The Lemon

[WarezDaBeef]

Fuck Canada!

[eimb1999]

@WarezDaBeef : Yeah? Well fuck you too! AND your mother!

[BaldylocksLife]

Medical care in Canada is not rationed. I had an acute case of leukemia and had some of the best treatment in the world including a stem cell transplant. Every procedure I had was exceptionally done and done immediate. Comparing our universal health care system to a lemon car behind the walls of the Soviet Union is an absurd scare tactic. I am alive and well today because of Canada's health care. I can see a Dr any time I need to, I can see any doctor I choose and noone can deny me treatment

[davidmesaaz]

But that doesn't mean that it isn't rationed. Their are waiting lists and the government of Canada does decide how many cases of X to do a year or how many cases of Y to do a year. Waiting lists is rationing.

The basic definition of economics is how do we ration basic resources. The real question is who rations best Governments with wait lists or individuals and markets?

[eimb1999]

@BaldylocksLife : Then you're lucky. Where I live here in Nova Scotia, I can't even get a local family doctor because they are all booked up. In other words, there aren't enough doctors to fill the need. In order to get a doctor here I have to drive an hour and a half away to Halifax. The US system is not as great any more because the government has regulated it to death. But since Baldylocks says he got good service up here, I guess we should just ignore the people who say they don't, right?

[F00D4TH0T]

Any person that shows up to ER gets healthcare...how stupid is it that you have to go to the ER if you have no other coverage. No wonder it costs the system more. It's called clinics. Second, they will also send you a bill for going to the ER and in many cases if you don't pay will hand your debt over to collections agencies. Not an easy thing to pay, if you can't afford insurance, and you owe 10's of thousands.

[jpindorski]

One of the most false statements on this subject is

"In the U.S., care is rationed on ability to pay - not health status."

That's total BS. Any person that shows up in an American ER will be treated regardless of ability to pay....and any that tells you any different is a liar.

[CalvinKostov]

Actually, the statement is half correct. Plus, a hospital in my area had to close down recently because of this ill-found mandate to treat everyone. Now no one can get treatment from that hospital because it is closed.

[DrChristineAdams]

This video describes for-profit health plan practices. In the U.S., care is rationed on ability to pay - not health status. Other industrialized nations with national health care are democracies. If their health care systems are so bad, they would change it. Taiwan copied Medicare. It's not like auto insurance where you can control your costs by a being careful driver. Health is not a commodity. We have limited control over our health. Healthy, nonsmokers still get cancer. I want HR 676.

[jpindorski]

If you want it then move to Canada...they can always use another quack.

[herbs814]

"rationing" based on ability to pay is INFINITELY better than government-controlled rationing. Private healthcare is ALWAYS better than government-controlled tax-and-spend vote buying schemes that masquerade as "universal healthcare"

[davidmesaaz]

If their health care systems are so bad, they would change it

they are changing their health care system.

h t t p: / / bit. ly/ 3wZy97

Medicare has a 38 trillion dollar deficit. The projected cost of medicare was 13 billion but its actual cost was 10x that much.

Medicare calculates doctors pay through a comically childish labor-theory-of-value analysis which is the foundation of Marxian economics. Is it any wonder then that many of the top doctors are refusing to accept medicare patients?

[Shark8707]

I am from a europe capitalist country and we have universal health care.

i understand the situation explained, but one case is not the all system. And in the USA one of six (43.6 million) don´t get any kind of medical treatement.

What is the problem with public health care? if like here and every place who have money can go to the private physician, but who don´t can´t afford, at least have a option.

[spikeslawson]

I had government "free" health care here in the US when I was in the military. I used to come out of pocket and go to private clinics so I could have control over my treatment. People don't just get turned away for lack of ability to pay. They will be stabilized and the cost of that treatment will be passed on to someone who can pay. If people who can't pay were sent packing then health care in the US wouldn't be so costly.

[herbs814]

any country condemned to the tyranny of "universal" government healthcare system is NOT capitalist.

Your inflated anti-capitalist statistics represent are laughingly biased. There are at most 8-10 million chronically uninsured. The 40+ million LIE includes people who do not need and do not want insurance, who can afford it but prefer not to play by insurance rules, who qualify for other government programs, who are in America illegally, and the temporarily uninsured. Hardly a "crisis" at all.

[davidmesaaz]

Yeah but what the don't tell you in Europe is that those 40 million people are not the same people year after year. If you lose your job you lose your insurance and you become uninsured temporarily. Another huge chunk of the uninsured are the young that don't have health insurance because many don't get sick that often. When you look at the chronically uninsured its just a fraction of the 40 million people that aren't covered by medicaid aren't insured by private philantrophy etc.

[aksarben123]

universal health care is great....until you get sick or get old or get put on a waiting list or get denied or get on other waiting lists or dying.

[socialmarketing]

I think some people honestly believe in the "no gatekeeper" theory of so-called "universal" health coverage, that all we need is for the government to run things and everyone will be able to get unlimited,

UNIVERSAL care for everything. Such a theory fails the most basic rules of economics, but tell enough people that the world is flat and well, you know the rest.

[hara001]

Good news; released today, the average wait time in an emergency room in Quebec decreased from 16.23 hours to 16.12 hours in 1 year. I am very happy to hear we are making progress for the first time in 30+ years thanks to private healthcare.

[hara001]

but montreal (the largest city) still ranks the lowest unfortunetely with 35.26 hours average wait times in emergency room. These are government released figures, today.

[hara001]

I am amazed that after the supreme court of canada strucked down our health care system on the grounds that it failed in providing health care, american still looks up to us. You can read the jugement of the court on their website. To sum it up: "Access to a waiting is not access to healthcare. The defendant showed that private healthcare delivered results in a timely fashion regarding the case of Mr. Chouillard". The court then gave the governement 1 year to legalize private healthcare.

[hara001]

The government threatened the court to change the constitution to explicitely support nationnalized healthcare. Thankfully it didnt. Therefore Canada will get an americanized healthcare system, FINALLY. That court ruling happenned 2 years ago and the waiting lists are ALREADY starting to shorten, for the first time in 34 years! Finaly some progress. (The decition applies only to Quebec tho -were I live- so the rest of the country still have to head south for a little while longer)

[dazzaclap]

Strange logic, using the trabant as a metaphor. Why not instead look at the results achieved in universal health care systems versus the American model. Sure on some counts the American system is better, but overall Universal HC beats your system hands down.

[freespeechcure]

Using the Trabant is a transparent and pathetic appeal to anti-communism ideology.

Trouble there is that UHC bears little semblance to communism and the socialist element is primarily that of government acting as single-payer.

Governments fund, but do not operate healthcare under socialized medicine.

The profiteers distort otherwise.

[LittleHarborViews]

oh geez, that would be funny if it weren't so scary.

[IguanaNY]

Two things I do know: 1) if people do nothing, it will happen, and we will have this here! 2 Where will the sick Canadians go then? where will we go then??

Some could fix this with ease, free of the intervention and interference of Government fighting against the free market, and we would emerge with a new model where I'm sure would cost less, be way more preventative in nature allowing for fewer trips to en ER.

[IguanaNY]

The Insurers should really consider offering up a National Level plan for the uninsured? Between them and the Hospitals possibly in cooperation could begin to work on correctly addressing our health care model which should be steered towards a free market fix, one by those best equipped do do so?

[IguanaNY]

They simply want to increase their size and control.

What I am not understanding at this point is why those Doctors/Nurses/Hospital leaders saying with one LOUD voice by now "no, no, no? I don't get that at all! unless it has to do with them fearing the wrath of the AMA? is the AMA in favor of this? Im sure they have thought about the increase in profits and monopoly they could gain from such a system?

[IguanaNY]

Insurance Companies should and could i bring us National pla, It would be a GREAT move for them and it would be Free of government!. They would be seen as humanitarian, bwah. But wait it is a good business decision for them as well. They would then have a HUGE pool of money and the same old group plan logic would apply, less expensive to offer. The solution(s) to Affordable Healthcare for all in the USA is much simpler then the government pretends.

[freespeechcure]

A comprehensive plan with all covered is what UHC is all about.

Like any group plan it succeeds with the most participants contributing into a single-pool; an obvious example of strength in numbers.

The current multi-pool, or multi-insurers are less efficient, driving premiums up.

With a single-pool, naturally and realistically, because some could not afford to contribute, the principle of subsidization comes in and subsequent resentment from a few for this. Not exactly constructive.

[hara001]

freespeechcure you are so wrong. Here in Canada, we are lacking 10 years in adoptiong of new treatments because the single insurance provider doesnt compeet with anyone, therefore it can select which treatment is convers and which it doesnt. Yes the voters are okay with this because 95% of them are healthy. The healthy decides how much money should go for the sick! Only when Canadians get sick do they want to increase taxes to pay for healthcare -all sick wants to-.

[freespeechcure]

I don't question that the very best medical treatment possible is available in the USA.

Of course, it is the best money can buy.

And that is the problem. While plastic surgeons are raking it in doing boob jobs and botox injections for the affluent, the destitute are dying.

If Canadians prefer the American system, it is a short trip across the border as long as their pocket-book allows it.

Something tells me that isn't everyone.

[hara001]

I have a bening tumour in my leg that can turn malignant at any given time. Since its bening and therefore non-urgent, my waiting time is 4.5 years - no exgagerration. The operation costs 300$. I may go south to get it removed but if I do, I won't get a tax cut ;)

I can buy all sorts of good foods, cars, ipods, cigarres, alchool , etc but my government doesnt allow me to spend any of it on the most important of it all: my health. I can only spend my money on things that will ruin my health.

[freespeechcure]

So, do you want a system that would allow you to walk into a doctors office, lay down your 300 dollars and have your benign growth removed? If so, and it is so worrisome to you, why haven't you gone to the US to have this done already?

If Canada adapts more privatization and a two, or multi-tiered system according to your wealth, where would that leave you, or those with less wealth.

Still sick and waiting?

While the wealthy get faster treatment?

Is this the system you want?

[hara001]

It with leave us at the same level of EVERY country in western europe with a parallel private-public system. Healthy, quick and efficient. SWEDEN, NORWAY, FINLAND, FRANCE, SPAIN, ITALY, etc. All have better health than either canada or the US.

"where would that leave you, or those with less wealth.

Still sick and waiting?"

The countries I mentionned have the same number of doctors as we do, but they have no wait time. Extra private money helps everyone.

[freespeechcure]

Canada ranks way ahead of the USA when it comes to healthcare because of reduced overall cost and universality.

You didn't answer my question. If you are willing to pay for your medical treatment directly out of your pocket, what's stopping you from getting your growth removed a short distance away in the U.S.?

Private healthcare is as close as the nearest American city, if that's what you want.

You better have deep pockets though.

[hara001]

Nothing, its what im doing next month.

[hara001]

Nothing, its what i'm doing next month. Which is why I am so worried; if you scrap your system too much, I'll have no where to go.

[freespeechcure]

HaHa.

Don't worry.

The USA will be the last country in the western industrialized world to offer universal access to healthcare,..whenever that happens. It won't be soon, but there is a large consensus of desire for it, other than the scandalously profitable insurance industry.

But there will always be profiteers offering medical services in the USA.

Rest assured.

If I was you, I'd be more concerned with patching up the admirable Canadian system.

[lonewolf1369]

ohh, so now it's "if poor people have to be on waiting lists, then so do rich people. Rich people shouldn't have the opportunity to pay for themselves if poor people can't" That's your argument? How Soviet of you...

Fact is socialized healthcare ALWAYS leads to waiting lists and rationed care, leading to thousands of deaths

[DrBuzz0]

Okay, if you kill yourself I promise to have your body turned into a delicious high protein meal for many starving kids.

[Noctroler]

I would die, so that many could live. How about you? Regardless of what works, I'd rather die trying to do the right thing than live whilst others fucking rot.

[EasyEs]

As a Canadian I can tell you that the only time we say we are happy with our health care is when we can use it as a club to bash the Americans with.

[JME1282]

you mean its a weapon and not a tool to help people? tee hee hee i thought you would appreciate that. it was meant to make u laugh

[JLBSFAGENT]

Let's assume it costs a minimum of $250.00 for insurance companies, or the government, to process any health claim (the same expense for both), BEFORE paying the medical bill -- and the client submits a $45.00 prescription bill. Multiply this example a few million times and tell me who is going to pay for it?

[JLBSFAGENT]

The question is paying the bill for the best medical care, if it is available to all.  I do not want the government rationing care, or telling me I can't even purchase the care I want. Private health insurance not an unnecessary step, and the cost is not an arbitrary figure. The cost of high quality healthcare in the US is not going to drop by eliminating insurance companies and interjecting socialized medicine.

[JLBSFAGENT]

NextDoor give it up, I earn less than 5% of my income from health insurance products. Once more you are wrong, I help little old ladies across the street for free, all of them as they are getting off a bus from Canada seeking quality, un-rationed healthcare. I assume you worked in the healthcare field for free, since you believe earning a living from anything associated with healthcare is evil in your closed mind.

[nextdoornorth]

I guess I can understand your believing that you are helping people receive healthcare, because under the U.S. system that's how it's done.

However, I know it is possible to provide essential medical services without having to go through the unnecessary step of purchasing costly private insurance.

What is at issue is the fundamental relation between healthcare services and healthcare insurance.

And as a matter of fact, I did begin as a volunteer working in healthcare.

[JLBSFAGENT]

NextDoor---you want to know the true differnece betwwen you and me? You want to talk theory about helping people, while I am truly in the trenches doing the job. While you are at it, say thank you for the billions fo dollars of defense we provide Canada.

[nextdoornorth]

You are a health insurance agent. You sell health insurance You're helping yourself. I'll bet you charge little old ladies to help them across the street.

What are your thoughts regarding Eisenhouwer's parting warning: 'Beware the military-industrial complex' ?  Have his words not come to be realized?

btw, my experience comes from working in healthcare.

[IrrigatedPancake]

The billions in defense is wasted money, but I agree that anyone that tries to practically provide health care to themselves and others will conclude that a centrally managed system is a terrible idea. There's too much inconsistency in the world.

[JLBSFAGENT]

NextDoor you are a hopeless relic of failed socialism. Believe your lies and live in La La land

[JLBSFAGENT]

NEXT DOOR, you also take a shot at Corporate profit. The company I work for is a Mutual company meaning the policyholders "own" the company. When our company has earnings above wht THE GOVERNMENT requires by law we hold in reserve to pay claims, we return any excess earnings to our clients as dividends. We recently sent checks for millions of dollars because of less than expected claims, to our clients. Just ticks you off to always be wrong, doesn't it?

[nextdoornorth]

What ticks me off is the survivalist/capitalist mentality that is so willing to turn its back on so many people. The U.S. is bankrupting itself on military spending while levies and bridges and healthcare systems are collapsing.

And you can go on and on about how much insurance companies do their best to compete, but this ignores the fact that they are an unnecessary intermediary when it comes to healthcare.

[JME1282]

Well if the govt is soley responsible for my healthcare and they make a mistake, make me worse off at the benefit of another, and put me in jail for the mere crime of trying to save my own life, and if i resist they come with guns, is that moral or compassionate? why should i at the point of a gun be forced to pay someone elses bills?

[freespeechcure]

This description of socialized medicine is grossly distorted and based on ignorance.

The rational perception is one of comfort to be taken from knowing that your healthcare needs are being assured and you will not be forced into bankruptcy due to major illness or excessive insurance costs.

[JME1282]

thanks for your perspective but it doesnt really answer my question, it just calls me ignorant.

[freespeechcure]

The answer to your question is the same as why anyone is required to pay taxes that benefit society as a whole.

This is part of the social contract implicit in a democratic society. If we could cherry-pick which services we are willing to support from our taxes the system would collapse.

If you wish to avoid personal taxation completely you are best to find a desserted island to live on or a country with minimal public services.

[JME1282]

ok fair enough. However, if i do not get what i am promised by the government may i sue them? If the government doesnt live up to its end of the bargain do i have a valid greivence.

I would for the record prefer a system of taxation that only takes 10% from us. everybody pays a tenth. any more may be considered patriotic donations.

[freespeechcure]

How about simply demanding that taxes be applied to domestic needs such as healthcare and not war?

This would bring taxes down big-time.

The Iraq invasion and occupation has cost 1.5 trillion dollars or 20K for every American family and killed a minimum of 100k innocent citizens defending their homeland. This military madness is now bankrupting America.

[howtogrill1]

Thats why im voting for Ron Paul.

[howtogrill1]

The more taxes the less the economy grows, the more government control the worse off a system becomes, the more people become dependant on the state the less freedom they have. What do you not understand about the evils of socialism, maybe you should just go ahead and move to Venezuela, you would get along good with chavez. The more government the less freedom.

[howtogrill1]

ya and the people who died while waiting im sure they feel good at the fact they did not go bank rupt. America is a capitalist free market nation. This is what has made America great. You liberals more and more want to demand others to pay for your bills. Get insurance through your job you flake and stop demanding that strangers pay for your shortcomings.

[freespeechcure]

What is 'great' about standing by while 18,000 die due to non-treatment?

And what could be flakier than preferring to unnecessarily spend 15% GDP on a system that wastes 1/3 on profit and administration?

There's nothing flakey about wanting an efficient process where healthcare access is there for everyone and no one is forced into bankruptcy. A flake refuses to stand-up to corporate greed and thievery. As a doctor, Ron Paul is looking out for Ron Paul.

[lonewolf1369]

you're an idiot. You think there won't be 18000 people that will die if national healthcare comes? Already Canadians are dying on waiting lists, and there's only 30 million of us. Hahah, it's precisely profit and cost cutting that REDUCES administration costs and makes cheaper prices, with government the bureaucracy alone costs millions of dollars let alone the actual treatment. National healthcare always costs billions of dollars it always ends up that way because it's easy tax extortion

[eimb1999]

@lonewolf1369 : Exactly! BTW, if you want to see this explained a lot more, read the book "The Trouble With Canada... Still" by William D. Gairdner. He goes into extensive detail about this.

[IrrigatedPancake]

The US is not a free market nation. We talk, but we do not practice, and the medical industry is especially not free market. If it was, there would not be so many complaints about prices. They would be lower.

I understand your sentiment. I just wanted to point out that no one should be arguing for what we have - 50% socialism.

[freespeechcure]

The biggest culprit in the excessive cost of healthcare is the insurers, acting as gatekeepers.

The convoluted underwriting process with deductibles, co-pays, denials for pre-existing conditions and major limitations are in place to look out for the insurers interests first.

All the while wastefully resulting in fantastically high monthly premiums and an administrative cost that amounts to 1/3 of the total healthcare cost.

Little wonder that so many opt out, reducing the 'pool input'.

[IrrigatedPancake]

Insurance is expensive because a lot of people want it and it's not easy to provide. A lot of people want it because medical care is very expensive. It's hard to provide also because medical care is expensive.

The practices you mentioned will certainly yield the feeling of injustice for many people on the edges of the conditions of insurance contracts. However, they do not have a lot to do with the high price of the medical care which necessitates insurance for many people.

[IrrigatedPancake]

The explaination of that is less simple because it has been developing in small steps for the last 100 years. It's worth understanding, though, to be able to make informed decisions about this.

I'll send you an article that does a good job of explaining this. It's not short, but I encourage you to read the whole thing because there is a whole area that is not being looked at in this debate.

[freespeechcure]

Sorry for the delay.

I agree very much with the principles of the article.

Corporatism as it applies to the medical profession and the insurance industry explains the high cost of HC and the subsequent reduced accessibility.

The consequences are needless deaths, bankruptcies and class warfare/tension/crime.

[IrrigatedPancake]

The levees were around for a long time. They saw Vietnam go by. That whole time people down here were saying they were not good enough, but when you don't live here (the army corp of engineers people did not live here) you tend to care a little more about doing what you must to get a pay check for your own home and family. Mean while, those who were most incentivised (the people who lived here) to build or oversee construction of the levees, were not allowed to do so.

[IrrigatedPancake]

Imagine that. Somehow letting people do what they are incentivised to do by what's clearly in their best interests might have actually helped everyone.

[JLBSFAGENT]

NextDoor, you obviously simply hate insurance companies, and just as obvious have no clue that competition between insurance companies, just as for other businesses, keep premiums as low as possible. The high cost of the best healthcare is the challenge, not insurance companies trying to provide an affordable product to cover a person's catastrophis loss. Go worship your beloved second rate socialism.

[JLBSFAGENT]

NextDoor stop twisting my words. I never said insurance companies run the system. I suggested you would have to find something to run a government controlled healthcare system, and implied insurance companies would have the expertise to do the job.

[nextdoornorth]

Oh, and what a great job they are doing now.

Charging premiums so high that 47 million either can't afford them or risk going without.

And administering convoluted formulas of deductibles, shared pay, pre-existing conditions etc. etc. all with the end purpose of creating a corporate profit of course.

The 'expertise' is that of milking as much money out of their 'customers' as possible.

[RyderSpearmann]

What makes you think that insurance payment methods are automatically the best method for all? Perhaps the 47M should NOT be paying via insurance, and instead paying as they go? Many people simply don't want insurance... for anything... their car, their apartment, or medicine. They just don't care or believe in paying money to insurance companies, period. Young people often don't see the point.

[johnebii]

Watch Stuart Browning's film on the uninsured in America. The vast majorit are either temporarily uninsured or uninsured by choice. No one in America is truly uninsured. Every one of the fifty states requires hospitals to provide emergency and critical (including hospitalization, etc.) to anyone who presents themselves at an ER REGARDLESS OF ABILITY TO PAY.

And btw, if you think ins. co's are unnecarry intermediaries, what do you think the government would be?

[johnebii]

sorry... spelling error

[JLBSFAGENT]

NextDoor, never assume you know anything about me. I do care a great deal about those less fortunate and I am very successful in my business because my clients know and appreciate how much I do care about them. Individual healthcare is ALL ABOUT keeping the decision between doctor and patient, and out of government agencies. Just stay in Canada, and I sincerely hope you never need catostrophic medical coverage from your second rate system.

[JLBSFAGENT]

Just curious, but are you planning on paying someone to run your single payer system, uh just like an insurance company? Also, do you plan to allow doctors, nurses, drug companies, and hospitals charge what they feel is appropriate to cover their expenses and also make a living? Or is your government single payer system going to dictate what it will pay, like is currently does with Medicare? Like you said, your bottomline is care, not cash.

[nextdoornorth]

Kinda silly questions there.

Of course medicare is administered. Somewhat telling that you refer to insurance companies as 'running' the system. While deciding who gets covered they are exercising God-like control over peoples lives. Decisions better made between patients and their doctors.

And reasonable fees are pre-negotiated. This is how the rest of the civilized world is doing it.

[JLBSFAGENT]

Rod - yes I am referring to a record. The record capatalism has established in the US, building the strongest economy in the world. Competition in the marketplace is survival of the fittest, and never permits a "racket, bleeding people with astronimical premiums", as NextDoor claims.  We have challenges to address in the healthcare arena, but insurance companies are not the big problem. They are simply a convenient target.

[nextdoornorth]

Your boasting of the success of American capitalism and survival of the fittest explains why you care little if so many are unable to receive medical treatment.

You might make it in the business world, but I can't see you having anything worthwhile to contribute to healthcare.

[JLBSFAGENT]

NextDoor & Rod - Capitalism is a proven success, and repeatedly government control and socialism have failed miserably. If your insurance company has no heart, or morality - THEN SWITCH, which a government controlled "racket (your words)" would not allow. Big Brother would force you to pay for their only option. I would like to pick what is best for me, thank you.

[JLBSFAGENT]

Next Door - it just occurred to me, there has been a government controlled monopoly that resulted in success, and it took profit completely out of the picture -- builing the pyramids of Egypt. One minor challenge as we consider single payer healthcare at a "lower cost" -- we would have to get around the sticky issue of slave labor.

[JLBSFAGENT]

There is another word for single payer - monopoly. Do you really believe a government controlled monopoly will provide a high quality, efficiently run healthcare system - everyone paying a lower premium for better medical coverage than we now have available -- all this controlled, supervised, and run by government appointees and employees. You have got to be joking.

[JLBSFAGENT]

A safety net is needed for those without the means to pay for healthcare themselves. Force the VAST majority to give up their chosen major medical coverage, the premium priced as low as possible due to competition among companies in the marketplace, no thank you. Profit re-directed??? Ever heard of government waste and excess? If an insurance company is inefficient, it goes out of business.

[nextdoornorth]

Americans are paying way too much and getting way too little for their money.

Insurance corporations are a racket that is bleeding people with astronomical monthly premiums that adds up to far more than is required to provide care to everyone.

Capitalism doesn't belong in healthcare. It has no heart or morality.

The botomline must be care not cash.

[JLBSFAGENT]

Small fact to wrap your head around - any insurance policy is a legal contract, paying out legitimate claim dollars. The notion insurance "bean-counters" try to figure out ways to deny promised coverage is a ridicuous conclusion. Plaintiff attorneys want you to believe you need them to settle every claim.  Insurance companies are not perfect, but they are a God-send to millions who suffer catastrophic losses, and were made whole again.

[nextdoornorth]

It may very well be a contract, but the good it may do is limited to those with the means to begin with.

Universal access, single payer makes everyone a policy holder at less cost per person without profit getting re-directed anywhere. No one is at risk of bankruptcy due to non-coverage or disputed claims.

A much greater Godsend.

[JLBSFAGENT]

I didn't say I earned a living selling healthcare insurance, it is a small portion of what I do. I said I have esperience and firsthand knowledge of what has really occurred over the past 25 years, and see clearly why not to support a system that is a dismal failure. My head is just fine thank-you. If free market healthcare is not your cup of tea, fine -- but please don't push for dismantling the best healthcare system in the world.

[JLBSFAGENT]

I once had an employee who is a Canadian citizen with their single payer healthcare. She took a week off work to go have a skin cancer removed from her face. She returned untreated - she could not get in to see the right surgeon, only a surgeon who wanted to basically remove half her face. She lived with a skin cancer, and returned to Canada 2 months later to see the correct doctor. Any comment?

[nextdoornorth]

The fact that you earned your living selling healthcare insurance for twenty-five years explains why you cannot get your head around eliminating it.

[JLBSFAGENT]

Bean counter insurance companies denying coverage?? Get real. Insurance companies do not want sued. They will provide the coverage offered in their contract. If you have a professional insurance agent, they will guide you to the company and coverage you want. Oops, I forgot you probabely want to eliminate the professional insurance agent "middle man", and have the government, or the internet tell you what you will get and explain your only option from a single payor system.

[JLBSFAGENT]

DenverDave, I live in the US, pay taxes, provide health insurance to employess and work hard to make a living. I do not want the government to "take care" of me, and keep both my feet firmly planted on the ground. You have your head in the clouds expecting the government to miraculously be effective running the health care industry. Find a Veteran and ask them why they don't go to the government sponsored VA facilities for government provided care.

[JLBSFAGENT]

Couple that with attorneys suing every doctor and drug company in sight, and you have the high cost medical services offered today. Competition and the free market work. You still salivating over that Trivant single payer auto?

[JLBSFAGENT]

I have worked as an insurance agent for 25 years and see firsthand how competition among companies works to keep costs low to the consumer. Competition works. Only when government get involved telling companies to take all comers and extend ocverage excluded from the contract did companies start GETTING OUT of the health insurance business.

[DenverDave2]

"Free market insurance works, if government regulation and controls stay out of the way." What planet are you on? The health insurance industry dinosaur rations care by denying coverage through the underwriting process. We've seen Medicare work fairly well, why not extend it to cover everyone and take the 20 to 30% of our health care dollars flowing through insurance companies now taken out of the system by the dinosaur and use it to ... here's an idea - provide health care.

[JLBSFAGENT]

Compared to simply dying because single payer system coverage is rationed?

[nextdoornorth]

And DenverDave2 hits the nail on the head; rationing already is taking place by bean-counting insurance desk-jockies who have a bottomline that means they are compelled to deny pay-outs as much as possible.

Again, why should the risk of bankruptcy go hand in hand with illness?

[JLBSFAGENT]

Watch "The Lemon" again. Think of the wide variety of autos avaialable in the marketplace in the US. The same can be said for health insurance products. You purchase the coverage you can afford, or want, and if you can't afford health insurance, you can get above average medical care, by world standards, for free. The question isn't medical care, it is the best medical care being available to all. Simply isn't possible.

[nextdoornorth]

Nobody says anything about 'free' care. It's about spreading the cost evenly and fairly through a society that doesn't want to have Cadillac service for a few, Chevy for most and bare feet for lots.

There seems to be no dispute regarding the statistic that half of all personal bankruptcies in the US are due to unpayable medical bills.

Geting sick should not be compounded by the fear of losing everything you own.

This doesn't happen with a universal access, single-payer system.

[JLBSFAGENT]

The sole purpose of insurance is spreading risk across a large number of people so it is affordable by premium for all. Free market insurance works, if government regulation and controls stay out of the way. There is no BARE FEET FOR THE LOTS, get over it. Someone chooses not pay for any coverage for themselves and get a flat screen TV, better house, then whine because they can't pay for a catastrophic illness. Why should I subsidize their bad choices?

[nextdoornorth]

to JLBSFAGENT: I'm glad you understand the principle of group insurance, spreading the cost and risk across a large number of people so it is affordable for all.

Because that is exactly what single-payer, universal access is all about. Only it means an entire country, or state, rather than a variety of corporate structured insurers that must meet the need to profit.

A single-payer system absolutely does keep the cost down for everyone.

[JustJoelyouassclown]

It keeps the cost down by rationing services and creating artificial price controls. There are MANY things that could be done in the us to lower costs, and none involve making it subsidized.

[w738]

I'd like to see you actually refute this video with facts of your own, also.

[nextdoornorth]

How about 18 thousand people per year dying due to non-treatment in the U.S. ?

How about half of all personal bankruptcies in the last thiry years due to un-payable medical bills ?

All thanks to Nixon's bringing in for-profit HMO's.

-

[lizzielou73]

I don't know how many Canadians die waiting for care or through lacking necessart care in Canada, but I'm sure the numbers are high. Nova Scotia has decided against providing Avastin as have many other provinces. Ironically, one of the poorest provinces with the most heart Newfoundland is covering Avastin and many other cancer meds that many other provinces are not. Google, "Nova Scotians for the Approval of Avastin."

[w738]

Mr. Browning is an independent film-maker who recieves no funding whatsoever from the health-care industry. And by the way, the U.S. healthcare system is not a free-market system.

[nextdoornorth]

The growing movement towards socialized non-profit healthcare can expect increasing resistance and dis-information such as this video. There are literally billions of dollars behind it.

[nextdoornorth]

Wonderful info-mercial to promote private, for-profit healthcare in Canada. And terrific fear-mongering piece of propaganda to protect profiteering U.S. doctors and insurers.

Only thing missing was Ed Mcmahon.

The doctor in Kelowna seemed like a slug who likely didn't adequately convey the urgency of that woman's need. I'm guessing he'd love to be part of a private clinic there.

For every bad anecdote like that in Canada, there are a hundred in the U.S.

[lizzielou73]

I live in Canada and have a severe lung condition that I was born with. From the start, its been a fight to get specialized respiratory care. At this time my lungs are not being followed by a lung specialist despite the fact that I require oxygen and monthly IV antibiotics, etc.

[lizzielou73]

Mr. Browning's videos are indeed accurate. If you need to verify my info. Click on my name (lizzielou). My family and I have years of experience with the Canadian system. Mrs. Healy's doctor is honest and I applaud him for coming forward.

[nextdoornorth]

It's not difficult to understand someone resorting to private medicine in the U.S.if they aren't getting what they need in Canada.

But if you believe we would be better of with two-tiered care in Canada, you are mistaken. Even with its flaws, Canadians are proud of the fact that we provide universal access and keep the costs down with a single-payer system.

Again, for every bad story about Canadian treatment, there are a hundred in the U.S.

[lizzielou73]

We should have a choice in Canada. If persons living in European countries like Germany can at least have a choice of having private care (and more so) than we currently have in Canada why is this not possible here? Secondly, if we had truly universal care, one would think that "all"necessary meds. and procedures would be fully covered e.g. Avastin.

[nextdoornorth]

I agree, prescriptions and even dental care could be better accessed under a medicare system in Canada. We do have subsidies for some Rx's now due to income.

And as far as wishing to have the private option, it now exists by travelling a short distance to the states and paying an arm and a leg.

Or would you rather pay an arm and a leg here?

[lizzielou73]

No, I'd rather have a choice in Canada where my family and friends reside. I'm already paying an arm and a leg in taxes and also will be for my upcoming care. This fall I'm travelling to the US for care that I'm unable to access in Canada even though its available here, but my condition falls through the "cracks" which is incredibly frustrating, because the care is available in Canada. We need choice. Its hard for me to travel a long distance due to my oxygen and other medical needs.

[nextdoornorth]

If you don't mind, how does your condition 'fall through the cracks' ?

[lizzielou73]

Pt.1

To make a long story short - Being denied follow up and specialised respiratory care in a cystic fibrosis (CF) clinic (s) for a rare (atypical) form of cystic fibrosis diagnosed through specialised testing at Sick Kids. My lungs have developed significant and severe lung damage that could have been prevented through aggressive treatment that was denied to me. Now, I need a double lung transplant, and as a child (well into my teens) I was accused of "faking" my lung disease.

[lizzielou73]

Pt. 2

Until I landed in the ICU in respiratory failure with a severe Pseudomonas lung infections (common in CF and bronchiectasis). I had been, for some years, been told my illness was all in my head when it was all in my lungs, sinuses, etc. My parents almost lost me that night. Still ... fighting for care, because respiratory specialist "refuse" to provide follow up care. My MLA (gov't) official is aware of my situation.

[lizzielou73]

Pt. 3

My family doctor is appalled, but GPs have little power, so my severe condition - lungs, sinuses, arthritis (associated with infections), and milder digestive problems, etc are treated by my GP when I should be followed by respirology and should have access to a CF clinic according to my doctor. Often when I need a hospital bed for pnuemonia its impossible to get one. Our hospital is always in code purple ... meaning no beds available.

[lizzielou73]

I hope nextdoornorth that I have answered your question about my falling through the cracks. It's difficult to condense a complicated situation to meet youtube's comment limits, but I have tried. Its like trying to condense a long book (a lifetime) into a few statements

[nextdoornorth]

Hearing your story, I have no doubt that our Cdn system failed you.

I ask you now, if you believe that you would have been better served by a private for profit healthcare provider within Canada ?

Or, could an advocate/lawyer succeeded in obtaining your required treatment in Canada ?

[JLBSFAGENT]

Are you serious? Have a lawyer take a case to litagation in Canada, while the patient waits for weeks for verdict? Socialized, rationed medicical services is a failure. Show me one time someone seeking and needing immediate medical services in the US has been turned away by a hospital.

[nextdoornorth]

lizzielou73's struggle to receive the treatment she required has spanned a lifetime.

My understanding is that 18,000 people die each year in the states because they are 'turned away'.

[JLBSFAGENT]

Any human being on US soil only has to walk into an Emergency Room and the hospital is required by law to treat them, regardless of their Nationality, or ability to pay. No pay up front, no provide proof of insurance, nothing required to receive healthcare. People being turned away and dying is a lie.

[nextdoornorth]

That may be true for emergent cases involving trauma.

However, people with chronic conditions requiring treatment and unable to pay for it appear to be the ones, eighteen-thousand ones, who are dying.

This is stated in Michael Moore's film, and you are the first person I've encountered in the past five weeks since it came out to challenge that fact.

How about the half of all personal bankruptcies being due to unpayable medical bills ?

[JLBSFAGENT]

If you even remotely beleive what Michael Moore states in SICKO, you are not in touch with truth and reality. For those less fortunate financially in the US, or those who are in bankrupcy, there is Medicaid who will provide medical coverage. Is the medical coverage equal to all - NO. Is it possible in the REAL world for all to have the best possible medical care provided free by the government - NO.

[nextdoornorth]

I doubt very much if the arm and leg taxes you pay in Canada (for all purposes) come close to the cost of treatment in the U.S.

[lizzielou73]

Considering, that our healthcare system is costing me years of lost wages, is vastly restricting my quality of life (QOL), and is killing me at a very premature age by denying to me proper specialized respiratory.... I'd say that paying high taxes and receiving substandard care is costing me much more than what I'd be paying in the US (and yes, American healthcare is expensive, but our system is literally taking away my dreams and killing me. )

[lizzielou73]

Second part ...

Unless, you have advanced lung disease, as I have this is something that you cannot possibly understand.

[JustJoelyouassclown]

My sympathies lizzie, I hope the US can/has helped you out.

[snipfer]

These are a great bunch of vids. I hope that when you start selling the DVD you ship these to Europe. Here in Spain we have a similar thing going on.

[lizzielou73]

There are also plenty of success stories in the US. Thanks for making this video Stuart. Its great and shows the reality of Canadian healthcare for far too many Canadians.

[IMundy]

Stuart, there are plenty of success stories, I encourage you to look for one, and if you can't find one...I'll tell you my own.

[DevSodDribble]

I sat through Mr. Moore's 'Sicko' knowing that it couldn't be the whole story. I really wish people who take films like that as gospel would take the time to investigate the other side. Videos like this are an important first step. Thanks.

[JonasSalk]

Wonderful video. Thank you.