@Flyglobespan93 I'm not a pro but I think it's to make sure there is no extra drag from the gear doors opening for the gear to come up, which would otherwise affect handling and could cause big problems. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
I see the video, but I see nothing in the video that shows an adverse aerodynamic effect of increased parasite drag. I am even more inclined to stick with my own logic and observations after I have recently verified everything I previously said with a CAPTAIN on the DC-9. (MD-80 is the stretch-model of this aircraft) He confirmed the delay of configuration change with respect to the landing gear is based on time, priority, and stability.
Flap configuration change is obviously a concern of causing the chord line to reach critical AOA when roll control with aileron input is going to be heavily used. Stall, spin upset, end of story. Any pilot knows this and with jets it's a matter of riding the stick shaker with the throttles firewalled until the trend changes. I have experienced wind shear many times going into PHX in REAL LIFE, not a sim. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
Flap configuration change is obviously a concern of causing the chord line to reach critical AOA when roll control with aileron input is going to be heavily used. Stall, spin, end of story. Any pilot knows this and with jets its a matter of riding the stick shaker with the throttles firewalled until the trend changes. I have experienced wind shear many times going into PHX in REAL LIFE, not a sim. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
@col737zc Both the nose gear and main wheel wells are exposed as well as 4 extra open gear doors on the MD80 for a period of 10 to 15 seconds if you retract the gear. During this period drag increases.
So in wind shear, as it says maintain configuration, you keep the gear down? Why do you do that instead of raising the gear to help get every ounce of climb you can?
@nic777morrey After you select gear up, there will be quite a few precious seconds when (at the most critical time) you are creating even more drag. The grear doors will swing open, the wheel wells will be exposed to the slipstream etc etc. If you look at the cycle time for gear operation of most big jets you'll notice that they take quite long.
@xkoote You're absolutely right, I personally would like to add that an aircraft will only be able to survive a wind shear event if the total energy with which you enter the shear is greater than the amount needed. Thats why you increase the thrust immediately upon shear recognition. When you enter, you don't know how and if you will come out. So as there is a possibility of impact, leave the gear down to absorb some of the vertical energy in case you touch down some were.
@xkoote if you select gear up, you will lose the takeoff configuration, if the windshear is very strong and take the plane to the runway you will make a "wave-off", otherwise it is a landing with the belly of the plane
@kefret Yes that too. Thanks. But the gear serves as an impact absorber since with the attitute you hit the deck with you will hit the tail first. Windshear attitude will be around 15° to 20° whereas the tail will hit at 11°.
@nic777morrey bcuz u dont hav a desent positive climb rate. windshear is tha downwardly force of wind very dangerous. so u gotta b on point practice practice practice
Possibly a technical issue with the air data computer. Either way, I'm not sure as to why they would have aborted given that they didn't have enough runway left to stop.
Thanks man, got 8 Old Parr cokes under the belt already and it's 1800 local. So at least I know 2009 will go out in style ;-). All the best for next year.
I really wouldn't know and can't even begin to speculate. There are so many things going on at any given time. One minute everything is under control, 5 seconds later you are faced with a decision that could affect 200 souls sitting behind you. Believe me, I've been there. Here's another thing. When you were scared sh*tless it suddenly gets very hard to taxi an MD80. What with the jiggling hands and knees and all.
It depends on soooooo many different factors. To name a few. Runway length, winds, wet runway, aircraft loading, ATC requirements, gusts/wind change in flare and most of all luck in getting all these things right. All have simultaneous effect during your flare. All the while you are still guessing exactly where the main wheels are. The flare and touchdown is a very dynamic situation. I even have a hard time explaining to FA's why certain landings are firmer or not.
Uff, very hard to explain in 500 words. The idea is to TO with as much speed as possible with as little flaps as possible (for better engine fail performance). The MD80 allows you to compute juuuuust the right flpa setting to use as much runway as possible to gain energy. e.g I took of from KMIA last week from runway 27. A long runway. We took off with flaps 3°, and rotated at 165 knots ! We used most of the runway but even at max weight we still took off like a rocket. That's the whole idea.
Finalcitrus was just illustrating how easy it can be to set a switch to the wrong position, and how important a checklist is to catch that mistake. In his situation it was a simple ignition switch. Next time it may be the flaps....right on the same day the warning system doesn't work. Hence the importance of the checklist and it's proper use.
It certainly does. It has been a factor in at least two MD-80 crashes. NorthWest and SpanAir in Madrid. It's a damned shame to because the MD80 has a very advanced TO warning system that tells you verbally exactly what is not set in the correct position. Not a generic buzzer. The MD80 has flaps settings anywhere between 0° and 24° for takeoff. It depends on specific runway data. Landing is made with flaps 28° or 40°.
yeah nw 255 crashed out of detroit metro, a simple and easy error to make, i have accidentaly switched engine start to flt instead of cont before takeoff, its easy to make fatal errors, but thats why you have to check and double check.
Great vid-thank you. Xkoote-Please promise that you'll always double-check your "Flaps" settings at takeoffs...I knew 2 people aboard NW flight 255 that perished when an electrical malfunction disabled the Takeoff Config cockpit warning. (flaps were retracted).When their MD82 rolled left/right, the pilot [probably] assumed windshear and pulled back on the stick, per his training... but this only increased the rolling. Also see the Spanair, crash, Madrid-similar situation.-Thank you again sir!
Both those crashes were indeed a very unfortunate series of events. We have no less than 5 points between engine start and takeoff where we check the flaps. It's in the before start checklst, in the taxi out checklist, we have to include it in our taxi briefing, we do a takeoff warning check on taxi out and we check the flaps again for before takeoff checklist. Always sad to hear about loss of life. My thoughts are with you.
Not sure. I don't know if it's a factory procedure or company procedure. The idea behind it is that you don't want exposed gear bays and extra gear doors hanging out during the most critical phase.
You keep pulling back until the stick shaker goes off and keep your pitch just where the stick shaker trigger speed is. Of course it's useless to crash because you tried to save the engines, so you try to get as much thrust as the Pratts can give you and let maintenance worry about the engine changes if you walk away ;-)
A change in wind direction and speed. In aviation we view it mostly as sudden low altitude strong shear. Since your wing uses air speed to stay up, a drastic and quick change from head wind to tail wind will suddenly drop the speed of air over you wings. And at low speed and altitude it can have dire consequences.
What was your a/c weight and min. clean speed for your flight?
pwkpilot 3 months ago
was the last noise at 1.03 the stabilizer in motion warning buzzer?
thomsonfly645k 6 months ago
Comment removed
flyboy242 6 months ago
I heard the outer marker! Must not be at KDAN......
Flydanville 6 months ago
Sad that I was refused a flight school. True story.
Axmedkoole 8 months ago
One undergoes ATP training so after all the financial and physical effort one can become a certified Ice Cream Distributor!
What do you think heil? Master of the obvious?
Ameshdicto 1 year ago
Why was the gear kept down?
Flyglobespan93 1 year ago
@Flyglobespan93 I'm not a pro but I think it's to make sure there is no extra drag from the gear doors opening for the gear to come up, which would otherwise affect handling and could cause big problems. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
b77w94 1 year ago
@b77w94 Ok thanks
Flyglobespan93 1 year ago
@Flyglobespan93 Also in the event the plane does come back down, extended gear offer some impact protection
tbmavengerstuka 1 year ago
Are you trying to be a MD-80 pilot? for a airline
heil08 1 year ago
@heil08 That was part of recurrent training for an airline.
xkoote 1 year ago 7
@xkoote cool what airline
heil08 1 year ago
@heil08 If it's Miami, its would most likely be for Air Tran or American. Doubt Delta does any training in MIA, although I could be wrong
StCatharinesRailFan8 1 year ago
@StCatharinesRailFan8 Probably AAL, Air Tran does not use MD80 aircraft, they use the Boeing 717. I
OntarioRails1 1 year ago
@OntarioRails1 Yeah I realize that. I wasn't paying attention to what I wrote
StCatharinesRailFan8 1 year ago
@col737zc
check out this vid: /watch?v=--eBrx1SGMg
peace out
bakadavid 1 year ago
@bakadavid
I see the video, but I see nothing in the video that shows an adverse aerodynamic effect of increased parasite drag. I am even more inclined to stick with my own logic and observations after I have recently verified everything I previously said with a CAPTAIN on the DC-9. (MD-80 is the stretch-model of this aircraft) He confirmed the delay of configuration change with respect to the landing gear is based on time, priority, and stability.
CSZerino 11 months ago
Comment removed
CSZerino 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
-continued-
Flap configuration change is obviously a concern of causing the chord line to reach critical AOA when roll control with aileron input is going to be heavily used. Stall, spin upset, end of story. Any pilot knows this and with jets it's a matter of riding the stick shaker with the throttles firewalled until the trend changes. I have experienced wind shear many times going into PHX in REAL LIFE, not a sim. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
CSZerino 11 months ago
-continued-
Flap configuration change is obviously a concern of causing the chord line to reach critical AOA when roll control with aileron input is going to be heavily used. Stall, spin, end of story. Any pilot knows this and with jets its a matter of riding the stick shaker with the throttles firewalled until the trend changes. I have experienced wind shear many times going into PHX in REAL LIFE, not a sim. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
CSZerino 11 months ago
@col737zc Both the nose gear and main wheel wells are exposed as well as 4 extra open gear doors on the MD80 for a period of 10 to 15 seconds if you retract the gear. During this period drag increases.
xkoote 1 year ago
@col737zc Are you sure about that?
xkoote 1 year ago
An simulator is very expensive.
SWE370 1 year ago
Dude that's great! Can you tell me where is the exactly location?
Thanks a lot!
elpablo07 1 year ago
@elpablo07 I think thats Fligth Safety Boeing academy. Parallel to runway 09L
B787YV 1 year ago
So in wind shear, as it says maintain configuration, you keep the gear down? Why do you do that instead of raising the gear to help get every ounce of climb you can?
nic777morrey 1 year ago
@nic777morrey After you select gear up, there will be quite a few precious seconds when (at the most critical time) you are creating even more drag. The grear doors will swing open, the wheel wells will be exposed to the slipstream etc etc. If you look at the cycle time for gear operation of most big jets you'll notice that they take quite long.
xkoote 1 year ago 5
@xkoote You're absolutely right, I personally would like to add that an aircraft will only be able to survive a wind shear event if the total energy with which you enter the shear is greater than the amount needed. Thats why you increase the thrust immediately upon shear recognition. When you enter, you don't know how and if you will come out. So as there is a possibility of impact, leave the gear down to absorb some of the vertical energy in case you touch down some were.
mvaldman2001 1 year ago
@xkoote if you select gear up, you will lose the takeoff configuration, if the windshear is very strong and take the plane to the runway you will make a "wave-off", otherwise it is a landing with the belly of the plane
kefret 1 year ago
@kefret Yes that too. Thanks. But the gear serves as an impact absorber since with the attitute you hit the deck with you will hit the tail first. Windshear attitude will be around 15° to 20° whereas the tail will hit at 11°.
Doegniek 1 year ago
@xkoote Also CG will change.
pawelo81 3 months ago
@nic777morrey bcuz u dont hav a desent positive climb rate. windshear is tha downwardly force of wind very dangerous. so u gotta b on point practice practice practice
kickass5 1 year ago
@nic777morrey
In windshear or other kind of such things, you ALWAYS maintain config.
Weltbevoelkerung 1 year ago
Mmmm, wind shear can be Reeeeeally nasty...
jesusgonebad 1 year ago
Whats that beeping sound I hear at 0:45 and 0:48 ?
dano94 1 year ago
@dano94 Those are the middle and outer marker beacons for the opposite runway.
xkoote 1 year ago
hehe diru diru diru, windshear windshear! this is a beautifull aircraft!
bulloramone 1 year ago
Possibly a technical issue with the air data computer. Either way, I'm not sure as to why they would have aborted given that they didn't have enough runway left to stop.
terryk1233 1 year ago
сдвиг ветра, сдвиг ветра, сдвиг ветра
VasKonk 2 years ago
Thanks man, got 8 Old Parr cokes under the belt already and it's 1800 local. So at least I know 2009 will go out in style ;-). All the best for next year.
xkoote 2 years ago
I really wouldn't know and can't even begin to speculate. There are so many things going on at any given time. One minute everything is under control, 5 seconds later you are faced with a decision that could affect 200 souls sitting behind you. Believe me, I've been there. Here's another thing. When you were scared sh*tless it suddenly gets very hard to taxi an MD80. What with the jiggling hands and knees and all.
xkoote 2 years ago
Merry christmas to you too buddy.
xkoote 2 years ago
It depends on soooooo many different factors. To name a few. Runway length, winds, wet runway, aircraft loading, ATC requirements, gusts/wind change in flare and most of all luck in getting all these things right. All have simultaneous effect during your flare. All the while you are still guessing exactly where the main wheels are. The flare and touchdown is a very dynamic situation. I even have a hard time explaining to FA's why certain landings are firmer or not.
xkoote 2 years ago
Damn, Im building my own sim in febuary, but not as detailed as that. ill post a vid when i start it. cheers and good job on the take off
drmrboy29 2 years ago
Man that is such a nice sim. Is this a home simulator?
drmrboy29 2 years ago
It's a real sim used to train airline pilots. Costs at least $1000-$1500 an hour to play with this.
Avantime 2 years ago
Uff, very hard to explain in 500 words. The idea is to TO with as much speed as possible with as little flaps as possible (for better engine fail performance). The MD80 allows you to compute juuuuust the right flpa setting to use as much runway as possible to gain energy. e.g I took of from KMIA last week from runway 27. A long runway. We took off with flaps 3°, and rotated at 165 knots ! We used most of the runway but even at max weight we still took off like a rocket. That's the whole idea.
xkoote 2 years ago
Finalcitrus was just illustrating how easy it can be to set a switch to the wrong position, and how important a checklist is to catch that mistake. In his situation it was a simple ignition switch. Next time it may be the flaps....right on the same day the warning system doesn't work. Hence the importance of the checklist and it's proper use.
xkoote 2 years ago
Those are engine ignition positions. Flt is FLIGHT and CONT is CONTINUOUS.
xkoote 2 years ago
omg i wanna fly that md simulator before i die, how much cost 1 hour? good video
935514595 2 years ago
It certainly does. It has been a factor in at least two MD-80 crashes. NorthWest and SpanAir in Madrid. It's a damned shame to because the MD80 has a very advanced TO warning system that tells you verbally exactly what is not set in the correct position. Not a generic buzzer. The MD80 has flaps settings anywhere between 0° and 24° for takeoff. It depends on specific runway data. Landing is made with flaps 28° or 40°.
xkoote 2 years ago
yeah nw 255 crashed out of detroit metro, a simple and easy error to make, i have accidentaly switched engine start to flt instead of cont before takeoff, its easy to make fatal errors, but thats why you have to check and double check.
finalcitrus 2 years ago
what does firewall the engines mean? Full thrust?
Wookierabbit 2 years ago
It means that the throttles are shoved to the mechanical stops. Push them until they don't go anymore.
xkoote 2 years ago
Great vid-thank you. Xkoote-Please promise that you'll always double-check your "Flaps" settings at takeoffs...I knew 2 people aboard NW flight 255 that perished when an electrical malfunction disabled the Takeoff Config cockpit warning. (flaps were retracted).When their MD82 rolled left/right, the pilot [probably] assumed windshear and pulled back on the stick, per his training... but this only increased the rolling. Also see the Spanair, crash, Madrid-similar situation.-Thank you again sir!
Fuff63 2 years ago
Both those crashes were indeed a very unfortunate series of events. We have no less than 5 points between engine start and takeoff where we check the flaps. It's in the before start checklst, in the taxi out checklist, we have to include it in our taxi briefing, we do a takeoff warning check on taxi out and we check the flaps again for before takeoff checklist. Always sad to hear about loss of life. My thoughts are with you.
xkoote 2 years ago
Interesting...is the gear retraction delayed on most aircraft like this in a sheer takeoff situation?
synthuser 2 years ago
Not sure. I don't know if it's a factory procedure or company procedure. The idea behind it is that you don't want exposed gear bays and extra gear doors hanging out during the most critical phase.
xkoote 2 years ago
is this at delta's HQ?
gatornation1993 2 years ago
What did you mean by "pull all the way to the stick shaker and firewall the engines."?
DeltaEagle7700 2 years ago
You keep pulling back until the stick shaker goes off and keep your pitch just where the stick shaker trigger speed is. Of course it's useless to crash because you tried to save the engines, so you try to get as much thrust as the Pratts can give you and let maintenance worry about the engine changes if you walk away ;-)
xkoote 2 years ago
So in other words, you pull back the stick all the way and add as much power as you can?
DeltaEagle7700 2 years ago
If the normal technique is not sufficient to guarantee terrain clearance, then yes.
xkoote 2 years ago
Interesting!
DeltaEagle7700 2 years ago
Nice video...thanks for sharing.
contrail777 2 years ago
Did the FO delay gear retraction? He had his hand on the handle but it was still left down
seanlee747 2 years ago
Nice catch. You should maintain existing config when battling a windshear situation. The call for gear up came right when we entered it.
xkoote 2 years ago
can somebody explain to me what windshear is?
garlex134 2 years ago
A change in wind direction and speed. In aviation we view it mostly as sudden low altitude strong shear. Since your wing uses air speed to stay up, a drastic and quick change from head wind to tail wind will suddenly drop the speed of air over you wings. And at low speed and altitude it can have dire consequences.
xkoote 2 years ago
Windshear windshear windshear
bloedheet 2 years ago
Textbook procedure. Great video! Thx for sharing
imayora111 2 years ago
Hopi zuiver mes ruman! Unda di Miami esey ta? Kwa scol?
ArubianAviator09 2 years ago
kinda tame......they really beat us with the windshear when i go in....loks like you had it easy there.
tell the instructor to crank it up to about 60%....then you'll be working.
beergut111 3 years ago
You're right. But then the instructor would be having a hard time filming the thing......hehehe.
xkoote 3 years ago
well ok...good point
beergut111 3 years ago
what is it with aviation videos...Someone is always one better. I bet you fly around a cessna. ..If not prove your alimighty heroics...
headz51230 2 years ago
Bon video brother, mi tin gana di sinta den un di e simulator nan asina ei un bia.
jojosambre 3 years ago
Lo mi purba bisanan e biaha aki ;-). Tin plan pa e sigientenan bira EFIS, korekto.
xkoote 3 years ago