Roman Catholic Doctrine of the Virgin Mary Debate Part 1 - Dr. James White

[8marioch]

For important truths on the traditional Catholic faith, its necessity for salvation, proof for Catholicism in the Bible, conspiracy issues, amazing proof of creation, and what really happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II, please visit channel: MHFM1.

[Jasonian]

Devotion to Mary as a means of getting closer to Jesus? That sounds a lot like sleeping with your wife's best friend/sister/etc.. to get closer to your wife. The attention of the husband is his wife's, just as the attention of the church is Christ's. JESUS IS ENOUGH. There is no need for devotion to a dead human, any more than there is need for devotion to your dead grandmother. Respect? Absolutely. Devotion?  Not in the least. It's like ancestor worship.

[rgdjr25]

- just study the Bible with an open mind and you will see that this doctrine is not biblical. The immaculate conception was established as church doctrine in 1854 and is clearly not biblical-

[prairiemark]

@rgdjr25 1854?  Luther believed in the immaculate conception

[PapalSoldier]

@rgdjr25 Well if The Blessed Virgin Mary is not perfect then Jesus can't be perfect. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." St.Ambrose (A.D. 388)

[1tontomato]

Great explanation and defense of our Catholic faith.

Misunderstanding of our Catholic faith will continue, and we Catholics will continue to defend.

I find it intriguing how non-Catholics point out what they think are problems with our faith. Accusing Catholics and judging them for their misunderstanding of our Catholic faith.

I don't see Catholics doing the same to other Christian faiths in the same manner and aggressiveness of non-Catholics.

[polopowers1]

There is not a man whoever lived whom has given us greater love for Christ than Christ Himself.

[CarmineFragione]

The Bible shows God has all behaviors, but God sent a comforting Spirit, called the Holy Spirit to be a help fit for the man. God made Eve of Adam's rib, and called the woman " suitable helper for the man" Thus within God is a masculine gender of Law and Judgment, but then God exudes a Feminine Gender to the Holy Spirit as "Salvation" the be the "Suffering Servant" or the Eve or "Mother of all living" God then makes the Woman the symbol of God's Grace, which is Salvation , Holy Spirit.

[VaniaDawson882]

DL the audio from this song at thetunify doht cohm.

[ancientpho]

@TheSmithDorian John 5:18-19 (you can read further too), clearly Jesus equates himself with God. Mark 2:5-11 & Luke 5:20-24, Only God can forgive sins, even the scribes who were heretics knew this, and were angry at Jesus for doing so, which would be the same as saying he is God. John 8:57-58 Jesus says before Abraham was, 'I am", same as what God told Moses to tell Pharaoh as to who sent him, in Exodus 3:14-15. John 10:24-38 Father and I are one. Jews say "you, a mere man, claim to be God."

[ryno200]

James with hair? Now this clip is old!

[FLUSEM666]

A jewish minx impregnated by an angel. Come on people. Don’t be delusional fools all your lives. Please start thinking critically and ditch this superstition.

[1dogsamson]

Typical anti-Catholic accusations. Protestants believe that Catholics think that Mary can forgive sin. You can't find that in Catholic teaching anywhere. Also, David invoked the angels in the Psalms and the book of Revelations provides proof that those in heaven CAN intercede for us. Revelation 5:8 . . . the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

[studsterkel1]

What must be noticed from the debate below is that nobody is changing anybody's minds. What is significant though to note is that, contrary to popular belief, Catholics have VERY GOOD, SCRIPTURAL reasons for what they do and believe. If you understand that, you see that many of the objections to Catholicism are NOT based on Catholics being "wrong," those objections are instead created as a way to simply object to Catholics. The "premise" is "well the Catholics must be wrong."

[doowah57]

Sort of interesting that James White's sister converted to the Roman Catholic faith.

[clevelandshero23]

I did not know that The Almighty God who created the heaven and the earth had a mother

[1dogsamson]

@clevelandshero23

So, Jesus is not God? You can't have it both ways. If you say Mary was only the mother of the human Jesus and not the divine Jesus then you are separating Christ divinity from His humanity and commiting the same heresy as the Arians.

[clevelandshero23]

@1dogsamson no I am not in order for Jesus to be dispatch into the world Jehovah God put Jesus Christ in the womb of Marry and he was to be called Son of the Most High not God the Son

[1dogsamson]

@clevelandshero23 Well, when Thomas saw the resurrected Jesus and doubted, Jesus then said to him 'touch the wounds in my hands and touch my wounded side' when Thomas did that he responded 'my Lord and my God.' Jesus did not say to him 'don't call me that!' Obviously you are a JW. Pretty easy to take apart the heresys of that cult.

[clevelandshero23]

@1dogsamson no one deny that Jesus is not a God he just not the Most High God Jehovah. when Jesus came onto Thomas he did it with a materialized body anyone with a brain will know that when he showed him the hole in his hand did the scripture mention that Thomas seen the blood from it? you can not enter heaven with a physical body only spirits can inherit the heavens Jesus had to use a materialize body to prove to Thomas that he was indeed raised up by his Father

[1dogsamson]

@clevelandshero23 Thomas exclaimed "My Lord and my God". Thomas was a devout Jew and knew exactly who the God of Abraham (YHWH) was, and never, EVER would have called Jesus such figuratively or otherwise. It would have been blasphemy.

[smartwarlord]

@1dogsamson

As it has been pointed out a million times, not only is this a Greek translation of Thomas' saying, but it is also mis-translated into English. Thomas says "My Master and my God" --- this does not equate Jesus with G-d, but rather states that Jesus is either Thomas' Savior or Thomas' Mediator. Alternatively it has been understood as a reference to Jesus as a lesser divinity [under God]

[clevelandshero23]

@1dogsamson like I said I never said Jesus was not a God he is the Mighty God not the Almighty show me in the bible where Jesus is refereed to the Almighty God Jehovah and not the son of the Almighty God Jehovah. Jesus is son of the Most High not the Most High himself

[1dogsamson]

@clevelandshero23

Can you imagine the joy of finding a codex claiming both Jesus' divinity and his bodily resurrection dated to within five or so years of his death? Oh the shibboleths that crumble. Your JW denial of Christ's divinity for one! Well, the recent discovery in Israel of just such is has your claims invalidated: A group of 70 or so "books", each with between five and 15 lead leaves bound by lead rings, was recently discovered in a remote arid valley in northern Jordan.

[TheSmithDorian]

@1dogsamson

If this the best evidence you have for Jesus being God then your argument is in trouble. If Jesus is God why does he never once say so? Why would saying it, even if just to the disciples, be such a big problem?

If true it would be one of most important statements in the entire Bible and it would be proclaimed and reinforced by Jesus and his followers throughout the gospels. Yet there is this only this one questionable phrase from Thomas and even that isn't in 3 of the 4 gospels.

[studsterkel1]

Luke 1:41-43 (New International Version, ©2011)

"41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Smartwarlord: Mary is the mother of Elizabeth's Lord, my Lord and your Lord. Mary is the Mother of God. Not Catholic invention, but God Revelation.

[Gideon6640man]

@studsterkel1 Where is she showed to be worshipped or interceed for us? NOWHERE!!!

[studsterkel1]

@Gideon6640man

You are correct, Gideon, nowhere is she shown as "worshipped." Any self proclaimed Catholic that 'worships" Mary is engaging in heresy. It is intellectually dishonest to lift up a misformed Catholic, who may engage in polytheism, as representative of "Catholics" at large. Is that what you are doing?

Doesn't 1 TIM 2:1 tell us to make "intercessions" for all men? Why can those on earth intercede but not those in heaven (Mary & Saints)? See Rev 5:8.They lift up our prayers

[Gideon6640man]

@No I see Roman Catholics telling me that they kneel at statues of Mary. I family have family members were or still are Catholics so I am not ignorant on the issue. Re: 1 Tim 2:1 yup we are to intercede while we are on this earth but nowhere are we joint mediators with Christ are we? We don't have shrines erected to us do we? If all Mary is doing that according to the text , then why is she eleveated above that? Im talking in practice not theory either. Do you think Mary hears you? mediates?

[studsterkel1]

Wait a second. What is the point of praying for anybody? Can't Jesus do it alone? Yes, but we can help. We pray to the Lord WITH Jesus, but we are not equal to Jesus. You just don't like the revelation of it. Do you really believe that once people are in Heaven they are stripped of their ability to intercede? How depressing...and unscriptural. Rev 5:8 The Saints are seen "holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people" How do they know our prayers?

[Gideon6640man]

@studsterkel1 No, we dont "help" Jesus pray that is not what scripture teaches and its absurd. The reason we do is because it brings us close in a very intimate way with the Eternal G-d. The Saints in Heaven are praying to who again?(Rev5:9) .1 Tim 2:5 alone destroys this unbiblical heresy.You confuse praying for each other as we should and inteceeding directly to G-d the Father,the former is for all Christians, the latter is fo Christ and Christ alone. See why you need man made traditions?

[studsterkel1]

@Gideon6640man My word you misrepresent what I say! I said "with" not "help." Jesus prays and mediates for us just like we do with our intercessory ability. But while you're on that point. 1 Cor 3:9 "For we are God's FELLOW WORKERS." Some translations say "CO-workers." What?? Can't God do it alone? Of course he can. We work WITH God. We mediate WITH Jesus. God has just shown us that he has given Mary a special place in Heaven. I'm sure you can parce words all day long.

[Gideon6640man]

@studsterkel1 Co workers does not denote elevating Mary or Saints, you miss the point of the text keep reading, it's realy bad thing for RCC in context. Ok let's assume your right, by that logic do you pray to your dead relatives to interceed? Fellow or co workers same thing. The whole thrust of Pauls teaching is not one of being equal mediators, no way and that is the issue we are discussing.

[studsterkel1]

Something else that is flawed is your assumption that everything God has shown us of Mary must be in the Bible and can only be in the Bible. Catholics accept the constraints of "only arguing within the Bible" because non-Catholics require that artificial requirement of discussion. On one hand they will admit that God acts in the world, but then they will say it's impossible for God to have sent his Mother to give us messages because they don't like that reality. Think of Shrines as big pictures

[studsterkel1]

@Gideon6640man

"Praying to" Mary or the Saints. "Praying to" does not equal "worshipping." It means "communicating with" or "petitioning." If it's petitionary prayer, it's a request that a Saint lift up our causes to the Lord as is shown that they do in Rev 5:8. Why ignore that revelation of John? It's a big deal.

KNEELING...no requirement to kneel. But we imitate Jesus. He is a good son. Honors (not worships) his mama. So we honor his mama. Pretty easy to see the justification.

[Gideon6640man]

@studsterkel1 Problems with your stance. 1)Communicating with the dead 1Sam 28:7-25 G-d allowed it to condemn Saul nothing else. 2) Luke 16:19-26 is very clear.Jesus kneeled before Mary? when did this happend? your imitating Jesus stance to prove this doctrine is flawed because while we are to be Christ like as instructed in scripture not because of a tradion of men.Jesus preached, we preach etc....But do we forgive sins cause he did? of course not we imitate as instructed by scripture.

[studsterkel1]

Take a look at the 1st chapters of 1 Kings. Why does God show us how KING Solomon gives such high honor to the Queen MOTHER? Why show us that? "Make your request , my mother; for I will not refuse you." 1 Kings2:20. Fast forward to the Wedding at Cana where Mary prompts Jesus to begin his public ministry and perform his first public miracle. Is Mary the "Queen Mother" foreshadowed in 1 Kings with Bathsheba? The Woman of Rev 12 is "crowned" in Heaven. It's Revelation. Don't ignore it.

[theflarpus]

I never realized just how creepy this doctrine is and this is only after the first ten minutes of the debate.

[xukeith33]

Mary is not GOD! She is an intercessor! See revelations. And for those who wonder what the first church thought read from year 80-200 church fathers..

[gibsongold1970]

the cross is NOT a graven image.

you pray to her,when you should be praying in jesus' name.

HE is our saviour.not mary.yes,she is blessed to be chosen by GOD ALMIGHTY,

TO BE THE VESSEL OF GOD INCARNET.(GOD MAN).

DID CHRIST SAY TO PRAY TO MARY? NO,HE SAID TO USE HIS NAME WHEN PRAYING TO THE FATHER.WAKE UP!

[CaminandoconMaria]

BENDITA TU ENTRE TODAS LAS MUJERES.

[sonofmary1]

5 random questions to which I have never heard a protestant give a satisfactory answer:

1)What objective reasons do you have to consider the Bible to be inspired literature?

2)Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the only rule for faith?

3)Why does Saint Paul call the Church the foundation of truth?

4)Where is the only place in the Bible where the words "faith" and "alone" are next to one another.

5)Why did Jesus give his apostles the authority to forgive sins?

[NY1054Cool]

@sonofmary1 The answers to your question has long ago been answered. Ignorance of them is your problem and no one elses. The answer to your question relating to the role of Scripture is found in DISPUTATION ON HOLY SCRIPTURE Againist the Papist especially Bellarmine and Stapleton by William Whitaker ( 1547-1595 )

[NY1054Cool]

@sonofmary1 The answer to #3 is it refers to the local church which is surposed to teach the true doctrines of scripture and not invent unknown dogmas. Paul was not refering specifically to the Church of Rome right there. Hence the folly in your question.

[sonofmary1]

@NY1054Cool

Of course Paul was not referring to the Church of Rome. He was referring to the Church. And there is one Church, the bride of Christ. And Jesus only has one bride.

[NY1054Cool]

@sonofmary1 The Universal church is not in view there but rather the local church of which Timothy was at. The Ephesian assmebly is what Paul mentioned there. Therefore to misuse that passage to support the RCC is reading to the text what is not there.

[NY1054Cool]

@sonofmary1 To # 4 James is teaching good works are the fruit of living faith in Jesus Christ. This relates to good works as the proof of one's faith of which is manifested in good works in the life of the Christ. Your question is based on a misinterpretation of James 2. The RCC has never provided a dogmatically infallibly defined interpretation of James 2 for you so you practice private interpretation of which Roman Catholics condemn Protestants for doing when they are guilty of the same.

[sonofmary1]

@NY1054Cool

Wrong. This was not a proof of the faith of Abraham, as the only one who saw him sacrifice his son was God. Because of what he DID, he was justified in the sight of God.

[NY1054Cool]

@sonofmary1 Abraham was justified before God in Gen 15. The proof of Abraham's faith which resulted in good works as talked of in James 2 is in Gen 22. Abraham's act in Gen 22 confirmed the reality of His faith which took place over 20 years after what is in Gen 15. James 2 relates to justification in the eyes of men which proves faith in good works in their life.

[NY1054Cool]

@sonofmary1 They proclaimed the forgiveness of sins based on the work of Christ on the cross. This authority is given to the apostles and all believers if you reread the text. God used the apostles and Christians to reach God's elect people with the Gospel for eternal life based on Christ death on the cross for our sins and his resurrection.

[sonofmary1]

@NY1054Cool

Wrong. Jesus did not tell them to proclaim the forgiveness of sins. He gave them authority to forgive sins.

[NY1054Cool]

@sonofmary1 Proclaim the forgiveness of sins. It is based on the Gospel. God alone forgives sins based on the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. This the apostles and all Christians have the authority to proclaim to the lost. Jesus died for sinners and not the apostles or so called priest or any other human being. The terms of the Gospel is set forth by the Lord Jesus Christ.

[kiwichristian2009]

Through infant baptism, keeping sacraments, church membership, going to mass, praying to Mary, and confession (just to mention a few), the Catholic church has developed a system of salvation through WORKS. God's word says that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not through works". "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

[SuperIsaac50]

like i said dont reply to this untell u have watched those 2 videos cuz affter u watch them u will understand what i am saying and why the cath church is not from god :)

[SuperIsaac50]

and affter u watch catholic church exposed 32 min video on (Google videos) go and watch

Roman Catholicism Series #13: The Catholic on google videos and plz dont comment on these unless u have watched the video :) cuz i know once u watch these 2 videos u would think alot diffrent about the cath church and if u dont i can show u more videos to watch the cath church is not from god no not at all now

[calebstone22]

Explain Scripture with Scripture. If your theology can only be explained from a source outside of the Word you may want to rethink a postion or two.

[ethanoburu]

WATCH THE YOUTUBE VIDEO CALLED: The Truth About Mary and Scripture: must see!

[ethanoburu]

WATCH THIS YOUTUBE VIDEO CALLED the following: The Truth About Mary and Scripture: must see!

[patrckhh20]

White was so young in this video!

Catholic doctrine fails btw.

[wood9670]

Um what was the point in quoting Deuteronomy 5:7-9.

No Catholic worships Mary, we giver her the honor and respect due to the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven. and if you are going to say statues and paintings is idolatrous then you must believe King Salomon was the greatest idolater of all for his contained statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. These would be "graven images" of thing "in the heaven above," " and in "the earth beneath."

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31

[smartwarlord]

@wood9670

Mary is and was nothing more than a vessel, she served no other purposes and was a normal Jewish woman.

She is not the "Mother of god" or "Queen of heaven". these are pagan blasphemies.

[wood9670]

@smartwarlord, Rev. 12. has been interpreted by Christians for 2,000 years as referring to Mary due to the fact that the woman depicted gave birth to a "male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter" (King Jesus) & the Queen of Heaven reference refers to her being "Crowned with stars" & "clothed with the sun." (sign of royalty, no?) Also, in the OT the Mother of the King was the Queen of his kingdom.

Wiki Nestorianism for the justification for the Theotokos title.

[smartwarlord]

@wood9670

The woman is Israel. Not Mary. And for 2,000 years it's been understand to be a Hebraism in Revelation.

[wood9670]

@smartwarlord, You are also right. The woman represents Mary, Israel, and the Church as a whole.

For Catholics, the reference to the ark of the covenant immediately prior to this passage (Rev 11:19) confirms the woman's identification with Mary as she is seen as the ark of the "new covenant" bearing the Word of God (Christ) in her womb as the old ark carried the Ten Commandments.

Is their a reason to not view the woman as Mary? Is the interpretation really that unreasonable?

[reubenravidass]

@wood9670 it is israel the women is rev 12 comparing it with isaiah

[wood9670]

@reubenravidass, Revelation contains "fusion imagery," in which one symbol is composed of elements from several different things. For example, the four living creatures John sees around God’s throne (4:6–8) are a fusion of elements from the cherubim seen in Ezekiel (Ezek. 10:1–14) and the seraphim seen in Isaiah (Isa. 6:1–5).

As I stated before the woman in Rev 12 represents Mary, the Church as a whole, as well as Israel.

Is their a reason not to view the woman as Mary?

[reubenravidass]

@wood9670 the seraphim and the four living creatures are 2 different being they are not the same the four living creatures has four faces with six wings werelse the the seraphim is slightly different. they look identical but they are not the same.

[reubenravidass]

@wood9670 mary cannot be refered in rev 12 because it states that mary was without sins by the church but she cried in PAIN giving birth to the male child according to genesis it is the curse god put in the women after she ate the forbidden fruit. the twelve stars refers to the 12 tribes of israel and the angel michael is specially assigned to the nation of israel. sorry it is not mary at all.

[reubenravidass]

@wood9670 mary is not the ark of the covenant it is where the presence of the almighty gods dwell. the ark contains aaron rod that budded, the tablets of stones and the manna it is symbolically speaks of the church that is us not mary alone. it states we are temple of god in which the holy spirit dwells. it is not mary or the church it is with affimative ISRAEL. we should honour her not pray to her that is doctrinenally not sound.

[havock89]

@smartwarlord Thats an interesting opinion. I think the Catholic church's opinion however is more likely to be true.

[theembracedofgod]

@havock89

perhaps along with the pagans of traditional roman worship.

[havock89]

@theembracedofgod I have no idea what dead roman pagans think.

What a bizzare thing to say! lol

[conrade]

@smartwarlord How then would you explain the announcement of the Angel Gabriel to MARY that SHE will bear the SON of GOD?It's in the Bible. Would you interpret it again as different?

[3987Gara]

@smartwarlord Most people fail to realize why Jesus called Blessed Mary "Woman" on various occasions. Do to their bigotry and hatred of the Catholic Church, they are unable to see the correlation. Blessed Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, she is the second Eve. Who was God referring to in Gen iii. 15? It was the second Eve. Scriptures have many meanings, so Apoc. xii.1 is referring to the Church, as well as Blessed Mary. You really should read the writings of the Early Fathers.

[Gideon6640man]

@smartwarlord It's hard for people so brainwashed with a religion steepped in Babylonian and other mystery religions. The Bible is the worst enemy of the Papacy and what a racket they have with Purgatory.

[kiwichristian2009]

@wood9670 The woman in revelation is a picture of the Israelite nation as shown in Gen37:9,10 with the sun representing Jacob, the moon his wife Rachel, and the 12 stars representing the tribes of Israel. Christ was born of Israel. The Israelite nation is often referred to as a woman in Isaiah54:5 and Jeremiah31:32.This woman cannot be mary because the woman IS ON EARTH DURING THE TRIBULATION, whereas mary's spirit is in heaven at that time.

[NY1054Cool]

@wood9670 Rev 12 in the early church father writings has been interpreted as being the church and not Mary. Learn to read the church father writings. The woman refering to Mary is an invention of Roman Catholicism and has no basis in the primative church.

[Gideon6640man]

@wood9670 OMG what Christians? The Woman in Rev is Israel and the child is the Messiah.Nothing in Rev of the woman being venerated, EVER. the RCC has commited the heresy of Replacement Theology which of course would explain it's Anit Semetic attitude and persecution of Jews. Rev 13 & 17 is the RCC and the details are dead on explaining the Roma Church. Man where did you learn Biblical interpetation? The Jesuit School for Pale Young Boys?

[wood9670]

@Gideon6640man, I am a deist now. I am no longer Christian. And I am done wasting my time with these petty and useless arguments. Have fun Catholic bashing, find another target.

[Gideon6640man]

@wood9670 LOL then why do you come here? .Catholic bashing? Thats a response one would expect froma cultist .Bashing? um no Im just responding to questions. You have no answers that's ok but don't reduce it to name calling.

[wood9670]

@Gideon6640man, OMG, you are so right and the RCC soo wrong. Curse there "traditions of men."

Seriously though, 9 months. That is how old my comment is. I was a devout Catholic then but thanks to people like you I have seen the irrationality of these debates. Have fun discovering your answers.

Because with state sponsored taxation (theft), wars of aggression, and collectivist bigotry, debates over the identity of the woman in Revelation is how a Christian ought to be spending his/her time.

[Gideon6640man]

@wood9670 Bigotry? yes your RCC has plenty practice.The Inquisitions,genocide, 99 Anathemas they put out @ Trent to evenagelicals...yeah and your picked on. So tell me why do you support such things and why so Anti Semitic?.

[wood9670]

@Gideon6640man, Wow, my comment really went over your head.

Let me break this down for you. Quibbling over what denomination is true & what the proper interpretation of a verse is is irrational. Again, with state sponsored taxation (institutionalized theft), wars of aggression (institutionalized murder), & collectivist bigotry (i.e. nationalism, racism, sexism, homophobia, ect.), you are truly wasting you energy.

I am a Deist now. I am no longer Catholic. Look else where for a debate.

[Gideon6640man]

@wood9670 No seems you just turned into a deist according to your comment above hear when you say "we give her honor" the only head you went over was your own. Fact is the RCC does by action not lip service to deny, worships Mary.

[wood9670]

@Gideon6640man, you are so right. Catholics are idolaters. Its so obvious now. Thanks.

[Gideon6640man]

@wood9670 Don't take my word for it,do your own homework....see? I did not burn you at the steak for disagreeing with me.

[wood9670]

@Gideon6640man, okay you win.

[Gideon6640man]

@wood9670 Win? Not what it's about. You need the real Christ like we all do.Sorry you are so terrfified for being bound to such a works oriented religion that makes oyu depend on them. Your a slave to it and it bothers me to see that. I win nothing here. Trust G-d.

[bmac1290]

@smartwarlord If Mary wasn't the Mother of God than Jesus wasn't God. Make up your mind.

[demondagger19]

@smartwarlord Agreed. We have no need to devout ourselves to Mary, in order to get closer to Christ, Jesus plainly said "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved."(John 10:9). Mary was a humble normal Jewish women of God who "submitted" to her role to give birth to Jesus Christ, that was her purpose, nothing more. To place Mary above or beyond her already established role, is in fact idolatry.

[conrade]

@smartwarlord Don't you ever say that to our humble MOTHER. If you don't honor our faith, then better keep it to yourself. In fact, we don't even disrespect your foolish beliefs.

[3987Gara]

@smartwarlord You could not be more wrong. Let me ask you this, How important was the Ark of the Old Covenant? What happened to Uzzah when he touched it? If the Ark of the Old Covenant was that important, how is it that you believe the Ark of the New Covenant to nothing?

--She is not the "Mother of god" or "Queen of heaven".--

So I take it you don't believe Jesus is our Lord God and King? If you understood the smallest amount of history, you would know that the Kings Mother was a Queen.

[3987Gara]

@smartwarlord Also, who was the first to call Blessed Mary "Blessed?" Was it not God the Father (Lk. i. 28)? And who was the second to call her "Blessed?" Was it not God the Holy Ghost (Lk. i. 41-42)?

So now why are you not following the Scriptures? Did not Mary say that all generations SHALL (that is a command) call her blessed (Lk. i. 48)?

So now lets see, God showed through example and the Scriptures commands us to do so. I guess you just aren't included with that Generation are you?

[3987Gara]

@smartwarlord I guess you never took the time to look through the Greek. In Luke i. 43

And whence is this to me, that the --mother of my Lord--(the Greek: meter ho kurios / 'μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου' that is 'Mother of God') should come to me?

It is obvious that you don't seem to care to find the truth. That is a Shame.

[1dogsamson]

@smartwarlord

So, if Mary is not the mother of God, then Jesus was not God. Talk about blasphemy!

[Gideon6640man]

@1dogsamson No Mariam,here real name btw gave birth to the incarnate Jesus but she is not the spiritual mother of Christ. She cannot interceed for us not can she forgive us for our sins, only G-d can do that.

[reubenravidass]

@wood9670 it is symbolic but the catholic chuch takes the statue of mary of fatima and they carried it around in procession. the old testment is the shadow of the new. in the old their prayer was not directed to the carving of the wall not like the catholic who worshipped those idols and pope john 2 kissed the statue of fatima after the bullet incident that is idoltary of the highest order.

[wood9670]

@reubenravidass, the petitions (asking for someones prayers) are directed toward the saint him/herself not the image. And unless you can read minds and KNOW that people are worshiping someone/something even when they say they are not then you really need to start to show some humility & stop making assumptions about others people's religion.

As for the heresy bit, I guess every time a person kisses a picture they are worshiping the image of that person or place right?

[reubenravidass]

@wood9670 even directed towards her is wrong according to hebrew 4:16 let us come bodly before the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. and 1timothy 2:5 for there is one god and mediator between god and man the man christ jesus.and also hebrews 7:25 he jesus ever liveth to make intercession for us. to kiss a statue is complety wrong that is what the hindues does by pouring milk and kissing the statue of their goddess kali and the rest.

[wood9670]

@reubenravidass, Prayer is not synomynous with worship in Catholicism. To pray simply means to ask another for their prayers to God, be they on earth or in Heaven.

The practice of praying for the dead has been a part of the Jewish faith since before Christ. Look up the mourner's Kaddish.

Remember that 2 Maccabees 12:39–46, on which Catholics base their observance of saintly intercession, shows that, a century and a half before Christ, prayer for the dead was taken for granted.

[reubenravidass]

@wood9670 like i said u can go directly before god according to the scriptures i have given u. that book of macabees is a non canonical book which the early fathers didn't quote so it is not part of the bible. even if u take that verse that praying to the dead is cursed by the jews in the book of deutronomy it is necromancy. in hebrews 10:19 having boldness to enter the holiest of all by the blood of jesus. u don't need anthony,mary, anne and any other creature to reach god u can go byurself.

[2000yrCatholic]

@reubenravidass Where did the Scriptures come from? Who decided which books

were inspired or not?

[reubenravidass]

@2000yrCatholic the early fathers at different location. the 27 books were considered authority in the first and second century but the canon was not closed until the council of constinople. first cryteria is it must be written within 100 years of the first century second it must be written by eye witness or the apostles third it must be based on the catholicity(universal) of the tradition carried down.

[reubenravidass]

@wood9670 catholic do worship mary in all the appration of fatima she exalts herself like she said if my immaculate heart will triumph all russia will be converted. it also states that if u use the scepulere in the hour of dead i will help save ur soul from hell. is she the God of jesus and the catholic to exalts herself beyond the triune god it is demonic in nature. catholic worship her more than jesus we don't need another god like mary. u can enjoy her for urself thanks but no thanks.

[2000yrCatholic]

@reubenravidass You accept Jesus but slam the door on the face of His Mother!

[reubenravidass]

@2000yrCatholic i have great and the highest respect for the mother of jesus. she must be honoured but not worshhipped and be prayed too. by the way if we wholly follow jesus and worshhiped him alone his mother will be well pleased with us.hebrews 4:16 let us come boldly to the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

[2000yrCatholic]

@reubenravidass Catholics don't worship Mary we worship the Father, Son and

Holy Spirit. Mary prays for us and with us just as all who follow Jesus

pray for one another and with one another.

[reubenravidass]

@2000yrCatholic the catholic church did it in ignorance by taking the statue of fatima in procession is a sign of IDOL worship. by the way u don't need a mediator, The lord jesus is the mediator between god and man 1 timothy 2:5. and hebrews 7:25 says jesus lives for ever to make intercession for us. and the falacy of ur resoning is i can pray for u but i still do it in jesus name. john 14:14

[bella50008]

@2000yrCatholic ...you worship mary (the demon) . The Mary of the Bible would NEVER seek or solicit your blashemous worship.

[kiwichristian2009]

@2000yrCatholic Pope Pius IX in 1854 “Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. ” ."All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV."Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." St. John Chrysostom

[QuantumUni]

@wood9670, Solomon never bowed down or used the images as a means of mediation for prayer and God.

[wood9670]

@QuantumUni, he bowed down before an object did he not? My general point was that one's physical actions are for the most part irrelevant one's intent and motive for acting is not idolatry.

[GODSERVANT7]

@wood9670 OH YES, YOU DO WORSHIP MARY!!!!!!

PLEASE DONT LIE!!!!

[theembracedofgod]

@wood9670

She isn't the mother of God my friend. saying such assertions reverts greek mythology.

[sonofmary1]

@theembracedofgod

The heretic Nestorius once said

"Do you realize what you are saying? If we grant what you say, then in that manger, that Baby, looking up at His Mother, was fully God."To which we reply, "Yes, that is the faith of the Church."

[patrckhh20]

@wood9670 It is not honoring to bestow upon her titles that neither she nor the Bible ever gave, especially the blasphemous title "queen of heaven." You references to Solomon don't make sense. The scriptures that you quoted were first for the ark of testimony and the vail, both in the holy of holies not in a Solomonic kingdom, and neither were simply "images." There is simply no way for catholics to get around the fact that they are committing idolatry by kneeling, kissing and praying to Mary.

[3987Gara]

@wood9670 I have come to a sudden realization. Never have I met so many that have no integrity.

These so called "Christians," would rather take hearsay as if it were gold, then look through Catholic Dogma to find the truth. It is because they lack; honor, integrity, selflessness, humility, respect, and personal courage.

It is truly sad, if Lucifer himself lied about the Church to them, they would take it as pure truth and run away with it.

It is a shame that most Protestants are dishonorable.