@Enginmaster I've been here for hours offering/defending (to no purpose) evidence while hardly any was likewise given. It was as much as I suspected but I'm weary of the mental stroke job. You're too late Sheldon.
@steviej321 You'll believe the Noah account was plagiarized though there is no better evidence, by your standards, than it wasn't. Wow. What is 'proof'? It has no power over "nope". But let's forget about who's right for a minute? Doesn't it interest you that there is not one single indisputable slam dunk that exposes scripture? I mean, there is all that material to work with but...nothing.
@jg7687 There are hundreds of indisputable 'slam dunks' that expose flaws in scripture. For starters, Donkeys can't talk, the earth is not flat, the sun does not orbit the earth, all humans do not descend from two individuals, a global flood is impossible, you can't live inside a fish, there was no exodus, no Noah, no Moses.
@jg7687 "You'll believe the Noah account was plagiarized though there is no better evidence, by your standards, than it wasn't."
How about the texts in mesopotamia pre-dating the supposed flood, made out of clay (which wouldn't survive an actual global flood) detailing a similar god-warning-man of flood legend with too many parallels to ignore. That's a slam dunk, as you say, alright. It's good to learn. Too bad your imaginary friend disapproves of learning.
@jg7687 From what I've seen, all creationists are able to offer are shoddy philosophical arguments. Never any concrete evidence. Sure we atheists stick our necks out. We do by and large subscribe to evolution and we have the relatedness shown by DNA, fossils, atavisms, vestigial organs and more to show for it. You can bet your bottom dollar that you'll have a nobel prize with your name on it if you can disprove it. While you're at it, prove the supernatural and James Randi's prize is yours.
@jg7687 If your accusation of a 'cop out' refers to my comment that I do not claim to know 'how things came to be' - well that isn't a cop out, it's just the truth. You don't know either - nobody does, so how is that a 'cop out'?
@steviej321 Garbage on both fronts I'm sorry. You guys screech for explanation and greedily tear what's offered apart. But you don't have the courage to stick your own necks out there.
@jg7687 LOL, cheating. My point all along is that Genesis and the aforementioned epics are very similar and each of zero value in assessing geological history. Both are eligible subjects of study as literary history, but not literal history. Your little hypothesis on why the epic of gilgamesh is older is cheating. It's just your unreasonable apologist take. There is no evidence for this diluge.
@steviej321 You're cheating. I said the epic wasn't claimed to be historical and you said "exactly...neither is Genesis...of historical value". The question was never about value but claim. Also, I already explained why the epic is older as the Genesis account was recorded long after the events happened. You have no problem believing things (plagiarism) when they suit you.
@parsivalshorse You gave me a "little tip" for ancient document viability but gave me no example. If you knew anything you'd know that ancient historical records are extremely hard to nail down which is why I have such respect for the scribe system used by the Hebrews and the finding of the papyrus which I am satisfied is a worthy companion to the text. Btw, I know you're not a creationist but how do you explain how things came to be?
@jg7687 "You gave me a "little tip" for ancient document viability but gave me no example" - Of course I gave no examples, I made no claims based on historical evidence. Why would I need to provide examples of evidence for claims I haven't made?
@jg7687 "As far as I know the cuneiform tablets containing the epic of Gilgamesh were never claimed to be historical." Exactly my point. Neither is Genesis or anything else in any holy book of historical value. "By the way I view the epic of Gilgamesh, and all the flood legends worldwide, as evidence of an actual event as recorded by Moses long after Noah lived." You've got it backwards. The Genesis writers plagiarized from the earlier Mesopotamian tale of Gilgamesh and its flood story.
@steviej321 As far as I know the cuneiform tablets containing the epic of Gilgamesh were never claimed to be historical. By the way I view the epic, and all of the hundreds of flood legends worldwide, as evidence of an actual event as recorded by Moses long after Noah lived. This is why the gilgamesh tablets are older; the delay in the written account between the flood and Moses.
@parsivalshorse For example? I already asked for a better one in ancient history but you ignored they didn't you? Also, I must chuckle if you think I'm waiting for you to take me seriously. You believe in a fantastic cosmic accident but my offering is implausible right? Btw, correction: Simian
@jg7687 That post makes no sense - what do you mean; 'For example? I already asked for a better one in ancient history but you ignored they didn't you?'? A better what? I have no idea what you are referring to re. 'fantastic cosmic accident' - I'm not a creationist so I don't believe in a Universe magically created out of nothing.
@jg7687 Homer's epics of the Iliad and Odyssey and the Epic of Gilgamesh are just as good historical records as any holy book. If you wish to analyze a historical document with the presupposition that it's all history which says light came before stars and man was made from dust, snakes talk, witches and demons exist, and a 700 yr old man maintained 2 of every animal on a big boat, you belong in the psych ward.
@parsivalshorse You set the protocol? Please. I don't expect your acceptance, that's a given, but you're deluded if you think your denial has any bearing on what I accept. Btw, stop saying bananas. My Symbian DNA is going wild for some dinner.
@jg7687 Sure, let me leave you with a little tip that will come in handy if ever you want to be taken seriously; In order for a document to be considered as evidence for a given historical claim - it needs to make some mention of the characters and events involved in the historical claim in question.
@parsivalshorse I'm shocked (not really) that given the written oral accounts from the Torah, that Ipuwer doesn't satisfy as evidence. Btw, you and Stevie are wasting your time telling me what 'no historian' thinks. That's false. You'd both like deny my use of the Torah as a historical document. That's absurd. Please show me a better example of an ancient record.
@jg7687 So you are 'shocked' that the Ipuwer papyrus is not accepted as evidence for events that it makes no mention of? LOL, that's completely bananas buddy.
@jg7687 As I've already told you, I am not sure whether or not free will exists. You'd have to ask a popular neuro scientist like Sam Harris or VS Ramachandran. Even given that it doesn't exist, assuming for a second that this premise is true, I still believe we ought to have the judicial system and its public enforcers and should still be allowed to chastise people for doing or thinking wrongly, so that they may change their ways.
@jg7687 Treating a holy book as historical literature and mythology is absolutely fine, and completely different from looking at it like it's a verified history book, which no historian does.
@steviej321 Without will there is only chance thus guilt does not exist. Therefore the actions of the theist are innocent and you have no complaint. Btw, MaxwellSDSU's comment just now cracked me up. That was some clever writing.
@steviej321 Someone should contact the Smithsonian Institution and let them in on your knowledge of history so that they discontinue treating the bible, including the Torah which records the Exodus of the Jews, as a historical document. In contrast, you should look up their response to The Book of Mormon to get an idea of how documents that don't cut the mustard are received.
@jg7687 So you say - and yet you claimed that the Ipuwer papyrus was evidence of the exodus even though it contains no mention of any of the characters or events of exodus whatsoever. Was that a lie, or did you simply claim it as evidence of exodus by mistake?
@jg7687 You analogies are completely absurd and irrelevant. And nonexistence of guilt and free will... what? We already discussed free will earlier today. Must have missed it because I was at work at the time. Please rephrase your question coherently for me.
@steviej321 This is like when you enquire and search for the glasses perched on top of your head or when you call your wife fro the car and ask if she's seen your cell phone. Btw, you never replied about the nonexistence of guilt if the will doesn't exist. I've let you slide more than once Steve.
God just spoke to me. He said.... "Don't argue with the morons my son, or I won't be able to distinguish you from them." BAAA HA HA HA! Still... nobody willing to step up? I'll make you denounce atheism when I drive a spike through your stupid heads. I'll have you screaming for God to help you, unlike Jesus who would NOT forsake his Father. Nobody has the balls to put your lack of faith on the line? Thought not. Pansy ass wimps.
@LarryHarveyMusic If you believe "god" is speaking to you, you are in serious need of psychotherapy. Next thing you know, "god" will tell you to kill your children like Abraham and Andrea Yates.
And no, we won't call out to your god. It's a fairy tale for grown ups. Get over it.
You are clearly a sadist, sociopath, mentally deranged, and you DO need help. Seek help.
@LarryHarveyMusic Oh... I love this response. "I'll make you denounce atheism when I drive a spike through your stupid heads" For it is that logic that killed your pretty little Jesus.
@parsivalshorse As I said in the beginning, there is overwhelming historical evidence, archeological and otherwise, for the Exodus. For one, we have an unbroken historical record of these events. Our record is both a written record, recorded in our Torah, and an oral record passed on by word of mouth from parents to their children (like we do the night of Passover). See our "Historical Verification of the Torah". Rabbi Mordechi I
@jg7687 Sure - you cliam that there is overwhelming evidence for the exodus - and yet gave an example of that evidence the Ipuwer papyrus, which contains no mention of those events or characters whatsoever - clearly what you believe to be evidence includes documents that do not even mention the events that you are claiming they are evidence of.
@jg7687 Perhaps you should tell us what you think 'evidence' means? For most people a document that does not mention the characters or events in question would not be considered to be evidence for those characters or events - and yet you clearly feel differently, so what do you mean by 'evidence'?
Scientists/Atheists: We have found an abundance of evidence in our endeavors to understand our observations, now what conclusions can we draw from this?
Theists: We have our conclusions written down in this dusty old tome, now what evidence can we find that is consistent with it or that we can dishonestly twist to make it seem as if it is consistent with our conclusions?
@Atharkas I'll mention here just one piece of archeological evidence, the Ipuwer papyrus. Found in the early 19th Century in Egypt, this document describes events which parallel remarkably events described in the Book of Exodus: Violent upheavals in Egypt, starvation, drought, escape of slaves with the wealth of the Egyptians, and death throughout the land. Scholar have been scrutinizing this for millennia, you think your claims are more than scoffing?
@jg7687 You mention the Ipuwer papyrus - and yet it does not contain a single reference to Moses, the Jews or in fact any aspect of the exodus myth. How do you imagine that the Ipuwer papyrus is evidence for exodus when it makes no reference to the characters or events described in exodus?
Who's gonna step up? Who's going to let me nail you to a cross to defend your beliefs? Mybe we're all correct here. I'm thinking conservatives were created by God, and liberals eveolved from APES. Now THERE'S a theory I'd entertain. BWAAAA HA HA!
It's entertaining screwing with these tards. Atheists are always liberals. Why? They take the EASY way out of everything. It's simpler to not believe in anything. But you can bet they run to religious hospitals for free medical help, and take advantage of anything FREE provided by the churches. "archeology." LMAO! Now THERE'S a science to depend on. A bunch of publicly funded college bone diggers.
@LarryHarveyMusic What the fuck are you babbling about? You've just awoken from a head trauma induced coma, right?
It's actually more difficult to reject a belief system (religion) that you were brought up to believe than it is to stick with it.
Atheists took the harder way out, for truth's sake.
You deny science, yet you use the modern miracles of science such as a computer and MEDICINE, which was created by scientists you blithering hallow-headed imbecile.
@LarryHarveyMusic Poor sad little bible thumper. So filled with envy and wrath against those who, unlike you, took the time and effort to get an education. You see them wearing nice clothes going nice places, talking about things far beyond your understanding. You screech and screech "Talking snake! Magic wand! Dancing zombies!" to no avail. Nobody pays any attention to an ignorant moron who can barely read and write. But keep on thumpin', little savage, keep on thumpin'.
@parsivalshorse Archeology supports scripture otherwise, like the Book of Mormon, it would have been debunked long ago. In order to bark about what has yet to be uncovered, you would first have to lay aside the mountains of archeological evidence that has and hope that the unsuspecting has no knowledge of it. Btw, Jericho has long been discovered and even proof of the Exodus though the Egyptians did not rush to record the victorious departure of their slaves.
@jg7687 Scripture was debnked long ago buddy, there is no evidence whatsoever for the existance of Moses or the Exodus, Jericho was not even occupied and Bethlehem did not even exist at the time. In the exodus it claims that the Jews fled to Canaan - well Canaan was an Egyptian province, so apparently they fled Egypt and ran to Egypt.
@jg7687 "Archeology supports scripture..." Silly little bible thumper. Magic wands don't part oceans, really old guys don't build really big boats (what about all the plants and trees? They missed the boat!), goats ain't got spells in 'em, people don't live in fish, zombies don't leap out of graves and do the twist, and nobody's seen yer satyrs, dragons or unicorns. And how 'bout them witches!?! Got any photos of them witches? Them demons? So much for your silly fairy tales.
@junjunjun233 As parsival said. Why is it so difficult for non-atheists to fathom how atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive?
Please explain to me how it is impossible to simultaneously say "I don't think it is knowable, nor is it known for sure, that a god exists" as "I don't believe a god exists".
The same can be done with theism. If you don't claim to know for a fact that god exists, but you believe that it does, you are an agnostic theist.
@LarryHarveyMusic Let me rehash your argument articulately for everyone else in case they missed it. I will now pretend to be you:
"I am ASSuming that Jesus existed in the first place. Next, I am ASSuming that Jesus was absolutely correct that this "god" exists. Therefore, god exists! Yay!!! I've proven God exists!!!"
That's your argument. If you don't feel utterly ashamed then you are inhumanly retarded beyond all repair.
@LarryHarveyMusic You are unreasonably stupid and you have no sense of logic within you at all. How about you show us the science that proves there IS a god in the first place, or that proves all other gods wrong, or proves that mermaids don't exist? See how inane your logic is? And Jesus knew god exists, therefore god exists? What the fuck? Clearly you've just awoken from some sort of head trauma-induced coma as you're babbling nonsense. Come back when you have an IQ over room temperature.
Te PROOF that there is a God? Jesus said so. And he KNEW the TRUTH, as did His apostles. Any one of them could have been SPARED the torture and death of Crucifixion. All they had to do was denounce God. Yet none did. I doubt ANY Atheist would die on the cross rather than admit God lives and I'll gladly put any of you to the test. For 2,000 years atheists had the chance to change history and deny Christ ever existed, but NONE of them did. So there's your proof ya pussies.
@233259 There you go ASSuming . Who said I was a Christian? Man. There is no cure for willful ignorance. If I was defending paraplegics you'd swear I was handicapped, LOL.
@LarryHarveyMusic If you believe in Christ - then you are a Christian, furthermore if you are surprised when people assume you are a Christian when you are talking about your belief in Christ - then you are a moron.
@233259 Muslims and jews may also reference the bible or qoute the occasional passage, I am not a christian but i beleive in the christian God and the prophets.I believe in the one God who is the God of the jews christians and muslims.
@LarryHarveyMusic "For 2,000 years atheists had the chance to change history and deny Christ ever existed" - You got that backwards buddy - for 2000 years no good evidence that Jesus even existed has ever turned up, and much of the bible (the exodus, Jericho, genesis etc) has been contradicted by archeology.
The problem with some atheist is that they are very conclusive/"round off mentality" that they dismissed accounts even with possible or higher probabilistic value.
Even Dawkins (famous athiest)with all the knowledge/exp is slowly opening up and becoming an AGNOSTIC.
@junjunjun233 No, he's not. What he said about not being 100% certain God doesn't exist is the same thing he said in The God Delusion. He also says the same thing about Leprechauns and fairies.
@233259 Actually he just gave it a percentage on the topic of ID (not God) in a probabilistic sense using the darwinian principle (Possibility of Advanced Civilization). He only compared leprechauns and faries to god of which he clearly dismisses and improvable.
And yes! He does sound agnostic on certain topics not necessarily god.
@PorkFrog I don't know why a child cannot be humble in a relationship with it's Father. The bible conveys His desire that we seek Him and that He first loved us. Also, He is described as 'He' and as "Our Father".
@jg7687 ''Also, He is described as 'He' and as "Our Father".''
that doesn't answer my question--why would 'God' be make? What makes him a him?
Now per Taoist ideas, some sex-free things are described as male or female, but if 'God' is uncreated and eternal[therefore sex would be irrelevant to such a being], sexual designation must have a reason
Science would dictate that humans are so insignificant in knowledge of the universe and beyond, that anyone who professes knowing enough to conclude there is no supreme being, is a retard.
@LarryHarveyMusic ''Science would dictate that humans are so insignificant in knowledge of the universe and beyond, that anyone who professes knowing enough to conclude there is no supreme being, is a retard.''
@LarryHarveyMusic The Universe is all known and unknown space there is nothing beyond it. I would be open to the concept of a god, It's just that the availiable evidence seems to suggest that it is a cosmic coincidence without any deep philosophical reason
@TheAmazingMrBruce yeah but to have this cosmic coincedence does something have to cause it? If life is an accident who or what slipped up? I am open to the idea but it still leaves something missing.I guess everything is mind before matter so one scientific explanation could be that someone or some thing willed the universe into existance.If we create life in a lab it could also indictae that it takes intelligence to create life.maybe us philosphising shows a philosophy
@LarryHarveyMusic There are few people who do conclude that (they are idiots), even Richard Dawkins says that he doesn't know there isn't a supreme being but, like many others, i believe that the religious belief systems are all just fabricated by humans (quite obviously) , which doesn't mean i dismiss a supreme being because there is no evidence countering that, nor other theories of our origin. What theists do is fill what science can't tell you with bullshit, which is equally as retarded.
@spore0808- How would you know if the 'bullshit' you speak of is in fact truth if you can't prove it with science? Actually I'd need more info about what religions you are making reference to for me to gain a better understanding.
@LarryHarveyMusic but currently science gives all the answers we know, religion gives ZERO. So if you believe religion over science then your a retard.
@boxxer221 NO. The RETARDS are the ones who claim they KNOW everything there is to know. SHOW ME the science which PROVES there's no God. You can't! There is none so stop you mindless blathering.
There is no proof that he exists. There is no proof that there isn't an invisible and flying pony in my room. Your comment is invalid the most overused comment religious people use.
@LarryHarveyMusic No the retard is you because your arguing about something i didn't even say in the first place, stop believing in stuff you have no evidence for and you might get further in life.
@steviej321 I'd understand better if you admitted that science points out how little we know. An honest scientist would concede that we are playing it by ear and just along for the ride barely scratching the surface of knowledge. What is known is torn down, restructured and re-known. I'm not waiting for them to acknowledge that it takes their breath away and I'm ignoring the confidence among them.
@boxxer221 EXACTLY! And you can't prove it. There are trillions of FACTS within all the libraries just ere on Earth on subjects YOU don't know anything about. That doesn't mean they aren't true cuz one little pissant had no awareness of them.
@PorkFrog Your humility argument seems for the sake of argument. The bible says that God created us to have a personal relationship with Him. An eternally distant God is unscriptural. Btw, I'm not knocking your 25 years of study.
@jg7687 If he wants a personal relationship why doesn't he reveal himself or spend time with his creation, rather than allow us to kill each other in his name?
I think it's funny that the Christians appear to be flagging all the reasoned comments as "spam." I just unflagged 12 logical responses to theists comments. When you can't fight with logic, you just make it go away, huh???
"I think it's funny that the Christians appear to be flagging all the reasoned comments as "spam"--Another assumption. In reality, both theists and atheists get flagged on here....a lot. Some asshole keeps flagging everyone. And no is afraid of your logic. There are theists here [including myself] who don't feel the need to run from your anti-God stance. We ain't scared of ya.
@PorkFrog Since when is accuracy sexist? Reality operates apart from/despite wishful thinking and is only tampered with by those that entertain mind over matter hopefulness.
@jg7687 I didn't write well[preoccupied] but I meant to say most everyone defines 'God' as beyond the senses, and evidence is dependent on the senses, so that makes 'God' unfalsifiable
Now if you entertain 'God' in the philosophical sense, that's different
I'm assuming your take is that 'God' is knowable if approached humbly, and 'reveals' or allows you to know?
[I'm trying to write without referring to 'God' as 'he', I know it's traditional, but I find it sexist]
@jg7687 It is very interesting to me that humility is seen as a key element in many religious traditions to understanding 'God'
The Buddha prized it[Buddhism concerns overcoming the self],the bible says that humility is a key trait in a prophet['Moses was the most humble of men' etc] even before JC started washing feet
this creates a problem,because when a person speaks about 'God' as if he knows him-what's humble about that?
'I know the great mystery of the universe so listen to me'?
@steviej321 Without will there is only chance and thus guilt doesn't exist. Therefore all the actions of theists are innocent and you have no complaint. Also, scripture speaks pretty plainly and doesn't suffer from the vague, burdensome offerings of evolutionary explanations.
@steviej321 If evolution were true then we are related to chimps, hence the 'evolved monkeys' comment. I like to laugh a little but not personally at you. Also, where does the hydrogen and oxygen come from for your stew? And, are you saying that God can't grant free will because of his omniscient, omnipresent nature? You'd chastise Him even more as a tyrant if it were not so. You have choice therefore there is judgement for both of us soon.
@jg7687 What I didn't get was the "give creation a try" part.
Base elements like hydrogen and oxygen were probably always present in the universe. Stars blow many elements into distant reaches of outer space when they supernova. In addition to that, we've found several meteorites that have fallen onto Earth that contain elements and amino acids.
"Evolution is unproven and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable."
Romans 1:22-23 Though claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images that looked like mortal human beings, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles.
@PorkFrog Who said God was beyond empiricism to anyone? Was ID supposed to give other options? Why don't you aim the same line of query at 'nature'. I believe in science, but children are playing with it.
@jg7687 'Who said God was beyond empiricism to anyone?'
most everyone
'Was ID supposed to give other options?'
'supposed to'? It was just an observation how ID says look, this is designed', but never says, 'You can tell because if it wasn't designed, it would be like this'
'' Why don't you aim the same line of query at 'nature'.''
I'm not sure what you mean but I prolly already have-I've been thing about this for over 25 years since I was a young man
@PorkFrog Design is observable and ignored. Chaos is proclaimed to have brought order from a statistically impossible stew birthed from nothing. It takes more faith to be an atheist. Btw, if God can be manifested by special revelation, then He wouldn't be beyond empiricism.
@jg7687 Bad, stupid, horrible design is also observable and is ignored in both the cosmos and in life on Earth. And what makes you say that the "stew" was statistically impossible? Or that it was birthed from nothing? The "stew" was a puddle or small body of water in the Earth billions of years ago.
You really don't know what you are talking about jg, do you? Why do you talk out of your ass?
@jg7687 '.Btw, if God can be manifested by special revelation, then He wouldn't be beyond empiricism.'
no, if 'God' only does the special revelation thing at will, he isn't subject to empiricism to everybody
'Design is observable and ignored.'
The idea of design is a suggestion that things could be otherwise.Could they be?The lungs/heart hook-up is very intricate,but could they have developed in another way?
That's one thing that ID never does is detail another way things coulda been
@jg7687 ID is sorta like when you have one of those good days when everything falls into place-you get up late, but then traffic is light, so you're on time. You get the wrong mail, so you when you finally run into the cutie across the hall later that night, you have an excuse to talk to her, and hit it off. You get fired, but then you meet someone thru a friend that hooks you up with a much better job.
Many people say 'stuff happens for a reason', but maybe stuff just happens
I'm also an atheist as well and one thing I'd sure love to do to other atheists with this typical type of modern age arrogant elitist attitude that this woman has is to royally fucking smack them right in the mouth.
"I'm not a believer because I'm so much better than those of you who are," is essentially what's she's saying.
@steviej321 Electric signal decide what we decide? Then the penal system is monstrous. Isn't not believing without evidence the same as 'seeing is believing'?
@jg7687 You'd have to talk to a neuro scientist like Sam Harris.
Human free will may not even exist. And even if it does exist, that doesn't imply an overlooking deity because then we are able to choose actions that would go against his will, and the same actions if the deity doesn't exist.
@GrayGhost30 Science itself points out that we know so little. But 'seeing is believing' is still uttered despite the fact that the human will cannot be seen or explained by science yet it's existence is known.
@jg7687 "Will" doesn't exist in physical form. It is only manifested through the actions of people and other sentient life forms.
In the deeper sense, will is nothing more than a thought or group of thoughts, produced by electric signals from your brain decided upon your surroundings and circumstances.
And for the record, I don't adhere to and I don't believe most atheists adhere to the mantra of "seeing is believing".
@Atharkas I know your joking, but feigning ignorance won't sweep away/remove anything. When He was murdered, He came back. What can you do with that kind of victory?
@TucsonDave111 I listened, prayed and chose what demonstrated was not man made. I looked for love and found it was near. I know you'd like to think everyone approaches this with ignorance. Btw, I don't concede, as some do, that there is no evidence. I concede that in light of all the evidence, it is pointless to try to convince anyone of it.
For example, if a guy said 'Invisible creatures are attacking us and making us cough' in about 1432, one might have said 'You're crackers-there's no evidence of that'. THERE was evidence tho-the cough itself is evidence-there was just no way at that time to see little invisible beasties. So that is what we mean when we say 'no evidence'.
{C} When I have this argument, usually it ends up here: 'If 'God' interacted with matter we could see footprints/effects and measure them'. And then I say 'evidence has to be recognized as such and causality must be properly traced. To say there is no evidence of 'God' is to say that we have properly quantified and categorized all natural phenomena.
so this is what is meant by 'there is no evidence'-'there is no evidence available to us or discernible by us at this time'
@jg7687 ''I don't concede, as some do, that there is no evidence.'' Well evidence is based on the senses, and if 'God' is beyond empiricism{usually defined as can't be seen, touched, heard etc, in an everyday sort of way without special revelation} the evidence would have to be by effects.
the things you DONT SEE however are those you believe they exist . but ONLY after you believe in the Messenger from GOD to be true and not a LIAR. and GOD gives him the proofs which are the Miracles that a human cant do... the Miracle of Islam is the holy Quran GOD words in speech. word by word. not from man. has signs still appearing till today.
the other Miracles of the prophet people can claim "we didnt see them" the holy Quran is here
Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
I just figured it out! Atheist are here to unit all Judeo-christians religions!
abnerely 1 hour ago
@parsivalshorse Unless I'm telling the truth. Then I can't be removed anyway. Have you asked yourself what my goal is?
jg7687 2 hours ago
@jg7687 Buddy you aren't even making sense, your responses do not even relate to the posts they resond to.
parsivalshorse 2 hours ago
Comment removed
fatgirlemptyfridge 1 hour ago
@Enginmaster Too late again. Scroll back. Gilgamesh/cuneiform it's been covered.
jg7687 2 hours ago
@parsivalshorse All I hear is "nope can't be". The supernatura, like the biblical text, has never been disproven. Denial works both ways.
jg7687 2 hours ago
@jg7687 You have a talent for evasion, and little else.
parsivalshorse 2 hours ago
OUCH OUCH OUCH hahaha what dumbasses
MagicCat3 3 hours ago
@Enginmaster I've been here for hours offering/defending (to no purpose) evidence while hardly any was likewise given. It was as much as I suspected but I'm weary of the mental stroke job. You're too late Sheldon.
jg7687 3 hours ago
@steviej321 You'll believe the Noah account was plagiarized though there is no better evidence, by your standards, than it wasn't. Wow. What is 'proof'? It has no power over "nope". But let's forget about who's right for a minute? Doesn't it interest you that there is not one single indisputable slam dunk that exposes scripture? I mean, there is all that material to work with but...nothing.
jg7687 3 hours ago
@jg7687 There are hundreds of indisputable 'slam dunks' that expose flaws in scripture. For starters, Donkeys can't talk, the earth is not flat, the sun does not orbit the earth, all humans do not descend from two individuals, a global flood is impossible, you can't live inside a fish, there was no exodus, no Noah, no Moses.
parsivalshorse 3 hours ago
@jg7687 "You'll believe the Noah account was plagiarized though there is no better evidence, by your standards, than it wasn't."
How about the texts in mesopotamia pre-dating the supposed flood, made out of clay (which wouldn't survive an actual global flood) detailing a similar god-warning-man of flood legend with too many parallels to ignore. That's a slam dunk, as you say, alright. It's good to learn. Too bad your imaginary friend disapproves of learning.
Enginmaster 3 hours ago
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@jg7687 From what I've seen, all creationists are able to offer are shoddy philosophical arguments. Never any concrete evidence. Sure we atheists stick our necks out. We do by and large subscribe to evolution and we have the relatedness shown by DNA, fossils, atavisms, vestigial organs and more to show for it. You can bet your bottom dollar that you'll have a nobel prize with your name on it if you can disprove it. While you're at it, prove the supernatural and James Randi's prize is yours.
steviej321 3 hours ago
@parsivalshorse What a cop out.
jg7687 4 hours ago
@jg7687 What cop-out? What are you talking about - I'm willing to discuss any evidence or challenge you wish to discuss?
parsivalshorse 3 hours ago
@jg7687 If your accusation of a 'cop out' refers to my comment that I do not claim to know 'how things came to be' - well that isn't a cop out, it's just the truth. You don't know either - nobody does, so how is that a 'cop out'?
parsivalshorse 3 hours ago
@steviej321 Garbage on both fronts I'm sorry. You guys screech for explanation and greedily tear what's offered apart. But you don't have the courage to stick your own necks out there.
jg7687 4 hours ago
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@jg7687 LOL, cheating. My point all along is that Genesis and the aforementioned epics are very similar and each of zero value in assessing geological history. Both are eligible subjects of study as literary history, but not literal history. Your little hypothesis on why the epic of gilgamesh is older is cheating. It's just your unreasonable apologist take. There is no evidence for this diluge.
steviej321 4 hours ago
@steviej321 You're cheating. I said the epic wasn't claimed to be historical and you said "exactly...neither is Genesis...of historical value". The question was never about value but claim. Also, I already explained why the epic is older as the Genesis account was recorded long after the events happened. You have no problem believing things (plagiarism) when they suit you.
jg7687 5 hours ago
@parsivalshorse You gave me a "little tip" for ancient document viability but gave me no example. If you knew anything you'd know that ancient historical records are extremely hard to nail down which is why I have such respect for the scribe system used by the Hebrews and the finding of the papyrus which I am satisfied is a worthy companion to the text. Btw, I know you're not a creationist but how do you explain how things came to be?
jg7687 5 hours ago
@jg7687 "You gave me a "little tip" for ancient document viability but gave me no example" - Of course I gave no examples, I made no claims based on historical evidence. Why would I need to provide examples of evidence for claims I haven't made?
How do I explain how things came to be? I don't.
parsivalshorse 4 hours ago
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@jg7687 "As far as I know the cuneiform tablets containing the epic of Gilgamesh were never claimed to be historical." Exactly my point. Neither is Genesis or anything else in any holy book of historical value. "By the way I view the epic of Gilgamesh, and all the flood legends worldwide, as evidence of an actual event as recorded by Moses long after Noah lived." You've got it backwards. The Genesis writers plagiarized from the earlier Mesopotamian tale of Gilgamesh and its flood story.
steviej321 5 hours ago
@steviej321 As far as I know the cuneiform tablets containing the epic of Gilgamesh were never claimed to be historical. By the way I view the epic, and all of the hundreds of flood legends worldwide, as evidence of an actual event as recorded by Moses long after Noah lived. This is why the gilgamesh tablets are older; the delay in the written account between the flood and Moses.
jg7687 5 hours ago
@parsivalshorse For example? I already asked for a better one in ancient history but you ignored they didn't you? Also, I must chuckle if you think I'm waiting for you to take me seriously. You believe in a fantastic cosmic accident but my offering is implausible right? Btw, correction: Simian
jg7687 5 hours ago
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@jg7687 That post makes no sense - what do you mean; 'For example? I already asked for a better one in ancient history but you ignored they didn't you?'? A better what? I have no idea what you are referring to re. 'fantastic cosmic accident' - I'm not a creationist so I don't believe in a Universe magically created out of nothing.
parsivalshorse 5 hours ago
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@jg7687 Homer's epics of the Iliad and Odyssey and the Epic of Gilgamesh are just as good historical records as any holy book. If you wish to analyze a historical document with the presupposition that it's all history which says light came before stars and man was made from dust, snakes talk, witches and demons exist, and a 700 yr old man maintained 2 of every animal on a big boat, you belong in the psych ward.
steviej321 6 hours ago
@parsivalshorse You set the protocol? Please. I don't expect your acceptance, that's a given, but you're deluded if you think your denial has any bearing on what I accept. Btw, stop saying bananas. My Symbian DNA is going wild for some dinner.
jg7687 6 hours ago
@jg7687 Sure, let me leave you with a little tip that will come in handy if ever you want to be taken seriously; In order for a document to be considered as evidence for a given historical claim - it needs to make some mention of the characters and events involved in the historical claim in question.
parsivalshorse 6 hours ago
@parsivalshorse I'm shocked (not really) that given the written oral accounts from the Torah, that Ipuwer doesn't satisfy as evidence. Btw, you and Stevie are wasting your time telling me what 'no historian' thinks. That's false. You'd both like deny my use of the Torah as a historical document. That's absurd. Please show me a better example of an ancient record.
jg7687 6 hours ago
@jg7687 So you are 'shocked' that the Ipuwer papyrus is not accepted as evidence for events that it makes no mention of? LOL, that's completely bananas buddy.
parsivalshorse 6 hours ago
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@jg7687 As I've already told you, I am not sure whether or not free will exists. You'd have to ask a popular neuro scientist like Sam Harris or VS Ramachandran. Even given that it doesn't exist, assuming for a second that this premise is true, I still believe we ought to have the judicial system and its public enforcers and should still be allowed to chastise people for doing or thinking wrongly, so that they may change their ways.
steviej321 6 hours ago
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@jg7687 Treating a holy book as historical literature and mythology is absolutely fine, and completely different from looking at it like it's a verified history book, which no historian does.
steviej321 6 hours ago
@steviej321 Without will there is only chance thus guilt does not exist. Therefore the actions of the theist are innocent and you have no complaint. Btw, MaxwellSDSU's comment just now cracked me up. That was some clever writing.
jg7687 6 hours ago
@steviej321 Someone should contact the Smithsonian Institution and let them in on your knowledge of history so that they discontinue treating the bible, including the Torah which records the Exodus of the Jews, as a historical document. In contrast, you should look up their response to The Book of Mormon to get an idea of how documents that don't cut the mustard are received.
jg7687 6 hours ago
@jg7687 So you say - and yet you claimed that the Ipuwer papyrus was evidence of the exodus even though it contains no mention of any of the characters or events of exodus whatsoever. Was that a lie, or did you simply claim it as evidence of exodus by mistake?
parsivalshorse 6 hours ago
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@jg7687 You analogies are completely absurd and irrelevant. And nonexistence of guilt and free will... what? We already discussed free will earlier today. Must have missed it because I was at work at the time. Please rephrase your question coherently for me.
steviej321 7 hours ago
@steviej321 This is like when you enquire and search for the glasses perched on top of your head or when you call your wife fro the car and ask if she's seen your cell phone. Btw, you never replied about the nonexistence of guilt if the will doesn't exist. I've let you slide more than once Steve.
jg7687 7 hours ago
God just spoke to me. He said.... "Don't argue with the morons my son, or I won't be able to distinguish you from them." BAAA HA HA HA! Still... nobody willing to step up? I'll make you denounce atheism when I drive a spike through your stupid heads. I'll have you screaming for God to help you, unlike Jesus who would NOT forsake his Father. Nobody has the balls to put your lack of faith on the line? Thought not. Pansy ass wimps.
LarryHarveyMusic 7 hours ago
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@LarryHarveyMusic If you believe "god" is speaking to you, you are in serious need of psychotherapy. Next thing you know, "god" will tell you to kill your children like Abraham and Andrea Yates.
And no, we won't call out to your god. It's a fairy tale for grown ups. Get over it.
You are clearly a sadist, sociopath, mentally deranged, and you DO need help. Seek help.
steviej321 7 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic
Given the age listed in your Youtube profile:
1) One of your kids/grandchildren was posting on your Youtube account
2) You were drunk and posting
3) You have the spoken discourse skills of someone in Junior High School.
...I hope for your sake the answer is #1 or #2.
MaxwellSDSU 6 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic Oh... I love this response. "I'll make you denounce atheism when I drive a spike through your stupid heads" For it is that logic that killed your pretty little Jesus.
adamx20 6 hours ago
@parsivalshorse As I said in the beginning, there is overwhelming historical evidence, archeological and otherwise, for the Exodus. For one, we have an unbroken historical record of these events. Our record is both a written record, recorded in our Torah, and an oral record passed on by word of mouth from parents to their children (like we do the night of Passover). See our "Historical Verification of the Torah". Rabbi Mordechi I
jg7687 7 hours ago
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@jg7687 No modern historian believes the Exodus happened, or that there were ever Jewish slaves captured to work in Egypt.
steviej321 7 hours ago
@jg7687 Sure - you cliam that there is overwhelming evidence for the exodus - and yet gave an example of that evidence the Ipuwer papyrus, which contains no mention of those events or characters whatsoever - clearly what you believe to be evidence includes documents that do not even mention the events that you are claiming they are evidence of.
parsivalshorse 6 hours ago
@jg7687 Perhaps you should tell us what you think 'evidence' means? For most people a document that does not mention the characters or events in question would not be considered to be evidence for those characters or events - and yet you clearly feel differently, so what do you mean by 'evidence'?
parsivalshorse 6 hours ago
Like shooting fish in a barrel...
awelux 7 hours ago
@steviej321 Now you want evidence from me after what you just did?
jg7687 7 hours ago
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@jg7687 Yes, I would love evidence of creationism. I've been asking creationists for such evidence for months, to no avail.
steviej321 7 hours ago
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@jg7687 Even the Jews say Exodus was a non-event and Moses was a mythical story....you Tennessee Crazy.
Jatz071 7 hours ago
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Scientists/Atheists: We have found an abundance of evidence in our endeavors to understand our observations, now what conclusions can we draw from this?
Theists: We have our conclusions written down in this dusty old tome, now what evidence can we find that is consistent with it or that we can dishonestly twist to make it seem as if it is consistent with our conclusions?
steviej321 7 hours ago
@freethinker801 But we are related to chimpanzees and everything started a screaming piece of space debris? Easy isn't it? That's magic.
jg7687 7 hours ago
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@jg7687 Please explain how that equates to magic. These are documented, observed facts, not magic.
If you can show it is magic you've got a nobel prize with your name on it.
steviej321 7 hours ago 2
@steviej321 If that had been my offering instead of yours, you would have asked for evidence.
jg7687 8 hours ago
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@jg7687 No, I don't ask for evidence that something didn't happen or doesn't exist if there isn't any known evidence that it did.
That's what theists do.
steviej321 8 hours ago
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steviej321 7 hours ago
@Atharkas I'll mention here just one piece of archeological evidence, the Ipuwer papyrus. Found in the early 19th Century in Egypt, this document describes events which parallel remarkably events described in the Book of Exodus: Violent upheavals in Egypt, starvation, drought, escape of slaves with the wealth of the Egyptians, and death throughout the land. Scholar have been scrutinizing this for millennia, you think your claims are more than scoffing?
jg7687 8 hours ago
@jg7687 You mention the Ipuwer papyrus - and yet it does not contain a single reference to Moses, the Jews or in fact any aspect of the exodus myth. How do you imagine that the Ipuwer papyrus is evidence for exodus when it makes no reference to the characters or events described in exodus?
parsivalshorse 8 hours ago
Who's gonna step up? Who's going to let me nail you to a cross to defend your beliefs? Mybe we're all correct here. I'm thinking conservatives were created by God, and liberals eveolved from APES. Now THERE'S a theory I'd entertain. BWAAAA HA HA!
LarryHarveyMusic 8 hours ago
It's entertaining screwing with these tards. Atheists are always liberals. Why? They take the EASY way out of everything. It's simpler to not believe in anything. But you can bet they run to religious hospitals for free medical help, and take advantage of anything FREE provided by the churches. "archeology." LMAO! Now THERE'S a science to depend on. A bunch of publicly funded college bone diggers.
LarryHarveyMusic 8 hours ago
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@LarryHarveyMusic What the fuck are you babbling about? You've just awoken from a head trauma induced coma, right?
It's actually more difficult to reject a belief system (religion) that you were brought up to believe than it is to stick with it.
Atheists took the harder way out, for truth's sake.
You deny science, yet you use the modern miracles of science such as a computer and MEDICINE, which was created by scientists you blithering hallow-headed imbecile.
steviej321 8 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic Poor sad little bible thumper. So filled with envy and wrath against those who, unlike you, took the time and effort to get an education. You see them wearing nice clothes going nice places, talking about things far beyond your understanding. You screech and screech "Talking snake! Magic wand! Dancing zombies!" to no avail. Nobody pays any attention to an ignorant moron who can barely read and write. But keep on thumpin', little savage, keep on thumpin'.
freethinker801 7 hours ago
@parsivalshorse Archeology supports scripture otherwise, like the Book of Mormon, it would have been debunked long ago. In order to bark about what has yet to be uncovered, you would first have to lay aside the mountains of archeological evidence that has and hope that the unsuspecting has no knowledge of it. Btw, Jericho has long been discovered and even proof of the Exodus though the Egyptians did not rush to record the victorious departure of their slaves.
jg7687 8 hours ago
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steviej321 8 hours ago
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@jg7687 There WERE NO Jewish slaves in Egypt, ever. The Exodus is a fabricated historical event in the bible.
steviej321 8 hours ago
@jg7687
"otherwise, like the Book of Mormon, it would have been debunked long ago."
The scriptures have been been debunked since long ago. Archeology shows the Israelite never went to egypt.
Atharkas 8 hours ago
@jg7687 Scripture was debnked long ago buddy, there is no evidence whatsoever for the existance of Moses or the Exodus, Jericho was not even occupied and Bethlehem did not even exist at the time. In the exodus it claims that the Jews fled to Canaan - well Canaan was an Egyptian province, so apparently they fled Egypt and ran to Egypt.
parsivalshorse 8 hours ago
@jg7687 "Archeology supports scripture..." Silly little bible thumper. Magic wands don't part oceans, really old guys don't build really big boats (what about all the plants and trees? They missed the boat!), goats ain't got spells in 'em, people don't live in fish, zombies don't leap out of graves and do the twist, and nobody's seen yer satyrs, dragons or unicorns. And how 'bout them witches!?! Got any photos of them witches? Them demons? So much for your silly fairy tales.
freethinker801 8 hours ago
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@junjunjun233 As parsival said. Why is it so difficult for non-atheists to fathom how atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive?
Please explain to me how it is impossible to simultaneously say "I don't think it is knowable, nor is it known for sure, that a god exists" as "I don't believe a god exists".
The same can be done with theism. If you don't claim to know for a fact that god exists, but you believe that it does, you are an agnostic theist.
steviej321 8 hours ago
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@LarryHarveyMusic Let me rehash your argument articulately for everyone else in case they missed it. I will now pretend to be you:
"I am ASSuming that Jesus existed in the first place. Next, I am ASSuming that Jesus was absolutely correct that this "god" exists. Therefore, god exists! Yay!!! I've proven God exists!!!"
That's your argument. If you don't feel utterly ashamed then you are inhumanly retarded beyond all repair.
steviej321 8 hours ago
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@LarryHarveyMusic You are unreasonably stupid and you have no sense of logic within you at all. How about you show us the science that proves there IS a god in the first place, or that proves all other gods wrong, or proves that mermaids don't exist? See how inane your logic is? And Jesus knew god exists, therefore god exists? What the fuck? Clearly you've just awoken from some sort of head trauma-induced coma as you're babbling nonsense. Come back when you have an IQ over room temperature.
steviej321 9 hours ago
...lol anti-climatic.
eviethecyborg 9 hours ago
You go girl! Rofl!
worros246 9 hours ago
@PorkFrog I'm arguing that it's not sexist to call Him "He". You brought up sex not me.
jg7687 9 hours ago
Te PROOF that there is a God? Jesus said so. And he KNEW the TRUTH, as did His apostles. Any one of them could have been SPARED the torture and death of Crucifixion. All they had to do was denounce God. Yet none did. I doubt ANY Atheist would die on the cross rather than admit God lives and I'll gladly put any of you to the test. For 2,000 years atheists had the chance to change history and deny Christ ever existed, but NONE of them did. So there's your proof ya pussies.
LarryHarveyMusic 10 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic lol and calling people pussies sounds really Christ-like. lol
233259 10 hours ago
@233259 There you go ASSuming . Who said I was a Christian? Man. There is no cure for willful ignorance. If I was defending paraplegics you'd swear I was handicapped, LOL.
LarryHarveyMusic 9 hours ago
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@LarryHarveyMusic "There is no cure for willful ignorance."
He didn't display willful ignorance. Do you even know what that means?
But yeah, you said it! Willful ignorance. It's tragic and there's probably no cure for it.
That said, go at least attempt to cure yourself of it at once.
steviej321 9 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic If you believe in Christ - then you are a Christian, furthermore if you are surprised when people assume you are a Christian when you are talking about your belief in Christ - then you are a moron.
parsivalshorse 8 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic lol Silly me, I just "ASSumed" that when you talked about there being proof of the Bible, you were a Christian.
233259 8 hours ago
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@233259 Muslims and jews may also reference the bible or qoute the occasional passage, I am not a christian but i beleive in the christian God and the prophets.I believe in the one God who is the God of the jews christians and muslims.
pinball281 8 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic I'm so embarrassed for you. This pathetic circular argument is all you have? I mean besides name calling.
If you god existed and your religion was real, wouldn't it be easy to defend with evidence, logic and reason?
You've really made a great case for the woman on the video.
You could be the poster child for Blind Faith.
TucsonDave111 9 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic "For 2,000 years atheists had the chance to change history and deny Christ ever existed" - You got that backwards buddy - for 2000 years no good evidence that Jesus even existed has ever turned up, and much of the bible (the exodus, Jericho, genesis etc) has been contradicted by archeology.
parsivalshorse 8 hours ago
The problem with some atheist is that they are very conclusive/"round off mentality" that they dismissed accounts even with possible or higher probabilistic value.
Even Dawkins (famous athiest)with all the knowledge/exp is slowly opening up and becoming an AGNOSTIC.
junjunjun233 11 hours ago
@junjunjun233 No, he's not. What he said about not being 100% certain God doesn't exist is the same thing he said in The God Delusion. He also says the same thing about Leprechauns and fairies.
233259 10 hours ago
@233259 Actually he just gave it a percentage on the topic of ID (not God) in a probabilistic sense using the darwinian principle (Possibility of Advanced Civilization). He only compared leprechauns and faries to god of which he clearly dismisses and improvable.
And yes! He does sound agnostic on certain topics not necessarily god.
junjunjun233 10 hours ago
@junjunjun233 Most atheists are agnostic - Dawkins is not 'becoming' agnostic, he was agnostic from the start, as are most atheists.
parsivalshorse 8 hours ago
@boxxer221 Be honest, science gives you some answers and some conjecture and the bible gives you answers you dismiss.
jg7687 11 hours ago
Some people just watched "science" and lose their ability to question "science".
junjunjun233 11 hours ago
@PorkFrog I don't know why a child cannot be humble in a relationship with it's Father. The bible conveys His desire that we seek Him and that He first loved us. Also, He is described as 'He' and as "Our Father".
jg7687 11 hours ago
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@jg7687 ''Also, He is described as 'He' and as "Our Father".''
that doesn't answer my question--why would 'God' be make? What makes him a him?
Now per Taoist ideas, some sex-free things are described as male or female, but if 'God' is uncreated and eternal[therefore sex would be irrelevant to such a being], sexual designation must have a reason
PorkFrog 11 hours ago
@TheAmazingMrBruce That made me chuckle. But, how are we on the same team?
jg7687 12 hours ago
I'm in love with that woman.
DinoAgent69 12 hours ago
Science would dictate that humans are so insignificant in knowledge of the universe and beyond, that anyone who professes knowing enough to conclude there is no supreme being, is a retard.
LarryHarveyMusic 12 hours ago
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@LarryHarveyMusic ''Science would dictate that humans are so insignificant in knowledge of the universe and beyond, that anyone who professes knowing enough to conclude there is no supreme being, is a retard.''
that sword you just drew cuts both ways
PorkFrog 12 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic The Universe is all known and unknown space there is nothing beyond it. I would be open to the concept of a god, It's just that the availiable evidence seems to suggest that it is a cosmic coincidence without any deep philosophical reason
TheAmazingMrBruce 12 hours ago
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@TheAmazingMrBruce yeah but to have this cosmic coincedence does something have to cause it? If life is an accident who or what slipped up? I am open to the idea but it still leaves something missing.I guess everything is mind before matter so one scientific explanation could be that someone or some thing willed the universe into existance.If we create life in a lab it could also indictae that it takes intelligence to create life.maybe us philosphising shows a philosophy
pinball281 12 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic There are few people who do conclude that (they are idiots), even Richard Dawkins says that he doesn't know there isn't a supreme being but, like many others, i believe that the religious belief systems are all just fabricated by humans (quite obviously) , which doesn't mean i dismiss a supreme being because there is no evidence countering that, nor other theories of our origin. What theists do is fill what science can't tell you with bullshit, which is equally as retarded.
spore0808 11 hours ago
@spore0808- How would you know if the 'bullshit' you speak of is in fact truth if you can't prove it with science? Actually I'd need more info about what religions you are making reference to for me to gain a better understanding.
shebzydon 11 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic Just because I can't prove a god doesn't exist doesn't therefore mean a god EXISTS
boxxer221 11 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic but currently science gives all the answers we know, religion gives ZERO. So if you believe religion over science then your a retard.
boxxer221 11 hours ago
@boxxer221 NO. The RETARDS are the ones who claim they KNOW everything there is to know. SHOW ME the science which PROVES there's no God. You can't! There is none so stop you mindless blathering.
LarryHarveyMusic 10 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic
There is no proof that he exists. There is no proof that there isn't an invisible and flying pony in my room. Your comment is invalid the most overused comment religious people use.
PS:Sorry, english isn't my first language
newfagful 10 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic No the retard is you because your arguing about something i didn't even say in the first place, stop believing in stuff you have no evidence for and you might get further in life.
boxxer221 10 hours ago
@LarryHarveyMusic Show me the science that proves that there IS a god.
MrCubeGuy 10 hours ago
@TheAmazingMrBruce Why were you ever allowed in the deep end, you could've drowned?
jg7687 12 hours ago
@jg7687 I had armbands
TheAmazingMrBruce 12 hours ago
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@TheAmazingMrBruce "I had armbands"
Fosters Good cool
pinball281 12 hours ago
@steviej321 I'd understand better if you admitted that science points out how little we know. An honest scientist would concede that we are playing it by ear and just along for the ride barely scratching the surface of knowledge. What is known is torn down, restructured and re-known. I'm not waiting for them to acknowledge that it takes their breath away and I'm ignoring the confidence among them.
jg7687 12 hours ago
Why do people even need to dicuss this at all, the bottom line is if you cant prove it, it ain't true.
boxxer221 13 hours ago
@boxxer221 It's in the slim hope that they'll question their faith, rather than accept it blindly
TheAmazingMrBruce 12 hours ago
@boxxer221 EXACTLY! And you can't prove it. There are trillions of FACTS within all the libraries just ere on Earth on subjects YOU don't know anything about. That doesn't mean they aren't true cuz one little pissant had no awareness of them.
LarryHarveyMusic 12 hours ago
@PorkFrog Your humility argument seems for the sake of argument. The bible says that God created us to have a personal relationship with Him. An eternally distant God is unscriptural. Btw, I'm not knocking your 25 years of study.
jg7687 13 hours ago
@jg7687 If he wants a personal relationship why doesn't he reveal himself or spend time with his creation, rather than allow us to kill each other in his name?
TheAmazingMrBruce 13 hours ago
@jg7687 That wasn't meant to be confrontational btw. I know were on the same team
TheAmazingMrBruce 12 hours ago
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@jg7687 'Your humility argument seems for the sake of argument.'
no, it's an observation
humility is the hallmark of the prophet, but speaking for 'God' and as if you know 'God' is not a particularly humble act
it's an interesting contradiction
I don't make arguments for or against 'God's' existence, if that's what you think I'm doing
I am not interested in the is/is not question because I believe 'God' is not falsifiable, but I enjoy the arguments that come along for the ride
PorkFrog 13 hours ago
I think it's funny that the Christians appear to be flagging all the reasoned comments as "spam." I just unflagged 12 logical responses to theists comments. When you can't fight with logic, you just make it go away, huh???
This is like a microcosm of history right here!
psychwardmovies 13 hours ago
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@psychwardmovies nuh uh
pinball281 12 hours ago
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@psychwardmovies
"I think it's funny that the Christians appear to be flagging all the reasoned comments as "spam"--Another assumption. In reality, both theists and atheists get flagged on here....a lot. Some asshole keeps flagging everyone. And no is afraid of your logic. There are theists here [including myself] who don't feel the need to run from your anti-God stance. We ain't scared of ya.
Velayasha 11 hours ago
@PorkFrog Since when is accuracy sexist? Reality operates apart from/despite wishful thinking and is only tampered with by those that entertain mind over matter hopefulness.
jg7687 13 hours ago
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@jg7687 'Since when is accuracy sexist? '
why would 'God' be male?
PorkFrog 13 hours ago
@PorkFrog "Most everyone" I don't subscribe tip the extra-biblical concept of an unapproachable God who cannot be known.
jg7687 13 hours ago
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@jg7687 I didn't write well[preoccupied] but I meant to say most everyone defines 'God' as beyond the senses, and evidence is dependent on the senses, so that makes 'God' unfalsifiable
Now if you entertain 'God' in the philosophical sense, that's different
I'm assuming your take is that 'God' is knowable if approached humbly, and 'reveals' or allows you to know?
[I'm trying to write without referring to 'God' as 'he', I know it's traditional, but I find it sexist]
PorkFrog 13 hours ago
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@jg7687 It is very interesting to me that humility is seen as a key element in many religious traditions to understanding 'God'
The Buddha prized it[Buddhism concerns overcoming the self],the bible says that humility is a key trait in a prophet['Moses was the most humble of men' etc] even before JC started washing feet
this creates a problem,because when a person speaks about 'God' as if he knows him-what's humble about that?
'I know the great mystery of the universe so listen to me'?
PorkFrog 13 hours ago
@steviej321 Without will there is only chance and thus guilt doesn't exist. Therefore all the actions of theists are innocent and you have no complaint. Also, scripture speaks pretty plainly and doesn't suffer from the vague, burdensome offerings of evolutionary explanations.
jg7687 13 hours ago
@steviej321 If evolution were true then we are related to chimps, hence the 'evolved monkeys' comment. I like to laugh a little but not personally at you. Also, where does the hydrogen and oxygen come from for your stew? And, are you saying that God can't grant free will because of his omniscient, omnipresent nature? You'd chastise Him even more as a tyrant if it were not so. You have choice therefore there is judgement for both of us soon.
jg7687 14 hours ago
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steviej321 14 hours ago
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@jg7687 What I didn't get was the "give creation a try" part.
Base elements like hydrogen and oxygen were probably always present in the universe. Stars blow many elements into distant reaches of outer space when they supernova. In addition to that, we've found several meteorites that have fallen onto Earth that contain elements and amino acids.
steviej321 14 hours ago
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"Evolution is unproven and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable."
Romans 1:22-23 Though claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images that looked like mortal human beings, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles.
pinball281 14 hours ago
@pinball281 So your offering bible passages as fact.......boy they got you good
TheAmazingMrBruce 13 hours ago
@PorkFrog Who said God was beyond empiricism to anyone? Was ID supposed to give other options? Why don't you aim the same line of query at 'nature'. I believe in science, but children are playing with it.
jg7687 14 hours ago
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@jg7687 God is beyond empiricism whether he exists or not. Empiricism is about your 5 senses.
And children aren't playing with science. Children are interpreting Genesis literally instead of seeing it as a collection of fables, which it is.
steviej321 14 hours ago
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@jg7687 'Who said God was beyond empiricism to anyone?'
most everyone
'Was ID supposed to give other options?'
'supposed to'? It was just an observation how ID says look, this is designed', but never says, 'You can tell because if it wasn't designed, it would be like this'
'' Why don't you aim the same line of query at 'nature'.''
I'm not sure what you mean but I prolly already have-I've been thing about this for over 25 years since I was a young man
PorkFrog 14 hours ago
@steviej321 No one is stopping 'evolved' monkeys from giving creation a try.
jg7687 15 hours ago
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@jg7687 I don't even understand what your comment is supposed to mean. Try it again without equivocating.
steviej321 14 hours ago
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@jg7687 ''No one is stopping 'evolved' monkeys from giving creation a try.''
unfortunately true--who knows what kinda things are being cooked up behind closed doors[gov type stuff]
I like the creature in Koontz 'Watchers' and the flying kids in Patterson's 'When the Wind Blows'[or 'where', I forget]
But I've been strongly cautioned by folks on here not to discuss sci-fi and other irrelevancies and to avoid writing long posts nobody reads
PorkFrog 6 hours ago
@PorkFrog Design is observable and ignored. Chaos is proclaimed to have brought order from a statistically impossible stew birthed from nothing. It takes more faith to be an atheist. Btw, if God can be manifested by special revelation, then He wouldn't be beyond empiricism.
jg7687 15 hours ago
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@jg7687 Bad, stupid, horrible design is also observable and is ignored in both the cosmos and in life on Earth. And what makes you say that the "stew" was statistically impossible? Or that it was birthed from nothing? The "stew" was a puddle or small body of water in the Earth billions of years ago.
You really don't know what you are talking about jg, do you? Why do you talk out of your ass?
steviej321 15 hours ago
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@jg7687 '.Btw, if God can be manifested by special revelation, then He wouldn't be beyond empiricism.'
no, if 'God' only does the special revelation thing at will, he isn't subject to empiricism to everybody
'Design is observable and ignored.'
The idea of design is a suggestion that things could be otherwise.Could they be?The lungs/heart hook-up is very intricate,but could they have developed in another way?
That's one thing that ID never does is detail another way things coulda been
PorkFrog 15 hours ago
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@jg7687 ID is sorta like when you have one of those good days when everything falls into place-you get up late, but then traffic is light, so you're on time. You get the wrong mail, so you when you finally run into the cutie across the hall later that night, you have an excuse to talk to her, and hit it off. You get fired, but then you meet someone thru a friend that hooks you up with a much better job.
Many people say 'stuff happens for a reason', but maybe stuff just happens
PorkFrog 15 hours ago
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6: 44
Zwemer100 15 hours ago
I'm also an atheist as well and one thing I'd sure love to do to other atheists with this typical type of modern age arrogant elitist attitude that this woman has is to royally fucking smack them right in the mouth.
"I'm not a believer because I'm so much better than those of you who are," is essentially what's she's saying.
TheTitteringNinja 15 hours ago
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@TheTitteringNinja You're an "apatheist" then. You're not the kind of atheist that is valuable to the atheist community. Sad.
steviej321 15 hours ago
@steviej321 Electric signal decide what we decide? Then the penal system is monstrous. Isn't not believing without evidence the same as 'seeing is believing'?
jg7687 16 hours ago
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@jg7687 You'd have to talk to a neuro scientist like Sam Harris.
Human free will may not even exist. And even if it does exist, that doesn't imply an overlooking deity because then we are able to choose actions that would go against his will, and the same actions if the deity doesn't exist.
steviej321 15 hours ago
Kate Smurthwaite gott married in the New Unity Unitarian congregation in north London. I am proud to call myself her minister!
apakula 16 hours ago
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@apakula Really now?! I'd love to hear how the ceremony went. :)
steviej321 16 hours ago
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@apakula why did she get married if anything involving faith is idiotic?
pinball281 16 hours ago
@GrayGhost30 Science itself points out that we know so little. But 'seeing is believing' is still uttered despite the fact that the human will cannot be seen or explained by science yet it's existence is known.
jg7687 16 hours ago
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@jg7687 "Will" doesn't exist in physical form. It is only manifested through the actions of people and other sentient life forms.
In the deeper sense, will is nothing more than a thought or group of thoughts, produced by electric signals from your brain decided upon your surroundings and circumstances.
And for the record, I don't adhere to and I don't believe most atheists adhere to the mantra of "seeing is believing".
steviej321 16 hours ago
@Atharkas I know your joking, but feigning ignorance won't sweep away/remove anything. When He was murdered, He came back. What can you do with that kind of victory?
jg7687 17 hours ago
@TucsonDave111 I listened, prayed and chose what demonstrated was not man made. I looked for love and found it was near. I know you'd like to think everyone approaches this with ignorance. Btw, I don't concede, as some do, that there is no evidence. I concede that in light of all the evidence, it is pointless to try to convince anyone of it.
jg7687 17 hours ago
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{C}
For example, if a guy said 'Invisible creatures are attacking us and making us cough' in about 1432, one might have said 'You're crackers-there's no evidence of that'. THERE was evidence tho-the cough itself is evidence-there was just no way at that time to see little invisible beasties. So that is what we mean when we say 'no evidence'.
PorkFrog 16 hours ago
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{C} When I have this argument, usually it ends up here: 'If 'God' interacted with matter we could see footprints/effects and measure them'. And then I say 'evidence has to be recognized as such and causality must be properly traced. To say there is no evidence of 'God' is to say that we have properly quantified and categorized all natural phenomena.
so this is what is meant by 'there is no evidence'-'there is no evidence available to us or discernible by us at this time'
{C}
PorkFrog 16 hours ago
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@jg7687 ''I don't concede, as some do, that there is no evidence.'' Well evidence is based on the senses, and if 'God' is beyond empiricism{usually defined as can't be seen, touched, heard etc, in an everyday sort of way without special revelation} the evidence would have to be by effects.
{C}
PorkFrog 16 hours ago
Faith in Islam has proof and evidence.
she is ignorant.
the things you DONT SEE however are those you believe they exist . but ONLY after you believe in the Messenger from GOD to be true and not a LIAR. and GOD gives him the proofs which are the Miracles that a human cant do... the Miracle of Islam is the holy Quran GOD words in speech. word by word. not from man. has signs still appearing till today.
the other Miracles of the prophet people can claim "we didnt see them" the holy Quran is here
snaforfun2 17 hours ago
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@snaforfun2 "Faith in Islam has proof and evidence."
RETARD ALERT!!!!!!!!!!
Faith is neither proof nor evidence.
However, if it was, then faith in Christianity is proof and evidence for it. Same could be said for faith in Hinduism.
Now do you see how STUPID your logic is?
steviej321 16 hours ago
Im christian and i find this funny as hell
CharlieScene989 17 hours ago
0:56 Kill Face
BLURtwentyfour7 18 hours ago
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Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
pinball281 18 hours ago
@barbonification Defenceless he said
IReeVo 19 hours ago