Really? An infinite punishment for a finite crime?

[painlessguy]

Another thing how was eating the fruit in the garden a sin? Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong. So now you are saying it's just to eternally punish the ignorant. You Christians are awesome. Eternally punish the finite sin of belief and the ignorant... then have the gall to call it just.

[painlessguy]

Your rules you play by them...

[painlessguy]

The only sin that sends you to hell is unbelief according to your book. So if I am an eternal being and I go to hell my unbelief would obviously end at the Judgement seat. So I'm spending eternity for my finite unbelief. Murderer's as long as they repent of their sins and accept Jesus through a prayer will go to heaven. Anyone that would give eternal punishment is not just and does not deserve worship.  Even abortion will not send you to hell. It is only unbelief and the rejection of Christ.

[cwross1976]

proof... evidence... does anyone have any? no, niether side. the best atheists can muster is the farce that is evolution (genetics...? an increase in data?) and christians don't even have to prove anything as their's is a position based on religious faith, ie just belief, no science...

[dmnemaine]

Who cares about all this? Here is the crux of the matter. You have no evidence to support the existence of a deity. Until you can produce that evidence, there is no reason to believe that such a deity exists. That's it. No evidence equals all your discussion about God is moot.

[ddjrlikeshugz]

so explain to me how ALL atheists are rotten trees if rotten trees are disobedient, rebellious, and evil.

and what are the defining characteristics of a 'rotten tree'?

and what about the good tree? when the fruit falls, does it not bruise?

and god forces himself into a paradoxical situation, he loves us, but condemns some of us to hell, thereby upsetting him. So God himself sins. and sometimes god kills babies too... (miscarriage, stillbirth) and that stays with the mother forever...

[mousiedung100]

Please show chapter and verse of the bible that says the world is round and the ones that back up your other claims. If the church understood astronomy, why was Galileo called a heretic? Not all calendars start with Jesus. Chinese? Hebrew? What real historians acknowledge the worldwide flood of Noah's day? By the way, global genocide seems like a sin that might deserve infinite punishment.

There's no proof of god or that the bible is god's word. There are no miracles.

[redcommander27]

Another objection of mine is that the sins are finite as those they harm will die, and that the punishment of physical torture is unjust.

[redcommander27]

I think your argument is interesting as it takes more of a virtue ethics view of justice rather than a deontoligcal one. My key objection is that if the rotten tree is being punished for its refusal to change and its existence is eternal, why can't it be given the opportunity to change in the next life if this one is so short and insignificant in comparison?

[mousiedung100]

I'm sorry, everything you say is just something you believe. You have no factual basis for anything you say. That makes for a poor argument. The bible is not an authoritative source. It's just a book written centuries ago by people.

[sidrojoe]

@mousiedung100

Yes everything he says is something he believes, just as everything you say is something you belive. The Bible said the earth was round thousands of yrs before man discoved it, blood was the lifesource of the body, water cycles that provide rain, the earth hung upon nothing in the solar system, all calendars began at the birth of Christ, historians [christian and non christians alike] acknowledge the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ, the flood of Noahs day, etc,etc.

[TheEd0206]

The bible says there is such thig as the end of the world or armagedon, the negative reprocaution of a crime is not infinite. It will be finite, when the world ends, when armagedon comes. Well, this is assuming that you believe the bible is right, that there is armagedon.

[KomradKlaus]

and if sin is so overreaching, then how can any mortal be expected to understand the consequences of any "sin"?

as I said before, smegma can pose better arguments

[KomradKlaus]

the consequences of rape are finite because everyone involved will die within a century so any impact is finite and can be measured more or less objectively although it cannot be measured in a quantifiable

same with abortion

and the fruit shit shouldn't be considered a sin because there was no way they could have known it was wrong, and inherent original sin is a sickening and completely immoral concept

I've seen smegma produce better arguments than you

[TrustinJC]

@KomradKlaus Not true. Those people affected by the rape will interact with others. Children of the people involved with be affected. Their lives are altered, and therefore how they effect other people is also altered.

Same thing with an abortion. The effect that child would have on the world and those they would have come in catact with is altered. And only God can foresee and know the true extent of the changes and consequences.

[heavymetaldeath4life]

@TrustinJC "Those people affected by the rape will interact with others." Do you want me to go over rape, murder and crime in general statistics for you? Do you want me to compare with Theist:Atheist ratio when it comes to crime? Anyway, the rape victim who interacts with others will only interact with them in this life right? So how is that infinite?

[zipitup75]

@TrustinJC ok so if a stole a peice of gum, according to the belief i would suffer for eternity? how in the world is that fair? or just this is one of the reason i left christianity, it's so damn controlling, and people look at the disgusting things in the bible that God orders people to do, and no matter how cruel it is we would alway rationalize it to make God look as if he did something good when in fact it was cruel, petty and unjust, who order people to cut babies out of woman's belly

[6630mcdo]

@KomradKlaus Mortal sin not forgiven is infinite. Only God gives people the will to confess any sin. If we saw the true evil of a mortal sin, then like angels the first one would send us to hell. Humans stupidity saves us for the first time. And, second devils created hell for a place to live. Hell never entered the mind of God.

[6630mcdo]

@KomradKlaus Mortal sin not forgiven is infinite. Only God gives people the will to confess any sin. If we saw the true evil of a mortal sin, then like angels the first one would send us to hell. Humans stupidity saves us for the first time. And, second devils created hell for a place to live. Hell never entered the mind of God.

[SatiricalStewie]

I dont believe in torture for anyone, for any crime, its barbaric and unnecessary, so why would God allow that?

And I dont really understand this rotten tree thing. If you are born a rotten tree, how is that your fault. what kind of god creates you sick and commands that you are well. And how can that remain for eternity, if that is a certainty, how can we have free will. And God doesnt have to let people into heaven but he doesnt have to hurt people. So many questions atheists ask

[julzabro]

Your hell is not supposed to be doled out in THIS life but in an after life, so your example of future generations going on from a child conceived of rape is hardly relevant.

[Cootabux]

I love the OT & the history of Judaism bcuz it illustrates my points better than anything else.

Xians are put in an impossible position of defending every word of scripture bcuz they actually believe it's god's inerrant word. This is why it's impossible 4 them to defend & justify god's evil actions in the OT. What they treat as god's word, is man's. If not, & this son of god (Yahweh) was real, then we are left with an evil deity who has a penchant for killing children for the sins of others.

[Cootabux]

It's interesting how you spent all that time using extreme examples, bcuz it makes no difference. "Any" offence, I don't care how bad, deserves eternal torment! Such a cruel & sadistic, after the fact, punishment, is insane.

What's outrageous about Hell is that the manufacturer blames his toys for not performing as he wanted. The blame doesn't lie with us.

Glad u mentioned Original Sin bcuz nothing is more unjust than punishing A & E, but moreso, curing humanity for A & E's disobedience!!

[LifeLibertyLove]

Evil existed before man ever sinned therefore God is responsible or neglectful.

[JESUStheATHEIST1]

i suffered through 19 seconds of your video which felt like an eternity of stupidity.

[TrustinJC]

@JESUStheATHEIST1 It's a shame that you are incapable of understanding that insults as a response to any arguement shows a lack of intelligence. And to do so without an actual arguement for your point of view really drives this point home.

So feel free to pass on my videos. I won't be offended in the least.

More importantly though, is the fact that I also won't be offended by your insults, as I'll just consider the source.

[JESUStheATHEIST1]

@TrustinJC lack of intelligence? perhaps. maybe i should take another look into the talking snake story from the book of unicorns,arcs,slavery,genocide­,child rape,torture.....you know the bible.

im crazy but your the one with the imaginary friend.

[darkrood]

1. If finite crimes have unmeasurable and infinite effect, then shouldn't it reasonable to argue that finite deeds like saving someone from a burning fire deserve infinite reward? Does Christianity even support infinite reward for good actions? If that's not enough

2. "if god let a rotten tree enters the heaven, it would be unjust." so rotten trees can never accept Christ and be forgiven?

[TrustinJC]

@darkrood I'm pretty sure that I explained in my video that it is not a persons good deeds that get someone into heaven, just as a persons foul deeds do not condemn them. Rather, it is the fact they they are either good or bad. The fruit merley identifies which they are.

2) We are all sinners. So it is always a rotten tree that first comes to Christ. After coming to Christ, we are made into a new creature that produces good fruit because we are good in our new form.

[darkrood]

@TrustinJC

1) hmm, correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying that the action of an individual simply identified who they are in the core? Isn't it the same as judging one's character based on their actions? In other word bad behavior = bad people in heart. Good action= good people.

2) What if a rotten tree got saved by Christ in its later stage? Does it mean that the sin are washed away? What about the unmeasurable repercussions that you've stated?

[foon42]

But who made the tree rotten. god did. Thanks again god! great job. who made the spirit? God again! Wow it all makes sense. God makes the rotten soul so he can condemn it to hell. wow, perfectly rational, just and merciful.

Bottom line: God does not exist and your fervent hope that he does, so that he can send me to your hell for not believing in him is immoral and twisted.

Sorry for being so blunt and honestly over the top in my sarcasm. Thanks for the vids!

[TrustinJC]

@foon42 What makes you think that it is my hope God sends you to hell?

I warn you because I don't want you to go to hell. If I remained silent, you could then say that I hope for people like you to go to hell.

Your logic is extremely flawed.

Thanks for watching.

[foon42]

Oh great, a hell is not so bad video. Hatin on the universalists, nice. God doesn't exist, its your conception that is evil and immoral. Two FLAWS! 1) woman raped (why do you go to this scenario?). But doesn't got take evil and make a greater good? 2) She's an alcholic because of her god given disposition. Thank you god! 3) Let's forget rape, how bout the fact that I don't believe in god. Do I go to hell forever? 2nd flaw: Not being punished for a single sin!

[TrustinJC]

@foon42 You go to hell because you are disobedient to God.

You can argue that you can't be disobedient if you don't believe. But that is a lie. Your unbelieve is a symptom of your disobedience.

You have freewill. You chose not only to be rotten in the first place, but then go further and refuse to change when the option is presented to you.

[TrustinJC]

@Hexenhammer0 You are correct regarding our understanding of eternity. I've talked about this in other videos, that time no longer exists when God creates the new heavens and earth. And it's kind of hard to wrap our minds around an infinite time period that is eternal but which does not include time.

Come to think of it, this would make for an interesting video discussion.

I think I'll go make a video.

[resurrectionway]

continuing

we are His creation and he makes some of us vessels of honor and vessels of wrath . but of cause God will not allow sin in His Kingdom. I am just say that God can never be unjust what we think to be just or unjust is different from the way God sees it.

[resurrectionway]

Is God really unjust by allowing an unjust person in to heaven what about a just and righteous to hell. God is God and he can do this if HE so wishes, Satan has to come before God before he is allowed to do any thing and he is an unjust a unholy person going to heaven. God allowed Job temporarily to be in torment and pain a kind of hell, to continue

[GlasgowDude00]

...omniscient and omnipotent, then he created the universe knowing I would become an atheist. My own supposed free will cannot exist, either, because that would assume something exists outside of God and his plan.

God cannot know everything if he didn't know I would become an atheist.

[TrustinJC]

@GlasgowDude00 Freewill does fit with God's plan. Why can free will and an omnipotent God not coexist? Explain how disobedience and rebellion does not fit? Just because God allows it for a short period does not mean God is not omnipotent.

[GlasgowDude00]

We live in a finite universe, so the consequences of any action can only be finite.

Let's say I steal a packet of crisps from a supermarket. Eventually this action badly affects all life in the universe. Everyone and everything suffers, and this suffering lasts until the universe finally freezes up and decays. Even then God would still be immoral in punishing me forever -- billions upon billions of years is nothing in relation to infinity.

As for the rotten to the core stuff, if God is...

[savana906]

Anything outside of Jesus Christ is darkness, Jesus is the life and light. Everything in Heaven is Holy & pure & nothing impure can or ever will enter Heaven. Just the fact of not being with Jesus is a hell in itself, total darkness & then Gods roth. Jesus said there is no in between.. we are either for Him or against Him. Just as a judge will sent someone to jail here on earth, why is it that some do not understand or want to believe that God will be our judge?!

Good video

[carlsonap16]

Anyone who does not believe that hell exists is a fool and is going to hell.

Philosophy requires hell. When you take away the silly emotionalism, hell is the only thing that makes sense. What we really should be asking more is why do we not go to sin right after the first sin we commit?

I agree with both your arguments, but I would perhaps put it in a adifferent way. i'm going to send you my philosophy about this in a private message. shalom.

[noelplum99]

Ok, can I finish with a question (I don't want to cover ground i intend to in my vid response to your other video)?

Tell me which of these is the rotten tree?

Person A: Lifelong christian, devout but flawed. Constantly steals and hurts others, is selfish to the core but spends a lot of time parising god and asking jesus for forgiveness for the constant sinning

Person B: Murderer, rapist, drug trader etc etc. Becomes terminally ill and realises they will be brought to account for their ...

[noelplum99]

@noelplum99

...actions and asks God for forgiveness and repents for what they have done wrong - for the sins they have comitted (which according to you will carry on doing wrong for infinity)

Person C: Me. This person tries not to hurt anyone and to live a moral life and be thoughtful to others at all times. However, after a process of rational appraisal is not convinced by the claims of christianity.

So the question I ask you is which of these do you think is the 'rotten tree(s) and which ....

[noelplum99]

@noelplum99

...of these three do you think God will rightly send to be tortured for an infinite period of time?

[TrustinJC]

@noelplum99 A & C are rotten. Person B is saved provided they actually repented accept the new heart and nature that is given to them. Person B is a new creature, no longer associated with nor held accountable for the old person. To find him guilty would be like finding a twin brother guilty even though you know it was the other one who committed the crime.

Person A has not changed. They are christian in name only. Mentioning that they ask for forgiveness though can make a difference.

con't

[TrustinJC]

@noelplum99 Pt 2 If they ask for forgiveness but there is no repentance it will not count for anything since they only ask out of fear. There must be repentance.

Person C can not use ignorance as an excuse. Evidence is provided but rejected. For if person B can recognize God and the evidence of His being, than so too can person C.

[noelplum99]

@TrustinJC

Ok, so really though all this 'stuff' about the effects of sinful acts is pretty much a smokescreen. You might spend half your video talking about rape and other serious offences but it is clear that it all boils down, as I suspected, to salvation. What does it matter if a sin carries on for infinity or a nano-second, the punishment of hell isn't set by the length of the effect but simply whether you have repented for it.

Another question springs to mind though my friend:.....

[noelplum99]

@noelplum99

A bot more info on persons B and C

Person B is surrounded by christianity, living in the US bible belt of devout parents so naturally heads to Christianity given his upbringing and surroundings.

Person C has spent his life surrounded by agnostics and atheists who value Xhristianity no higher than Hinduism.

So you state "if person B can recognize God and the evidence of His being, than so too can person C", yet it is clear that there backgrounds are not so similar.....

[noelplum99]

@noelplum99

...in fact it turns out that if pwerson B and C had lived in each others towns with each others parents 'B' would no longer turn to God but 'C' would.

Now this certianly doesn't seem an outrageous hypothetical scenarion to envisage, i am sure you agree. So how is God not punishing Person C (me) for where I live and my parents?

[TrustinJC]

@noelplum99 I would argue that it's not a smoke screen. The world is very different today because of all the crime and sin committed. Can you argue that the world would be exactly as it is today if the mother of the man who found a vacine for polio had aborted her child? The world and the people in it are constantly changed forever because of the crimes committed. Therefore, the crimes have infinite consequences and repurcussions.

I'd be happy to respond to a video and explain better.

[noelplum99]

@TrustinJC

i accept that like the proverbial butterflies wing, that anything that happens now resonates into the future (though I fail to see how a crafty wank will necessarily resonate in a meaningful way a billion years from now) but the point is that these things are chaotic - good acts can go horribly wrong and acts committed for all the wrong reasons can have far reaching beneficial consequences. you know maybe me writing this post will condemn a billion people to death in ....

[noelplum99]

@noelplum99

...the year 324567 or instead save the planet in 73625 but noone would hold me accountable for that because of two reasons:

1) the results are chaotic, unpredictable not just practically but perhaps inherently (a mere quantum fluctuation one way making the difference) and no-one can tell whether any action will have an overall positive or negative result when stretched over infinity.

2) the results are a function of a trillion other factors besides my one action

[noelplum99]

@TrustinJC

"I'd be happy to respond to a video and explain better."

Like I say, i will make a video response to your other video but the argument here is no different to the expectations of astrologers or the assertions that every bad action in the world is balanced by a good one or that all bad karma is revisited on the individual.

These claims are so easy to make and if termed the way you have utterly irrefutable by design

[noelplum99]

Your Adam and Eve example was a much better one because, on the back of God's long held grudge and desire to punish the child for the sins of the parent, generations unending, indeed you have a better case here.

However, i match your Adam and Eve and raise you one Jesus: given that you are now allowing God to directly enter into the mix, how can sacrificing one's own child not be an infinite sin? You said it yourself, even the smallest sin can have infinite consequences and this is a whopper!

[noelplum99]

So if the crime of the sin of abortion is based on what the child would have otherwise achieved, then on what grounds should the mother go to hell for an infinite sentence if they had happened to be the mother of Hitler or Stalin?

This is the other problem with these examples, you are not taking account of the other side of the coin, that sometimes, by chance, a nasty crime might actually turn out to be for the betterment of society.

[noelplum99]

A comment as i work my way through. You have just said you are going to explain why any crime or sin, at least the major ones....... why only the major ones, i thought even the smallest of sins attracted the same punishment because god can not be around sin?

Ok your first example: rape. So you explained why the repercussions may extend a few decades, perhaps a few generations. however, you stated you would provide an example of why the ramifications were infinite. i have to ask you.....

[noelplum99]

@noelplum99

....Lavern, without sounding patronising, do you even have any comprehension what infinity is? It IS NOT a few measly decades, or a handful of generations. Explain to me the impact of the rape 10,000,000,000,000 generations down the line, long after our sun has become a red dwarf. Come on, my friend, you aren't even trying to make the case for infinite repercussions - I would sooner you tried and failed than this.

[TrustinJC]

@noelplum99 I gave the example of Adam and Eve. We are experiencing the repercussions and consequences of that one sin today. Now you may not belief that they ever truly existed. But if we are talking about God and Hell, than this means it must be taken in this context.

Given the example of an abortion, a child that would have been born 10,000,000,000 generations later would not be born. The same is of any crime, but to a lesser degree.

Con't

[TrustinJC]

@noelplum99 Pt 2 This is why I say that we cannot even imagine the consequences of our sin/crimes, nor imagine the consequences on the eternal spirit. If you violently rape someone, that person is changed forever. You distort and twist the very essence of their being.

The same is true of the woman who uses drugs during their pregnancy.

There is an interesting theory regarding time travel. The idea is based on someone traveling back in time.

con't

[TrustinJC]

@noelplum99 Pt 3 The theory is that changing one detail 20,000 yrs ago would be compounded to the point of having a vastly different world at the origional point which the time traveler left. The same is true of sin/crimes committed today. This is why the effects of sin/crime are not finite.

Than there is the misunderstanding that you are condemned because of the sin when it is in fact because of the person you are.

[noelplum99]

@TrustinJC

Your explanation here smacks a little of astrology: the extraordinary notion that everyone born in the same 1/12 of a year period will experience the same fates throughout their lives.

You are telling me that via these kinds of mechanisms you mention (it is called 'chaos theory' for a reason i have to add) that somehow a sinful act always ends up perpetually doing bad (aborting hitler, for example) and good acts that apparently go horribly wrong always end up......

[noelplum99]

@noelplum99

...somehow perpetually doing good? i have to say, if you believe that then there really is no limit to how far you will stretch to maintain what you believe at all costs.

[noelplum99]

@TrustinJC

"Given the example of an abortion, a child that would have been born 10,000,000,000 generations later would not be born."

And this is a bad thing??? I thought we were all born sinful and unfit for God? Surely this is a good thing?

No?

Okay then, well then if the rape produces a child that goes on to have thousands of descendants then how is that not, ultimately, a good thing to your way of thinking (hundreds of generations down the line i mean, not to the victim)?

[Chuck1863]

People are being punished eternally solely for the sin of not knowing which religion to believe in. God put us in an environment with plenty of decoy religions and if we don't guess right, it's eternal torture for us. This crime doesn't even have a victim. God is perfect and will be perfect no matter who believes what. It's eternal punishment for something that offends only God, and that by his own choice since he knew in advance which people would guess wrong and made them anyway.

[noelplum99]

@Chuck1863

Very well put.

[Chuck1863]

We're not suffering from the repercussions of Adam's and Eve's eating the forbidden fruit. We're suffering the repercussions of God's immoral response to that crime. It's ridiculous to punish someone for an ancestor's crime. People are being punished for a crime they didn't even commit.

[girlpalooza]

if god created everything, then there are no imperfections or you say that god is imperfect.

I guess, I just see too many loop holes to agree with your viewpoints or to see any support for your claims.

Life as we know it is hell, when you die that is heaven.

[girlpalooza]

The only repercussions are the ones you create on yourself, action = reaction. I am not paying for the sin from a story about a man and woman that ate an apple. I don't contribute anything in my life to that story, because it's just a story.

If your sins are forgiven then in truth there is no need for any christian to be worried about hell.

I think the biggest problem I have is that you speak thoughts to be truth, when they are only thoughts, and have no proof or backing to support them.

[girlpalooza]

It was not until the 5th century that the theology of hell started up... before that the teaching of hell in the New testament was illustrative only and early christians did not write on hell or take it literally as christians do today. The earliest discussions of hell are from the 6th century with the medieval apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus

Hades is actually a greek/pagan teaching.

the tanach teaching of sheol is not the same teaching in the new testament.

[rchodges]

Absolutely, the psychological and physical damage from hurting others is terrible. And yet, in the world you have described, even after this world no longer exists, even after the sun has burnt out and the galaxies have collided and the remnants of this planet are no more, the person of the sin will STILL BE TORTURED. Even comparing the entire time of the Universe to inifinity is still wrong, because inifinity will always be greater.

I'm sorry you cannot understand why this is wrong.