I fucking HATE that stupid woman!!!! in fact I hate everyone that treats their horse that way! It does nothing for the animal but forcing it into submisson
its sad because other riders see her riding like that and think well if she is doing it I can get away with doing it too. Horrible, Im losing faith in judges and FEI for not taking care of this issue. Lots of money and competitions shouldn't be in front of the horses welfare ever.
i bet that with these horses that are made to hold their heads in this position for so long, that if you let them stretch their neck out long and low, it would crack so loud!
Pulling is ectually harder when you lower your hands(basic biomechanics). By lowering your hands, you allow the horse to go lower as well, wich is what you want in this excersize. It doesnt relax the muscels, it is not supposed to. It stretches them, hence the name Hyperflexion. Relaxation must be acieved before starting (and sustained during) hyperflexion. FEI wisely supports nor is against rollkur untill further research is completed (statements can be found in their archieve)
First of all why dont you opponents of "rollkur" get of the computer and go prove your worth on the back of a horse. Shes producing results, and they're pretty damn good. Second of all enough with the rollkur bit, rollkur is a german word for spa treatment. Use something applicable.
If I smack you with a whip, I am sure I could get you to dance like a chicken 4 hours straight. Your argument proves nothing. I do not know myself if this is bad for the horse physically and mentally, but I am very sure that it looks rubbish. And knowing that it can be done "wrong" so easily by other riders out there looking on these riders as their idols, it's for the benefit of all the horses out there that they stop instead of being selfish and just wanting to win win win.
So let's not put any responsibilty in the hands of those whom ride rollkur wrong. Let's put it in the hands of those whom (possibly) do it right. That doesn't make sense, does it?
Effects of abusive rollkur can be easily spotted (as described by Hueschsmann). Showjudges should simply not let them progress through levels (a system that doesnt exist in the USA unfortunately). That would solve that problem, wouldn't it?
Wherther it looks like rubbish or not, is debatable, bc it is an opinion.
become, policing every movement, frame by frame? Obviously NO ONE, not even Edward and Totilas, are ever going to be text book perfect. And how do you mark riders at the lower levels that are obviously on the wrong path but who are doing it mostly under their own steam without discouraging them? The world gets too PC! haha. Something needs to be done, maybe just whack the judges at the top who mark lateral walks and piaffes that weave with 8's and 9's a clip around the ear lol
I trust whatever direction sientific evidence points me in, as everyone should.
It isnt fair to accuse anky of abuse, when the accusation is based on speculation. You wouldnt convict an innocent criminal, just cuz it looks like he did it, now would you?
Especially cause studies show rollkur is far from allways painfull or bad, even in the long run. You can find papers of these studies in scientific bookstores. Or, you could read my other comments...
Have you ever heard of Gerd Heuschmann? He is a German vet who wrote a book (Tug of War) and also published a DVD (If Horses could speak). Both made him really popular here in Germany.
He looks at a horse's anatomy and shows which methods/movements do horses good and which cause harm.
Maybe you should take a look there and not continue with your comments until you're finished...
Yes, the reson the FEI didn't adopt his beliefs, was bc his studies were done on horses with an incorrect rollkur. This means they use different muscles than horses with an correct rollkur, and the outcome of this study was insufficient.
Maybe you should get a degree in chemical bio (study chemical and hormonal pocesses in mammals), then work for the FEI for 3 years, and not comment untill you're finished.
srry for the rudeness, but you could have known this if you would've read my comments
Hi, Please confirm if you have a degree in chemical bio and worked for the FEI for 3 years and what sort of grades you got with your degree and what position you held at the FEI? And even this does not qualify you to be an expert on whether riding horses like this is correct or not.
As everything in life we have to gather what info there is an judge for ourselves, we do not have to be experts to comment as you have proven in your case... as you are commenting.
I think that was part of the point of Dr. Gs study was the effects on horses trained using a incorrect hyperflexion, because hyperflexion is not just limited to Anky, Isabelle, Gal etc. If these riders have figured out a way to do this without gradually destroying a horse, which I still dispute-Gribaldi-then perhaps they should encourage open sharing of information with regards of how to actually use it because people will copy regardless of whether or not they actually know how to use..
The technique. Classical riding is taught everywhere and can be easily accessed if one wishes, even here in little ol NZ. But to find someone who can actually teach you how to properly use hyperflexion is another story and so many people, such as our beloved jaccko, with nothing more than vids in a foreign language and books, copies AVGs techniques under the impression they will improve their horses flexibility and performances and unwittingly ruins them instead. THAT is my main gripe with..
hyperflexion. Well that and the result of it being horses that dont use their hind ends, dont sit, often cant walk, sometimes are even lame, more often than not BTV and are all front end flash. I would quite like to know your opinion on that one and once again have an enlightening discussion with regards to this subject. Because I believe we can both agree that AVG etc is not the only issue, and possibly not even the main issue, with hyperflexion.
Rollkur/hyperflexion can be very dangerous. Maybe it should be banned, not bc so many use it the wrong way. But, I personally love the result when it's done correctly AND painless (which can be done as studies show). Honestly, I don't know.. The only thing I have a problem with is people/anky being accused of abuse, without being a 100% or even 90% sure. Her horses would have to be thoroughly monitored over a period of time.. which she wont do...
I think there certainly will be riders who use it regardless. Making something illegal generally makes it more desireable for some and I imagine especially for those who find the results it produces to be fantastic. I dont particularly like the result at all when its done correctly, as such, Im still one for a Grand Prix dressage horse who can actually it and use his hindquarters in a correct frame-ie poll highest point, not BTV etc-as it is stipulated by the FEI to be the so called..
Now I would love to be the one to monitor Salinero :) that would boost my career wouldnt it haha. I guess, it's gonna remain a subject of controversy. I'm all for openness, and as ive said before, we need to do a lot more investigating before we can really make a decision: explore and perfect rollkur, or ban it all together to avoid problems. BUT there will be riders who won't stop even if it;s banned. What do you think, crazy doll?
rules. If they want these horses to win then they need to change the rules to disregard the the guidelines for what is a correctly going, collected dressage horse...anyhow...I think there is more than enough proof to be able to say hyperflexion is indeed very damaging to
most hoses sunjected to it-I imagine most who are arent ridden by Anky haha-and the FEI needs to do more than say they disapprove. I watched young horses ridden in draw reins with a whip on each side to hit it every stride..
I studied at the university of Utrecht. They also have a great vet departement where many studies on horses are done also. They are known as one of the best vet uni's in Europe, if not the world. You should look it up, they give amazing tours and everything.
The studies we did were done on horses especially bred for this purpose. We wanted to make sure they had the genetic qualities a horse needs to preform a correct rollkur, as well as correct trainig through out their life.
They're 5 and 6 years old now, and so far we've focused on werther rollkur is painfull now. We'll have to see what it does in the long run, it's gonna take a few years. Several riders were used, they were thaught how to ride rollkur. This has been done around the world; a total of 84, of which 7 in the Netherlands and 31 in the US. 67 horses were OK.
Now the documentary about this is due to be shown in January.
But it may be delayed since the FEI has assigned another team to check our work.
Thats rather interesting. I look forward to seeing the doco, if they're going to show it here, which I hope they will. Might even be worth recording haha
haha kittens are great. we have a tendancy to rescue ours off our parents farm...poor wee blighters. they are super cute though, dont take long to tame and are especially cool in pairs, because then they play together :)
to remind them to bring the respective hind leg through while their noses were on their chests at a large and very well known stable in Germany and I wondered, if that kind of stuff happens there, with all these gadgets and whips and constant hitting, how do the amatures use it? But hyperflexion is a bit pointless anyway, IMHO. I think there are better ways to stretch a horse. When you did your study, on whose horses did you do it? Just out of interest.
What do you think of the idea of training judges to spot the effects of abusive rollkur, and not letting those riders progess through levels, instead of abolishing it all together? Holland (NL) allready has such a system, the USA unfortunately not. I thought that was strange when I was competing there myself a few years back. Open entrance in any level you want leaves room for cutting corners. In NL(and other EU countries) progress is carefully monitored by professionals.
I think it's a good idea, although almost pointless as yet here in NZ anyway. But the thing with rollkur and with bad riding in general, or riding with hard hands (essentially hyperflexion without realizing, not actually used as a training tool just because the riders doesn't really know what they're doing) creates much the same picture-trailing quarters, a dip infront of the wither, the over quoted "break at the 3rd vetebrae in the neck" and in the horses more naturally adept to such movement..
an over active forehand without actually taking any weight behind. Oh and lets not forget the too-often-seen lateral walk, dipping behind or remaining behind the vertical in tests and a four beat canter etc etc...anyhow. These are all faults already described by the FEI and faults they state should be penalized, yet many don't. Perhaps, instead of training people to see what they should already see or do see but ignore for the sake of flashy movement they should come up with some kind of system
that penalizes/downgrades or something like that, those who openly reward such a display. Make it an incentive to reward a correctly going horse. Maybe something akin to the video referee in rugby (you might have to research that one lol) may need to be emplyed to detect such things if it doesn't seem visible to the naked eye although in most cases its glaringly obvious. But then it gets to the point where you have to say where do you draw the line? How political are we going to allow it to..
heya. have you seen the video from the latest world cup qualifier of the stallion scandic? at one point his tongue is flopping out the side of his mouth and it is quite a distinct colour blue. I figure there must be a reason firstly for his behaviour and secondly for the colour of his tongue. He was shown in the vid worked in extreme hyperflexion for over 10 minutes and according to witnesses was worked in this position for about 2 hours. Im interested to know your thoughts on this and perhaps..
even your understanding of the reasoning behind working a horse that is supposed to be trained to take weight behind, working him so deep and on the forehand for so long. Your probably aware that his rider is trained by sjef. Also, what are your thoughts on his paces? In my opinion from what I can see of his canter it is all but ruined and his trot is that pseudo passage/trot that I was always told to NOT allow the horse to do as it was an evasion-he wasnt really using himself and was tensing.
Do you think this is a correct hyperflexion, as trained by someone probably best regarded as one of the foremost experts on the subject? And last but not least what do you think of the extended use of it-up to 10 mins as shown in the vid-when in the forum in 2006 it was described as only ever being used for about 20 seconds or so as a suppling exercise? What i the purpose of using it for so long? As always, Im interested to learn :) thanks
Srry, was on a businesstrip in the US these past three weeks. Some students came up with a new technique for measuring muscle activity. very cool!
Err.. 2 hours aye? That's quite long.. The only explenation I can give is that that horse must be extremely good at rollkur... Cuz if he isn't... well...
Anyway, we can't know for sure. I wish these guys would have their horses examined... We can't make them though...
It would be nice, wouldnt it. I always think that if one cant be entirely open about something, perhaps they have something to hide...but youd never know. Human nature, I guess. but yea, 2 hours. I dont understand the reason behind ballistic stretching for two hours. And for dressage to do so in that position would be pointless. Yes/no?
Wow I had a hard time watching that.....I simply dont understand why anyone would even WANT to use a technique that could even be CONSIDERED cruel when the classical way is and always will be correct!! All I know is that I love horses and while I love the sport and all that, it truely comes down to the joy of teaching a horse to WANT to be a great athlete for you and not having to force anything on them!
bc the sport is changing, like any other sport out there. Read my tother comments, youll find out a correct rollkur has nothing to do with forcing, and the horse must never be hurt.
I have seen studies that show that hyperflexion does in fact cause pain to the horse's neck and back. And once again..... how has the sport changed so that it requieres this new training method?
Like I said in my first comment, if there is even a chance of something being very bad for your horse I really dont see why you would even want to do it. Does a "correct" rollkur have benefits way beyond the classical methods?
If you'd think you were hurting your horse, you woulnd't use it. It is the responsibility of the rider. Just like using a whip, spurs or extra reigns. Even bits or saddles can be used ubusively in order to reach a certain goal.
The gain is what they call 'swing'. Werther it is better than the classical style is a matter of opinion.
Well if youre not sure, it's better not to use it. It takes a very experienced rider to do it right. Only very few horses can do it anyway. It takes specific breeding and training.
"Swing" is the what makes ordinary movements more spectaculair. For instance the piaffe. Leggs are pulled up higher and the haunchess swings more because the back is suppler (compare to gymnists). Some say the horses dont move correctly, but I think thats just a matter of taste. Correct is whatever we find beautiful.
Ok. What do you think about the horse's tongues turning blue and even top riders like Anky using the method for hours at a time? I must say I dont agree that correct is whatever we find beautiful. To me, whats correct is what makes the horse happy while reaching to his/her fullest potential.
Why not? The riders who made up Classical principles did it to match their perception of beauty. You define fullest potential by what has been taught to you. But it's all relative. Btw, FEI has different guidelines now than 50 years ago, so the sport changes (to their taste), that's a fact. Plus, rollkur is nothing new, it's been around since the dawn of dressage.
I'm all for innovation, unless the horse is hurt.
Btw, if you realy want to make your horse happy, set it free.
Classical principals where built to train horses and Im sure things have changed over the years but allowing horses with blue tongues and their nose in their chest to enter the dressage ring is a big change that most of the dressage world is not in favor of. I'll admit I dont know much about dressage (only been riding it for 8months) but I do know horses that have LOVED their jobs!
A blue tongue can have a number reasons. In all my years researching rollkur,ive never seen it do that.
As far as a horses love for the sport goes, you don't know that. Animal behabiorists call it the "black box". You can speculate about an animals feelings, but you don't know. You don't know your horse loves dressage. Although it might seem like it, you don't really know. That is why you can't say they don't like rollkur, All you can go with is the scientific facts, really
Well people watching dressage competitions have reported seeing it. And I know we cant read our horse's minds but I truely believe if you have the capacity to to understand your horse and feel what they feel, you can pretty much know what they're thinking yourself just like horses can feel their rider's emotions.
Arg, frustrating. You're completly missing the point I'm trying to make. It's ok to dissagree or agree with rollkur by werther you personally like the result. But some accuse the users of abuse on speculation: how the horse feels (I'm not talking about stress, but werther they like it or not. see: Y-maze test results); bc it looks painful (speculation); bc it is abuse in some cases(insufficient proof). This, I find unfair. And that's what I'm against.
As far as the tongue goes. Blue means a lack of oxygen (reduced bloodflow). This can occur when the tongue gets caught over or between bit's. In the vid, you can Patrik put the tongue back, and it turns pink afterwards (while still riding rollkur). Bc i assume you mean the vid of Patrik Kittel on Scandic. Again: to much speculation going on to accuse him of abuse. Especially since the artaries are not blocked by rollkur, as any study (pro and con) will show you.
It sounds to me like you dont. And no it wont happen to me and Ive never seen it happen to anyone I know either because my barn and other barns I have friends at are all opposed to it.
Here we go again... In all research that "proves" physical pain and limited breathing, rk was reached by extra reigns or other methods (such as yanking). This is stated clearly in every report I have ever read on the subject (pretty much every report out there since that's my job). However, this is not how a correct rk is achieved. It must be achieved from total releaxation after years of correct training and even then, a horse needs an exeptional talent.
Dont think youve done your job properly! Borstel found that horses are more fearful/dangerous to ride. McGreevy found there was visionary/respiratory impairment. Warendorf found calcifications of vertebrae/skull. Psychologically-conflict behaviours arose, also learned helplessness due to overshadowing of stimulus cues (aids) such as simultaneous [and overt] leg/rein pressure. CAMPAIGN TO STOP IT!
if all factors are good, and rk is achieved with a soft hand, the muscles around the throat stay relaxed (as they always should be) and thus not blocking the airway.
In the most recent research, done with correct rk hormonal tests (among others)show there is no physical pain involved. reports of this can be found in scientific bookstores. I personally don't believe it is mental abuse, but I agree, it's debatable. More research is needed.
Since there is evidence it is abuse, and that it is benefitial (because there is, werther you like it or not), should riders be accused of animal abuse? That is a line I believe we should not cross. You wouldn't convict a murderer bc it seems like he's done it. You need hard evidence. And unless those horses in question undergo a series of tests, there will not be any. If animal abuse is really anticipated, FEI could force such testing in court. But to this day, no one has been able to do so
Maybe it doesn't happen at your barn, bc no one rides professional levels, thus no one's using dubble bridels. Chances that the tongue gets stuck is higher with dubble bridles. Tongues get stuck regularly (although not that long!)
But that's not the point. The point is it had nothing to do with the hyperflexion ridden. Yes it was stupid of Patrik not to notice before. yes poor horse, that can't have been fun. Yes it should never have happene.
But it is not due to the way the horse was ridden.
i have ridden with an fei trainer that never had those problems becuase she was from germany and a classical rider. and i never knew we where debating but ok. i honestly am totally over this conversation. u can continue thinkin ur right and im wrong thats fine with me
Dude, the FEI report on this states the same thing! I am an FEI researcher, and I've never seen it happen during the tests we've run. Why is it due to rollkur, huh? You couldn't say, bc it's not. Ask your trainer.
How can you not know we are debating? Do you not know the word?
And why are you over the converstaion? I'm not the one offending anyone!
So ive put up a vid of old fotos, cuz i said youd love to see me ride. I quite enjoyed youre vid as well, very cute horses.
Just dont doubt my love of horses. Just bc we have a different opion doesnt mean you have to get nasty. You can still respect each others arguments (even tho you didnt have many).
I really dont care about this anymore. I never got "nasty" about anything and Im sorry if I lost respect for you after you started attacking me when I simply stated my opinion that I didnt like rollkur. I never wanted to "argue" or "debate" with you or whatever either so thats why I didnt have "many" arguments. I have my opinion and you will never change that. Please get over it and leave me alone! By the looks of the ratings on our comments, Im not the only one who thinks this anyway.
right, but no one seems to be able to state why. As the great philosophers say, an opion without arguments to back it, is not worthy of existence.
And I can tell you dont care, or you would try to change my mind, to make this world a better place for horses, as you say you believe. And if youd really care, you would want to learn more, instead of turning the other cheek. As I've only stated facts, not opinions. Ive never told you what to believe, so i dont understand why youre so sensitive.
I said I just prefer Classical dressage to Rollkur. I know there is no point in trying to change your mind so Im not going to waste my time on someone I dont know. I did ask you some questions and learn a bit but I still dont like it. Thats it. End of story. GOOD BYE
I know it might sound a bit cold, cuz I also like to believe my horse loved me. But calling rollkur abuse is quite a severe statement (altough it can be abusive, it far from always is)
That is why I say, if it doesn't hurt (pain is my area of expertise) it's ok. Im a chemical biologist, see.
Unfortunately, I had to sell my horse two years ago. I couldn't combine it with work. I have to travel a lot. I never used rollkur though, my horse didn't have that talent.
With a sport becoming more popular, money is more important apparently than the rules that are still supposedly enforced. They're changing the rules to allow the circus to continue. The judges are awarding this mockery to either not rock the boat or not ruin their own careers. Regardless, it does not belong in any discipline. It goes against what true Dressage teaches anyway. Why are we SO focused on the head and neck? When did this happen? Did everyone pick up Baucher's book or something?
Oh, and I forgot to mention Dressage dates far back to The Greeks (ie: Xenophon in 360 B.C "On the Art of Horsmanship") to even as far back as 800 B.C. So really? It's based solely on Art and the eye of the beholder?
I have to disagree also that Correct is whatever we find beautiful. The Masters knew what they were doing when it came to the horse's anatomy and biomechanics. If the Greeks studied anatomy, does that say that the masters well over 300 years ago didn't have access to this information? Legs doing just the work by snapping higher just goes to show that these horses weren't taught to sit and carry themselves properly. In a true piaffe, the horse grows taller in the forehand - incl. other movements.
After I started taking yoga I developed a deeper appreciation for developing the horse as an athlete, with gymnastic methods.
Sure, in yoga we get contorted. And though being flexible is more natural to me than being strong, there is always the counter stretch, there is always the strengh aspect to each stretch. And in Yoga we are not doing an active trot. :-\
Wonder what human equivalent this would be, say, in gymnastics class?
I'll say this over and over, just becaue something looks painfull, doenst mean it is. Its not fair to accuse someone who's devoted her life to horses, spent the greater part of her life searching for the ultimate techniques, so she can bring out the best of her mounts, of animalabuse on these grounds. And, it's been proven Rollkur can be painfull, but far from allways is. New research is needed to educate us further how to use hyperflexion correct.
geez i wonder how anyone throughout the thousands of year of horse training ever got through it without rollkur? In my eyes there is no 'correct' way to use rollkur, its just a cop out to try to make training faster and in the meantine ruining the horse
rollkur has been around since the dawn of dressage itself. It has been used in many different ancient disciplines of riding throughout history, but they unfortunately were lost in time. The reason riders were afraid to use it, is bc they didnt had the technology to prove it wasnt painfull. But guess what, now we can.
BUT the horse must never be hurt. (read my other comments)
what evidence is there to prove it doesnt hurt the horse or cause damage in the long run? Ive seen evidence that proves it does cause damage but never the opposite
If you would have read my other comments, or spent a little more time investigating, you would have known. btw, there is no study that proves rollkur is ALWAYS bad, not even in the long run. Most of the studies that claim it does, were done on horses ridden with an incorrect rollkur. Again, all of this you can find in my other coments, or in studies plubished in scientific bookstore.
Anyway, who defines what is correct? In any sport, the correct way, is the most effective way, no matter the pain (football/ballet/gymnastics). But then again humans choose to. Horses do not. So we have to be concerned about their wellbeing.
And since in the 67 cases of correctly ridden rollkur NO signs of distress (both chemically and visual) were found, why would it be wrong? Note that these horses were of exeptional talent, one of the requirements for rollkur.
Now lets define when a rollkur is correct. It is NOT achieved by simply pulling the curb, this has the opposite effect. The whole point of rollkur is to strecht the back muscles as far as possible.
-It can only be done in complete relaxation
-it has to have a talent for flexibility
-it has to have been trained correctly (electric on leg/correct on bit ect.)
-it needs sufficient muscles to substain such strechting.
If 1 of these points are missing, it is done INcorrect, and may be painful
and its not just Anky thats using it, almost all of the horses are BTV and overflexed. though sadly, being BTV is such a common sight in competion that nobody does anything about it =/
errr... to me that was a short period of hyperflexion, followed by relaxation on a long reign.. Did anyone see anythong else? Dont forget this horse is a perfectly trained athlete, supple enough to preform hyperflexion, (and on a lose reign!) You could even see it flick.. the curb was hardly used. That was great
its not really a matter of how long she used it, rather that she used it at all. all of the Classic principles say that the horse should NEVER be behind the vertical. and the flick doesnt really mean anything. a horse can be totally on the forehand and strung out and still have a huge flick.
Im making a documentary on hyperfexion. According to the 18 vets (both con and pro rollkur) ive spoken to, agree there is a correct way to use it, and Anky is doing it. According to the FEI rollkur may be used in training, but only for short periods of time, to stretch the back muscles.
As far as classical principles go, every sport evolves and changes. Also, rollkur is not a recent developement. It has been around as long as dressage itself. It should only be used by very!! experienced riders
there are other ways to stretch out a horses back. using long and low is a fantastic way to stretch out their backs. not shoving their nose to their chests. i know that hyperflexion's been around since the crack of dressage. but that still doesnt make it "correct" training/riding.
1. You may compare hyperflexion in horses with those amazing Cique du Soleil artists. While your and my muscles would break under such stress, to they it is a valuable trainingmethod.
2. Several independent scientific studies have shown that the chemical pocesses in a horse in correct hyperflexion, are the same is in superflexible human atheletes (like Cirque du Soleil)...
3. But not when ridden incorrect (by simply pulling the curb.
so from 18 to 20 now? and i watched the whole vid, and I've done research both pro and con and none of it means that it's not damaging the horse. I didn't once see the horse allowed to relax, nor did I see hyperflexion on a loose rein.
4. the only horses in which these processes were found, had a genetic talent for felixibility, had been trained intensively and correctly their inteire lives (correct on the bit, 'electric on leg ect.)
5. Not every trainingmethod (even those enforeced by Classical method) is required to be executed in the showring, so why should rollkur be? It has been proven effective.
the whole point of dressage was to produce a happy, healthy, well balanced athelete using kidness and understanding. not cruelty or force. which is EXACTLY what rollkur/hyperflexion does. its straight up incorrect riding and should NEVER EVER be used! all of the old Masters must be rolling in their graves. try to find the 1984 (i think) Olympics and watch Dr.Klimke and Ahlerich ride. THAT os what dressage is supposed to be, not what modern dressage has become.
Im not ignorant, ive spent 2 years of my life fully investigating this subject. If ur implying im ignorant, i find that very offensive.
6.Pain can be chemically determined. Parts of the brain 'light' up, and a whole range of hormones is released. None of these simptomes were found in the studies.
7. while the benefits of a correct rollkur has been proved, ive found critic is based on speculation (like: how would you feel if...) and is not based on scientific proof
Everything ive said here is based on scientific proof. No oppinoins,guessing or speculation, these are facts.
The tests, btw were preformed by chemical biologists, chemical researchers, horse specialized vets and other specialists for the dutch, french, german, australian and american gov. These tests prove that Rollkur CAN be used correct. The reason rollkur is not in Classical theory, is because they didnt have these tests back then.
no, i wasnt implying that youre ignorant on this subject. its not even a matter of the physical "benefits". its a matter that we have managed to corrupt a training system that was prolly one of the best systems ever created by man. that system is Classical dressage. and as for sports evolve, yeah, i know they do. but that doesnt mean that we should turn away from a training system that has withstood the test of over 1,000 years. hecks no!
The system has improved. Horses trained with (a correct, painless) Rollkur, preform better. Its only natural the sport changes. Everything changes.
Rollkur wasnt added to the Classical principles, because they didnt have the knowledge we have now. If they had, today Rollkur would have been accepted, and even better: improved! Meaning, if we accept it, we can study it, make standards to prevent Rollkur from being used too early in training. Because thats the real problem.
why should we turn away from it? because its been around since ancient Greece and the principles still hold true. i wouldnt say that the system has "improved". quite the opposite. Dr.Klimke was one of the most outspoken critics of using rollkur (wether correct or incorrect) and look at all the success he had using Classical principles. the problem w/ using rollkur in training is that the horse simply learns to just do the movements, not learning how to actually USE his ENTIRE body.
1st one: You cant stop change. Not for the sake of simply not changing. And again, yes it has improved. It has been proven by many riders.
2nd one: Every point dr Klimke has made, we have refuted with our research. His research was not done on horses with a correct rollkur, and was not sufficient.
3rd one: If u would have done your research, and read the FEI standard, you would have known Rollkur is only a small part of training. Thats also how Anky uses it.
Also, dr. Klimke has not used propper methods to define paine. Where we have used 5 methods, all indicating the same thing: A correct Rollkur is painless. It may be uncomfortable, but not painfull. Among the methods were: the local paralasis method, several brain studies (while training and after), and hormonal studies. Dr Klimke has used none of the above. Also, his research is outdated.
Also, Anky uses every single part Classical principles, but she added one, we know know for sure is effective and painless. I would like a response to at least one of my arguments, cuz youve given me none. All you go on about is Rollkur must be wrong cuz its not in Classical Principles. Open your eyes!
I would also like to know what you have studied. I am a chemical zoologist specialized in horses and I ride prix st george.. I think I know what im talking about.
From 18 to 20 she checks if is bend is correct, and he isnt stuck, by bending him the other way for 2 seconds. If you look closely, you can see its mainly her leg she uses, and moves her hand out for support. At 1.33 she lengthens the rein. She uses rollkur for a minuit and a half, as by FEI standard: Rollkur may be used to stretch the back muscles but only for short periods (5 to 10 m) at a time. There is no evidendence the yellow comments in the clips are true.
there is no evidence to the contrary. Where is your "proof" that you are who you say you are and that you have the results to these tests? it's all bs just because you support something blindly. Not correct. at all.
If you would have done your research, you could have seen that im not at all ignorant on the subject. As far as the test go, I am not yet allowed to publish any "proof". If you want I'll keep you posted. The FEI looking at the results as we speak. We're waiting to film their response. It is due to be shown on discovery in January. If you tell me where you're from I could try to find out the exact date.
Well, at least uve got to acknowlege that there is a chance (small or large doesnt matter) Rollkur can be used painless. Im not saying is has to be, but there is a chance. Sont you agree it should be thoroughly investigated before making bold accusations. You tell me im supporting something blindly, thats ur oppinion. But what evidence do you have? Id love to hear it, and thats serious. I love to learn, enlighten me
No, to put it bluntly, i'm not interested in something that does harm to countless horses. I don't agree that it can be used painlessly, as overstretching muscles for any amount of time causes damage to tendons. I've done research on countless websites for BOTH sides of the argument, and with an open mind. The fact is that those in favor of it have no proof whatsoever that it doesn't harm the horses, while the evidence of my own eyes tells me it is not a comfortable nor painless experience.
Further, i don't see how you can deny that fact since overstretching your own muscles while under stress would cause you severe discomfort and yes, pain. Horses muscles, while configured differently, work the same way as human muscles do. The tendons work the same way. So while you may prefer to believe that these "professionals" wouldn't harm their animals, do research on both sides of the argument, and not just the biased opinions of the ones who don't learn before they decide.
Yeah! youre right, they do work like human muscles. Thats why I made the comparisson with gymnists, whom also stretch their muscles to the extreme without hurt! Our team was made up mostly out of opposers of hyperflexion. They wanted to prove once and for all rollkur is painfull. I was one of them. But we proved the opposite. It CAN be done without pain. Thats a fact.
So before you were saying that I support something blindly. But, sorry to say, bit thats sorta what ur doing. You assume Rollkur must be painfull, cuz many studies showed it did. But new studies show that it can be done without harming the horse, older studies were done on an incorrect rollkur. Denying that is like putting your head in the sand, that never made anything better for anyone. Tell me where youre from! Id love for you to see our film. Im really proud of it, as you can tell :)
far from following something blindly, I've explored all angles of the research that i can find. I don't assume that it's painful, I've seen evidence that it is. I'm not putting my head in the sand and had you shown anything like proof, i might be more inclined to believe you.
I told you, tell me where youre from, Ill find out when it airs. Isnt that proof. Obviously you havent explored every angle. Like these vids here. They are supposed to be proof rollkur is painfull. But the fact of the matter is: you dont know, you cant tell by a vid. Just bc somehting looks painfull, doesnt neccesarily make it painful. Again: what gymnists do looks painfull, but it isnt. Give me one study that shows rollkur is ALLWAYS painfull. It doesnt exist
year old to piaffe, but that does not mean it will be collected, or have a high dregree of collection as the horse is, among other things, not strong enough to take the weight behind etc. FEI rules specify the required elements to be present in a correct, collected horse, eg poll highest point, the angulation of the joints in the hind quarters and also points out certain faults to be penalized eg a laterilized walk or forelegs crossing in the piaffe etc. But I find in watching many top..
Right now we would are ectually working on standards(age, training level, how long precisely at a time, ect). Our goal is to prevent pain! Thats why this research is so crucial.
And I would like to stress, that all con-evidence is speculation based. As ive said before, pain can be chemically determined. So why havent they? It couse the results werent consisted. Sometimes pain was proved (in an incorrect rollkur) and sometimes it wasnt painfull. Weve finnaly put it in the open.
Hey! I checked, it should air in the last week of january. The exact date isnt know yet, They way they do it: they reserve serveral spaces, and plan in new upcomming documentaries later. Depending on how the film turns out they choose a time. I also think the FEI will release a statement soon. Extra info: on the FEI website u can find an article about our research and how rollkur can be used painless. It was released last november i think. Tnx for your interest!
Cool, thanks. Will make for interesting watching, I'm sure. I'm anti-hyperflexion, you probably didn't gather, but not so much because of the perceived "pain" it causes eg to Salinero. More the general masses of people who imitate the technique and ruin many a horse. But also because Anky's horses, well many of the "top" riders horses, are not actually correct. At least not to my, and it seems to the FEI's own, eyes. They may be extremely flexible but they are not collected and without..
collection they are not correct. It seems to me to be a bit of a contradiction to breed, for generations, horses spefically to find work such as this easy (as, obviously, they do) but also to be "upward" built and conformed for the collected work, and then work them on the forehand and as a result have a horse that works on the forehand.
Yeah, I get what ur saying! I agree imitation by inexperienced riders is the biggest problem.
As far as hyperflexion goes, this is only a small part of training. Other aspacts of classical princples arent lost. I also think, as long as takt and impulsion arent lost during hyperflexion, it has no effect on the collected gait you ride afterwards. Its like oiling the gears, shifting them to test, to create a smoother machine. I appreciate your response! Finnaly a respectfull sensible comment!
combinations that they display many faults in the horses movements, the lateral walk is especially common, and very little actual collection or weight taking behind, particulary in the passage and piaffe, yet they consitently win. I undertand that the judging is not just down to whether or not the horse i correctly collected, there are many elements to judging dressage, but collection is a fundamental part of dressage and its natural progression-dressage i not just about performing tricks..
I realize that it is only a small part of the training. Obviously Anky is not going to spend her entire training session with her horses nose on its chest. That would be quite concerning. The problem with your statement regarding takt and impulsion during hyperflexion not effecting the collected gait is that the horse/s are not actually collected. Or, at the very least, not to the degree stipulated to be the standard required for the GP. As Im sure you would well know, you can teach a three..
in the arena, which it seems to have deteriorated into. Even horses that are lame, and in particular movements glaringly so, score very highly. I believe that a painless-not abolutely, as discomfort could be classed as pain, depending on the degree and duration-hyperflexion is possible, but I also believe in the long term hyperflexion can be damaging which, if my research doesnt lie, has been proven. I apologize for the rant, Im just interested to learn more from people who may know about it.
I never said the horse was collected during hyperfelxion. Weve found that from Prix st G to I1 riders that use rollkur succesfull, introduce in the warming up, rideing a relaxed working trot As we move up to GP we find a higher level of collection during hyperflexion. Ofcourse, not a correct or complete collection, and def not one you would show in the ring. It stretches the back further After that, the rider continues to prep the horse for the test, and rides a correct collection.
I dont believe I said that the horse was collected during hyperflexion either. Quite frankly there is no such thing as collection during hyperflexion-by riding a horse with his nose on his chest you are placing wieght on the forehand and that principle alone eliminates the possibility of achieving collection during hyperflexion. And I still do not believe that the collection shown in the ring by these combinations is correct, it seems there are very few people able to produce a correct..
They gain, is what we call "swing". The problem with this, is that its very hard to do without hurting their horse. Studies have shown that its definitly uncomfortable (the Yshaped maze test done in January), but Hey! hard work always is;I dont believe its painfull if done right. If youd make a horse in the maze choose between a pasture and riding, it would choose the pasture, ofcourse, but that doenst mean we should stop riding.
collection and Anky is not one of them. I am not sure if this is down to the type of horse she rides-correct me if I am wrong but I believe she prefers a horse with a good dollop of TB in them, although the modern warmblood generally has a lot of TB in it anyway, or the training, perhaps it is both. Anyhow...I dont doubt you would also be familar with the work of Dr Gerd Heuchmann and him having dedicated years to study on this subject and being of the opinion that hand heavy riding..
We've also found, that horses more experienced with a proper rollkur, show less and less signs of discomfort. By the time they reach, lets say, Ankys level, its a normal part of training and they have even become good at it. I guess they lame horse you mean is salinero. He isnt lame, he just puls his one leg up consistently higher than the other. Look at the space between the steps and you can see he isnt lame. Its been checked by vets multiple times.
follow through behind. Easy to spot in real time, glaringly obvious in slow motion. His walk was particularly bad-he might as well have been a pacer in shackles and even in the extended pace he barely tracked up at all. It is a widely accepted opnion that such a walk is an accurate indicator of incorrect training and is deemed by the FEI to be a serious degredation of the pace. His piaffe, too, was not of a good quality, among other things he crossed his forelegs-something else decribed..
A correct rollkur doesnt damage a horse in the long run. These tests, again, were done on horses with an incorrect rollkur (you mean the one done in 2006 i presume?) Bonfire and Prisco are great exemples. And you're right, the past 12 years competative dressage has changed, but I like change! Its become more of a spectaculair show, than a dull round in the ring. wearther this is a good thing is an ongoing argument for years im sure. And dont worry, as you can see, i love a good discussion :)
the likes of which is required to initially acheive hyperflexion-although when speaking about hand heavy riding, hyperflexion is not the only subject, is damaging to the horse both pshyically and pshycologically. He mentions in his book Tug of War, as it is known in english, that hyperflexion is used mostly to achieve the desired swing in the back but all it creates is a large amount of movement, not swing. Besides, for generations-and yes , I am aware that hyperflexion is not a new..
phenomenom, swing was achieved without hyperflexion. Also, salinero was not the horse I was referring to- it was sunrise. she is subtlely uneven in the trot movements and in the passage, but almost hopping lame in her trot half passes. Also, what is your opinion on the laziness, as such, of hyperflexion-trained horses behind. Bonfire is a fantastic example of this, I find, in his lack of ability to track up and for the disruption of the trot and walk sequence-he simply does not really..
by the FEI as a serious fault. And I reckon that the changes in dressage are more down to the changes in the quality of the horse avaliable, the expansion in the sport and therefore the competitiveness and inventiveness of the riders required to win, the kur also play a big part in the sports entertainment value and this i more thanks to technology than anything else...do you not think that all this would be achieveable without having to ride with your horses nose on his chest ;-]
Well, thats ur opinion, its hard to say something sensible about that, since that wasnt what this project was about. I believe thats a matter of taste. Afer all, classical principles were based on the taste of the old riders, to their perception of beauty. It can be done without rollkur, since this method is not effective on every horse. But the horses that can, are amazing athletes, give dressage another dimension, and win rightfully so. But thats just my taste, as long as no horse is hurt.
maar ze heeft het paard niet in de proef toch zo? je mag toch zelf weten hoe je een paard traint? en zij zorgt dat het paard helemaal los is in het lijf... ze heeft er heus wel een reden voor anders heeft het helemaal geen zin... Paarden moet los zijn in hun hele lichaam dat krijg je niet voor elkaar als je ze alleen maar in de 'oprichting' rijdt En daarom doen ze dit om paarden los in hun lijf te krijgen.. En ze is al zo vaak kampioen geworden ze weet heus wel wat ze doet hoor!!!
If you would you that to Anky, she would prob break her back. If you were to do that to a gymnist, theyd love you helping them stretch. Anky is a pony, salinero is the most flexible gymnist out there.
hey, i dont know if my comment got posted or not, so im gonna re-post it. i cant really state my opinion on rollkur properly b/c it wont come out right. go to Google, type in 'sustainable dressage', and click on the sustainable dressage website. and thats my opinion right there in a comprehensible form.
I allready told you: ive devoted 2 years of my life investigating this subject for the FEI. Ofcourse i know what sustainable dressage is, and Centered Riding (ect.) for that matter. All I ask is: why not add Rollkur to these principles IF IT ISNT painfull.
Lets be clear that if it is painfull, as shown in 33 of the test cases, an incorrect rollkur, it should not be used.
If youre not reacting to a comment, theres no sense in reacting at all You can clearly read what youve allready posted
Das ist ja übel. Wie wäre es mal mit vorwärt-abwärtsreiten und ohne Kandarre?
Zieht diese Reiter vom Pferd.... Egal ob Anky oder wer auch immer so reitet. Dagegen ist das Video, das ich mit ihr mit Idol aus Sydney kenne ja Pappenstiel.
And dressage and other english riders have the nerve to put down some western riders. Remember - glass houses and stones. This kind of riding in any discipline is shameful and disgraceful.
look at the poor, poor horse, look at the rider's position - there is no line from her elbow to the bit, see how she has to yank the reins out to the side!
The other horses look so much more relaxed and happy.
It´s awfull to see how LONG anky makes the horse hold such position (almost touching the chest). I´d perhaps be more tolerant if it´d only be few second few times during one HOUR, but many minutes in a row when walking trotting + galloping??
ack. hate it. i'd honestly prefer my horse's head in my lap than this far behind the vertical (yes i'm over-exaggerating; i just mean high above the bit, or sommat)
the horse it's tail is very relaxed thouh,
5nicole4 9 months ago
I fucking HATE that stupid woman!!!! in fact I hate everyone that treats their horse that way! It does nothing for the animal but forcing it into submisson
futzl77 10 months ago
its sad because other riders see her riding like that and think well if she is doing it I can get away with doing it too. Horrible, Im losing faith in judges and FEI for not taking care of this issue. Lots of money and competitions shouldn't be in front of the horses welfare ever.
lizzyj9386 11 months ago
@lizzyj9386 The FEI banned rollkur last year.
CameoRose 8 months ago
Its terrible !
IvanaLisaFox 11 months ago
The most of the horses in the video are ridden in the hyperflexion position....it´s terrible
annaunddaslicht 11 months ago
i bet that with these horses that are made to hold their heads in this position for so long, that if you let them stretch their neck out long and low, it would crack so loud!
maclaydreamer87 1 year ago
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Vision10335 1 year ago
this is bad for horse.
Claudka13 2 years ago 3
More of the check rein from Black Beauty mentality.......yuck!
mushmush7 2 years ago
Pulling is ectually harder when you lower your hands(basic biomechanics). By lowering your hands, you allow the horse to go lower as well, wich is what you want in this excersize. It doesnt relax the muscels, it is not supposed to. It stretches them, hence the name Hyperflexion. Relaxation must be acieved before starting (and sustained during) hyperflexion. FEI wisely supports nor is against rollkur untill further research is completed (statements can be found in their archieve)
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Comment removed
mcacmg 2 years ago
First of all why dont you opponents of "rollkur" get of the computer and go prove your worth on the back of a horse. Shes producing results, and they're pretty damn good. Second of all enough with the rollkur bit, rollkur is a german word for spa treatment. Use something applicable.
Chamberlin124 2 years ago
If I smack you with a whip, I am sure I could get you to dance like a chicken 4 hours straight. Your argument proves nothing. I do not know myself if this is bad for the horse physically and mentally, but I am very sure that it looks rubbish. And knowing that it can be done "wrong" so easily by other riders out there looking on these riders as their idols, it's for the benefit of all the horses out there that they stop instead of being selfish and just wanting to win win win.
letsprocras 2 years ago
So let's not put any responsibilty in the hands of those whom ride rollkur wrong. Let's put it in the hands of those whom (possibly) do it right. That doesn't make sense, does it?
Effects of abusive rollkur can be easily spotted (as described by Hueschsmann). Showjudges should simply not let them progress through levels (a system that doesnt exist in the USA unfortunately). That would solve that problem, wouldn't it?
Wherther it looks like rubbish or not, is debatable, bc it is an opinion.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
become, policing every movement, frame by frame? Obviously NO ONE, not even Edward and Totilas, are ever going to be text book perfect. And how do you mark riders at the lower levels that are obviously on the wrong path but who are doing it mostly under their own steam without discouraging them? The world gets too PC! haha. Something needs to be done, maybe just whack the judges at the top who mark lateral walks and piaffes that weave with 8's and 9's a clip around the ear lol
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
ach wat zielig nou. Arm paardje. tut tut tut. Maar het Nederlandse team wint wel ZONDER doping! Haha
Besides... dit zijn geen huis, tuin & keuken pony's. Dit zijn topsporters. Je moet mij ook niet vragen om tegen Inge te gaan zwemmen. Duh
missygriedie 2 years ago
@ Floortjahh:
Do you really believe that?
Oh my...
smilinwiebke 2 years ago
I trust whatever direction sientific evidence points me in, as everyone should.
It isnt fair to accuse anky of abuse, when the accusation is based on speculation. You wouldnt convict an innocent criminal, just cuz it looks like he did it, now would you?
Especially cause studies show rollkur is far from allways painfull or bad, even in the long run. You can find papers of these studies in scientific bookstores. Or, you could read my other comments...
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Have you ever heard of Gerd Heuschmann? He is a German vet who wrote a book (Tug of War) and also published a DVD (If Horses could speak). Both made him really popular here in Germany.
He looks at a horse's anatomy and shows which methods/movements do horses good and which cause harm.
Maybe you should take a look there and not continue with your comments until you're finished...
smilinwiebke 2 years ago
Yes, the reson the FEI didn't adopt his beliefs, was bc his studies were done on horses with an incorrect rollkur. This means they use different muscles than horses with an correct rollkur, and the outcome of this study was insufficient.
Maybe you should get a degree in chemical bio (study chemical and hormonal pocesses in mammals), then work for the FEI for 3 years, and not comment untill you're finished.
srry for the rudeness, but you could have known this if you would've read my comments
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Hi, Please confirm if you have a degree in chemical bio and worked for the FEI for 3 years and what sort of grades you got with your degree and what position you held at the FEI? And even this does not qualify you to be an expert on whether riding horses like this is correct or not.
As everything in life we have to gather what info there is an judge for ourselves, we do not have to be experts to comment as you have proven in your case... as you are commenting.
letsprocras 2 years ago
Comment removed
mcacmg 2 years ago
I think that was part of the point of Dr. Gs study was the effects on horses trained using a incorrect hyperflexion, because hyperflexion is not just limited to Anky, Isabelle, Gal etc. If these riders have figured out a way to do this without gradually destroying a horse, which I still dispute-Gribaldi-then perhaps they should encourage open sharing of information with regards of how to actually use it because people will copy regardless of whether or not they actually know how to use..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Ridiculous.
firenice2 2 years ago
???..care to explain?
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
The technique. Classical riding is taught everywhere and can be easily accessed if one wishes, even here in little ol NZ. But to find someone who can actually teach you how to properly use hyperflexion is another story and so many people, such as our beloved jaccko, with nothing more than vids in a foreign language and books, copies AVGs techniques under the impression they will improve their horses flexibility and performances and unwittingly ruins them instead. THAT is my main gripe with..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
hyperflexion. Well that and the result of it being horses that dont use their hind ends, dont sit, often cant walk, sometimes are even lame, more often than not BTV and are all front end flash. I would quite like to know your opinion on that one and once again have an enlightening discussion with regards to this subject. Because I believe we can both agree that AVG etc is not the only issue, and possibly not even the main issue, with hyperflexion.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Ah, now with this I completely agree :)
Rollkur/hyperflexion can be very dangerous. Maybe it should be banned, not bc so many use it the wrong way. But, I personally love the result when it's done correctly AND painless (which can be done as studies show). Honestly, I don't know.. The only thing I have a problem with is people/anky being accused of abuse, without being a 100% or even 90% sure. Her horses would have to be thoroughly monitored over a period of time.. which she wont do...
Floortjahh 2 years ago
I think there certainly will be riders who use it regardless. Making something illegal generally makes it more desireable for some and I imagine especially for those who find the results it produces to be fantastic. I dont particularly like the result at all when its done correctly, as such, Im still one for a Grand Prix dressage horse who can actually it and use his hindquarters in a correct frame-ie poll highest point, not BTV etc-as it is stipulated by the FEI to be the so called..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Now I would love to be the one to monitor Salinero :) that would boost my career wouldnt it haha. I guess, it's gonna remain a subject of controversy. I'm all for openness, and as ive said before, we need to do a lot more investigating before we can really make a decision: explore and perfect rollkur, or ban it all together to avoid problems. BUT there will be riders who won't stop even if it;s banned. What do you think, crazy doll?
Floortjahh 2 years ago
rules. If they want these horses to win then they need to change the rules to disregard the the guidelines for what is a correctly going, collected dressage horse...anyhow...I think there is more than enough proof to be able to say hyperflexion is indeed very damaging to
most hoses sunjected to it-I imagine most who are arent ridden by Anky haha-and the FEI needs to do more than say they disapprove. I watched young horses ridden in draw reins with a whip on each side to hit it every stride..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
I studied at the university of Utrecht. They also have a great vet departement where many studies on horses are done also. They are known as one of the best vet uni's in Europe, if not the world. You should look it up, they give amazing tours and everything.
The studies we did were done on horses especially bred for this purpose. We wanted to make sure they had the genetic qualities a horse needs to preform a correct rollkur, as well as correct trainig through out their life.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
They're 5 and 6 years old now, and so far we've focused on werther rollkur is painfull now. We'll have to see what it does in the long run, it's gonna take a few years. Several riders were used, they were thaught how to ride rollkur. This has been done around the world; a total of 84, of which 7 in the Netherlands and 31 in the US. 67 horses were OK.
Now the documentary about this is due to be shown in January.
But it may be delayed since the FEI has assigned another team to check our work.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Thats rather interesting. I look forward to seeing the doco, if they're going to show it here, which I hope they will. Might even be worth recording haha
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Well it's not mine :) You can only see me like 5 sec, when they film the lab.
My name appears in the credits tho. Oops, gotta rescue my new kitten from the laundry bin. He tumbled in, very cute :)
Floortjahh 2 years ago
haha kittens are great. we have a tendancy to rescue ours off our parents farm...poor wee blighters. they are super cute though, dont take long to tame and are especially cool in pairs, because then they play together :)
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
to remind them to bring the respective hind leg through while their noses were on their chests at a large and very well known stable in Germany and I wondered, if that kind of stuff happens there, with all these gadgets and whips and constant hitting, how do the amatures use it? But hyperflexion is a bit pointless anyway, IMHO. I think there are better ways to stretch a horse. When you did your study, on whose horses did you do it? Just out of interest.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Hi crazydoll!
What do you think of the idea of training judges to spot the effects of abusive rollkur, and not letting those riders progess through levels, instead of abolishing it all together? Holland (NL) allready has such a system, the USA unfortunately not. I thought that was strange when I was competing there myself a few years back. Open entrance in any level you want leaves room for cutting corners. In NL(and other EU countries) progress is carefully monitored by professionals.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
I think it's a good idea, although almost pointless as yet here in NZ anyway. But the thing with rollkur and with bad riding in general, or riding with hard hands (essentially hyperflexion without realizing, not actually used as a training tool just because the riders doesn't really know what they're doing) creates much the same picture-trailing quarters, a dip infront of the wither, the over quoted "break at the 3rd vetebrae in the neck" and in the horses more naturally adept to such movement..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
an over active forehand without actually taking any weight behind. Oh and lets not forget the too-often-seen lateral walk, dipping behind or remaining behind the vertical in tests and a four beat canter etc etc...anyhow. These are all faults already described by the FEI and faults they state should be penalized, yet many don't. Perhaps, instead of training people to see what they should already see or do see but ignore for the sake of flashy movement they should come up with some kind of system
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
that penalizes/downgrades or something like that, those who openly reward such a display. Make it an incentive to reward a correctly going horse. Maybe something akin to the video referee in rugby (you might have to research that one lol) may need to be emplyed to detect such things if it doesn't seem visible to the naked eye although in most cases its glaringly obvious. But then it gets to the point where you have to say where do you draw the line? How political are we going to allow it to..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
heya. have you seen the video from the latest world cup qualifier of the stallion scandic? at one point his tongue is flopping out the side of his mouth and it is quite a distinct colour blue. I figure there must be a reason firstly for his behaviour and secondly for the colour of his tongue. He was shown in the vid worked in extreme hyperflexion for over 10 minutes and according to witnesses was worked in this position for about 2 hours. Im interested to know your thoughts on this and perhaps..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
even your understanding of the reasoning behind working a horse that is supposed to be trained to take weight behind, working him so deep and on the forehand for so long. Your probably aware that his rider is trained by sjef. Also, what are your thoughts on his paces? In my opinion from what I can see of his canter it is all but ruined and his trot is that pseudo passage/trot that I was always told to NOT allow the horse to do as it was an evasion-he wasnt really using himself and was tensing.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Do you think this is a correct hyperflexion, as trained by someone probably best regarded as one of the foremost experts on the subject? And last but not least what do you think of the extended use of it-up to 10 mins as shown in the vid-when in the forum in 2006 it was described as only ever being used for about 20 seconds or so as a suppling exercise? What i the purpose of using it for so long? As always, Im interested to learn :) thanks
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Srry, was on a businesstrip in the US these past three weeks. Some students came up with a new technique for measuring muscle activity. very cool!
Err.. 2 hours aye? That's quite long.. The only explenation I can give is that that horse must be extremely good at rollkur... Cuz if he isn't... well...
Anyway, we can't know for sure. I wish these guys would have their horses examined... We can't make them though...
Floortjahh 2 years ago
It would be nice, wouldnt it. I always think that if one cant be entirely open about something, perhaps they have something to hide...but youd never know. Human nature, I guess. but yea, 2 hours. I dont understand the reason behind ballistic stretching for two hours. And for dressage to do so in that position would be pointless. Yes/no?
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Wow I had a hard time watching that.....I simply dont understand why anyone would even WANT to use a technique that could even be CONSIDERED cruel when the classical way is and always will be correct!! All I know is that I love horses and while I love the sport and all that, it truely comes down to the joy of teaching a horse to WANT to be a great athlete for you and not having to force anything on them!
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago
bc the sport is changing, like any other sport out there. Read my tother comments, youll find out a correct rollkur has nothing to do with forcing, and the horse must never be hurt.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
What has 'changed' in the sport so that we have to resort to using cruel techniques?
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago
If it doen't hurt its not cruel...
i just said that...
Floortjahh 2 years ago
I have seen studies that show that hyperflexion does in fact cause pain to the horse's neck and back. And once again..... how has the sport changed so that it requieres this new training method?
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago
There have also been studies showing a correct rollkur doesnt hurt..
Also, there is no studie existing that proves rollkur is ALWAYS painfull..
The studies that show rollkur is painfull are done with an incorrect rollkur.. The reports of these tests even say so!
The thing that's changed that now we have the technology proving that rollkur isn't (always) abuse, where before it was just guessing and speculation.
You haven't read my other comment have you?
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Like I said in my first comment, if there is even a chance of something being very bad for your horse I really dont see why you would even want to do it. Does a "correct" rollkur have benefits way beyond the classical methods?
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago
If you'd think you were hurting your horse, you woulnd't use it. It is the responsibility of the rider. Just like using a whip, spurs or extra reigns. Even bits or saddles can be used ubusively in order to reach a certain goal.
The gain is what they call 'swing'. Werther it is better than the classical style is a matter of opinion.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Lol yea thats why I dont use it. That makes sense. What is swing though?
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago
Well if youre not sure, it's better not to use it. It takes a very experienced rider to do it right. Only very few horses can do it anyway. It takes specific breeding and training.
"Swing" is the what makes ordinary movements more spectaculair. For instance the piaffe. Leggs are pulled up higher and the haunchess swings more because the back is suppler (compare to gymnists). Some say the horses dont move correctly, but I think thats just a matter of taste. Correct is whatever we find beautiful.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Ok. What do you think about the horse's tongues turning blue and even top riders like Anky using the method for hours at a time? I must say I dont agree that correct is whatever we find beautiful. To me, whats correct is what makes the horse happy while reaching to his/her fullest potential.
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago 2
Why not? The riders who made up Classical principles did it to match their perception of beauty. You define fullest potential by what has been taught to you. But it's all relative. Btw, FEI has different guidelines now than 50 years ago, so the sport changes (to their taste), that's a fact. Plus, rollkur is nothing new, it's been around since the dawn of dressage.
I'm all for innovation, unless the horse is hurt.
Btw, if you realy want to make your horse happy, set it free.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Classical principals where built to train horses and Im sure things have changed over the years but allowing horses with blue tongues and their nose in their chest to enter the dressage ring is a big change that most of the dressage world is not in favor of. I'll admit I dont know much about dressage (only been riding it for 8months) but I do know horses that have LOVED their jobs!
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago
A blue tongue can have a number reasons. In all my years researching rollkur,ive never seen it do that.
As far as a horses love for the sport goes, you don't know that. Animal behabiorists call it the "black box". You can speculate about an animals feelings, but you don't know. You don't know your horse loves dressage. Although it might seem like it, you don't really know. That is why you can't say they don't like rollkur, All you can go with is the scientific facts, really
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Well people watching dressage competitions have reported seeing it. And I know we cant read our horse's minds but I truely believe if you have the capacity to to understand your horse and feel what they feel, you can pretty much know what they're thinking yourself just like horses can feel their rider's emotions.
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago
Arg, frustrating. You're completly missing the point I'm trying to make. It's ok to dissagree or agree with rollkur by werther you personally like the result. But some accuse the users of abuse on speculation: how the horse feels (I'm not talking about stress, but werther they like it or not. see: Y-maze test results); bc it looks painful (speculation); bc it is abuse in some cases(insufficient proof). This, I find unfair. And that's what I'm against.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
As far as the tongue goes. Blue means a lack of oxygen (reduced bloodflow). This can occur when the tongue gets caught over or between bit's. In the vid, you can Patrik put the tongue back, and it turns pink afterwards (while still riding rollkur). Bc i assume you mean the vid of Patrik Kittel on Scandic. Again: to much speculation going on to accuse him of abuse. Especially since the artaries are not blocked by rollkur, as any study (pro and con) will show you.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Oh ok just a lack of oxygen no big deal.......o.0 sorry girl but I love horses.
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago
And youre implying I dont? It could happen to anyone.
Btw would the one who gave my comment below a thumbs down pls explain themselves.. geez
Floortjahh 2 years ago
It sounds to me like you dont. And no it wont happen to me and Ive never seen it happen to anyone I know either because my barn and other barns I have friends at are all opposed to it.
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago
Why not? All I'm saying that if rollkur is not hurting the horse, it's ok. What is wrong with that?! How does that mean I don't love horses?
I guess you never had debate classes. In a debate you never attack the person. Only the arguments, with sensible, well over thought comments.
Instead you choose to insult me. That is a sign of people who are running out of sensible things to say. Or is that a lie?
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Rollkur is most definitely abuse of the horse. Abuse by mental abuse ..the learned helplessness form.
Abuse by yanking on their mouths to get them in the position in the first place - don't say they don't yank because it is quite blatantly not true.
Abuse because it is limiting their breathing - which has been proved by vets.
Abuse according to the FEI own admission by keeping the horse in RK for long periods - as has been documented many times.
Now tell me it's not hurting the horse!!
BanRollkur 2 years ago 11
Here we go again... In all research that "proves" physical pain and limited breathing, rk was reached by extra reigns or other methods (such as yanking). This is stated clearly in every report I have ever read on the subject (pretty much every report out there since that's my job). However, this is not how a correct rk is achieved. It must be achieved from total releaxation after years of correct training and even then, a horse needs an exeptional talent.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Dont think youve done your job properly! Borstel found that horses are more fearful/dangerous to ride. McGreevy found there was visionary/respiratory impairment. Warendorf found calcifications of vertebrae/skull. Psychologically-conflict behaviours arose, also learned helplessness due to overshadowing of stimulus cues (aids) such as simultaneous [and overt] leg/rein pressure. CAMPAIGN TO STOP IT!
jjclimb69 2 years ago 4
if all factors are good, and rk is achieved with a soft hand, the muscles around the throat stay relaxed (as they always should be) and thus not blocking the airway.
In the most recent research, done with correct rk hormonal tests (among others)show there is no physical pain involved. reports of this can be found in scientific bookstores. I personally don't believe it is mental abuse, but I agree, it's debatable. More research is needed.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Since there is evidence it is abuse, and that it is benefitial (because there is, werther you like it or not), should riders be accused of animal abuse? That is a line I believe we should not cross. You wouldn't convict a murderer bc it seems like he's done it. You need hard evidence. And unless those horses in question undergo a series of tests, there will not be any. If animal abuse is really anticipated, FEI could force such testing in court. But to this day, no one has been able to do so
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Maybe it doesn't happen at your barn, bc no one rides professional levels, thus no one's using dubble bridels. Chances that the tongue gets stuck is higher with dubble bridles. Tongues get stuck regularly (although not that long!)
But that's not the point. The point is it had nothing to do with the hyperflexion ridden. Yes it was stupid of Patrik not to notice before. yes poor horse, that can't have been fun. Yes it should never have happene.
But it is not due to the way the horse was ridden.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
i have ridden with an fei trainer that never had those problems becuase she was from germany and a classical rider. and i never knew we where debating but ok. i honestly am totally over this conversation. u can continue thinkin ur right and im wrong thats fine with me
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago
Dude, the FEI report on this states the same thing! I am an FEI researcher, and I've never seen it happen during the tests we've run. Why is it due to rollkur, huh? You couldn't say, bc it's not. Ask your trainer.
How can you not know we are debating? Do you not know the word?
And why are you over the converstaion? I'm not the one offending anyone!
Floortjahh 2 years ago
So ive put up a vid of old fotos, cuz i said youd love to see me ride. I quite enjoyed youre vid as well, very cute horses.
Just dont doubt my love of horses. Just bc we have a different opion doesnt mean you have to get nasty. You can still respect each others arguments (even tho you didnt have many).
Floortjahh 2 years ago
I really dont care about this anymore. I never got "nasty" about anything and Im sorry if I lost respect for you after you started attacking me when I simply stated my opinion that I didnt like rollkur. I never wanted to "argue" or "debate" with you or whatever either so thats why I didnt have "many" arguments. I have my opinion and you will never change that. Please get over it and leave me alone! By the looks of the ratings on our comments, Im not the only one who thinks this anyway.
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago 2
right, but no one seems to be able to state why. As the great philosophers say, an opion without arguments to back it, is not worthy of existence.
And I can tell you dont care, or you would try to change my mind, to make this world a better place for horses, as you say you believe. And if youd really care, you would want to learn more, instead of turning the other cheek. As I've only stated facts, not opinions. Ive never told you what to believe, so i dont understand why youre so sensitive.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
I said I just prefer Classical dressage to Rollkur. I know there is no point in trying to change your mind so Im not going to waste my time on someone I dont know. I did ask you some questions and learn a bit but I still dont like it. Thats it. End of story. GOOD BYE
Dressage4Jumpers 2 years ago 2
I know it might sound a bit cold, cuz I also like to believe my horse loved me. But calling rollkur abuse is quite a severe statement (altough it can be abusive, it far from always is)
That is why I say, if it doesn't hurt (pain is my area of expertise) it's ok. Im a chemical biologist, see.
Unfortunately, I had to sell my horse two years ago. I couldn't combine it with work. I have to travel a lot. I never used rollkur though, my horse didn't have that talent.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
With a sport becoming more popular, money is more important apparently than the rules that are still supposedly enforced. They're changing the rules to allow the circus to continue. The judges are awarding this mockery to either not rock the boat or not ruin their own careers. Regardless, it does not belong in any discipline. It goes against what true Dressage teaches anyway. Why are we SO focused on the head and neck? When did this happen? Did everyone pick up Baucher's book or something?
canterpir0uette 2 years ago 2
Oh, and I forgot to mention Dressage dates far back to The Greeks (ie: Xenophon in 360 B.C "On the Art of Horsmanship") to even as far back as 800 B.C. So really? It's based solely on Art and the eye of the beholder?
canterpir0uette 2 years ago
I have to disagree also that Correct is whatever we find beautiful. The Masters knew what they were doing when it came to the horse's anatomy and biomechanics. If the Greeks studied anatomy, does that say that the masters well over 300 years ago didn't have access to this information? Legs doing just the work by snapping higher just goes to show that these horses weren't taught to sit and carry themselves properly. In a true piaffe, the horse grows taller in the forehand - incl. other movements.
canterpir0uette 2 years ago
I'll bite here.
After I started taking yoga I developed a deeper appreciation for developing the horse as an athlete, with gymnastic methods.
Sure, in yoga we get contorted. And though being flexible is more natural to me than being strong, there is always the counter stretch, there is always the strengh aspect to each stretch. And in Yoga we are not doing an active trot. :-\
Wonder what human equivalent this would be, say, in gymnastics class?
Barnes9999 2 years ago
Hi, welcome to the conversation!
I'll say this over and over, just becaue something looks painfull, doenst mean it is. Its not fair to accuse someone who's devoted her life to horses, spent the greater part of her life searching for the ultimate techniques, so she can bring out the best of her mounts, of animalabuse on these grounds. And, it's been proven Rollkur can be painfull, but far from allways is. New research is needed to educate us further how to use hyperflexion correct.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
ah, shut up.
Leooopeo 2 years ago
Omg yeah ur right. I will totally shut up... :S
Floortjahh 2 years ago
geez i wonder how anyone throughout the thousands of year of horse training ever got through it without rollkur? In my eyes there is no 'correct' way to use rollkur, its just a cop out to try to make training faster and in the meantine ruining the horse
mel545 2 years ago
that last comment was re Floortjahh btw
mel545 2 years ago
rollkur has been around since the dawn of dressage itself. It has been used in many different ancient disciplines of riding throughout history, but they unfortunately were lost in time. The reason riders were afraid to use it, is bc they didnt had the technology to prove it wasnt painfull. But guess what, now we can.
BUT the horse must never be hurt. (read my other comments)
Floortjahh 2 years ago
what evidence is there to prove it doesnt hurt the horse or cause damage in the long run? Ive seen evidence that proves it does cause damage but never the opposite
mel545 2 years ago
If you would have read my other comments, or spent a little more time investigating, you would have known. btw, there is no study that proves rollkur is ALWAYS bad, not even in the long run. Most of the studies that claim it does, were done on horses ridden with an incorrect rollkur. Again, all of this you can find in my other coments, or in studies plubished in scientific bookstore.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
in the words of the great Charles de Knuffy : "Brutality begins where knowledge ends. Ignorance and compulsion appear simultaneously."
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago
is speculation knowledge?
Anyway, who defines what is correct? In any sport, the correct way, is the most effective way, no matter the pain (football/ballet/gymnastics). But then again humans choose to. Horses do not. So we have to be concerned about their wellbeing.
And since in the 67 cases of correctly ridden rollkur NO signs of distress (both chemically and visual) were found, why would it be wrong? Note that these horses were of exeptional talent, one of the requirements for rollkur.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Now lets define when a rollkur is correct. It is NOT achieved by simply pulling the curb, this has the opposite effect. The whole point of rollkur is to strecht the back muscles as far as possible.
-It can only be done in complete relaxation
-it has to have a talent for flexibility
-it has to have been trained correctly (electric on leg/correct on bit ect.)
-it needs sufficient muscles to substain such strechting.
If 1 of these points are missing, it is done INcorrect, and may be painful
Floortjahh 2 years ago
and its not just Anky thats using it, almost all of the horses are BTV and overflexed. though sadly, being BTV is such a common sight in competion that nobody does anything about it =/
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago
errr... to me that was a short period of hyperflexion, followed by relaxation on a long reign.. Did anyone see anythong else? Dont forget this horse is a perfectly trained athlete, supple enough to preform hyperflexion, (and on a lose reign!) You could even see it flick.. the curb was hardly used. That was great
Way to go Anky!!!!! :D
Floortjahh 2 years ago
its not really a matter of how long she used it, rather that she used it at all. all of the Classic principles say that the horse should NEVER be behind the vertical. and the flick doesnt really mean anything. a horse can be totally on the forehand and strung out and still have a huge flick.
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago
Im making a documentary on hyperfexion. According to the 18 vets (both con and pro rollkur) ive spoken to, agree there is a correct way to use it, and Anky is doing it. According to the FEI rollkur may be used in training, but only for short periods of time, to stretch the back muscles.
As far as classical principles go, every sport evolves and changes. Also, rollkur is not a recent developement. It has been around as long as dressage itself. It should only be used by very!! experienced riders
Floortjahh 2 years ago
there are other ways to stretch out a horses back. using long and low is a fantastic way to stretch out their backs. not shoving their nose to their chests. i know that hyperflexion's been around since the crack of dressage. but that still doesnt make it "correct" training/riding.
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago
1. You may compare hyperflexion in horses with those amazing Cique du Soleil artists. While your and my muscles would break under such stress, to they it is a valuable trainingmethod.
2. Several independent scientific studies have shown that the chemical pocesses in a horse in correct hyperflexion, are the same is in superflexible human atheletes (like Cirque du Soleil)...
3. But not when ridden incorrect (by simply pulling the curb.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
so from 18 to 20 now? and i watched the whole vid, and I've done research both pro and con and none of it means that it's not damaging the horse. I didn't once see the horse allowed to relax, nor did I see hyperflexion on a loose rein.
lightordark24 2 years ago
4. the only horses in which these processes were found, had a genetic talent for felixibility, had been trained intensively and correctly their inteire lives (correct on the bit, 'electric on leg ect.)
5. Not every trainingmethod (even those enforeced by Classical method) is required to be executed in the showring, so why should rollkur be? It has been proven effective.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
the whole point of dressage was to produce a happy, healthy, well balanced athelete using kidness and understanding. not cruelty or force. which is EXACTLY what rollkur/hyperflexion does. its straight up incorrect riding and should NEVER EVER be used! all of the old Masters must be rolling in their graves. try to find the 1984 (i think) Olympics and watch Dr.Klimke and Ahlerich ride. THAT os what dressage is supposed to be, not what modern dressage has become.
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago
Im not ignorant, ive spent 2 years of my life fully investigating this subject. If ur implying im ignorant, i find that very offensive.
6.Pain can be chemically determined. Parts of the brain 'light' up, and a whole range of hormones is released. None of these simptomes were found in the studies.
7. while the benefits of a correct rollkur has been proved, ive found critic is based on speculation (like: how would you feel if...) and is not based on scientific proof
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Everything ive said here is based on scientific proof. No oppinoins,guessing or speculation, these are facts.
The tests, btw were preformed by chemical biologists, chemical researchers, horse specialized vets and other specialists for the dutch, french, german, australian and american gov. These tests prove that Rollkur CAN be used correct. The reason rollkur is not in Classical theory, is because they didnt have these tests back then.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
no, i wasnt implying that youre ignorant on this subject. its not even a matter of the physical "benefits". its a matter that we have managed to corrupt a training system that was prolly one of the best systems ever created by man. that system is Classical dressage. and as for sports evolve, yeah, i know they do. but that doesnt mean that we should turn away from a training system that has withstood the test of over 1,000 years. hecks no!
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago
Why?
The system has improved. Horses trained with (a correct, painless) Rollkur, preform better. Its only natural the sport changes. Everything changes.
Rollkur wasnt added to the Classical principles, because they didnt have the knowledge we have now. If they had, today Rollkur would have been accepted, and even better: improved! Meaning, if we accept it, we can study it, make standards to prevent Rollkur from being used too early in training. Because thats the real problem.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
why should we turn away from it? because its been around since ancient Greece and the principles still hold true. i wouldnt say that the system has "improved". quite the opposite. Dr.Klimke was one of the most outspoken critics of using rollkur (wether correct or incorrect) and look at all the success he had using Classical principles. the problem w/ using rollkur in training is that the horse simply learns to just do the movements, not learning how to actually USE his ENTIRE body.
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago
Your 3 comments dont make sense...
1st one: You cant stop change. Not for the sake of simply not changing. And again, yes it has improved. It has been proven by many riders.
2nd one: Every point dr Klimke has made, we have refuted with our research. His research was not done on horses with a correct rollkur, and was not sufficient.
3rd one: If u would have done your research, and read the FEI standard, you would have known Rollkur is only a small part of training. Thats also how Anky uses it.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Also, dr. Klimke has not used propper methods to define paine. Where we have used 5 methods, all indicating the same thing: A correct Rollkur is painless. It may be uncomfortable, but not painfull. Among the methods were: the local paralasis method, several brain studies (while training and after), and hormonal studies. Dr Klimke has used none of the above. Also, his research is outdated.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Also, Anky uses every single part Classical principles, but she added one, we know know for sure is effective and painless. I would like a response to at least one of my arguments, cuz youve given me none. All you go on about is Rollkur must be wrong cuz its not in Classical Principles. Open your eyes!
I would also like to know what you have studied. I am a chemical zoologist specialized in horses and I ride prix st george.. I think I know what im talking about.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
From 18 to 20 she checks if is bend is correct, and he isnt stuck, by bending him the other way for 2 seconds. If you look closely, you can see its mainly her leg she uses, and moves her hand out for support. At 1.33 she lengthens the rein. She uses rollkur for a minuit and a half, as by FEI standard: Rollkur may be used to stretch the back muscles but only for short periods (5 to 10 m) at a time. There is no evidendence the yellow comments in the clips are true.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
there is no evidence to the contrary. Where is your "proof" that you are who you say you are and that you have the results to these tests? it's all bs just because you support something blindly. Not correct. at all.
lightordark24 2 years ago
If you would have done your research, you could have seen that im not at all ignorant on the subject. As far as the test go, I am not yet allowed to publish any "proof". If you want I'll keep you posted. The FEI looking at the results as we speak. We're waiting to film their response. It is due to be shown on discovery in January. If you tell me where you're from I could try to find out the exact date.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
oh, right, you're not "allowed" to publish the truth. Mmhmm. I highly doubt that you know anything about the subject, regardless of what you say.
lightordark24 2 years ago
So ur not interestested? Thats sad...
Well, at least uve got to acknowlege that there is a chance (small or large doesnt matter) Rollkur can be used painless. Im not saying is has to be, but there is a chance. Sont you agree it should be thoroughly investigated before making bold accusations. You tell me im supporting something blindly, thats ur oppinion. But what evidence do you have? Id love to hear it, and thats serious. I love to learn, enlighten me
Floortjahh 2 years ago
No, to put it bluntly, i'm not interested in something that does harm to countless horses. I don't agree that it can be used painlessly, as overstretching muscles for any amount of time causes damage to tendons. I've done research on countless websites for BOTH sides of the argument, and with an open mind. The fact is that those in favor of it have no proof whatsoever that it doesn't harm the horses, while the evidence of my own eyes tells me it is not a comfortable nor painless experience.
lightordark24 2 years ago
Further, i don't see how you can deny that fact since overstretching your own muscles while under stress would cause you severe discomfort and yes, pain. Horses muscles, while configured differently, work the same way as human muscles do. The tendons work the same way. So while you may prefer to believe that these "professionals" wouldn't harm their animals, do research on both sides of the argument, and not just the biased opinions of the ones who don't learn before they decide.
lightordark24 2 years ago
Yeah! youre right, they do work like human muscles. Thats why I made the comparisson with gymnists, whom also stretch their muscles to the extreme without hurt! Our team was made up mostly out of opposers of hyperflexion. They wanted to prove once and for all rollkur is painfull. I was one of them. But we proved the opposite. It CAN be done without pain. Thats a fact.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
So before you were saying that I support something blindly. But, sorry to say, bit thats sorta what ur doing. You assume Rollkur must be painfull, cuz many studies showed it did. But new studies show that it can be done without harming the horse, older studies were done on an incorrect rollkur. Denying that is like putting your head in the sand, that never made anything better for anyone. Tell me where youre from! Id love for you to see our film. Im really proud of it, as you can tell :)
Floortjahh 2 years ago
far from following something blindly, I've explored all angles of the research that i can find. I don't assume that it's painful, I've seen evidence that it is. I'm not putting my head in the sand and had you shown anything like proof, i might be more inclined to believe you.
lightordark24 2 years ago
I told you, tell me where youre from, Ill find out when it airs. Isnt that proof. Obviously you havent explored every angle. Like these vids here. They are supposed to be proof rollkur is painfull. But the fact of the matter is: you dont know, you cant tell by a vid. Just bc somehting looks painfull, doesnt neccesarily make it painful. Again: what gymnists do looks painfull, but it isnt. Give me one study that shows rollkur is ALLWAYS painfull. It doesnt exist
Floortjahh 2 years ago
year old to piaffe, but that does not mean it will be collected, or have a high dregree of collection as the horse is, among other things, not strong enough to take the weight behind etc. FEI rules specify the required elements to be present in a correct, collected horse, eg poll highest point, the angulation of the joints in the hind quarters and also points out certain faults to be penalized eg a laterilized walk or forelegs crossing in the piaffe etc. But I find in watching many top..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Right now we would are ectually working on standards(age, training level, how long precisely at a time, ect). Our goal is to prevent pain! Thats why this research is so crucial.
And I would like to stress, that all con-evidence is speculation based. As ive said before, pain can be chemically determined. So why havent they? It couse the results werent consisted. Sometimes pain was proved (in an incorrect rollkur) and sometimes it wasnt painfull. Weve finnaly put it in the open.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
when would it air in new zealand
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Hey! I checked, it should air in the last week of january. The exact date isnt know yet, They way they do it: they reserve serveral spaces, and plan in new upcomming documentaries later. Depending on how the film turns out they choose a time. I also think the FEI will release a statement soon. Extra info: on the FEI website u can find an article about our research and how rollkur can be used painless. It was released last november i think. Tnx for your interest!
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Cool, thanks. Will make for interesting watching, I'm sure. I'm anti-hyperflexion, you probably didn't gather, but not so much because of the perceived "pain" it causes eg to Salinero. More the general masses of people who imitate the technique and ruin many a horse. But also because Anky's horses, well many of the "top" riders horses, are not actually correct. At least not to my, and it seems to the FEI's own, eyes. They may be extremely flexible but they are not collected and without..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
collection they are not correct. It seems to me to be a bit of a contradiction to breed, for generations, horses spefically to find work such as this easy (as, obviously, they do) but also to be "upward" built and conformed for the collected work, and then work them on the forehand and as a result have a horse that works on the forehand.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Yeah, I get what ur saying! I agree imitation by inexperienced riders is the biggest problem.
As far as hyperflexion goes, this is only a small part of training. Other aspacts of classical princples arent lost. I also think, as long as takt and impulsion arent lost during hyperflexion, it has no effect on the collected gait you ride afterwards. Its like oiling the gears, shifting them to test, to create a smoother machine. I appreciate your response! Finnaly a respectfull sensible comment!
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Err no negative effect on collection i mean! :)
Floortjahh 2 years ago
combinations that they display many faults in the horses movements, the lateral walk is especially common, and very little actual collection or weight taking behind, particulary in the passage and piaffe, yet they consitently win. I undertand that the judging is not just down to whether or not the horse i correctly collected, there are many elements to judging dressage, but collection is a fundamental part of dressage and its natural progression-dressage i not just about performing tricks..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
I realize that it is only a small part of the training. Obviously Anky is not going to spend her entire training session with her horses nose on its chest. That would be quite concerning. The problem with your statement regarding takt and impulsion during hyperflexion not effecting the collected gait is that the horse/s are not actually collected. Or, at the very least, not to the degree stipulated to be the standard required for the GP. As Im sure you would well know, you can teach a three..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
in the arena, which it seems to have deteriorated into. Even horses that are lame, and in particular movements glaringly so, score very highly. I believe that a painless-not abolutely, as discomfort could be classed as pain, depending on the degree and duration-hyperflexion is possible, but I also believe in the long term hyperflexion can be damaging which, if my research doesnt lie, has been proven. I apologize for the rant, Im just interested to learn more from people who may know about it.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
I never said the horse was collected during hyperfelxion. Weve found that from Prix st G to I1 riders that use rollkur succesfull, introduce in the warming up, rideing a relaxed working trot As we move up to GP we find a higher level of collection during hyperflexion. Ofcourse, not a correct or complete collection, and def not one you would show in the ring. It stretches the back further After that, the rider continues to prep the horse for the test, and rides a correct collection.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
I dont believe I said that the horse was collected during hyperflexion either. Quite frankly there is no such thing as collection during hyperflexion-by riding a horse with his nose on his chest you are placing wieght on the forehand and that principle alone eliminates the possibility of achieving collection during hyperflexion. And I still do not believe that the collection shown in the ring by these combinations is correct, it seems there are very few people able to produce a correct..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
They gain, is what we call "swing". The problem with this, is that its very hard to do without hurting their horse. Studies have shown that its definitly uncomfortable (the Yshaped maze test done in January), but Hey! hard work always is;I dont believe its painfull if done right. If youd make a horse in the maze choose between a pasture and riding, it would choose the pasture, ofcourse, but that doenst mean we should stop riding.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
collection and Anky is not one of them. I am not sure if this is down to the type of horse she rides-correct me if I am wrong but I believe she prefers a horse with a good dollop of TB in them, although the modern warmblood generally has a lot of TB in it anyway, or the training, perhaps it is both. Anyhow...I dont doubt you would also be familar with the work of Dr Gerd Heuchmann and him having dedicated years to study on this subject and being of the opinion that hand heavy riding..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
We've also found, that horses more experienced with a proper rollkur, show less and less signs of discomfort. By the time they reach, lets say, Ankys level, its a normal part of training and they have even become good at it. I guess they lame horse you mean is salinero. He isnt lame, he just puls his one leg up consistently higher than the other. Look at the space between the steps and you can see he isnt lame. Its been checked by vets multiple times.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
follow through behind. Easy to spot in real time, glaringly obvious in slow motion. His walk was particularly bad-he might as well have been a pacer in shackles and even in the extended pace he barely tracked up at all. It is a widely accepted opnion that such a walk is an accurate indicator of incorrect training and is deemed by the FEI to be a serious degredation of the pace. His piaffe, too, was not of a good quality, among other things he crossed his forelegs-something else decribed..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
A correct rollkur doesnt damage a horse in the long run. These tests, again, were done on horses with an incorrect rollkur (you mean the one done in 2006 i presume?) Bonfire and Prisco are great exemples. And you're right, the past 12 years competative dressage has changed, but I like change! Its become more of a spectaculair show, than a dull round in the ring. wearther this is a good thing is an ongoing argument for years im sure. And dont worry, as you can see, i love a good discussion :)
Floortjahh 2 years ago
the likes of which is required to initially acheive hyperflexion-although when speaking about hand heavy riding, hyperflexion is not the only subject, is damaging to the horse both pshyically and pshycologically. He mentions in his book Tug of War, as it is known in english, that hyperflexion is used mostly to achieve the desired swing in the back but all it creates is a large amount of movement, not swing. Besides, for generations-and yes , I am aware that hyperflexion is not a new..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
phenomenom, swing was achieved without hyperflexion. Also, salinero was not the horse I was referring to- it was sunrise. she is subtlely uneven in the trot movements and in the passage, but almost hopping lame in her trot half passes. Also, what is your opinion on the laziness, as such, of hyperflexion-trained horses behind. Bonfire is a fantastic example of this, I find, in his lack of ability to track up and for the disruption of the trot and walk sequence-he simply does not really..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
by the FEI as a serious fault. And I reckon that the changes in dressage are more down to the changes in the quality of the horse avaliable, the expansion in the sport and therefore the competitiveness and inventiveness of the riders required to win, the kur also play a big part in the sports entertainment value and this i more thanks to technology than anything else...do you not think that all this would be achieveable without having to ride with your horses nose on his chest ;-]
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Well, thats ur opinion, its hard to say something sensible about that, since that wasnt what this project was about. I believe thats a matter of taste. Afer all, classical principles were based on the taste of the old riders, to their perception of beauty. It can be done without rollkur, since this method is not effective on every horse. But the horses that can, are amazing athletes, give dressage another dimension, and win rightfully so. But thats just my taste, as long as no horse is hurt.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Comment removed
Floortjahh 2 years ago
maar ze heeft het paard niet in de proef toch zo? je mag toch zelf weten hoe je een paard traint? en zij zorgt dat het paard helemaal los is in het lijf... ze heeft er heus wel een reden voor anders heeft het helemaal geen zin... Paarden moet los zijn in hun hele lichaam dat krijg je niet voor elkaar als je ze alleen maar in de 'oprichting' rijdt En daarom doen ze dit om paarden los in hun lijf te krijgen.. En ze is al zo vaak kampioen geworden ze weet heus wel wat ze doet hoor!!!
nyynkee 2 years ago 2
schlimm schlimm :(
MalibuSaufa 2 years ago
I would love to see the rider stuff her face into her chest and run around for ten minuets. o-o
Abuse. That poor horse.
MissVM 2 years ago
If you would you that to Anky, she would prob break her back. If you were to do that to a gymnist, theyd love you helping them stretch. Anky is a pony, salinero is the most flexible gymnist out there.
Floortjahh 2 years ago
hey, i dont know if my comment got posted or not, so im gonna re-post it. i cant really state my opinion on rollkur properly b/c it wont come out right. go to Google, type in 'sustainable dressage', and click on the sustainable dressage website. and thats my opinion right there in a comprehensible form.
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago
I allready told you: ive devoted 2 years of my life investigating this subject for the FEI. Ofcourse i know what sustainable dressage is, and Centered Riding (ect.) for that matter. All I ask is: why not add Rollkur to these principles IF IT ISNT painfull.
Lets be clear that if it is painfull, as shown in 33 of the test cases, an incorrect rollkur, it should not be used.
If youre not reacting to a comment, theres no sense in reacting at all You can clearly read what youve allready posted
Floortjahh 2 years ago
Das ist ja übel. Wie wäre es mal mit vorwärt-abwärtsreiten und ohne Kandarre?
Zieht diese Reiter vom Pferd.... Egal ob Anky oder wer auch immer so reitet. Dagegen ist das Video, das ich mit ihr mit Idol aus Sydney kenne ja Pappenstiel.
virgo17091972 2 years ago
let's tie anky chin down to her brest and see how loud she skreams..
farbschlacht 2 years ago
And dressage and other english riders have the nerve to put down some western riders. Remember - glass houses and stones. This kind of riding in any discipline is shameful and disgraceful.
Lynn WV
angus0708 3 years ago 2
agreed
i dnt ryd western
but yeh it is disgracefull nd cruel
no ryders shuld insult other disiplins
i ryd bare back quite a bit nd get luked down on 4 it
but meh wateva
ryders shuld ryt 4 the luv of the horse not 2 win
elliexena 3 years ago
The other riders ride normal.. but she must go in hyperflexion..
bitch.
KevFan4evaa 3 years ago
OMG! That is disgraceful!
look at the poor, poor horse, look at the rider's position - there is no line from her elbow to the bit, see how she has to yank the reins out to the side!
The other horses look so much more relaxed and happy.
That is terrible!
showjumping10 3 years ago
It´s awfull to see how LONG anky makes the horse hold such position (almost touching the chest). I´d perhaps be more tolerant if it´d only be few second few times during one HOUR, but many minutes in a row when walking trotting + galloping??
Jefrma 3 years ago
ack. hate it. i'd honestly prefer my horse's head in my lap than this far behind the vertical (yes i'm over-exaggerating; i just mean high above the bit, or sommat)
Grahaminlove 3 years ago
this makes me sick. i dont know y they allowed her to even ride a horse like that. poor horse. this is not dressage, this is not art.
Aceyfacey3 3 years ago 2