Is Spec Work Evil? The Online Creative Community - SXSWi 2009

[MrCsubibubi]

Blablabala

1. Money back guarantee must be banned immediately, if not its only slave labor.

2. Governments must control over these firms or services. They must provide the equal rights to designers too.

[Brandilyn24]

It's another form of slave labor, come one designers! What do you have to loose? Work for FREE!!!!!! Yeah sounds great! NOT forget about it! Stop this it's unethical it's wrong to ask for free work. The only reason why they are getting away with it is because Designers keep submitting we have to stand together to stop this!

[001001sith]

Spec work is sign of the times...look at all the Chinese-copied design tools that try to imitate American top-notched design tools for the automotive and manufacturing industries.

...bollywood, designers, movies, etc....prevailing wages vs. union...no one is safe anymore.

[InkMySkull]

I don't think this can be compare with a doctor profession, but... I would go with Johnny Cutcorners who woke up today because he will want to sussed in his oparating room while the medical school with a PhD by the time he/she gain experience is usually tired of his profession and still around just for the money and don't care about the final product anymore, and for the record, even a medicine doctor shows you, with his/her little prototypes, x-rays and else what the final product will be.

[InkMySkull]

I don't think this can be compare with a doctor profession, but... I would go with Johnny Cutcorners who woke up today because he will want to sussed in his oparating room while the medical school with a PhD by the time he/she gain experience is usually tired of his profession and still around just for the money and don't care about the final product anymore, and for the record, even a medicine doctor shows you, with his/her little prototypes, x-rays and else what the final product will be.

[JosephRooks]

I think Carson makes some extremely valid points. Spot-on. However, I think the biggest thing many people neglect to mention is that design is not the only important factor in building a web site. The content makes just as much of a difference.

[robbreed65]

Carson's spot on. Spec design flat out sucks & cheapens the craft. Being just laid off from creative field -20+ years. While I get real freelance work, there are these opportunistic websites out there looking to profit off of volume discounts of "designers willing to whore themselves out for nothing. Elance is one such site. I was appalled at some of the requests out there for $500 or less to design identity systems. If you are willing to work for nothing, eventually that's what you'll be worth.

[MuzekEntertainment]

These companies need to realize that you can not bend and interpret the law to suit your needs. Law is law, and any wrongdoing WILL catch up with you eventually. (think NAPSTER, THE PIRATE BAY, JACK KEVORKIAN, etc) A contract by very definition MUST be inure to the benefit of BOTH parties. Otherwise, by law, it MUST be construed as a waiver.

[MuzekEntertainment]

Works that fall outside of these nine categories (like LOGO DESIGNS!!) are CLEARLY ineligible to be work for hire, even with a signed contract. Just because these companies have tricked some artists into providing spec work and signing away their rights doesnt mean that its legal to do so, or that their contracts are binding.

[MuzekEntertainment]

1) A contribution to a collective work, 2) A contribution used as part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, 3) A supplementary work, done to supplement a work done by another author, 4) A compilation, 5) A translation, 6) An atlas, 7) A test, 8) Answer material for a test, 9) An instructional text.

[MuzekEntertainment]

If someone is not your employee, and they perform work off-site, on their own equipment, on their own software, paying for their own electricity, receiving no benefits of any kind whatsoever from your company, and said work results in the creation of intellectual properties, then for those properties to even be ELIGIBLE to be considered work-for-hire they MUST fall into one of the following NINE (and ONLY nine) categories, as enumerated clearly in copyright law.

[PeterMcCleanMMA]

Slavery was outlawed in this country long ago even IF these people were on-site employees, their employer would not get any rights to their works if they were not at least paying them the federally established minimum hourly wage, right? RIGHT. So why on earth, when these artists are NOT employees, and they are NOT being fairly paid, would these "crowdsourcing" companies who advocate spec work possibly think for a moment that they could own (or transfer the right to own) these artists works?

[PeterMcCleanMMA]

These contests fall into NONE of these categories, so what these companies are REALLY doing here is ripping off young designers fresh out of school who are too green to know their rights, skirting both labor and copyright laws, and attempting to steal intellectual property from others.

[PeterMcCleanMMA]

First of all, they state that, After the prize is paid in full, the ownership lies with the contest holder which is royalty-free and irrevocable., which is absolutely LUDICROUS!!! There are ONLY 9 categories (as enumerated clearly in copyright law) by which works can even be considered eligible to be work-for-hire.

[PeterMcCleanMMA]

WOW - you are all SO ignorant!! Without a proper judging panel, proper contest rules, nor proper alternate means of entry, which EVERY real contest must have in order to even be LEGAL in this country, these design contests are not really contests at all, merely underhanded attempts to rip off naive artists. What companies like 99Designs and crowdSPRING are doing is not only illegal in the USA, it is highly unethical as well.

[YoussefS]

SXSW 2009 contacted me to do spec work for motion graphics work, It was a 'title sequence' for this years SXSW Show, this show you are watching right now. Let it be noted that I did not pursue this.

[godonholiday]

Top athletes dont hate on young people for trying to win their local sports event. These "top" designers need to keep some perspective, talking about "black listing" someone for putting themselves forward is outrageous!

It is not like the client doesn't know what they are paying for. They are in business and there is no reason they would not apply their business reasoning to the design process.

Often, designers get the clients they deserve... and clients, they get the designers they deserve.

[stickergiant]

After this panel I had a small design project in house and tried a crowdspring design project for fun. The results were a source of amusement, we won't be repeating it.

[frankjuval]

Sites like that make no sense, especially to the designer.

Say you put in hundreds of hours of work on all sorts of projects just because you want to win a client. You finally do and get paid $1k, or even $2k but it still doesn't cover the cost you put in for all that time you spent working on ideas and/or designs. It's total BS.

What I want to know is, who has time to do all this free work?

[cosmicbdog]

an 18 year old fella in Bangladesh who lives in a house with 8 family members, his grandma and grandpa and $1k goes along way. Getting that job to some people is like winning the lottery. It makes a lot of sense to some people.

[sketchmark]

The charges of the elite being scared to compete are rubbish.. It's actually the amateurs who are scared to compete with the pros because if they weren't they'd form companies and demand a living wage for their work in a competitive marketplace. This noobie fear is preyed upon by people who profit from setting up competition between them for scraps. This false market place -subsidized by the waitering jobs that these "young designers" actually do for a living is then used to challenge the pros

[sketchmark]

So the issue is: Who profits from an ignorant set of consumers. Who profits from a plethora of mediocrity? and its general acceptance? Large organizations that can employ economies of scale to produce mediocrity economically and efficiently. That's who. So this is a battle between those who want to make a living as artisans and those who want to manage cheap labor. The cheap labor is willing to support those who will actually profit from their work because they need entre into the market place

[sketchmark]

The real crux of the matter is this: Occassionally spec work will actually be good design, but more often the best spec work will only look like good design, and foolish customers will come to think that it *is* good design. That is the danger to the craft- that customers will be miseducated and won't know what quality looks like. Ignorant consumers think that a lot of dumbed down music and movies are high quality. Quality artists in those realms now have a market shaped by mediocrity.

[KateTallent2867]

At issue are the means in which people support themselves. If designers give away services every profession should gives away services for free as well. Let's see how that flies... I better get back to work now so I can finish the design project I am getting paid for before I lose the job to someone who will do it for free... ;)

[alangdell]

If the work is so bad, why feel threatened? Are there amateurs doing work? Sure. Let them. Is it design in a vacuum? Not really. Design comes from life, experience and vision. Of course there is a bunch of bad work out there. Guess what? Real design agencies have been doing bad work for decades. Maybe the professional community needs to view these community driven sites as a breeding ground as opposed to a final solution. Spec work? It's a bitch and unfair. So don't do it if you don't want to.

[KateTallent2867]

If all of us value what we do, respect it and insist on getting paid for our services at fair market prices we will get paid. When those of us decide to work for free, or what amounts to slave wages, we set precedents for more exploitation. Samson is not important, what is important is that designers as a whole do not allow themselves to be exploited. If we stand together and insist on being paid we will. I have often thought designers need a union...

[Down10]

Mike Samson comes across like a sleaze who paints his spec work site as a global community coming together to share a bounty of ideas, when it's really the Wal-Mart of graphic design — cheap buyers who don't appreciate unique design lining up to score free work (or just free ideas) from dilettantes who just crank out logos without consideration for how the design should work, and wrecking the income of professional designers in the process. (cont'd)

[Down10]

In an fair market, operations like these would crash and burn once the core of real talent decides they are being exploited and leaves, sending the sites' reputation for quality (if any) into the toilet. The use of the Web unfortunately keeps these sites afloat and kills opportunities for advancement and growth in the field of design.

[BobInAmerica]

Ok the overall fundamental problem i see here is the corporations don't see the value of spending money on a designer. They just don't see it as a valuable service until they have that game changing moment. Spec is here to say however i would also like to say that the companies that are getting spec work will not be in business very long...Sure some big corps are going to do it just for fun but they will never put a $300 million marketing campaign up for spec.

[katetallent]

I say never work for free, for anyone, ever. Who does free work in any profession? I employ an intern and I pay him and would never think to ask him to work for free, to do so would be unethical. I do this despite his not having completed his degree and lack of experience because it is the right thing to do. Design is not a hobby, it is a business.

[kmb1794]

I think the economy will make the decision as always, it's supply and demand. If you aren't good enough to keep clients, you won't have work. If you're good but people can't afford you, you won't have work. If you're better than everybody else people will pay for higher quality. I think this is a good panel and a great discussion.

[katetallent]

I never would think to ask my dentist to do spec work on a crown on my tooth, nor my lawyer on legal questions, nor my accountant on my taxes and why would I? I value and respect what they do the same way I value the profession of design.

[Aseef26]

I have tried to be ethical while at the same time accomplishing the best possible outcome (most profitable) for our enterprise. While I lost nothing on quality either way, a talented user chose not to involve hirself again on my second posting-- see, free market. It flows both ways...

[Aseef26]

There was one other user who took the preliminary project seriously, following up on feedback etc, and while I PM'd hir to participate in the following project, s/he decided against submitting an entry.

The onus to be ethical is on the buyer, and that is not something cS can mandate or enforce.

[Aseef26]

In both cases I made a personal recommendation to select brandY based on dedication as well as quality.

Many users submit a design that they come up with in minutes, and hope to win an award. I don't feel an ethical obligation to these designers... and I don't know that I should be guilt-ed over for making that judgment.

[Aseef26]

Perhaps I can use an example to cool off the argument here. I don't think the system of cS needs to be modified- or that it even could be changed with any amount of effectiveness.

I recently posted a couple projects and had a great response on my first and a timid response on the other. In both cases I found exceptional work. In both projects I was pleased with effort and research of a particular user we'll call "brandY."

[3shiftgtr]

Please....good work is good work, either by a noob or a 15 year pro. The issue is protection....

[Aseef26]

If you bother to watch the whole discussion you'll see that there are numerous "filler" points advertised by the pro-design side. Arguments contending that there is a substantial difference in quality of work presented on cS and from a professional designer. Claims that simply cannot be backed up as there is obviously some amazing work being channeled between buyers and sellers on cS

[3shiftgtr]

Aseef26-I watched the whole thing....blah blah blah....after 25 years in the business, good work is still good work. The question should have been "Does spec make you work harder and move the way you do business forward, or does it make you whine?" The anti spec arguments boil down to territorial pissings. The "Pro designers have nuances in approach" arguement.....puhleeze. Good work is good work, and that is all we ever need to talk about. Scardey-cats.

[Aseef26]

Thanks for clarifying. Nice post 3shiftgtr!

[soulessshoe]

they seem to be talking about crowdsourcing mostly instead of NO!Spec, seems to start at 8:20

[edwsshaw1]

I can understand why web designers would like to be authorized a territorial claim on certain functional requirements of the net; maybe we have arrived there. Still, there is a lot more to building a successful site than what designers do. Why not follow the traditional model of "professional association" dedicated to fairness, ethics, and quality, maybe causing

clients to choose association members because it makes good sense to?

[DesignerSpencer]

"Bottom line: Competition is always a good thing. "

Sure. But pay your suppliers. That's the sticking point that you, and other 'buyers' seem to have a problem understanding. When 70 designers supply YOUR company with their time and efforts, after you've "demanded reseach & strategy" from your "creatives", only one gets paid.

Only someone severely lacking in ethics expects their fellow man to work for nothing. On sites like Crowdspring, a lack of ethics doesn't appear to be lacking.

[Aseef26]

But the designers that fuel the site have the same opportunity to frequent it as the buyer. The risk/reward situation is presented clearly, and each of us retains the option to choose voluntarily to involve themselves in projects.

When you go for a job interview, you should spend a couple hours researching and tailoring your Resume. Is every employer expected to hire you b/c you "put the effort in?" Does every student in school get an "A" for effort? That just isn't the way the world works...

[Aseef26]

Listen, I'm a phil major so please don't be presumptuous about what I do and do not understand.

The ethical context you're referencing stretches well beyond this particular industry- and that's not a point I'll disagree with. Our economic system is setup to encourage profit; Capitalism with sporadic (mild) intervention from a governing hand.

[kmb1794]

What do you say about people who were never trained to be designers but due 2 accessibility of sw & pc gizmos are now able to explore a new hobby? Design is something that I take an active interest in & wouldn't mind competing with others for feedback or a chance of winning since design is not my bread-and-butter. I won't feel a particular opportunity cost loss when competing now since I might just be watching TV anyway...I haven't every competed my work on cS or a like site - FYI

[Aseef26]

There are plenty of comparables to be referenced here; for instance let's look at Investment banking. When consumers began trading stocks online, stock brokers complained that it would ruin the industry as well. While many consumers did make mistakes and lost a lot of money, the industry as a whole benefited, and stock brokers who were only doing marginally, or not even as well as the Average Joe, were forced out.

Bottom line: Competition is always a good thing.

[Aseef26]

I would counter that the project feedback tools as well as the tools provided in the proofing stage give me every opportunity to encourage, and in some cases to demand, research and strategy work from my creatives.

Design is about creativity and innovation, and the best designers combine their creative vision with a sound economic foundation to parlay real results.

[Aseef26]

The interesting conversation piece in this debate is about democratizing the industry. I find it difficult to take those designers (and agencies) seriously- who continue to cry foul over healthy competition. Lydia, in her pitch, suggested that problem solving and consulting aspects of project work are neglected via spec work on sites like cS.

[Aseef26]

The point made about receiving low quality work runs both ways. It should be noted that there are also buyers who have received a poor quality product after having pursued, and over-paid for pursuing, the esteemed professional route. With the current availability and height of software, quality of work may not be light years apart between amateurs/pros.

[Aseef26]

The matter is complicated by 1) software availability and 2) flexibility of the internet, that in combination, have made designing, branding, and marketing easier and more accessible---- leveling the playing field like never before. Some of the best designers in the World are not degree holders; merely artists with vision.

[Aseef26]

Projects are posted with expectations. If an entry is not up to par it will often receive feedback. If a project does not meet with 25 submissions, we, as the project poster, are not obligated to select a winner. If I know what I'm looking for, I shouldn't have too many difficulties deriving quality content from the site.

[Aseef26]

There seems to be a globally diverse range of experience available on the site, and a free marketplace should never be averse to competition. If the cost of running projects on cS outweighs the benefit- we will stop using the site.

[davidlonestar11]

"Pofessional" designers saying spec work on sites like crowdspring are creating below avg work begs one big question. Why not join these sites and provide the quality work they insist they create?

They say relationship drives great design. These spec sites do work for this type of relationship. Ask the buyer the right questions, listen to what they say, show work and make adjustments based on feedback....these can all be done on crowdspring.

Designers just need to learn to adapt.

[DesignerSpencer]

"Why not join these sites and provide the quality work they insist they create?"

Ahm, cause professional designers expect to get paid. Sites like Crowdspring offer very little chance of EVER getting paid, let alone making a living wage.

"Designers just need to learn to adapt"

Designers need to adapt to what? Not getting paid for their time, efforts and talent. Yeah, good luck with that.

[sayd2m]

Spec work is neither good or evil. It's the motive behind. Too often it's the buyer trying to get the cheapest price and is not considering the value added of a relationship. A good designer needs to understand the client in order to do their best work. I don't think the current model of spec work is a sustainable model as it does nothing to build relationships. It's oxymoronic to talk about "creative community" when these models destroys relationships and therefore community.

[marc58english]

this jeffrey guy is clueless. grey area? he's clueless. Owyang saying "it is here to stay" is correct, but that's because it's always been there. his "I don't think it's an ethical question" is plain wrong, in spite of samson's "community". regarding the profession, i can liken it to Child Abuse: those with power are abusing those who have none, and setting in motion bad business practices what will scar the budding professional for life. lowest common denominator means less-than-average work.

[idefineny]

Thank you Carson... I appreciate your intelligence... spec work is stupid honestly... it's a cheap way out... that is all it is... nothing more...

[toddhead]

exploit

verb |ikˈsploit| [ trans. ]

make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource) : 500 companies sprang up to exploit this new technology.

• use (a situation or person) in an unfair or selfish way : the company was exploiting a legal loophole | accusations that he exploited a wealthy patient.

• benefit unfairly from the work of (someone), typically by overworking or underpaying them : making money does not always mean exploiting others.

[frak126]

While I'd love to agree that Spec work is wrong, the designer does not have the position to choose. If the company decided to go for spec work, then a designer working for company XYZ has no right to barge in his opinion to the company.

I'm glad that designers worry about this, but it will always be the businesses choice of what they want to accept and the methods of doing so. If you choose not to accept, you don't have to, and vice versa.

Though, spec can be good for young designers.

[frak126]

Clarification of first paragraph:

...the designers does not have the position to tell another company about their ideals....then a designer working for another company, XYZ, has no right to barge in his opinion onto the other company...

[yourcreditcheck]

As a graphic designer, I am strongly against spec work and design contests.

I think if you simply put this in perspective and ask yourself, would you want a doctor operating on you who went to medical school with a PhD, or would like to have Johnny Cutcorners who woke up today and thought he'd be a good surgeon to do it.

Like with any professional service, it takes time, education, and hard work to do what you do well. Design is no exception. Spec work defaces and cheapens the industry.

[gotlogg]

LOL... it hurts to figure out your not that special... Luckily for doctors they are that special and wont be faced with this problem

[OurBackToTheDark]

@gotlogg Actually, many designers are extremely special. What' bad is that the amount of bad design out there dilutes the quality. The fact remains however, good design makes money and makes a difference.

[gotlogg]

A) I agree designers can be very special I was simply referring to the doctor and surgery comment which is an egotistical comparison to make.

B) I too am a professional and layman once and a while undercut and steel business in my industry. However, the poor work that they do only makes me more valuable. I am not afraid of it at all.

C) Those who fear design contests and spec work are those who are not confident that they can stand out as "special". Too bad for them because it's not changing.

[aeonjoey]

@OurBackToTheDark if only that were true. (looks at crowdsourced GAP and JC Penny logos)

[aeonjoey]

@gotlogg botox parties = spec work

[aeonjoey]

@yourcreditcheck great analogy