SeaBird－Derby Stakes

[DanielSong39]

Sea Bird is obviously very good and beats large fields, but I just don't see that explosiveness that would warrant the 145 Timeform rating.

By this standard Secretariat's Belmont would be a 160 or so.

[ThefightingCelt]

@DanielSong39 Watch Pathes colour film where you will see SB;s magnificent acceleration in its full glory. Sea Bird's trainer was not interested in breaking time records. He wanted Sea Bird to win his races and as comfortably as possible, which he did- that was the only consideration. This was a horse that had gears to burn and whom Pat Glennon ( his jockey ) said never used half of them. He was a monster. Secretariat would never have beaten Sea Bird on turf.

[bgardiner2000]

@DanielSong39 151-153 would have been his projected Timeform rating as rscarbro correctly points out. However, timeform gave him a 144 rating? So it appears that they changed the rules to accommodate Secretariat's achievements? IMO these ratings are peak performance ratings (more or less). And on this basis alone you could not rate Seabird above Secretariat.

[ThefightingCelt]

Secretariat;s official Timeform figure is actually 144 - one pound behind Sea Bird.

[rscarbro100]

@ThefightingCelt Not true. You add a Beyer speed rating 12 to 14 points to get to a Timeform rating. 139 Beyer equals 151 or 153 Tiemform. Thats the 'Facts'.

[tonymalibu]

that was a steam train coming down the track, the head carriage was rock solid and what an engine!

[davylad12]

wow

[Xpand09]

Can ask if Fur Elise is sweeter than September in same mway to compare horses from different continents or eras. Media like to champion todays performers as the best ever. On US drug usage, may I point out the US entrepreneurs overcame that by having Vincent look after drugged up horses for classic wins and stud pay offs.

May still be happening now with US breds based in Ireland. People accept their success because they believe the hype associated with "whizz" trainers and breeds.

[tarqogan]

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Sea Bird II was the greatest thoroughbred of the 20th century par excellence.

[1948BigCy]

@tarqogan : He only ran 8 races in two years, and lost one. He was pampered more than today's horses.

The Bid had TWO 10 race win streaks.

And where are the fractions?? The English must be barbarians!! How can we compare him to other horses without knowing the absolute time??

[tarqogan]

1948BigCy, I assume by The Bid you are refering to Spectacular Bid. Most Europeans, including the barbarian English , as you disparagingly term them, DON'T rate horses who race on dirt or through mud, we prefer to see horses perform on a more natural surface. On the extremely rare occasion that an American horse crosses the Atlantic it is usually beaten when racing on grass. Nor do we allow European horses to race when they are pumped full of drugs.

[1948BigCy]

My good man, my comment was tongue in cheek. I love the English. Secretariat is considered by most Americans as an equine god mainly because of his times, especially his NWR Belmont, even though his win % was 75%. I maintain that absolute time is incidental in a horse race; it is relative time that counts. I mentioned that many English races are not even timed. Actually, WE are the pimply faced teenaged barbarians; the English remain at the top of the heap....

[tarqogan]

Just as a footnote to my last post, BigCy.

Of course I accept that Secretariat was one of the all time great US thoroughbreds,along with Man O' War and Citation. Secretariat's record is second to none and, although not being too conversant with the US racing scene, I do appreciate that most Americans and quite a few Europeans consider him the supreme champion. The best I have ever witnessed was Sea Bird, and although highly strung, all his wins were totally effortless, simply breathtaking.

[1948BigCy]

@tarqogan Secretariat is partly myth. His record is 21 starts, 16 wins, and he lost 3 of 12 as a three year old. Not real impressive. MOW and Cy are much better.

To run only 5 times, in the 1960's, as a 3yo, is light racing in America, altho today, it is acceptable. I guess you have fewer races than here. We have hundreds. It seems impossible to compare USA and Continental horses...there are so many differences. Ribot & Sea Bird seem mucho bully!!!

[tarqogan]

I obviously got the wrong end of the stick,1984BigCy, for which I apologise unreservedly. I am happy to say that my wife and I have visited the US on holiday regularly since 1999 and I have to say, hand on heart , that we have always enjoyed our holidays. ALL the American people we have come in contact with have been friendly, hospitable and extremely accomodating. In fact, BigCy, since 1999 the US is the only country that interests us. Personally I think the US is the best country on earth.

[1948BigCy]

@tarqogan Apology unnecessary:-) Having lived here all my life, I'd like to leave. Ireland maybe. New Yorkers, at least, seem very nice to tourists. I live in CA now. USA has beautiful scenery, etc., but lacks the history that the Continent has.

Anyway, I understand your attitude towards horseracing here and there. It simply points out again how ludicrous it is to consider absolute time/records the ultimate way to judge a horse's worth...

[tarqogan]

Isn't that strange,1948BigCy. You are contemplating a move to Ireland; and my wife and I would love to move to the US( the Southwest). Many Britons have become disenchanted with this country; I've never before heard so many people complaining about how this country is letting them down. Even the weather, which has always been a talking point, seems to have deteriorated to the extent that we have much wetter summers and colder winters. We just love the temperatures you experience in California.

[1948BigCy]

@tarqogan Well the weather is a groove here (I live in So. CA). I'm sick of Americans. Maybe Britons are no better. I'm entranced by the magnificence of the Irish landscape and their literature; maybe simply a visit would suffice!

I've never heard English weather described as a "talking point". Fog & rain--that's what we associate with England!

I live near several racetracks...you'd love it here!

[tarqogan]

Sorry for the delay in replying to your last post; I've just done 3 night shifts. Yes,1948BigCy, I can imagine what the weather is like where you are in Southern California. My wife and I were in Santa Monica last September and it was absolutely glorious ( I could get used to those sort of temperatures). Ireland is indeed, a beautiful country especially Eire( Southern Ireland). I am not that conversant with the racing scene these days ,I prefer the racing from the 1960's. Take care, my friend.

[bgardiner2000]

@tarqogan It's hard to reconsile an estimated Timeform Rating for Secretariat at 151-153 when the likes of Sea Bird only rated at 145. My question is, how did Harbinger rate at 142 and Sea The Stars at 140? It's sometimes beyond me.

[Sonnyboyx2]

@bgardiner2000 Harbinger destroyed the field in the King George by 11 lengths & 4 Lengths beating 3 Derby winners & a 2 time Arc runner up in Youmzain while Sea the Stars could only beat Youmzain by 2 lengths, it is my opinion Harbinger would have went on the be the greatest racehorse ever

[bgardiner2000]

@Sonnyboyx2 I agree, Harbinger was a super-horse! I don't believe thought that his rating above STS's is vindicated. For the same reason I don't believe that Sec's rating of 150+ is essentially accurate. His win in the King George was phenomenal. But a one-off win vs 6 consecutive Group 1's for STS's? U can't campare his win in the King George to STS's win in the Arc. I actually think that there wasn't a lot between them. A shame we don't get to c 2 of the greatest horses in the mod era go h2h.

[Sonnyboyx2]

@bgardiner2000 STS won 6 Gr1s with 5 being against his own age group, Harbinger won the Hardwicke & King George breaking the course records,the horses he beat by 11 lengths & 4 Lengths in the King George went on to win more group 1 races that season yet they was pulverized by Harbinger. Olivier Peslier said Harbinger was the greatest horse he ever rode and he rode Goldikova. Pentire Celebre and many more.

[bgardiner2000]

@Sonnyboyx2 The great shame is that we don't get to see them for long enough. I know there is a breeding potential to consider but STS raced only 9 times. I know Harbinger had an injury but you can guarentee they would have raced him until his ears fell off if he was a gelding. Zarkava only raced 6 times. I'm pretty sure it's still a spectator sport. Let them race on I say! JMO.

[bgardiner2000]

@Sonnyboyx2 If you're a racing enthusiast watch out for the Aust horse that has just gone to Ballydoyle, So You Think (High Chaparral) . He's currently rated only behind Harb (=) as the best horse in the world. I think he will prove himself to be as good as any horse in the last 20 years over 2000m on turf. That's a big call because to date he's relatively unproven (on a world scale). Even so his Timeform rating is 133 - which indicates how highly regarded he is. IF he acclimatizes with AO.

[Sonnyboyx2]

a rating of 145 makes Sea Bird ll the greatest racehorse ever

[bgardiner2000]

@Sonnyboyx2 Secretariat had a Beyer speed rating of 139 for his win in the Belmont. That works out to a 151-153 Timeform rating. Hard to believe.

[Sonnyboyx2]

@bgardiner2000 How do you work out that it equates to a Timeform rating of 151-153.. on the Timeform website they rate Sea Bird II as the highest rated horse of all time

[bgardiner2000]

@Sonnyboyx2 Secretariat's Beyer rating was 139 for his win in the Belmont. They say that you add 12-14 pounds for a relative Timeform rating. It's not my opinion. This is widely considered what his rating would have been based on his win in the Belmont. I'm not saying I paricularly agree with it. Just stating a commonly head belief.

[Sonnyboyx2]

@bgardiner2000 Sea-Bird II achieved his Timeform rating of 145 in winning the Arc against the best opposition on earth which is run on grass whereas Secretariat won on an artificial surface

[bgardiner2000]

@Sonnyboyx2 Let me slow this down a bit for you so you will understand it. IT IS NOT MY OPINION, it is accepted fact. I didn't say that I agree or disagree with it. Thanks.

[ThefightingCelt]

@bgardiner2000 No it doesn't. Timeform studied Secretariat's form in full a few years ago and have officially rated him one pound below Sea Bird. Secretariat's was allotted a Timeform figure of 144.

Fact.

[bgardiner2000]

@ThefightingCelt Sounds like a more reasonable assessment. 

[rcschumann]

@Sonnyboyx2 If you convert Secretariat's 139 Beyer Speed Figure (the highest ever) to Timeform, he would get around a 151. The 144 he received was by a European publication that would be reluctant to place him above a European horse. But the fact is, what Secretariat did at races like Preakness, Belmont and Canadian International (turf) deserves a much higher rating - especially Belmont!

[Sonnyboyx2]

@rcschumann your talking rubbish, everything is taken into consideration when a horses official rating is compiled and to claim Timeform assesors are reluctent to place a US horse above a European is nothing but sour grapes. They placed Zenyatta at the top of the world rankings for over 2yrs. Secratariat was an incredible horse no doubt but Sea Bird II was the greatest of all time.

[rcschumann]

@Sonnyboyx2 There's something wrong if they would place an overrated racemare like Zenyatta at the top. She beat nothing but much smaller fillies to win 18 of her races, and then she beat a turf horse to win no.19. She lost her last race to a decent horse, but one who doesn't compare with the likes of Tiznow and Ghostzapper from this century. Rachel Alexandra beat stronger male fields, not to mention Goldikova. Timeform didn't place Zenyatta above Sea Bird did they? 139 BSF Sec is the best.

[rcschumann]

@Sonnyboyx2 I'd like to change the last part of my previous comment. It's hard to say who's the greatest TB of all time - it's all a matter of opinion. Some Americans claim that Citation, Kelso, or Dr. Fager are the best. Some Europeans favor Nijinsky II above any other horse (I feel he was the best to race in Europe/UK). Sea Bird was certainly a giant, and since this is a video of him, I will just sit back and enjoy his fantastic talent.

[tigerarmyrule]

@Sonnyboyx2 if anything Timeform would be reluctant to place a French horse ahead of tudor minstrel and Brigadier Gerard. Sea Bird is rated so high because he coasted to victory in great faces against top field while being ridden hands and heels and wandering about as if he was out for a stroll. Secretaria or Sea Bird? Pele or Maradona? Bird or Jordan? who honestly knows but probably they were similar.

[noblewestham]

Dancing Brave would have done Sea Bird for pace in the last furlong.

[tarqogan]

That's an opinion NOT a fact!

[francilius]

A supreme champion. Easily the greatest middle distance performer I have ever seen.

[Kelt1c71]

The only horse in Derby history to win the famous race without coming off the bridle. Look at the way he flies past the Lester Piggott ridden Meadow Court ( who went onto win the Irish Derby & King George & Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes). He made him look like a selling plater.

[maxtudor]

Did you ever hear of Shergar? He Cantered home too.

[BillOne2]

A supreme champion. In the the words of Sir Peter O'Sullevan - Sea Bird was a helluva racehorse.

[cf1970]

Sea Bird was amazing! Thanks for this. Take care.

[Ropepe]

you're a nice guy. it's true.