Maxwell's Demon and Perpetuum Mobile of second kind in Phun

[cvar4o]

Here is a real one . It use several rings . Because if you use only one . It changes the field after closing the ring .

AND VERY EASY TO CREATE >>> : w w w (DOT)leviathan(DOT)free(DOT)bg

[jib1000]

FAIL

[niinja2]

the collisions are not elastic

[FarceTheory]

What energy is applied? If no energy is applied than it will dissipate!

[louisdemon2]

how can i do for it dont lagg

[Homik111]

But it isn´t perpetuum mobile. You deliver energy to machine by the yellow piston. Perpetuum mobile is machine, without energy delivery and simultaneously generating energy. But, it´s nice .))

[MxM1111]

@Homik111

There are 2 kinds of PM, this is of the SECOND kind, you are describing of the first kind.

[blubberbloedi]

haha fail...in real life this wouldnt work.

[sjh7132]

The door takes energy so the gas on the right is cloder and lower pressure per molecule.

Why does the paddle wheel seem to turn at the same speed no matter the number and direction of the molecules are hitting it? Either it has a fixed speed, or it has a lot of mass and you started it with motion. Either seems like a cheat to me.

[MxM1111]

@sjh7132

The wheel is heavy enough so it "averages" out. There is no cheating, really!

[sjh7132]

@MxM1111

Yes, but my point is that if it is so heavy that it averages things out, then with a simulation this short it would be hard to tell if it's gaining or losing energy.

[vik95170]

i enderstand your invention and it did not create enery you know why ? becase when an air molecule push the "door" she loose energy and this enrgy is recuperated in motion. but if you make word this engine durig hours the airwill become cold ! plesa answer!

[55markinator55]

quote: but the electrical companies will never allow that!

my answer: well f**k the electrical companies >:o

[vpo20]

Read Feinman Lectures on Physics. The so called "one way door" stays cool in this video but in reality it have the same average kinetic energy as molecules an start to jump wildly leaving the dooor way stays open most of the time. So molecules move to and fro easily. If door is big the opening is not enough to pass molecules, There is no violation of second low. I'd love to find one but this one is obedient to low.

[MxM1111]

You know, you are the first one who gave the right answer on this comment thread! You won the star! :)

[schnipsikabel]

@MxM1111 well, now consider the trap door mechanism not worked by a spring (like in your example) but by gravity just pulling it down. Now it should work, no?

[schnipsikabel]

@MxM1111 According to Feynman, the elastic mechanism pulling the trap door back is the problem. But now imagine the trap door being kept down by gravity! Now it should work, no??

[dtiydr]

You ofcourse have to tell the program what fysiscs you want involved, there isnt any temperature in the "world" there so you have to create one, what did you expect??

[Kiefertje]

Why do you need to heat the gas? At room temp the gas molecules are already moving.

[SinistraD32]

The problem is that the whole system is built by molecules, and every time there's a collision the gas particles are slowing down, and the system gains heat, which it will probably pass out to the environment. Of course that's possible in void, but in void almost every system is a perpetuum mobile.

[utsavman47]

this might work but you can't actually call it a perpetual machine coz it dosn't give free energy but by cooling the room and providing some is gonna be very useful and youd be killing two birds with one stone

[MxM1111]

Because it works just by extracting heat from your room. I.e. it chills the room and generate electricity. It is so called perpetual motion of the second kind. (but the comment about electrical companies is just a joke to get your attention :) )

[Valkyriefury]

That's very well done, I love it.

[Magnetz123]

good job dude

[MxM1111]

Thanks, dude!

[vietarc]

Energy can be create and destroy. First law just simply state that energy is a 1:1 ratio. Second law state that energy goes from 2:1 ratio. Third law says that energy from 1:2 ratio is useless energy. Eistein got it, E=mc^2, but the situation is redundant. E=mv^2. A potential energy MGH can be convert to 1/2mv^2 (1:1), or mv^2(1:2), or 1/2MGH(2:1) converstion. But you do have to know the trick to convert it. A moving object has energy potential of mv^2, not 1/2mv^2.

[Sgrunterundt]

Woah dude. Cut down on the reading of cracpot books. That makes no sense.

[sharpya380]

actually it makes perfect sence

[Sgrunterundt]

In what meaning of the word "sense"?

[sharpya380]

it means hes got it right.

if you have a degree in something like that and beg to differ, write down the proof!

[Sgrunterundt]

I would if I knew where to start, but his post makes so little sense that I don't even know what he is claiming.

"First law just simply state that energy is a 1:1 ratio"

Ratio to what?

"Second law state that energy goes from 2:1 ratio"

What?

"Eistein got it, E=mc^2, but the situation is redundant. E=mv^2."

How is a situation redundant. What does the equivalence of mass and energy have to do with twice the clasical kinetic energy of an object?

And so on...

[sharpya380]

okay, sry i thought it looked as if it made sense,

but i know when ive been beat.

sorry for saying you were wrong.

[zeratul575]

sharpy atleast you were a man and knew when he was beat

and sgrunterunt you are a very wise man and stated the proof

in end: your good men

[sharpya380]

thanks

[utsavman47]

sadly what you said didn't make sense to me , but who am i to complain im just 15

[MxM1111]

No, it saves the first law of thermodynamics - the law of energy conservation. It does not save the second law, read wiki about it.

[umanuel1311]

Nope. It does save the second law: the daemon itself produces entropy (as you can read in wiki which you proposed to me), the missing entropy; so in total it increases. that means our one-way door emits (not simulated) heat every time it closes (it would oscillate forever otherwise).

Another formulation of the 2nd law is that the machine's efficency cannot be better than a certain amount (1-T1/T2). This efficency isn't better here, because of the lost energy at the door. QED. :-)

[MxM1111]

Suppose that the door is in thermal equilibrium with the gas and the walls, thus it does not emits the heat...

[ImberSolitas]

No but it does. Whenever the door closes, and it must close for gas to only pass one way through it, it must give off energy in some form, no matter what.

[MxM1111]

The spring closes the do. It simply returns the energy which it took when it was open by gas molecule flying from right to left....

[ImberSolitas]

Returms that energy to what? That's teh issue. That energy is lost.

[galeixo]

Very nice! I hadn't tough about this. It's true. If the door doesn't emits heat, ito oscillates forever, thus the mollecules have equal probability of going one way or the other and the machine wouldn't work. Thanks for the lesson!

[umanuel1311]

That's exactly what I meant! Thank you for make this clearer, guys. I think we saved the correctness of thermodynamics together :-)

[umanuel1311]

The solution: You don't have the look at the gas "molecules" only, but at the overall system! There is an element generating heat that isn't shown in the simulation. This additional heat saves the correctness of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Do you see which element I mean? :-)

[Cosmodot256]

I can't think of a simpler way to put it other than saying that the second law of thermodynamics is not in question in any way. With or without a paradox that was sufficiently explained away decades ago. It's an imaginary paradox, because it doesn't actually follow the rules. IMAGINARY.

Entropy means that no matter what you try to do, differences between things will eventually balance over time and, ON AVERAGE within a closed system, (nothing in or out) it will NEVER progress backwards.

[MxM1111]

Oh! I know that! This demon is not realizable in real life. The question is why ;) Consider this as a puzzle, why this demon can not work in real life, but works in Phun. And the answer has nothing to do with external energy source, but rather with demon itself (himself? herself? :) )

[Cosmodot256]

If you took out the two motors in your model, it wouldn't work in phun any differently than it would in real life, if you could also use two motors in real life...

The model isn't an accurate representation of the paradox because you're using two motors. Yes, if you stopped using them, the machine wouldn't work, but at least the model would be accurate to the understanding of the thought experiment.

[Cosmodot256]

Entropy only refers to closed systems. If energy is flowing into the system from elsewhere, it's not a closed system.

Note that if the whole universe consisted of the demon and the container, and energy were needed to operate the gate, the only source of energy is letting heat flow from B to A. There would be no external source of energy like the one you provided.

For energy to flow into the box from the environment, there would have to be a higher concentration of energy in the environment.

[Cosmodot256]

If you include the environment as part of the system, you must also consider that in the system as a WHOLE, entropy would still be increasing. If you presume to take energy from the environment to maintain a steady temp. inside the box higher than that of the environment you would need a "second demon," who would also require an input of energy to function. The only source of energy available to the "Demon" would be the pressure/heat trying to get out of the box while he tries to put it in.

[Cosmodot256]

If the demon had another source of energy available and because the demon itself is also part of the system, that source of energy would also have to be included within the system. Within that additional source of energy, entropy would be increasing, using the available flow of energy to do the work of establishing order elsewhere in the system by pushing energy against the gradient.

If the Demon's energy source happened to be unlimited by some miracle, you're no longer talking physics.

[Cosmodot256]

Cool contraption, btw.

[Cosmodot256]

For this idea to adhere to the second law, you would need to close the system by linking the wheel on top to the wheel on bottom and by using no 'free' motors. The fact that the hinge on the bottom is introducing most of the energy into the system, you waste most of that 'free' energy through the friction caused by collisions within the box.

Since the wheel on bottom is your main source of energy, it would be much more efficient just to hook it straight up to the electricity generator.

[Cosmodot256]

After all, the system is only perpetual because the wheel powering it does so without needing an input of energy.

In the real world, there's no such thing.

[MxM1111]

A) I had to include the extra energy into the system, because otherwise the demon would remove all the energy from the gas and the molecules would stop. (this of course contradict to the second law of thermodynamics)

B) In real life the source of energy would be just your room temperature. That is your box would be heated by the room.

[MxM1111]

C) This is NOT perpetual motion of the first kind, which generates energy, this is of the second kind. It transfers energy from the gas to somewhere else, and then energy flows back. I could not simulate in phun this "flowing back" so, instead I added the source of energy. Energy conservation law is still valid for the second type of perpetual motion machines.

[Cobalt258]

in order to prove the devise, I'd recomend linking the top wheel, to the drive wheel of the bottom one, set some weight's really low and see if it will maintain it self.

[Cobalt258]

but wouldn't heating the "gas" take more energy than you'd get out of turning turbine?

[MxM1111]

No, by the law of energy conservation.

[moe1243]

wow no offence but i didnt get it sorry but it looks tough to make and understand 5/5

[MxM1111]

I recommend reading about second law of thermodynamics and Maxwell demons. you can start from wiki. It is interesting topic.

[Cosmodot256]

I've studied thermodynamics for a couple years now.

Wiki is a decent place to start from, but I don't think you understand that the problem of Maxwell's demon has already been solved.

The machine doesn't violate the second law because it's not contained within a closed system, period.

Utilizing a "flow" of energy is not a PM. It's just a regular machine. Solar panels do exactly the same thing.

Using the heat in the room does nothing. Machines work by moving heat from a high concentration.

[Cosmodot256]

to a low concentration.

Keep reading mate. Seems like you've got a good start, but just seems like you might be missing out of a few key elements of the theory. Entropy is about the diffusion of energy only moving in one direction WITHIN A CLOSED SYSTEM. It has nothing to do with thermodynamics or conservation of energy if the system is open.

[MxM1111]

So, you think if you make a device, which cools your room, and produce electricity then it is fine because it is not closed system?

There is another formulation of the second law - in order to produce work/extract energy, one needs temperature differential. It is equivalent formulation and does not require closed system. It may be easy for you that this demon breaks the second law when it is formulated in this way.

[Cosmodot256]

The demon doesn't break the law, because it doesn't apply to the theory.

"So, you think if you make a device, which cools your room, and produce electricity then it is fine because it is not closed system?"

That's simply the only way it would work. It would be inefficient, because you would need a source of energy to power it. In theory, you could probably do it by boiling water with firewood, but you WOULD need an external source of energy.

If it were a closed system, there would be... cont.

[Cosmodot256]

NOTHING going in or out of it. No heat, no electricity, no light, nothing. That's what a closed system is. It's CLOSED. Energy would still be conserved within the entire system, but the differential of energy within the system would not. Eventually, the heat inside would be spread among all of the gas and there would no longer be a difference of temperature, thus no way to do work. That's entropy.

If the system was open, as it would need to be to continue to work, it would be a 'normal' machine

[Cosmodot256]

The demon doesn't break the law... If there was a demon, he would be another part of the machine and would therefore need an input of energy. To simplify, he would be using the temperature difference within the machine as well and like the rest of the machine, would be using that difference to do work. The difference of temperature would actually be equalized faster because of his presence, thus the machine would stop sooner and the demon may "die." Youtube might have some vids about entropy.

[MxM1111]

Then it would be PM of the first kind. As it is it is PM of the second kind, where energy is extracted by cooling gas. This is why you need to constantly heat the gas by that oscillating yellow line.

[Cosmodot256]

Heating a substance requires an input of energy whether it's a chemical reaction such as burning a gas, a physical process such as friction or a quantum phenomenon such as transforming the flow of electrons over a conductor into heat through the electrical resistance of the conductor.

Cooling gas also requires an input of energy to remove the heat from that gas through energy diffusion, compression, diffusion, decompression, and diffusion, in turn. That's basically how air conditioners work.

[MxM1111]

And this is why this demon is against thermodynamics - it is the whole point of this movie.

[CyanideXCloud]

If you made the paddle turn the wheel the oscillates the yellow box, THEN it would be a PM.

[MxM1111]

Then it would be PM of the first kind. This is PM of the second kind, i.e. it needs energy from outside to run, but it gets it by chilling, thus you need to heat it with that yellow box.

That is it can chill the room and give you energy (if it works in real life that is)