Apparently, "choose today who you will serve" demonstrates a free will to choose God! Urrr, might want to read that one again. Joshua is asking the people which of the false gods they are going to serve given that they had turned their back on the true god
@junglehappiness listen again...I was refering to that passage relating to man having a free will in general. Many Calvinists believe that every detail of man's actions are directed with no free will whatsoever. If you want my paper on this topic e mail me and I will send it to you. Besides my freind, Calvinists do not believe a true believer can "turn their back on the true God"
@musicprodave thanks for reply. A Calvinist wouldnt argue that man has free will to choose from among idols. The Calvinistic understanding is that the will is only free to act within its nature. I cannot freely will myself to fly because my nature differs from that of a bird. Likewise my spiritual nature is sinful and so cannot choose spiritual life. But a sinful nature is still able to choose false gods, as in Joshua.
@junglehappiness Rom 5:18 "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
Judgment upon ALL MEN Free gift upon ALL MEN..You cant say sin causes judgement on all men and then say that the free gift of justification is only limited to some!!!!! The text can't be broken up to fit into your theological system!
@musicprodave just to clarify, I wasn't using the phrase 'turn their backs' in the sense of a believer losing salvation, nor in rejecting God's election. I simply meant they committed idolatry
@junglehappiness well, with respect, if you trust idolatry instead of God then you have turned from God and are placing your trust in false gods. Therefore you are not a believer is the true God. There are different levels of Calvinists. Some are so hyper that they believe stubbing their toe was ordained by God. The are so many passages that fly in the face of limited atonement that I find it absurd. As I said, I Consider Calvinists who are born again to be my brothers in Christ
@musicprodave again thanks for reply. I disagree that one who commits idolatry cant be a true believer. Surely all sin involves idolatry + no believer claims to be sinless. I agree that there are different levels of Calvinists but if a persons views are extreme as to deny Calvinism, they are no longer Calvinist despite calling themselves one
Perhaps you could post a verse that flies in the face of limited atonement for discussion
A gracious dialogue may prove beneficial. Iron sharpens iron
@junglehappiness 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world..
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Yea forget the facts that God cannot be un satisfied with Christ . Don't be be super theological?. I'm not a Calvinist never was. If I gave you impossibility of your thesis it would do no good because you clasify people into categories.God is perpetual Virtue He cannot suspend his Nature. He is Spirit Virtue in self existing life and free will suspends this Nature. Autonomous free will has attributes and virtues suspending God's attributes in order to exist. But that is super theological.
@polopowers1 There is no proclaimation of God being unsatisfied as you put it in believeing in God given choice, Your thesis completely throws out numerous passages of scripture. All you do is use theological terms to defent your position. I use the Bible.
@polopowers1 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world..
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
@polopowers1 3) Matthew 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels”
Hell was not even created for the purpose of sending people to it originally. So how can we conclude that God willed certain people to go there from eternity past?
@polopowers1 Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one, judgment to condemnation came upon all men, even so by the righteousness of One, the free gift unto justification of life came upon all men.
Judgment upon ALL MEN Free gift upon ALL MEN..You cant say sin causes judgement on all men and then say that the free gift of justification is only limited to some!!!!! The text can't be broken up to fit into your theological system!
So Christ satisfied God in atonement for all but He was not complete satisfaction.? Because man made atonement subjective contingent.God is satisfied with Christ not my profeession of faith in Him. Christ satisfied God not man for atonement, You make satisfaction dependent not free bound by another, this is impossible.
@polopowers1 Man was given salvation by the work of Christ on the cross. "Limited atonement" limits God's salvation. God's in his sovereign will gave choice. The bible repeatedly says that Christ died the whole world. Yours is the sugestion that God failed in that not all will come to repentance. You want to believe as Calvin did that God purposly created some for Heaven and some for Hell, that is your choice but it is not correct no matter how you attempt to be super theological.
Jesus died to satisfy God man is the benefactor. Man cannot satisfy God but Christ can and did. Christ cannot ever be un satisfactory to God. Which is what this man is saying. Christ satisfied God atoning but man took away it's power by refusing its grace. Hence, making the atonement satisfactory un satisfactory by refusing grace.This is impossible for whom Christ satisfied God for must be saved and if He satisfied God for all atoning nothing of man can undermine its effect by unbelief.
@polopowers1 Christ died for the sins of the whole world, Not everyone will die a believer therefore not all will go to heaven because they have rejected the provition for salvation. "For God so loved the world that he gave them his only begotton son that whosoever believes"
To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
This is sad. Your exegesis is a non-exegesis I fear. Picking a verse here and there with no attempt to explain the contexts of the verse or even to line up the totality of scripture is very misleading. James White does this excellently. He would never take one verse and create a theology around it. He actually takes the time to exegete entire chapters/books. The Atonement is clearly limited to those who are predestinated unto salvation. Romans 8:29-30 (golden chain of salvation). Explain that.
@1aliveinchrist This is not an exegesis. there is not enough time here for that. I do have a paper on this if you would like it let me know. I never build my Theology around a single Scripture
@musicprodave I think we have had this talk before lol. Here's the thing - everything in scripture MUST align. The free willed view (free as in totally automous from God) does not hold up scripturally. Look at Elijah and the ravens, for example. Do you remember the woman too? God "commanded" her to feed him. So, she does feed him, but we see that she didn't "know" about the "command." Look at Joseph and his brothers. "You intended this for evil, but God PURPOSED it for good."
@1aliveinchrist You keep accusing me of not looking at the whole Bible...Why do you keep doing that. I told you I have studied the whole Bible. As I have stated a million times. I have a paper on it, and I explain it in my published commentary on Romans. If you disagree that is you right.
@musicprodave Accusing you of not "looking" at the entire Bible is not accurate. I am saying that the "free will" POV does not take into account ALL of scripture. IOW, it doesn't mesh with all of scripture, and my point is that God won't contradict Himself in His word. So, when Paul tells us in Ephesians, for example, that God has "predestinated usunto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself..." that this doesn't mean God predestinated the possibility, but the actual saving....
@musicprodave (Continued) Another example is Romans 8:29-30 ie the "Golden Chain of Salvation" in which a direct link is made between those who are "foreknown" - ONLY they are the ones who are then predestinated and then called and then justified and finally glorified. As this doesn't happen to everyone, the will isn't free to choose that which God hasn't chosen in Himself first. This makes perfect sense (though it is a "hard" teaching - who can hear it?) but where then is "free will"?
Oh, Doctor have you ever read Calvin's institutes? You couldn't possibly be paraphrasing Calvin, because that's not what Calvin believed. I suggest you read the first 6 chapters of the second book of Calvin's institutes. After all, you are a doctor! Doctors shun ignorance and embrace knowledge. Or... are you afraid? Do you first judge a man without hearing what he has to say? Read Calvin. You might be surprised by how much you have in common with him.
@captaincrick No I am not afraid sir. " Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is fore-ordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestinated either to life or to death." -John Calivin
Calvin was an uninspired man. You're quoting him to prove your point, and I guess that's OK. I've never read the Institutes, and I'm not a Calvinist.
So, why all the wrangling about the words and works of a fallible man? If your argument is that your you're trying to refute a popularly held belief system, why go to all the trouble? If Calvinists hold to what a fallible man teaches (namely, John Calvin), then they're already in eternal peril, as are Arminians.
I'm not denying that the quote you're using is indeed from the Institutes (an 1800 page, two-volume work--i had to look it up), but taking 3 sentences out of an 1800 page work is an extremely weak argument, at best. Granted, there is a 500 character comment limit on Youtube.
I suggest closing the dusty works of Calvin, and closing the dusty works of Arminius, and declare something of eternal significance, like, say, the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ (?).
@skoobalon oK ....I TOOK A STATEMENT IN CONTEXT. I am not debating the entire institutes. I am pointing out that limited atonement is a lie...obviosly I believe the Gospel, thats why I am arguing against the much held Calvinist view...yikes man
@skoobalon Why are you asking me what "I mean by limited atonement"?...I dont beliecve in limited atonement, Calin and his followers do. Calivists believe that God willsthat people go to hell and some go to heaven because he did not provide atonement for all people
@musicprodave Thank you for the definition. I'm a fairly new believer, so I need a clarification of terms. I think that sometimes one person's definition may be different from another person's definition. I agree with you. I don't believe that God wills that people go to Hell. That would be a horrible thing, and that would be a horrible thing for God to do--to force people against their wills to go to Hell. I'm definitely not a Calvinist, if that be the case!
You say, "...I am arguing against the much held Calvinist view...yikes man."
I'm not intending to be vitriolic, i just want to have a sensible dialog on a subject I'm not familiar with, so thanks for your help!
I know that there are many "followers" of John Calvin, as there are many "followers" of Jacobus Arminius. Following a man, and not the Son of Man is a strange thing to do. Wasn't that the problem in Corinth? Anyway...
...I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas (1Co 1:12).
@skoobalon with respect, I never saId I follow Arminius...I follw the bible. In theology we often discuss things based on views put forth by popular theologians. To use the term Calinist and Arminian is simply a way to communicate a well understood position in short form....I am a bible man.
@musicprodave Well said. I mentioned Arminius' name (my bad) as another example (along with Calvin) of a dead person used as a label for a system of theology. In any case, I agree with what you're saying. Have a good week.
David Byrne, you have really butchered the text - "Choose whom you will serve" - the offer wasn't for the true God, but Joshua was giving them a choice between false Gods. "Whosoever" does NOT equal "everyone gets a chance" and "whole world" - denies the fact that the word "world" is used 8 different ways in the KJV. Limited Atonement - that Jesus died for HIS SHEEP, that we are in fact CHOSEN before the foundation of the world (ELECT) Eph. 1 is the only thing that makes sense.
There are many arminians who think that Calvinists are not Christians. The "L" of Limited Atonement is completely true and utterly Biblical. Romans 9 says that God created vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. God "fits" the clay for whatever purpose He has. You are not dealing with Romans 9.
@1aliveinchrist There also many Calvinists who think non Calvinists are not Christians. As I said, I certainly do not hold that at all. If any of you want my paper on this topic just e mail me drdave@clfchurch..com
@musicprodave Ok, but this still doesn't address Romans 9. I do think that you are talking verses out of context - ie -- choose ye this day whom you will serve - and not dealing with some other specfiics of scripture. God Bless.
@1aliveinchrist The point about the verse concerning choosing who you serve goes to the hyper position of some Calvinists that says man has no choice in anything...if you want my paper of this feel to e mail me and I will send it to you. This video is not intended to be an exhaustive explanation
@musicprodave The view that man is the one who chooses and God reacts to man's choices goes against the fact that God is the one with the plan. Our "choices" do not dictate what God does, otherwise, prophecy would be meaningless, for example. As a monergist, I know that we make "choices" that do not go against our "will." However, I know that it is God who moves first, creates the circumstances for our wills to choose a certain way. Our synergism is due to His monergism. God Bless.
@musicprodave It would be an interesting discussion how that view is actually what the Bible shows us about God cover to cover. In your toe example, let me ask you this...do you honestly believe that there are things that can occur that are outside of God's control?
@1aliveinchrist i believe that it is clear that you and I would go back and forth and waste time. You are a hyper Calinist. You believe God is the author of evil. You believe in limited atonement. That,s you right to believe. I consider you a brother in Christ and to argue over this would be futile. If you want my paper of this I will send it to you. I would like to pray blessing on you but according to your position it would be a waste of time since evcerything was pre ordained anyway.
@musicprodave The insults are interesting, and certainly unwarrented. I would like to see your paper. Send it. I assume you meant that God is not the "Author of sin" and not "evil" as God says that he makes it all. Is there anything that you think God isn't in contol of? Your snippy comment at the end should reflect volumes to you about your disdain for those who, supposedly like yourself, seek to know the Lord as Jesus told us in John 17:3 was the means of eternal life. I don't want to argue...
@1aliveinchrist I am very sorry if you took my comments as insults. That was not my intention. I simply stated the result of your position. I am not "peddling" a paper...peddling inplies selling something. It is 3175 words. I can't totally explain my position here. That why the paper.
@musicprodave (Cont 2) as arguing is futile, and yes, I believe God is the one who gives the eyes to see and the ears to hear as the Bible clearly indicates. It seems you are more interested in peddling your paper than in having a dialgoue. Why? Send the paper. I shall read it and then perhaps you will not hide behind a difference of opinion to really get to the meat of the matter. God bless you.
@Gideom007 Have you ever heard of a typo?...If you have an argument against my points, make it. There is nothing gained by personally attacking a person. In my vid, I am very respectful of my Calvanist brethren. I think you could learn something from that. I wish you well
If God allowed people to be born knowing they would not go to Heaven,then why not just cancel their births?God has made 2 groups, one He elected the other He did not.2Peter 3:9 is speaking of believers only(the elect).2 Peter 3:9 would mean an all knowing God is being patient waiting on people to come to Christ,that He knew before time would never come.Why would God be so naive?He's not.
I believe it would be helpful if you'd read a book by a Calvinist about the Doctrines of Grace, rather than basing your position upon faulty exegesis (which is clearly the case) and a misunderstanding of the facts. If you like the details, one of the best books is "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner. If you want a shorter book, perhaps "Chosen By God" by RC Sproul, or "The Sovereignty of God" by AW Pink. Read one of these and get back to me, if you would.
None of Christianity is true buddy. There are contradictions in the bible. That;s one reason there are so many differing viewpoints and denominations! Think about it.
@musicprodave You don't seem to understand me. I'm a non believer in the supernatural. Religion is taken on faith and not evidence. There are many denominations of Christianity who believe that they are the ones with the right interpretations. This is from differing interpretations. There are also many religions who claim to be the true religion. It's all on blind faith and magical thinking and not evidence.
@Ricardius1710 I understand that you are an atheist. I am not and your understanding of Christian teaching is flawed. all Christians agree on the fundamentel teachings of the bible. I wish you well
@musicprodave See, what you are doing is rationalizing and justifying what "true" Christianity deems as within the pale. It's basically like cherry picking scriptures to justify your point, but done for different reasons. I would take a guess and say that "your" brand of Christianity is the correct one though, right? lol! I guess you are the arbiter of what correct, but the other sects say the same as you. Think about it. There is absolutely no evidence for anything you believe.
@Ricardius1710 listen man...its all good. you don't have to get all upset. Yes I have read many books critical of my religion. You should read "evidence that demands a verdict" ,,,its a good book and perhaps you should read it because it is the opposit of your atheistic belief...be well
@musicprodave I have read the book you referred to, as a matter of fact, I've read dozens of books written by Christian writers, see, I used to be a Christian who studied Theology, Apologetics, and Philosophy. I almost became a minister at one point in my life. So, I know a thing or two about Christianity. The book by Josh McDowell isn't the best one around, I'll tell you that. It attempts at giving people that are already Christians, reasons to believe. There aren't any, it's all on blind fait
@Ricardius1710 Well I am very sorry to hear that. I will pray for you that your eyes of understanding are open in the spiritual realm. I know you say you don't believe, and that is your choice but I do wish you well and hope the best for you. There are many reasons to believe but since your heart is set against the Christian faith, there is no need or point in argueing with you. Be well.
@musicprodave Hey buddy, I appreciate the kind words. I hope the same for you, and I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing with you personally, but I can get pretty passionate about my stance. Anyway, have a good one.
Never, begin scripture until you first understand the Nature of God. God is Spirit substance. God is love, mercy, truth, etc. Which is first God's Spirit substance or His afore mentioned Virtues? They are simultaneous,of course.God's self existing Life is His Virtue and Spirit.Free will must suspend God's virtues in order to exist, impossible.Free will is independent knowledge or power to choose God cannot not allow this and be perpetual self existing Life.It would be like God holding His breath
@polopowers1 With respect, That is lovely sounding words but makes no sense at all. If you believe that God forced people to sin and then punished them for it, you do not understand the gospel at all. God did not make people for the expressed purpose to send them to Hell...that belief is just nuts.
@musicprodave You make three directory statements nuts, lovely sounding, you say force and I don't understand. That sounds more like a child stomping his feet rather than answering intelligently, it is emotional with no substance.I never said God forces because means there is struggle God does not force.Sense ?my statement has depth of meaning well thought out.I don't believe God sent people for the express purpose of hell.Calling people names are strictly games for the self very righteous.
@polopowers1 I said the belief that "God made people for the expressed purpose to send them to Hell" is nuts. I did not say you are nuts. If a person believes in limited atonement double predestination then that is what they believe. If you believe that, then you believe a nutty doctrine. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. and he died "for the sins of the whole world".
@herald1509 it is a matter of grace and mercy offered. He offered to all, but not all accept. example: of what benifit is a food ministry's offer to thed homeless to those who refuse the help? The food is offered but a person may by pride choose to reject it,,the same reason that Jesus sent the 70 to preach and told them that some will recieve and some will not. He could have only sent them to the places where people would recieve.
@music But of what benefit is it to them to be offered something they won't accept? There may still be a reason to offer it (maybe to prove how proud they are), but I don't see how it could be to benefit them.
@herald1509 not about what benefits them. Is about God's declaration of grace to all because he is just. This is why Romans 1 teaches creation speaks of God so there is no excuse. God is just , he handles all justly declaring himself to all through the Word and also through creation's evidence of His power. In this no person can say they had excuse to reject God. It is the same reason we give a trial to someone who is beyond a shadow of a doubt guilty...for the sake of applied justice principle
@herald1509 Jesus died for all however his foreknowledge was clear on who would get saved. It was not God's will to purposely make some for the expressed purpose of sending them to Hell as Calvin taught. That is contrary to the bible's declaration or Christ's death for the "whole world" "Whosoever" come unto me all that are heavy laden and I will give you rest"
@musicprodave Jesus knew not everyone was going to believe and be saved by his death. So can we agree that Jesus didn't die to save people whom he knew weren't going to be saved?
@herald1509 somethings are not a yes or no answer. I already expressed my position clearly to you. Jesus made provition to save the whole world he dies for the sins of the whole world. He also gace a choice and in his forknowlege he cleary knew who woiuld and would not recieve him. The idea that God from eterity past as an explicit act of his will creatred people to go to Hell is simply wrong and an insult to Christ's atoning work. God did not creat adam and eve and then make them sin.
@music You created a video that says that Limited Atonement is not true. How can you claim that, and not claim that Jesus died to save everyone? Jesus' death was sufficient to save all, and is offered to all, but only saves believers, and was only intended to save believers. Jesus is the saviour of the world in that he saves it from annihilation by keeping a remnant. He is the only Way to the Father, hence he is the only atoning sacrifice for the world. Through Christ alone are people saved.
Yeah!! Very well put. And I agree completely! People who have disagreed, did not LISTEN to you....and did not reach out for their bible to prove anything to themselves. The unfortunate thing here is that there are people out there that just insist on stupid thinking and say/believe anything to save face. Well, they think they are saving face, but there thoughts simply are illogical and irrational. By the way thanks for the comment on Michelle Bachmans bashing.Michelle Bachmann's Crazy Comment?
Yeah!! Very well put. And I agree completely! People who have disagreed, did not LISTEN to you....and did not reach out for their bible to prove anything to themselves. The unfortunate thing here is that there are people out there that just insist on stupid thinking and say/believe anything to save face. Well, they think they are saving face, but there thoughts simply are illogical and irrational. By the way thanks for the comment on Michelle Bachmans bashing.Michelle Bachmann's Crazy Comment?
This is the reason that God only called SOME to be pastors and teachers, because the MAJORITY of those who profess to be so, can't put a single verse in CONTEXT. Your preconceived ideas concerning the nature of God manipulate your understanding of God's word. The passage in 2 Peter 3, if you want to be HONEST, was addressed to BELIEVERS, not unbelievers. "Patient towards YOU".. This is merely ONE example why all are not called to be teachers and pastors.
@ShownMercy it is irrelevant that he is speaking to believers or not. He still made the same statement "not willing that any should perish" Also the bible tells us that Hell was not made for man and therfore God did not make man by an act of His will to send some men to Hell when Hell was not even made for man.
Your difinitive statement that I am not called by God to be a preacher is a tell tail sign of your lack of ability to have a civil discussion. perhaps you should exibit some grace ?
@musicprodave.. You believe in a limited atonement as well as I do. Did Jesus die for those already in Hell at the time of the cross? Of course He didn't. I don't believe you would ever make such a statement. So you also believe in limited atonement. In you proclaiming that Christ died for men that will be in hell for their sin, is to trample on Christ's blood as an unholy thing, unable to atone for the sin of those men. cont....
@md... In proclaiming that the atonement of Christ was made for every man is also to say that Christ infallibly saved not a single man, but only made all men savable, and that is contrary to Scripture.. I highly doubt that YOU will deny that God has complete knowledge of EVERY man that will inhabit His Heavenly Kingdom in the age to come. And yet you insist that Christ shed His blood in vain for those whom God knew would be eternally damned! Thats pride speaking sir.
@ShownMercy Thats some very twisted logic. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. To say "Did Jesus die for those already in Hell at the time of the cross? Of course He didn't" is to totally mis understanding of Salvation concerning the Old Testament believers. What you are saying is that God created Adam and Eve, forced them to sin and then judged them for what he forced them to do....thats a strange way to look at God who wants all men saved (2 Tim 2:4)
@musicprodave..First of all.. NT, OT, ANY testament, NO ONE has EVER been saved outside the atoning work of Christ. NO ONE comes, or ever has come, to the Father except through Jesus. Second, If you can't get a single verse right, you really don't have any business teaching anyone. 1Tim2:4 has NOTHING to do with God wanting EVERY man to be saved. There is a reason that Paul states "I AM TELLING THE TRUTH, I AM NOT LYING AS A TEACHER OF THE GENTILES IN FAITH AND TRUTH"
@ShownMercy Obviosly all are saved through Christ. Old and New Testament. Your attitude in this discussion is just demonic. I think you would have gona along with Calvin when he concented to the death of a man that did not agree with him. You are not the type of person that anyone can have a discussion with. Good bye
@musicprodave..Demonic? LOL! Seriously. That is a very immature comment. I take it your a Charismatic, most likely Pentecostal. Thats the type of comment that comes from those who try to "spiritually" analyze everything. IF you knew your bible you would know that someone who is born again of the Spirit of God CANNOT be demon possessed. But I bet you "cast" demons out of Christians all the time don't you! LOL! Sir, you have no interest in what the TRUTH actually is.
@ShownMercy Well again you judge with no facts. I am not Charismatic or Pentecostal. In this conversation is that you are obnoxious and unwilling to answer with any substance. If Limited Atonement is true, why Hebrews 2:9 state “that Christ should taste death for everyman?
2) Explain 2 Pet 2:1 which says “denying the Lord that bought them.” If Christ had only died for the church as you claim Acts 20:28 teaches then why would 2 Pet 2:1 state that Christ also died for the false teachers?
@musicprodave.. Let me just say one last thing.. Without knowing WHAT Christ actually accomplished in His death, there is no way to know WHOM He did it for.. You get the WHAT right, you will get the WHO right too. Heb 9:12 states that in His death He "obtained eternal redemption for us".. Did Jesus "eternally redeem" every man? Can an ETERNALLY redeemed man EVER be unredeemed? If he can, he was never ETERNALLY redeemed in the first place.
@musicprodave...cont... These passages are crystal clear when PRECONCEIVED IDEAS concerning the nature of God are set aside. Your attempt to make these passages say something they don't because you don't think ITS FAIR for God not to give every man a chance at salvation is SELF WORSHIP at its finest. You care more about the will of man than you do the will of God. You have fashioned a god in your own image whom you call "fair", and thats called Idolatry.
Apparently, "choose today who you will serve" demonstrates a free will to choose God! Urrr, might want to read that one again. Joshua is asking the people which of the false gods they are going to serve given that they had turned their back on the true god
junglehappiness 6 months ago
@junglehappiness listen again...I was refering to that passage relating to man having a free will in general. Many Calvinists believe that every detail of man's actions are directed with no free will whatsoever. If you want my paper on this topic e mail me and I will send it to you. Besides my freind, Calvinists do not believe a true believer can "turn their back on the true God"
musicprodave 6 months ago
@musicprodave thanks for reply. A Calvinist wouldnt argue that man has free will to choose from among idols. The Calvinistic understanding is that the will is only free to act within its nature. I cannot freely will myself to fly because my nature differs from that of a bird. Likewise my spiritual nature is sinful and so cannot choose spiritual life. But a sinful nature is still able to choose false gods, as in Joshua.
junglehappiness 6 months ago
@junglehappiness Rom 5:18 "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
Judgment upon ALL MEN Free gift upon ALL MEN..You cant say sin causes judgement on all men and then say that the free gift of justification is only limited to some!!!!! The text can't be broken up to fit into your theological system!
musicprodave 6 months ago
@musicprodave just to clarify, I wasn't using the phrase 'turn their backs' in the sense of a believer losing salvation, nor in rejecting God's election. I simply meant they committed idolatry
junglehappiness 6 months ago
@junglehappiness well, with respect, if you trust idolatry instead of God then you have turned from God and are placing your trust in false gods. Therefore you are not a believer is the true God. There are different levels of Calvinists. Some are so hyper that they believe stubbing their toe was ordained by God. The are so many passages that fly in the face of limited atonement that I find it absurd. As I said, I Consider Calvinists who are born again to be my brothers in Christ
musicprodave 6 months ago
@musicprodave again thanks for reply. I disagree that one who commits idolatry cant be a true believer. Surely all sin involves idolatry + no believer claims to be sinless. I agree that there are different levels of Calvinists but if a persons views are extreme as to deny Calvinism, they are no longer Calvinist despite calling themselves one
Perhaps you could post a verse that flies in the face of limited atonement for discussion
A gracious dialogue may prove beneficial. Iron sharpens iron
junglehappiness 6 months ago
@junglehappiness 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world..
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
musicprodave 6 months ago
Step one, Learn to spell Calvinism.
teel6060 6 months ago
Yea forget the facts that God cannot be un satisfied with Christ . Don't be be super theological?. I'm not a Calvinist never was. If I gave you impossibility of your thesis it would do no good because you clasify people into categories.God is perpetual Virtue He cannot suspend his Nature. He is Spirit Virtue in self existing life and free will suspends this Nature. Autonomous free will has attributes and virtues suspending God's attributes in order to exist. But that is super theological.
polopowers1 6 months ago
@polopowers1 There is no proclaimation of God being unsatisfied as you put it in believeing in God given choice, Your thesis completely throws out numerous passages of scripture. All you do is use theological terms to defent your position. I use the Bible.
musicprodave 6 months ago
@polopowers1 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world..
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
musicprodave 6 months ago
@polopowers1 3) Matthew 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels”
Hell was not even created for the purpose of sending people to it originally. So how can we conclude that God willed certain people to go there from eternity past?
musicprodave 6 months ago
@polopowers1 Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one, judgment to condemnation came upon all men, even so by the righteousness of One, the free gift unto justification of life came upon all men.
Judgment upon ALL MEN Free gift upon ALL MEN..You cant say sin causes judgement on all men and then say that the free gift of justification is only limited to some!!!!! The text can't be broken up to fit into your theological system!
musicprodave 6 months ago
So Christ satisfied God in atonement for all but He was not complete satisfaction.? Because man made atonement subjective contingent.God is satisfied with Christ not my profeession of faith in Him. Christ satisfied God not man for atonement, You make satisfaction dependent not free bound by another, this is impossible.
polopowers1 6 months ago
@polopowers1 Man was given salvation by the work of Christ on the cross. "Limited atonement" limits God's salvation. God's in his sovereign will gave choice. The bible repeatedly says that Christ died the whole world. Yours is the sugestion that God failed in that not all will come to repentance. You want to believe as Calvin did that God purposly created some for Heaven and some for Hell, that is your choice but it is not correct no matter how you attempt to be super theological.
musicprodave 6 months ago
Jesus died to satisfy God man is the benefactor. Man cannot satisfy God but Christ can and did. Christ cannot ever be un satisfactory to God. Which is what this man is saying. Christ satisfied God atoning but man took away it's power by refusing its grace. Hence, making the atonement satisfactory un satisfactory by refusing grace.This is impossible for whom Christ satisfied God for must be saved and if He satisfied God for all atoning nothing of man can undermine its effect by unbelief.
polopowers1 6 months ago
@polopowers1 Christ died for the sins of the whole world, Not everyone will die a believer therefore not all will go to heaven because they have rejected the provition for salvation. "For God so loved the world that he gave them his only begotton son that whosoever believes"
musicprodave 6 months ago
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To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
motibi 6 months ago
I agree with you Doctor. Limited Atonement has real problems. thanks for the video.
somewizeguy 7 months ago
This is sad. Your exegesis is a non-exegesis I fear. Picking a verse here and there with no attempt to explain the contexts of the verse or even to line up the totality of scripture is very misleading. James White does this excellently. He would never take one verse and create a theology around it. He actually takes the time to exegete entire chapters/books. The Atonement is clearly limited to those who are predestinated unto salvation. Romans 8:29-30 (golden chain of salvation). Explain that.
1aliveinchrist 8 months ago
@1aliveinchrist This is not an exegesis. there is not enough time here for that. I do have a paper on this if you would like it let me know. I never build my Theology around a single Scripture
musicprodave 8 months ago
@musicprodave I think we have had this talk before lol. Here's the thing - everything in scripture MUST align. The free willed view (free as in totally automous from God) does not hold up scripturally. Look at Elijah and the ravens, for example. Do you remember the woman too? God "commanded" her to feed him. So, she does feed him, but we see that she didn't "know" about the "command." Look at Joseph and his brothers. "You intended this for evil, but God PURPOSED it for good."
1aliveinchrist 8 months ago
@1aliveinchrist You keep accusing me of not looking at the whole Bible...Why do you keep doing that. I told you I have studied the whole Bible. As I have stated a million times. I have a paper on it, and I explain it in my published commentary on Romans. If you disagree that is you right.
musicprodave 8 months ago
@musicprodave Accusing you of not "looking" at the entire Bible is not accurate. I am saying that the "free will" POV does not take into account ALL of scripture. IOW, it doesn't mesh with all of scripture, and my point is that God won't contradict Himself in His word. So, when Paul tells us in Ephesians, for example, that God has "predestinated usunto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself..." that this doesn't mean God predestinated the possibility, but the actual saving....
1aliveinchrist 8 months ago
@musicprodave (Continued) Another example is Romans 8:29-30 ie the "Golden Chain of Salvation" in which a direct link is made between those who are "foreknown" - ONLY they are the ones who are then predestinated and then called and then justified and finally glorified. As this doesn't happen to everyone, the will isn't free to choose that which God hasn't chosen in Himself first. This makes perfect sense (though it is a "hard" teaching - who can hear it?) but where then is "free will"?
1aliveinchrist 8 months ago
Oh, Doctor have you ever read Calvin's institutes? You couldn't possibly be paraphrasing Calvin, because that's not what Calvin believed. I suggest you read the first 6 chapters of the second book of Calvin's institutes. After all, you are a doctor! Doctors shun ignorance and embrace knowledge. Or... are you afraid? Do you first judge a man without hearing what he has to say? Read Calvin. You might be surprised by how much you have in common with him.
captaincrick 9 months ago
@captaincrick No I am not afraid sir. " Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is fore-ordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestinated either to life or to death." -John Calivin
I think his own words are clear
musicprodave 9 months ago
@musicprodave
Calvin was an uninspired man. You're quoting him to prove your point, and I guess that's OK. I've never read the Institutes, and I'm not a Calvinist.
So, why all the wrangling about the words and works of a fallible man? If your argument is that your you're trying to refute a popularly held belief system, why go to all the trouble? If Calvinists hold to what a fallible man teaches (namely, John Calvin), then they're already in eternal peril, as are Arminians.
Christ alone.
skoobalon 8 months ago
@musicprodave
I'm not denying that the quote you're using is indeed from the Institutes (an 1800 page, two-volume work--i had to look it up), but taking 3 sentences out of an 1800 page work is an extremely weak argument, at best. Granted, there is a 500 character comment limit on Youtube.
I suggest closing the dusty works of Calvin, and closing the dusty works of Arminius, and declare something of eternal significance, like, say, the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ (?).
skoobalon 8 months ago
@skoobalon oK ....I TOOK A STATEMENT IN CONTEXT. I am not debating the entire institutes. I am pointing out that limited atonement is a lie...obviosly I believe the Gospel, thats why I am arguing against the much held Calvinist view...yikes man
musicprodave 8 months ago
@musicprodave
Thanks for the reply.
How would you define the Gospel?
skoobalon 8 months ago
@musicprodave
Not to be a pain, but what do you mean by Limited Atonement?
Thanks.
skoobalon 8 months ago
@skoobalon Why are you asking me what "I mean by limited atonement"?...I dont beliecve in limited atonement, Calin and his followers do. Calivists believe that God willsthat people go to hell and some go to heaven because he did not provide atonement for all people
musicprodave 8 months ago
@musicprodave Thank you for the definition. I'm a fairly new believer, so I need a clarification of terms. I think that sometimes one person's definition may be different from another person's definition. I agree with you. I don't believe that God wills that people go to Hell. That would be a horrible thing, and that would be a horrible thing for God to do--to force people against their wills to go to Hell. I'm definitely not a Calvinist, if that be the case!
skoobalon 8 months ago
You say, "...I am arguing against the much held Calvinist view...yikes man."
I'm not intending to be vitriolic, i just want to have a sensible dialog on a subject I'm not familiar with, so thanks for your help!
I know that there are many "followers" of John Calvin, as there are many "followers" of Jacobus Arminius. Following a man, and not the Son of Man is a strange thing to do. Wasn't that the problem in Corinth? Anyway...
...I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas (1Co 1:12).
skoobalon 8 months ago
@skoobalon with respect, I never saId I follow Arminius...I follw the bible. In theology we often discuss things based on views put forth by popular theologians. To use the term Calinist and Arminian is simply a way to communicate a well understood position in short form....I am a bible man.
musicprodave 8 months ago
@musicprodave Well said. I mentioned Arminius' name (my bad) as another example (along with Calvin) of a dead person used as a label for a system of theology. In any case, I agree with what you're saying. Have a good week.
BTW, do you have a ThD or a PhD?
skoobalon 8 months ago
@skoobalon Th.D
musicprodave 8 months ago
Hey, just wondering what part of Calvin's institutes you are paraphrasing?
captaincrick 9 months ago
David Byrne, you have really butchered the text - "Choose whom you will serve" - the offer wasn't for the true God, but Joshua was giving them a choice between false Gods. "Whosoever" does NOT equal "everyone gets a chance" and "whole world" - denies the fact that the word "world" is used 8 different ways in the KJV. Limited Atonement - that Jesus died for HIS SHEEP, that we are in fact CHOSEN before the foundation of the world (ELECT) Eph. 1 is the only thing that makes sense.
1aliveinchrist 10 months ago
There are many arminians who think that Calvinists are not Christians. The "L" of Limited Atonement is completely true and utterly Biblical. Romans 9 says that God created vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. God "fits" the clay for whatever purpose He has. You are not dealing with Romans 9.
1aliveinchrist 10 months ago
@1aliveinchrist There also many Calvinists who think non Calvinists are not Christians. As I said, I certainly do not hold that at all. If any of you want my paper on this topic just e mail me drdave@clfchurch..com
musicprodave 10 months ago
@musicprodave Ok, but this still doesn't address Romans 9. I do think that you are talking verses out of context - ie -- choose ye this day whom you will serve - and not dealing with some other specfiics of scripture. God Bless.
1aliveinchrist 10 months ago
@1aliveinchrist The point about the verse concerning choosing who you serve goes to the hyper position of some Calvinists that says man has no choice in anything...if you want my paper of this feel to e mail me and I will send it to you. This video is not intended to be an exhaustive explanation
musicprodave 10 months ago
@musicprodave The view that man is the one who chooses and God reacts to man's choices goes against the fact that God is the one with the plan. Our "choices" do not dictate what God does, otherwise, prophecy would be meaningless, for example. As a monergist, I know that we make "choices" that do not go against our "will." However, I know that it is God who moves first, creates the circumstances for our wills to choose a certain way. Our synergism is due to His monergism. God Bless.
1aliveinchrist 10 months ago
@1aliveinchrist I am curious of your answer to this question; When you stub you toe is that God's will coming to pass?
musicprodave 10 months ago
@musicprodave Short answer. Yes. God has ordained every day of my life; in fact, He predestinated it. God Bless.
1aliveinchrist 10 months ago
@1aliveinchrist I understand your position. You a right to it but I find it to be not in keeping with thw whole of the Bible. I wish you the best
musicprodave 10 months ago
@musicprodave It would be an interesting discussion how that view is actually what the Bible shows us about God cover to cover. In your toe example, let me ask you this...do you honestly believe that there are things that can occur that are outside of God's control?
1aliveinchrist 10 months ago
@1aliveinchrist i believe that it is clear that you and I would go back and forth and waste time. You are a hyper Calinist. You believe God is the author of evil. You believe in limited atonement. That,s you right to believe. I consider you a brother in Christ and to argue over this would be futile. If you want my paper of this I will send it to you. I would like to pray blessing on you but according to your position it would be a waste of time since evcerything was pre ordained anyway.
musicprodave 10 months ago
@musicprodave The insults are interesting, and certainly unwarrented. I would like to see your paper. Send it. I assume you meant that God is not the "Author of sin" and not "evil" as God says that he makes it all. Is there anything that you think God isn't in contol of? Your snippy comment at the end should reflect volumes to you about your disdain for those who, supposedly like yourself, seek to know the Lord as Jesus told us in John 17:3 was the means of eternal life. I don't want to argue...
1aliveinchrist 10 months ago
@1aliveinchrist I am very sorry if you took my comments as insults. That was not my intention. I simply stated the result of your position. I am not "peddling" a paper...peddling inplies selling something. It is 3175 words. I can't totally explain my position here. That why the paper.
musicprodave 10 months ago
@musicprodave (Cont 2) as arguing is futile, and yes, I believe God is the one who gives the eyes to see and the ears to hear as the Bible clearly indicates. It seems you are more interested in peddling your paper than in having a dialgoue. Why? Send the paper. I shall read it and then perhaps you will not hide behind a difference of opinion to really get to the meat of the matter. God bless you.
1aliveinchrist 10 months ago
A "Dr" who cant spell the name of what he is attempting to refute.
Gideom007 11 months ago
@Gideom007 Have you ever heard of a typo?...If you have an argument against my points, make it. There is nothing gained by personally attacking a person. In my vid, I am very respectful of my Calvanist brethren. I think you could learn something from that. I wish you well
musicprodave 11 months ago
If God allowed people to be born knowing they would not go to Heaven,then why not just cancel their births?God has made 2 groups, one He elected the other He did not.2Peter 3:9 is speaking of believers only(the elect).2 Peter 3:9 would mean an all knowing God is being patient waiting on people to come to Christ,that He knew before time would never come.Why would God be so naive?He's not.
CBALLEN 11 months ago
I believe it would be helpful if you'd read a book by a Calvinist about the Doctrines of Grace, rather than basing your position upon faulty exegesis (which is clearly the case) and a misunderstanding of the facts. If you like the details, one of the best books is "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner. If you want a shorter book, perhaps "Chosen By God" by RC Sproul, or "The Sovereignty of God" by AW Pink. Read one of these and get back to me, if you would.
stegokitty 1 year ago
None of Christianity is true buddy. There are contradictions in the bible. That;s one reason there are so many differing viewpoints and denominations! Think about it.
Ricardius1710 1 year ago
@Ricardius1710 Jesus is the way the truth and the life ...think about that
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave You don't seem to understand me. I'm a non believer in the supernatural. Religion is taken on faith and not evidence. There are many denominations of Christianity who believe that they are the ones with the right interpretations. This is from differing interpretations. There are also many religions who claim to be the true religion. It's all on blind faith and magical thinking and not evidence.
Ricardius1710 1 year ago
@Ricardius1710 I understand that you are an atheist. I am not and your understanding of Christian teaching is flawed. all Christians agree on the fundamentel teachings of the bible. I wish you well
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave See, what you are doing is rationalizing and justifying what "true" Christianity deems as within the pale. It's basically like cherry picking scriptures to justify your point, but done for different reasons. I would take a guess and say that "your" brand of Christianity is the correct one though, right? lol! I guess you are the arbiter of what correct, but the other sects say the same as you. Think about it. There is absolutely no evidence for anything you believe.
Ricardius1710 1 year ago
@musicprodave Have you ever read any books that are critical to your religion? How about just one?
Ricardius1710 1 year ago
@Ricardius1710 listen man...its all good. you don't have to get all upset. Yes I have read many books critical of my religion. You should read "evidence that demands a verdict" ,,,its a good book and perhaps you should read it because it is the opposit of your atheistic belief...be well
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave I have read the book you referred to, as a matter of fact, I've read dozens of books written by Christian writers, see, I used to be a Christian who studied Theology, Apologetics, and Philosophy. I almost became a minister at one point in my life. So, I know a thing or two about Christianity. The book by Josh McDowell isn't the best one around, I'll tell you that. It attempts at giving people that are already Christians, reasons to believe. There aren't any, it's all on blind fait
Ricardius1710 1 year ago
@Ricardius1710 Well I am very sorry to hear that. I will pray for you that your eyes of understanding are open in the spiritual realm. I know you say you don't believe, and that is your choice but I do wish you well and hope the best for you. There are many reasons to believe but since your heart is set against the Christian faith, there is no need or point in argueing with you. Be well.
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave Hey buddy, I appreciate the kind words. I hope the same for you, and I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing with you personally, but I can get pretty passionate about my stance. Anyway, have a good one.
Ricardius1710 1 year ago
@Ricardius1710 Take care and Merry Christmas...ok I cound not resist that one...lol...its all good.
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave Oh, I still celebrate Christmas, because it has become a secular holiday. So, Merry Christmas to you!
Ricardius1710 1 year ago
Never, begin scripture until you first understand the Nature of God. God is Spirit substance. God is love, mercy, truth, etc. Which is first God's Spirit substance or His afore mentioned Virtues? They are simultaneous,of course.God's self existing Life is His Virtue and Spirit.Free will must suspend God's virtues in order to exist, impossible.Free will is independent knowledge or power to choose God cannot not allow this and be perpetual self existing Life.It would be like God holding His breath
polopowers1 1 year ago
@polopowers1 With respect, That is lovely sounding words but makes no sense at all. If you believe that God forced people to sin and then punished them for it, you do not understand the gospel at all. God did not make people for the expressed purpose to send them to Hell...that belief is just nuts.
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave You make three directory statements nuts, lovely sounding, you say force and I don't understand. That sounds more like a child stomping his feet rather than answering intelligently, it is emotional with no substance.I never said God forces because means there is struggle God does not force.Sense ?my statement has depth of meaning well thought out.I don't believe God sent people for the express purpose of hell.Calling people names are strictly games for the self very righteous.
polopowers1 1 year ago
@polopowers1 I said the belief that "God made people for the expressed purpose to send them to Hell" is nuts. I did not say you are nuts. If a person believes in limited atonement double predestination then that is what they believe. If you believe that, then you believe a nutty doctrine. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. and he died "for the sins of the whole world".
musicprodave 1 year ago
Of what benefit is Christ's death supposed to be for those who never believe?
herald1509 1 year ago
@herald1509 it is a matter of grace and mercy offered. He offered to all, but not all accept. example: of what benifit is a food ministry's offer to thed homeless to those who refuse the help? The food is offered but a person may by pride choose to reject it,,the same reason that Jesus sent the 70 to preach and told them that some will recieve and some will not. He could have only sent them to the places where people would recieve.
musicprodave 1 year ago
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herald1509 1 year ago
@music But of what benefit is it to them to be offered something they won't accept? There may still be a reason to offer it (maybe to prove how proud they are), but I don't see how it could be to benefit them.
herald1509 1 year ago
@herald1509 not about what benefits them. Is about God's declaration of grace to all because he is just. This is why Romans 1 teaches creation speaks of God so there is no excuse. God is just , he handles all justly declaring himself to all through the Word and also through creation's evidence of His power. In this no person can say they had excuse to reject God. It is the same reason we give a trial to someone who is beyond a shadow of a doubt guilty...for the sake of applied justice principle
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave Ok, so we can agree that Jesus did not die to benefit all people, correct? He died to save only the believers.
herald1509 1 year ago
@herald1509 Jesus died for all however his foreknowledge was clear on who would get saved. It was not God's will to purposely make some for the expressed purpose of sending them to Hell as Calvin taught. That is contrary to the bible's declaration or Christ's death for the "whole world" "Whosoever" come unto me all that are heavy laden and I will give you rest"
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave Jesus knew not everyone was going to believe and be saved by his death. So can we agree that Jesus didn't die to save people whom he knew weren't going to be saved?
herald1509 1 year ago
@herald1509 he died for the sins of the whole world and onlyt those who recieve his atoning sacrifice have benifit of it
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave Come on, yes or no, did Jesus die to save everyone who ever lived or will live?
herald1509 1 year ago
@herald1509 somethings are not a yes or no answer. I already expressed my position clearly to you. Jesus made provition to save the whole world he dies for the sins of the whole world. He also gace a choice and in his forknowlege he cleary knew who woiuld and would not recieve him. The idea that God from eterity past as an explicit act of his will creatred people to go to Hell is simply wrong and an insult to Christ's atoning work. God did not creat adam and eve and then make them sin.
musicprodave 1 year ago
@music You created a video that says that Limited Atonement is not true. How can you claim that, and not claim that Jesus died to save everyone? Jesus' death was sufficient to save all, and is offered to all, but only saves believers, and was only intended to save believers. Jesus is the saviour of the world in that he saves it from annihilation by keeping a remnant. He is the only Way to the Father, hence he is the only atoning sacrifice for the world. Through Christ alone are people saved.
herald1509 1 year ago
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Yeah!! Very well put. And I agree completely! People who have disagreed, did not LISTEN to you....and did not reach out for their bible to prove anything to themselves. The unfortunate thing here is that there are people out there that just insist on stupid thinking and say/believe anything to save face. Well, they think they are saving face, but there thoughts simply are illogical and irrational. By the way thanks for the comment on Michelle Bachmans bashing.Michelle Bachmann's Crazy Comment?
tjdtjo 1 year ago
Yeah!! Very well put. And I agree completely! People who have disagreed, did not LISTEN to you....and did not reach out for their bible to prove anything to themselves. The unfortunate thing here is that there are people out there that just insist on stupid thinking and say/believe anything to save face. Well, they think they are saving face, but there thoughts simply are illogical and irrational. By the way thanks for the comment on Michelle Bachmans bashing.Michelle Bachmann's Crazy Comment?
tjdtjo 1 year ago
@WiseMonkey888 What are you refrering to as lazy theology?
musicprodave 1 year ago
This is the reason that God only called SOME to be pastors and teachers, because the MAJORITY of those who profess to be so, can't put a single verse in CONTEXT. Your preconceived ideas concerning the nature of God manipulate your understanding of God's word. The passage in 2 Peter 3, if you want to be HONEST, was addressed to BELIEVERS, not unbelievers. "Patient towards YOU".. This is merely ONE example why all are not called to be teachers and pastors.
ShownMercy 1 year ago
@ShownMercy it is irrelevant that he is speaking to believers or not. He still made the same statement "not willing that any should perish" Also the bible tells us that Hell was not made for man and therfore God did not make man by an act of His will to send some men to Hell when Hell was not even made for man.
Your difinitive statement that I am not called by God to be a preacher is a tell tail sign of your lack of ability to have a civil discussion. perhaps you should exibit some grace ?
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave.. You believe in a limited atonement as well as I do. Did Jesus die for those already in Hell at the time of the cross? Of course He didn't. I don't believe you would ever make such a statement. So you also believe in limited atonement. In you proclaiming that Christ died for men that will be in hell for their sin, is to trample on Christ's blood as an unholy thing, unable to atone for the sin of those men. cont....
ShownMercy 1 year ago
@md... In proclaiming that the atonement of Christ was made for every man is also to say that Christ infallibly saved not a single man, but only made all men savable, and that is contrary to Scripture.. I highly doubt that YOU will deny that God has complete knowledge of EVERY man that will inhabit His Heavenly Kingdom in the age to come. And yet you insist that Christ shed His blood in vain for those whom God knew would be eternally damned! Thats pride speaking sir.
ShownMercy 1 year ago
@md.. And it is irrelevant that God created Hell for Satan and his angels. Satan and His angels fell long before man was even created.
ShownMercy 1 year ago
@ShownMercy Thats some very twisted logic. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. To say "Did Jesus die for those already in Hell at the time of the cross? Of course He didn't" is to totally mis understanding of Salvation concerning the Old Testament believers. What you are saying is that God created Adam and Eve, forced them to sin and then judged them for what he forced them to do....thats a strange way to look at God who wants all men saved (2 Tim 2:4)
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave..First of all.. NT, OT, ANY testament, NO ONE has EVER been saved outside the atoning work of Christ. NO ONE comes, or ever has come, to the Father except through Jesus. Second, If you can't get a single verse right, you really don't have any business teaching anyone. 1Tim2:4 has NOTHING to do with God wanting EVERY man to be saved. There is a reason that Paul states "I AM TELLING THE TRUTH, I AM NOT LYING AS A TEACHER OF THE GENTILES IN FAITH AND TRUTH"
ALL MEN= JEW+GENTILE
ShownMercy 1 year ago
@ShownMercy Obviosly all are saved through Christ. Old and New Testament. Your attitude in this discussion is just demonic. I think you would have gona along with Calvin when he concented to the death of a man that did not agree with him. You are not the type of person that anyone can have a discussion with. Good bye
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave..Demonic? LOL! Seriously. That is a very immature comment. I take it your a Charismatic, most likely Pentecostal. Thats the type of comment that comes from those who try to "spiritually" analyze everything. IF you knew your bible you would know that someone who is born again of the Spirit of God CANNOT be demon possessed. But I bet you "cast" demons out of Christians all the time don't you! LOL! Sir, you have no interest in what the TRUTH actually is.
ShownMercy 1 year ago
@ShownMercy Well again you judge with no facts. I am not Charismatic or Pentecostal. In this conversation is that you are obnoxious and unwilling to answer with any substance. If Limited Atonement is true, why Hebrews 2:9 state “that Christ should taste death for everyman?
2) Explain 2 Pet 2:1 which says “denying the Lord that bought them.” If Christ had only died for the church as you claim Acts 20:28 teaches then why would 2 Pet 2:1 state that Christ also died for the false teachers?
musicprodave 1 year ago
@musicprodave.. Let me just say one last thing.. Without knowing WHAT Christ actually accomplished in His death, there is no way to know WHOM He did it for.. You get the WHAT right, you will get the WHO right too. Heb 9:12 states that in His death He "obtained eternal redemption for us".. Did Jesus "eternally redeem" every man? Can an ETERNALLY redeemed man EVER be unredeemed? If he can, he was never ETERNALLY redeemed in the first place.
Get WHAT then you will know WHO.
God bless
ShownMercy 1 year ago
@musicprodave...cont... These passages are crystal clear when PRECONCEIVED IDEAS concerning the nature of God are set aside. Your attempt to make these passages say something they don't because you don't think ITS FAIR for God not to give every man a chance at salvation is SELF WORSHIP at its finest. You care more about the will of man than you do the will of God. You have fashioned a god in your own image whom you call "fair", and thats called Idolatry.
ShownMercy 1 year ago