there is a problem separating the pre trib rapture and the post when you say thief in the night vs jesus coming in power glory and every eye shall see him as though that is how they are different.
The reason I say this is because the day at the end of the trib after the sun goes dark and he returns then is also described as a thief in rhe night but only for those not watching.
the last half of this vid was played at church this morning. This has to be my favorite video EVER! Just imagining how quikly it will be! Thanks for posting and making!!!!!
The 2-stage secret rapture is indeed a lie. The disciples did ask where the ones gathered will go:
"I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left." And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." Luke 17:34-37
Jesus WILL come, on the last day. Not in 2 stages. There will be no do-overs. No 2nd chances.
2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our lord Yeshua the Christ and our being gathered to him (RAPTURE), we ask you, brothers & sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the Day of the Lord IS IMMINENT. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day will not come until FIRST the apostasy occurs and the man of Lawlessness is revealed"
Jesus comes as a thief in the night: suddenly, quickly (twinkling of an eye) ...VS... Jesus comes in Great Power & Glory & EVERY eye will see Him ...... Jesus comes when we LEAST expect Him (eating/drinking; marrying/giving in marriage; buying/selling; planting/building) ...VS... nuclear war, all mountains/islands disappear, plagues, boils from the sun, all oceans turn to blood/everything dies, 100# hailstones, all greenery burned, massive earthquakes; satanic madmen cutting off people's heads
Genesis 32:30 "So Jacob called the place Peniel (Pemuel) saying, "It is because I saw GOD face to face and yet my life was spared." Yes, Jacob saw the Face of God, the Messiah Jesus Christ. To God be the Glory forever & ever. This brief struggle with the Lord is Genesis 32:22-30
Oh so it was nothing but you are still secretly posting comments. Jacob said he saw El face to face. El means power, it means he faced the divine, not that he actually saw God. It's funny because he says the same thing about the face of Esau. Yet you are willing to be he saw God, yet God said no mane can see His face & live. So which is it, God's word or your opinion?
@ravenlordnz "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you WILL be comdemned." Matthew 12:36-37
@1AndrewTheWolf You are going to be VERY disappointed. Jesus Himself said NO ONE knows the day or the hour. Only FALSE prophets are enspousing WRONG dates & naming the antichrist. The antichrist will NOT be revealed until AFTER the Rapture of the FAITHFUL Believers of Jesus Christ.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Also, sorry to disappoint you. I'm atheist, thus my original quote poking fun at the fact some people thought may 21st was rapture. I hope that doesn't obscure your perception of me. I just didn't want to give you a false impression that I'm Christian.
"....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6; "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called, I am he; I am the first and I am the last." Isaiah 48:12; "I am the Alpha and the Omega', says the Lord God, 'who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 (Jesus Speaking); "I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End....I am the Root and the Offspring of David..." Revelation 22:13-16 (Jesus Speaking)
@ nilhav you are entitled to believe what you want and no matter how hard you twist our arms you theory still holds no water. It has a lot of holes and I still do not agree with you and this has nothing to do with darby but if you want to go there we can go back further than darby!
Events: Rapture Revelation 4:1-5; Martyrd Tribulation Saints...5th Seal; 2 Witnesses Raptured...Rev. 11; Great Tribulation Starts..Rev. 13; 144,000 Jewish Preachers Raptured...Rev. 14 (Same time as GT starts)...2nd Coming of Christ..Rev 19; antichrist & false prophet thrown into lake of fire..satan bound...Tribulation Saints (from 5th Seal - Beheaded) resurrected..(NOT Raptured)...1,000 year reign of Christ...end of 1,000 years satan unbound...deceives nations...thrown into lake of fire.
1st seal:false messiahs 2nd seal:wars & war rumors 3rd seal:famine 4th seal:death pestilence 5th seal: martyrdom great tribulation 6th seal:sun dark, heavens shaken (rapture takes place/Yeshua comes down with 144,000) 7th seal:7 angels with trumpets of wrath, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7th trumpet:releases 7 angels with bowls of wrath, 1,2,3,4,5,6th bowl:prepares for battle of Armageddon, 7th bowl: final wrath. After this Yeshua comes with army, defeats the beast.
The restrainer is the Holy Spirit of God that lives in each believer. The antichrist will not be revealed until after the Rapture (of the Church - all of those Born Again Believers in which the Holy Spirit dwells). While we're in Heaven with Jesus, we will receive our Crowns & Rewards, watch the Coronation of Jesus Christ & go to the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. We will then come back with Him at His 2nd Coming. Glory be to the Lamb of God, and thank you, Lord for accepting me. Come Soon
Nowhere does it say the holy spirit is the restrainer. Lets see what Yeshua says about his disciples in the tribulation.
Mark 10:11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but THE HOLY SPIRIT.
So no, the spirit will not be gone, nor the followers of Yeshua. So what is restraining the beast empire from coming? (CONT)
The man of anti-Law & his empire is represented by a beast in the visions. So where could Paul get the idea of something restraining the empire? In Dan 10 a chief prince speaks to Daniel & tells him he is fighting the other princes of empires. The empire at that time was Persia, which he was fighting, and the following empire according to the visions is Greece. He then tell Daniel that when he is gone the prince of Greece will come. (CONT)
This means he is restraining the empires from coming and when he is removed the next prince comes. So who is it that is restraining the last empire? Not the holy spirit, and not the Church, but a chief prince, and when he is removed the beast will come. 2 Thess 2 says that the rapture will not occur until after the apostasy happens, & the man of anti-Law is revealed. So no pre-tribulation rapture.
@nilhav The Holy Spirit of God has always been the restrainer of evil. Wait until the world is without Believers, then you will see just how much the Chruch, in which the Holy Spirit dwells, actually much evil. God gives satan & his angels just enough rope for them to use. There IS a pretribulation Rapture: "...Jesus, who rescues us FROM the coming wrath." 1Thessalonians 1:10; "For God did NOT appoint us to suffer wrath..." 1Thess 5:9; Read Colossians 3:4; Rev. 3:10; Rev. 17:14 & Rev. 19:7-15
Oh so when has the spirit been restraining evil in the world? Why do you have to rely on something happening to prove your belief? I showed you Scripture that disproves this doctrine, where is your Scripture that the spirit is the restrainer and will not be here during the tribulation? So you want to rely on the fact that the righteous are not meant for wrath. I agree, the great tribulation is not the wrath of God, the Greek word tribulation actually means pressure. (cont)
So are you saying Christians can't be under pressure from the adversary? As for the wrath of God that comes after the rapture. That comes at the terrible Day of the LORD when He rescues the righteous and pours His wrath on the inhabitants of the world. Do you not know that the 5 sealin Rev is the tribualtion? The 6th seal is the Day of the LORD; after that the 144000 sealed & there is the rapture in heaven. The 7th seal realeases the angels with the wrath of God. So wrath comes later
@nilhav Millions of Christians have been pressured from the adversary for almost 2,000 years now. The only difference is that we're almost at the END OF THE BOOK. We are Raptured out to go to the Father's House. We have our Crowns in Rev. 4:1-4 We are not going to go through God's testing Revelation 3:10, The Tribulation Period is for the whole, unbelieving world. The 144,000 Jews & 2 Witnesses will preach the Gospel, because the CHURCH IS NOT THERE. Antichrist is let loose in the 6th seal
Sorry but the 24 elders is not the assembly of Yeshua. Sorry but the world doesn't need to be pressured, you are confusing the great tribulation with the wrath of God. The 144,000 are sealed from the wrath if you noticed, so you are right, the assembly of Yeshua is not there during the wrath but are there during the tribulation. The beast is not let loose in the 6th seal but before that. What does the 1st seal represent? A king with no authority, which means a false messiah.
@nilhav Guess you didn't see where I said I mis-spoke. The anitchrist is loosen in Rev. 6 the 1st seal, with war, famine & death. Through peace, he destroys many. The 1st seal starts the Tribulation, Judgments; when the anitchrist declares himself as God, deserates the Holy of Holies, the Great Tribulation (2nd half of The Tribulation) starts. You can see in Rev. 14 the 144,000 Jewish preachers are Raptured. The 2 Witnesses (2 lampstands - extended Church) have already assended into Heaven
Sorry but I saw the comment & the rapture takes place after the 6th seal in chapt 7:9-17. Sorry but John being brought up to see the vision does not equate the rapture of the Church as pre-trib teachers deceive people into believing. This does not change that Paul said the rapture will not occur until the man of anti-Law is revealed. You are still confusing the tribulation with the time of the wrath of God, the 144,000 are sealed from harm of the wrath of God.
@nilhav You don't think the apostasy has been in force for quite awhile - acceptance of perverted sex (homosexuals), murdering little unborn babies is fine, gay clergy, gosh, I could go on and on. Next thing, the man of sin, the lawless one, the anitchrist are all the same. The Rapture has to happen 1st before he can be revealed. 2Thessalonians 2:5-8 talks of the restrainer, or the one who holds him back. That is the Church (Born again believers), who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
Sin has always been around; apostasy means a forsaking, a turning away from something. But that is besides the point Paul says the rapture will not occur until the man of anti-Law is revealed. He only says that the restrainer is holding him back now from being revealed. He doesn't say the restrainer is the Church or the holy spirit; you are putting words in his mouth with no Scriptural back up. You are only pushing a doctrine of men.
Correct so if false messiah are set loose in the first seal, the 5th seal is the great tribulation, after the 6th seal is the rapture, so how are believers gone before the 1st & 5th seals?
@nilhav The Rapture of the Church takes place in Rev. 4:1-5 BEFORE the opening of the seals. Please read Revelation from the 1st Chapter, to the last. Don't skip any verses. When there is a gap between a block of verses & the same chapter continues, it means John is switching from seeing things happening in Heaven - then to the things that are happening the same time on earth. It would be impossible for him to write these things at the same time. By the 5th seal, millions have already died.
You need to line up the seals with Matt 24 & thenb you will see. The order is seals 1)false messiah 2)war 3)famine 4)death (pestilence) 5)martyrdom (the great tribulation) 6) Day of the LORD; after this 144,000 on earth is sealed from harm, rapture of a great multitude 7)release of the 7 angels with trumpets of God' s wrath.
So as you see the 7 angels comes after the rapture, & the rapture comes after martyrdom of the great tribulation.
@nilhav I'm not going to argue with you. The Church will be in Heaven during the Tribulation. We are redeemed, represented by the 24 elders. In Chapters 4 & 5 of Revelation, we are praising the Lord. We are with Him. Think what you want, reject all that you want, that is up to you. We are with Jesus Christ when He opens the 1st Seal. We are with Him even before that. There could be up to many years between the Rapture and the opening of the Seals. Many millions are receiving their Crowns
Reject the truth if you want, I hope you don't lose faith in the true God when you are still here, & realize Christian teachers lied to you. You will then realize you have no Scriptural basis for anything you have said, only your desire that 24 elders represent you and the restrainer is the Church. So according to you Paul lied when he said the rapture will not occur until the man of anti-Law is revealed. Yeshua must have lied when he said he told you everything yet no pre-trib in Matt 24
@nilhav The Church hadn't been established yet in Matthew 24 & 25. Jesus had to die 1st & be resurrected before there could ever be a Church. He was talking to the Jews, explaining to them (& the last generation) what was going to happen before He came back. However, when He talked to His disciples in John 14:1-4, He was very specific. He's coming to get us; the "mystery" that Paul explains in 1Corinthians 15 & again in 1Thessalonians 4. The "man of sin" is revealved AFTER the Rapture.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and the gates of the grave will not prevail against it.
So his assembly was established. Sorry but you said he was talking to the Jews in Matt 24; well I hope you see how this is a deception by pre-trib teachers who want you not to believe he was talking to his followers. (CONT)
Matt 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4And Yeshua answered and said unto them
Sorry he was talking to his disciples privately, not to the Jewish public as pre-trib teachers want you to believe so you wouldn't think he is talking to his followers. He says YOU will be persecuted, he give YOU signs to look for to the end.
John 14, 1st Cor 15, & 1st Thess 4 has nothing to do with the order of the rapture, it only states the ingathering. Dan 12, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 2nd Thess 2, Rev 6-7 shows the order. Pre-tribbers make Yeshua a liar because he said.
@nilhav Do you believe that the 2 Witnesses in Revelation 11 are Raptured - just like John was in Revelation 4:1; "Come up here" We are the Bride/Body, Saints, Holy Ones, Church, Believers of Christ. He takes us Home, before His Judgments & Wrath are poured out upon the whole, unbelieving, unrepentant world. Many will come to Christ during the Trib & they are resurrected in Rev. 20:4-5 Think what you want, but you are the one that's mistaken.
Who does satan decieve in the Kingdom? Rev 20:7-10
You still don't get it, the wrath poured out comes after the rapture. The great tribulation is not the wrath of God, why don't you get that? The Day of the LORD ends the great tribulation, it is the terrible Day of the LORD where He pours His wrath out. This is what you are rescued (raptured) from, and the 144,000 are sealed from. John & the 2 witnesses doesn't represent the believers. The great multitude in Rev 7 does!
@nilhav I believe it is you, my friend, who doesn't get it. We're in heaven in Revelation 4 and beyond. The 144,000 are preaching the Gospel, because the Church IS NOT THERE!!!!!!! The 2 Witnesses are preaching the Gospel because the Church IS NOT THERE!!!!!! Wake up, snap out of it. The 144,000 & the 2 Witnesses are NOT preaching the Gospel right now because the Church IS STILL HERE!!!!!!!! When the 2 Witnesses are murdered, they are Raptured "Come up here" Rev. 11 Read the BIBLE
If I'm wrong then prove how John or the 24 elders represent the Church? Please tell me, for 24 elders represent the Sanhedrin, not the assembly of Yeshua. How are 1 man or 24 people representing a multitude, yet we see the multitude in chpt 7?
You are absolutely right the assembly is not on earth with the 144,000, because they are on earth during the wrath that comes after the rapture; they are not sealed during the tribulation. Where does it say they preach the gospel?
So it is you who don't get it, the 144,000 are sealed after the 6th seal. What are they sealed from? The wrath of God! What happens next? John looks up & see a great multitude in heaven, that's the rapture! WAKE UP! The elder says these are those who come out of the tribulation! GOT IT? What happens after that? The 7th seal is opened and the 7 angels of wrath are released. You don't get that the wrath of God, which is the 7th seal, & is not the tribulation, which is the 5th seal.
@nilhav The Great Tribulation STARTS when the antichrist demands that everyone get his mark or number, and makes them worship him or his image in Rev. 13; when John then looks around Heaven, that when he sees the 144,000 & Jesus standing on the Mt of Olives, they are then in Heaven. In the 5th Seal the Great Tribulation has already been in Progress......Those Tribulation Saints in the 5th seal are the same ones who are resurrected in Rev. 20:4-6 at the start of the 1.000 year reign of Christ.
What you said is basically correct, so I don't see why you are not getting it. The 6 seals match the events of Matt 24. Nowhere is there a pre-trib rapture, the rapture occurs after the 6th seal and is seen in chp 7.
Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken
Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
Matt 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the human being in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the human being coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Rev 6:15 The kings of the earth... & everyone else...hid in caves & among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains & the rocks, “Fall on us & hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne & from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come
Matt 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (RAPTURE)
Rev 7:3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel... 9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count (RAPTURE)
@nilhav Sir, Matthew 24-25 take place in Revelation 19. That's when he sends His angels to gather the elect, all those Christians & Jews, who make it through the Tribulation ALIVE. You are mixing Rapture Scripture with 2nd Coming Scripture. When John looks around and sees a multitude he couldn't count, who are they? They ARE NOT from the Rapture. Read Rev. 7:17. They come out of the Great Tribulation.. Their spirits & souls are in Heaven, their bodies are Not. They do NOT get Raptured.
Where do you get the idea that Matt 24-25 takes place in Rev 19? Let me ask you a question, when do you think the beast gets defeated? At what point within 7 seals, 7 trumpets, or 7 bowls?
The multitude in Rev 7 is the rapture because they are raptured out of the great tribulation as the elder says. How could it not be when the sign of the day of the LORD occurs in the 6th seal, which is the sign in Matt 24:29? So how do you push this all the way to Rev 19?
@nilhav "...and I saw the SOULS of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had NOT worshiped the BEAST or his image and had NOT received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They CAME TO LIFE and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:4 Now, you can go ahead and argue with God if you like. They are the 1st ones "resurrected" after His 2nd Coming. Argue, argue, argue. They were NEVER Raptured.
Yes those killed during the great tribulation as we saw in the 5th seal are resurrected at the beginning of the kingdom. You said the great multitude in Rev 7 were those dead, wrong! We saw them in under the altar in the 5th seal. The truth is that 1 Thess 4 is the only place that says incorrectly that the dead will be resurrected first and raptured. All other foundational passages disagrees with that, so 1 Thess 4 contradicts. I show you proof.
Dan 12:1 There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. (THE LIVING RAPTURED) 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Notice those alive are delivered after during the tribulation, then after the resurrection of the just & then the wicked.
@nilhav Yes, they are RESURRECTED, because they ARE NOT Raptured. In the Rapture the "dead in Christ" RISE 1st, then we who are still ALIVE are changed, then meet with Christ & the "dead in Christ" IN THE AIR. The next to be Raptured are the 2 Witnesses, then the 144,000. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE in the Resurrection & the Rapture. The 2 Witnesses are DEAD. They come to life, but nothing is said of a resurrection, but we know that to be Raptured, the DEAD come alive & rise UP to Heaven.
Again I repeat, 1 Thess 4 contradicts the rest of Scripture. Where else does it show the dead raised first? Rev says the FIRST RESURRECTION. So the dead could not be raised before this.
@nilhav Resurrection = raising from the dead Jesus & he also raised many from the dead
Rapture- to snatch away quickly from the Greek HARPAZO - Enoch, Elijah, John & the Church, the 144,000.
Ascend or Ascension = to move slowly upwards - to Heaven
Since the 2 Witnesses are resurrected, then move slowly to heaven they actually "ascended" but we call it Rapture, because the LEFT EARTH.....just like JESUS DID
Many people think it's remarkable for us to rise up to Heaven - but we WILL
Uh Duh! I know what resurrected, rapture, & ascension means, I don't see how explaining this helps your point. Sorry if you don't like it but the assembly of Yeshua does go through the tribulation, for the Bible doesn't say you they will miss it. The problem is you believe something that is not in Scripture, but came from the 1830s. Show me one verse that describes a rapture before the tribulation? JUST ONE!
@nilhav Your problem is that you've got the Church going through the Tribulation Period, when they DON'T. The martyrd MISSED the Rapture, but ACCEPT Christ during the Tribulation Period.
Actually in John, Yeshua says no man can come accept through the Spirit, which means no man can turn to God but by the spirit. So how do you believe that people can turn to God after the secret rapture if you believe the holy spirit is taken away? CONTRADICTION! Sorry but the martyred get a greater reward, so why would those left behind get a greater reward than you? CONTRADICTION! The martyred doesn't miss anything, no scripture for this.
@nilhav Well, their bodies are NOT in Heaven, only their "souls". Their bodies are "resurrected" after Christ & His Church come BACK to Earth. They MISSED the Rapture & had to go through the "hour of tesing" Rev. 3:10
@nilhav I might also add, that a lot of "backsliding" Christians will go through the Tribulation Period also. Revelation 17:14 says Christ comes back WITH His "called, chosen & FAITHFUL followers." There will be many people who will be acting very sinful when the Rapture happens. Once you're saved you're always saved, but that doesn't mean you'll be included in the Rapture. That's why we are to always to be living for the Lord, because we don't know when He's coming for us.
Rev 17:14 is not the rapture buddy, this is the battle of Armageddon. That time period is also not the tribulation either, but the terrible Day of the LORD. You haven't gotten it yet, you are only holding on to tradition & doctrine of men.
@nilhav I didn't say it was the Rapture. That happens in Revelation 4:1-5 Rev. 17:14 states that His "called, chosen & faithful followers" come back WITH Him when they try to make war with Him. The Bride comes back WITH Jesus. The "dead in Christ" & "we who are still alive" (at the time of the Rapture), meet Christ IN THE AIR. Tribulation Saints NEVER "meet" Christ in the air, because they MISSED the Rapture. The Rapture happens BEFORE the Tribulation Period which is the "hour of testing"
Like I knew, you couldn't quote one verse that shows a rapture before the tribulation. Sorry but John doesn't represent a multitude of believers, he was just brought in the vision. To believe John represents the rapture of believers is a joke. Sorry but we see the rapture in chp 7, sorry. The army of heaven that comes down was raptured in chp 7 not chp 4, sorry.
Do me a favor, in Matt alone, show me where the pre-trib is taught? If you can't find it there go to Mark, just those 2.
You are still in denial. What does this verse mean to you?
Matt 24:3 As Yeshua was sitting on the Mount of Olives, THE DISCIPLES CAME TO HIM PRIVATELY. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Still where is the pre-trib rapture taught in Matt or Mark? Saying he was talking to the Jews, which he wasn't, still doesn't teach a pre-trib rapture. SHOW ME!
@nilhav I am not in denial about anything. Matthew 24 is the TRIBULATION PERIOD. Match up all the plagues & judgments. In Revelation 19:11-13 is the 2nd Coming of Christ. All of what He says in Matthew 24 has just happened. He comes back in GREAT GLORY, will split the Mt. of Olives, sends out His angels to gather those who made it through the Tribulation ALIVE, He separates the "sheep from the goats". Sheep are Believers; goats are unbelievers who make it through ALIVE.
Again you are avoiding truth by not answering the questions; this is why you are deceived by pre-tribbers. I know the pre-trib theology I don't need a explanation. I am simply asking you to show me in Matt or Mark where the pre-tribulation rapture is taught by Yeshua?
Also you never explain what Matt 24:3 means to you, & where it says he was just talking to the Jewish nation, & not to his disciples? If not then you are in denial.
@nilhav 3 questions: When will this happen? What will be the signs of your coming? And the end of the age? He's talking about the Jewish nation to the disciples. Parable of the 10 virgins...Matthew No one knows the day or the hour.... Mark. Upper room right before the Passover Feast after Judas leaves ....John - During the Tribulation they'll know exactly when Christ comes back.....Daniel 12
His disciples ask a question so he answers it. He gives then signs to look for to know when the end of the age is near & his coming. So if none of his followers are there when these things happen, why give signs to look for? He is not talking to the Jewish nation. Sorry all of these examples you gave are just verses why you think there is a pre-trib rapture, but nothing teaches a pre-trib rapture. What does the 10 virgins parable teach of a pre-trib rapture?
Not knowing the day or hour doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture, I never said you would know. What does the upper room & Judas leaving has to do with a pre-trib? You will not know exactly when he comes, so how does any of this teach a pre-trib?
@nilhav Please read Revelation 6:9-11 These are the "souls" of those killed during the GREAT TRIBULATION (which are also in Rev 7:9-14). They are crying out for revenge on those who killed them, but they have to "wait until the number of their fellow servants & brothers are killed". That Means the GREAT TRIBULATION had to START with the opening of the 1st Seal, since they are dead in the 5th Seal. They are "resurrected" in Rev. 20:46. They are NOT Raptured. They do NOT meet Christ in the air
I still don't see your point, how does this prove a pre-trib rapture? Please, do this step by step & show me anywhere in the 4 gospels where Yeshua teach a pre-trib rapture? For he said:
@nilhav See, you aren't even reading the Scripture. If NONE of the Tribulation Saints are Raptured, then the Church HAD to be Raptured BEFORE the opening of the 1st Seal. I really don't think you're interested in anything the Bible has to say, you just want to ridicule & argue. You don't see my point??? The Book of Revelation is written for Believers, not unbelievers. I think I know what category you fit into. I've done all I can to answer your questions, therefore, I wish you the best.
Who are you to judge me? Do I know you? Do you know me? Have i ridiculed anything? I know & follow the word of God, so don't try this cop out excuse to run from the truth. The tribulation saints are raptured in Rev 7:9-17, so I don't see your point? You are believing in falsehood. This is why you cannot disprove anything I say or answer any of my questions yet I disprove all of your points which you continue to ignore, so who is a believer & an unbeliever of truth?
@nilhav I am going to present to you some questions which I have yet to get answered by post trib! Have you ever read Joel ch 2:15-16? This scripture to me cries out pre-trib! v16 says .....let the Bridegroom go forth of His chamber and the bride out of her closet. The word for chamber and closet in the hebrew is huppah a wedding canopy! My question to Post-tribers is if we get caught at the end then why are we in His chamber and coming back with Him to be presented to the world as His bride?
I'm not a post-tribber, so don't get preconceived ideas. You made a comment of getting caught at the end, but the end of what? This is why I don't want preconceived ideas, because you want understand what I'm saying. So First off, Yoel 2:15-16 is not about the rapture, nor is it about the assembly of God; you must read in context. That is literally speaking of a bride & groom, not God & His people. Next, show me the verse that says the assembly of Yeshua is his bride?
@nilhav First, in Revelation 21:1,2 New Jerusalem is seen by John "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." I would like to point out the word "as" which shows a relation without stating that New Jerusalem is the bride. Also that New Jerusalem is a city. Is Christ marrying a city?
Also The 12 gates of New Jerusalem mirror the 12 tribes Revelation 21:12 and the 12 foundations of it are named after the 12 disciples Revelation 21:14. This means New Jerusalem is designed around the people who founded God's people and represented God on the earth. These are all they who lived by faith. Why would the bride have parts of her named after these things? Wouldn't the bride be the center?
You never answered the question of where is the verse that says Yeshua's assembly is the bride? You are also saying the verse I quoted is a lie because it directly says Jerusalem is the bride. It doesn't matter what you think on what is supposed to be the wife of the lamb, that's what it says. Focusing on verse 1 changes nothing because the city is dressed AS a bride because it is the bride. The people are what she is dressed with, so yes they go together, but Jerusalem is the bride.
@nilhav Wow! You just choose not to believe the truth my friend! But I did answer your question!
Who do you think the bridegroom is here?
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.....Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
I didn't ignore any truth, what did you say? I ask for a verse saying the assembly if the bride & you didn't quote one. Instead you chose to quote a verse that you felt appear that Jerusalem wasn't the bride. Yet you denied the messenger who said it was. There is no verse that says the assembly is the bride. Sorry!
As for the parable of the 10 maidens, this the ancient Jewish wedding custom. Is the groom marrying all maidens? NO!
@nilhav Obviously the bridegroom is Jesus Christ and the virgins are believers! and only 5 have recieved the Holy Spirit and the other 5 didn't! The five Spirit filled believers get Raptured and the door is shut!
Who is teaching you? Who is your teacher? Are you just repeating what someones else is telling you what to believe?
No i am not repeating anything, i know the Jewish wedding and understand the parable. OK the 5 get raptured, what does that have to do with anything? I didn't disagree there? Did I say there was no rapture in these Scriptures? So why are you simply pointing out that there is one? This parable doesn't tell at what point it takes place if that was your point. I thought you were focusing on the bride by using that parable.
OK I never denied who the bridegroom was, so why are you pushing that? We were never discussing who the groom was. I thought the angel said let me show you the bride of the lamb? So what are you talking about buddy?
OK the groom comes for his bride. I agree even if we disagree who or what the bride actually is. At least we both agree the people are connected to the bride. Now what's your point? Joel 2:15-16? I read the verse so what does it have to do with the timing of the rapture?
@nilhav My point on Joel was this, the bride is already in heaven with the Lord in His wedding canopy! Then the Lord brings His bride to earth to present His bride to the world at the 2nd coming! Which means the rapture took place before the 2nd coming!
The bride in heaven is nowhere in Joel 2. Read context!
Joel 2:15. Sound a shofar in Zion; proclaim a fast, call an assembly.16. Gather the people, prepare the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the infants and the sucklings; let a bridegroom come out of his chamber and a bride from her canopy.17 Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of HaShem, weep
Where is the tribulation? What about the children, & priests? This doesn't fit!
@nilhav Seems to me you didn't read the ch in its entirety! Joel Ch.2:1-14 is the tribulation. while v1-14 is happening on earth the bride is already in the Lords canopy in heaven and v15 on is the announcement of His coming with His bride to earth at His 2nd coming! Joel 2 agrees with Isaiah 26:19-21
It says let "A" bridegroom come out his chamber. This is not about a bride in heaven. This basically says proclaim a fast get the people together, stop the wedding, let the bride come out of the canopy, let the priests weep, gather the children also. This has nothing to do with the assembly of Yeshua or Yeshua.
@nilhav That "A" Bridegroom as you put it coming out of His chamber is Jesus and the bride is there with Him! Chamber and Closet is the same as huppah a wedding canopy! It takes place in heaven then the Bridegroom comes back at the 2nd coming with His bride! That is what it says if you don't believe it then fine we will have to agree to disagree!
Sorry but there are two Hebrew words used in Joel 2, chamber & canopy; the groom & the bride are not in the same place, nor are they in heaven & refer to Yeshua & his assembly. This is about grooms & brides on earth along with priests, elders & children who should mourn for the terrible thing about to occur.
@nilhav Like I said we will have to agree to disagree! The bride in Joel 2 is the same bride as in Revelation 21! Like I said before The bride is the church, the body of believers in Jesus the Christ!
@nilhav Im not denying rev 21:9-14! that is the church Jew and Gentile which I stated in my earlier post! You already have preconceived ideas and are trying to make the scripture fit those ideals! This scripture perfectly describes you!
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
So when he said I will show you the bride, did he show him the believers? NO! You admit he showed him holy Jerusalem, so Jerusalem is the bride and the robes of white that the righteous will wear will be her garment. So she is adorned by the righteous as a bride is adorned, & the angels says she is the bride, holy Jerusalem.
@nilhav Who do you think this city is for? Is this not the same city in which Jesus said
John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
OK lets cut to the chase. Answer me this, if the pre-trib was not true what would the Scriptures have to say to disprove it? For me all I need to see is a verse describing a rapture of people before the great tribulation. But give me your answer please?
@nilhav The difference that I can see from you and I is you rely on the 7 trumpets of revelation to fulfill Paul's last trump where we are instantaneously changed! The problem is there is more than 7 trumpets blown in revelation! Jesus Christ or Yeshua Hamashiach or better translated Joshua the Messiah is the Same God of the Old Testament and His Voice is the trumpet as in exodus 19 and Revelation 1! To gather His people and to take them on a journey! (cont)
You are a joke! Boy I used to believe in the pre-trib until I was proved to be false by the Scripture. So you are the one in folly, going around talk what you don't know, quoting verses out of context as Joel 2. PLEASE! I asked you to answer a simple question and you want to run. That is the sign of someone not looking for truth but rather hid behind what they have been taught by those ignorant of truth.
@nilhav You have been running! trying not to answer my question and beating around the bush on others! I answer your question and you don't like the answer. That is not my fault you just need more study because you don't have the answer and don't want it! Like I said you don't love the truth because the truth is not in you! You only want your ears tickled!
Numbers 10:2 speaks of two trumpets made of silver! Silver is a picture of redemption and it also explains what these trumpets are used for! The first trump was blown for the nation of Israel to take them on a journey to the promised land and the last trump will be blown for the church and there journey will be heaven to be with the Bride Groom Yeshua in His Wedding Canopy!
@nilhav You have yet to prove anything and I have answered all of your questions what you want is for me to tickle your ears and whisper sweet nothings into your ear! Stop avoiding the issue and really study and prove to me your so called truth!
@nilhav Ha! Thats funny you want me to leave the last trump scenario alone and that is what the rapture is about! Only goes to show that you are afraid of the truth and you truly don't want an answer to your question! Rather you want your ears tickled!
You are the one saying my view is based on the last trumpet said by Paul. I said that it is not, so why are you arguing about something I'm not? That shows who want to run. If I wanted my ears tickled then I would love a pre-trib rapture to take us away, but that's not what the scriptures say. Sorry! Lets see what Paul says next.
2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our lord Yeshua the Christ and our being gathered to him
What is his subject? The coming & the gathering? THE RAPTURE!
2:1 we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the Day of the LORD is IMMINENT.
Wow! You all say it is, yet the Greek word used says it is not imminent. That means it can come any moment.
Because the rapture can't happen at any moment, something must happen before it can happen or else it would be imminent. What does Paul says must happen?
2 Thess 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day will not come until the apostasy occurs and the MAN OF ANTI-LAW IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction.
OH! So the pre-trib is rebuked! The rapture can't happen until the man of anti-Law is revealed before it. OH how blind are you all! It's right in your face!
@nilhav Thats funny its say the apostasy is first then the man is revealed! Go look up the greek word for apostasy and you might learn something you so called genius!
Ignoramus, apostasy mean the forsaking, to turn away. It's funny how Paul says the day of the rapture will not happen until these two things happen first. Yet you are probably thinking apostasy means snatching away, yet Paul specifically says that Day of our gathering to him will not occur until these two event happen first. It's sad that you are calling me a fool over this issue. Just let it be known you began the insults first.
@nilhav Show me the greek definiton by a concordance and where else in the bible the same word is applied! Apostasy has been happening for 2 thousand years!
"Apostasia" is only used one other time in the New Testament, in Acts 21:21 to describe "forsaking", or "going away from" the teachings of Moses. "Apostasion", the noun form, appears in Matt 5:31, & 19:7, and Mark 10:4 where it describes a "writing of divorcement", or "papers that separate". (Again, so someone can go away). "Apostasia" literally then means "to depart, or go away from", and to "go away from what" must be determined from the context.
"Apostasia" was used in extra Biblical Greek literature to describe political revolt, or a "going away from the establishment" and in the Septuagint, or Greek Old Testament, when the Jews would "go away" from God to worship other gods.
@nilhav Had the Apostle Paul already taught the Thessalonians about an "EVENT" that could be described as a "departure", or "going away"? Absolutely, yes. Paul had already taught the Thessalonian Church about the EVENT, of the Catching Away and "Departure" of the Church in 1 Thess 4:13-18. In 2 Thess 2:5, Paul says don’t you remember? When I was with you I taught you about these things?
In the above verses, Paul tells them "that cannot happen", TWO things must occur before the "day of the Lord", or 7 year Tribulation, arrives, #1 "THE departure" first, and #2 "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".
So, I believe Paul proves to the Church at Thessalonica that they are not in the "Tribulation", as someone had written them, because the Seven Year Tribulation cannot begin until the "Rapture" of the Church occurs and the "man of sin", the "Antichrist" is revealed.
If Paul had been referring to a "general falling away from the truth", it would have "proved" nothing to the Church at Thessalonica, because there was "apostasy" at the time, and there have been, and will continue to be great periods of falling away from the truth throughout the Church Age.
Matt 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
So because this was happening from the beginning of time does it means we are at this phase of the signs? Please! You are twisting things for your benefit. Apostasy doesn't mean rapture, the Bible never says rapture but gathering, so how is forsaking & gathering the same thing? You are in denial!
@nilhav I thought we were talking about Paul and the Thessalonians? Why change the subject to Matt 24:10? Didn't Paul tell the Thessalonians about the departure in 1 Thessalonians and reminded them again in 2 Thessalonians about the departure he spoke of from 1 Thessalonians! Where in 1 Thessalonians did Paul speak of the apostasy? He didn't, he spoke of the rapture of the church! Jesus spoke of the rapture of the church in Luke 21:36 and in Rev 3:10 but you choose to ignore these verses!
The subject of Matt 24:10 is apostasy, yet you are saying that it is not a sign, yet Yeshua says it is. So how is it that Paul is not talking about apostasy? He said that day (coming of the lord & our gathering to him) will not come unless two things happen. There is no getting around this. Be honest, stop using wishy washy verses to create an even that is never described in Scripture. NEVER! Where is it DESCRIBED?
@nilhav Like I said show me in 1 Thessalonians where did Paul talked about apostasy? There has been apostasy for 2 thousand years! He had to remind them of the rapture he spoke of! What is about Luke 21 that you don't like? Why do you avoid Luke 21?
He didn't define anything in 1 Thess, all he said was to be encourage that the lord will come. Sorry in 2 Thess he reminds them of the force restraining the beast from coming. What about Luke 21? Pray that you are worthy to make it in doesn't prove anything.
@nilhav Again we can debate this till we are blue in the face and come full circle. I still wouldn't agree with you or believe your interpretation of the scriptures because it doesn't agree with the rest of the scriptures!
Sorry but he says the day of the LORD is the coming of Yeshua & our gathering to him. Sorry but you are twisting Scripture, there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation. He was not say before the tribulation could occur, he said before day of the Lord, which is the coming of the lord & our gathering to him. So but you are completely turning the verses upside down. He says don't believe that day is imminent. What day? The coming of the lord & our gathering to him.
@nilhav 7 years is before the day of the Lord! If it wasn't imminent then why are we commanded to watch and pray? You are the one twisting the scriptures and have not proven no such thing as pre trib! You have yet to make a valid point! That is why you and I do not agree and no matter how many word gymnastic you throw around I will not agree with you because you are wrong! If we agree that Jesus is God died on the cross rose again acceded and is coming back then let leave it at that!
You have to watch for signs. Why does Yehsua give you signs to look for if it is imminent? If it can happen any minute then why does he give his disciples a list of things that will happen? Yet you all say that you will not be here to see any of it. So you are making the whole Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 a lie for you will not be able to watch for those signs. What is the book of Revelation for?
@nilhav Obivously you don't even read revelation! You don't understand that the first 5 chapters is about the church! I understand the signs I get it! What you don't like is the rapture which is described many times in scripture old and new testament! The problem is you want to come out on top of the argument every time so fine you win I lose even though I still don't believe your way of interpretation and I believe you are still wrong!
Pre-tribbers are running around thinking because they don't see the word church after chap 3 that it means the church is gone from the rest of Rev. The word ikklesia simply means assembly, the assembly of Yeshua, not Church. So there is no significance in this word, for it doesn't say the word church in the kingdom age in Rev either. So are you not there? Please! this is ridiculous interpretations, & relying on John being brought up in the vision as the rapture. How ridiculous!
@nilhav This is how ridiculus you are! You think you are so cool it fills you with pride! Why is it that in revelation ch 2 and 3 the Spirit repeats and says "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" and in Revelation ch13:9 the Spirit says "If any man have an ear, let him hear." Did the Spirit forget that the church is still here during the Tribulation or did the Spirit purposely leave that part out because the church is no longer on earth?
@jesusholdmyhand1
there is a problem separating the pre trib rapture and the post when you say thief in the night vs jesus coming in power glory and every eye shall see him as though that is how they are different.
The reason I say this is because the day at the end of the trib after the sun goes dark and he returns then is also described as a thief in rhe night but only for those not watching.
Myhopeisinhim 1 week ago
Omg that is so scary, the rapture part. I literaly jumped out of my seat at how quickly it happened.
Beulah307 2 months ago
the last half of this vid was played at church this morning. This has to be my favorite video EVER! Just imagining how quikly it will be! Thanks for posting and making!!!!!
jimbobgeorgejohn 3 months ago
The 2-stage secret rapture is indeed a lie. The disciples did ask where the ones gathered will go:
"I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left." And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." Luke 17:34-37
Jesus WILL come, on the last day. Not in 2 stages. There will be no do-overs. No 2nd chances.
bibleortraditions 3 months ago
2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our lord Yeshua the Christ and our being gathered to him (RAPTURE), we ask you, brothers & sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the Day of the Lord IS IMMINENT. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day will not come until FIRST the apostasy occurs and the man of Lawlessness is revealed"
SORRY NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE
nilhav 4 months ago
Anyone else jump?
libssukk 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Jesus gave us 2 short parables about the Rapture. Please take a few minutes of your time to read:
Matthew 25:1-13
Matthew 24:36-44
God Bless those who understand. MARANATHA
JesusHoldMyHand1 7 months ago
Jesus comes as a thief in the night: suddenly, quickly (twinkling of an eye) ...VS... Jesus comes in Great Power & Glory & EVERY eye will see Him ...... Jesus comes when we LEAST expect Him (eating/drinking; marrying/giving in marriage; buying/selling; planting/building) ...VS... nuclear war, all mountains/islands disappear, plagues, boils from the sun, all oceans turn to blood/everything dies, 100# hailstones, all greenery burned, massive earthquakes; satanic madmen cutting off people's heads
JesusHoldMyHand1 7 months ago
Genesis 32:30 "So Jacob called the place Peniel (Pemuel) saying, "It is because I saw GOD face to face and yet my life was spared." Yes, Jacob saw the Face of God, the Messiah Jesus Christ. To God be the Glory forever & ever. This brief struggle with the Lord is Genesis 32:22-30
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Oh so it was nothing but you are still secretly posting comments. Jacob said he saw El face to face. El means power, it means he faced the divine, not that he actually saw God. It's funny because he says the same thing about the face of Esau. Yet you are willing to be he saw God, yet God said no mane can see His face & live. So which is it, God's word or your opinion?
nilhav 8 months ago
Behold, I am coming quickly, jesus
no! not yet,not yet!!, the girl hes humping.
ravenlordnz 9 months ago 2
@ravenlordnz "But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you WILL be comdemned." Matthew 12:36-37
JesusHoldMyHand1 9 months ago
Can't wait for this day to never come! May 22nd here I come!
1AndrewTheWolf 10 months ago
@1AndrewTheWolf You are going to be VERY disappointed. Jesus Himself said NO ONE knows the day or the hour. Only FALSE prophets are enspousing WRONG dates & naming the antichrist. The antichrist will NOT be revealed until AFTER the Rapture of the FAITHFUL Believers of Jesus Christ.
JesusHoldMyHand1 10 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 It's even funnier that you couldn't understand my sarcasm.
1AndrewTheWolf 10 months ago
@1AndrewTheWolf You only sound like all the others who are date setting.
JesusHoldMyHand1 10 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Date setting? I'm not setting a date.
1AndrewTheWolf 10 months ago
@1AndrewTheWolf I'm glad. Date setters are absolutely denying God's Word. Thank you for telling me. I appreciate it.
JesusHoldMyHand1 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Also, sorry to disappoint you. I'm atheist, thus my original quote poking fun at the fact some people thought may 21st was rapture. I hope that doesn't obscure your perception of me. I just didn't want to give you a false impression that I'm Christian.
1AndrewTheWolf 9 months ago
@1AndrewTheWolf † JESUS †
JOJODIL1 9 months ago
@JOJODIL1 Your point is?...
1AndrewTheWolf 9 months ago
Comment removed
1AndrewTheWolf 9 months ago
"....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6; "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called, I am he; I am the first and I am the last." Isaiah 48:12; "I am the Alpha and the Omega', says the Lord God, 'who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 (Jesus Speaking); "I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End....I am the Root and the Offspring of David..." Revelation 22:13-16 (Jesus Speaking)
JesusHoldMyHand1 10 months ago
I'm brushing the dust off my feet.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@ nilhav you are entitled to believe what you want and no matter how hard you twist our arms you theory still holds no water. It has a lot of holes and I still do not agree with you and this has nothing to do with darby but if you want to go there we can go back further than darby!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
Events: Rapture Revelation 4:1-5; Martyrd Tribulation Saints...5th Seal; 2 Witnesses Raptured...Rev. 11; Great Tribulation Starts..Rev. 13; 144,000 Jewish Preachers Raptured...Rev. 14 (Same time as GT starts)...2nd Coming of Christ..Rev 19; antichrist & false prophet thrown into lake of fire..satan bound...Tribulation Saints (from 5th Seal - Beheaded) resurrected..(NOT Raptured)...1,000 year reign of Christ...end of 1,000 years satan unbound...deceives nations...thrown into lake of fire.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
1st seal:false messiahs 2nd seal:wars & war rumors 3rd seal:famine 4th seal:death pestilence 5th seal: martyrdom great tribulation 6th seal:sun dark, heavens shaken (rapture takes place/Yeshua comes down with 144,000) 7th seal:7 angels with trumpets of wrath, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7th trumpet:releases 7 angels with bowls of wrath, 1,2,3,4,5,6th bowl:prepares for battle of Armageddon, 7th bowl: final wrath. After this Yeshua comes with army, defeats the beast.
nilhav 11 months ago
Amen!
MsFlayvah 1 year ago
The restrainer is the Holy Spirit of God that lives in each believer. The antichrist will not be revealed until after the Rapture (of the Church - all of those Born Again Believers in which the Holy Spirit dwells). While we're in Heaven with Jesus, we will receive our Crowns & Rewards, watch the Coronation of Jesus Christ & go to the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. We will then come back with Him at His 2nd Coming. Glory be to the Lamb of God, and thank you, Lord for accepting me. Come Soon
JesusHoldMyHand1 1 year ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Nowhere does it say the holy spirit is the restrainer. Lets see what Yeshua says about his disciples in the tribulation.
Mark 10:11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but THE HOLY SPIRIT.
So no, the spirit will not be gone, nor the followers of Yeshua. So what is restraining the beast empire from coming? (CONT)
nilhav 1 year ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
The man of anti-Law & his empire is represented by a beast in the visions. So where could Paul get the idea of something restraining the empire? In Dan 10 a chief prince speaks to Daniel & tells him he is fighting the other princes of empires. The empire at that time was Persia, which he was fighting, and the following empire according to the visions is Greece. He then tell Daniel that when he is gone the prince of Greece will come. (CONT)
nilhav 1 year ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
This means he is restraining the empires from coming and when he is removed the next prince comes. So who is it that is restraining the last empire? Not the holy spirit, and not the Church, but a chief prince, and when he is removed the beast will come. 2 Thess 2 says that the rapture will not occur until after the apostasy happens, & the man of anti-Law is revealed. So no pre-tribulation rapture.
nilhav 1 year ago
@nilhav The Holy Spirit of God has always been the restrainer of evil. Wait until the world is without Believers, then you will see just how much the Chruch, in which the Holy Spirit dwells, actually much evil. God gives satan & his angels just enough rope for them to use. There IS a pretribulation Rapture: "...Jesus, who rescues us FROM the coming wrath." 1Thessalonians 1:10; "For God did NOT appoint us to suffer wrath..." 1Thess 5:9; Read Colossians 3:4; Rev. 3:10; Rev. 17:14 & Rev. 19:7-15
JesusHoldMyHand1 1 year ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Oh so when has the spirit been restraining evil in the world? Why do you have to rely on something happening to prove your belief? I showed you Scripture that disproves this doctrine, where is your Scripture that the spirit is the restrainer and will not be here during the tribulation? So you want to rely on the fact that the righteous are not meant for wrath. I agree, the great tribulation is not the wrath of God, the Greek word tribulation actually means pressure. (cont)
nilhav 1 year ago
@JesusHold
So are you saying Christians can't be under pressure from the adversary? As for the wrath of God that comes after the rapture. That comes at the terrible Day of the LORD when He rescues the righteous and pours His wrath on the inhabitants of the world. Do you not know that the 5 sealin Rev is the tribualtion? The 6th seal is the Day of the LORD; after that the 144000 sealed & there is the rapture in heaven. The 7th seal realeases the angels with the wrath of God. So wrath comes later
nilhav 1 year ago
@nilhav Millions of Christians have been pressured from the adversary for almost 2,000 years now. The only difference is that we're almost at the END OF THE BOOK. We are Raptured out to go to the Father's House. We have our Crowns in Rev. 4:1-4 We are not going to go through God's testing Revelation 3:10, The Tribulation Period is for the whole, unbelieving world. The 144,000 Jews & 2 Witnesses will preach the Gospel, because the CHURCH IS NOT THERE. Antichrist is let loose in the 6th seal
JesusHoldMyHand1 1 year ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Sorry but the 24 elders is not the assembly of Yeshua. Sorry but the world doesn't need to be pressured, you are confusing the great tribulation with the wrath of God. The 144,000 are sealed from the wrath if you noticed, so you are right, the assembly of Yeshua is not there during the wrath but are there during the tribulation. The beast is not let loose in the 6th seal but before that. What does the 1st seal represent? A king with no authority, which means a false messiah.
nilhav 1 year ago
@nilhav Guess you didn't see where I said I mis-spoke. The anitchrist is loosen in Rev. 6 the 1st seal, with war, famine & death. Through peace, he destroys many. The 1st seal starts the Tribulation, Judgments; when the anitchrist declares himself as God, deserates the Holy of Holies, the Great Tribulation (2nd half of The Tribulation) starts. You can see in Rev. 14 the 144,000 Jewish preachers are Raptured. The 2 Witnesses (2 lampstands - extended Church) have already assended into Heaven
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Sorry but I saw the comment & the rapture takes place after the 6th seal in chapt 7:9-17. Sorry but John being brought up to see the vision does not equate the rapture of the Church as pre-trib teachers deceive people into believing. This does not change that Paul said the rapture will not occur until the man of anti-Law is revealed. You are still confusing the tribulation with the time of the wrath of God, the 144,000 are sealed from harm of the wrath of God.
nilhav 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
So as Paul said, the rapture will not occur until the apostasy and the man of anti-Law is revelaed. You cannot change what it says!
nilhav 1 year ago
@nilhav You don't think the apostasy has been in force for quite awhile - acceptance of perverted sex (homosexuals), murdering little unborn babies is fine, gay clergy, gosh, I could go on and on. Next thing, the man of sin, the lawless one, the anitchrist are all the same. The Rapture has to happen 1st before he can be revealed. 2Thessalonians 2:5-8 talks of the restrainer, or the one who holds him back. That is the Church (Born again believers), who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
JesusHoldMyHand1 1 year ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Sin has always been around; apostasy means a forsaking, a turning away from something. But that is besides the point Paul says the rapture will not occur until the man of anti-Law is revealed. He only says that the restrainer is holding him back now from being revealed. He doesn't say the restrainer is the Church or the holy spirit; you are putting words in his mouth with no Scriptural back up. You are only pushing a doctrine of men.
nilhav 1 year ago
@nilhav Again, I mis-spoke. The antichrist is set loose in Revelation 6 The 1st Seal
JesusHoldMyHand1 1 year ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Correct so if false messiah are set loose in the first seal, the 5th seal is the great tribulation, after the 6th seal is the rapture, so how are believers gone before the 1st & 5th seals?
nilhav 1 year ago
@nilhav The Rapture of the Church takes place in Rev. 4:1-5 BEFORE the opening of the seals. Please read Revelation from the 1st Chapter, to the last. Don't skip any verses. When there is a gap between a block of verses & the same chapter continues, it means John is switching from seeing things happening in Heaven - then to the things that are happening the same time on earth. It would be impossible for him to write these things at the same time. By the 5th seal, millions have already died.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
You need to line up the seals with Matt 24 & thenb you will see. The order is seals 1)false messiah 2)war 3)famine 4)death (pestilence) 5)martyrdom (the great tribulation) 6) Day of the LORD; after this 144,000 on earth is sealed from harm, rapture of a great multitude 7)release of the 7 angels with trumpets of God' s wrath.
So as you see the 7 angels comes after the rapture, & the rapture comes after martyrdom of the great tribulation.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav I'm not going to argue with you. The Church will be in Heaven during the Tribulation. We are redeemed, represented by the 24 elders. In Chapters 4 & 5 of Revelation, we are praising the Lord. We are with Him. Think what you want, reject all that you want, that is up to you. We are with Jesus Christ when He opens the 1st Seal. We are with Him even before that. There could be up to many years between the Rapture and the opening of the Seals. Many millions are receiving their Crowns
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@Jesus
Reject the truth if you want, I hope you don't lose faith in the true God when you are still here, & realize Christian teachers lied to you. You will then realize you have no Scriptural basis for anything you have said, only your desire that 24 elders represent you and the restrainer is the Church. So according to you Paul lied when he said the rapture will not occur until the man of anti-Law is revealed. Yeshua must have lied when he said he told you everything yet no pre-trib in Matt 24
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav The Church hadn't been established yet in Matthew 24 & 25. Jesus had to die 1st & be resurrected before there could ever be a Church. He was talking to the Jews, explaining to them (& the last generation) what was going to happen before He came back. However, when He talked to His disciples in John 14:1-4, He was very specific. He's coming to get us; the "mystery" that Paul explains in 1Corinthians 15 & again in 1Thessalonians 4. The "man of sin" is revealved AFTER the Rapture.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Sorry but the word ikklessia means assembly, not Church. So Yeshua's assembly doesn't start after he dies.
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and the gates of the grave will not prevail against it.
So his assembly was established. Sorry but you said he was talking to the Jews in Matt 24; well I hope you see how this is a deception by pre-trib teachers who want you not to believe he was talking to his followers. (CONT)
nilhav 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMy
Matt 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4And Yeshua answered and said unto them
Sorry he was talking to his disciples privately, not to the Jewish public as pre-trib teachers want you to believe so you wouldn't think he is talking to his followers. He says YOU will be persecuted, he give YOU signs to look for to the end.
nilhav 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
John 14, 1st Cor 15, & 1st Thess 4 has nothing to do with the order of the rapture, it only states the ingathering. Dan 12, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 2nd Thess 2, Rev 6-7 shows the order. Pre-tribbers make Yeshua a liar because he said.
Mark 13:23
So be on your guard; I have told YOU everything ahead of time
He didn't mention a rapture before everything he told them to look for. How are these signs of his coming for them if they can't see them?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Do you believe that the 2 Witnesses in Revelation 11 are Raptured - just like John was in Revelation 4:1; "Come up here" We are the Bride/Body, Saints, Holy Ones, Church, Believers of Christ. He takes us Home, before His Judgments & Wrath are poured out upon the whole, unbelieving, unrepentant world. Many will come to Christ during the Trib & they are resurrected in Rev. 20:4-5 Think what you want, but you are the one that's mistaken.
Who does satan decieve in the Kingdom? Rev 20:7-10
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
You still don't get it, the wrath poured out comes after the rapture. The great tribulation is not the wrath of God, why don't you get that? The Day of the LORD ends the great tribulation, it is the terrible Day of the LORD where He pours His wrath out. This is what you are rescued (raptured) from, and the 144,000 are sealed from. John & the 2 witnesses doesn't represent the believers. The great multitude in Rev 7 does!
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav I believe it is you, my friend, who doesn't get it. We're in heaven in Revelation 4 and beyond. The 144,000 are preaching the Gospel, because the Church IS NOT THERE!!!!!!! The 2 Witnesses are preaching the Gospel because the Church IS NOT THERE!!!!!! Wake up, snap out of it. The 144,000 & the 2 Witnesses are NOT preaching the Gospel right now because the Church IS STILL HERE!!!!!!!! When the 2 Witnesses are murdered, they are Raptured "Come up here" Rev. 11 Read the BIBLE
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
If I'm wrong then prove how John or the 24 elders represent the Church? Please tell me, for 24 elders represent the Sanhedrin, not the assembly of Yeshua. How are 1 man or 24 people representing a multitude, yet we see the multitude in chpt 7?
You are absolutely right the assembly is not on earth with the 144,000, because they are on earth during the wrath that comes after the rapture; they are not sealed during the tribulation. Where does it say they preach the gospel?
nilhav 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMy
So it is you who don't get it, the 144,000 are sealed after the 6th seal. What are they sealed from? The wrath of God! What happens next? John looks up & see a great multitude in heaven, that's the rapture! WAKE UP! The elder says these are those who come out of the tribulation! GOT IT? What happens after that? The 7th seal is opened and the 7 angels of wrath are released. You don't get that the wrath of God, which is the 7th seal, & is not the tribulation, which is the 5th seal.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav You are absolutely WRONG
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@nilhav The Great Tribulation STARTS when the antichrist demands that everyone get his mark or number, and makes them worship him or his image in Rev. 13; when John then looks around Heaven, that when he sees the 144,000 & Jesus standing on the Mt of Olives, they are then in Heaven. In the 5th Seal the Great Tribulation has already been in Progress......Those Tribulation Saints in the 5th seal are the same ones who are resurrected in Rev. 20:4-6 at the start of the 1.000 year reign of Christ.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
What you said is basically correct, so I don't see why you are not getting it. The 6 seals match the events of Matt 24. Nowhere is there a pre-trib rapture, the rapture occurs after the 6th seal and is seen in chp 7.
nilhav 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken
Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
nilhav 11 months ago
@JesusHold
Matt 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the human being in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the human being coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Rev 6:15 The kings of the earth... & everyone else...hid in caves & among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains & the rocks, “Fall on us & hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne & from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come
nilhav 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Matt 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (RAPTURE)
Rev 7:3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel... 9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count (RAPTURE)
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Sir, Matthew 24-25 take place in Revelation 19. That's when he sends His angels to gather the elect, all those Christians & Jews, who make it through the Tribulation ALIVE. You are mixing Rapture Scripture with 2nd Coming Scripture. When John looks around and sees a multitude he couldn't count, who are they? They ARE NOT from the Rapture. Read Rev. 7:17. They come out of the Great Tribulation.. Their spirits & souls are in Heaven, their bodies are Not. They do NOT get Raptured.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Where do you get the idea that Matt 24-25 takes place in Rev 19? Let me ask you a question, when do you think the beast gets defeated? At what point within 7 seals, 7 trumpets, or 7 bowls?
The multitude in Rev 7 is the rapture because they are raptured out of the great tribulation as the elder says. How could it not be when the sign of the day of the LORD occurs in the 6th seal, which is the sign in Matt 24:29? So how do you push this all the way to Rev 19?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav "...and I saw the SOULS of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had NOT worshiped the BEAST or his image and had NOT received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They CAME TO LIFE and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:4 Now, you can go ahead and argue with God if you like. They are the 1st ones "resurrected" after His 2nd Coming. Argue, argue, argue. They were NEVER Raptured.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Yes those killed during the great tribulation as we saw in the 5th seal are resurrected at the beginning of the kingdom. You said the great multitude in Rev 7 were those dead, wrong! We saw them in under the altar in the 5th seal. The truth is that 1 Thess 4 is the only place that says incorrectly that the dead will be resurrected first and raptured. All other foundational passages disagrees with that, so 1 Thess 4 contradicts. I show you proof.
nilhav 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Dan 12:1 There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. (THE LIVING RAPTURED) 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Notice those alive are delivered after during the tribulation, then after the resurrection of the just & then the wicked.
nilhav 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
What does Rev 20 says? It says those who were killed were resurrected at the beginning of the kingdom age. What does it say about their resurrection?
Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the FIRST RESURRECTION.
So if this is the first general resurrection, then there was none before this.
Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 all show a rapture but no resurrection at that time.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Yes, they are RESURRECTED, because they ARE NOT Raptured. In the Rapture the "dead in Christ" RISE 1st, then we who are still ALIVE are changed, then meet with Christ & the "dead in Christ" IN THE AIR. The next to be Raptured are the 2 Witnesses, then the 144,000. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE in the Resurrection & the Rapture. The 2 Witnesses are DEAD. They come to life, but nothing is said of a resurrection, but we know that to be Raptured, the DEAD come alive & rise UP to Heaven.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Again I repeat, 1 Thess 4 contradicts the rest of Scripture. Where else does it show the dead raised first? Rev says the FIRST RESURRECTION. So the dead could not be raised before this.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Resurrection = raising from the dead Jesus & he also raised many from the dead
Rapture- to snatch away quickly from the Greek HARPAZO - Enoch, Elijah, John & the Church, the 144,000.
Ascend or Ascension = to move slowly upwards - to Heaven
Since the 2 Witnesses are resurrected, then move slowly to heaven they actually "ascended" but we call it Rapture, because the LEFT EARTH.....just like JESUS DID
Many people think it's remarkable for us to rise up to Heaven - but we WILL
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Uh Duh! I know what resurrected, rapture, & ascension means, I don't see how explaining this helps your point. Sorry if you don't like it but the assembly of Yeshua does go through the tribulation, for the Bible doesn't say you they will miss it. The problem is you believe something that is not in Scripture, but came from the 1830s. Show me one verse that describes a rapture before the tribulation? JUST ONE!
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Your problem is that you've got the Church going through the Tribulation Period, when they DON'T. The martyrd MISSED the Rapture, but ACCEPT Christ during the Tribulation Period.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Actually in John, Yeshua says no man can come accept through the Spirit, which means no man can turn to God but by the spirit. So how do you believe that people can turn to God after the secret rapture if you believe the holy spirit is taken away? CONTRADICTION! Sorry but the martyred get a greater reward, so why would those left behind get a greater reward than you? CONTRADICTION! The martyred doesn't miss anything, no scripture for this.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Well, their bodies are NOT in Heaven, only their "souls". Their bodies are "resurrected" after Christ & His Church come BACK to Earth. They MISSED the Rapture & had to go through the "hour of tesing" Rev. 3:10
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@nilhav I might also add, that a lot of "backsliding" Christians will go through the Tribulation Period also. Revelation 17:14 says Christ comes back WITH His "called, chosen & FAITHFUL followers." There will be many people who will be acting very sinful when the Rapture happens. Once you're saved you're always saved, but that doesn't mean you'll be included in the Rapture. That's why we are to always to be living for the Lord, because we don't know when He's coming for us.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Rev 17:14 is not the rapture buddy, this is the battle of Armageddon. That time period is also not the tribulation either, but the terrible Day of the LORD. You haven't gotten it yet, you are only holding on to tradition & doctrine of men.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav I didn't say it was the Rapture. That happens in Revelation 4:1-5 Rev. 17:14 states that His "called, chosen & faithful followers" come back WITH Him when they try to make war with Him. The Bride comes back WITH Jesus. The "dead in Christ" & "we who are still alive" (at the time of the Rapture), meet Christ IN THE AIR. Tribulation Saints NEVER "meet" Christ in the air, because they MISSED the Rapture. The Rapture happens BEFORE the Tribulation Period which is the "hour of testing"
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHold
Like I knew, you couldn't quote one verse that shows a rapture before the tribulation. Sorry but John doesn't represent a multitude of believers, he was just brought in the vision. To believe John represents the rapture of believers is a joke. Sorry but we see the rapture in chp 7, sorry. The army of heaven that comes down was raptured in chp 7 not chp 4, sorry.
Do me a favor, in Matt alone, show me where the pre-trib is taught? If you can't find it there go to Mark, just those 2.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Jesus is talking to the Jews about His 2nd Coming. What is so hard for you to comprehend???
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
You are still in denial. What does this verse mean to you?
Matt 24:3 As Yeshua was sitting on the Mount of Olives, THE DISCIPLES CAME TO HIM PRIVATELY. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Still where is the pre-trib rapture taught in Matt or Mark? Saying he was talking to the Jews, which he wasn't, still doesn't teach a pre-trib rapture. SHOW ME!
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav I am not in denial about anything. Matthew 24 is the TRIBULATION PERIOD. Match up all the plagues & judgments. In Revelation 19:11-13 is the 2nd Coming of Christ. All of what He says in Matthew 24 has just happened. He comes back in GREAT GLORY, will split the Mt. of Olives, sends out His angels to gather those who made it through the Tribulation ALIVE, He separates the "sheep from the goats". Sheep are Believers; goats are unbelievers who make it through ALIVE.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Again you are avoiding truth by not answering the questions; this is why you are deceived by pre-tribbers. I know the pre-trib theology I don't need a explanation. I am simply asking you to show me in Matt or Mark where the pre-tribulation rapture is taught by Yeshua?
Also you never explain what Matt 24:3 means to you, & where it says he was just talking to the Jewish nation, & not to his disciples? If not then you are in denial.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav 3 questions: When will this happen? What will be the signs of your coming? And the end of the age? He's talking about the Jewish nation to the disciples. Parable of the 10 virgins...Matthew No one knows the day or the hour.... Mark. Upper room right before the Passover Feast after Judas leaves ....John - During the Tribulation they'll know exactly when Christ comes back.....Daniel 12
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
His disciples ask a question so he answers it. He gives then signs to look for to know when the end of the age is near & his coming. So if none of his followers are there when these things happen, why give signs to look for? He is not talking to the Jewish nation. Sorry all of these examples you gave are just verses why you think there is a pre-trib rapture, but nothing teaches a pre-trib rapture. What does the 10 virgins parable teach of a pre-trib rapture?
nilhav 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Not knowing the day or hour doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture, I never said you would know. What does the upper room & Judas leaving has to do with a pre-trib? You will not know exactly when he comes, so how does any of this teach a pre-trib?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Please read Revelation 6:9-11 These are the "souls" of those killed during the GREAT TRIBULATION (which are also in Rev 7:9-14). They are crying out for revenge on those who killed them, but they have to "wait until the number of their fellow servants & brothers are killed". That Means the GREAT TRIBULATION had to START with the opening of the 1st Seal, since they are dead in the 5th Seal. They are "resurrected" in Rev. 20:46. They are NOT Raptured. They do NOT meet Christ in the air
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
I still don't see your point, how does this prove a pre-trib rapture? Please, do this step by step & show me anywhere in the 4 gospels where Yeshua teach a pre-trib rapture? For he said:
Mark 13:23
So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
So is he lying?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav See, you aren't even reading the Scripture. If NONE of the Tribulation Saints are Raptured, then the Church HAD to be Raptured BEFORE the opening of the 1st Seal. I really don't think you're interested in anything the Bible has to say, you just want to ridicule & argue. You don't see my point??? The Book of Revelation is written for Believers, not unbelievers. I think I know what category you fit into. I've done all I can to answer your questions, therefore, I wish you the best.
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Who are you to judge me? Do I know you? Do you know me? Have i ridiculed anything? I know & follow the word of God, so don't try this cop out excuse to run from the truth. The tribulation saints are raptured in Rev 7:9-17, so I don't see your point? You are believing in falsehood. This is why you cannot disprove anything I say or answer any of my questions yet I disprove all of your points which you continue to ignore, so who is a believer & an unbeliever of truth?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav I am going to present to you some questions which I have yet to get answered by post trib! Have you ever read Joel ch 2:15-16? This scripture to me cries out pre-trib! v16 says .....let the Bridegroom go forth of His chamber and the bride out of her closet. The word for chamber and closet in the hebrew is huppah a wedding canopy! My question to Post-tribers is if we get caught at the end then why are we in His chamber and coming back with Him to be presented to the world as His bride?
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman
I'm not a post-tribber, so don't get preconceived ideas. You made a comment of getting caught at the end, but the end of what? This is why I don't want preconceived ideas, because you want understand what I'm saying. So First off, Yoel 2:15-16 is not about the rapture, nor is it about the assembly of God; you must read in context. That is literally speaking of a bride & groom, not God & His people. Next, show me the verse that says the assembly of Yeshua is his bride?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav First, in Revelation 21:1,2 New Jerusalem is seen by John "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." I would like to point out the word "as" which shows a relation without stating that New Jerusalem is the bride. Also that New Jerusalem is a city. Is Christ marrying a city?
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
Also The 12 gates of New Jerusalem mirror the 12 tribes Revelation 21:12 and the 12 foundations of it are named after the 12 disciples Revelation 21:14. This means New Jerusalem is designed around the people who founded God's people and represented God on the earth. These are all they who lived by faith. Why would the bride have parts of her named after these things? Wouldn't the bride be the center?
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
You don't create a city that you marry that's named after the ones you love, you marry the ones you love and name cities after them.
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman
You never answered the question of where is the verse that says Yeshua's assembly is the bride? You are also saying the verse I quoted is a lie because it directly says Jerusalem is the bride. It doesn't matter what you think on what is supposed to be the wife of the lamb, that's what it says. Focusing on verse 1 changes nothing because the city is dressed AS a bride because it is the bride. The people are what she is dressed with, so yes they go together, but Jerusalem is the bride.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Wow! You just choose not to believe the truth my friend! But I did answer your question!
Who do you think the bridegroom is here?
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.....Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
Correct, you will not know the day or the hour. Any other questions?
nilhav 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
I didn't ignore any truth, what did you say? I ask for a verse saying the assembly if the bride & you didn't quote one. Instead you chose to quote a verse that you felt appear that Jerusalem wasn't the bride. Yet you denied the messenger who said it was. There is no verse that says the assembly is the bride. Sorry!
As for the parable of the 10 maidens, this the ancient Jewish wedding custom. Is the groom marrying all maidens? NO!
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Obviously the bridegroom is Jesus Christ and the virgins are believers! and only 5 have recieved the Holy Spirit and the other 5 didn't! The five Spirit filled believers get Raptured and the door is shut!
Who is teaching you? Who is your teacher? Are you just repeating what someones else is telling you what to believe?
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
No i am not repeating anything, i know the Jewish wedding and understand the parable. OK the 5 get raptured, what does that have to do with anything? I didn't disagree there? Did I say there was no rapture in these Scriptures? So why are you simply pointing out that there is one? This parable doesn't tell at what point it takes place if that was your point. I thought you were focusing on the bride by using that parable.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav My point is the Bridegroom is Jesus coming for His bride!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
OK I never denied who the bridegroom was, so why are you pushing that? We were never discussing who the groom was. I thought the angel said let me show you the bride of the lamb? So what are you talking about buddy?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav You are the one who disagreed with Joel ch 2:15 - 16! What is your point?
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
OK the groom comes for his bride. I agree even if we disagree who or what the bride actually is. At least we both agree the people are connected to the bride. Now what's your point? Joel 2:15-16? I read the verse so what does it have to do with the timing of the rapture?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav My point on Joel was this, the bride is already in heaven with the Lord in His wedding canopy! Then the Lord brings His bride to earth to present His bride to the world at the 2nd coming! Which means the rapture took place before the 2nd coming!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
The bride in heaven is nowhere in Joel 2. Read context!
Joel 2:15. Sound a shofar in Zion; proclaim a fast, call an assembly.16. Gather the people, prepare the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the infants and the sucklings; let a bridegroom come out of his chamber and a bride from her canopy.17 Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of HaShem, weep
Where is the tribulation? What about the children, & priests? This doesn't fit!
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Seems to me you didn't read the ch in its entirety! Joel Ch.2:1-14 is the tribulation. while v1-14 is happening on earth the bride is already in the Lords canopy in heaven and v15 on is the announcement of His coming with His bride to earth at His 2nd coming! Joel 2 agrees with Isaiah 26:19-21
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
It says let "A" bridegroom come out his chamber. This is not about a bride in heaven. This basically says proclaim a fast get the people together, stop the wedding, let the bride come out of the canopy, let the priests weep, gather the children also. This has nothing to do with the assembly of Yeshua or Yeshua.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav That "A" Bridegroom as you put it coming out of His chamber is Jesus and the bride is there with Him! Chamber and Closet is the same as huppah a wedding canopy! It takes place in heaven then the Bridegroom comes back at the 2nd coming with His bride! That is what it says if you don't believe it then fine we will have to agree to disagree!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
Sorry but there are two Hebrew words used in Joel 2, chamber & canopy; the groom & the bride are not in the same place, nor are they in heaven & refer to Yeshua & his assembly. This is about grooms & brides on earth along with priests, elders & children who should mourn for the terrible thing about to occur.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Like I said we will have to agree to disagree! The bride in Joel 2 is the same bride as in Revelation 21! Like I said before The bride is the church, the body of believers in Jesus the Christ!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
Fine we can disagree, but then you are denying Rev 21:9-14.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Im not denying rev 21:9-14! that is the church Jew and Gentile which I stated in my earlier post! You already have preconceived ideas and are trying to make the scripture fit those ideals! This scripture perfectly describes you!
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
If you are not denying Rev 21:9-14 then when the angels says he will show John the bride of the lamb, what does he show him?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav New Jerusalem where the church will dwell as I explained in my earlier post!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
So when he said I will show you the bride, did he show him the believers? NO! You admit he showed him holy Jerusalem, so Jerusalem is the bride and the robes of white that the righteous will wear will be her garment. So she is adorned by the righteous as a bride is adorned, & the angels says she is the bride, holy Jerusalem.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Who do you think this city is for? Is this not the same city in which Jesus said
John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
Mansions in case you where wondering is abode's a room for you and me if you believe it!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
OK lets cut to the chase. Answer me this, if the pre-trib was not true what would the Scriptures have to say to disprove it? For me all I need to see is a verse describing a rapture of people before the great tribulation. But give me your answer please?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav The difference that I can see from you and I is you rely on the 7 trumpets of revelation to fulfill Paul's last trump where we are instantaneously changed! The problem is there is more than 7 trumpets blown in revelation! Jesus Christ or Yeshua Hamashiach or better translated Joshua the Messiah is the Same God of the Old Testament and His Voice is the trumpet as in exodus 19 and Revelation 1! To gather His people and to take them on a journey! (cont)
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
Sorry but I'm not relying on Paul's last trump statement, so stop the pre-conceived ideas and answer my question please.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav You don't agree because you choose not to look into it and further study the matter!
Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Rather you are stuck in your ways and disagree with truth because of your preconceived lie!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
You are a joke! Boy I used to believe in the pre-trib until I was proved to be false by the Scripture. So you are the one in folly, going around talk what you don't know, quoting verses out of context as Joel 2. PLEASE! I asked you to answer a simple question and you want to run. That is the sign of someone not looking for truth but rather hid behind what they have been taught by those ignorant of truth.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav You have been running! trying not to answer my question and beating around the bush on others! I answer your question and you don't like the answer. That is not my fault you just need more study because you don't have the answer and don't want it! Like I said you don't love the truth because the truth is not in you! You only want your ears tickled!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
Numbers 10:2 speaks of two trumpets made of silver! Silver is a picture of redemption and it also explains what these trumpets are used for! The first trump was blown for the nation of Israel to take them on a journey to the promised land and the last trump will be blown for the church and there journey will be heaven to be with the Bride Groom Yeshua in His Wedding Canopy!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
Leave the trumpet scenario alone and please answer my question. If the pre-trib was false, what would you need to see in Scripture to disprove it?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav You have yet to prove anything and I have answered all of your questions what you want is for me to tickle your ears and whisper sweet nothings into your ear! Stop avoiding the issue and really study and prove to me your so called truth!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@nilhav Ha! Thats funny you want me to leave the last trump scenario alone and that is what the rapture is about! Only goes to show that you are afraid of the truth and you truly don't want an answer to your question! Rather you want your ears tickled!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
You are the one saying my view is based on the last trumpet said by Paul. I said that it is not, so why are you arguing about something I'm not? That shows who want to run. If I wanted my ears tickled then I would love a pre-trib rapture to take us away, but that's not what the scriptures say. Sorry! Lets see what Paul says next.
nilhav 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our lord Yeshua the Christ and our being gathered to him
What is his subject? The coming & the gathering? THE RAPTURE!
2:1 we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the Day of the LORD is IMMINENT.
Wow! You all say it is, yet the Greek word used says it is not imminent. That means it can come any moment.
nilhav 11 months ago
@Iceman4
Because the rapture can't happen at any moment, something must happen before it can happen or else it would be imminent. What does Paul says must happen?
2 Thess 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day will not come until the apostasy occurs and the MAN OF ANTI-LAW IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction.
OH! So the pre-trib is rebuked! The rapture can't happen until the man of anti-Law is revealed before it. OH how blind are you all! It's right in your face!
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Thats funny its say the apostasy is first then the man is revealed! Go look up the greek word for apostasy and you might learn something you so called genius!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
Ignoramus, apostasy mean the forsaking, to turn away. It's funny how Paul says the day of the rapture will not happen until these two things happen first. Yet you are probably thinking apostasy means snatching away, yet Paul specifically says that Day of our gathering to him will not occur until these two event happen first. It's sad that you are calling me a fool over this issue. Just let it be known you began the insults first.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Show me the greek definiton by a concordance and where else in the bible the same word is applied! Apostasy has been happening for 2 thousand years!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
Acts 21:21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the nations to turn away (apostasia) from Moses,
nilhav 11 months ago
"Apostasia" is only used one other time in the New Testament, in Acts 21:21 to describe "forsaking", or "going away from" the teachings of Moses. "Apostasion", the noun form, appears in Matt 5:31, & 19:7, and Mark 10:4 where it describes a "writing of divorcement", or "papers that separate". (Again, so someone can go away). "Apostasia" literally then means "to depart, or go away from", and to "go away from what" must be determined from the context.
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
#646 apostasia-defection from truth (prop. the state) ["apostasy"]:- translated as; forsake, falling away.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand".
Literally, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from", or "depart", or "change state or standing from one state to another".
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
"Apostasia" was used in extra Biblical Greek literature to describe political revolt, or a "going away from the establishment" and in the Septuagint, or Greek Old Testament, when the Jews would "go away" from God to worship other gods.
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@nilhav Had the Apostle Paul already taught the Thessalonians about an "EVENT" that could be described as a "departure", or "going away"? Absolutely, yes. Paul had already taught the Thessalonian Church about the EVENT, of the Catching Away and "Departure" of the Church in 1 Thess 4:13-18. In 2 Thess 2:5, Paul says don’t you remember? When I was with you I taught you about these things?
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
In the above verses, Paul tells them "that cannot happen", TWO things must occur before the "day of the Lord", or 7 year Tribulation, arrives, #1 "THE departure" first, and #2 "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".
So, I believe Paul proves to the Church at Thessalonica that they are not in the "Tribulation", as someone had written them, because the Seven Year Tribulation cannot begin until the "Rapture" of the Church occurs and the "man of sin", the "Antichrist" is revealed.
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
If Paul had been referring to a "general falling away from the truth", it would have "proved" nothing to the Church at Thessalonica, because there was "apostasy" at the time, and there have been, and will continue to be great periods of falling away from the truth throughout the Church Age.
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
Matt 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
So because this was happening from the beginning of time does it means we are at this phase of the signs? Please! You are twisting things for your benefit. Apostasy doesn't mean rapture, the Bible never says rapture but gathering, so how is forsaking & gathering the same thing? You are in denial!
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav I thought we were talking about Paul and the Thessalonians? Why change the subject to Matt 24:10? Didn't Paul tell the Thessalonians about the departure in 1 Thessalonians and reminded them again in 2 Thessalonians about the departure he spoke of from 1 Thessalonians! Where in 1 Thessalonians did Paul speak of the apostasy? He didn't, he spoke of the rapture of the church! Jesus spoke of the rapture of the church in Luke 21:36 and in Rev 3:10 but you choose to ignore these verses!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
The subject of Matt 24:10 is apostasy, yet you are saying that it is not a sign, yet Yeshua says it is. So how is it that Paul is not talking about apostasy? He said that day (coming of the lord & our gathering to him) will not come unless two things happen. There is no getting around this. Be honest, stop using wishy washy verses to create an even that is never described in Scripture. NEVER! Where is it DESCRIBED?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Like I said show me in 1 Thessalonians where did Paul talked about apostasy? There has been apostasy for 2 thousand years! He had to remind them of the rapture he spoke of! What is about Luke 21 that you don't like? Why do you avoid Luke 21?
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
He didn't define anything in 1 Thess, all he said was to be encourage that the lord will come. Sorry in 2 Thess he reminds them of the force restraining the beast from coming. What about Luke 21? Pray that you are worthy to make it in doesn't prove anything.
nilhav 11 months ago
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@nilhav Again we can debate this till we are blue in the face and come full circle. I still wouldn't agree with you or believe your interpretation of the scriptures because it doesn't agree with the rest of the scriptures!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
Sorry but he says the day of the LORD is the coming of Yeshua & our gathering to him. Sorry but you are twisting Scripture, there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation. He was not say before the tribulation could occur, he said before day of the Lord, which is the coming of the lord & our gathering to him. So but you are completely turning the verses upside down. He says don't believe that day is imminent. What day? The coming of the lord & our gathering to him.
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav 7 years is before the day of the Lord! If it wasn't imminent then why are we commanded to watch and pray? You are the one twisting the scriptures and have not proven no such thing as pre trib! You have yet to make a valid point! That is why you and I do not agree and no matter how many word gymnastic you throw around I will not agree with you because you are wrong! If we agree that Jesus is God died on the cross rose again acceded and is coming back then let leave it at that!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
You have to watch for signs. Why does Yehsua give you signs to look for if it is imminent? If it can happen any minute then why does he give his disciples a list of things that will happen? Yet you all say that you will not be here to see any of it. So you are making the whole Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 a lie for you will not be able to watch for those signs. What is the book of Revelation for?
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav Obivously you don't even read revelation! You don't understand that the first 5 chapters is about the church! I understand the signs I get it! What you don't like is the rapture which is described many times in scripture old and new testament! The problem is you want to come out on top of the argument every time so fine you win I lose even though I still don't believe your way of interpretation and I believe you are still wrong!
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago
@Iceman4Christ
Pre-tribbers are running around thinking because they don't see the word church after chap 3 that it means the church is gone from the rest of Rev. The word ikklesia simply means assembly, the assembly of Yeshua, not Church. So there is no significance in this word, for it doesn't say the word church in the kingdom age in Rev either. So are you not there? Please! this is ridiculous interpretations, & relying on John being brought up in the vision as the rapture. How ridiculous!
nilhav 11 months ago
@nilhav This is how ridiculus you are! You think you are so cool it fills you with pride! Why is it that in revelation ch 2 and 3 the Spirit repeats and says "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" and in Revelation ch13:9 the Spirit says "If any man have an ear, let him hear." Did the Spirit forget that the church is still here during the Tribulation or did the Spirit purposely leave that part out because the church is no longer on earth?
Iceman4Christ 11 months ago