Response to fritleyfrisp

[donttrustthebible]

"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! (Luke 12:5)

"It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:31)

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (2 Peter2:4)

[TheMissNicky3000]

He commands us to love, but He will not compel us to love. God commands us to treat others fairly, but He will not force us to do so. Hewants us to love him but won't force us to. God loves you all!!!

[Paparappa62]

He wants us to love him, but if we don't then he will send us to hell to be tortured. How is this a choice?

If I put a gun to your head and gave you two options, one of which leads to me pulling the trigger, would you call that a choice?

[TheMissNicky3000]

The Bible teaches that God did not create hell as a judgment for humanity. God created hell for the punishment of the devil and his angels and not as a place for human beings to suffer. Since God created us in His image, He will not destroy us after death, but He does need a place for those who choose to practice hatred instead of love and disobedience instead of obedience. He doesn't chose who goes to hell and who doesn't he gave humans and angels free will. (continued..........)

[EchosFromaBlankMind]

God would be labeled a psychotic by any other standards, but hey! when your omnipitent, you would just be classified as a little bit eccentric!

[cyxgun]

I guess god sending someone to hell is the cosmological equivalent of Bush's "extraordinary rendition" policy, where he sends people he wants tortured to countries where torture is legal.

[KeratinizingSquamous]

lol...

[julzabro]

Furthermore, how do Christians STILL try to claim that their god is merciful and in the next breath tell you what u MUST do in order to avoid hell and damnation!

[julzabro]

This is what dismantles the god of Abraham.....GOD, in order to BE god, CREATED Satan. If not he...the who? God placed the Tree (the red button) in the Garden....god created light AND darkness. God ALLOWS Satan to tempt, torture and eternally burn...(see the Book of Job)so why do so many worship him?

[Philos2006]

grovergrunt: Great comment. God can do anything, except "write an instruction book that is understandable by all, that does not need interpretation by other fallible humans "

And nobody was given divine credentials to interpret this instruction book.

[grovergrunt]

The very fact that there is room for interpreting this damnable book is evidence alone for the fact its a complete crock!

If it was the word of god surely he could have done a basic edit???

Even an average novel these days has been checked over to make sure it makes sense on a fundamental level.

But the bible?

Nope.

Hocus pocus and mumbojombo.

[darkforce333]

"The very fact that there is room for interpreting this damnable book is evidence alone for the fact its a complete crock!"

Not really since the important themes in the Bible are clear. Even Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, and protestants agree on much.

[limegreensquid]

And so does the KKK.

[grovergrunt]

Themes??? If this is in fact the word of god, then why is it so hard to actually work out **exactly** what is being said? Surely a god could manage something a little better than a theme.

The koran and the bible agree on more than a few points and themes, what does that mean?

[darkforce333]

Why do people like you insist that I defend assertions I never made? Read my other post where I said "No it doesn't make sense to me", which applies to more than just hell. Yet when I explain how Christianity can make some sense and not be contradictory against dubious accusations you people just act like I'm a stupid fundy? C'mon. What's the point of dishonestly smearing religion? There's enough to criticize as there is.

[darkforce333]

grovergrunt:

My last message didn't necessarily apply to you on everything I said. So I'm sorry if It sounded like I was going after you unjustely. I'm just speaking out about the comments I'm getting in general.

"Surely a god could manage something a little better than a theme. "

That's really a matter of opinion. My opinion is that hell isn't very fair. Does change the truth value of the assertion? I didn't say the bible was all clear; I said the basic ideas of the bible are clear.

[ofpfury]

Palin leads prayer for Earth's destruction? Someone PLEASE tell me I misunderstand this.

watch?v=SQq4b5IQhq8

2:00+

Palin re: Wasilla's Masters Commission student's: "destinies to be met", "things are coming along", "percolating"

see faq "what is" at masterscommissionusa

It appears Palin actively seeks fulfillment of the prophesies of revelations - the end of the world. (somehow excepting Alaska and Wisconsin)

These people "speak in tongues."

[DILDOlover]

God is such a prick.

[darkforce333]

Where's the biblical support that God wants to give more or less pain to people in hell or at all? Maybe seperation from God is hell because God is the source of all good. Your argument is unfounded because it ignores the reason hell is there. The Bible states hell is a place of agony, not necessarily tortue. It also speaks of it as outer darkness and eternal flames. Both can't be true at the same time so it seems it could be a figure of speach to indicate the suffering of rejecting God.

[xXAkridXx]

"suffering of rejecting God" Oh yes the inevitable suffering for not choosing the one correct religon out of countless others. Does this honestly make sense to you?

[darkforce333]

no. Did I indicate to you that It did make sense to me? Don't mistake me arguing the issue with what make sense to me.

[xXAkridXx]

Yes you did indicate that it makes sense to you, because that's what you believe isn't it?

[darkforce333]

I didn't say it made sense. I was arguing against someone who said that the Bible doesn't teach hell. I wouldn't say the view on hell in the Bible is contradictory though. I don't see any clear passages that contradict the view of hell.

[xXAkridXx]

Maybe you need to read my original comment again. You are trying to red herring. You do indeed believe that a person needs to believe in your god to go to heaven and not hell.

[darkforce333]

No it doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand how we are expected to believe that God is all loving and we are so evil that we all deserve eternal punishment. I don't understand how God wants everyone to be saved, yet it seems evident from the world around us that people honesty don't believe for factual reasons and not because they did evil.

[xXAkridXx]

"So it seems it could be a figure of speach to indicate the suffering of rejecting God."

This contradicts your comment here. Maybe the only logical conclusion here then is that God is imaginary.

[darkforce333]

"God is imaginary."

Which God is imaginary? How can you claim that all god's are imaginary? If you want to go into the existence of God or argue about Christianity that is a whole different thing. I was just focusing on what the Bible says and the possible solutions to avoid a contradiction.

[xXAkridXx]

But there is a contradiction, and what god do you think I was talking about? Were we not talking about the bible? Stop these red herrings.

[Philos2006]

darkforce333:"Your argument is unfounded because it ignores the reason hell is there. The Bible states hell is a place of agony"

Study your bible; Hell is impossible according to your bible and to logic.

[darkforce333]

I have studied the Bible. Hell is definitely taught. I don't know what you mean by "Hell is impossible according to your bible and to logic."

"Study your bible"

Give me an argument of disagreement instead of question how much I know about the Bible. With that kind of comment I highly doubt you've studied the bible, theology or apologetics more than I have.

[Philos2006]

Drakforce333:

John 4-8 : God is love.

Corinthians"Love is patient, love is kind. it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

If love(god) does not keep records of wrong, how can there be a hell ?

Tell me

[darkforce333]

I could go through theories, but the bottom line that the bible clearly states is Jesus wants all to be saved but won't force his gift of eternal life on people. Nobody wants to go to hell but they will it by rejecting God. God is good and to reject God is to reject the light.

If God is love why is there evil? The problem of evil is really what you are challenged with. That is a problem for Christianity even if you wish away the clear teaching of Hell. Argue with the Bible, not me.

[Philos2006]

darkforce333: The bottom line is sir, if there is a hell, the bible verses cited are contradictory. Which of course you will never admit.

[darkforce333]

Give me some contradictory verses? I will admit them if I see some contradictory. The problem is you can find a contradiction if you demand a very narrow understanding of the history/linguistics/culture/fi­gures of speech of a text. Deal with it appropriately with some verses and I'll take your charge seriously.

[U4godlike]

I dont quite agree with the graph as Frisp did. I dont view Atheism as a choice of belief that personally, but it did prove the point and that is whats important.

You've consistently made great videos, and your probably on my top 3 favorite atheists I subscribe too. Keep up the great work :]

[fritleyfrisp]

Hi azsuperman01.

Thanks for the video response, for the gracious and thoughtful words you used. You're right, I did miss the point of the graph, my mistake, I see what you were getting at now. While I didn't think you were trying to prove atheism, I did think you were demonstrating that Christians had as much chance of being right as any other religion. So, I got it wrong. I respectfully disagree with you regarding hell but I'm sure we can agree to disagree.

Cheers =)

[bulbulxp]

to fritleyfrisp :

"I respectfully disagree with you regarding hell". Please tell why you disagree with him. What are your arguments and thoughts? Or are you just ignorant and want to stick on your position without thinking about it?

[fullygodfullyhuman]

Because most christians cherry-pick... It's ok...lol

[U4godlike]

I concur what is your rational for why God isn't to blame for eternal punishment?

[entheogensmurf]

It's amusing but not surprising how fritleyfrisp didn't pay attention to the entire content of your video and responded to his own version.

Thanks for your efforts azsuperman01.

[Ansonidak]

"Hell is an automated torture chamber created by God"

Beautiful phrasing in this video. Good job as usual.

[naruto64kun]

sweet dude your still my hero!!!!

[xesiria]

Have you read the Koran?

It is said that to be the only Bible that has not be altered to infiltrated by descendants of the rulers of Egypt.

[WIzDum82]

az- I,ve have said to you and many others that

hell is death for eternity. That God will not bring back to life the wicked just to torture them. The spirit is not eternal, it didn't always exist and always will exist like YOU were taught. I know most churches teach that the soul will be brought back to life, judged,

and thrown into hell for all eternity to suffer. But, noone can show that from the scriptures. The bible clearly states that the wicked will be put to death, that is the penalty.

[WIzDum82]

So, heres a tough question for az., Where in the bible does it say that the wicked will be brought back or given LIFE? I not asking about weeping, gnashing of teeth, suffering, or any other action to the wicked, b/c thats is to the interpretation of those verses. I only asking for a simple verse that states that the wicked will receive life.

[someweirdgayguy]

Depending on the version of Bible you use, you can show that hell exists and people are being thrown into it burn for eternity, or you can show that hell does not exist and people are just killed.

I'm going to guess that you're using the New World Translation, but there might be others that would support what you're saying.

[WIzDum82]

swgguy- Yes you can show that hell exist and that people are being totured there, if you misinterprete the scriptures. We can not take one verse and build a doctrine around it, we must take all the verses of the bible and make them to harmonize with each other. Otherwise we get so many wrong teachings,as we can see by all the different churches. The bible is clear that the penalty of sin is death and only the chosen will receive eternal life.

[KamuiSeph]

Ever thought that it's not everyone else interpreting it wrong,but you are?

Just a thought.

[WIzDum82]

Kamui- I could be interpreting it wrong, thats why I asked for just ONE verse that says the wicked will be brought to life, just ONE.

[TwoDeeMan]

There are 54 references to hell in the Bible. Are you saying that Yahweh just created the place so that no one would use it?

[WIzDum82]

TDman- Yes, but the question is what is hell?

If you look those verse up where it says hell in the English bible and then check to see what those words are in the hebrew and the greek they are hades, gehenna,and sheol they all mean the grave or the burning trash dump outside the cities walls. The wicked will be placed in the lake of fire (a big burning trash dump with the dead in it outside the cities walls. Their not alive thats what I'm saying.

[TwoDeeMan]

In the parable of Lazarus and the Dives (Luke chapter 16, I believe) the unnamed rich man dies, is buried, and goes to hell. There he is in torment and begs for relief, but it is denied him; he begs for a second chance, but it is denied him; he begs to give a more direct warning of what is to come, but it is denied him. He is left to suffer.

Your interpretation seems valid; so does mine. I guess the Bible is vague, inconsistent, or self-contradictory. (btw preceed "54 verses" w/ "at least")

[WIzDum82]

TDMan- The parable of the rich man and Lararus

is just that a parable inwhich we are to learn many truths from, but to interprete the parable we have be consistent with what the rest of the bible teaches. We know from Eccl.9:4,5,10 in these verses we are taught that the dead have no feelings, emotions, knowledge

,nor wisdom they have no consciousness. So although theres alot to learn from the Lazarus parable, being in hell alive isn't one of them.

[TwoDeeMan]

What lesson are we to take from this, bearing in mind that the torments of hell are mentioned four times between verses 19 and 31?

Further, your reference to Eccl seems to point to *all* dead people. As a result it is also incompatable with the doctrine of heaven.

"There is no man that liveth always..." Eccl. 9:4

So is Yahweh lying or incorrect when he says that his gift is eternal life?

[WIzDum82]

TDMan- The Eccl.chpt.9 is teaching us throughout the chpt.that the saved and the unsaved have one thing in common. That they are both quilty of sin and are going to die. We are to live our lives to the fullest while we are alive. Now the verses that pertain to the ones in the grave, when we do as we are suppose to do and compare scripture with scripture, we know that the unsaved will die body and soul and return to the dust of the earth. cont.

[WIzDum82]

When we search the bible we find that the saved when they die, their soul returns to the presence of the Lord. Their body goes to the grave just as the unsaved, but when Christ returns they receive a new resurrected body inwhich they have through out eternity. Now I can prove that the bible teaches this, what I'm trying to get from someone is where in the bible does it say that the unsaved will receieve a body or even return to life.

[TwoDeeMan]

"And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the pool of fire."

Revelations 20:13-15

There's your verse. Everyone is returned from death, judged, and whosoever's name isn't in the book goes to a lake of fire.

[WIzDum82]

TDMan- Nowhere does it say that they were given life. There isn't a judgement day where all the dead comeback to life and have their whole life under the microscope of God. It is the word of God that judges us and it does it everyday of our lives. When the wicked die their soul doesn't go to heaven, but to the grave(hell) b/c they've already been judged. The saved go to be with God when they die b/c they already went through judgement by Christ having taken their place. Cont.

[WIzDum82]

There is indeed a final judgement when Christ returns and the Great earthquake opens all the graves and the saved resurrected bodies join with their spirit and the dead will spew out upon the land as dung upon a field. They will be held in condamnation, shamed before God and the heavenly bodies, and then burned as God destroys this earth in purification.

[TwoDeeMan]

"...death...gave up [its] dead..."

Death's grip on those people has been reliquished, they are no longer dead.

Note that the judging happens after death gives them up, not every day.

Your mental gymnastics have been entertaining, but they grow tedious. I bid you good day and encourage you to read your Bible without assuming that it is true from the outset.

[TwoDeeMan]

But the verse is not so interesting. What's interesting is that you say this: "...when Christ returns they receive a new resurrected body inwhich they have through out eternity." Immediately after citing this passage: "There is no man that liveth always..."

Just how long *have* we been at war with Eastasia?

[KamuiSeph]

Who ever said that they will be brought to life? According to most christians,the soul doesn't die,so when the body dies,the soul goes to hell. Nowhere is it required for something to be reanimated.

[WIzDum82]

Kamui- "According to most christians,the soul doesn't die," Then most christians are wrong and don't believe the word of God. Ezek.18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the SOUL that sinneth, it SHALL DIE. Ezek.18:20 The SOUL that sinneth, it SHALL DIE. Matt.10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY IN HELL.

[WIzDum82]

Now take these verses and hold them with Eccl.9:5...but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Vs.#6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; Vs#10...for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. You can see that a dead body and soul have no life nor consciousness. If you aren't "reanimated" then your DEAD.

[KamuiSeph]

John 11:25-26

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Well i can only see 4 possibilities:

1. I'm interpreting it wrong

2. You're interpreting it wrong

3. We're both wrong

4. The bible contradicts itself

I bet it's either 3 or 4. Most likely 4.

But good point though,don't remember reading those verses you quoted... Too bad i don't have a bible handy.

[WIzDum82]

Kamui- I'm not sure how you intrepreting this verse b/c you didn't. You couldn't possibly interpreting as the wicked would be the ones that are going to be living b/c they don't BELIEVE.

[azsuperman01]

And that's why I provided it... but, in case you don't like that one, here's another:

Acts 24:15 "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, BOTH OF THE JUST AND UNJUST."

[WIzDum82]

az- In both of the verses that you gave ONLY SHOW that that wicked will rise. I've already said that when the great earthquake happens that the graves will be opened and the saved will receive their resurrected bodies and eternal LIFE. But the wicked will be resurrect

(raised) from out of the ground and spewed as DUNG upon the earth. Their not alive their bodies are just laying there to be shamed for all to see and a witness of the judgement of God to the noes left behind. cont.

[WIzDum82]

Jer.8:1,2 At that time, saith the LORD, they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of his princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves: And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: cont.

[WIzDum82]

worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth. These are the ones that were raised out of the grave, now in vs.#3 are the ones left behind still alive. "And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts. They will be torment day and night until God destroys the earth 153 days later.

[WIzDum82]

az- but, in case you don't like that one, here's another: Yes, I do like those verse, but they don't prove what you say, when compared to the veses I just gave you and I have more if you would like them.

[azsuperman01]

WIzDum82 - Congratulations. You've successfully proven that the Bible is internally contradictory.

[intrinloc]

The Bible is ALWAYS contractictory...if you have the wrong approach. The Bible is like God...God is like a twisty-contorted-thingy that needs to be approached in an impossible fashion. But all things are possible with God's help. I can't fit through the eye of a needle, but all things are possible with God.

[azsuperman01]

WIzDum82 - LOL! That's hysterical.

The verse in Acts mentions "a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust," you're claiming that the word "resurrection" actually means two completely different things when referring to the "just" or the "unjust."

What justification do you have for saying this single verse is describing two completely different events?

[WIzDum82]

az- I'm not impling they mean two different things. Resurrection means to be raised up. So you can say that the just were raise up to eternal LIFE, but now the unjust were raised up to damnation. So lets talk about what damnation means not resurrection.

[azsuperman01]

WIzDum82 - Where are you getting your definition?

The word "anastasis" is translated as "resurrection" 39 times in the Bible, to my knowledge EVERY ONE of those uses is referring to someone being brought back from the dead, not simply being "raised up." (Whatever that is supposed to mean.)

[WIzDum82]

az- In most of those verses that you are referring it is speaking of the raising up of the just into eternal life. But the verses that you gave w/ the unjust included in w/ the just, you have to use the infro. from one to understand the other. In Acts 25:15 you only know they are resurrected, so you goto John 5:29 and you can see that the just and the unjust had seperate types of resurrections. I don't have to arbitrarily assign that they are two seperate resurrections the bible did. cont.

[WIzDum82]

It clearly states that the just will be raised up to ETERNAL LIFE again in case you missed it TO LIFE. Then it says that the unjust will be raised up to DAMNATION, thats not LIFE, its judgement of God. You can't say that resurrection means brought back to life, resurrection by defination means to raise up. You can say that the just will be brought back to life in their resurrection b/c thats the context inwhich its being used, but its not the context its used w/ the unjust.

[WIzDum82]

az- the justification for it is the other verse that YOU gave me John 5:29 You can easily se that resurrection doesn't mean to life only, thats life is only for the JUST. The damnation is for the unjust.

[azsuperman01]

WIzDum82 - I still don't see your justification. You seem to be arbitrarily assigning a meaning for "resurrection" that is different than the traditionally accepted definition.

Can you give me a clear example of a verse in the Bible where "resurrection" clearly means something other than "brought back from the dead?"

[touchedbydog]

You cant show anything does or does not exist using the bible or anyother holy book because they could be (and in my opinion are) complete fiction.

[WIzDum82]

touch-I know I can show that my interpretation

of what hell is does exist and you to couldn't disagree with it. My interpretation of hell is death in the grave (meaning when you're dead, you are dead). Can Iprove that death exist? Yes. Can I prove that gaves exist? Yes. I can even prove that grave exist with dead bodies in them. What I want is someone to prove or show by the bible that the wicked dead receive life at somepoint after they are dead.

[windham666]

dumwhiz the reason you "get so many wrong teachings" is you are reading little ripped torn shreds of a 20000 year old newspaper, translated numerous times over the centuries, to obtain the most important wisdom in your life. your only saving grace is you are honest enough to admit YOU are "building a doctine around it." how sad you are too afraid of live to actually live it. you are a humanist in denial. seek knowledge in the world homer. all this stuff is dragging you into the mire.

[ofpfury]

"like YOU were taught"

Where would we be without experts in the unknowable?

[azsuperman01]

Rev 14:10-11

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have no rest day nor night..."

How can that be interpreted to mean anything other than punishment which goes on forever, in front of Jesus?

[Digitalfinch]

Oops, how could anyone miss those points?