When Ireland Starved Episode 2 The Irish Holocaust (Part 1 of 3)

[TheYoungshyne]

soon there going to kill innocent Muslim people and the media is going to play a big part , then a couple years after they make a movie about it .. there going to kill another group of people. THAT IS HOW THE WORLD WORKS

[shadowkitty56]

@ChaosDynamics and the seats in the House of Lords (hereditary and Protestant) remained unchanged. Not the best representation for your starving Galway farmer.

And as for religious freedom, how is it freedom when one must pay tithe and tax to a church one does not attend....or get evicted for not sending their child to the Protestant school?

[shadowkitty56]

@ChaosDynamics or fish: over time, the ability to do both was lost as the plots of land got tinier and tinier and the rivers and lakes fell under the jurisdicition of the Lords, not to mention their bounty. The deck was stacked after generations of neglect and outright degredation.

Emancipation, though a nice thought, allowed Catholics to vote and sit in Parliament, but it was notable that only the rare rich Catholic landowner got elected MP (CONT)

[shadowkitty56]

@ChaosDynamics it was almost impossible to train as a physician (most school lessons included one's catechism, and the Church of Ireland used the Book of Common Prayer as a means of instruction and indoctrination in a creed unwelcome by Catholic parents.)

The total sum of these punitivie measures created a population that was illiterate, impoverished, and relegated to an underclass. It was so bad that the Catholic Irish had largely forgotten how to farm (CONT)

[shadowkitty56]

@ChaosDynamics 80% of Ireland was Catholic in those years. The other 20% came from Quakers, Church of Ireland, and Presbyterians. Prior to emancipation the Ascendancy held all the cards. No educating your children. A whole mess of red tape involving property rights-eventually you and your neighbors would lose whatever you had over a few generations. No voting rights. No admission to the bar or the bench. With Catholic teachers banned from teaching (and no Catholics desiring to convert) CONT

[shadowkitty56]

@ChaosDynamics His London overlords looked down upon him as vermin; the use of the phrase taig is recorded as early as the 1770s. The Irish were never lazy. They scrambled just to survive in Ireland and as immigrants they built up Boston and New York and eventually the prospered handsomely. The Somalis that make it to America today are also doing quite well, growing their vegetable gardens and sending their kids to school. All they need, like the Irish, is a chance to grow.

[shadowkitty56]

@ChaosDynamics The Irish had the sad misfortune of being Catholic and on the losing side of the Williamite Wars. From thence onward, the fabric of the society unraveled: no legal freedom, no voting priveleges. No economic freedom, no choice in trade. Education of the young was restricted, literacy dropped and written Irish all but disappeared. Religious freedom was limited-the Catholic farmer still had to pay a tithe to the Church of Ireland and its bishop even if he never set foot there.

[shadowkitty56]

@ChaosDynamics You are joking, right? Please tell me you are writing this just to be a troll.

But just in case...

First off, the Irish were Catholics living under a Protestant crown. Normally, this would be no problem, but given the tangled history of Britain with the Catholic Church (the Stuarts=disaster, the Guy Fawkes incident, the deep mistrust of the Pope going back to the Tudors, etc.) these were not a likely cast of characters to show mercy or tolerance. CONT

[gaffneyal]

The irish were very hardworking people. I take strong offense to those who call them lazy. You should do your research better if you want to call names and make accusations

[marsi1952]

Chaos person, I had to read your comment 3 times, I could not believe that someone would say 1.5 mill Irish died because of being LAZY?? how about the 5K Irish that fled to America? gez that is Rep/TEA PARTY nonsense talking. Were the Jews LAZY TOO? how about the Black Slavery & Irish Slavery? maybe you should go to Somalia LIVE see a genocide going on, to see what it is like. Get out of the DARK. go to: " invisible children".. then Look in the mirror, make a change. Stop thinking like that.

[marsi1952]

@ChaosDynamics

gezzz, what are you saying, I MILLION irish people died because they were all LAZY... maybe 100

and I'll even give you maybe 1,000 were lazy, BUT A MILLION...you must be a republican, that is trying to convince the people that the millions losing their homes was because they made decisions on buying their homes and couldn't afford it. You are a MORON...and should be destroyed...

[SINKNINE]

Ireland, home to half a million unemployed skint Micks!

[XxxSaraxxX2k8bby]

And ye wonder why,we, the Irish are bitter Ha!

[beghavd]

- grain and cattle that would have fed 8 million people was taken out of the country at gun point....

[beghavd]

-irish holocaust. (page 5)

[andinoble]

@ChaosDynamics So many Irish starved in comparison to others in Europe because the land was owned by either English or Irish gentry wanting to be accepted by the Anglo-Irish aristocracy.Ireland still proceeded to export a lot of grain and produce,more than enough to feed everyone.But the majority were Irish speaking peasants so were seen either as a)a Catholic threat,b)a second class people despite Irish/Ireland having a longer and greater linguistic history than anything but Greek and Roman.

[shadowkitty56]

@andinoble That, and the British response to the famine wasn't adequate. The Victorian response to poverty was often the workhouse: a bad idea in Britain, a cruel one in Ireland (typhus epidemics would have skyrocketed.) America sent maize in large shipments for famine relief, but none of the British lords made any attempt to explain how to grind the corn into meal or to set it by the fire in a kettle filled with oil (this makes POPCORN.)

[shadowkitty56]

@andinoble They made it a crime for the starving to steal the stores of maize sent from America: this is what the Fields of Athenry refers to. They even held religion over the heads of the starving, "convert to being a Protestant and we'll feed you." -But that was not the cruelest of all.

There are records of hogsheads worth of butter and scores of pigs and cattle fattened for market in London leaving Cobh& Belfast for London.....under armed guard...while Ireland starved to death.

[beinmytrailer]

@ChaosDynamics people get lazy when they realize they don't have a chance. they give up.

[magiclard]

How the **** did my ancestors survive they stayed on the same land which was reclaimd at the top of Lough Corrib (Baille dubh Loch on the mountain side. The famine was up the road in Ballinrobe big time (5 miles) How lucky was that? there is a salmon leap adjacent but thats only once a year. No fruit grows. . answer no famine at that spot? there were no British garrisons and no mass burials so they must have been just lucky....a bit of thievery maybe but that wouldnt last four years.

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard It could be that your ancestors were tenants under a rarity in Ireland at the time: a KIND landlord. To explain, there was a man by the name of George Henry Moore who lived in the area; I know that his land holdings included a lot of land around those lakes (bear in mind that the boundaries between Galway and Mayo were redrawn after the famine and that a lot of land now considered part of Mayo were actually part of Galway back then.) CONT

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard He did something few landlords at the time dared to try: he bet on his own horses at a race and made, in today's money, about 30 million dollars. Legend has it that nobody starved or died on his lands during the famine and there is reason to believe he gave his tenants some aid during the whole fiasco. In other parts of Mayo and N Galway, mortality was about 85%, namely because the landlords didn't give a shit. They wanted to deleverage as fast as they could.

[shadowkitty56]

Other than that, don't count too much on the salmon run being a form of sustenance: I have a hunch that tenants weren't allowed, for ex, to fish in Lough Mask for brown trout until my great grandpa was a tot c. 1898. A landlord would own everything on his land including the lakes. To hell with the starving, broken people living hand to mouth-his lordship needed to entertain himself!

[magiclard]

@shadowkitty56 Hi Kitty and thanks for your reply that was really useful. What is really wierd is that I bought the bigraphy of George Moore written by his son (who I believe was a leading light i9n the citizen army a Colonel Moore) for a mere couple of quid in the Oxfam shop. They were so lucky to have someone like him around. He also bought people cows and was was deeply unpopular with the British establishment despite starting out as an anti repealer. By their works shall ye know them.

[magiclard]

@magiclard I bought the book because of the title ''An Irish gentleman'' and then as a bonus I saw mention of Ballinrobe as I flicked through and I thought here goes. after you told me about him I started reading it. The land which my family is on is ''bad land'' It wasnt until the 1950s that rocks were blasted out of it and other families resettled in West Meath. I have no idea who the landowner was but maybe George Moore or Lord Sligo. He was also good for the area it was told

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard Yeah, I know. I think it is very possible that my family line exists because of that man's goodness, or at least by some miracle if it wasn't him: my whole family line is from Derrypark, Tourmakeady. I don't know much about what went down during the famine, but I am sure that nobody from that side of the family would have survived long without aid: every last one of them, going over old pictures, was reedy and had fast metabolisms.

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard I also happen to know that there WAS a garrison of British soldiers down the road from where great granny grew up, so I guess that even if there wasn't anybody there during the famine, there sure as hell was somebody home around, say, 1915. Right now that site is a ruin, but my granny lived to be very old.

CONTINUE

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard Even as an old woman her blue eyes turned to ice at the mention of English soldiers & she used to tell us all about how they used to steal food from the table & how abusive they were. (It was one of the reasons her father sent her away to New York in time: in New York was safety and jobs.) She had no love for the lords of the land, least of all the last of them...and kept that memory alive until the early 90's when she passed away.

[magiclard]

@shadowkitty56 Have you read George Moore biography Kitty? If you have been to Derrypark you will know that my family are over the back of Mount Gable about a mile from Corr na Mona (in between Clonbur and Maam) I dont know much about a garrison in the area but the whole area was a hotbed of republicanism in 1920. A book has been written about the ''battle of Tourmakeady'' and my Granddad took part in that. There was more information Also the Maamtrasna Murders was written by Corr na Monas man

[magiclard]

@magiclard and local preist Jarlath Waldron from Corr na Mona. There were several battles and incidents which have been written down by people on both sides of tyhe conflict. My Granddad was tied up and shot at by the Tans for two hours. The Maam post office would only speak Irish and you would have to fetch a translator if you didnt! I have to look closer at this side of Lough Mask because so much went on. My family are Caseys (O'Cathasaigh)

[magiclard]

@magiclard Its funny but having lived in Clonbur I didnt go down Derrypark side. Geo Moore organised the building of a monastery at Derrypark I wonder if it is still there.

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard Both my great-grandparents were native speakers of Irish but unfortunately in America they didn't have many people to speak it to (it's chief use was when they were trying to hide Christmas gifts from their children, which sometimes backfired: my grandmother and her sibs, though they didn't come out of that house speaking the language, could understand bits of it, especially the words for "in the car" ;)

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard My family names, through them are Lydon (Ó Loideáin) and Prendergast (de Priondárgas.)  I know, I know, the two most common names in creation when talking of that part of the world, but it is true. I am also sure I have a few distant relatives still alive and well in Derrypark as my grandma and her sister used to write to their cousins from time to time & I know of one that owns a sheep farm there. (My aunt visited it a few years ago.)

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard They had no intention of staying in America but unfortunately life got in the way. The story with my great-granny is that she was sent away by her father across the sea where she'd be safe and sound, and able to earn money (a neighbor had a relative in Brooklyn that ran a boarding house, and they needed a cook/maid.) She got off the boat and within a few years she fell head over heels for the boss's brother. He was older than her by about nine years, (CONT)

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard and he'd had a rougher life than she did: before he was in America he had to go to England to earn money for his family. He was fourteen years old the last time he saw his mother alive, because by the time he was that age he was physically big enough to do a man's work on the docks or in the fields. By the time he was a man, his dad had passed away, and one of his sisters had already left for America. He decided to follow her as he was not the oldest (CONT)

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard he couldn't inherit the farm-that was an older brother's privelege. That, and I doubt that being conscripted into service for WW1 appealed to him...so he decided to earn enough money on the docks to get himself and a sister on the boat and lay low until the whole thing blew over. He decided to stay because he was earning a lot more in America than he would in England and the NINA attitude was much less in Brooklyn. That, and oh, by 1922 (CONT)

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard the Irish Civil War was on, the business he shared with his siblings was doing well, and this brown haired thing with knobby knees, not quite 21, kept refusing to dance with him and annoying him...so he married her and settled down.

His brothers went back, though, and over the years kept coming back because they needed the money. I don't know if any went back to fight, but I do know that it was tough to make a living there even if they did.

[shadowkitty56]

@magiclard Oh, and PS-Haven't read the son's bio of Moore, but I have read his name in other books and I have seen what his son looked like-the man was a writer and a friend of Manet's (of interest to me because it was part of my training as a computer artist.) A while back I saw this painting of the younger Moore and through him learned about his father...and got the shock of a lifetime.

[Boru00l]

ok,,,,,,,,, who the fuck ate all the spuds !