Mind you my family is Catholic and fully accepting of me for who I am. I imagine that is something you would take issue with, but they do not. Jesus taught that we should all love each other unconditionally and judge not lest ye be judged. Is that not true? You cannot see the person behind what you consider to be a sin because you are so obsessed with the sin. We're not bad people, and whatever message of acceptance you take issue with us pushing, you only do because you hate.
@danndavbmann I am accepting of everyone I meet. You have no idea what you are talkig about. I have friends who are gay, I have friends who are living in sin. I do not harrang them, but we have had conversations on the subject. That is the way they want to live and that is not the way I want to live or how I want my family to live.
I never asserted you were bad people. I think you have a victim complex. I do not confuse the person with the sin. You do that, not me. I dont hate either.
@havock89 Fair enough, but you do a grave injustice to your friends with the message that gay people are corrupt, after children, that homosexuality is a choice, and that homosexuals should not have the same right to marriage as heterosexuals do. If you were truly concerned for the well-being of gay people, that we're gay aside, you should want to help, not penalize our community. It isn't a victim mentality per se- we are at times victims of prejudice of a kind that you apparently support.
@danndavbmann I dont say that gay people are corrupt. Just that those that live a homosexual lifestyle are living in sin. I dont say homosexuality is a choice, just living a homosexual lifestyle is a choice. I dont say homosexuals should not have the right to marry, just that they should not pervert and mutilate marriage to suit their own self-indulgent ends.
I am not concerned about the well-being of gay people anymore than they are for me. Well being is your concern. Society is my concern.
@havock89 Then I am left to wonder what qualifies to you as a "homosexual lifestyle". My lifestyle is pretty lame. I wake up, get dressed, shower, and I'm off to the cubical. On weekends I have a night out at the pub with friends and on Sundays my partner and I head to church and then out to Sunday brunch. The only thing supposedly "sinful" going on here is that I am in a committed monogamous relationship with another man. Big deal. There is no such thing as a victimless crime.
@danndavbmann Ignoring all the other claptrap you entered in order to obfuscate the issue - So your response to sexual immorality is, "big deal". That says everything that needs to be said.
If you dont want to be chaste and hence not want to be a faithful catholic. that is your choice. The consequences for that choice are yours also. You love god so little, that you would turn away from Him in order to satisfy the disordered desire of your flesh. Your choices will echo into eternity.
@havock89 What you just said could not be further from the truth. I left Catholicism because do not believe in a God of petty jealousy, double standards, condemnation, and bigotry. My relationship with God is a personal one. So is yours. How dare you judge that and even by the tenets of your own faith, it is a sin to do so. I am in a monogamous relationship; married to my partner by my church, and while I was not chaste as I should have been prior, I am faithful to him and will remain so.
@danndavbmann You have no teaching authority. You are not in a position to tell me anything about God. You cannot be married to another man. That is not what marriage is. You have usurped that which by your own choices you have no right to. You are a thief and a liar, and i do not recognise this petty, double standards god you speak of. That is not the god of the apostles that is not the god of the creed. That is not the god of catholicism. You have turned away from The Lord in the Eucharist.
As someone who was raised Catholic, attended Catholic School for twelve years, and happens to also be gay, I cringe at the thought of what I might have done as a teenager responding to such hatred as is demonstrated in this video. It is hatred, and to call it anything else especially while demonizing the gay community and distorting the facts is as despicable as the act is audacious. This video is not something that I believe Jesus would have approved of.
@havock89 Hatred is like what happened after I was expelled in retrospect for leaving my Catholic High School because a student reported to faculty that I'm gay. I lost my funding for college because of that. Otherwise, this video demonstrates hatred in its attempt at offering proof that gay people are after children. It simply is not true, and such claims are made in an attempt at disparaging us along with the use of the phrase "homosexual activist".
The catholic church holds certain things to be true. If you remove yourself from that body of believers by living a lifestyle that is not compatible with those beliefs, YOU are responsible for that. YOU hate what the chruch teaches and YOU hate the self-sacrifice you have been called to in order to remain chaste. YOU have no right to the benefits that come with being a faithful catholic. Have some integrity and stop whining like a child.
@havock89 Sexual orientation is widely believed by the vast majority of psychologists to be either unchangeable or extremely difficult to change (there is to date no credible evidence that it can be changed). You're talking about children brought up in the church because it is part of their community, family, or culture. These are people who do not choose to be gay and you then present them with the choice of a life of celibacy or a sham marriage. To dismiss their suffering as 'whining' is cruel
@SpeedyBruin There are three real life examples that I personally know of where homosexuality has been overcome.
The whinning I was talking about was specifically to do with Danndavbmanns reasoning based on the fact that he no longer wanted to be a faithful catholic and then cried fowl because he lost his scholarship. I am not dismissing his suffering, I am telling him to be accountable for his actions and choices. All catholics are called to be chaste. Its not an "option".
@havock89 Here is a key distinction: unchaste Catholics are not denied marriage on that basis, but many such as yourself find that this is a basis for denying lgbt Americans the right to marry.
I'm sure you know people who, under great pressure in their communities, claim to no longer be attracted to people of the same sex, but simply saying so or perhaps no longer perusing relationships with others of the same sex does not necessarily mean those attraction are not still there.
@SpeedyBruin Thats stupid and you know it. Stop hopscotiching from one subject matter to another. You are intellectually dishonest. LGBTs can get married as soon as they choose to do so to a person of the opposite sex. For that is what marriage IS.
Your arrogance is astounding, and you are utterly wrong.
@havock89 I'd like to keep to the facts as much as possible. I know you denounced 'excessive rudeness' in one of your other comments and I think throwing words like 'arrogant' and 'stupid' at me is unproductive.
That said I think I addressed your point fairly directly. Do you dispute the American Psychological Association's statement that sexual orientation is either fixed or extremely difficult to change and that there is no evidence to date that it can be?
@SpeedyBruin OK. Ill talk about my religion briefly, but it is not related to this topic.
I believe that without the grace of god, it is nearly impossible to change your sexual orientation. I think with the grace of god it is difficult but doable. However I have never said or implied that catholics must CHANGE their orientation. Just not live a sinful lifestyle. Being gay in catholicism is referred to as "intrinsically disordered" however it is an accident of nature and is NOT itself sinful.
@havock89 The problem with this is that there are indeed people who offer faith-based therapies to change sexual orientation, Exodus for example. However, there is no evidence that these therapies are effective and may in fact be harmful.
However, I do not believe that this religious reasoning should be the basis of governmental policy.
On a more human note, imagine being labeled by your community as being 'intrinsically disordered' or in your words being permanently an 'accident of nature'.
@havock89 The scholarship I lost was state funded, and I lost it because of a school policy that expelled students were discredited of their courses during the semester they were let go. I had taken my courses in full and having decided I was not comfortable at the school, I left on my own accord. The expulsion happened a month later after a student told faculty I was gay. Neither myself nor my parents were informed and the news came 1 yr later in the form of a revised transcript 1 month b4 grad
@havock89 Go ahead and dismiss what I have said. The expulsion and subsequent dis-accreditation happened just as I described it and it cost me a state funded scholarship. I see you really don't care what happens to gay people in real life because of being who we are. Neither do I assume you really care about society as a whole because the well-being of society begins with protecting the rights the individual. The callous disregard you have demonstrated here is all I needed to see. Catcha later!
@danndavbmann You are absolutely right. I dont know you, and I dont know that anything you have detailed is true. So I cannot take you at your word. I will treat what you have said with callous disregard because I have no way of making a comparison and determining the truth of what you have said. Do you honestly expect me to be so soft in the head as to do otherwise? Grow up.
I have nothing against you, but neither do I have anything "for" you.
@danndavbmann Secondly. I know what this news cast says is true, because I have experienced it myself. So I know what you are saying is a lie. Homosexual activism spreads its message far an wide, that the homosexual lifestyle is good and normal. I dont believe that to be true. It is a self-justification of a disordered nature, and we faithful catholics DO NOT WANT our children exposed to this lie. Its not hateful, its just how we want to live our lives and order our families.
@havock89 The right to marry has nothing to do with the way you chose to order your family. IT has everything to do with how other people order theirs. What you are arguing is that the government should decide who may marry based on your religious beliefs and to impose those beliefs upon others.
When you claim that being attracted to persons of your same sex is disordered you are basing this on what? This is not the view of any major medical group.
@havock89 my statement was a bit petty, which I regret. The substance of the message is what's most concerning. I spent 10 years in Catholic school and am still amazed at the Catholic church's steadfast commitment to yesterday in a changing world. Catholics are scripting their own demise if they don't realize that bigotry in America is going away - the trends are clear - marriage equality in the US
@mpls1121 Thats an amazing statement, and shows you have no idea why the church teaches what it does, and you had little or no understanding of the faith when you "were" catholic.
We hold that you cannot redefine marriage, because marriage is something that stems from humanity itself. No government, no religion can. It is a grevious injustice for the state to redefine marraige and a grevious theft for the gay lobby to do so. We hold stedfast to the truth, the reality and not fashions.
@havock89 Theft? Get it though your thick skull that civil marriage is not the same as the sacrament of marriage and this issue will make more sense to you. Real things happen to people like my partner and I. In the event of the death, the surviving partners are often stripped of their possessions, denied inheritance, pensions, retirement funds, and whatever they do get is triple-taxed. Sometime they are even denied the right to attend their loved one's funeral.
@danndavbmann At no point did I mention the sacrament of marriage. I am talking about marriage as a human expression of humanity. Not the injustice levied on others concerning marriage.
A contract surfices for inheritence and for funeral rights. you are a wolf in sheeps clothing. Your lies are transparent to me.
@havock89 Firstly, with a civil marriage these protections are automatically put into place with very little financial burden. Establishing these contractual protections outside of marriage is costly and expensive. Furthermore, there are many rights and benefits that can not be obtained regardless of what contracts you may sign. There is no replacement for civil marriage at present.
@SpeedyBruin I am unconcerned with what people "want". I am concerned with the injustice of people who "want" something getting the state to steal it for them and making it respectable. The gay lobby is usurping marriage for then own twisted ends. A gay person can get married, as soon as they choose to do so to an appropriate person of the opposite sex.
You condone theft, and the thieves that do the dirty work and the thieves that take their ill-gotten gains.
@havock89 Extending civil marriage (emphasis on civil) is equivalent to theft? What are these nefarious 'twisted ends'? Just like straight couples you're talking about people that simply wish to live their lives together. What do you think the motivation to get married is for a gay or lesbian American who wishes to?
@SpeedyBruin Straight couples are not married. Usurping that which you dont rightly deserve is theft. Gay people can get married as soon as they do so to an appropriate person of the opposite sex. For that is what marriage is. The US government has no right to alter the definition of marriage and it is a travesty of justice that this as been allowed.
I couldnt care less what their "motivation" is. Theft is theft.
@havock89 We're talking about civil marriage (a collection of governmental rights and benefits) Unless you think that social security benefits and hospital visitation 'stem from humanity' you are most likely conflating civil and religious marriage.
@SpeedyBruin Marriage is not a set of governmental rights and benefits. I reject your desolate view of marriage. Elements that stem directly from our humanity, like marraige, do not sit on the bedrock of either religion or state. Neither does parenthood. Neither does ceremonial burial.
@SpeedyBruin The US is not the world nor is it representitive of humanity. Why ask stupid questions that have no relevance to the topic being discussed?
@havock89 Again if we could set aside the name calling and be productive please. Civil marriage in any country, not just the US, is the collection of rights and benefits offered by the government, not god, of that particular county. This isn't an opinion or really debatable.
@SpeedyBruin I am not calling YOU stupid in the comment, but your idea is stupid. It is indeed stupid to include things that have no relevance on what is being discusses. Dont give orders on my channel.
Marriage exists where there is no government. All cultures all societies conceived of marriage independent of a state and then states were formed which codified what marriage was, and should always be.
Again you mention God. Where I have not. Why do you keep conflating the argument?
Whenever I hear people rave about liberty I cringe. It is obvious from this clip that to you, liberty means having the freedom to impose your religious beliefs on people you don't like, and when they object you think they are being bigoted. Apparently you are not aware of gay bashing and bullying of GLBT kids. Such bullying is abusive. It is a good thing for GLBT kids and their straight peers to learn at an early age how to treat each other respectfully.
@birdznkatz Well you would be wrong. I dont dislike gay people at all. I have three gay friends. You are obviously not aware of the catholic bashing and hateful bigotry directed against priests. All throughout the 20th century literally tens of thousands of priests have been persecuted, murdered and beaten to death (in europe) far more than have occured for gay people.
I am all for respect. But am I "allowed" the freedom to disagree that "a gay lifestyle is a good thing?"
@havock89 You should consider that letting people live their own life is a good thing. So you're against "the gay lifestyle". Great for you. I'm against your lifestyle. Does that mean I get to take away your rights?
@danndavbmann You do realise you are watching "catholic news" Yes? You do therefore realise that catholics are called to be holy an chaste. That christ said fornicators and adulterors cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, yes?
Our rights have been taken away. the schools the catholc church has made have been secularised, our voice has been silenced, our priests persecuted and murdered, our churchs vandalised, our children indoctrinated into the stealth religion of secular humanism.
@havock89 Religion has no place in public schools. Otherwise, it is what ever religion, non-religion, or Christian denomination happens to be dominant. Imagine being a Catholic kid in public school being told you're going to hell for being Catholic. What justification could the constitution possibly offer for government funded religious education? There is none. That secularism you doth protest too much is in place for no reason other than to respect individual religious belief.
@danndavbmann Public schools were originally all religious schools. I reject that assertion. That is the statement of the irreligious subjugating Christianity. It JUST SO HAPPENS that hospitals, school, universities, the sciences, the open market are all products of christianity, and you have NO IDEA what the church teaches about hell and why.
Our rights have been taken. Our stamp on society has been demonstrably erased by secular humanism - a religion of self-justification and realtivism.
@havock89 By the way - I appreciate that you allow comments on this site. So many conservative sites do not allow comments and discussion. We disagree, but at least you do not cut off the discussion.
@havock89 Maybe you have three gay friends, but do you tell them that you don't want them to have equal rights because there is something wrong with them? I am well aware of the persecution of priests. I knew priests who were arrested and tortured when Communists took over China. I know that priests were persecuted in Hitler's regime as were many gay people. I question where you got the tens of thousands number however. I know priests who were murdered by death squads in Latin America.
@birdznkatz I only cut off discussion after I get bored with it (which is invariably after it becomes circular) or someone is excessively rude. I understand that this is an emotive topic.
Two of my friends actually agree with me, to a lesser or greater degree and the third does not, but he understands where I am coming from. However several of my other friends vehemently do not agree with me. Strange huh?
Priests even today are being murdered all over the world. Watch more catholic news.
Of course you are "allowed" the freedom to disagree that "a gay lifestyle is a good thing." But you are trying to enshrine your religious beliefs in law to restrict the rights of those of us who are gay and who find that our lives and loves are precious. Why are the bishops so vocal in opposing rights for gay people and so silent when young people are murdered and beaten and commit suicide? (By the way - some people say "I'm not a racist, I have black friends."
@birdznkatz Actually I am not allowed that freedom. Our own schools are being forced to shut down because of that which the "stealth religion" of secular humanism has enshrined ie homosexuality, contraception and abortion. Our adoption agencies are being forced to close. Our ability to parent has been questioned. Our abilty to care for the homeless has been destroyed. We can do nothing in any public arena, because we are religiously Christian.
@havock89 Of course you are allowed that freedom. Catholic schools are shut down because parents are not sending their children there or moving to other areas. Bishops are making decisions to close adoption agencies that are receiving public funding rather than abide by nondiscrimination laws. They want to refuse to place children with gay couples rather than keep them open. I for one do not want my taxes going to pay for discrimination against my people. If you get tax money, you abide by law.
@birdznkatz you dont have a "People" YOU are not defined by who you are attracted to. you have a disordered desire which you choose to let rule your life. there is nothing noble or honorable about that, anymore than there is in incest.
I for one DO want my taxes going to adoption agencies like those of the catholic church. and I for one DONT want MY taxes going towards people who are incapable of making good judgements on how to live their life. The minority should not rule over the majority.
@havock89 You don't even know me. You don't have a clue about those of us who are LGBT or our relationships despite claiming to have 3 gay friends. Any agency that takes tax money to provide a service has to follow the rules. If the rules say don't discriminate, you can't discriminate or you lose your contract. If you don't want to follow the rules, you can give up the tax money and the contract. And as far as my desires being "disordered," that is your religious belief, not mine.
@birdznkatz Your right. I dont know you, and you dont know me. Now you have established the obvious. whats the point you were trying to make?
The rules that have been set up are not appropriate for catholic agencies. Why should the minority rule over the majority? The state exists to serve society not special intrerest groups in socatiety. Catholic agencies exist to serve catholics, not what you would have them serve. The state is requiring that we ignore our conscience on morality. Its wrong
@havock89 So if the majority of people in a town or a state decide that public schools should teach Protestant beliefs you would agree with that? If the people in this country were to vote to charge taxes to Catholic institutions you would agree to that? So laws enacted by the representatives of the people requiring institutions that have contracts with the city or state to abide by civil laws are bad because you want a religious exception? We live in a pluralistic, not a catholic society.
@birdznkatz Well they kinda do already. Your emotive comments show exactly what your perverted views are. If I were arguing for a catholic state, there would be far more things that I would want. We simply want to be able to follow our faith without interference from other sections of society that want to force their weak morality on us. Call it an exception if you like.
ahh the HATEFUL CHILD MOLLESTING CATHOLIC church - trying to take the HIGH road........go away! You have NO Authority over anyone..you lying Child destroyers!
@rextrek Thats not true. Catholic teaching has authority over catholics, thats over a billion people btw. We DO try to take the high road. Catholiicism calls the church to holiness. Thats a high benchmark.
Secular teachers are 300 times greater sexual abusers of children that the catholic clergy are. Its bigoted to label all catholics child molesters, and even more criminal to ignore the vile crimes of secular teachers, who are the real perversion and monsters in society.
It is ridiculous to accuse gay people as a whole of employing hate speech immediately before you drag out the old stereotype of gay men "targeting" children. This may come as a surprise, but gay people have families and as parents and children. A teacher may very well need to address this as it is a reality of life and considering the bigotry that is unfortunately so common (on this youtube clip for example). Finally, claiming that Obama uses scare tactics while praising Gingrich is ridiculous.
@SpeedyBruin I have been subjected to a great deal of hate speech from gay people. Gay men do target children. It does happen. Secular teachers are 300 times greater sexual abusers of children that the catholic clergy are. Its bigoted to label all catholics child molesters, and even more criminal to ignore the vile crimes of secular teachers, who are the real perversion and monsters in society.
@havock89 Please cite to me a single credible study that indicates that gay men target, by which I assume you mean abuse, children with a greater frequency than straight men. If you are going to drag out that repeatedly debunked lie I'm going to ask that you support it.
I'm not sure what you're taking about as far as bigotry as I never said that 'all catholics are child molesters'. However, again I'd ask that you support your claim that the rate of child molestation is linked to religiosity.
@SpeedyBruin I am talking about my own personal experiences and knowledge. I dont need to cite any authority to convince "myself" that what I am saying is true.
At what point do you imagine, foolishly, that this conversation became about my having to convince you? I have my opinions, and I know what I know.
@havock89 "Secular teachers are 300 times greater sexual abusers" You gave a specific number and presented this as though it were fact, rather than opinion. If you simply are ignorant of the facts in this matter I would steer you to statements made by the American Academy of Pediatricians, the American Psychological Association, and the research of A. Nicholas Groth.
Child abuse is a very serious accusation and it is indeed hateful to spread known falsehoods in order to defame gay people.
@SpeedyBruin Secular school teachers were a side not (Shakeshaft report 2004 for the US governemt) My own opinion was on the hebephile abuse of gay men and women in the world, of which I have some experience of.
@havock89 We seem to be in agreement then on the lack of evidence to support the claim that gay men are at heightened risk of committing abuse? If so then why are you still especially concerned with abuse committed specifically by this demographic, rather than abuse more generally?
If you are saying you were victimized then I am sorry that happened to you.
@SpeedyBruin At no point were you the arbiter of truth. My experiences are valid evidence for me, and I have had plenty of them. I am GLAD to hear you are sorry for children who have been abused by gay people. Now what are you going to do about it?
@SpeedyBruin Now you have accepted that gay people abuse children. I exptect you to no longer defend them in the public arena. I dont have blind hatred of gay people. I have knowledge of gay people who they are and what they do. I have toletated your "blind" accusations for long enough.
And all of that Newt's cheating is fine and dandy, as well as his two dissolved marriages. Yeap. Because he's against "teh gays". I wonder how long before he cheats on his third wife.
@olterigo Why oh why would you make a sweeping judgement like that?
As a recent convert to the faith, I hope he doesnt cheat on his wife, he is now (having gone through the RCIA process) aware of what the church teaches and is fully responsible for his actions. If he does, he is accountable for it.
Cheating on your wife is not "fine and dandy". Stop being a jerk.
2. Oh, what a fine advert for Gingrich, Catholic Church, and Vatican's pretend stance on marriage! The man who had sex with one woman while his legal wife (first and if they were Catholic at the time - only wife!) was fighting cancer in the hospital. Then he cheated on his second wife too with a staffer. Mind you - a Catholic staffer! And all of this affair right through the Clinton scandals - as Newt was denouncing Clinton!
Mind you my family is Catholic and fully accepting of me for who I am. I imagine that is something you would take issue with, but they do not. Jesus taught that we should all love each other unconditionally and judge not lest ye be judged. Is that not true? You cannot see the person behind what you consider to be a sin because you are so obsessed with the sin. We're not bad people, and whatever message of acceptance you take issue with us pushing, you only do because you hate.
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann I am accepting of everyone I meet. You have no idea what you are talkig about. I have friends who are gay, I have friends who are living in sin. I do not harrang them, but we have had conversations on the subject. That is the way they want to live and that is not the way I want to live or how I want my family to live.
I never asserted you were bad people. I think you have a victim complex. I do not confuse the person with the sin. You do that, not me. I dont hate either.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Fair enough, but you do a grave injustice to your friends with the message that gay people are corrupt, after children, that homosexuality is a choice, and that homosexuals should not have the same right to marriage as heterosexuals do. If you were truly concerned for the well-being of gay people, that we're gay aside, you should want to help, not penalize our community. It isn't a victim mentality per se- we are at times victims of prejudice of a kind that you apparently support.
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann I dont say that gay people are corrupt. Just that those that live a homosexual lifestyle are living in sin. I dont say homosexuality is a choice, just living a homosexual lifestyle is a choice. I dont say homosexuals should not have the right to marry, just that they should not pervert and mutilate marriage to suit their own self-indulgent ends.
I am not concerned about the well-being of gay people anymore than they are for me. Well being is your concern. Society is my concern.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Then I am left to wonder what qualifies to you as a "homosexual lifestyle". My lifestyle is pretty lame. I wake up, get dressed, shower, and I'm off to the cubical. On weekends I have a night out at the pub with friends and on Sundays my partner and I head to church and then out to Sunday brunch. The only thing supposedly "sinful" going on here is that I am in a committed monogamous relationship with another man. Big deal. There is no such thing as a victimless crime.
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann Ignoring all the other claptrap you entered in order to obfuscate the issue - So your response to sexual immorality is, "big deal". That says everything that needs to be said.
If you dont want to be chaste and hence not want to be a faithful catholic. that is your choice. The consequences for that choice are yours also. You love god so little, that you would turn away from Him in order to satisfy the disordered desire of your flesh. Your choices will echo into eternity.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 What you just said could not be further from the truth. I left Catholicism because do not believe in a God of petty jealousy, double standards, condemnation, and bigotry. My relationship with God is a personal one. So is yours. How dare you judge that and even by the tenets of your own faith, it is a sin to do so. I am in a monogamous relationship; married to my partner by my church, and while I was not chaste as I should have been prior, I am faithful to him and will remain so.
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann You have no teaching authority. You are not in a position to tell me anything about God. You cannot be married to another man. That is not what marriage is. You have usurped that which by your own choices you have no right to. You are a thief and a liar, and i do not recognise this petty, double standards god you speak of. That is not the god of the apostles that is not the god of the creed. That is not the god of catholicism. You have turned away from The Lord in the Eucharist.
havock89 9 months ago
stop the hate!!!
cap020570 9 months ago
@cap020570 Yes, STOP THE HATE! (I used capitals! Nerr!)
havock89 9 months ago
the spammer made me believe that "catholic roundup" meant something like the quarantining of catholics. i clicked the link for this???!!?!?!
ShpinxiLotus23 9 months ago
@ShpinxiLotus23 Good example of hatred, prejudice and bigotry from ShpinxiLotus23.
havock89 9 months ago
another hateful video
ucistu 9 months ago
@ucistu Rubbish.
havock89 9 months ago
As someone who was raised Catholic, attended Catholic School for twelve years, and happens to also be gay, I cringe at the thought of what I might have done as a teenager responding to such hatred as is demonstrated in this video. It is hatred, and to call it anything else especially while demonizing the gay community and distorting the facts is as despicable as the act is audacious. This video is not something that I believe Jesus would have approved of.
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann OK. Point out to me, specifically, what is hatred.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Hatred is like what happened after I was expelled in retrospect for leaving my Catholic High School because a student reported to faculty that I'm gay. I lost my funding for college because of that. Otherwise, this video demonstrates hatred in its attempt at offering proof that gay people are after children. It simply is not true, and such claims are made in an attempt at disparaging us along with the use of the phrase "homosexual activist".
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann Are you really that stupid?
The catholic church holds certain things to be true. If you remove yourself from that body of believers by living a lifestyle that is not compatible with those beliefs, YOU are responsible for that. YOU hate what the chruch teaches and YOU hate the self-sacrifice you have been called to in order to remain chaste. YOU have no right to the benefits that come with being a faithful catholic. Have some integrity and stop whining like a child.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Sexual orientation is widely believed by the vast majority of psychologists to be either unchangeable or extremely difficult to change (there is to date no credible evidence that it can be changed). You're talking about children brought up in the church because it is part of their community, family, or culture. These are people who do not choose to be gay and you then present them with the choice of a life of celibacy or a sham marriage. To dismiss their suffering as 'whining' is cruel
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin There are three real life examples that I personally know of where homosexuality has been overcome.
The whinning I was talking about was specifically to do with Danndavbmanns reasoning based on the fact that he no longer wanted to be a faithful catholic and then cried fowl because he lost his scholarship. I am not dismissing his suffering, I am telling him to be accountable for his actions and choices. All catholics are called to be chaste. Its not an "option".
Why Interject?
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Here is a key distinction: unchaste Catholics are not denied marriage on that basis, but many such as yourself find that this is a basis for denying lgbt Americans the right to marry.
I'm sure you know people who, under great pressure in their communities, claim to no longer be attracted to people of the same sex, but simply saying so or perhaps no longer perusing relationships with others of the same sex does not necessarily mean those attraction are not still there.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin Thats stupid and you know it. Stop hopscotiching from one subject matter to another. You are intellectually dishonest. LGBTs can get married as soon as they choose to do so to a person of the opposite sex. For that is what marriage IS.
Your arrogance is astounding, and you are utterly wrong.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 I'd like to keep to the facts as much as possible. I know you denounced 'excessive rudeness' in one of your other comments and I think throwing words like 'arrogant' and 'stupid' at me is unproductive.
That said I think I addressed your point fairly directly. Do you dispute the American Psychological Association's statement that sexual orientation is either fixed or extremely difficult to change and that there is no evidence to date that it can be?
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin OK. Ill talk about my religion briefly, but it is not related to this topic.
I believe that without the grace of god, it is nearly impossible to change your sexual orientation. I think with the grace of god it is difficult but doable. However I have never said or implied that catholics must CHANGE their orientation. Just not live a sinful lifestyle. Being gay in catholicism is referred to as "intrinsically disordered" however it is an accident of nature and is NOT itself sinful.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 The problem with this is that there are indeed people who offer faith-based therapies to change sexual orientation, Exodus for example. However, there is no evidence that these therapies are effective and may in fact be harmful.
However, I do not believe that this religious reasoning should be the basis of governmental policy.
On a more human note, imagine being labeled by your community as being 'intrinsically disordered' or in your words being permanently an 'accident of nature'.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin Why are you mentioning the bible? Are you a believer? If so you're a very poor one.
Why are you now moving back on to a poltical issue using religion as the context of your comment?
Your emotive argument is nonsense. We are all intrinsically disordered. This shows how incredibly ignorant you are of orthodox catholicism.
My political views are not to be conflated with my religion. They are not up for discussion. I do not cast pearls before swine.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 The scholarship I lost was state funded, and I lost it because of a school policy that expelled students were discredited of their courses during the semester they were let go. I had taken my courses in full and having decided I was not comfortable at the school, I left on my own accord. The expulsion happened a month later after a student told faculty I was gay. Neither myself nor my parents were informed and the news came 1 yr later in the form of a revised transcript 1 month b4 grad
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann Riiiiiggghht...
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Go ahead and dismiss what I have said. The expulsion and subsequent dis-accreditation happened just as I described it and it cost me a state funded scholarship. I see you really don't care what happens to gay people in real life because of being who we are. Neither do I assume you really care about society as a whole because the well-being of society begins with protecting the rights the individual. The callous disregard you have demonstrated here is all I needed to see. Catcha later!
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann You are absolutely right. I dont know you, and I dont know that anything you have detailed is true. So I cannot take you at your word. I will treat what you have said with callous disregard because I have no way of making a comparison and determining the truth of what you have said. Do you honestly expect me to be so soft in the head as to do otherwise? Grow up.
I have nothing against you, but neither do I have anything "for" you.
Have a nice life.
havock89 9 months ago
@danndavbmann Secondly. I know what this news cast says is true, because I have experienced it myself. So I know what you are saying is a lie. Homosexual activism spreads its message far an wide, that the homosexual lifestyle is good and normal. I dont believe that to be true. It is a self-justification of a disordered nature, and we faithful catholics DO NOT WANT our children exposed to this lie. Its not hateful, its just how we want to live our lives and order our families.
THATS OUR RIGHT.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 The right to marry has nothing to do with the way you chose to order your family. IT has everything to do with how other people order theirs. What you are arguing is that the government should decide who may marry based on your religious beliefs and to impose those beliefs upon others.
When you claim that being attracted to persons of your same sex is disordered you are basing this on what? This is not the view of any major medical group.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin I never said it did. You are conflating different topics of discussion. Interjecting where you have no right to.
Why interject? Start your own comment.
havock89 9 months ago
Loooooooooool is this real?
yeahcatyeah 9 months ago
Comment removed
mpls1121 9 months ago
@mpls1121 In addition to being a dishonest idiot, you are unaware this is his first week on the job. He's finding his feet :-)
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 my statement was a bit petty, which I regret. The substance of the message is what's most concerning. I spent 10 years in Catholic school and am still amazed at the Catholic church's steadfast commitment to yesterday in a changing world. Catholics are scripting their own demise if they don't realize that bigotry in America is going away - the trends are clear - marriage equality in the US
is a matter of when, not if.
mpls1121 9 months ago
@mpls1121 Thats an amazing statement, and shows you have no idea why the church teaches what it does, and you had little or no understanding of the faith when you "were" catholic.
We hold that you cannot redefine marriage, because marriage is something that stems from humanity itself. No government, no religion can. It is a grevious injustice for the state to redefine marraige and a grevious theft for the gay lobby to do so. We hold stedfast to the truth, the reality and not fashions.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Theft? Get it though your thick skull that civil marriage is not the same as the sacrament of marriage and this issue will make more sense to you. Real things happen to people like my partner and I. In the event of the death, the surviving partners are often stripped of their possessions, denied inheritance, pensions, retirement funds, and whatever they do get is triple-taxed. Sometime they are even denied the right to attend their loved one's funeral.
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann At no point did I mention the sacrament of marriage. I am talking about marriage as a human expression of humanity. Not the injustice levied on others concerning marriage.
A contract surfices for inheritence and for funeral rights. you are a wolf in sheeps clothing. Your lies are transparent to me.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Firstly, with a civil marriage these protections are automatically put into place with very little financial burden. Establishing these contractual protections outside of marriage is costly and expensive. Furthermore, there are many rights and benefits that can not be obtained regardless of what contracts you may sign. There is no replacement for civil marriage at present.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin I am unconcerned with what people "want". I am concerned with the injustice of people who "want" something getting the state to steal it for them and making it respectable. The gay lobby is usurping marriage for then own twisted ends. A gay person can get married, as soon as they choose to do so to an appropriate person of the opposite sex.
You condone theft, and the thieves that do the dirty work and the thieves that take their ill-gotten gains.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Extending civil marriage (emphasis on civil) is equivalent to theft? What are these nefarious 'twisted ends'? Just like straight couples you're talking about people that simply wish to live their lives together. What do you think the motivation to get married is for a gay or lesbian American who wishes to?
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin Straight couples are not married. Usurping that which you dont rightly deserve is theft. Gay people can get married as soon as they do so to an appropriate person of the opposite sex. For that is what marriage is. The US government has no right to alter the definition of marriage and it is a travesty of justice that this as been allowed.
I couldnt care less what their "motivation" is. Theft is theft.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 We're talking about civil marriage (a collection of governmental rights and benefits) Unless you think that social security benefits and hospital visitation 'stem from humanity' you are most likely conflating civil and religious marriage.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin Marriage is not a set of governmental rights and benefits. I reject your desolate view of marriage. Elements that stem directly from our humanity, like marraige, do not sit on the bedrock of either religion or state. Neither does parenthood. Neither does ceremonial burial.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Can you find any of this in the laws of the United States?
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin The US is not the world nor is it representitive of humanity. Why ask stupid questions that have no relevance to the topic being discussed?
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Again if we could set aside the name calling and be productive please. Civil marriage in any country, not just the US, is the collection of rights and benefits offered by the government, not god, of that particular county. This isn't an opinion or really debatable.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin I am not calling YOU stupid in the comment, but your idea is stupid. It is indeed stupid to include things that have no relevance on what is being discusses. Dont give orders on my channel.
Marriage exists where there is no government. All cultures all societies conceived of marriage independent of a state and then states were formed which codified what marriage was, and should always be.
Again you mention God. Where I have not. Why do you keep conflating the argument?
havock89 9 months ago
Whenever I hear people rave about liberty I cringe. It is obvious from this clip that to you, liberty means having the freedom to impose your religious beliefs on people you don't like, and when they object you think they are being bigoted. Apparently you are not aware of gay bashing and bullying of GLBT kids. Such bullying is abusive. It is a good thing for GLBT kids and their straight peers to learn at an early age how to treat each other respectfully.
birdznkatz 9 months ago 2
@birdznkatz Well you would be wrong. I dont dislike gay people at all. I have three gay friends. You are obviously not aware of the catholic bashing and hateful bigotry directed against priests. All throughout the 20th century literally tens of thousands of priests have been persecuted, murdered and beaten to death (in europe) far more than have occured for gay people.
I am all for respect. But am I "allowed" the freedom to disagree that "a gay lifestyle is a good thing?"
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Gay friends my ass. You have no gay friends to be anti-gay yourself.
HenhousetheRed 9 months ago
@havock89 You should consider that letting people live their own life is a good thing. So you're against "the gay lifestyle". Great for you. I'm against your lifestyle. Does that mean I get to take away your rights?
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann You do realise you are watching "catholic news" Yes? You do therefore realise that catholics are called to be holy an chaste. That christ said fornicators and adulterors cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, yes?
Our rights have been taken away. the schools the catholc church has made have been secularised, our voice has been silenced, our priests persecuted and murdered, our churchs vandalised, our children indoctrinated into the stealth religion of secular humanism.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Religion has no place in public schools. Otherwise, it is what ever religion, non-religion, or Christian denomination happens to be dominant. Imagine being a Catholic kid in public school being told you're going to hell for being Catholic. What justification could the constitution possibly offer for government funded religious education? There is none. That secularism you doth protest too much is in place for no reason other than to respect individual religious belief.
danndavbmann 9 months ago
@danndavbmann Public schools were originally all religious schools. I reject that assertion. That is the statement of the irreligious subjugating Christianity. It JUST SO HAPPENS that hospitals, school, universities, the sciences, the open market are all products of christianity, and you have NO IDEA what the church teaches about hell and why.
Our rights have been taken. Our stamp on society has been demonstrably erased by secular humanism - a religion of self-justification and realtivism.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 By the way - I appreciate that you allow comments on this site. So many conservative sites do not allow comments and discussion. We disagree, but at least you do not cut off the discussion.
birdznkatz 9 months ago
@havock89 Maybe you have three gay friends, but do you tell them that you don't want them to have equal rights because there is something wrong with them? I am well aware of the persecution of priests. I knew priests who were arrested and tortured when Communists took over China. I know that priests were persecuted in Hitler's regime as were many gay people. I question where you got the tens of thousands number however. I know priests who were murdered by death squads in Latin America.
birdznkatz 9 months ago
@birdznkatz I only cut off discussion after I get bored with it (which is invariably after it becomes circular) or someone is excessively rude. I understand that this is an emotive topic.
Two of my friends actually agree with me, to a lesser or greater degree and the third does not, but he understands where I am coming from. However several of my other friends vehemently do not agree with me. Strange huh?
Priests even today are being murdered all over the world. Watch more catholic news.
havock89 9 months ago
Of course you are "allowed" the freedom to disagree that "a gay lifestyle is a good thing." But you are trying to enshrine your religious beliefs in law to restrict the rights of those of us who are gay and who find that our lives and loves are precious. Why are the bishops so vocal in opposing rights for gay people and so silent when young people are murdered and beaten and commit suicide? (By the way - some people say "I'm not a racist, I have black friends."
birdznkatz 9 months ago
@birdznkatz Actually I am not allowed that freedom. Our own schools are being forced to shut down because of that which the "stealth religion" of secular humanism has enshrined ie homosexuality, contraception and abortion. Our adoption agencies are being forced to close. Our ability to parent has been questioned. Our abilty to care for the homeless has been destroyed. We can do nothing in any public arena, because we are religiously Christian.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Of course you are allowed that freedom. Catholic schools are shut down because parents are not sending their children there or moving to other areas. Bishops are making decisions to close adoption agencies that are receiving public funding rather than abide by nondiscrimination laws. They want to refuse to place children with gay couples rather than keep them open. I for one do not want my taxes going to pay for discrimination against my people. If you get tax money, you abide by law.
birdznkatz 9 months ago
@birdznkatz you dont have a "People" YOU are not defined by who you are attracted to. you have a disordered desire which you choose to let rule your life. there is nothing noble or honorable about that, anymore than there is in incest.
I for one DO want my taxes going to adoption agencies like those of the catholic church. and I for one DONT want MY taxes going towards people who are incapable of making good judgements on how to live their life. The minority should not rule over the majority.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 You don't even know me. You don't have a clue about those of us who are LGBT or our relationships despite claiming to have 3 gay friends. Any agency that takes tax money to provide a service has to follow the rules. If the rules say don't discriminate, you can't discriminate or you lose your contract. If you don't want to follow the rules, you can give up the tax money and the contract. And as far as my desires being "disordered," that is your religious belief, not mine.
birdznkatz 9 months ago
@birdznkatz Your right. I dont know you, and you dont know me. Now you have established the obvious. whats the point you were trying to make?
The rules that have been set up are not appropriate for catholic agencies. Why should the minority rule over the majority? The state exists to serve society not special intrerest groups in socatiety. Catholic agencies exist to serve catholics, not what you would have them serve. The state is requiring that we ignore our conscience on morality. Its wrong
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 So if the majority of people in a town or a state decide that public schools should teach Protestant beliefs you would agree with that? If the people in this country were to vote to charge taxes to Catholic institutions you would agree to that? So laws enacted by the representatives of the people requiring institutions that have contracts with the city or state to abide by civil laws are bad because you want a religious exception? We live in a pluralistic, not a catholic society.
birdznkatz 9 months ago
@birdznkatz Well they kinda do already. Your emotive comments show exactly what your perverted views are. If I were arguing for a catholic state, there would be far more things that I would want. We simply want to be able to follow our faith without interference from other sections of society that want to force their weak morality on us. Call it an exception if you like.
havock89 9 months ago
Comment removed
cdramella 9 months ago
ahh the HATEFUL CHILD MOLLESTING CATHOLIC church - trying to take the HIGH road........go away! You have NO Authority over anyone..you lying Child destroyers!
rextrek 9 months ago
@rextrek Thats not true. Catholic teaching has authority over catholics, thats over a billion people btw. We DO try to take the high road. Catholiicism calls the church to holiness. Thats a high benchmark.
Secular teachers are 300 times greater sexual abusers of children that the catholic clergy are. Its bigoted to label all catholics child molesters, and even more criminal to ignore the vile crimes of secular teachers, who are the real perversion and monsters in society.
havock89 9 months ago
It is ridiculous to accuse gay people as a whole of employing hate speech immediately before you drag out the old stereotype of gay men "targeting" children. This may come as a surprise, but gay people have families and as parents and children. A teacher may very well need to address this as it is a reality of life and considering the bigotry that is unfortunately so common (on this youtube clip for example). Finally, claiming that Obama uses scare tactics while praising Gingrich is ridiculous.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago 3
@SpeedyBruin I have been subjected to a great deal of hate speech from gay people. Gay men do target children. It does happen. Secular teachers are 300 times greater sexual abusers of children that the catholic clergy are. Its bigoted to label all catholics child molesters, and even more criminal to ignore the vile crimes of secular teachers, who are the real perversion and monsters in society.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 Please cite to me a single credible study that indicates that gay men target, by which I assume you mean abuse, children with a greater frequency than straight men. If you are going to drag out that repeatedly debunked lie I'm going to ask that you support it.
I'm not sure what you're taking about as far as bigotry as I never said that 'all catholics are child molesters'. However, again I'd ask that you support your claim that the rate of child molestation is linked to religiosity.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin Sorry with the comment approval I can't recall if I have asked you for follow up on these unsupported claims of child abuse.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin I am talking about my own personal experiences and knowledge. I dont need to cite any authority to convince "myself" that what I am saying is true.
At what point do you imagine, foolishly, that this conversation became about my having to convince you? I have my opinions, and I know what I know.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 "Secular teachers are 300 times greater sexual abusers" You gave a specific number and presented this as though it were fact, rather than opinion. If you simply are ignorant of the facts in this matter I would steer you to statements made by the American Academy of Pediatricians, the American Psychological Association, and the research of A. Nicholas Groth.
Child abuse is a very serious accusation and it is indeed hateful to spread known falsehoods in order to defame gay people.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin Secular school teachers were a side not (Shakeshaft report 2004 for the US governemt) My own opinion was on the hebephile abuse of gay men and women in the world, of which I have some experience of.
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 We seem to be in agreement then on the lack of evidence to support the claim that gay men are at heightened risk of committing abuse? If so then why are you still especially concerned with abuse committed specifically by this demographic, rather than abuse more generally?
If you are saying you were victimized then I am sorry that happened to you.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin At no point were you the arbiter of truth. My experiences are valid evidence for me, and I have had plenty of them. I am GLAD to hear you are sorry for children who have been abused by gay people. Now what are you going to do about it?
havock89 9 months ago
@havock89 I am sorry that this experience has left you with a blind hatred for gay people.
SpeedyBruin 9 months ago
@SpeedyBruin Now you have accepted that gay people abuse children. I exptect you to no longer defend them in the public arena. I dont have blind hatred of gay people. I have knowledge of gay people who they are and what they do. I have toletated your "blind" accusations for long enough.
Have a nice life.
havock89 9 months ago
And all of that Newt's cheating is fine and dandy, as well as his two dissolved marriages. Yeap. Because he's against "teh gays". I wonder how long before he cheats on his third wife.
olterigo 9 months ago 6
@olterigo Why oh why would you make a sweeping judgement like that?
As a recent convert to the faith, I hope he doesnt cheat on his wife, he is now (having gone through the RCIA process) aware of what the church teaches and is fully responsible for his actions. If he does, he is accountable for it.
Cheating on your wife is not "fine and dandy". Stop being a jerk.
havock89 9 months ago
1. Learn to read the words you see written.
2. Oh, what a fine advert for Gingrich, Catholic Church, and Vatican's pretend stance on marriage! The man who had sex with one woman while his legal wife (first and if they were Catholic at the time - only wife!) was fighting cancer in the hospital. Then he cheated on his second wife too with a staffer. Mind you - a Catholic staffer! And all of this affair right through the Clinton scandals - as Newt was denouncing Clinton!
What upstanding Catholics
olterigo 9 months ago 6
@olterigo I wasnt aware of that. Sarcasm aside, hanks for sharing.
havock89 9 months ago