nail and twist you fucking cumm drinking cock muncher! SIT ON IT AND Let your ass hole slowly Rust you gullible CUNT!
@432ps1 LOL Is that all you got you cumm drinking whore? Now stfu and go lick Rand Paul's crusty and hairy asshole you fucking redneck BITCH! Sit on a rusty screw driver while you suck Rand Paul's shitty ass hole you cumm drinking faggot!
Rand Paul himself (and his father) is enjoying govt. funded free healthcare, now he is against healthcare for others? No wonder someone call Libertarians "socialism for themselves, capitalism for others"
@SleepingSun1985 Ron Paul doesn't take part in the congressional health care plan, nor does he take a government pension. Check your facts before you spout off nonsense.
For anyone who is against laissez faire please answer the following questions: 1. How do you determine the most beneficial way to allocate resources? 2. How do you find the monetary value of any and all goods and services? These questions are known as the Calculation Problem. The Austrian School of Economics has answers for these questions. For those of you who disagree with laissez faire, what then are your answers?
@irishgodfatherchris If a good or service has no monetary value how is it provided? If a good or service has no monetary value than how do you give payment for the work, time and effort that was needed to create, provide and distribute that good or service? Please name a good or service with no monetary value and how it is provided.
@FreedomFighter1131 none and thats the problem not everything should be measured in the level of profit that it makes take the public system for example its sole purpose is the serve the people, money means nothing to the public system (well it shouldn't mean anything the public system). All we've done regarding currency over time is refined the barter system. Finally can you kindly answer my question regarding Rothbard
@irishgodfatherchris The reason governments all over the world are in debt is because money means nothing to them. The reason people are losing the ability to make choices concerning how to run their lives and the reason governments are waging wars which have killed a quarter of a billion people in the last 100 years proves they don't care about serving the people. So if it's not about money or serving the people what is it about? (and yes I like Rothbard) answer my 2 questions from my last post
@FreedomFighter1131 Healthcare under the public system (NHS, Medicare - Australian version etc.) has no monetary value its simply a service that is provided free of charge (taxes notwithstanding of course) also instead of paying someone a piece of plastic (in my country's case) how about paying them something that the person can physically use (some countries use this type of system normally with cows or in some cases camels) because its clear that the current system in broken
@irishgodfatherchris If there is no monetary value than how is it determined how much compensation a doctor should receive for using his abilities? A barter system would be moral only if both parties agreed on what was being given in the exchange. If a person wanted a camel for their services and the other wanted to give a camel that would be perfectly moral. How do you determine what a person's services are worth unless you let individuals choose voluntarily on a case by case basis?
@FreedomFighter1131 again you go back the "moral" thing again which is just pathetic on your part you can do better especially seeing as how morality is subjective and I can't stress this enough not everything is about making money. Just out of curiosity have you read Rothbard's teachings with regards to women and children
@irishgodfatherchris yea I'm not crazy about everything he said. I'm pro-life for example. I think he was probably looking at children from an evolutionist (humans are animals) perspective and I am not an evolutionist but I do love his economics. As far as things not being about making money, if there is no monetary value how do u determine how much compensation a doctor should receive for his services? Should a doctor get nothing and starve? How do u determine what a persons services are worth
@FreedomFighter1131 he looked at women and children as property and in fact wrote about the idea of selling children on the free market. Also he said in his writings that parents should not be forced to look after their own child/children even if that resulted in the death of aforementioned child/children. Finally I don't determine worth personal or otherwise because much like morality its subjective, how do YOU decide how much a person's services are worth.
@irishgodfatherchris The only way that you can determine the true value of any good or service is by looking at the compromise of the lowest someone is willing to take for that good or service vs the highest someone is willing to pay. This is the only way to know how best to allocate recourses and the only way to know how much compensation someone should receive.
@FreedomFighter1131 how do you know that is the best way for the allocation of resources this is merely your opinion its completely subjective I'm not saying that Socialism is perfect but in my opinion it easily outdoes Anarcho-Capitalism any day of the week. I'll say this for the final time then I'll call it a draw so to speak because its clear neither of us are willing to budge from our respective positions not everything is supposed to be about making money it should be about advancing humans
@irishgodfatherchris Yea it has been really fun debating you. Thanks for staying with it so long. When people like us debate, its really not about persuading the other since we both know neither of us will concede, its about persuading our readers. I agree we need to advance humanity and I wish the politicians (like the ones in this video) had the kind of in depth discussion you and I just had. Thanks again
Oh wow. A sound intellectual reasoning about the philosophical implications of a "right" to something someone else produces is met with such a childish response. Wow. I sure hope no one ever votes for this "Sanders" again. Ridiculous.
Rand Paul you live in a fantasy world buddy..... Every other industrialized nation has universal health care and there not abducting doctors or being enslaved.... Dude your truly and idiot...
Considering the rules/guidelines I'm surprised that all these hateful comments toward Senator Paul are being allowed to remain on the comment board. Anyway, please, I just have a few honest questions I would like to ask. 1. Would it be okay to use violence or the threat of violence against a doctor if he refused to help someone in order to make him help? 2. If a doctor has a right to be paid for his services is it a good thing to force others to help you pay that doctor? Please answer & respond.
@FreedomFighter1131 under UHC doctors still get paid you know my local doctor gets at least 250 grand a year and thats just a conservative estimate, the fact of the matter is no one forces the doctor to treat you, as it is under the Hippocratic Oath they are compelled to look after you anyway also and this is the single most important point under UHC no one dies because they cannot afford medical treatment, only in the US does this happen.
@irishgodfatherchris I understand that doctors get paid a lot, I understand that insurance companies make things more expensive for everyone and get in the way and gives high incentives for making health care far more expensive than it needs to be. I also understand what the Hippocratic Oath says. But none of that answers my 2 questions. Is it be okay to use the threat of violence against a doctor if he refused to help someone? & is it a good thing to force others to help you pay a doctor?
@irishgodfatherchris That comment about people not dying because they can't afford it makes no sense to me. If someone dies because they couldn't afford it, that means the doctor chose not treat them because they could not afford it, and yet you said the Hippocratic Oath compels them to help people either way. This is a contradiction. Under UHC people are forced under threat of fine and jail to pay into a collective pool used to pay for everyone. Threatening someone for not helping others is bad
@FreedomFighter1131 with regards to the Hippocratic Oath, yes it is a contradiction so why are 40,000 US citizens still dying every year because they cannot afford treatment that is dare I say it hypocritical, under everyone pays into the system with their taxes which by the way is cheaper than the private system with their premiums and whatnot
@irishgodfatherchris lol, sure its cheaper for some, because they avoid having to pay their bill and only pay the tax. But for those that r healthy and don't go to the doctor its more expensive. the real problem is the justice and moral problem. Is it right to make some people pay for others?
@FreedomFighter1131 under UHC they don't get a bill, that's why you pay for it with taxes. Furthermore I find it rich that you are defending a grossly defective system in which people die because they cannot afford treatment and yet you have the bare-faced cheek to try to lecture me on morality
@irishgodfatherchris I don't defend the current system. Also whether or not i have "bare-faced cheek" does not change the fact that what your advocating is immoral. Yes I can bring up morality because, it is immoral. I'm stating the reality of the situation. It is not right to make people pay for others using threats. Under UHC those that don't go to the doctors must pay a tax so that other people can get health care. That is unjust.
@FreedomFighter1131 EVERYONE pays into the system how is that unjust, you know what is unjust an immoral the fact that in the US people are denied treatment because they cannot afford it, in the rest of the civilised world that does not happen and if you aren't willing to essentially take a hit to your salary (not a lot but you will know its been taken out normally its about 1.5% of your pay cheque) then not only do have no empathy but you are completely immoral and just plain greedy.
@irishgodfatherchris How do you make someone pay into a system if they don't want to? You have to threaten non-compliers with punishment. You need to throw non-compliers in jail right? Forcing people to pay into a system against their will is immoral. I don't care if some people are greedy, they should be left the choice. Taking their choice is immoral. Make your system voluntary and I won't be against it. As long as people are punished for not complying I will oppose it.
@FreedomFighter1131 if its voluntary then the public system cannot survive, its a simple as that. Its an all or nothing situation, why should people be given the choice the reason why the Congress was elected (initially) was to make laws for everyone (not just a few) so by having a UHC system in which everyone pays into it actually makes healthcare more affordable.
@irishgodfatherchris if the system can't survive so be it, but its immoral to force people to pay into a system against their will. The reason congress was created was to protect peoples freedom. If your worried about affordable healthcare there is another way. Different from UHC and the current system. It would only take a few easy steps
@irishgodfatherchris 1 tax reform 2 individual medical savings accounts 3 replace FDA with private certification 4 privatize medicare and medicaid and 5 give a tax credit to doctors who get negative outcome insurance. Those 5 steps whould reduce health care costs by an austonomical amount. Then everyone could afford good healthcare.
@FreedomFighter1131 privatising the system is a terrible idea unless they are all bound by very strict regulations as is done in the Netherlands if not all you will do is exacerbate the problem because you'll end up with an oligopoly.
@irishgodfatherchris no, please do a little more research on those 5 points. You're wrong, I know what I'm talking about. Regulation hurts an economy. You don't need regulations, you just need people to be able to make choices. In economics the true and actual price and value of a good or service can only be determined by a real choice by producers and consumers. Regulations artificially change prices giving false signals in the market. If you do those 5 things health care costs will plummet
@FreedomFighter1131 you're wrong regarding the economy take my country for example (Australia) we have a heavily regulated economy and no recession, we also have low debt, low unemployment and a deficit that is manageable, also we have UHC and a longer lifespan, you know which country the Mises In. said was a functioning Libertarian country, it was Somalia of all places and isn't that a great place to live.
@irishgodfatherchris I have a deep respect for Australia (mostly because of Steve Irwin) but also because Australia doesn't meddle in other nations affairs they don't go to war. War is a huge part of our debt in America. However regulation is the antithesis of choice and in order to enforce it you need to use coercion. I don't understand how coercion on non-violent people can be moral. Honestly though cheap health care comes from doctors and patients interacting without any 3rd party intrusion.
@FreedomFighter1131 in Australia we still have choice even under UHC we can choose whichever we to treat us (providing their present at the clinic) and we can also get treatment at the local hospital without the prospect of a massive bill arriving in the mail when we get home, of course there is a private system here but it works with the public system rather than against it which means if you have private insurance you can skip waiting lists on elective surgery even in public hospitals.
@irishgodfatherchris Are you forced to have health insurance even if you don't want it? As long as people can choose private insurance or no insurance than I really don't care if the government wants to compete with private companies. As long as you can choose to not pay into the system if you don't want to use the system than I have no qualms about it. It's a matter of choice. I want the choice to pay my doctor directly without 3rd party involvement.
@FreedomFighter1131 we have healthcare insurance from they day we are born to the day we die, also why do you want to pay your doctor directly when paying via taxes in the long run is cheaper and it makes the system operate more efficiently
@irishgodfatherchris because when I ask a doctor to use his abilities on my behalf I expect that he and I will agree to terms and payment acceptable to us both before he helps me. The principle is that I want the choice. I just want to be able to have the choice to pay the doctor directly if I want to. Why is it so wrong that I should have that choice? I don't understand why being forcibly prevented from having that choice is a moral or just position. Why is having that choice so bad??
@FreedomFighter1131 its not about choice, its about humanity as a whole, you wanting to just cover your own arse so to speak is not only greedy it just shows that have no empathy, we aren't going progress as a society unless we all work together, humanity has never operated as individuals and been successful we have always operated as collective its why we have settlements (cities, towns, villages etc.) also its how we even operate within our own family you operate as one single group.
@irishgodfatherchris So you want me to give up my individualism and my ability to make a choice about my own life? I don't understand how someone can so carelessly throw away the greatness of their own existence. You exist autonomously, you are a valuable human being with a life and will all your own. Why would you give that up to some collective to be indistinguishable from anyone else. You and you alone own your life, it belongs to you not the collective, please understand.
@FreedomFighter1131 you're right I am an individual but as a society we have to work together. United we stand, divided we fall, that is true for any society from the most basic to the most complex and if it requires that we be made to pay taxes (only 1.5% of your fortnightly pay cheque), in order to maintain the society so be it.
@irishgodfatherchris I proposed a solution. A 5 point solution, one that uses logically consistent economic theory and stringent principles based on justice and morality. I can not support forcing people to pay into a system they might not even end up using and throwing them in jail for not complying. It's not humane. You propose threatening people with jail in order to force them to pay for their system. You want all non-compliers in cages. It is immoral.
@FreedomFighter1131 you have just put an entire paragraph in my mouth none of which I wrote, you are forced to go to school why shouldn't you be forced through taxes so its deducted from your pay so its not possible to not pay into the system it is just not possible, take here fro example you cannot avoid unless you belong to the super-low income strata to not pay into the system its not possible, how can you be sent to prison for not paying when its not possible for you to avoid paying.
@irishgodfatherchris I go to private school I should not have to pay into the public school system, it should be my choice which school I use, then I pay for the one I use. Same for healthcare, you should pay for what you use. if you want to pay for yourself and not use UHC then u should not pay for UHC. However if I apply that I go to jail, throwing me in a cage for NOT paying for something I didn't use is immoral. And making me use a particular system over another against my will is immoral.
@FreedomFighter1131 oh of course does that mean you should have private fire brigades (and that has a proud history of praying on the disadvantaged) private everything for that matter, as someone who has done economics granted my view is quite a bit different and if anything a bit world-weary than that of my lecturer (who's only 22 by the way) I can see that perfect competition is a fantasy and that a solely private system results in an oligopoly (I presume you know what that is)
@irishgodfatherchris@irishgodfatherchris a truly lassiez faire market wont create an oligopoly because of the point which your branch of economics always seems to ignore which is the Calculation Problem which states that the true price of any good or service can only be determined through voluntary interaction. So without a true Market Price it is impossible for people to see the most benificial economic decision at any given time.
@irishgodfatherchris you can call it a fantasy, but what about the actual argument? How do you solve the Calculation Problem? Your branch of economics has no answer. You claim it is a fantasy and it creates an oligopoly but those are just empty words. Go ahead and defend your claims.
@irishgodfatherchris Also one more thing about Oligopolies. In a true laissez faire economy, oligopolies are short lived and are not harmful in the way they are under corporatism. The so called crony capitalism is corporatism (That's the official name) In which all corporations are in bed with the government. In America we have corporatism right now, we also have government taking bribes as being the norm of how business is done in politics. I recommend changing the system to no corporatism.
Rand Paul is using scare tactics, and, quite frankly, it's embarrassing. I'm not a big fan of Sanders, but Rand Paul is an idiot. Rand's father could at least argue his point better.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
Anyway, if Rand Paul wants to argue that forcing a hospital to provide emergency healthcare regardless of the ability to pay is somehow slavery, he can be my guest. He'd be laughed out of court. If you obtain the license to open a hospital (or any business), you have to play by the legal rules. If you don't want to be forced to help others, then don't open a hospital. There's no force involved, as nobody was forced to open a hospital.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
Look how Rand Paul twist the whole thing into a extremist fear mongering position. Canada, UK and France have much better healthcare system than US. The Doctors there do not feel like slaves. They are happy to do their jobs.
kkbose 2 weeks ago 7
The screwed up expression on Rand Paul's face towards the end spoke volumes about his disdain for human rights beyond simple property rights. Any philosophy whose notion of rights is anchored over whether or not you have a huge pile of assets laying around is a philosophy devoid of human decency and can have no substantive dog in the debate regarding human rights.
Activeassholeonpills 2 weeks ago 2
instead of watching rand paul i was watching the woman behind him give the bitch face
ODOnPCP 3 weeks ago
Rand and Ron Paul are an embarrassment to America.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
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masanf 3 weeks ago
LOL, Even Rand can't keep a straight face!
soulfader 3 weeks ago
@soulfader He probably thinks he's being clever by talking about slavery. Right-wingers think slavery is a funny topic.
FoxGroundsman 3 weeks ago
slavery, force, and we should be free to volunteer to be insured. LOL libertarians are idiots. when they get sick, they wither away in a lot of pain. nobody helps them, especially the evil state. I've seen it too many times on youtube of repub/libertarians getting sick. I always have mixed feelings, but they never change their ideology.
LouieDaProtectionist 3 weeks ago
What is aggravating is the reason people do not understand Dr. Ron and Rand Paul is cause they do not understand the long term benefits we would get out of the way they want to change our Government and society back to the way it was meant to be. We do not understand the great results that come from true Liberty.
hotroddy74 3 weeks ago
@hotroddy74 We do not understand true Liberty and what it brings cause we never had it. The way the system is designed now and what they are talking about here only keeps the rich rich and the poor poor. True Liberty opens prosperity for everyone. Having a free market and sound money drives prices down and benefits everyone.
hotroddy74 3 weeks ago
@hotroddy74 Please take the time to google and learn about True Liberty and what it brings, it is sooo much more than just being able to do what you want. It would drive down the cost of medical care and insurance, this welfare state we live in drives up the prices of everything, it costs $5 to give the poor $1!
hotroddy74 3 weeks ago
@hotroddy74 Actually, we do understand the 'great' results that come from the application of Dr. Paul's notion of 'true' liberty. We have plenty of examples of failure throughout the world in the last half of the Twentieth Century alone. New Zealand in the 1970s, the UK under Thatcher, Chile during the 1970s, South Africa in the early 1990s, and let's not forget the failed attempt at libertopia with the whole Republic of Minerva debacle. Take your pick!
Activeassholeonpills 2 weeks ago
@Activeassholeonpills No you don't. All you know is what you are told, you do not know why about all of that. What country do you live in? What was it that made our country great? What is it that is destroying our country? Learn true history you will see that the super powers do not like Liberty and why.
hotroddy74 2 weeks ago
@Activeassholeonpills There is no such thing as free anything and we have a right to life not healthcare, it is a service that costs money, something the Government does not have they have to take it. If it wasn't for the Gov. getting involved and the Fed then the cost of healthcare would still be affordable. We the people can run this country better than they can, the free market and sound money would keep the cost down, bring jobs and more prosperity to fix these issues.
hotroddy74 2 weeks ago
@Activeassholeonpills Ron Paul is absolutely right on everything, you all will find out the hard way and soooo wish you had listened. Giving free anything just drives prices up and takes jobs, it is common sense. Taxing the rich does the same thing, it helps no one but the rich in the long run and we are left with an economy like this, just getting worse.
hotroddy74 2 weeks ago
@Activeassholeonpills "[F]reedom can be preserved only if it is treated as a supreme principle which must not be sacrificed for particular advantages."
hotroddy74 2 weeks ago
@Activeassholeonpills I suppose corruption never happens behind the scenes to ensure the people do not prosper, and so the mega rich do. I suppose all this transfer of wealth was pure accident, the system that caused it is still great though, even though it will continue.
hotroddy74 2 weeks ago
@hotroddy74 Instead of writing 15 fucking comments in response to my singular comment, send me a message. Stop turning this comments section into some kind of twisted soap box for your BS. A wall of text consisting of platitudes just makes you look like a fuckwit!
Activeassholeonpills 2 weeks ago
@Activeassholeonpills why would he write a message to 1 person when he can write here and have hundreds of people see it
GrandWizad 4 days ago
when I listen to morons like Rand and Ron Paul I sure am glad to live in Europe! universal healthcare is slavery? what planet is he on... newsflash: doctors do get paid in countries with universal healthcare...
Kattamedia 3 weeks ago
Ron and Rand don't represent most conservatives on this issue. They're the only ones I hear talking about this being slavery.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
This is such bullshit reasoning by Sanders. Of course they don't feel like slaves THEY ARE STILL GETTING PAID. It is the taxpayer that is being forced to pay them on someone else's behalf- THEY are the slaves.
He knows exactly what Paul is getting at, but as a typical politician distorts it as much as possible to suit his personal views.
What could Paul know about healthcare vs. his career politician counterpart. He's only been a doctor for 20 years and his father a doctor for 50.
dangercartxx 3 weeks ago
Just because Ron and Rand are doctors doesn't make their view of how our healthcare system should be any more plausible than anybody else's. You don't need to know how to do brain surgery to have an opinion on who gets to have healthcare.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
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Kattamedia 3 weeks ago
What if you CAN'T pay the bill (different than "DON'T pay the bill")? You know that we have welfare and Food Stamps to help out people, right? Is that slavery?
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
@Edgehead10075 I'm not sure you understand the point he's making.
Where does the money for welfare or food stamps come from?
You're forcing someone else to go to work and pay taxes to cover your medical expenses.
What if you can't afford to go to the grocery store and you just make your neighbor pay for it? What's the difference? Food, water and medical care are important, but that doesn't give you the right to force someone else to pay it.
That is literally slavery.
dangercartxx 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
@Edgehead10075 Okay, we're making progress here. Yes, forcing someone else to pay for your healthcare, even through taxes, is slavery.
That's like saying slavery in the 1800's would have been okay as long as it was the government taxing them at 100% instead of the slave owners.
State or Federal Gov. does not have that right.
5th Amend:"nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
Your money is your property, hence it's theft being illegal.
dangercartxx 3 weeks ago
1. I don't agree that it's slavery. Slavery is forced labor, not forced taxation.
2. As long as the slaves were being forced to labor, it's slavery.
3. The fifth amendment applies to the states via the fourteenth amendment, not by itself, as the Bill of Rights originally only applied to the federal government.
4. Your "just compensation" argument is very creative but wrong. Legally, taxes are distinct from takings. You don't have to be compensated for taxes.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
Just think about it a second, dangercartxx. If people had to be compensated for taxes, we couldn't have taxes. Government would have to cease to exist. That violates common sense, which is why it's obvious that the founding fathers didn't mean taxes when the fifth amendment was written. Your view has already been argued in court and rejected.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
Slavery is forced labor, which is illegal. Nobody is forced to labor in America, except for convicted felons in prison.
What you call "slavery," most would call "the common good."
I'm certainly against the abuses of welfare and other entitlements. If a person is able to work yet refuses to, I'm certainly against giving that person a handout. However, these programs have their place, and the government does have the right to tax people.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
If people aren't forced to pay taxes that cover less fortunate people's expenses, including healthcare, many of those less fortunate people would die. Do we really want that? What's worse: having to pay some more in taxes or people dying for lack of healthcare?
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
Mitt Romney has said that everyone in America should be insured but that he doesn't agree with all of "Obamacare." That position is acceptable to me. I don't think that most Republicans share the ideology of Ron and Rand Paul.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
And this is why Canada is a better place to live :)
SolidNintendo 3 weeks ago
Actually America is a great place to live if you have healthcare.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
The GOP thinks their GOP masters have a RIGHT to have their work done for free. Doctors are compensated, corporations are flat out NOT paying people for work.
Who is the slave here, Mr. Paul?
BTW, we LOVE Bernie Sanders....a TRUE Congressional warrior for the people!!!!
artisanrox 3 weeks ago
According to Senator Paul, if we have a right to safety then soldiers, the police and firemen are slaves.
longing4thailand 3 weeks ago 3
And progressives want to put this Paul brand of crazy in the White House.
KingKaio 3 weeks ago
Huh? Progressives are against Rand Paul. Rand Paul is a right wing extremist. You're confused.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
Some Progressives have told me this guy and his father are true libertarians and that I should switch parties to vote for these greedy bastards.
KingKaio 3 weeks ago
Well, Ron Paul is a true libertarian, but true libertarians are anything but progressive. They believe in laissez-faire capitalism.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
Remember, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree
superusermode 3 weeks ago
paul is a pansy with a perm!
PlythonJ 3 weeks ago
The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (wrongly called "Obamacare") has many aspects that most people tend to overlook. It changes MANY issues affecting our healthcare system today. Obviously, we can start with the fact that it says all people must have healthcare insurance. Second, it will DECREASE medical costs by getting rid of unnecessary tests and procedures. Unnecessary tests and procedures are RAMPANT.
ACornett555 3 weeks ago
The healthcare mandate is probably unconstitutional, though. Mandates must be done at the state level.
Can you give an example of an "unnecessary" test or procedure?
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
I agree with you that everybody should have health insurance, but, honestly, I'm worried about rationing. I'd like for everyone to have healthcare with as little government intervention as possible.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
This type of business needs to be changed and monitored so that less patients fall victim to it. The Act also changes the way documentation is done, making it a universal system that all healthcare workers can understand. There are MANY, MANY, MANY more components of this Act that will DECREASE medical costs and make it a fairer system for patients and a more understandable system overall. The changes I have mentioned here are only the beginning.
ACornett555 3 weeks ago
Wow, Rand Paul is even crazier than his Dad!
TheDecoratingDivas 3 weeks ago
This goes to show just how out of touch conservatives really are and the hyperbole they will reach to while attempting to protect their business interests...
Talondas 3 weeks ago
Sorry, but I would rather live in a world with people like Bernie that actually give a shit about people. I find Mr. Paul to be a complete asshole
justjulie37 3 weeks ago
He played the old i get the last word offense .
drbrucel 4 weeks ago
I'm more on the conservative side, but healthcare is a human right. It's a life or death issue. No one should be left to die for lack of money. The government should help out those who can't afford healthcare. Rand Paul really isn't that bright, and it's noticeable.
Edgehead10075 4 weeks ago 21
@Edgehead10075
The problem with government is that it wastes money and is inefficient. People don't understand that before Medicare and Medicaid, healthcare was affordable. Medicare and Medicaid is what made healthcare expensive in the first place. So the solution isn't to have bigger government and continue the same policies that made Healthcare expensive in the first place. Same with Education and how Federal student loans are driving up the costs. More Government= bad.
pf91rodman 4 weeks ago
Okay, but weren't Medicare and Medicaid enacted because some people, especially the elderly, couldn't afford healthcare?
Without student loans, wouldn't many kids not be able to afford college?
Edgehead10075 4 weeks ago 7
@Edgehead10075
And look where Medicare and Medicaid got us. Healthcare is even less affordable now. It's crazy how expensive it is.
Last time I checked, students are 1.1 Trillion dollars in federal student loan debt. That's what happens when the government guarantees loans to useless Liberal Arts degrees. That just proves how inefficient and wasteful the government is.If loans were handled by the private sector, there wouldn't be any waste.People would care more about who they're loaning to.
pf91rodman 4 weeks ago
Are you saying that students who major in liberal arts shouldn't receive loans?
Okay, healthcare is less affordable, but there are people who need Medicare and Medicaid. Without Medicare, it would be hard for the elderly to have healthcare because most of them don't work.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
@Edgehead10075
I'm saying students shouldn't be guaranteed federal student loans. Think about it, if you had a business, would you carelessly give loans to English or Sociology majors who received C's and D's? Of course not, because that would be a bad investment. There's no way that person would be able to pay it back. That's what the government is doing right now, and that's why students are in such debt. This is also the reason why Education is getting so expensive now.
pf91rodman 3 weeks ago
@Edgehead10075 Regarding healthcare, there's no way we can get rid of Medicare and Medicaid overnight, because people are so dependent on it. But what we should do is start phasing it out, by letting young people op out of it. These programs cause more harm than good, and are the primary reason why Healthcare is so unaffordable Same with the failure that is Social Security.
pf91rodman 3 weeks ago
@Edgehead10075 Medicaid is for those who cannot afford insurance for their families or the out of pocket expenses that occur with Medicare. Not all poor qualify. That's why some hospitals offer Charity Care. Those on Medicare (Seniors or disabled) pay for their "Part B" coverage, deductibles & co-insurance.
tink5851 3 weeks ago
Yes. Not all poor qualify for Medicaid, which is why we still have the problem of people without health insurance.
Some hospitals help out those who cannot afford insurance, but they're not required to do so. A person can be turned away from non-emergency healthcare. Everyone should just have health insurance. That would make things much simpler. Those without coverage wouldn't have to go searching for a charity.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
Furthermore, insurance companies would then pay for all emergency healthcare, instead of the taxpayers footing the bill for those who can't afford it. Right now the taxpayers are paying for one of Ron Paul's campaign workers who died without having health insurance.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
@Edgehead10075 It is absolutely not a right. You do not have the right to force anyone to do anything.
What gives you the right to demand a doctor do something that you can not pay for? You don't have an inherent right that requires a service from someone else without paying for it, because that infringes THEIR right as a free citizen.
If you are an EMT, do they have the right to force you to work without being paid? You don't understand what rights are.
dangercartxx 3 weeks ago
EMT's are paid, though.
The thing is, when you open a hospital (or any business) or attain a license to practice medicine or be an EMT, you're agreeing to serve the public. Therefore, it's not slavery for the law to require a doctor or EMT to do their job and help save lives. If you don't want to save lives, don't become a doctor or an EMT.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
"What gives you the right to demand a doctor do something that you can not pay for?" Well, isn't that all the more reason to make sure everybody has health insurance? Then everybody is paid for.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
Federal law says that emergency healthcare must be provided for everyone who needs it, regardless of the ability to pay. That is to make sure that people don't die needlessly. If a doctor doesn't want to provide emergency healthcare for that person, he/she shouldn't have become a doctor then.
Am I correct in assuming that you believe the Civil Rights Act is slavery because it requires businesses to not discriminate against people based on race (In other words, they MUST serve blacks.)?
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
Your views are interesting but definitely not mainstream. The average American has no problem with paying a small percentage of taxes that go to help those in need.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
@Edgehead10075
There is no such thing as a "right" to healthcare. In the American political tradition, rights are inherent, whereas healthcare requires someone willling to provide such services and a group of taxpayers legally compelled to foot the bill for the indigent. If you consider those things inherent, then your view of what is and isn't a right certainly has no foundation in American political thought. Just because something is desirable doesn't make it a right.
masanf 3 weeks ago
It doesn't matter if it's not a constitutional right. Everyone should have it. If you don't agree with that, what you're basically saying is that it's okay to let people die in the streets. You can't have it both ways; either you're saying one or the other. The taxpayers SHOULD be forced to pay for a poor person's healthcare in the twenty-first century.
The founding fathers didn't mention healthcare because it was the eighteenth century. They were backwards compared to today.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
Healthcare for all has plenty of foundation in American political thought. Harry Truman wanted everyone to have healthcare.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
BTW, a service can be a right. Having a defense attorney in a criminal trial is a service being provided by the defense attorney, and it's also a constitutional right.
Edgehead10075 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@masanf "There is no such thing as a "right" to healthcare. In the American political tradition, rights are inherent, "
That seems more like an argument made by Cicero than anyone else. The whole 'natural law' tripe is largely a bunch of bullshit made up by people who are already endowed with a silver spoon in their mouths.
Activeassholeonpills 2 weeks ago
@Edgehead10075 Really? I'm a liberal but I firmly believe nobody has a right someone else's services. Isn't communicating with a loved one a human right? If so, shouldn't I be able to walk in to FedEx and mail a card to my grandma for free? Isn't food a human right? If so, shouldn't the government pay for me to go to Olive Garden? Isn't education a human right? Shouldn't I get to go to any university for free?
DreamWeaver1988 3 days ago
If you can't afford healthcare, the government should pay for it. You mention education and food. K-12 education is free, and many people who can't afford food get Food Stamps.
Healthcare may not be a constitutional right, but everyone should have it. I can't think of a logical reason why someone should be denied healthcare. Can you?
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
In France, the government pays for healthcare. I don't think the doctors there feel like slaves. Their healthcare system is much better than ours.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
You say that we don't have the right to someone else's services, but that's not true. No hospital can turn down anyone for emergency services for any reason. Do the doctors there feel like slaves? I don't think so.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
@Edgehead10075 Nice job with the five posts bro. But, I'll respond to each one. Hospitals, out of the kindness of their hearts, open up their ERs to those who cannot pay. The majority of the time, the visits aren't even emergencies. Other times, you just have pill-seekers. It's a cluster*uck.
DreamWeaver1988 3 days ago
Wrong. Hospitals are forced by federal law to treat emergency patients whether or not they can pay. So much for your argument that there is no right to anybody else's services. If you're trying to argue that that's slavery, then you're an idiot. Don't want to be forced to provide healthcare? Then don't open up a hospital. Nobody forced anybody to open up a hospital, so there's no force involved. It's not slavery, so Rand Paul is a moron.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
@Edgehead10075 Keyword here: "forced." When I become a physician, I will CHOOSE to treat some patients for a reduced fee, or no fee, and I will volunteer some of my free time in a clinic.
DreamWeaver1988 3 days ago
Even with universal healthcare, you won't lose that freedom. That is assured.
When people argue that healthcare is a "human right," I don't think any of them mean to say that it should be free. They just believe that the taxpayers should pay for it.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
@Edgehead10075 You're arguing against my idea, which involves a change in the system, by providing an example of what currently goes on. You are an idiot. Do I have a right to free dental care? To free housing? To free engineering?
DreamWeaver1988 3 days ago
I didn't know that you had an idea. I thought you were just saying that there's no right to anybody else's services, as if that was currently a fact.
There's no constitutional right to any of the things you mentioned, but society has programs to help poor people who can't afford those things. Apparently you would just let those people be homeless and not have dental/medical care. How "liberal" of you!
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
@Edgehead10075 Again, thank you for proving my point. There is "no constitutional right" as you yourself said for many things, including healthcare. I actually AM in favor of the government helping people pay for healthcare. This is what is done with Section 8 housing choice vouchers and food stamps. Of course, this is a form of socialism (and I'm okay with that). Just don't say you exist, therefore you should be able to waltz into a hospital and receive care.
DreamWeaver1988 3 days ago
I'm thinking that we don't disagree as much as you previously believed. However, you can "waltz" into a hospital and receive care if you're an emergency patient. That's a life-and-death situation, which is why that federal law is in place.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
Interestingly enough, if everyone is insured, which Rand Paul opposes, we wouldn't have the problem of people not being able to pay for emergency healthcare.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
When a person becomes a doctor, he agrees to serve the people, just like someone who opens up a restaurant agrees to serve the public. Is it slavery to say that a restaurant can't refuse to serve a person because of his or her color? I don't think so. When you get a license to have a business or be a doctor, you agree to play by the rules. If you don't like that, then don't become a doctor or open a business.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
@Edgehead10075 A doctor works for a wage, just like the rest of us. There is no agreement to serve the public involved.
DreamWeaver1988 3 days ago
I wasn't trying to be obnoxious, but I needed five posts to say everything that I wanted to say. No need to resort to insults, asshole. You honestly don't sound like a liberal, even though you claim to be one.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
Are you also going to argue that a restaurant makes no agreement to serve the public, even though they're open to the public?
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
I'm pretty sure that a doctor has to obey civil rights laws. He can't refuse to treat a patient because the patient is black, so you're at least partially wrong. A doctor can't just say, "I'm not going to treat him because I'm not a slave and nobody has the right to my services." The doctor would need a legitimate reason.
If an emergency room doctor refuses to provide emergency care for a patient, he should lose his license and be arrested.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
@Edgehead10075 Who said ANYTHING about race? Of course, restaurants should serve anyone who can pay for the services they receive.
DreamWeaver1988 3 days ago
You said that there's no right to anyone else's services. Why should it matter whether you can pay or not, according to that logic? So if you can pay, you have a right to services? Well then what's your problem with universal healthcare? Everybody would be able to pay, as everybody would be insured. You're very confusing.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
@Edgehead10075 I want people to pay for the services they receive. I pay to mail packages. I pay to have my teeth cleaned. I pay to get physicals. I pay for food. I pay for beer. I pay for a sit-down dinner. I pay for prescription drugs. Again, if the government wants to offer a low-level insurance plan for the insured, that would be fine. Low-income persons would buy into the plan, and that money would pay nurses, doctors, lab techs, office managers, etc.
DreamWeaver1988 3 days ago
Nobody is saying that you shouldn't be paid for your services. The debate is about who should pay for it. Should the government pay some of the costs for lower-income people?
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
@Edgehead10075 The government is in no way obligated to pay for any costs for anyone. In a compassionate society, however, and especially in year 2012, that's something to consider. I think we can agree that socialized health care = bad, increased access to healthcare = good, government helping poor people pay for healthcare = good.
DreamWeaver1988 2 days ago
I agree on that, yes.
Edgehead10075 2 days ago
One last thing. I'd say that healthcare, being about life and death, is more important than communicating with a loved one and even education. If you go to college, it can be reasonably expected that you pick up part of the tab. Getting a job can help pay for it. Food is very important. However, a person who is able-bodied can be expected to get a job to help pay for food. Healthcare is different. If you get sick, it's imperative that you have health insurance.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
As a society, we can't just let people die, and we can't tell someone who gets sick to "get a job." That's why the government should help pay for poor people's health insurance.
BTW, read the Constitution. It says that, if you're a criminal defendant, you have the RIGHT to a defense attorney. That's an example of having the right to someone else's services, so this isn't an entirely new idea.
Edgehead10075 3 days ago
I side with Senator Paul on this issue, but I'm really just posting so that the first 50 comments people read aren't the disgusting nonsense that went on 4 days ago. If anyone feels like debating me in a civil manner, I'd be more than happy, especially if it moves the pointless filth below off the first page.
TheORBOTRON 1 month ago
What a misleading TWAT! FUCK YOU RAND PAUL!
deeppurple28 1 month ago
@deeppurple28 The only person doing the misleading here is Sanders. Bernie Sanders is a far-left Marxist Bolshevik Jew nutjob. Words cannot describe the contempt I have for this detestable piece of garbage. He's everything this country should flush down the toilet.
432ps1 1 month ago
@432ps1 NOPE, WRONG! That imbecile Rand Paul is trying to scare gullible people like yourself! Slavery? LOL There are no slaves in Government health care Rand YOU MORON! Is Randy the retard suggesting that VA Employees are slaves? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
deeppurple28 1 month ago
@deeppurple28 This is NOT France, you thick, jew loving pinko twat. When are assholes going to figure this out: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "FREE" HEALTHCARE! I want the fucking government OUT of my Dr's office. OUT of my light socket. OUT of my gas tank. OUT of my toilet, AND OUT OF MY LIFE!
432ps1 1 month ago
@432ps1 What the fuck are you talking about you cock muncher!? I'm a jew now according to you? LOL! So this is how the average Rand Paul idiot voter reacts? YOU ARE FUCKING PATHETIC you CUNT! Like I said before, Randy here is trying to scare of retards like you you cumm drinking faggot! Slaves, yeah right BITCH! There are no slaves in Health care, now pull your head out of that loose crusty crevice you call your anus BITCH! FUCK YOU CUNT!
deeppurple28 1 month ago
@deeppurple28 Nice try you thick cunt. Now go and suck the maggots out of your mothers ass you filthy autofellating felching French faggot. You're everything this country needs to flush down the toilet you wormy little twat.
432ps1 1 month ago
@432ps1 You truly are the load that whore you once called mommy should have swallowed, listen you fucking product of incest, why don't you do us all a favor and go sit on a rusty nail and twist you fucking cumm drinking cock muncher! SIT ON IT AND Let your ass hole slowly Rust you gullible CUNT!
deeppurple28 1 month ago
@deeppurple28 LOL! Is that all you got? Go lick Bernie's Jewish balls, you cowardly little fuck.
432ps1 1 month ago
@432ps1 LOL Is that all you got you cumm drinking whore? Now stfu and go lick Rand Paul's crusty and hairy asshole you fucking redneck BITCH! Sit on a rusty screw driver while you suck Rand Paul's shitty ass hole you cumm drinking faggot!
deeppurple28 1 month ago
Rand Paul himself (and his father) is enjoying govt. funded free healthcare, now he is against healthcare for others? No wonder someone call Libertarians "socialism for themselves, capitalism for others"
SleepingSun1985 1 month ago
@SleepingSun1985 Ron Paul doesn't take part in the congressional health care plan, nor does he take a government pension. Check your facts before you spout off nonsense.
Drahthaar422 1 month ago
Bernie sanders is right. Rand Paul is completely wrong trying to compare healthcare to slavery.
cesarG222 1 month ago
For anyone who is against laissez faire please answer the following questions: 1. How do you determine the most beneficial way to allocate resources? 2. How do you find the monetary value of any and all goods and services? These questions are known as the Calculation Problem. The Austrian School of Economics has answers for these questions. For those of you who disagree with laissez faire, what then are your answers?
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago
@FreedomFighter1131 not everything is supposed to have a monetary value, tell me do you support the teachings of Rothbard.
irishgodfatherchris 1 month ago
@irishgodfatherchris If a good or service has no monetary value how is it provided? If a good or service has no monetary value than how do you give payment for the work, time and effort that was needed to create, provide and distribute that good or service? Please name a good or service with no monetary value and how it is provided.
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago
@FreedomFighter1131 none and thats the problem not everything should be measured in the level of profit that it makes take the public system for example its sole purpose is the serve the people, money means nothing to the public system (well it shouldn't mean anything the public system). All we've done regarding currency over time is refined the barter system. Finally can you kindly answer my question regarding Rothbard
irishgodfatherchris 1 month ago
@irishgodfatherchris The reason governments all over the world are in debt is because money means nothing to them. The reason people are losing the ability to make choices concerning how to run their lives and the reason governments are waging wars which have killed a quarter of a billion people in the last 100 years proves they don't care about serving the people. So if it's not about money or serving the people what is it about? (and yes I like Rothbard) answer my 2 questions from my last post
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago
@FreedomFighter1131 Healthcare under the public system (NHS, Medicare - Australian version etc.) has no monetary value its simply a service that is provided free of charge (taxes notwithstanding of course) also instead of paying someone a piece of plastic (in my country's case) how about paying them something that the person can physically use (some countries use this type of system normally with cows or in some cases camels) because its clear that the current system in broken
irishgodfatherchris 1 month ago
@irishgodfatherchris If there is no monetary value than how is it determined how much compensation a doctor should receive for using his abilities? A barter system would be moral only if both parties agreed on what was being given in the exchange. If a person wanted a camel for their services and the other wanted to give a camel that would be perfectly moral. How do you determine what a person's services are worth unless you let individuals choose voluntarily on a case by case basis?
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago
@FreedomFighter1131 again you go back the "moral" thing again which is just pathetic on your part you can do better especially seeing as how morality is subjective and I can't stress this enough not everything is about making money. Just out of curiosity have you read Rothbard's teachings with regards to women and children
irishgodfatherchris 1 month ago
@irishgodfatherchris yea I'm not crazy about everything he said. I'm pro-life for example. I think he was probably looking at children from an evolutionist (humans are animals) perspective and I am not an evolutionist but I do love his economics. As far as things not being about making money, if there is no monetary value how do u determine how much compensation a doctor should receive for his services? Should a doctor get nothing and starve? How do u determine what a persons services are worth
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago
@FreedomFighter1131 he looked at women and children as property and in fact wrote about the idea of selling children on the free market. Also he said in his writings that parents should not be forced to look after their own child/children even if that resulted in the death of aforementioned child/children. Finally I don't determine worth personal or otherwise because much like morality its subjective, how do YOU decide how much a person's services are worth.
irishgodfatherchris 1 month ago
@irishgodfatherchris The only way that you can determine the true value of any good or service is by looking at the compromise of the lowest someone is willing to take for that good or service vs the highest someone is willing to pay. This is the only way to know how best to allocate recourses and the only way to know how much compensation someone should receive.
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago
@FreedomFighter1131 how do you know that is the best way for the allocation of resources this is merely your opinion its completely subjective I'm not saying that Socialism is perfect but in my opinion it easily outdoes Anarcho-Capitalism any day of the week. I'll say this for the final time then I'll call it a draw so to speak because its clear neither of us are willing to budge from our respective positions not everything is supposed to be about making money it should be about advancing humans
irishgodfatherchris 1 month ago
@irishgodfatherchris Yea it has been really fun debating you. Thanks for staying with it so long. When people like us debate, its really not about persuading the other since we both know neither of us will concede, its about persuading our readers. I agree we need to advance humanity and I wish the politicians (like the ones in this video) had the kind of in depth discussion you and I just had. Thanks again
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago
Oh wow. A sound intellectual reasoning about the philosophical implications of a "right" to something someone else produces is met with such a childish response. Wow. I sure hope no one ever votes for this "Sanders" again. Ridiculous.
MikaelUmaN 1 month ago
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Rand Paul you live in a fantasy world buddy..... Every other industrialized nation has universal health care and there not abducting doctors or being enslaved.... Dude your truly and idiot...
funkyflights 2 months ago
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funkyflights 2 months ago
Considering the rules/guidelines I'm surprised that all these hateful comments toward Senator Paul are being allowed to remain on the comment board. Anyway, please, I just have a few honest questions I would like to ask. 1. Would it be okay to use violence or the threat of violence against a doctor if he refused to help someone in order to make him help? 2. If a doctor has a right to be paid for his services is it a good thing to force others to help you pay that doctor? Please answer & respond.
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 under UHC doctors still get paid you know my local doctor gets at least 250 grand a year and thats just a conservative estimate, the fact of the matter is no one forces the doctor to treat you, as it is under the Hippocratic Oath they are compelled to look after you anyway also and this is the single most important point under UHC no one dies because they cannot afford medical treatment, only in the US does this happen.
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
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@irishgodfatherchris I understand that doctors get paid a lot, I understand that insurance companies make things more expensive for everyone and get in the way and gives high incentives for making health care far more expensive than it needs to be. I also understand what the Hippocratic Oath says. But none of that answers my 2 questions. Is it be okay to use the threat of violence against a doctor if he refused to help someone? & is it a good thing to force others to help you pay a doctor?
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris That comment about people not dying because they can't afford it makes no sense to me. If someone dies because they couldn't afford it, that means the doctor chose not treat them because they could not afford it, and yet you said the Hippocratic Oath compels them to help people either way. This is a contradiction. Under UHC people are forced under threat of fine and jail to pay into a collective pool used to pay for everyone. Threatening someone for not helping others is bad
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
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irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 with regards to the Hippocratic Oath, yes it is a contradiction so why are 40,000 US citizens still dying every year because they cannot afford treatment that is dare I say it hypocritical, under everyone pays into the system with their taxes which by the way is cheaper than the private system with their premiums and whatnot
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris lol, sure its cheaper for some, because they avoid having to pay their bill and only pay the tax. But for those that r healthy and don't go to the doctor its more expensive. the real problem is the justice and moral problem. Is it right to make some people pay for others?
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 under UHC they don't get a bill, that's why you pay for it with taxes. Furthermore I find it rich that you are defending a grossly defective system in which people die because they cannot afford treatment and yet you have the bare-faced cheek to try to lecture me on morality
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris I don't defend the current system. Also whether or not i have "bare-faced cheek" does not change the fact that what your advocating is immoral. Yes I can bring up morality because, it is immoral. I'm stating the reality of the situation. It is not right to make people pay for others using threats. Under UHC those that don't go to the doctors must pay a tax so that other people can get health care. That is unjust.
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 EVERYONE pays into the system how is that unjust, you know what is unjust an immoral the fact that in the US people are denied treatment because they cannot afford it, in the rest of the civilised world that does not happen and if you aren't willing to essentially take a hit to your salary (not a lot but you will know its been taken out normally its about 1.5% of your pay cheque) then not only do have no empathy but you are completely immoral and just plain greedy.
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris How do you make someone pay into a system if they don't want to? You have to threaten non-compliers with punishment. You need to throw non-compliers in jail right? Forcing people to pay into a system against their will is immoral. I don't care if some people are greedy, they should be left the choice. Taking their choice is immoral. Make your system voluntary and I won't be against it. As long as people are punished for not complying I will oppose it.
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 if its voluntary then the public system cannot survive, its a simple as that. Its an all or nothing situation, why should people be given the choice the reason why the Congress was elected (initially) was to make laws for everyone (not just a few) so by having a UHC system in which everyone pays into it actually makes healthcare more affordable.
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris if the system can't survive so be it, but its immoral to force people to pay into a system against their will. The reason congress was created was to protect peoples freedom. If your worried about affordable healthcare there is another way. Different from UHC and the current system. It would only take a few easy steps
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 privatising everything is a terrible idea unless you plan to follow the Netherlands lead and regulate the industry heavily
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris 1 tax reform 2 individual medical savings accounts 3 replace FDA with private certification 4 privatize medicare and medicaid and 5 give a tax credit to doctors who get negative outcome insurance. Those 5 steps whould reduce health care costs by an austonomical amount. Then everyone could afford good healthcare.
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 privatising the system is a terrible idea unless they are all bound by very strict regulations as is done in the Netherlands if not all you will do is exacerbate the problem because you'll end up with an oligopoly.
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris no, please do a little more research on those 5 points. You're wrong, I know what I'm talking about. Regulation hurts an economy. You don't need regulations, you just need people to be able to make choices. In economics the true and actual price and value of a good or service can only be determined by a real choice by producers and consumers. Regulations artificially change prices giving false signals in the market. If you do those 5 things health care costs will plummet
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 you're wrong regarding the economy take my country for example (Australia) we have a heavily regulated economy and no recession, we also have low debt, low unemployment and a deficit that is manageable, also we have UHC and a longer lifespan, you know which country the Mises In. said was a functioning Libertarian country, it was Somalia of all places and isn't that a great place to live.
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris I have a deep respect for Australia (mostly because of Steve Irwin) but also because Australia doesn't meddle in other nations affairs they don't go to war. War is a huge part of our debt in America. However regulation is the antithesis of choice and in order to enforce it you need to use coercion. I don't understand how coercion on non-violent people can be moral. Honestly though cheap health care comes from doctors and patients interacting without any 3rd party intrusion.
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 in Australia we still have choice even under UHC we can choose whichever we to treat us (providing their present at the clinic) and we can also get treatment at the local hospital without the prospect of a massive bill arriving in the mail when we get home, of course there is a private system here but it works with the public system rather than against it which means if you have private insurance you can skip waiting lists on elective surgery even in public hospitals.
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris Are you forced to have health insurance even if you don't want it? As long as people can choose private insurance or no insurance than I really don't care if the government wants to compete with private companies. As long as you can choose to not pay into the system if you don't want to use the system than I have no qualms about it. It's a matter of choice. I want the choice to pay my doctor directly without 3rd party involvement.
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 we have healthcare insurance from they day we are born to the day we die, also why do you want to pay your doctor directly when paying via taxes in the long run is cheaper and it makes the system operate more efficiently
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris because when I ask a doctor to use his abilities on my behalf I expect that he and I will agree to terms and payment acceptable to us both before he helps me. The principle is that I want the choice. I just want to be able to have the choice to pay the doctor directly if I want to. Why is it so wrong that I should have that choice? I don't understand why being forcibly prevented from having that choice is a moral or just position. Why is having that choice so bad??
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 its not about choice, its about humanity as a whole, you wanting to just cover your own arse so to speak is not only greedy it just shows that have no empathy, we aren't going progress as a society unless we all work together, humanity has never operated as individuals and been successful we have always operated as collective its why we have settlements (cities, towns, villages etc.) also its how we even operate within our own family you operate as one single group.
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris So you want me to give up my individualism and my ability to make a choice about my own life? I don't understand how someone can so carelessly throw away the greatness of their own existence. You exist autonomously, you are a valuable human being with a life and will all your own. Why would you give that up to some collective to be indistinguishable from anyone else. You and you alone own your life, it belongs to you not the collective, please understand.
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 you're right I am an individual but as a society we have to work together. United we stand, divided we fall, that is true for any society from the most basic to the most complex and if it requires that we be made to pay taxes (only 1.5% of your fortnightly pay cheque), in order to maintain the society so be it.
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris I proposed a solution. A 5 point solution, one that uses logically consistent economic theory and stringent principles based on justice and morality. I can not support forcing people to pay into a system they might not even end up using and throwing them in jail for not complying. It's not humane. You propose threatening people with jail in order to force them to pay for their system. You want all non-compliers in cages. It is immoral.
FreedomFighter1131 2 months ago
@FreedomFighter1131 you have just put an entire paragraph in my mouth none of which I wrote, you are forced to go to school why shouldn't you be forced through taxes so its deducted from your pay so its not possible to not pay into the system it is just not possible, take here fro example you cannot avoid unless you belong to the super-low income strata to not pay into the system its not possible, how can you be sent to prison for not paying when its not possible for you to avoid paying.
irishgodfatherchris 2 months ago
@irishgodfatherchris I go to private school I should not have to pay into the public school system, it should be my choice which school I use, then I pay for the one I use. Same for healthcare, you should pay for what you use. if you want to pay for yourself and not use UHC then u should not pay for UHC. However if I apply that I go to jail, throwing me in a cage for NOT paying for something I didn't use is immoral. And making me use a particular system over another against my will is immoral.
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago
@FreedomFighter1131 oh of course does that mean you should have private fire brigades (and that has a proud history of praying on the disadvantaged) private everything for that matter, as someone who has done economics granted my view is quite a bit different and if anything a bit world-weary than that of my lecturer (who's only 22 by the way) I can see that perfect competition is a fantasy and that a solely private system results in an oligopoly (I presume you know what that is)
irishgodfatherchris 1 month ago
@irishgodfatherchris @irishgodfatherchris a truly lassiez faire market wont create an oligopoly because of the point which your branch of economics always seems to ignore which is the Calculation Problem which states that the true price of any good or service can only be determined through voluntary interaction. So without a true Market Price it is impossible for people to see the most benificial economic decision at any given time.
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago
@FreedomFighter1131 lassiez faire capitalism is a fantasy cooked up by people who want to be super-rich and hang the consequences
irishgodfatherchris 1 month ago
@irishgodfatherchris you can call it a fantasy, but what about the actual argument? How do you solve the Calculation Problem? Your branch of economics has no answer. You claim it is a fantasy and it creates an oligopoly but those are just empty words. Go ahead and defend your claims.
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago
@irishgodfatherchris Also one more thing about Oligopolies. In a true laissez faire economy, oligopolies are short lived and are not harmful in the way they are under corporatism. The so called crony capitalism is corporatism (That's the official name) In which all corporations are in bed with the government. In America we have corporatism right now, we also have government taking bribes as being the norm of how business is done in politics. I recommend changing the system to no corporatism.
FreedomFighter1131 1 month ago