We ALL deserve this?? We all deserve to be tortured and beaten for eternity?? WHO the FUCK deserves this?? I cant think of ONE person that deserves to be locked up in the basement and be tortured forever, not even for a short time. Maybe Hitler but after like 50 years I think ill show some mercy.
Do you really think a child born in India who has never heard of Jesus then dies of cancer, deserves to be TORTURED FOREVER??? Thats Fucked up, Your religion is Fucked up and I would rather burn in hell than worship a God who designed a torture chamber for people that don't believe in him.
So my suffering is the result of my sin? I think not. Drought, famine, tsunamis, pestilence, floods, ethnic cleansing, rape, murder and torture are my fault? This guys is selling BS.
@GregnLanie No! of course its not your fault. Im not going to lie to you, as a christian as a believer in Jesus Christ and his resurrection! I do not know how sin enter the universe!!! That is a mystery!! Thats where faith comes in! i could be all wrong, I dont think I am! but anyways just sharing with you what i think. Take it easy :)
What I don't wanna hear, Mark, is a flaming calvinist going on and on and on and on and on and on about what we should and should not be doing in order to get saved, what is and what is not sin and why we should avoid it... as there is nothing we can't or can do in calvinism to get saved. For crying out loud man, will you be consistent for once.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Wait a second, have you heard anything else this guy says? He may be closely aligned to Calvinism, but he is biblical, and ALWAYS preaches that it is the grace freely offered by Jesus Christ through his willing, sacrificial, substitution of his life for our own that can save us. If he was rambling here, it was about the characteristics of hell and not the path to salvation. This clip barely mentions salvation and never even lays a foundation of how to "get saved."
LOL man I remember the days I used to hate this guy. It's good he is being blunt. You have to be blunt to get the reality to people. I'm normally very weary of megachurches but it's a relief to see that there's a good one around, at least in my opinion.
I had revelation from God he showed me hell, I was attacked by demons, I felt eternal separation from God, I felt insanity, I felt utter and complete hopelessness let me tell you hell will be so awful that you wouldn't want Hitler to be there. I at the end walked beside Jesus as the demons seen me with him they ran away in the blink of an eye. Myself included need to be doing a better job in our Christian life to share the true gospel and show Gods love to bring to Christ
@angershow1 I had a revelation from God, He showed me there was no hell! It was all a hoax, designed by clergy to terrify folks into submission and take their cash at the same time! Do you give your cash to clergy by any chance?
God sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for your sins. He was buried and rose again. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. John 3:16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Salvation is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone.
How could I enjoy heaven with its eternal joy delight (were I to make it there) when my brethren are suffering in eternal torture worse than the chambers of Auschwitz? How could I enjoy that? Would I not be a sadist or at least selfish to enjoy my own pleasure? If I couldn't see them maybe I would forget or be made to forget about them. But these are hard teachings. Still what the Father wills, the Fathers will be done. But I don't presume to know his will.
@BeauG92 "If I'm wrong, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain" I get ya, these words haven't converted a true believer as far as I know, only superficial conversions.
@BeauG92 "If I'm wrong, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain" I get ya, these words haven't converted a true believer as far as I know, only superficial conversions.
i don't like that he dictates that some of the people in church are going to hell, that may be very well true but if everyone in church gets to know Jesus on their own accord and give their life to Him. then what he said is a lie. do more to bring them closer(which i have never seen someone do as well as mark has) idk... just a thought
@chukknorris Can't you see the difference between the unnecessary sacrifice of a human in a religious ritual to do nothing but accomplish the bloodlust of a God, and the kind self-sacrifice of a parent for his/her child? Do you approve of the sacrificial rituals of the Aztecs and Mayas?
@Grandmastu Such blasphemy, you WILL kneel to him regardless sir, before or after the rapture. I pray you do so before, you will have a much harder time doing so in a FEMA camp being tortured like Nero did to christians in the past. Give your life to Jesus and he will forgive you of your sins, He loves you, you have nothing to lose but your old life of sin.
@meJesusfreak when you say "people refuse to believe the reality of hell" what is it you are saying? Are you saying that people refuse to belive that God is going to burn them in sheol, or hades, or gehenna or tatarus? which one? Hell is translated from these 4 words - which one are people not believing in and which one of these words are scripturally expressed to denote everlating torment in fire?
@etherform66 Gehenna is the anwser to your question. Sheol and hades are the same place, one is the hebrew word while the other is in greek, but both are the place of departed spirits, and tartarus is a prison for fallen angels according to 2 Peter chapter 2. but the actual Everlasting fire is the "Lake of Fire" Found in Revelations 20:12-15 where hades(sheol) and death(The desctructive force that works in anything that dwells in the sphere of time) end up & all who denied Christ.
@JacobGboy Gehenna is a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. By what scriptural authority is the word gehenna - a proper noun and name of a place that exists TO THIS DAY - called hell in the NT? And why is it that the Valley of Himmon (called gehenna in the NT) is left unchanged as such in the OT? Its the same place! Gehenna was a place of infamy but nowhere is it alluded to as being Elohims torture chamber. Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about jacob.
@ChiefLadders yeah, your right, in its literal sense.Christ used it figurative. thank you for quickly attacking and destroying my previous post, instead of edifying us all with what El Eleyon has given you, not much fruit of the Spirit rendering, but i dont want to make this into a youtube comment war, so i will not reply to you any further, examine yourself in your in the faith, as i will examine myself, and let us learn to build one another up in godliness and not disputing
@JacobGboy Christ did not use it in a fugurative sense either jacob. The audience to which Christ spoke knew nothing of eternal damnation because ED not taught in the Law of Moses or the Prophets. *The judgement of gehenna infers immediate physical doom, not eternal separation from Elohim* Over 600,000 Jews were slaughterd and their corpes thrown into gehenna in AD70. Eternal Damnation is a doctrine of demons. Im not at war with you, im at war with a doctrine that insults Christ and the cross.
@etherform66 ohhh.... now it makes sense, your doctrine directly contradicts the words of Christ.
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels - Matt. 25:41
read all of chapter 25 of matthew and examine your doctrine, if it is absolute truth, then there would be no contradiction, & eternal punishment is mentioned - Isaiah 66:24, in love, examine ur heritic doctrine Gal. 1:8-9
@JacobGboy Mat 25 is PARABOLIC jacob. Your idea of exegisis is to flip to any random verse, jam your pretext understanding into it and ignore biblical context. The word eternal is translated from Gk 'aion' meaning 'an age' its NOT eternal. A punishment CANNOT be eternal when defined by an adjective derived from a noun, describing an event, the end of which is said to have come. Also, NO ONE is saved on basis of works, which is what your suggesting if you treat this text as literal. CONTEXT jacob
@etherform66 .... thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire Rev. 20:10&15 - aion's root "AEI" STRONG G104 renders = ever
aion implies eternity, historicly is the name of the greek god of eternity.
aiOnas tOn aiOnOn (Rev.20:10) = ages of the ages continualy OR eternity of eternities
@JacobGboy i admire you enthusiasm jacob. "aei' stems from aion, this much is true. However, a pinch of USAGE is worth a pound of ETYMOLOGY. The stem word "aei" occurs 8 times in the NT & never denotes eternal. It denotes eternal in the same way Job was entangled in the belly of the fish 'forever' Jn2:6 - turns out it was 72 hours or so. If you insist that the word 'aion' means 'eternal' you have MANY problems - "Tell us when shall these things be..and the end of the eternity" ? Mat 24. etc etc
@etherform66 This is my last reply: first, the lake of fire is of course spiritual, its something beyond our understanding, the full wrath of Almighty God demonstrated to all sinners who didnt repent, poured out upon ressurected humans.Here is where you fail, if you are right, then you insult the eternal value of God. Matt. 6:13 says that the kingdom,power, and glory is of the Father's, forEVER (aion) hmm... are you saying that Elohims glory, power, and kingdom is limited? if so, ur a blasphemor
@JacobGboy Time contexts apply to when aion & olam are used in scrupture- duration is determined by the subject to which it is applied. When aion is applied to Jonah's time in the fish, it means seventy two hours; to the priesthood of Aaron, it signifies several centuries; to mountains, thousands of years; to the punishments of a merciful God, as long as necessary to reform his children; to God himself,eternity. When applied to God, the IDEA OF ETERNITY IS DERIVED FROM HIM, AND NOT FROM THE WORD
@JacobGboy your message of doom to the world is a demonic lie jacob. You and you evangelical buddies slander the name of Jesus by insisting that as in Adam all die but in Christ, only a handful of evangelicals who have said a 2 minute 'sinners prayer' are saved. You slander Christ when you teach the world that the precious drop of water from heaven waters only a few blades of grass in the endless fields of humanity. Take your demonic doctrine and go back to your brothers in Babylon jacob.
@etherform66 matt 24 says end of the age not eternity and Mark 9:43 hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not. Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night. you must be reading a Jehovas witness bible and you are deceived this is literal smoke indicating a literal fire 2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
@sharlyates40 If you actually took the time to read what i had said you would discover that i was explaining to jacob that translating 'aion' as eternal is absurd. OF COURSE Mat 24 says age. Mat 9:43 is a reference to GEHENNA - READ EARLIER POSTS, Rev 14:11 and the 2 preceeding chapters describe the church in THIS world; Red Dragon=Roman Empire, Lamb=Christ, 144000 denotes Jewish converts etc etc. These things ARE DONE its is all SYMBOLICALLY expressed! Another ill informed evangelical puppet.
@etherform66 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.Build on the Rock “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. I forgive the puppet insult
@JacobGboy Is 66:24 is not speaking of eternal damnation! The verse here speaks of imminent destruction upon Elohims enemies not in a future post mortem state (as qualified by reference to new moon & sabbath) but then and there. Unquenchable fire is simply fire that is not quenched UNTIL is has burned what it can. Worms not dying speak of maggots feasting on abundance of rotting FLESH (not spirit) till nothing is left. Common OT language. Gal 1:8-9? eternal damnation? haha your the heritic jacob
@JacobGboy regarding the LOF in the BOR 20.. let it be kown that the BOR is symbolic, spiritual and prophetic. It is NOT literal. We are told that 'no prophecy is its own exposition 2Pet 1:20 but must be discerned, comparing spiritual with spiritual - NOT SPIRITUAL WITH NATURAL! You swerve into error because you see a spiritual fire and conclude that it is a natural fire! In every instance where SPIRITUAL FIRE is recorded in the Bible, the outworking is REMEDIAL and transformative Praise Elohim!
@meJesusfreak its sad that people can get pridfully angry about earthly suffering, but have no idea of the depth of their sin. People think serial killers and cruel dictators are unatural when that is at the very depth of all of are hearts. Thank God for the cross and preachers who speak truth that transforms us and not lies that transform Gos to fit us.
@sonsbrightlight And Jesus didn't die for me. In fact, according to your own views, he didn't truly die at all. But in any case, I didn't ask him, and I don't think I can put my wrongdoings onto someone else. I abhor human sacrifice, and any religion that asks me to rejoice in human sacrifice is just sick.
@frabjous79 Kind off ironic that you abhor human sacrifice, but yet you are aware that any parent would gladly take a bullet for their child, and that child would grow to rejoice that they were loved enough to be put first......
@sonsbrightlight It's hard to know where to begin with such a ridiculous comment! Why would God hate anything he himself created? Humans aren't evil. A little self-centered sometimes, but usually pretty caring. I don't believe in sin, and no sane person can. But my objection has nothing to do with sinfulness. I don't do what you call sin very often. I don't *believe*, and couldn't given the lack of evidence. Yet you think that makes me deserve hell. Disgusting.
@frabjous79 because IF God is truly loving, good, and holy he must absolutely hate everything that is not love, good, and holy. that's called sin. God's very nature is a consuming fire so if he just forgave you and you went into His presence you would be destroyed anyway. we're evil. we need to be cleaned. that's why Jesus died in your place and became sin for you. a free gift! but if you don't take it whose fault is it if you choose to stay sinful? He made a way out. can we blame God if we go?
I do my best to get people to enter Gods glory but they continue to not listen and belive their word is above God with their foolish pride and wicked hearts destroys them .
I keep giving reason after reason that God is real and they still dont follow Christ, despite the same message I give people over and over time and time again they still turn away.
I dont want Satan to win over another human soul but people keep walking in the devils lies and listening to the devil
@Revansmask17 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. James 1:12
If anyone wants a Christian idea that can easily be refuted by observing actual reality, this video is it. If the world was good before we messed it up then explain how all of the animals that existed before humans got sick and died.
If hell fits the degree of our sin, how come If one lives 80 years, 80000000000000 years later later they are still getting punished with this torture? you said it's eternal suffering for ever and ever and ever.
I don't get why so many misunderstand the mentioning of hell just as a way to create fear. does a warning sign on the road exist to make you afraid? or does it maybe warn you from the consequences of ignoring the sign? do christians talk about hell to cause fear? yes! why? because you should be afraid... if you ignore Jesus' cross! take it as a warning sign. you are the one to choose, if you wanna run the risk and ignore it, go ahead. but don't call Jesus cruel to give you what you chose.
Notice for a moment how completely unconcerned you are about Islam's belief that you will go to their Hell. Visit a muslim channel and listen to an Imam instruct you about the consequences of not being a follower of Mohammed. You don't give it a moments thought, even though these people are utterly convinced that they are right.
Muslims use exactly the same analogy that you just employed. If your mind is free, you'll see how this analogy about road signs is flawed.
@HellRehab ok, I think you know that I disagree ;-) the point is that mohammed does not seem authentic to me, and even less believable to me is the fact that strict muslims say that he was without sin. sure, christians say the same thing about Jesus, and we even say He is God, you can't compare the 2, they're totally different! allow me to ask, is there is anything YOU believe in? make your fun of us, maybe we are funny in some situations ;-) but for me there's no doubt, Jesus is real
@BornToServeTheLord Muslims are equally convinced through their experiences that Allah is God and you will be judged and doomed to Hell. Try for a moment to consider the gravity of what will happen to you if you are wrong. Close you eyes and let it sink in.
The screams, writhing, people shrieking. In the islamic version of hell your skin is replenished over and over. Rivers of puss, and blood. Billions of people simply "know beyond doubt" that this is your fate.
@BornToServeTheLord Muslims are equally convinced through their experiences that Allah is God and you will be judged and doomed to Hell. Try for a moment to consider the gravity of what will happen to you if you are wrong. Close you eyes and let it sink in. The screams, writhing, people shrieking. In the islamic version of hell your skin is replenished over and over. Rivers of puss, and blood.
Billions of people simply "know beyond doubt" that this is your fate.
I know this analogy won't budge you one bit. I can tell by the comments you've left for me that you are in the zone. The defense mechanism of never giving yourself room to actually entertain a thought like this honestly and freely kicks in. I can hear the objections in you mind before you raise them.
Typically a theist never "de-converts" unless something dramatic happens to change the balance of their familial and social influences. You seem like a kind person though!:)
"No matter how educated, they're reading the same bible."
Precisely the problem. The new-testament was written by 1st century herdsmen. It contains stories of exorcists, dead folks strolling about, demon-possessed pigs, and the torture of the dead.
It was written by folks who had no knowledge of other continents and the cultural isolation of the "souls" who inhabited them.
Or are you one of these who believe that the bible is true because the bible says that the bible is true?
the fact that the disciples were just "herdsmen" makes the scripture more credible. These guys wouldn't have the ability to pull off such an intricate hoax like Christianity, the lie would've come undone.
"These guys wouldn't have the ability to pull off such an intricate hoax like Christianity"
Christianity isn't a hoax, it's a religion. That means it's adherents believe on faith.
It doesn't require great sophistication for 7th century superstitious people such as Mohammed, or whoever forged second Peter to fool 21st century superstitious people.
I'm guessing you're young and likely haven't read any scholarly criticisms of the bible.
@Hoobifta you've been deceived... The most painful death on this world is being burnt alive. And in hell you are being burnt alive but forever... How can anything be worse than that? Many souls have probably said the same as you because they wanted to justify there immoral sinful lives, but then ended up in hell and regretted it so much but they can never change it once they get there. Don't be deceived... Evolution is a LIE. The God of the bible is real and Alive.
Shut up about hell and Jesus! Death is nothing, it's bliss. They convince you because they're arseholes, don't buy that bull! I will not be in hell, I will wake from this world, knowing this world is the matrix, and I hate to go back to this world, it's the worst, hell can't be worse, this world's the worst!
in addition to the lie of eternal damnation, driscol is an accesory to the the propagation of the lie of the tithe ... yes sir... he wants ya cash and is prepared to compramise his cred to get it... ewwwww...
the word 'hell' is not found even one single time in the entire Bible (in the original Hebrew and Greek) - the word comes from 4 words (sheol, hades gehenna and tatarus) - none of these words have anything to do with being eternally tormented - hell is a doctrine forumlated by clergy to control masses of people (and help them part with their cash) - hell is both a word and a doctrine built on a word that God never inspired - driscol is either horribly ignorant or he is just outright lying..
Driscoll and his ilk just make their living by telling lies to people, he is the result of a toxic virus called religion. There is no god, Jesus was just a man, who was either a deluded eccentric or an immoral fraud.
We are moral despite any god and religion. Driscoll's words just prove that religion makes people say and do evil things.
Regardless of whether the trinity is Biblical or true or false or whatever, WHO CARES? It's ultimately not that important. Am I going to go to hell for not really giving a damn about the concept of the trinity? I highly doubt it.
This is a prime example of fear-mongering by Driscoll. People will not experience the fullness of the gospel if hell is their motivation for turning to Jesus in the first place.
So a God who so loved the WORLD sent his only son to save this world. and if you don't accept his gift he will torture you for eternity. makes a TON of sense.
listen carefully he says hell is a fact.. but then goes on to say if im wrong i have nothing to loose and everything to gain if you're wrong you have nothing to gain and everything to loose.. so which is it he needs to be more certain on whether he truly believes in hell .. i personally do believe in hell and i dont want to go there but get the preaching straight
@abominableangel He does believe in Hell he was saying it theoretically for the of those who don't believe. He knows he is not wrong. He was trying to make those who don't think.
Love never fails. God will never fail. If He truly loves people, He wouldn't torture them for all of eternity. Love & eternal torment cannot go together. God is just, yes, but He is not cruel.
1 Tim 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
1 John 2:2- He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
@whatthehellbook I don't agree with the Bible but I like how you see God. As a Deist I don't believe in a personal one but if there is one I would think it's like the one you describe and not this "do what I say or burn although I gave you free will" one.
LOL its funny how he trys to be emotional about hell, mark driscoll is a moron and is a brute, he is an ignorant preacher who needs to study hard before he says shit, mark driscol will burn.
@NazariusThe7th nice point.... wait... you didnt make one. If you are going to say that someone will burn you better have a reason for saying it. you sound ignorant.
@crazykat689 main stream christianity is corrupt and main stream christian preachers are corrupt, you cant trust them they speak truth with lies mixed in.
@NazariusThe7th still have not validated any point... why do you think this? evidence? What are these lies? We do need to be careful to not trust someone only because they claim to be a biblical pastor. hence Rob Bell, who bends the bible to prove a point that cannot support the Gospel of Christ or Any of the prosperity Gospel pastors that give a worldly, watered down, crap Gospel. What do you believe is Legit Christianity?
@crazykat689 you know talking about this wont do anything you need to study and think and search for real pure factual truth, and you cant understand the new testament without first understanding thee old, ive heard many of his sermons and he says things without a deep understanding and he doesnt want real truth he just defends the main streem view without even questioning it, more than half those people wouldnt go to his church if they didnt have those coffee bars and tvs and cool decorations.
@NazariusThe7th You still havent said a thing. WHAT DOES MARK DRISCOL SAY THAT IS UNBIBLICAL? Sight scripture. you sound like you're just being a rebel without a cause. I would agree that the new and old testaments are both important and a part of Gods word. What is this "Factual truth" or the "real truth" that Mark doesnt seem to understand?
@crazykat689 he believes in the trinity, he talks about how watching Avatar is paganism when he and his church celebrate the christ-mass, he tolerrates pentacostal tongues, he counts free-willers as believers, ect.
@NazariusThe7th The trinity is biblical. Jesus is God. God the father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Speaking in tongues is biblical but only when used a very specific way. I've never spoken in tongues and I would say its not biblical to add it as necessary for salvation but it is talked about as a gift. read 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
@NazariusThe7th I've never heard a thing come out of Mark Driscoll's sermons that were not biblically sound. And if you have some "Christianity" that doesn't center around a bible created by God that is 100% true than i dont think we even have a conversation.
@NazariusThe7th Why are you commenting on this if you aren't a Christian? and you didn't answer me.. earlier you just said you haven't done your research. Will you please explain away the craziness from Jesus's baptism.
@jankyscoundrel i am christian, and you need to think for yourself instead of just believing somthing cuz every body else does, and the baptism proves no trinity, thats like saying paul, john, and peter, are a trinity, just because the father yahweh, the ghost, and jesus are all present that doesnt mean they are all one God, equal in power and glory and wisdom and so on, youve heard the main stream inturpretation and go along with it without even teasting it , not good.
@NazariusThe7th I don't need to think for myself Gods word speaks for itself. Would you please still tell me who the dove is, who Jesus is and who the father is, also tell me what it means when the bible says and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, Why does Jesus pray to the father, Who is the spirit of God hovering over the waters, the word who was with God and was God? Start with the baptism this time. Send me a personal message so there is no character limit.
Infinite punishment for finite sins (and for good people who believed in a non Christian God and for good people in general)... that's the justice of an all living God. Come on... Also, Hell contradicts the Christian assertion of the final victory of God over evil. If the "evil ones" and the devil go to hell, then there is still evil, even if it is confined in hell and that's actually God doing evil to punish evilness. Or since when is torture not evil?
@chriswonderboy It's justice. It's not torture. You don't understand that there isn't a single "good" person on the planet. Everything we do is out of pride, and we separate ourselves from God. He's given us an opportunity to balance the scales with faith in his sacrifice, Jesus. Yet, we slap away his hand, so he has no choice but to exact justice on unrepentant people.
@dec4dence I understand perfectly. I was a christian for 28 years, grew up in a church, taught Bible class, had a pastor as a father and know the word and the so called good news and believed it. This is not justice. Justice may be to punish the faulty person with something similar than what he did in his/her lifetime. This burn forever thing is sick, even for Yahweh who in his incredible hatred at least put people to death and that was the end of it. You would not accept this from a real judge.
@chriswonderboy I think a person's agreement/disagreement comes down to their understanding of who God is. If he is just a hateful guy up there throwing us around like chess pieces then of course we don't agree with him. How could the creation have a better moral understanding than the one who created it? It can't. It's impossible. We've lost the truth of who God is, and what makes him God. He is holy. Holy, holy, holy according to the Bible. God is not partial. Read Tozer's Attributes of God.
@dec4dence I don't have a problem with a holy God, I have a problem with the Bible. Why imprison God in a book? I do agree with your statement "We've lost the truth of who God is, and what makes him God. He is holy". I think if there is a holy God, the holiness has been lost in the so called sacred books. That includes the Bible. Again, I do not see a holy God in the Bible, quite the contrary. I do see stories which would have been logical at times of ignorance, not now. I'll read Tozer.
@chriswonderboy Right on man. It's one of the best books I've ever read, and I generally have nothing to do with "Christian literature," but the old guys like Tozer had it right. Shoot. I'll mail it to you if you don't want to buy it. I can say in all seriousness that the Bible is probably the most interesting book I've ever read. I don't think God's holiness is lost in it, but I do believe his holiness is lost in most preacher's interpretation of it today.
@chriswonderboy I had to break down years of false teaching and understanding that preachers had built up in my childhood. I guess it was more of a lack of understanding than any understanding at all. However, listening/reading legitimate Christians like Tozer, C.S. Lewis, John Macarthur, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Paul Washer, David Hocking, and Jack Hibbs is leading me closer to the Truth. The Gospel. Sorry for listing so many. I couldn't help myself :P Those guys rock.
@dec4dence Mmmm, don't forget that you're talking to an atheist who may agree with deism, lol (and who knows the Bible and it's teachings and where all that comes from). The reason I stopped arguing with you is that although I stated that I don't trust the Bible you keep going back to it, so I know I won't change your mind no matter what I say. I wonder if you would be willing to read some of our literature, maybe just for fun, just like I do when I read C.S. Lewis, Mark Driscoll or John Clayton
@chriswonderboy Sure. Don't forget Lewis was a die hard atheist. But, read A.W. Tozer's, "The Attributes of God." I've only read the first volume, but I'm sure the second it just as good. He describes God in the most accurate way I've ever seen. Of course, all his descriptions are derived from the Bible, otherwise I'd think he was making it all up.
@crazykat689 I hope that there's a heaven, And if there is, we'll all be there, That probably there's not, doesn't make me despair, If there was a good God, there would be no hell, If there was a loving God all would turn out well, But probably God's are imaginary! A failed hypothesis! How am I going to experience anything, When I've turned back into dust? see Job 14v10-14, Eccles 3v19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both. All have the same spirit / breath.
@crazykat689 Jesus died to conquer death - the penalty for mans sins. He then rose again - He is the firstfruit of the ressurection and shows that ressurection from death (a state of nothingness) is not the end of the line for the human race. If Jesus took Gods wrath on Himself - which is EVERLASTING damnation (according to you) - why is it that Jesus only spent 72 hours there and not ETERNITY?
@etherform66 I would like to attempt to answer your question. First, whoever stated that God's wrath is everlasting damnation is incorrect in a sense. It's easy to miss that. It was when God forsook Christ on the cross and abandoned Him that God's wrath was was unleashed upon Jesus and satisfied. It is the abandonment of God that is His wrath. This is the key characteristic of hell. Hell is a place that God has eternally abandoned and thus that is what makes it hell. Should I explain more?Thanks
@MrAudacious21 The principle thing that needs to be understood is this word "hell" . The word hell is not found one single time in the ENTIRE Bible (original Hebrew and Greek) - not ONCE! it is both a word and a doctrine built on a word that Elohim NEVER INSPIRED. What Elohim DID inspire are words sheol, hades, gehenna and tatarus. NONE of these Hebrew and Greek words have ANYTHING to do with eternal torment.
@etherform66 Sure. In original script it is not. Neither is the word Trinity, but does that mean God is not triune? However, those words you reference are interesting, arn't they? Sheol is the Heb. word used to describe the "world of the dead" which includes "its inmates". We both know "gehenna" was a literal valley but used figuratively to describe "everlasting punishment". Tartarus- deepest of abyss of Hadees: incarcerate in eternal torment. Now, of course, all of these must be used in
@etherform66 context. Also, we must realize that the words used in the Greek were done so with limitation to the respect that there may have not been "better" words for use and as result we are liable to equivocate in our interpretations. Some things are very difficult to communicate and thus the writers had to "break it down" for believers the best way available. Unfortunately, for us, this causes large philosophical and theological debate.
@MrAudacious21 it is important to understand that scritpurally, the words sheol and hades are one and the same - the grave - look - The words sheol and hades are interchangable - Acts 2:27: "Because You will not leave My soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption" is quoted from:Psalm 16:10: "For You will not leave My soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption." Sheol and hades are the grave, nothing more or less.
@MrAudacious21 happy thanksgiving to you too - im in australia so we dont celebrate it here. Your point about trinity not being in scripture is true - the point that i am making is that we now have a doctrine built upon a word that is totally divorced from its original inspired meaning. That is a big problem and leads us into all kinds of error in our understanding of Elohim, ET is not taught in the OT, not in the 13 epistles of Paul and im happy to discuss all the references made by Jesus..
@MrAudacious21 yes they are interesting words - & great care should be taken when analyzing them. I dont agree that gehenna is used to describe everlasting punishment though. To the Jewish mind, when Christ spoke of being 'cast into gehenna' - the images that were conjured up were not that of eternal damnation because eternal damnation is NOWHERE taught in the OT! It did conjure up images of the reality of Elohims judgement on disobedience though- present and now. Strongs concordance misses it
@etherform66 I'm curious to know, friend, are you professionally trained in translating/reading the Ancient Hebrew and Greek? If not, there where are you getting all of this information from? What are your sources? Because, honestly, you and I could go back and forth in semantics all day. The reality of the matter lies upon who is most historically accurate. However, I am not in complete disagreement with you. Though, I am curious to know how you explain the Lazarus account in Lk 16. Thanks!
@MrAudacious21 No mate, I an not professionally trained but I do spend hundreds of hours studying the Bible. We are all guilty of forcing our own pretext understanding into scripture and ignoring biblical & historical context, we must thoroughly study to be sure we are on target! I was once a fiery preacher of eternal damnation. I have seen people weep with dispair at my words - to my shame. I have been converted by overwhelming evidence that it is a lie and slanders the name of Mighty Elohim.
@MrAudacious21 Luke 16 is a parable. It is a parable concerning the Jews (rich man) and the Gentile (lazarus). Some say that it is a literal teaching but they fail to percieve that Jesus is the first fruit of the ressurection - not abraham or lazarus or anyone else. How can they be ressurected before our Lord? The Jews were rich with the wonders of Elohims ways and revelations, it was taken away and given to the Gentiles because of unbelief and hardness of heart.
@MrAudacious21 Tatarus is nothing but the depths of pagan mythology. It is used by Peter to convey the thought of judgement to an audience that was steeped in that kind of foolery. Peter never considered Tatarus as a real place - it is nothing but a pagan fable
@MrAudacious21 Hi .. your explanation of why Jesus was 'let off the hook' as far as eternal damnation is concerned is making me frown. You are saying essentially that 'hell' is a place that is simply devoid of the presense of Elohim, & that if there is a 'hell' then it is not a place of eternal damnation but simply a place where Elohim is not. I recently read a book by Tom Wright called 'surprised by hope'. He asserts the same thing. The concept is a theological minefield outside scripture bro
@etherform66 A fool’s lips walk into a fight, and his mouth invites a beating.Proverbs 18:6 Don't respond to the stupidity of a fool; you'll only look foolish yourself. Proverbs 26:4
to answer to your question in not my words but the words of scripture.
he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. 1 Corinthians 15:4
@crazykat689 thanks for your comment crazykat. haha iv been called far worse than a fool before! No need to get all nasty now... :) Its thanksgiving and all you know. You still have not answered the question. If Jesus was to suffer the ETERNAL wrath of Elohim, how is it that He spent only 72 hours in 'hell' - and not eternity as evangelicals suggest? If eternal damnation is the punishment for sin and Jesus took that sin upon Himself so I would not have to burn, why isnt He still there?.
@etherform66 the reason is Christ is eternal and did not truly deserve the punishment... in other words eternal - eternal = zero therefore 72 hours wasn't needed necessarily but that's the way he did it
@guzlemuzle hi there - you are suggesting that one eternity cancels out another eternity? It is not possible to have multiple eternities. Also, if you follow this logic you are essentially saying that Christ used His eternal nature to cancel out another event which is said to be eternal, thus nullifying the consequenses. The problem with that is that Christ would not be eternal anymore, given that He threw the water of His eternal life on the flames of an eternal 'hell' - no eternal Christ?!
@guzlemuzle haha no bro, i am not trying to prove the nonexistance of Elohim, i am simply trying to raise conversation regarding the churches doctrine of 'hell" - a place of endless literal torment in real fire. It is not taught in scripture. That is all. Also, Elohim answers my prayers every day! He is very real to me. Have a great christmas break. Shalom.
@etherform66 okay that makes senses... could you answer a question for me then, this idea is very new to me... what did Christ save us from if there is no hell?
@guzlemuzle Christ came to save us from the nothingness of death. The Bible does not teach the immortality of the soul as many other religions claim (buddist, baha'i, islam, sects within christianity, new age etc.) When Christ rose from the dead He beacme the first fruit of the ressurection *unto immortality*. Once a person dies, thats it - "There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" Ecc 9:10 Now we shall experience a ressurection! Death is defeated!
@tomjamisonfrazier true true.. equally as disturbing is the literalisation of symbols that clearly reflect higher spiritual truthes, especially in the BOR.
@crazykat689 looking forward to your reply crazykay689 ... i posted an answer to your question and would appreciate a response ... lets talk this thing out bro - if you are a serious Bible student - maby your just an angry evangelical who is offended because his idol has been knocked over? who knows? no response is as good as an admission of defeat in the broad opinion.... i dont know everything but I get the feeling you are looking for truth..
@etherform66 you tried to provoke me by saying i didnt answer your question because i didnt have an answer when really i just didnt want to, like Jesus, answer a question so that you can think you've cornered me and twist my words. My only Idol that I strive after is Christ. The truth that I know to be is of the bible. Both the death and resurrection had to happen for the gospel to be whole.
@etherform66 Romans 6:4-7 says....We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
@etherform66 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
@crazykat689 im not tyring to corner you crazykat.. dont be so defensive, I just want to discuss doctrine - geez! Heres the thing - none of the verses of scripture you have quoted harmonize with contemporary evangelical theology relating to the demonic doctrine of eternal damnation. If eternal damnation were true, Christ would be eternally damned on our behalf - He is not. Nowhere is it stated that Christ died to save people from 'hell' - He died in order to destroy death and the grave (hell)
@etherform66 what do you think of Mark 9:42-48? And how about Rev. 14:9-11? It seems to me that there currently is a hell, a place of incredible torment, where the wicked go to await Judgement Day. On that Day, it seems, from my reading of the scriptures, that those not written in the Lamb's book of life, will be cast into the "lake of fire", along with hell itself...is that how you read it?
@andrewdreiling11 Hi Andrew.. Mark 9:42-48 ... the word 'hell' here is translated from the Greek word 'gehenna' - a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. It was the place where everything from common garbage to executed criminals were thrown. The flow of thought here is that sins of the heart, left unchecked can lead a person to commit crimes that could see him executed. In the same way that a person who contemplates robbing a bank could see himself on death row as a result of things going bad.
@andrewdreiling11 The BOR is a prophetic revelation of symbols and we are told that *NO prophecy is its own exopsition* 2Pet 1:20 but must be discerned by comparing spiritual with spiritual 1 Cor 2:13 comparing a spiritual fire with a physical fire leads to error in our exegesis. What is this fire, this 'pur' (gk) .. we are baptized with 'pur' we are tried with 'pur' , we are salted with 'pur', there were toungues of 'pur' This spiritual fire must be understood in its correct context.
We ALL deserve this?? We all deserve to be tortured and beaten for eternity?? WHO the FUCK deserves this?? I cant think of ONE person that deserves to be locked up in the basement and be tortured forever, not even for a short time. Maybe Hitler but after like 50 years I think ill show some mercy.
gonzalezozzy989 22 hours ago
Do you really think a child born in India who has never heard of Jesus then dies of cancer, deserves to be TORTURED FOREVER??? Thats Fucked up, Your religion is Fucked up and I would rather burn in hell than worship a God who designed a torture chamber for people that don't believe in him.
gonzalezozzy989 22 hours ago
So my suffering is the result of my sin? I think not. Drought, famine, tsunamis, pestilence, floods, ethnic cleansing, rape, murder and torture are my fault? This guys is selling BS.
GregnLanie 2 days ago
@GregnLanie No! of course its not your fault. Im not going to lie to you, as a christian as a believer in Jesus Christ and his resurrection! I do not know how sin enter the universe!!! That is a mystery!! Thats where faith comes in! i could be all wrong, I dont think I am! but anyways just sharing with you what i think. Take it easy :)
yadatalatura 1 day ago
1:26 you said it the best.
jaymoney1996 3 days ago
What I don't wanna hear, Mark, is a flaming calvinist going on and on and on and on and on and on about what we should and should not be doing in order to get saved, what is and what is not sin and why we should avoid it... as there is nothing we can't or can do in calvinism to get saved. For crying out loud man, will you be consistent for once.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 5 days ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Wait a second, have you heard anything else this guy says? He may be closely aligned to Calvinism, but he is biblical, and ALWAYS preaches that it is the grace freely offered by Jesus Christ through his willing, sacrificial, substitution of his life for our own that can save us. If he was rambling here, it was about the characteristics of hell and not the path to salvation. This clip barely mentions salvation and never even lays a foundation of how to "get saved."
wegogiant 18 hours ago
LOL man I remember the days I used to hate this guy. It's good he is being blunt. You have to be blunt to get the reality to people. I'm normally very weary of megachurches but it's a relief to see that there's a good one around, at least in my opinion.
NashvilleKildCountry 5 days ago
I had revelation from God he showed me hell, I was attacked by demons, I felt eternal separation from God, I felt insanity, I felt utter and complete hopelessness let me tell you hell will be so awful that you wouldn't want Hitler to be there. I at the end walked beside Jesus as the demons seen me with him they ran away in the blink of an eye. Myself included need to be doing a better job in our Christian life to share the true gospel and show Gods love to bring to Christ
angershow1 1 week ago 2
@angershow1 I had a revelation from God, He showed me there was no hell! It was all a hoax, designed by clergy to terrify folks into submission and take their cash at the same time! Do you give your cash to clergy by any chance?
etherform66 1 week ago
@angershow1 The KJV bible says that there is no seperation from God when you are in hell.
SwordofManticorE 1 week ago
God sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for your sins. He was buried and rose again. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. John 3:16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Salvation is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone.
jacksmack77 1 week ago
How could I enjoy heaven with its eternal joy delight (were I to make it there) when my brethren are suffering in eternal torture worse than the chambers of Auschwitz? How could I enjoy that? Would I not be a sadist or at least selfish to enjoy my own pleasure? If I couldn't see them maybe I would forget or be made to forget about them. But these are hard teachings. Still what the Father wills, the Fathers will be done. But I don't presume to know his will.
peacewalker7 1 week ago
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@BeauG92 "If I'm wrong, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain" I get ya, these words haven't converted a true believer as far as I know, only superficial conversions.
sharlyates40 3 weeks ago
@BeauG92 "If I'm wrong, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain" I get ya, these words haven't converted a true believer as far as I know, only superficial conversions.
sharlyates40 3 weeks ago
i don't like that he dictates that some of the people in church are going to hell, that may be very well true but if everyone in church gets to know Jesus on their own accord and give their life to Him. then what he said is a lie. do more to bring them closer(which i have never seen someone do as well as mark has) idk... just a thought
anonymousmagi149 1 month ago
@chukknorris Can't you see the difference between the unnecessary sacrifice of a human in a religious ritual to do nothing but accomplish the bloodlust of a God, and the kind self-sacrifice of a parent for his/her child? Do you approve of the sacrificial rituals of the Aztecs and Mayas?
frabjous79 1 month ago
How does this guy know so much?
GB0318 1 month ago
@GB0318 the bible...
karaj555 1 month ago
Jesus Christ was a faggot.
Grandmastu 1 month ago
@Grandmastu Such blasphemy, you WILL kneel to him regardless sir, before or after the rapture. I pray you do so before, you will have a much harder time doing so in a FEMA camp being tortured like Nero did to christians in the past. Give your life to Jesus and he will forgive you of your sins, He loves you, you have nothing to lose but your old life of sin.
Much love.
nathanj85 1 month ago
@nathanj85 God bless you.
underdog889 1 month ago
@Grandmastu The only way to the father is through Jesus Christ.
underdog889 1 month ago
Thanks for boldly speaking the truth in love pastor Mark. Sad that people refuse to believe the reality and seriousness of hell..
meJesusfreak 1 month ago
@meJesusfreak when you say "people refuse to believe the reality of hell" what is it you are saying? Are you saying that people refuse to belive that God is going to burn them in sheol, or hades, or gehenna or tatarus? which one? Hell is translated from these 4 words - which one are people not believing in and which one of these words are scripturally expressed to denote everlating torment in fire?
etherform66 1 month ago
@etherform66 Gehenna is the anwser to your question. Sheol and hades are the same place, one is the hebrew word while the other is in greek, but both are the place of departed spirits, and tartarus is a prison for fallen angels according to 2 Peter chapter 2. but the actual Everlasting fire is the "Lake of Fire" Found in Revelations 20:12-15 where hades(sheol) and death(The desctructive force that works in anything that dwells in the sphere of time) end up & all who denied Christ.
JacobGboy 1 month ago
@JacobGboy Gehenna is a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. By what scriptural authority is the word gehenna - a proper noun and name of a place that exists TO THIS DAY - called hell in the NT? And why is it that the Valley of Himmon (called gehenna in the NT) is left unchanged as such in the OT? Its the same place! Gehenna was a place of infamy but nowhere is it alluded to as being Elohims torture chamber. Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about jacob.
ChiefLadders 1 month ago
@ChiefLadders yeah, your right, in its literal sense.Christ used it figurative. thank you for quickly attacking and destroying my previous post, instead of edifying us all with what El Eleyon has given you, not much fruit of the Spirit rendering, but i dont want to make this into a youtube comment war, so i will not reply to you any further, examine yourself in your in the faith, as i will examine myself, and let us learn to build one another up in godliness and not disputing
JacobGboy 1 month ago
@JacobGboy Christ did not use it in a fugurative sense either jacob. The audience to which Christ spoke knew nothing of eternal damnation because ED not taught in the Law of Moses or the Prophets. *The judgement of gehenna infers immediate physical doom, not eternal separation from Elohim* Over 600,000 Jews were slaughterd and their corpes thrown into gehenna in AD70. Eternal Damnation is a doctrine of demons. Im not at war with you, im at war with a doctrine that insults Christ and the cross.
etherform66 4 weeks ago
@etherform66 ohhh.... now it makes sense, your doctrine directly contradicts the words of Christ.
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels - Matt. 25:41
read all of chapter 25 of matthew and examine your doctrine, if it is absolute truth, then there would be no contradiction, & eternal punishment is mentioned - Isaiah 66:24, in love, examine ur heritic doctrine Gal. 1:8-9
JacobGboy 4 weeks ago
@JacobGboy Mat 25 is PARABOLIC jacob. Your idea of exegisis is to flip to any random verse, jam your pretext understanding into it and ignore biblical context. The word eternal is translated from Gk 'aion' meaning 'an age' its NOT eternal. A punishment CANNOT be eternal when defined by an adjective derived from a noun, describing an event, the end of which is said to have come. Also, NO ONE is saved on basis of works, which is what your suggesting if you treat this text as literal. CONTEXT jacob
etherform66 4 weeks ago
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JacobGboy 4 weeks ago
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JacobGboy 4 weeks ago
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@etherform66 .... thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire Rev. 20:10&15 - aion's root "AEI" STRONG G104 renders = ever
aion implies eternity, historicly is the name of the greek god of eternity.
aiOnas tOn aiOnOn (Rev.20:10) = ages of the ages continualy OR eternity of eternities
Rpnt
JacobGboy 4 weeks ago
@JacobGboy i admire you enthusiasm jacob. "aei' stems from aion, this much is true. However, a pinch of USAGE is worth a pound of ETYMOLOGY. The stem word "aei" occurs 8 times in the NT & never denotes eternal. It denotes eternal in the same way Job was entangled in the belly of the fish 'forever' Jn2:6 - turns out it was 72 hours or so. If you insist that the word 'aion' means 'eternal' you have MANY problems - "Tell us when shall these things be..and the end of the eternity" ? Mat 24. etc etc
etherform66 3 weeks ago
@etherform66 This is my last reply: first, the lake of fire is of course spiritual, its something beyond our understanding, the full wrath of Almighty God demonstrated to all sinners who didnt repent, poured out upon ressurected humans.Here is where you fail, if you are right, then you insult the eternal value of God. Matt. 6:13 says that the kingdom,power, and glory is of the Father's, forEVER (aion) hmm... are you saying that Elohims glory, power, and kingdom is limited? if so, ur a blasphemor
JacobGboy 3 weeks ago
@JacobGboy Time contexts apply to when aion & olam are used in scrupture- duration is determined by the subject to which it is applied. When aion is applied to Jonah's time in the fish, it means seventy two hours; to the priesthood of Aaron, it signifies several centuries; to mountains, thousands of years; to the punishments of a merciful God, as long as necessary to reform his children; to God himself,eternity. When applied to God, the IDEA OF ETERNITY IS DERIVED FROM HIM, AND NOT FROM THE WORD
etherform66 3 weeks ago
@JacobGboy your message of doom to the world is a demonic lie jacob. You and you evangelical buddies slander the name of Jesus by insisting that as in Adam all die but in Christ, only a handful of evangelicals who have said a 2 minute 'sinners prayer' are saved. You slander Christ when you teach the world that the precious drop of water from heaven waters only a few blades of grass in the endless fields of humanity. Take your demonic doctrine and go back to your brothers in Babylon jacob.
etherform66 3 weeks ago
@etherform66 matt 24 says end of the age not eternity and Mark 9:43 hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not. Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night. you must be reading a Jehovas witness bible and you are deceived this is literal smoke indicating a literal fire 2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
sharlyates40 3 weeks ago
@sharlyates40 If you actually took the time to read what i had said you would discover that i was explaining to jacob that translating 'aion' as eternal is absurd. OF COURSE Mat 24 says age. Mat 9:43 is a reference to GEHENNA - READ EARLIER POSTS, Rev 14:11 and the 2 preceeding chapters describe the church in THIS world; Red Dragon=Roman Empire, Lamb=Christ, 144000 denotes Jewish converts etc etc. These things ARE DONE its is all SYMBOLICALLY expressed! Another ill informed evangelical puppet.
etherform66 3 weeks ago
@etherform66 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.Build on the Rock “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. I forgive the puppet insult
sharlyates40 3 weeks ago
@sharlyates40 blah blah blah.... I forgive you for using scripture to insult me in your privious post - have a nice day.
etherform66 3 weeks ago
@JacobGboy Is 66:24 is not speaking of eternal damnation! The verse here speaks of imminent destruction upon Elohims enemies not in a future post mortem state (as qualified by reference to new moon & sabbath) but then and there. Unquenchable fire is simply fire that is not quenched UNTIL is has burned what it can. Worms not dying speak of maggots feasting on abundance of rotting FLESH (not spirit) till nothing is left. Common OT language. Gal 1:8-9? eternal damnation? haha your the heritic jacob
etherform66 4 weeks ago
@JacobGboy regarding the LOF in the BOR 20.. let it be kown that the BOR is symbolic, spiritual and prophetic. It is NOT literal. We are told that 'no prophecy is its own exposition 2Pet 1:20 but must be discerned, comparing spiritual with spiritual - NOT SPIRITUAL WITH NATURAL! You swerve into error because you see a spiritual fire and conclude that it is a natural fire! In every instance where SPIRITUAL FIRE is recorded in the Bible, the outworking is REMEDIAL and transformative Praise Elohim!
etherform66 3 weeks ago
@meJesusfreak its sad that people can get pridfully angry about earthly suffering, but have no idea of the depth of their sin. People think serial killers and cruel dictators are unatural when that is at the very depth of all of are hearts. Thank God for the cross and preachers who speak truth that transforms us and not lies that transform Gos to fit us.
karaj555 1 month ago
@sonsbrightlight And Jesus didn't die for me. In fact, according to your own views, he didn't truly die at all. But in any case, I didn't ask him, and I don't think I can put my wrongdoings onto someone else. I abhor human sacrifice, and any religion that asks me to rejoice in human sacrifice is just sick.
frabjous79 1 month ago
@frabjous79 Kind off ironic that you abhor human sacrifice, but yet you are aware that any parent would gladly take a bullet for their child, and that child would grow to rejoice that they were loved enough to be put first......
chukknorris 1 month ago
@sonsbrightlight It's hard to know where to begin with such a ridiculous comment! Why would God hate anything he himself created? Humans aren't evil. A little self-centered sometimes, but usually pretty caring. I don't believe in sin, and no sane person can. But my objection has nothing to do with sinfulness. I don't do what you call sin very often. I don't *believe*, and couldn't given the lack of evidence. Yet you think that makes me deserve hell. Disgusting.
frabjous79 1 month ago
How can anyone believe that a loving being would torment people forever for finite crimes? What sickness is this religion?
frabjous79 1 month ago
@frabjous79 because IF God is truly loving, good, and holy he must absolutely hate everything that is not love, good, and holy. that's called sin. God's very nature is a consuming fire so if he just forgave you and you went into His presence you would be destroyed anyway. we're evil. we need to be cleaned. that's why Jesus died in your place and became sin for you. a free gift! but if you don't take it whose fault is it if you choose to stay sinful? He made a way out. can we blame God if we go?
sonsbrightlight 1 month ago
Well Said!
Venusstar22 1 month ago
I do my best to get people to enter Gods glory but they continue to not listen and belive their word is above God with their foolish pride and wicked hearts destroys them .
I keep giving reason after reason that God is real and they still dont follow Christ, despite the same message I give people over and over time and time again they still turn away.
I dont want Satan to win over another human soul but people keep walking in the devils lies and listening to the devil
Revansmask17 1 month ago
@Revansmask17 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. James 1:12
AnimeDoode 1 month ago
If anyone wants a Christian idea that can easily be refuted by observing actual reality, this video is it. If the world was good before we messed it up then explain how all of the animals that existed before humans got sick and died.
elzoog 1 month ago
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HellRehab 1 month ago
If hell fits the degree of our sin, how come If one lives 80 years, 80000000000000 years later later they are still getting punished with this torture? you said it's eternal suffering for ever and ever and ever.
fgysn 1 month ago
@fgysn the degree has no bearing on time..he means the degree of suffering whilst spending ETERNITY in hell.
djdarklyceum 1 month ago
I don't get why so many misunderstand the mentioning of hell just as a way to create fear. does a warning sign on the road exist to make you afraid? or does it maybe warn you from the consequences of ignoring the sign? do christians talk about hell to cause fear? yes! why? because you should be afraid... if you ignore Jesus' cross! take it as a warning sign. you are the one to choose, if you wanna run the risk and ignore it, go ahead. but don't call Jesus cruel to give you what you chose.
BornToServeTheLord 1 month ago
@BornToServeTheLord
Notice for a moment how completely unconcerned you are about Islam's belief that you will go to their Hell. Visit a muslim channel and listen to an Imam instruct you about the consequences of not being a follower of Mohammed. You don't give it a moments thought, even though these people are utterly convinced that they are right.
Muslims use exactly the same analogy that you just employed. If your mind is free, you'll see how this analogy about road signs is flawed.
Peace!
HellRehab 1 month ago
@HellRehab ok, I think you know that I disagree ;-) the point is that mohammed does not seem authentic to me, and even less believable to me is the fact that strict muslims say that he was without sin. sure, christians say the same thing about Jesus, and we even say He is God, you can't compare the 2, they're totally different! allow me to ask, is there is anything YOU believe in? make your fun of us, maybe we are funny in some situations ;-) but for me there's no doubt, Jesus is real
BornToServeTheLord 1 month ago
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@BornToServeTheLord Muslims are equally convinced through their experiences that Allah is God and you will be judged and doomed to Hell. Try for a moment to consider the gravity of what will happen to you if you are wrong. Close you eyes and let it sink in.
The screams, writhing, people shrieking. In the islamic version of hell your skin is replenished over and over. Rivers of puss, and blood. Billions of people simply "know beyond doubt" that this is your fate.
You scared?....Me neither.
HellRehab 1 month ago
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@BornToServeTheLord Muslims are equally convinced through their experiences that Allah is God and you will be judged and doomed to Hell. Try for a moment to consider the gravity of what will happen to you if you are wrong. Close you eyes and let it sink in. The screams, writhing, people shrieking. In the islamic version of hell your skin is replenished over and over. Rivers of puss, and blood.
Billions of people simply "know beyond doubt" that this is your fate.
You scared?....Me neither.
HellRehab 1 month ago
@BornToServeTheLord
I know this analogy won't budge you one bit. I can tell by the comments you've left for me that you are in the zone. The defense mechanism of never giving yourself room to actually entertain a thought like this honestly and freely kicks in. I can hear the objections in you mind before you raise them.
Typically a theist never "de-converts" unless something dramatic happens to change the balance of their familial and social influences. You seem like a kind person though!:)
HellRehab 1 month ago
V-neck t-shirt. Check!
Wide leather strap on wrist. Check!
Slight razor stubble. Check!
Hip denim jeans. Check!
He's still presenting the same old tired Hell-fire sermon that semi-literate Christians preach in the hills of Tennessee. Believe or burn!
HellRehab 2 months ago
@HellRehab Yeah...Believe or Burn, I AGREE!
KnightsHospitallerBC 2 months ago
@HellRehab so whats your point here? No matter how educated, they're reading the same bible.
petermS14 1 month ago
@petermS14
"No matter how educated, they're reading the same bible."
Precisely the problem. The new-testament was written by 1st century herdsmen. It contains stories of exorcists, dead folks strolling about, demon-possessed pigs, and the torture of the dead.
It was written by folks who had no knowledge of other continents and the cultural isolation of the "souls" who inhabited them.
Or are you one of these who believe that the bible is true because the bible says that the bible is true?
HellRehab 1 month ago
@HellRehab
the fact that the disciples were just "herdsmen" makes the scripture more credible. These guys wouldn't have the ability to pull off such an intricate hoax like Christianity, the lie would've come undone.
petermS14 1 month ago
@petermS14
"These guys wouldn't have the ability to pull off such an intricate hoax like Christianity"
Christianity isn't a hoax, it's a religion. That means it's adherents believe on faith.
It doesn't require great sophistication for 7th century superstitious people such as Mohammed, or whoever forged second Peter to fool 21st century superstitious people.
I'm guessing you're young and likely haven't read any scholarly criticisms of the bible.
HellRehab 1 month ago
@Hoobifta you've been deceived... The most painful death on this world is being burnt alive. And in hell you are being burnt alive but forever... How can anything be worse than that? Many souls have probably said the same as you because they wanted to justify there immoral sinful lives, but then ended up in hell and regretted it so much but they can never change it once they get there. Don't be deceived... Evolution is a LIE. The God of the bible is real and Alive.
k12rising 2 months ago
Shut up about hell and Jesus! Death is nothing, it's bliss. They convince you because they're arseholes, don't buy that bull! I will not be in hell, I will wake from this world, knowing this world is the matrix, and I hate to go back to this world, it's the worst, hell can't be worse, this world's the worst!
Hoobifta 2 months ago
@xjoe1988x because none of us deserve to rest in peace.
lewecca 2 months ago
@lewecca Nobody deserves torture. Torture is wickedness and depravity.
dannytibi 2 months ago
silly meaningless drival based on the writings of stone age fools
funcpl2741054 2 months ago
@funcpl2741054 *drivel
*The stone age ended roughly 4500 years before the life of Christ.
Tundr4Punch 1 month ago
Jesus rules hell? wow , nice guy
TheNomad1970 2 months ago
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Georgephyl 2 months ago
in addition to the lie of eternal damnation, driscol is an accesory to the the propagation of the lie of the tithe ... yes sir... he wants ya cash and is prepared to compramise his cred to get it... ewwwww...
etherform66 3 months ago
the word 'hell' is not found even one single time in the entire Bible (in the original Hebrew and Greek) - the word comes from 4 words (sheol, hades gehenna and tatarus) - none of these words have anything to do with being eternally tormented - hell is a doctrine forumlated by clergy to control masses of people (and help them part with their cash) - hell is both a word and a doctrine built on a word that God never inspired - driscol is either horribly ignorant or he is just outright lying..
etherform66 3 months ago
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Driscoll, FUCK YOUR GOD MYTH.
roac7777 3 months ago
Driscoll and his ilk just make their living by telling lies to people, he is the result of a toxic virus called religion. There is no god, Jesus was just a man, who was either a deluded eccentric or an immoral fraud.
We are moral despite any god and religion. Driscoll's words just prove that religion makes people say and do evil things.
roac7777 3 months ago
Regardless of whether the trinity is Biblical or true or false or whatever, WHO CARES? It's ultimately not that important. Am I going to go to hell for not really giving a damn about the concept of the trinity? I highly doubt it.
YouTubricant 3 months ago
This is a prime example of fear-mongering by Driscoll. People will not experience the fullness of the gospel if hell is their motivation for turning to Jesus in the first place.
YouTubricant 3 months ago
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So a God who so loved the WORLD sent his only son to save this world. and if you don't accept his gift he will torture you for eternity. makes a TON of sense.
jooonlove 3 months ago
Meek and mild Jesus will watch you suffer!
manmadesounds 3 months ago
listen carefully he says hell is a fact.. but then goes on to say if im wrong i have nothing to loose and everything to gain if you're wrong you have nothing to gain and everything to loose.. so which is it he needs to be more certain on whether he truly believes in hell .. i personally do believe in hell and i dont want to go there but get the preaching straight
abominableangel 3 months ago
@abominableangel I agree with that. I think he said it just on a whim. He's just a man you know.
dec4dence 3 months ago
@abominableangel He does believe in Hell he was saying it theoretically for the of those who don't believe. He knows he is not wrong. He was trying to make those who don't think.
crazykat689 3 months ago
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Love never fails. God will never fail. If He truly loves people, He wouldn't torture them for all of eternity. Love & eternal torment cannot go together. God is just, yes, but He is not cruel.
1 Tim 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
1 John 2:2- He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 3 months ago
@whatthehellbook I don't agree with the Bible but I like how you see God. As a Deist I don't believe in a personal one but if there is one I would think it's like the one you describe and not this "do what I say or burn although I gave you free will" one.
chriswonderboy 3 months ago
@chriswonderboy God is love. He would never torture His children :)
whatthehellbook 3 months ago
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jpopovics1 3 months ago
LOL its funny how he trys to be emotional about hell, mark driscoll is a moron and is a brute, he is an ignorant preacher who needs to study hard before he says shit, mark driscol will burn.
NazariusThe7th 3 months ago
@NazariusThe7th huh?
dec4dence 3 months ago
@NazariusThe7th nice point.... wait... you didnt make one. If you are going to say that someone will burn you better have a reason for saying it. you sound ignorant.
crazykat689 3 months ago
@crazykat689 main stream christianity is corrupt and main stream christian preachers are corrupt, you cant trust them they speak truth with lies mixed in.
NazariusThe7th 3 months ago
@NazariusThe7th still have not validated any point... why do you think this? evidence? What are these lies? We do need to be careful to not trust someone only because they claim to be a biblical pastor. hence Rob Bell, who bends the bible to prove a point that cannot support the Gospel of Christ or Any of the prosperity Gospel pastors that give a worldly, watered down, crap Gospel. What do you believe is Legit Christianity?
crazykat689 3 months ago
@crazykat689 you know talking about this wont do anything you need to study and think and search for real pure factual truth, and you cant understand the new testament without first understanding thee old, ive heard many of his sermons and he says things without a deep understanding and he doesnt want real truth he just defends the main streem view without even questioning it, more than half those people wouldnt go to his church if they didnt have those coffee bars and tvs and cool decorations.
NazariusThe7th 3 months ago
@NazariusThe7th You still havent said a thing. WHAT DOES MARK DRISCOL SAY THAT IS UNBIBLICAL? Sight scripture. you sound like you're just being a rebel without a cause. I would agree that the new and old testaments are both important and a part of Gods word. What is this "Factual truth" or the "real truth" that Mark doesnt seem to understand?
crazykat689 3 months ago
@crazykat689 he believes in the trinity, he talks about how watching Avatar is paganism when he and his church celebrate the christ-mass, he tolerrates pentacostal tongues, he counts free-willers as believers, ect.
NazariusThe7th 3 months ago
@NazariusThe7th The trinity is unbiblical? What kind of craziness was going on at the baptism of Jesus?
jankyscoundrel 3 months ago
@jankyscoundrel lol, i guess you havent done much research or thinking on this subject.
NazariusThe7th 3 months ago
@NazariusThe7th The trinity is biblical. Jesus is God. God the father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Speaking in tongues is biblical but only when used a very specific way. I've never spoken in tongues and I would say its not biblical to add it as necessary for salvation but it is talked about as a gift. read 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
"free-willer"? arminianism?
not sure about the avatar part.
crazykat689 3 months ago
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crazykat689 3 months ago
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@NazariusThe7th I've never heard a thing come out of Mark Driscoll's sermons that were not biblically sound. And if you have some "Christianity" that doesn't center around a bible created by God that is 100% true than i dont think we even have a conversation.
crazykat689 1 second ago
crazykat689 3 months ago
@NazariusThe7th Why are you commenting on this if you aren't a Christian? and you didn't answer me.. earlier you just said you haven't done your research. Will you please explain away the craziness from Jesus's baptism.
jankyscoundrel 3 months ago
@jankyscoundrel i am christian, and you need to think for yourself instead of just believing somthing cuz every body else does, and the baptism proves no trinity, thats like saying paul, john, and peter, are a trinity, just because the father yahweh, the ghost, and jesus are all present that doesnt mean they are all one God, equal in power and glory and wisdom and so on, youve heard the main stream inturpretation and go along with it without even teasting it , not good.
NazariusThe7th 3 months ago
@NazariusThe7th I don't need to think for myself Gods word speaks for itself. Would you please still tell me who the dove is, who Jesus is and who the father is, also tell me what it means when the bible says and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, Why does Jesus pray to the father, Who is the spirit of God hovering over the waters, the word who was with God and was God? Start with the baptism this time. Send me a personal message so there is no character limit.
jankyscoundrel 3 months ago
Infinite punishment for finite sins (and for good people who believed in a non Christian God and for good people in general)... that's the justice of an all living God. Come on... Also, Hell contradicts the Christian assertion of the final victory of God over evil. If the "evil ones" and the devil go to hell, then there is still evil, even if it is confined in hell and that's actually God doing evil to punish evilness. Or since when is torture not evil?
chriswonderboy 3 months ago
@chriswonderboy It's justice. It's not torture. You don't understand that there isn't a single "good" person on the planet. Everything we do is out of pride, and we separate ourselves from God. He's given us an opportunity to balance the scales with faith in his sacrifice, Jesus. Yet, we slap away his hand, so he has no choice but to exact justice on unrepentant people.
dec4dence 3 months ago
@dec4dence I understand perfectly. I was a christian for 28 years, grew up in a church, taught Bible class, had a pastor as a father and know the word and the so called good news and believed it. This is not justice. Justice may be to punish the faulty person with something similar than what he did in his/her lifetime. This burn forever thing is sick, even for Yahweh who in his incredible hatred at least put people to death and that was the end of it. You would not accept this from a real judge.
chriswonderboy 3 months ago
@chriswonderboy I think a person's agreement/disagreement comes down to their understanding of who God is. If he is just a hateful guy up there throwing us around like chess pieces then of course we don't agree with him. How could the creation have a better moral understanding than the one who created it? It can't. It's impossible. We've lost the truth of who God is, and what makes him God. He is holy. Holy, holy, holy according to the Bible. God is not partial. Read Tozer's Attributes of God.
dec4dence 3 months ago
@dec4dence I don't have a problem with a holy God, I have a problem with the Bible. Why imprison God in a book? I do agree with your statement "We've lost the truth of who God is, and what makes him God. He is holy". I think if there is a holy God, the holiness has been lost in the so called sacred books. That includes the Bible. Again, I do not see a holy God in the Bible, quite the contrary. I do see stories which would have been logical at times of ignorance, not now. I'll read Tozer.
chriswonderboy 3 months ago
@chriswonderboy Right on man. It's one of the best books I've ever read, and I generally have nothing to do with "Christian literature," but the old guys like Tozer had it right. Shoot. I'll mail it to you if you don't want to buy it. I can say in all seriousness that the Bible is probably the most interesting book I've ever read. I don't think God's holiness is lost in it, but I do believe his holiness is lost in most preacher's interpretation of it today.
dec4dence 3 months ago
@chriswonderboy I had to break down years of false teaching and understanding that preachers had built up in my childhood. I guess it was more of a lack of understanding than any understanding at all. However, listening/reading legitimate Christians like Tozer, C.S. Lewis, John Macarthur, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Paul Washer, David Hocking, and Jack Hibbs is leading me closer to the Truth. The Gospel. Sorry for listing so many. I couldn't help myself :P Those guys rock.
dec4dence 3 months ago
@dec4dence Mmmm, don't forget that you're talking to an atheist who may agree with deism, lol (and who knows the Bible and it's teachings and where all that comes from). The reason I stopped arguing with you is that although I stated that I don't trust the Bible you keep going back to it, so I know I won't change your mind no matter what I say. I wonder if you would be willing to read some of our literature, maybe just for fun, just like I do when I read C.S. Lewis, Mark Driscoll or John Clayton
chriswonderboy 3 months ago
@chriswonderboy Sure. Don't forget Lewis was a die hard atheist. But, read A.W. Tozer's, "The Attributes of God." I've only read the first volume, but I'm sure the second it just as good. He describes God in the most accurate way I've ever seen. Of course, all his descriptions are derived from the Bible, otherwise I'd think he was making it all up.
dec4dence 3 months ago 2
@dec4dence Thanks for telling about that book, "The Attributes of God" That sounds good, I think I'll read it.
jpopovics1 3 months ago
@dec4dence Lewis converted to Christianity
crazykat689 3 months ago
Fearmonger using Pascal's wager... Hell is a FACT? Prove it.
chriswonderboy 3 months ago
FOR THOSE THAT ARE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST AND DO NO BELIEVE IN HELL.....IF HELL DID NOT EXIST THEN WHY DID JESUS HAVE TO DIE?
crazykat689 4 months ago 10
@crazykat689 you right, you right. you better say that. :)
missjamaica01 3 months ago
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@crazykat689 I hope that there's a heaven, And if there is, we'll all be there, That probably there's not, doesn't make me despair, If there was a good God, there would be no hell, If there was a loving God all would turn out well, But probably God's are imaginary! A failed hypothesis! How am I going to experience anything, When I've turned back into dust? see Job 14v10-14, Eccles 3v19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both. All have the same spirit / breath.
zytigon 3 months ago
@crazykat689 Jesus died to conquer death - the penalty for mans sins. He then rose again - He is the firstfruit of the ressurection and shows that ressurection from death (a state of nothingness) is not the end of the line for the human race. If Jesus took Gods wrath on Himself - which is EVERLASTING damnation (according to you) - why is it that Jesus only spent 72 hours there and not ETERNITY?
etherform66 3 months ago
@etherform66 I would like to attempt to answer your question. First, whoever stated that God's wrath is everlasting damnation is incorrect in a sense. It's easy to miss that. It was when God forsook Christ on the cross and abandoned Him that God's wrath was was unleashed upon Jesus and satisfied. It is the abandonment of God that is His wrath. This is the key characteristic of hell. Hell is a place that God has eternally abandoned and thus that is what makes it hell. Should I explain more?Thanks
MrAudacious21 3 months ago
@MrAudacious21 The principle thing that needs to be understood is this word "hell" . The word hell is not found one single time in the ENTIRE Bible (original Hebrew and Greek) - not ONCE! it is both a word and a doctrine built on a word that Elohim NEVER INSPIRED. What Elohim DID inspire are words sheol, hades, gehenna and tatarus. NONE of these Hebrew and Greek words have ANYTHING to do with eternal torment.
etherform66 3 months ago
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MrAudacious21 3 months ago
@etherform66 Sure. In original script it is not. Neither is the word Trinity, but does that mean God is not triune? However, those words you reference are interesting, arn't they? Sheol is the Heb. word used to describe the "world of the dead" which includes "its inmates". We both know "gehenna" was a literal valley but used figuratively to describe "everlasting punishment". Tartarus- deepest of abyss of Hadees: incarcerate in eternal torment. Now, of course, all of these must be used in
MrAudacious21 3 months ago
@etherform66 context. Also, we must realize that the words used in the Greek were done so with limitation to the respect that there may have not been "better" words for use and as result we are liable to equivocate in our interpretations. Some things are very difficult to communicate and thus the writers had to "break it down" for believers the best way available. Unfortunately, for us, this causes large philosophical and theological debate.
MrAudacious21 3 months ago
@MrAudacious21 it is important to understand that scritpurally, the words sheol and hades are one and the same - the grave - look - The words sheol and hades are interchangable - Acts 2:27: "Because You will not leave My soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption" is quoted from:Psalm 16:10: "For You will not leave My soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption." Sheol and hades are the grave, nothing more or less.
etherform66 3 months ago
@MrAudacious21 happy thanksgiving to you too - im in australia so we dont celebrate it here. Your point about trinity not being in scripture is true - the point that i am making is that we now have a doctrine built upon a word that is totally divorced from its original inspired meaning. That is a big problem and leads us into all kinds of error in our understanding of Elohim, ET is not taught in the OT, not in the 13 epistles of Paul and im happy to discuss all the references made by Jesus..
etherform66 3 months ago
@MrAudacious21 yes they are interesting words - & great care should be taken when analyzing them. I dont agree that gehenna is used to describe everlasting punishment though. To the Jewish mind, when Christ spoke of being 'cast into gehenna' - the images that were conjured up were not that of eternal damnation because eternal damnation is NOWHERE taught in the OT! It did conjure up images of the reality of Elohims judgement on disobedience though- present and now. Strongs concordance misses it
etherform66 3 months ago
@etherform66 I'm curious to know, friend, are you professionally trained in translating/reading the Ancient Hebrew and Greek? If not, there where are you getting all of this information from? What are your sources? Because, honestly, you and I could go back and forth in semantics all day. The reality of the matter lies upon who is most historically accurate. However, I am not in complete disagreement with you. Though, I am curious to know how you explain the Lazarus account in Lk 16. Thanks!
MrAudacious21 3 months ago
@MrAudacious21 No mate, I an not professionally trained but I do spend hundreds of hours studying the Bible. We are all guilty of forcing our own pretext understanding into scripture and ignoring biblical & historical context, we must thoroughly study to be sure we are on target! I was once a fiery preacher of eternal damnation. I have seen people weep with dispair at my words - to my shame. I have been converted by overwhelming evidence that it is a lie and slanders the name of Mighty Elohim.
etherform66 3 months ago
@MrAudacious21 Luke 16 is a parable. It is a parable concerning the Jews (rich man) and the Gentile (lazarus). Some say that it is a literal teaching but they fail to percieve that Jesus is the first fruit of the ressurection - not abraham or lazarus or anyone else. How can they be ressurected before our Lord? The Jews were rich with the wonders of Elohims ways and revelations, it was taken away and given to the Gentiles because of unbelief and hardness of heart.
etherform66 3 months ago
@MrAudacious21 Tatarus is nothing but the depths of pagan mythology. It is used by Peter to convey the thought of judgement to an audience that was steeped in that kind of foolery. Peter never considered Tatarus as a real place - it is nothing but a pagan fable
etherform66 3 months ago
@MrAudacious21 Hi .. your explanation of why Jesus was 'let off the hook' as far as eternal damnation is concerned is making me frown. You are saying essentially that 'hell' is a place that is simply devoid of the presense of Elohim, & that if there is a 'hell' then it is not a place of eternal damnation but simply a place where Elohim is not. I recently read a book by Tom Wright called 'surprised by hope'. He asserts the same thing. The concept is a theological minefield outside scripture bro
etherform66 3 months ago
@etherform66 Please present the theological mines along with the scriptures. Thanks.
MrAudacious21 3 months ago
@etherform66 A fool’s lips walk into a fight, and his mouth invites a beating.Proverbs 18:6 Don't respond to the stupidity of a fool; you'll only look foolish yourself. Proverbs 26:4
to answer to your question in not my words but the words of scripture.
he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. 1 Corinthians 15:4
oh and i am a woman thank you
crazykat689 3 months ago
@crazykat689 thanks for your comment crazykat. haha iv been called far worse than a fool before! No need to get all nasty now... :) Its thanksgiving and all you know. You still have not answered the question. If Jesus was to suffer the ETERNAL wrath of Elohim, how is it that He spent only 72 hours in 'hell' - and not eternity as evangelicals suggest? If eternal damnation is the punishment for sin and Jesus took that sin upon Himself so I would not have to burn, why isnt He still there?.
etherform66 3 months ago
@etherform66 the reason is Christ is eternal and did not truly deserve the punishment... in other words eternal - eternal = zero therefore 72 hours wasn't needed necessarily but that's the way he did it
guzlemuzle 2 months ago
@guzlemuzle hi there - you are suggesting that one eternity cancels out another eternity? It is not possible to have multiple eternities. Also, if you follow this logic you are essentially saying that Christ used His eternal nature to cancel out another event which is said to be eternal, thus nullifying the consequenses. The problem with that is that Christ would not be eternal anymore, given that He threw the water of His eternal life on the flames of an eternal 'hell' - no eternal Christ?!
etherform66 2 months ago
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guzlemuzle 2 months ago
@guzlemuzle haha no bro, i am not trying to prove the nonexistance of Elohim, i am simply trying to raise conversation regarding the churches doctrine of 'hell" - a place of endless literal torment in real fire. It is not taught in scripture. That is all. Also, Elohim answers my prayers every day! He is very real to me. Have a great christmas break. Shalom.
etherform66 2 months ago
@etherform66 okay that makes senses... could you answer a question for me then, this idea is very new to me... what did Christ save us from if there is no hell?
guzlemuzle 2 months ago
@guzlemuzle Christ came to save us from the nothingness of death. The Bible does not teach the immortality of the soul as many other religions claim (buddist, baha'i, islam, sects within christianity, new age etc.) When Christ rose from the dead He beacme the first fruit of the ressurection *unto immortality*. Once a person dies, thats it - "There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" Ecc 9:10 Now we shall experience a ressurection! Death is defeated!
etherform66 2 months ago
@etherform66 oh okay that makes sense, but where do people go if they don't believe in Christ as their savior?
guzlemuzle 2 months ago
@guzlemuzle why, into the lake of fire of course. Please read some earlier posts regarding the nature of this event.
etherform66 2 months ago
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@etherform66 oh okay that makes sense, but where do people go if they don't believe in Christ as their savior?
guzlemuzle 2 months ago
@etherform66 they try to re-define death to not mean death or cease to be but they want it to mean life somewhere else
tomjamisonfrazier 2 months ago
@tomjamisonfrazier true true.. equally as disturbing is the literalisation of symbols that clearly reflect higher spiritual truthes, especially in the BOR.
etherform66 2 months ago
@guzlemuzle he came that we might have life. which supposes that we dont have it without Him
tomjamisonfrazier 2 months ago
@crazykat689 looking forward to your reply crazykay689 ... i posted an answer to your question and would appreciate a response ... lets talk this thing out bro - if you are a serious Bible student - maby your just an angry evangelical who is offended because his idol has been knocked over? who knows? no response is as good as an admission of defeat in the broad opinion.... i dont know everything but I get the feeling you are looking for truth..
etherform66 3 months ago
@etherform66 you tried to provoke me by saying i didnt answer your question because i didnt have an answer when really i just didnt want to, like Jesus, answer a question so that you can think you've cornered me and twist my words. My only Idol that I strive after is Christ. The truth that I know to be is of the bible. Both the death and resurrection had to happen for the gospel to be whole.
crazykat689 3 months ago
@etherform66 Romans 6:4-7 says....We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
crazykat689 3 months ago
@etherform66 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
His resurrection was all part of the gospel plan.
crazykat689 3 months ago
@crazykat689 im not tyring to corner you crazykat.. dont be so defensive, I just want to discuss doctrine - geez! Heres the thing - none of the verses of scripture you have quoted harmonize with contemporary evangelical theology relating to the demonic doctrine of eternal damnation. If eternal damnation were true, Christ would be eternally damned on our behalf - He is not. Nowhere is it stated that Christ died to save people from 'hell' - He died in order to destroy death and the grave (hell)
etherform66 3 months ago
@etherform66 what do you think of Mark 9:42-48? And how about Rev. 14:9-11? It seems to me that there currently is a hell, a place of incredible torment, where the wicked go to await Judgement Day. On that Day, it seems, from my reading of the scriptures, that those not written in the Lamb's book of life, will be cast into the "lake of fire", along with hell itself...is that how you read it?
andrewdreiling11 2 months ago
@andrewdreiling11 Hi Andrew.. Mark 9:42-48 ... the word 'hell' here is translated from the Greek word 'gehenna' - a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. It was the place where everything from common garbage to executed criminals were thrown. The flow of thought here is that sins of the heart, left unchecked can lead a person to commit crimes that could see him executed. In the same way that a person who contemplates robbing a bank could see himself on death row as a result of things going bad.
etherform66 2 months ago
@andrewdreiling11 The BOR is a prophetic revelation of symbols and we are told that *NO prophecy is its own exopsition* 2Pet 1:20 but must be discerned by comparing spiritual with spiritual 1 Cor 2:13 comparing a spiritual fire with a physical fire leads to error in our exegesis. What is this fire, this 'pur' (gk) .. we are baptized with 'pur' we are tried with 'pur' , we are salted with 'pur', there were toungues of 'pur' This spiritual fire must be understood in its correct context.
etherform66 2 months ago