What Tavis Smiley and Professor Cornel West is forgetting is that President Obama is our PRESIDENT not a political activist so he has to be fair and just for both parties and what's right for the country as a whole he may be a little lax in his ferociousness but he cannot be too left
If we had a libertarian society, we would have no problem with a group of socialists creating their own enclave(s)_ Libertarianism is far more tolerant than socialism, socialism has to feed off of those who produce, thats why they have to use coercion_ If you want to change the world, you should do so by setting examples and using persuasion_ You can only use force when someone uses it against you_
@evandonghue2 Back when liberals & socialists had much more influence over politics, infrastructure such as the interstate system was well funded. Ever since fundies, neocons & fiscal conservatives have taken over, the funding has decreased for building & maintaining infrastructure. I'm not saying the postal service is better than what has developed in the private sector, but I am saying that the postal service helped build a growing economy. Yes, corporations are violent, especially to unions.
You could take every single penny the wealthy in this Country have and give it to the poor. In 5 years the people you took the money from would be wealthy again and the people you gave it to would be poor again. The war on poverty has cost over 11 trillion dollars, and we still have the poor. Instead of hating successful people, the poor should be taught how to emulate them. That is IF you really want to help them.
"The WAR on poverty has cost over 11 trillion dollars, and we still have the poor. Instead of hating successful people"
Hating successful people? Nice strawman, if indeed punishing them is what the intent was- they'd have ALL their money taken from them. Also, you said the word "WAR", ooooh, aaah! So, giving a chance the the poor = a no no, but keep the war effort in Afg and Ira okay?
@TurboDally@TurboDally Straw man?,. The only weapon the left has is class envy and class warfare. How does that help the poor? It doesn't. But it kepps them in power. BTW, ever see a poor Democrat in office? If you want to see who the REAL thievs are look no further. Yes, I said the word "war". It comes from your hero LBJ and his "new deal". He himself labled it "the war on poverty" Perhaps you should learn some history.
@HereinLasVegas - The fact that corporations have already raided public coffers, shipped jobs overseas, increased the tax burden on the American middle class and now are legally allowed to buy out the government they've already declared war on the other classes.
@A86 You are a brain washed fool. Wake up, the government that you no doubt support has robbed you blind, not "the coprporations" You best wake up and see what is happening instead of letting the deviders control you. Wake up! Only politicans can be bought, there are many interests that attempt to do so...blame the politicians who use that to buy your vote! It's not the system it is the corrupt people in it. But I guess you also support taking moral away from the system to, no?
@HereinLasVegas - Didn't I just say that they're allowing the elite to rob the public? How does that sound like support?
"not 'the corporations'"
The corporations are the ones lobbying the government to pass policies in their favor and they're the ones being allowed to leech trillions of dollars in corporate welfare while they shift the tax burden onto the middle class and small businesses while shipping jobs overseas and keeping wages down. They're as much the problem as the government.
Of course politicians are being bought, but who's buying them? It's not the citizens because most everyday people have nowhere near enough money to buy politicians, and the politicians aren't doing anything in our favor. I blame the politicians but I also have to blame the people buying them. To not would be like blaming Mafia enforcers for beating you up but not the Mafia they work for.
@A86 "blame the politicians...also have to blame the people buying them."
Agreed_ Corporatism cannot exist without the monopoly of force that is the state_ The goods and services those corporations provide are not the problem we face, the profits they make are not the problem we face, the problem we face is, corporations ability to use the power of government to garner unfair advantages, like being exempt from lawsuits when they damage people or property, or getting massive tax funded bailouts_
@evandonghue2 - "Corporatism cannot exist without the monopoly of force"
True, although the state is not the only monopoly of force. Corporations have in the past and still in the present hire private forces and private armies to protect their interests. I agree about the way corporations use the government to give themselves unfair advantages but the profiteering is one of them. One of the ways they raise profits is by laying people off and keeping wages down as a cost-cutting measure.
@evandonghue2 - Crushing labor unions and people who speak out against a company is morally justified? I think not. You also justified another point: corporations cannot hold onto property with a monopoly of force. All you've done is substituted government force with private force. Now you have private landlords with private armies who acquire land by force or coercion and hold onto it with force. Basically a privately-owned state/dictatorship. Basically you support neo-fedualism.
Good straw man_ Not... I genuinely want to understand ur argument, why must you insist on butchering mine>? please explain how a democratically elected monopoly of force can make the world a peaceful place>?
@evandonghue2 - I wasn't trying to make a straw man, your idea of a system genuinely sounds similar to Feudalism except without a king and with corporations or businesses replacing noble fiefdoms.
"how a democratically elected monopoly of force can make the world a peaceful place"
I didn't say it would necessarily make the world peaceful but a democratically-elected government can at least be more controlled by the public. A private monopoly of force only answers to the CEO or shareholders.
@A86 "corporations or businesses replacing noble fiefdoms."
In a free market businesses by definition do not engage in any violence to sell products_ Think of dating, it is a totally free market, no government intervention, u can make ur self as sexy as u want, but u cannot rape_ Now apply these same principles to economy, that is what I favor_
@evandonghue2 - "In a free market businesses by definition do not engage in any violence to sell products"
1) A free market does not and never has existed on a national scale; 2) I wasn't talking about selling products, though companies already do use violence to amass profit (such as Halliburton and Blackwater). Companies can and do use force to gain property or to put down opposition or impediments to profit. Such as companies hiring hitmen to kill labor union leaders.
@A86 "corporations or businesses replacing noble fiefdoms."
Have you ever studied the gilded age>? a time with very little government interference into the economy_The U.S. economy grew at the fastest rate in its history, with real wages, wealth, GDP, and capital formation all increasing rapidly_ Have you ever read Hayek's road to serfdom>? youtube search: "road to serfdom" _ Just a short video that will help u to understand my perspective a little better_
@evandonghue2 - I had to study that period for my Bachelor's in Econ. There was more government intervention than some people like to think. Lots of kickbacks, special policies and government deals with trusts back in those days. There was growth in GNP and capital formation in the 1870s and 1880s followed by a big depression in the 1890s. GDP growth (and real wage growth) was just as fast or faster from the mid-40s to the mid-60s, a time with more government intervention than now.
@TurboDally And if you really want to help the porr, theach them what it take to be successful. Things like not havin 5 childeren before they get married, finishing school, speaking proper english, acting like a civilized human being etc....
@HereinLasVegas " If you really want to help the poor teach them what it takes to be successful. "
Yes, the poor need to learn skills that are marketable_ But instead they support a tax system that steals from the very people that would give them both the training and employment they need to improve their situations_ Sure the government will pay lip service to poverty for political gain, then use the money raised to wage wage on poor people in the middle east_ Class warfare is not the answer_
@evandonghue2 - "But instead they support a tax system that steals"
1) The top 10% in this nation owns over 80% of the nation's financial assets yet only pays 20% of the taxes but receives the majority of government subsidies and tax breaks. They're already stealing from the people. Having them pay closer to their fair share is "theft"?; 2) Corporate profits have never been higher. They have all the money they need to enact training services and hire people. They'd rather just use cheap labor.
World Institute For Development Economics Research:
(.) gizmag (.) com / go / 6571 /
Low cost labor is beneficial for consumers in the short run but in the long-run it hurts them. Low-cost labor eventually replaces American consumers, that's why we have problems now with outsourcing and employers using illegal immigrants for cheap labor, and companies not raising wages since the early 80s. Read "WalMart: The High Cost of Low Price".
@A86 "Having them pay closer to their fair share is "theft"?"
america has one of the highest corporate income tax in the world_ Also has one of the highest capital gains tax_ While other counties, like canada, have lowered these taxes, to be more competitive, you propose raising them... ok_ I guess you want more unemployment_
@evandonghue2 - America's effective corporate tax rate is close to 22%. Most middle class citizens pay more than that per year in taxes. Canada's effective tax rate is closer to 26%. So, Canada and the EU have higher tax rates and there is no mass exodus of corporations.
There's also the question of why should corporate taxes be lowered? Why should they pay less than average American in taxes?
@TurboDally "So, giving a chance the the poor = a no no, but keep the war effort in Afg and Ira okay?"
No, end the wars_ But rewarding people for non productive behavior will only lead to more no productive behavior_ The poor do need a chance, to work hard, start at the bottom and work their way up, this does not have anything to do with political action, this has to do with making yourself valuable to your fellow man/woman_
@rwalkenhorst actually that might have worked back in 07- 08, just imagine if QE1 & 2 and tarp and any other bailouts went to the tax payers instead of the corporations and banks and foreign banks.
@23animanga Yeah, and imagine how much better still it would be if they simply left wealth in the hands of the people who earned it so they can spend, save, invest or give it away as they see fit.
@23animanga You could take every single penny the wealthy in this Country have and give it to the poor. In 5 years the people you took the money from would be wealthy again and the people you gave it to would be poor again. The war on poverty has cost over 11 trillion dollars, and we still have the poor. Instead of hating successful people, the poor should be taught how to emulate them. That is IF you really want to help them.
Housing is a human right? I call the Trump Tower!
Govt is making everyone poor. The only rich people that steal from the poor are the ones that are connected to the govt, 'Jeffrey Immelt, G.E.' The poor pay more for everything because of govt. Govt looting is the problem.
BIS is what they call Bank for International Settlements. It's located in Basel, Switzerland. Into it pours the cream from the centralized world money whirlpool -- quadrillions of dollars taken from humans by the world's Rothschild-owned central banks. Picture money coming in from all corners. All those interest payments on all those economic-hit-men-made impossible poor-country loans, all those credit card penalties, skyrocketing late fees, foreclosure clean-ups, income taxes etc.
These Zionist Parasites RUINED Nations & Economies and STOLE TRILLIONS FROM US 24/7. Where there is war, oil & banking, theres a Rothschild controlling it
Smiley/West started their tour with native americans_ Native americans are poor because of the state, tavis_ No race of people in american history have experienced more government interventions/wars/welfare/bribes/lies_ Blacks in america have had similar government interventions, welfare has destroyed black families_ Does poverty persists in spite of government intervention or because of it>? History gives us the painfully obvious answer_The only cure for poverty is learning a valuable skill_
@MarmaladeINFP Govt has no money_ It has debt_ 14 trillion not including entitlements_ Government has to steal money to pay for "job education & training"_ In the medical field a radiologist has to go to school for 2 years to take a picture, that person could be trained on the job, making money and costing the tax payer zero, instead the government will give that person a 40,000 debt to pay for education to do a job that one day soon a machine will do_
@evandonghue2 Most US govt debt is owed to the US govt. For example, the govt has borrowed from social security. Also, most US debt comes from the Pentagon & tax cuts (along with corporate subsidies & bailouts), not social services. The problem is that our govt has been taken over by corporations. The solution is to get corporate money out of Washington. If tax rates were increased to what they were in the past & military spending was decreased, we would now have a massive surplus.
@MarmaladeINFP "Most US govt debt is owed to the US govt. "
Is that supposed to make me feel better>? It doesn't_ Have you ever thought about the damage to poor people caused by a dollar that has lost 80% of it's value in 30 years>? Or that fact that savings accounts garner nearly nothing because of the federal reserve dictating interest rates>? This happens because government cannot defy the laws of economics forever, please look into the history of any fiat money, never ends well_
@evandonghue2 I hope one day to have a real democracy in this country instead of our present corporatocracy that has created the debt crisis. That is the only real choice: govt of the people, by the people, for the people; or govt of the plutocracy, by the plutocracy, for the plutocracy.
The point about the debt is that it's another thing that most people don't understand. Govt debt being owed to the govt isn't the same as normal debt. It's important most of the debt is't to foreign investors.
@MarmaladeINFP "That is the only real choice: govt of the people, by the people, for the people; or govt of the plutocracy, by the plutocracy, for the plutocracy."
What about no government at all_ Government is the initiation of force to solve problems, why cannot all the functions of the state be voluntary>?
@evandonghue2 An anarchist society has never existed in a developed country that is industrialized with a modern economy. There are undeveloped countries that exist in various degrees of anarchy, but most of them are failed states and only remain anarchistic because of conflict being maintained through international forces. The closest you'll get to genuine anarchy is certain hunter-gatherer tribes that still live in isolation. I have no problem with utopian ideals, but our problems remain.
@MarmaladeINFP " An anarchist society has never existed in a developed country that is industrialized with a modern economy."
Government is force_ Whenever u decide to use government to solve ur problem u r choosing to use violence to solve that problem, there is no ex-post-facto justification you can say to avoid this glaring fact_ As for your argument above, the same could have been said of slavery, "no society can exist without slavery" people cried, but it was abolished so will the state_
@evandonghue2 Corporations use violence as well. In the 19th century, the Pinkertons had more agents than the US military and they operated internationally. Corporations still use private military forces and local goons in violently breaking up labor movements & such. The private violent force of slavery was abolished by the govt, certain people continued to trade slaves even after it was made illegal & they were only stopped by the Civil War.
@MarmaladeINFP "orporations use violence as well. In the 19th century"
Thoreau would say your are swiping at the branches of evil_ The root of institutional violence is the state, who do you think filled the ranks of these mercenary corporations>? Were these men not trained by the state in their armies>? Brainwashed by it's education system>? Yes_
@evandonghue2 Thoreau was a left-libertarian who criticized the unregulated crony capitalism of his day and who criticized the problems of high wealth disparity.
@MarmaladeINFP "Corporations use violence as well. In the 19th century,"
Ha, you point to some distant past when a corporation did some evil thing while the government of america is engaged in 6 wars in the middle east, has bases in over 100 countries, and has killed a million people in iraq_ This is just the atrocity de jour, I can list as many more state atrocities as there is room on this comment page, but I wont_ Statism is the elephant u r choosing to ignore_
@evandonghue2 I don't need to point to the past. Even in recent years, corporations have used private militias & goons to commit violence against workers & union leaders in developing countries. These transnational corporations also control our govts. All of these wars are done because private interests want them. We have inverted totalitariaism. The transnational corporations are more powerful and more elusive than any govt. People can revolt against a govt but not a transnational corporation.
@MarmaladeINFP "These transnational corporations also control our govts."
Total agreement, all im saying is the act of providing goods and services is not the problem, the government, granted with the moral obligation to use violence to solve problems is_
@evandonghue2 But not all govts have been controlled by transnational corporations. Inverted totalitarianism is something entirely new that hasn't existed before. If you want to see a govt that successfully eliminated crony capitalism & political corruption, then look at the sewer socialists who ran many local govts for decades. No libertarian-run govt in the US has succeeded to the same degree. As for anarchism, it's a nice utopian ideal that never has existed. Even tribal people use violence.
@evandonghue2 Lincoln noted that not a single state govt had ended slavery since the beginning of the country. There was no evidence that slavery would end without federal intervention. Even today, in places where there isn't govt enforcement, slavery continues to operate.
Anything that is anti-democratic is violent force. A govt can be democratic, but major corporations are designed to not operate democratically. This is why they commit so much violence in countries around the world.
@MarmaladeINFP " There was no evidence that slavery would end without federal intervention."
Wrong, all over the world slavery was phased out and in many places without war, slaves were simply purchased and freed, no war_ State intervention protected slavery, to not recognize this is ignorance_ who else but government power could prop up such a impossible institution>?
@evandonghue2 Slavery was in some cases phased out without war but never without govt intervention. Lincoln didn't force war on the South. They chose to secede so they could continue slavery. Lincoln was seeking to end the force that Southern slaveholders were using against slaves. Yes, sometimes force has to be ended with force. Even libertarians acknowledge that force is justified in defense against force. Even when the govt illegalized slave trade, the South continued. You can't blame govt.
@evandonghue2 That is disinfo many have been deceived by. Defense discretionary spending is 85% of the budget, & defense spending is highest since WWII. Trust fund spending such as social security pay for itself because people just get the money back that they put into it. Also, a deceptive part is past military spending is included as non-military spending.
w ww. voa. org/Get-Involved/Advocate/Issue-Alerts_1/Non-defense-Discretionary-Spending
@MarmaladeINFP "That is disinfo many have been deceived by. Defense discretionary spending is 85% of the budget,"
While I agree that the DOD is probably lying about the true cost of war, my numbers are sourced by the congressional budget office, so it is their "disinfo not mine_ Besides if you believe the DOD is lying why wouldn't the dept in charge of SS be telling the truth>?
@evandonghue2 It's not matter of truth or false in a simple sense. The info is factually true, but it's just presented in a particular way to present a particular way of looking at it. There is nothing wrong with that per se. It's only disinfo when politicians & pundits continually repeat it that way in order to intentionally misinform & mislead the public.
@MarmaladeINFP " If tax rates were increased to what they were in the past & military spending was decreased, we would now have a massive surplus."
Agreed, but where do you intend we find these angles to lead the monopoly of force that is the government>? This is why free people want protection from government not to be given handouts, but to be able to work/trade and be independent_
@evandonghue2 Agreed, but where do you intend we find these angels to lead the monopoly of force that is corporatist control over the global economy & over govts all over the world? It's not about angels. That is the beauty of democracy. If you concentrate power in the few, there will always be corruption which is equally true for the bureaucracy of big biz. Only a democracy can protect against concentrated power. And only an economy operating in a functioning democracy can be a free market.
@MarmaladeINFP "And only an economy operating in a functioning democracy can be a free market."
In your ideal democracy can 51% of the population choose to take the property of 49% of the population>? This is why I believe democracy fails_ The non aggression principle is the center of morality in a free market not the whims of the mob majority_ Philosophy, reason, and truth not mob rule should be the ideal for a voluntary society_
Democracy is the problem, for too long americans have elected clowns that promise them a free lunch, well now there's no food_ The government spent 3.7 trillion in 2011, much of it the result of well meaning politicians pandering for votes with stolen money_ We need restrictions (at least) on democracy, that is what the constitution intended_
@evandonghue2 You can't blame our present political system on democracy. We don't have a functioning democracy. Our democracy as a political system is already so restricted as to not exist in any practical way. That is obvious to anyone who isn't a complete fucktard. Our govt is controlled by a plutocracy. We have a banana republic that has been a corporatocracy and is becoming or already has become inverted totalitarianism.
@evandonghue2 If we had a functioning democracy, our representatives wouldn't make decisions that most Americans disagree with. Most Americans on key issues are to the left of Obama and other Washington Democrats. The Tea Party minority that has a lot of power is to the right of even average Republicans. How is an elite ruling over the American population supposedly, in your mind, a mobocracy?
Pff, the internet is being created right now, ever growing, did the government create ur blog>? No, continuing human action created and continues to create the internet_
@evandonghue2 It isn't a choice between govt & free markets. First, govts have always existed. Even tribal people have govts & courts & use violence to enforce laws. Second, the only time relatively free markets have existed is when there is govt regulation to referee fair dealings & to restrict monopolies. Without regulation, capitalism will inevitably lead to monopolies. Your choice is to have a democratic govt that uses force or a non-democratic feudal corporation that uses force.
@MarmaladeINFP "govt regulation to referee fair dealings & to restrict monopolies"
In the age of european monarchy monopoly literally ment that a king granted sole right to produce a good or service_ Today, government still grants monopolies, over education, transportation, energy, dispute resolution, and most importantly money_ I challenge you to show me a single monopoly in history without government intervention>>>>
@evandonghue2 Just look at capitalism prior to the progressive era when regulations were implemented to break up monopolies & keep them from forming. There were many monopolies in the 19th century when capitalism was the most unregulated. That is reality. Like it or not, the facts are the facts. I'm sorry that your fantasies are so disconnected from reality.
@MarmaladeINFP "There were many monopolies in the 19th century when capitalism was the most unregulated. That is reality. Like it or not, the facts are the facts."
I cannot disagree more, google: the failure of antitrust_
@evandonghue2 "monopolies in the 19th century when capitalism was the most unregulated."
Have you ever studied the gilded age>? a time with very little government interference into the economy_The U.S. economy grew at the fastest rate in its history, with real wages, wealth, GDP, and capital formation all increasing rapidly_ Have you ever read Hayek's road to serfdom>? youtube search: "road to serfdom" _ Just a short video that will help u to understand my perspective a little better_
@evandonghue2 Actually, in many ways the 19th century had the most govt intervention. From the first president to more than a century following, the US govt used protectionist policies to protect against transnational corporations & to encourage local economic growth. Also, the US govt right from the beginning subsidized certain markets such as printing press businesses. OTOH, the 19th cent was the age of the Robber Barons, the most brutal, oppressive & monopolistic business owners in US history
@evandonghue2 The internet is the perfect example of what I'm describing. The govt creates the basic platform & creates the regulations. With a free market established & maintained by the govt, private innovators can build further upon the public investment. Continuing human action (which includes elected officials, voting citizens, civic activists, private investors, & entrepreneurs) created and continues to create the internet & the entire economy. No single person does anything alone.
@evandonghue2 The internet is based on vast regulations. Just because you are ignorant of and unaware of them doesn't mean the regulations don't exist. Do some research. You can't honestly be that clueless, can you?
@MarmaladeINFP "The internet is based on vast regulations."
So if our loving government stopped regulating the interwebs would fail>? Ohh no, guess I should worship my overlords and shut up_ What regulation is responsible for the internet>?
@evandonghue2 Nothing would fail. In fact, certain businesses would be so successful they'd become monopolies. Those corporate overlords would be much more oppressive than our present democratically elected representatives. Just ask working class people who lived during the period following the Industrial Revolution and prior to the Progressive Era regulations. The oppression by corporations back then included: private violence & murder (Pinkertons), dangerous work conditions, low wages, etc.
@evandonghue2 This is why I want a democracy instead of a corporatocracy. In a corporatocracy, we can only hope our rulers will take care of us & so we are forced to feel grateful for whatever scraps they throw down to us. In a democracy, we would be forced to be responsible for our govt actions. It's easy for a plutocratic politician to take money from the lower classes to spend how he wishes. It's much harder when, in a democracy, you are making decisions about your own money.
@evandonghue2 - The government has been more controlled at times in the past. The problem is we've given corporations and other special interest groups much more power than they've had in previous generations and the people who get elected into office these days are a different bunch than in days past. These days most politicians are lawyers or corporate PR people by trade.
We are working - the problem is wages aren't going up because corporations are getting handouts from the government.
@A86 "The government has been more controlled at times in the past. "
The government is always controlled_ Everyone wants to use government to control their enemies, the poor want to steal from the rich, the rich want to subject the poor_ As humans can't we stop the class struggle_ After all, working together voluntarily, providing goods and services to each other is the way we will overcome poverty_
@evandonghue2 I could just as easily say everyone wants to use the economy, corporations, wealth & private power to control their enemies, to steal from others, to subject others. Both are equally true & equally false. Not everyone is violent as you know you would be if you gained power. It reminds me of research showing conspiracy theorists who worry about abuse of power admit that they would if given the chance conspire against others. They assume others are as fucked in the head as they are.
@MarmaladeINFP " I could just as easily say everyone wants to use the economy, corporations, wealth & private power to control their enemies,"
Accept in a freed market private industry would be checked by their consumers_ People vote everyday with their dollars, just look at organic foods, 10 years ago u could barely find them, now, because of consumer demands they are everywhere_ The government is force, it never changes because it steals ur money and needs not ur consent_
@evandonghue2 Except we don't have a free market, never had a free market, never will have a free market. All markets are controlled. It's just a matter of who controls them: govts, monopolies, religions, communities, etc. You really are simpleminded. People vote with their dollars in the sense people vote for their representatives: Coke vs Pepsi, Republican vs Democrat. The plutocrats decide what choices we get.
@MarmaladeINFP " The plutocrats decide what choices we get."
LIke BS to plants, you provide fertile ground for illogical fallacy_ Take the fashion industry, a largely unregulated market, there is no intellectual property, meaning no designer or brand can patent a style, cut, color, shape, ect_ The fashion industry provides ever changing styles, constantly seeking to please customers fickle whims_This kind of freedom applied to pharmaceuticals would cut prices and increase access to drugs_
@evandonghue2 Do you have the choice to drink clean water out of a stream? Do you have a choice to walk freely without someone claiming you are on their property? I could ask hundreds of other similar questions. Modern civilization with industrialization, pollution, environmental destruction, species extinction, overpopulation & privatization of land & resources has led to the elimination of many choices people had in the past. Yes, new choices are created by other people, but that isn't freedom
@MarmaladeINFP "Do you have the choice to drink clean water out of a stream?"
Yes and property rights protects that_ Google: Property rights and environmental protection, might be a good read for the off chance that your prejudices are unfounded_
@evandonghue2 But you don't have the choice to drink clean water out of a stream. The reason you don't have this choice is because water has become too polluted. You would become sick & possibly die if you drink it. This is why after the Industrial Revolution cities had to start filtering water to make it safe for consumption. In the past, someone could drink clean water for free. Now, we have to pay to drink clean water. That is called externalization of costs.
@MarmaladeINFP "Do you have a choice to walk freely without someone claiming you are on their property?"
If someone does not want u on their property, no, you don't have a right to it_ This is sandbox logic, remember when we were kids, everyone has toys, you can share, and if you want human interaction/friends you will share, but no one has the right to take your toys_
@evandonghue2 What if a few people owned all of the land in the world and there was no govt. Some right-liberarians & anarcho-capitalists think that private property can be defended with violence. This would lead to feudalism.
Land is a limited resource. All land is stolen. There are indigenous people who live next to & in some cases rent from the people whose grandparents & great grandparents stole the land using violence & oppression from their grandparents & great grandparents.
Absolutes are rarely true_ I am not responsible for the perversion of property rights through history, I simply respect other people's things and accept the same in return_
@evandonghue2 You personally benefit from the perversion of property rights through history, including within living memory, including events that happened in your lifetime & are happening right now around the world. Consider this scenario. Someone kills one of your family members & steals their property. You discover the property had been sold. When you tell the person the property had been sold to, wouldn't you expect them to give it back or expect the courts to force them to give it back?
@MarmaladeINFP "What if a few people owned all of the land in the world"
How, bought with money printed out of thin air>? Read this, does this argument make any sense>? The world is a big enough for all of us your dead wrong about overpopulation_ The state at some time might have served man, but now man serves the state_
@evandonghue2 I recommend you read Thomas Paine's 'Agrarian Justice'. The US govt & Americans as a free people wouldn't even exist without Paine. Like no other, he understood the problems Americans faced.
Benjamin Franklin: "You, Thomas Paine, are more responsible than any other living person on this continent for the creation of what are called the United States of America."
John Adams: "Without the pen of the author of Common Sense, the sword of Washington would have been raised in vain."
@evandonghue2 There is no free market. All markets are controlled by someone, either private monopolies or govt. I'll trust a democratic govt over an anti-democratic feudal corporation any day. If you like free markets, you should like govts. The closest humans have ever come to a large scale free market is through govt regulation. Everything else is utopian fantasy which are pleasant fictions, but in reality we must deal with what is proven.
@evandonghue2 You can live in whatever fantasy you prefer. More power to you. But one day reality might smack you so hard in the face that you'll wake up from those pleasant dreams. Reality is a bitch. Ultimately, there is no escape from the facts of reality. But I guess enjoy your fantasies while they last.
@MarmaladeINFP "You can live in whatever fantasy you prefer."
Thank you, that is all I ask_ To be left in peace, to my own devices as long as my actions do not violate other's property_ I only wish our government could have the same civility_
@evandonghue2 It doesn't matter what you ask. Reality is still reality. Your decisions and actions effect others just as the decisions and actions of others effect you. There is no escaping this. As social animals with a growing population on a finite planet with finite resources and finite land to live upon, there is no way to escape effecting or being effected by others. However, you are free to try. Someone right now is setting up a libertarian island. Move there & prove your ideology works.
As you define it Im sure_ Stop being so combative it accomplishes nothing and makes you look like a child_ We are social animals, if we understand property rights/non aggression we can interact with each other in peaceful ways_ The gr8 thing about anacho-capitalism is that we support the rights of people to give up property if they wish,live in a commune and do as they please, we only ask the same respect, not to be aggressed on for claiming property_
@evandonghue2 I personally consider someone childish who advocates childish fantasies that would have horrible real world consequences. Your wanting to attack all the programs that have helped working class & middle class Americans is combative. Your wanting to attack regulations that have protected workers & small business owners is combative. Yes, I will combat the horror that you advocate. I'd be stupid not to do so. If ideas like yours convince enough people, the future will be a living hell
@MarmaladeINFP "someone childish who advocates childish fantasies"
I advocate non aggression and the seeking out of truth_ I advocate finding peaceful solution to social problems_ I take these principles very seriously and have tried to fully apply it in my life, it works for me_
@MarmaladeINFP " But I guess enjoy your fantasies while they last."
No one is promised tomorrow, but I will say this, since applying this philosophy to my life, my relationships are stronger, my happiness is greater, Im optimistic about my future, and my bank account is much much bigger_ In fact, Im creating jobs for myself and others_
@evandonghue2 Yes, you are doing all of this as part of a democratic society and supported by the public investment (infrastructure, education, regulations, emergency services, etc) of this democratic society. That is the beauty of a democratic society. It allows people like you to work hard & get a fair chance at succeeding.
@evandonghue2 In Nazi death camps, they'd create 2 lines. Detainees were given a free choice of which line to get in, but both went to the gas chambers. The false choice merely was given to distract them so they wouldn't revolt. As Meir Berliner, who fought the Nazis, said: "When the oppressors give me two choices, I always take the third."
The point is you always must consider which options are being disallowed in any presented set of choices. Freedom doesn't mean submitting to false choices.
Kennedy cut taxes, but the government collected more in taxes, same with the reagan tax cuts and bush cuts_ Why>? Because cutting taxes creates more millionaires, more millionaires means more tax revenue_ Point is, it is better to get a smaller piece of more pies_ Corporate taxes in america are the highest in the world, if you tax the rich they only move their money to more tax favorable countries, think outsourcing_
@evandonghue2 The highest marginal tax rate averaged above 70 percent from the late 1940s to 1980. Also, during those decades GDP grew, manufacturing grew, wealth of average Americans grew, wealth disparity decreased, and the American economy became dominant around the world.
w ww. csmonitor. com/Business/Robert-Reich-s-Blog/2011/0216/A-super-high-tax-for-the-super-rich-Wouldn-t-be-the-first-time.
w ww. econdataus. com/taxcuts. html
"The argument that the near-doubling of revenues during..."
"...Reagan's two terms proves the value of tax cuts is an old argument. It's also extremely flawed. At 99.6 percent, revenues did nearly double during the 80s. However, they had likewise doubled during EVERY SINGLE DECADE SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION! They went up 502.4% during the 40's, 134.5% during the 50's, 108.5% during the 60's, Hence, claiming that the Reagan tax cuts caused the doubling of revenues is like a rooster claiming credit for the dawn."
@evandonghue2 You are a fount of disinfo. Corporate tax rates are high in the US, but US corporate tax revenues are some of the lowest among developed countries. This is because of tax loopholes & tax havens that allow some corporations to pay very little and others to pay nothing. These major corporations have teams of lobbyists pushing tax policies friendly to big biz & teams of tax lawyers to avoid paying taxes.
@evandonghue2 Back when tax rates were higher & there was a surplus, the US govt was funding education, job training, & infrastructure. It did all of this while avoiding a debt. The middle class was growing & wealth in all classes was growing.
I understand your utopian ideals, but I'm talking about reality. The govt gives tax breaks for companies that provide further training including on-the-job training. So what's your issue?
Then you should understand theft is no way to solve societies problems_ Back when the government ran surpluses they spent less than 2 trillion a year now its over 7 trillion_ Are you arguing that they should be able to spend more>? The only affective job training the government does is training the afghanis to grow poppies_
@evandonghue2 It's only theft when not a democracy. Right now, we don't have a functioning political democracy. The political system has been corrupted to the point it has become a banana republic, somewhere betwen corporatism & inverted totalitarianism. Yes, I don't like having my money stolen by plutocrats to serve the interests of plutocrats. This is why I support democracy: govt of the people, by the people, for the people. I want to democratically make my own decisions about my money.
No, if my neighbors vote to take my house, that is still theft_ Im not saying democracy is useless, but it has to be checked by morality_ Democracy as long as it does not conflict with property rights and the non aggression principle is fine_ No one should be allowed to initiate violence to solve their problems, ever, it is never morally justified_
@evandonghue2 Humans are social animals. There is no such thing as an absolutely isolated individualistic creation or profit. Land would have no value if not for communities with public investments into infrastructure. Companies build factories where they can find an educated/trained workforce, also usually publicly funded. As Paine understood, there are many social problems that are collectively caused by modern society such as large populations. This is why the Lockean Proviso is necessary.
@MarmaladeINFP "This is why the Lockean Proviso is necessary."
The Lockean Proviso is an affirmation of property rights, unfortunately, some have perverted it to mean land acquisition is illegitimate_ Georgism presumes land is owned by society, but what is society anyway, who defines it>?... And please don't say "the guys with the biggest guns">? Georgian paradox: "How can you effectively own anything if you're barred from owning the land you're standing on?"_ This is bad logic_
@evandonghue2 Georgism doesn't assume anything. It merely states a fact. All ownership of land is theft. Almost every piece of land that is owned once was lived on freely by people. People were forcibly removed, often along with genocide, for our present land ownership system to be put in place. In some communities, the grandchildren & great grandchildren of the victims of land theft still live next to, often renting from the grandchildren & great granchildren of the land thiefs.
@MarmaladeINFP We have higher taxes today than at any time in american history_ The tax rate means nothing,deficit spending is taxes_ Just because the government is deferring payment and growing the debt does not mean taxes are low, only means taxes are being put off into the future_ Debt is taxes_
"So what's your issue?"
The government is incapable of curing poverty, only a competitive job market can do that_ And with a enormous debt, the highest corporate tax don't expect a good job market_
You mean like the liberal arts degrees people are getting into tens of thousands of dollars of debt for>? Im sure they will enjoy living with mom for the rest of her life_
@evandonghue2 First, yes an educated population is better than an ignorant population. In oppressive societies such as North Korea, the people are kept ignorant and their ignorance keeps them from revolting. The middle class in America was built on publicly funded education.
Second, companies get tax breaks for providing their own job education & training. Trust me, these companies aren't getting tax breaks by sending their employees to liberal arts degrees.
@MarmaladeINFP "The middle class in America was built on publicly funded education."
No, the middle class was built on better productivity, more production for cheaper prices, more investment in capital goods that make the labor of people more valuable_ Public education is funded at the end of a gun, part of the reason why our public education system fails to teach logic, ethics, economics, and philosophy is because if it did any astute student would recognize this ethical contradiction_
@evandonghue2 The govt built the interstate system that allowed mass transport, built the postal service that allowed mass mailings, built the public education system that created an educated population of trained workers, built the initial internet that has transformed modern society & economics. Shut the fuck up about your bullshit about govt violence. I proved without a doubt that corporations are equally complicit in doing violence through govt & doing violence on their own. Wake the fuck up
@MarmaladeINFP "Shut the fuck up about your bullshit about govt violence."
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
@evandonghue2 Yes, govt is public force to counter private force. What is your point?
The founding generation started the Boston Tea Party to fight against a transnational corporation. The founding fathers, in particular George Washington, implemented protectionist policies as their first official actions. They weren't anarchists, especially not anarcho-capitalists. George Washington is a horrible example for your argument as he was the head of govt force which he obviously saw as necessary.
@MarmaladeINFP "Yes, govt is public force to counter private force. What is your point?"
My point is, private force, is immoral, never justified_ Whereas governmental force, like throwing a man tried of paying for war in jail, is considered moral and justified_
@MarmaladeINFP "They weren't anarchists, especially not anarcho-capitalists. "
Listen, I am only taking a philosophy to it's logical conclusion, if the initiation of force is the ultimate evil in the world than government cannot exist_ That is not to say dispute resolution will not exist, that is not to say violence won't exist, it is only to say the initiation of violence is not the answer to social problems_
@evandonghue2 - "Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
In that quote Washington says it's a "troublesome servant". Never does he say there should be no government intervention, just that it should not be left to "irresponsible action". In his last State of the Union Address in 1796 he specifically advocates some social programs he thought it would be necessary for the government to provide.
@A86 "Never does he say there should be no government intervention"
True, but after a 200+ year experiment, I would say the minarchist libertarian government that was set up after the american revolution has failed_ The once limited constitutional republic has become the largest and most powerful state in human history_ It is clear to me the smaller the government, the more economic freedom, the bigger tax base, that eventually becomes a huge government_
@evandonghue2 - I would say that we're economically more free today in many ways than we were back then. We don't have slavery (technically) today, people other than white male landowners can do business, people have the ability to move around to other areas or other countries to seek work, women aren't reliant on men for a living and they can work on their own, elderly people don't have to live with their kids or grandkids when they retire because they have SS, etc.
@A86 "elderly people don't have to live with their kids or grandkids when they retire because they have SS,"
If you really care about the elderly, you should advocate sound money_ The reason so many of our seniors need SS, is because their dollar has lost 80% of it's value in their lifetime_ On top of that, 0% interest rates make it so that savers are punished_ A dollar saved in 1970 buys so much less with practically no return from interest_ If we had sound money saving would be rewarded_
I do. However, even when the American dollar was worth more back in the 40s and 50s most Americans didn't earn enough money to retire on and still live independently. Even with SS a lot of seniors still have to live with their kids or grandkids. I had to deal with a lot of citizens like that at my last job.
@A86 " I would say that we're economically more free today "
I would agree, but that does not change the fact that our monetary system is currently making everyone that holds dollars poorer, with the exception of politically connected elites_
@evandonghue2 - "but that does not change the fact that our monetary system is currently making everyone that holds dollars poorer"
Agree with you 100% there. Actually, we also wouldn't need so many social programs today if we cut out some of the stuff the allows for and causes poverty. One of them being the mass outsourcing of good-paying jobs and another one being employers creating excuses to keep everyone's wage low. A big one is government giving out golden parachutes to failed industry.
@A86 "his last State of the Union Address... he advocates social programs he thought it would be necessary "
I use that quote to illustrate that government is violence_ GW understood that and so should you_ Also, GW did not have the benefit of living through the failed american/european welfare system the has created a permanent underclass ignored and filed into government housing, segregated form economic opportunity_ They are very angry and it is on their behave I advocate economic freedom_
Yes, but it is not the only violence. A private military is no less violent than a government one.
You keep saying a "failed" system. Where is the failure? All the world's wealthiest countries are all social democracies. The countries with permanent underclasses are all either Stalinist or deregulated capitalist systems. The US underclass has significantly grown over the past 35 years as social programs have been dismantled.
@A86 "yes, but it is not the only violence. A private military is no less violent than a government one."
Wrong_ WWI, WWII, vietnam... could go on and on, the state is clearly more violent than private enterprise_ Besides how is a private company gonna borrow trillions to bomb millions of people>? Never happened in history_
@evandonghue2 - Look up Blackwater/Xe and Halliburton. There are more private contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan now than there are GIs. They're no less violent or imperialistic.
"how is a private company gonna borrow trillions to bomb millions of people"
Listen, if a government hires a private contractor, pays them to provide a service, that is a government action, payed for with stolen money and would not be possible without the borrowing power of the federal government_
@evandonghue2 - A government can hire a private contractor but so can most of today's megacorporations. Companies like Boeing, McDonnell-Douglas, GE, etc. have enough money to pour into entities like Blackwater. Since these militaries are for-profit then theoretically they can continue to increase in size and scope as they turn a profit. As companies gain more profit they have money to hire more contractors like them or give away as funding to increase the size of the private armies.
@A86 "A government can hire a private contractor but so can most of today's megacorporations."
Ok, and when that happens, it will be immoral and any competent dispute resolution organization could deal with the guilty parties_ Im not saying it cannot happen, merely saying there should be an organization to mediate these disputes_ Once again, when government uses these tactics Im expected to feel patriotic/moral and put a flag outside my house, support the war_ Can you see this contradiction>?
@evandonghue2 - I don't know about millions of people but Blackwater has killed at least thousands or tens of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. To me that's just as despicable. Even more despicable is how they fly under the radar of rules and regulations and they're being protected from this by the government while sponging off of tax dollars.
I agree with you about jingoism. WWII was the last war that I really feel any sense of national pride about.
What Tavis Smiley and Professor Cornel West is forgetting is that President Obama is our PRESIDENT not a political activist so he has to be fair and just for both parties and what's right for the country as a whole he may be a little lax in his ferociousness but he cannot be too left
wtrnt 4 months ago
PLEASE PLEASE TAKE THIS TOUR TO THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI AND EXPOSE THE TRUTH.
tunett123 4 months ago
THANK YOU FOR POSTING!!!!!!
thewithersband 6 months ago
If we had a libertarian society, we would have no problem with a group of socialists creating their own enclave(s)_ Libertarianism is far more tolerant than socialism, socialism has to feed off of those who produce, thats why they have to use coercion_ If you want to change the world, you should do so by setting examples and using persuasion_ You can only use force when someone uses it against you_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "The govt built the interstate system "
Now in disrepair, crumbling with grid lock traffic_
"built the postal service"
That is out classed by private enterprise while the USPS continues to loose money as well as one of the biggest polluters in the world_
"built the public education system"
Payed for at the end of a gun_
"educated population of trained workers"
Forced them into unions that made wages so high businesses fled to cheaper labor overseas_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Back when liberals & socialists had much more influence over politics, infrastructure such as the interstate system was well funded. Ever since fundies, neocons & fiscal conservatives have taken over, the funding has decreased for building & maintaining infrastructure. I'm not saying the postal service is better than what has developed in the private sector, but I am saying that the postal service helped build a growing economy. Yes, corporations are violent, especially to unions.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
glad that dr west mentioned rabbi abraham joshua heschel
thorkyll 6 months ago
bring the tour to TULSA!
jylmama 6 months ago
You could take every single penny the wealthy in this Country have and give it to the poor. In 5 years the people you took the money from would be wealthy again and the people you gave it to would be poor again. The war on poverty has cost over 11 trillion dollars, and we still have the poor. Instead of hating successful people, the poor should be taught how to emulate them. That is IF you really want to help them.
HereinLasVegas 6 months ago
@HereinLasVegas
"The WAR on poverty has cost over 11 trillion dollars, and we still have the poor. Instead of hating successful people"
Hating successful people? Nice strawman, if indeed punishing them is what the intent was- they'd have ALL their money taken from them. Also, you said the word "WAR", ooooh, aaah! So, giving a chance the the poor = a no no, but keep the war effort in Afg and Ira okay?
TurboDally 6 months ago
@TurboDally @TurboDally Straw man?,. The only weapon the left has is class envy and class warfare. How does that help the poor? It doesn't. But it kepps them in power. BTW, ever see a poor Democrat in office? If you want to see who the REAL thievs are look no further. Yes, I said the word "war". It comes from your hero LBJ and his "new deal". He himself labled it "the war on poverty" Perhaps you should learn some history.
HereinLasVegas 6 months ago
@HereinLasVegas - The fact that corporations have already raided public coffers, shipped jobs overseas, increased the tax burden on the American middle class and now are legally allowed to buy out the government they've already declared war on the other classes.
A86 6 months ago 3
@A86 You are a brain washed fool. Wake up, the government that you no doubt support has robbed you blind, not "the coprporations" You best wake up and see what is happening instead of letting the deviders control you. Wake up! Only politicans can be bought, there are many interests that attempt to do so...blame the politicians who use that to buy your vote! It's not the system it is the corrupt people in it. But I guess you also support taking moral away from the system to, no?
HereinLasVegas 6 months ago
@HereinLasVegas - Didn't I just say that they're allowing the elite to rob the public? How does that sound like support?
"not 'the corporations'"
The corporations are the ones lobbying the government to pass policies in their favor and they're the ones being allowed to leech trillions of dollars in corporate welfare while they shift the tax burden onto the middle class and small businesses while shipping jobs overseas and keeping wages down. They're as much the problem as the government.
A86 6 months ago 4
@HereinLasVegas - "Only politicans can be bought"
Of course politicians are being bought, but who's buying them? It's not the citizens because most everyday people have nowhere near enough money to buy politicians, and the politicians aren't doing anything in our favor. I blame the politicians but I also have to blame the people buying them. To not would be like blaming Mafia enforcers for beating you up but not the Mafia they work for.
A86 6 months ago 4
@A86 "blame the politicians...also have to blame the people buying them."
Agreed_ Corporatism cannot exist without the monopoly of force that is the state_ The goods and services those corporations provide are not the problem we face, the profits they make are not the problem we face, the problem we face is, corporations ability to use the power of government to garner unfair advantages, like being exempt from lawsuits when they damage people or property, or getting massive tax funded bailouts_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - "Corporatism cannot exist without the monopoly of force"
True, although the state is not the only monopoly of force. Corporations have in the past and still in the present hire private forces and private armies to protect their interests. I agree about the way corporations use the government to give themselves unfair advantages but the profiteering is one of them. One of the ways they raise profits is by laying people off and keeping wages down as a cost-cutting measure.
A86 6 months ago 4
@A86 " Corporations have in the past and still in the present hire private forces and private armies to protect their interests."
Like security guards>? Thats called protecting ur property and it is morally justified_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - Crushing labor unions and people who speak out against a company is morally justified? I think not. You also justified another point: corporations cannot hold onto property with a monopoly of force. All you've done is substituted government force with private force. Now you have private landlords with private armies who acquire land by force or coercion and hold onto it with force. Basically a privately-owned state/dictatorship. Basically you support neo-fedualism.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 " Basically you support neo-fedualism."
Good straw man_ Not... I genuinely want to understand ur argument, why must you insist on butchering mine>? please explain how a democratically elected monopoly of force can make the world a peaceful place>?
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - I wasn't trying to make a straw man, your idea of a system genuinely sounds similar to Feudalism except without a king and with corporations or businesses replacing noble fiefdoms.
"how a democratically elected monopoly of force can make the world a peaceful place"
I didn't say it would necessarily make the world peaceful but a democratically-elected government can at least be more controlled by the public. A private monopoly of force only answers to the CEO or shareholders.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 "corporations or businesses replacing noble fiefdoms."
In a free market businesses by definition do not engage in any violence to sell products_ Think of dating, it is a totally free market, no government intervention, u can make ur self as sexy as u want, but u cannot rape_ Now apply these same principles to economy, that is what I favor_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
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@evandonghue2 - "In a free market businesses by definition do not engage in any violence to sell products"
1) A free market does not and never has existed on a national scale; 2) I wasn't talking about selling products, though companies already do use violence to amass profit (such as Halliburton and Blackwater). Companies can and do use force to gain property or to put down opposition or impediments to profit. Such as companies hiring hitmen to kill labor union leaders.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 "corporations or businesses replacing noble fiefdoms."
Have you ever studied the gilded age>? a time with very little government interference into the economy_The U.S. economy grew at the fastest rate in its history, with real wages, wealth, GDP, and capital formation all increasing rapidly_ Have you ever read Hayek's road to serfdom>? youtube search: "road to serfdom" _ Just a short video that will help u to understand my perspective a little better_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - I had to study that period for my Bachelor's in Econ. There was more government intervention than some people like to think. Lots of kickbacks, special policies and government deals with trusts back in those days. There was growth in GNP and capital formation in the 1870s and 1880s followed by a big depression in the 1890s. GDP growth (and real wage growth) was just as fast or faster from the mid-40s to the mid-60s, a time with more government intervention than now.
A86 6 months ago
@TurboDally And if you really want to help the porr, theach them what it take to be successful. Things like not havin 5 childeren before they get married, finishing school, speaking proper english, acting like a civilized human being etc....
HereinLasVegas 6 months ago
@HereinLasVegas " If you really want to help the poor teach them what it takes to be successful. "
Yes, the poor need to learn skills that are marketable_ But instead they support a tax system that steals from the very people that would give them both the training and employment they need to improve their situations_ Sure the government will pay lip service to poverty for political gain, then use the money raised to wage wage on poor people in the middle east_ Class warfare is not the answer_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - "But instead they support a tax system that steals"
1) The top 10% in this nation owns over 80% of the nation's financial assets yet only pays 20% of the taxes but receives the majority of government subsidies and tax breaks. They're already stealing from the people. Having them pay closer to their fair share is "theft"?; 2) Corporate profits have never been higher. They have all the money they need to enact training services and hire people. They'd rather just use cheap labor.
A86 6 months ago 4
@A86 "1) The top 10% in this nation owns over 80% of the nation's financial assets yet only pays 20% "
Source>?
"The majority of government subsidies"
I oppose all government intervention into the economy_
"They have all the money they need to enact training services and hire people. They'd rather just use cheap labor."
Thats how they stock the shelves with the goods we use everyday for cheap prices_ Low cost labor is good for consumers_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - "Source?"
World Institute For Development Economics Research:
(.) gizmag (.) com / go / 6571 /
Low cost labor is beneficial for consumers in the short run but in the long-run it hurts them. Low-cost labor eventually replaces American consumers, that's why we have problems now with outsourcing and employers using illegal immigrants for cheap labor, and companies not raising wages since the early 80s. Read "WalMart: The High Cost of Low Price".
A86 6 months ago 2
@A86 "Having them pay closer to their fair share is "theft"?"
america has one of the highest corporate income tax in the world_ Also has one of the highest capital gains tax_ While other counties, like canada, have lowered these taxes, to be more competitive, you propose raising them... ok_ I guess you want more unemployment_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - America's effective corporate tax rate is close to 22%. Most middle class citizens pay more than that per year in taxes. Canada's effective tax rate is closer to 26%. So, Canada and the EU have higher tax rates and there is no mass exodus of corporations.
There's also the question of why should corporate taxes be lowered? Why should they pay less than average American in taxes?
A86 6 months ago 4
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@A86 "America's effective corporate tax rate is close to 22%. "
"effective">? What does that mean>? The highest corporate tax rate is 35%_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
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@TurboDally "So, giving a chance the the poor = a no no, but keep the war effort in Afg and Ira okay?"
No, end the wars_ But rewarding people for non productive behavior will only lead to more no productive behavior_ The poor do need a chance, to work hard, start at the bottom and work their way up, this does not have anything to do with political action, this has to do with making yourself valuable to your fellow man/woman_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
Yeah, let's have Helicopter Ben shower the poor with more of his worthless green paper. That'll work.
rwalkenhorst 6 months ago
@rwalkenhorst actually that might have worked back in 07- 08, just imagine if QE1 & 2 and tarp and any other bailouts went to the tax payers instead of the corporations and banks and foreign banks.
23animanga 6 months ago
@23animanga Yeah, and imagine how much better still it would be if they simply left wealth in the hands of the people who earned it so they can spend, save, invest or give it away as they see fit.
rwalkenhorst 6 months ago
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@23animanga You could take every single penny the wealthy in this Country have and give it to the poor. In 5 years the people you took the money from would be wealthy again and the people you gave it to would be poor again. The war on poverty has cost over 11 trillion dollars, and we still have the poor. Instead of hating successful people, the poor should be taught how to emulate them. That is IF you really want to help them.
HereinLasVegas 6 months ago
Housing is a human right? I call the Trump Tower!
Govt is making everyone poor. The only rich people that steal from the poor are the ones that are connected to the govt, 'Jeffrey Immelt, G.E.' The poor pay more for everything because of govt. Govt looting is the problem.
goodinohio 6 months ago
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STOLEN FROM THE POOR, GIVEN TO THE RICH.
$ 23.7 TRILLION of OUR Money DISAPPEARED
youtube. com/watch?v=Fd-eC2iKQps
• $6.8 trillion mysteriously disappears from Federal Reserve
• $2.3 trillion mysteriously disappears from FDIC
• $7.4 trillion mysteriously disappears from US Treasury
• $7.2 trillion mysteriously disappears from GOV programs & institutions
=$23.7 TRILLION
cbsnews. com/stories/2009/07/20/cbsnews_investigates/main5175781.shtml
abcnews.go. com/Business/Politics/story?id=8140184&page=1
halcyon0830 6 months ago
BIS is what they call Bank for International Settlements. It's located in Basel, Switzerland. Into it pours the cream from the centralized world money whirlpool -- quadrillions of dollars taken from humans by the world's Rothschild-owned central banks. Picture money coming in from all corners. All those interest payments on all those economic-hit-men-made impossible poor-country loans, all those credit card penalties, skyrocketing late fees, foreclosure clean-ups, income taxes etc.
is. gd/EjG0Jv
halcyon0830 6 months ago
Iraq & Afghan Wars= FOUR TRILLION DOLLARS
news.yahoo. com/blogs/lookout/much-wars-cost-report-says-4-trillion-130934180.html
Rumsfeld Stole 2.3 TRILLION During 9/11
cbsnews. com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml
PNAC's Dov Zakheim gave Israel ONE TRILLION
pittsburgh.indymedia. org/news/2005/01/17203.php
Congress gave Israel $ THREE TRILLION FOR FREE
washington-report. org/us-subscription-options/4641-the-costs-to-american-taxpayers-of-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-3-trillion.pdf
halcyon0830 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
HUMANS MEET YOUR OWNERS
independent.co. uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-rothschild-story-a-golden-era-ends-for-a-secretive-dynasty-756388.html
tobefree.wordpress. com/2010/05/10/the-rothschilds-world-kingpins-worth-500-trillion-they-own-reuters-ap-and-fix-the-price-of-gold
guardian.co. uk/world/2005/dec/09/religion.uk
rense. com/general79/tril.htm
These Zionist Parasites RUINED Nations & Economies and STOLE TRILLIONS FROM US 24/7. Where there is war, oil & banking, theres a Rothschild controlling it
halcyon0830 6 months ago
Smiley/West started their tour with native americans_ Native americans are poor because of the state, tavis_ No race of people in american history have experienced more government interventions/wars/welfare/bribes/lies_ Blacks in america have had similar government interventions, welfare has destroyed black families_ Does poverty persists in spite of government intervention or because of it>? History gives us the painfully obvious answer_The only cure for poverty is learning a valuable skill_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Govt funds job education & training.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP Govt has no money_ It has debt_ 14 trillion not including entitlements_ Government has to steal money to pay for "job education & training"_ In the medical field a radiologist has to go to school for 2 years to take a picture, that person could be trained on the job, making money and costing the tax payer zero, instead the government will give that person a 40,000 debt to pay for education to do a job that one day soon a machine will do_
evandonghue2 6 months ago 2
@evandonghue2 Most US govt debt is owed to the US govt. For example, the govt has borrowed from social security. Also, most US debt comes from the Pentagon & tax cuts (along with corporate subsidies & bailouts), not social services. The problem is that our govt has been taken over by corporations. The solution is to get corporate money out of Washington. If tax rates were increased to what they were in the past & military spending was decreased, we would now have a massive surplus.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago 6
@MarmaladeINFP "Most US govt debt is owed to the US govt. "
Is that supposed to make me feel better>? It doesn't_ Have you ever thought about the damage to poor people caused by a dollar that has lost 80% of it's value in 30 years>? Or that fact that savings accounts garner nearly nothing because of the federal reserve dictating interest rates>? This happens because government cannot defy the laws of economics forever, please look into the history of any fiat money, never ends well_
evandonghue2 6 months ago 3
@evandonghue2 I hope one day to have a real democracy in this country instead of our present corporatocracy that has created the debt crisis. That is the only real choice: govt of the people, by the people, for the people; or govt of the plutocracy, by the plutocracy, for the plutocracy.
The point about the debt is that it's another thing that most people don't understand. Govt debt being owed to the govt isn't the same as normal debt. It's important most of the debt is't to foreign investors.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
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@MarmaladeINFP "That is the only real choice: govt of the people, by the people, for the people; or govt of the plutocracy, by the plutocracy, for the plutocracy."
What about no government at all_ Government is the initiation of force to solve problems, why cannot all the functions of the state be voluntary>?
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 An anarchist society has never existed in a developed country that is industrialized with a modern economy. There are undeveloped countries that exist in various degrees of anarchy, but most of them are failed states and only remain anarchistic because of conflict being maintained through international forces. The closest you'll get to genuine anarchy is certain hunter-gatherer tribes that still live in isolation. I have no problem with utopian ideals, but our problems remain.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP " An anarchist society has never existed in a developed country that is industrialized with a modern economy."
Government is force_ Whenever u decide to use government to solve ur problem u r choosing to use violence to solve that problem, there is no ex-post-facto justification you can say to avoid this glaring fact_ As for your argument above, the same could have been said of slavery, "no society can exist without slavery" people cried, but it was abolished so will the state_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Corporations use violence as well. In the 19th century, the Pinkertons had more agents than the US military and they operated internationally. Corporations still use private military forces and local goons in violently breaking up labor movements & such. The private violent force of slavery was abolished by the govt, certain people continued to trade slaves even after it was made illegal & they were only stopped by the Civil War.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "orporations use violence as well. In the 19th century"
Thoreau would say your are swiping at the branches of evil_ The root of institutional violence is the state, who do you think filled the ranks of these mercenary corporations>? Were these men not trained by the state in their armies>? Brainwashed by it's education system>? Yes_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Thoreau was a left-libertarian who criticized the unregulated crony capitalism of his day and who criticized the problems of high wealth disparity.
benjamindavidsteele.wordpress. com/2010/08/30/henry-david-thoreau-founding-father-of-american-libertarian-thought-by-jeff-riggenbach/
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "Corporations use violence as well. In the 19th century,"
Ha, you point to some distant past when a corporation did some evil thing while the government of america is engaged in 6 wars in the middle east, has bases in over 100 countries, and has killed a million people in iraq_ This is just the atrocity de jour, I can list as many more state atrocities as there is room on this comment page, but I wont_ Statism is the elephant u r choosing to ignore_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 I don't need to point to the past. Even in recent years, corporations have used private militias & goons to commit violence against workers & union leaders in developing countries. These transnational corporations also control our govts. All of these wars are done because private interests want them. We have inverted totalitariaism. The transnational corporations are more powerful and more elusive than any govt. People can revolt against a govt but not a transnational corporation.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
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@MarmaladeINFP "These transnational corporations also control our govts."
Total agreement, all im saying is the act of providing goods and services is not the problem, the government, granted with the moral obligation to use violence to solve problems is_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 But not all govts have been controlled by transnational corporations. Inverted totalitarianism is something entirely new that hasn't existed before. If you want to see a govt that successfully eliminated crony capitalism & political corruption, then look at the sewer socialists who ran many local govts for decades. No libertarian-run govt in the US has succeeded to the same degree. As for anarchism, it's a nice utopian ideal that never has existed. Even tribal people use violence.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Lincoln noted that not a single state govt had ended slavery since the beginning of the country. There was no evidence that slavery would end without federal intervention. Even today, in places where there isn't govt enforcement, slavery continues to operate.
Anything that is anti-democratic is violent force. A govt can be democratic, but major corporations are designed to not operate democratically. This is why they commit so much violence in countries around the world.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP " There was no evidence that slavery would end without federal intervention."
Wrong, all over the world slavery was phased out and in many places without war, slaves were simply purchased and freed, no war_ State intervention protected slavery, to not recognize this is ignorance_ who else but government power could prop up such a impossible institution>?
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Slavery was in some cases phased out without war but never without govt intervention. Lincoln didn't force war on the South. They chose to secede so they could continue slavery. Lincoln was seeking to end the force that Southern slaveholders were using against slaves. Yes, sometimes force has to be ended with force. Even libertarians acknowledge that force is justified in defense against force. Even when the govt illegalized slave trade, the South continued. You can't blame govt.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "Anything that is anti-democratic is violent force. "
How does majority rule make theft not theft>? Please, take a stab, ur bright, I would like an honest answer_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Don't be stupid, please don't be stupid. Democracy isn't majority rule. Even you can't be stupid enough to believe that.
benjamindavidsteele.wordpress. com/2010/08/14/us-republic-democracy/
benjamindavidsteele.wordpress. com/2010/08/17/us-republic-democracy-pt-2/
benjamindavidsteele.wordpress. com/2011/08/17/us-republic-democracy-pt-3/
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "Also, most US debt comes from the Pentagon & tax cuts..."
I hate war, but this is wrong_ Defense is about 16% of the budget_ Medicare/SS/welfare are 45%_ Facts google federal budget pie chart_
evandonghue2 6 months ago 2
@evandonghue2 That is disinfo many have been deceived by. Defense discretionary spending is 85% of the budget, & defense spending is highest since WWII. Trust fund spending such as social security pay for itself because people just get the money back that they put into it. Also, a deceptive part is past military spending is included as non-military spending.
w ww. voa. org/Get-Involved/Advocate/Issue-Alerts_1/Non-defense-Discretionary-Spending
w ww. warresisters. org/pages/piechart. htm
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
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@MarmaladeINFP "That is disinfo many have been deceived by. Defense discretionary spending is 85% of the budget,"
While I agree that the DOD is probably lying about the true cost of war, my numbers are sourced by the congressional budget office, so it is their "disinfo not mine_ Besides if you believe the DOD is lying why wouldn't the dept in charge of SS be telling the truth>?
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 It's not matter of truth or false in a simple sense. The info is factually true, but it's just presented in a particular way to present a particular way of looking at it. There is nothing wrong with that per se. It's only disinfo when politicians & pundits continually repeat it that way in order to intentionally misinform & mislead the public.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP " If tax rates were increased to what they were in the past & military spending was decreased, we would now have a massive surplus."
Agreed, but where do you intend we find these angles to lead the monopoly of force that is the government>? This is why free people want protection from government not to be given handouts, but to be able to work/trade and be independent_
evandonghue2 6 months ago 8
@evandonghue2 Agreed, but where do you intend we find these angels to lead the monopoly of force that is corporatist control over the global economy & over govts all over the world? It's not about angels. That is the beauty of democracy. If you concentrate power in the few, there will always be corruption which is equally true for the bureaucracy of big biz. Only a democracy can protect against concentrated power. And only an economy operating in a functioning democracy can be a free market.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "And only an economy operating in a functioning democracy can be a free market."
In your ideal democracy can 51% of the population choose to take the property of 49% of the population>? This is why I believe democracy fails_ The non aggression principle is the center of morality in a free market not the whims of the mob majority_ Philosophy, reason, and truth not mob rule should be the ideal for a voluntary society_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "That is the beauty of democracy."
Democracy is the problem, for too long americans have elected clowns that promise them a free lunch, well now there's no food_ The government spent 3.7 trillion in 2011, much of it the result of well meaning politicians pandering for votes with stolen money_ We need restrictions (at least) on democracy, that is what the constitution intended_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 You can't blame our present political system on democracy. We don't have a functioning democracy. Our democracy as a political system is already so restricted as to not exist in any practical way. That is obvious to anyone who isn't a complete fucktard. Our govt is controlled by a plutocracy. We have a banana republic that has been a corporatocracy and is becoming or already has become inverted totalitarianism.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 If we had a functioning democracy, our representatives wouldn't make decisions that most Americans disagree with. Most Americans on key issues are to the left of Obama and other Washington Democrats. The Tea Party minority that has a lot of power is to the right of even average Republicans. How is an elite ruling over the American population supposedly, in your mind, a mobocracy?
benjamindavidsteele.wordpress. com/2010/01/23/us-demographics-increasing-progressivism/
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
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@MarmaladeINFP '' built the initial internet"
Pff, the internet is being created right now, ever growing, did the government create ur blog>? No, continuing human action created and continues to create the internet_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 It isn't a choice between govt & free markets. First, govts have always existed. Even tribal people have govts & courts & use violence to enforce laws. Second, the only time relatively free markets have existed is when there is govt regulation to referee fair dealings & to restrict monopolies. Without regulation, capitalism will inevitably lead to monopolies. Your choice is to have a democratic govt that uses force or a non-democratic feudal corporation that uses force.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "govt regulation to referee fair dealings & to restrict monopolies"
In the age of european monarchy monopoly literally ment that a king granted sole right to produce a good or service_ Today, government still grants monopolies, over education, transportation, energy, dispute resolution, and most importantly money_ I challenge you to show me a single monopoly in history without government intervention>>>>
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "Without regulation, capitalism will inevitably lead to monopolies. "
When>? Government creates monopolies, like the federal reserve, with the monopoly on counterfeiting money_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Just look at capitalism prior to the progressive era when regulations were implemented to break up monopolies & keep them from forming. There were many monopolies in the 19th century when capitalism was the most unregulated. That is reality. Like it or not, the facts are the facts. I'm sorry that your fantasies are so disconnected from reality.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "There were many monopolies in the 19th century when capitalism was the most unregulated. That is reality. Like it or not, the facts are the facts."
I cannot disagree more, google: the failure of antitrust_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 "monopolies in the 19th century when capitalism was the most unregulated."
Have you ever studied the gilded age>? a time with very little government interference into the economy_The U.S. economy grew at the fastest rate in its history, with real wages, wealth, GDP, and capital formation all increasing rapidly_ Have you ever read Hayek's road to serfdom>? youtube search: "road to serfdom" _ Just a short video that will help u to understand my perspective a little better_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Actually, in many ways the 19th century had the most govt intervention. From the first president to more than a century following, the US govt used protectionist policies to protect against transnational corporations & to encourage local economic growth. Also, the US govt right from the beginning subsidized certain markets such as printing press businesses. OTOH, the 19th cent was the age of the Robber Barons, the most brutal, oppressive & monopolistic business owners in US history
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 The internet is the perfect example of what I'm describing. The govt creates the basic platform & creates the regulations. With a free market established & maintained by the govt, private innovators can build further upon the public investment. Continuing human action (which includes elected officials, voting citizens, civic activists, private investors, & entrepreneurs) created and continues to create the internet & the entire economy. No single person does anything alone.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "The govt creates the basic platform & creates the regulations."
The internet is great because of the lack of regulation_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 The internet is based on vast regulations. Just because you are ignorant of and unaware of them doesn't mean the regulations don't exist. Do some research. You can't honestly be that clueless, can you?
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "The internet is based on vast regulations."
So if our loving government stopped regulating the interwebs would fail>? Ohh no, guess I should worship my overlords and shut up_ What regulation is responsible for the internet>?
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Nothing would fail. In fact, certain businesses would be so successful they'd become monopolies. Those corporate overlords would be much more oppressive than our present democratically elected representatives. Just ask working class people who lived during the period following the Industrial Revolution and prior to the Progressive Era regulations. The oppression by corporations back then included: private violence & murder (Pinkertons), dangerous work conditions, low wages, etc.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP " The internet is based on vast regulations."
The more you type the more I win_ The internet is "based" on millions of people, collective, voluntary, human action_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 This is why I want a democracy instead of a corporatocracy. In a corporatocracy, we can only hope our rulers will take care of us & so we are forced to feel grateful for whatever scraps they throw down to us. In a democracy, we would be forced to be responsible for our govt actions. It's easy for a plutocratic politician to take money from the lower classes to spend how he wishes. It's much harder when, in a democracy, you are making decisions about your own money.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - The government has been more controlled at times in the past. The problem is we've given corporations and other special interest groups much more power than they've had in previous generations and the people who get elected into office these days are a different bunch than in days past. These days most politicians are lawyers or corporate PR people by trade.
We are working - the problem is wages aren't going up because corporations are getting handouts from the government.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 "The government has been more controlled at times in the past. "
The government is always controlled_ Everyone wants to use government to control their enemies, the poor want to steal from the rich, the rich want to subject the poor_ As humans can't we stop the class struggle_ After all, working together voluntarily, providing goods and services to each other is the way we will overcome poverty_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 I could just as easily say everyone wants to use the economy, corporations, wealth & private power to control their enemies, to steal from others, to subject others. Both are equally true & equally false. Not everyone is violent as you know you would be if you gained power. It reminds me of research showing conspiracy theorists who worry about abuse of power admit that they would if given the chance conspire against others. They assume others are as fucked in the head as they are.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP " I could just as easily say everyone wants to use the economy, corporations, wealth & private power to control their enemies,"
Accept in a freed market private industry would be checked by their consumers_ People vote everyday with their dollars, just look at organic foods, 10 years ago u could barely find them, now, because of consumer demands they are everywhere_ The government is force, it never changes because it steals ur money and needs not ur consent_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Except we don't have a free market, never had a free market, never will have a free market. All markets are controlled. It's just a matter of who controls them: govts, monopolies, religions, communities, etc. You really are simpleminded. People vote with their dollars in the sense people vote for their representatives: Coke vs Pepsi, Republican vs Democrat. The plutocrats decide what choices we get.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP " The plutocrats decide what choices we get."
LIke BS to plants, you provide fertile ground for illogical fallacy_ Take the fashion industry, a largely unregulated market, there is no intellectual property, meaning no designer or brand can patent a style, cut, color, shape, ect_ The fashion industry provides ever changing styles, constantly seeking to please customers fickle whims_This kind of freedom applied to pharmaceuticals would cut prices and increase access to drugs_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Do you have the choice to drink clean water out of a stream? Do you have a choice to walk freely without someone claiming you are on their property? I could ask hundreds of other similar questions. Modern civilization with industrialization, pollution, environmental destruction, species extinction, overpopulation & privatization of land & resources has led to the elimination of many choices people had in the past. Yes, new choices are created by other people, but that isn't freedom
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "Do you have the choice to drink clean water out of a stream?"
Yes and property rights protects that_ Google: Property rights and environmental protection, might be a good read for the off chance that your prejudices are unfounded_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 But you don't have the choice to drink clean water out of a stream. The reason you don't have this choice is because water has become too polluted. You would become sick & possibly die if you drink it. This is why after the Industrial Revolution cities had to start filtering water to make it safe for consumption. In the past, someone could drink clean water for free. Now, we have to pay to drink clean water. That is called externalization of costs.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "Do you have a choice to walk freely without someone claiming you are on their property?"
If someone does not want u on their property, no, you don't have a right to it_ This is sandbox logic, remember when we were kids, everyone has toys, you can share, and if you want human interaction/friends you will share, but no one has the right to take your toys_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 What if a few people owned all of the land in the world and there was no govt. Some right-liberarians & anarcho-capitalists think that private property can be defended with violence. This would lead to feudalism.
Land is a limited resource. All land is stolen. There are indigenous people who live next to & in some cases rent from the people whose grandparents & great grandparents stole the land using violence & oppression from their grandparents & great grandparents.
Freedom? ROTFL
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "All land is stolen."
Absolutes are rarely true_ I am not responsible for the perversion of property rights through history, I simply respect other people's things and accept the same in return_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 You personally benefit from the perversion of property rights through history, including within living memory, including events that happened in your lifetime & are happening right now around the world. Consider this scenario. Someone kills one of your family members & steals their property. You discover the property had been sold. When you tell the person the property had been sold to, wouldn't you expect them to give it back or expect the courts to force them to give it back?
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
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@MarmaladeINFP "What if a few people owned all of the land in the world"
How, bought with money printed out of thin air>? Read this, does this argument make any sense>? The world is a big enough for all of us your dead wrong about overpopulation_ The state at some time might have served man, but now man serves the state_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 I recommend you read Thomas Paine's 'Agrarian Justice'. The US govt & Americans as a free people wouldn't even exist without Paine. Like no other, he understood the problems Americans faced.
Benjamin Franklin: "You, Thomas Paine, are more responsible than any other living person on this continent for the creation of what are called the United States of America."
John Adams: "Without the pen of the author of Common Sense, the sword of Washington would have been raised in vain."
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP Still looking for that free market monopoly>?
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 There is no free market. All markets are controlled by someone, either private monopolies or govt. I'll trust a democratic govt over an anti-democratic feudal corporation any day. If you like free markets, you should like govts. The closest humans have ever come to a large scale free market is through govt regulation. Everything else is utopian fantasy which are pleasant fictions, but in reality we must deal with what is proven.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "There is no free market."
Im living the free market, you can't stop it, free people are always going to trade, and if need be in underground economies_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 You can live in whatever fantasy you prefer. More power to you. But one day reality might smack you so hard in the face that you'll wake up from those pleasant dreams. Reality is a bitch. Ultimately, there is no escape from the facts of reality. But I guess enjoy your fantasies while they last.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "You can live in whatever fantasy you prefer."
Thank you, that is all I ask_ To be left in peace, to my own devices as long as my actions do not violate other's property_ I only wish our government could have the same civility_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 It doesn't matter what you ask. Reality is still reality. Your decisions and actions effect others just as the decisions and actions of others effect you. There is no escaping this. As social animals with a growing population on a finite planet with finite resources and finite land to live upon, there is no way to escape effecting or being effected by others. However, you are free to try. Someone right now is setting up a libertarian island. Move there & prove your ideology works.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "Reality is still reality."
As you define it Im sure_ Stop being so combative it accomplishes nothing and makes you look like a child_ We are social animals, if we understand property rights/non aggression we can interact with each other in peaceful ways_ The gr8 thing about anacho-capitalism is that we support the rights of people to give up property if they wish,live in a commune and do as they please, we only ask the same respect, not to be aggressed on for claiming property_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 I personally consider someone childish who advocates childish fantasies that would have horrible real world consequences. Your wanting to attack all the programs that have helped working class & middle class Americans is combative. Your wanting to attack regulations that have protected workers & small business owners is combative. Yes, I will combat the horror that you advocate. I'd be stupid not to do so. If ideas like yours convince enough people, the future will be a living hell
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "someone childish who advocates childish fantasies"
I advocate non aggression and the seeking out of truth_ I advocate finding peaceful solution to social problems_ I take these principles very seriously and have tried to fully apply it in my life, it works for me_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
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@MarmaladeINFP " But I guess enjoy your fantasies while they last."
No one is promised tomorrow, but I will say this, since applying this philosophy to my life, my relationships are stronger, my happiness is greater, Im optimistic about my future, and my bank account is much much bigger_ In fact, Im creating jobs for myself and others_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Yes, you are doing all of this as part of a democratic society and supported by the public investment (infrastructure, education, regulations, emergency services, etc) of this democratic society. That is the beauty of a democratic society. It allows people like you to work hard & get a fair chance at succeeding.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "All markets are controlled by someone, either private monopolies or govt."
Still waiting for that "private monopoly", with no government mandates,intervention, regulatory advantages_ Non exist, your perpetuating a lie_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2
My stating facts is a lie?
And your stating fantasies is truth?
ummm.... okay
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 In Nazi death camps, they'd create 2 lines. Detainees were given a free choice of which line to get in, but both went to the gas chambers. The false choice merely was given to distract them so they wouldn't revolt. As Meir Berliner, who fought the Nazis, said: "When the oppressors give me two choices, I always take the third."
The point is you always must consider which options are being disallowed in any presented set of choices. Freedom doesn't mean submitting to false choices.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "" If tax rates were increased"
Kennedy cut taxes, but the government collected more in taxes, same with the reagan tax cuts and bush cuts_ Why>? Because cutting taxes creates more millionaires, more millionaires means more tax revenue_ Point is, it is better to get a smaller piece of more pies_ Corporate taxes in america are the highest in the world, if you tax the rich they only move their money to more tax favorable countries, think outsourcing_
evandonghue2 6 months ago 3
@evandonghue2 The highest marginal tax rate averaged above 70 percent from the late 1940s to 1980. Also, during those decades GDP grew, manufacturing grew, wealth of average Americans grew, wealth disparity decreased, and the American economy became dominant around the world.
w ww. csmonitor. com/Business/Robert-Reich-s-Blog/2011/0216/A-super-high-tax-for-the-super-rich-Wouldn-t-be-the-first-time.
w ww. econdataus. com/taxcuts. html
"The argument that the near-doubling of revenues during..."
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
"...Reagan's two terms proves the value of tax cuts is an old argument. It's also extremely flawed. At 99.6 percent, revenues did nearly double during the 80s. However, they had likewise doubled during EVERY SINGLE DECADE SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION! They went up 502.4% during the 40's, 134.5% during the 50's, 108.5% during the 60's, Hence, claiming that the Reagan tax cuts caused the doubling of revenues is like a rooster claiming credit for the dawn."
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
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@evandonghue2 You are a fount of disinfo. Corporate tax rates are high in the US, but US corporate tax revenues are some of the lowest among developed countries. This is because of tax loopholes & tax havens that allow some corporations to pay very little and others to pay nothing. These major corporations have teams of lobbyists pushing tax policies friendly to big biz & teams of tax lawyers to avoid paying taxes.
benjamindavidsteele.wordpress. com/2010/11/16/real-wages-wealth-disparity/
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Back when tax rates were higher & there was a surplus, the US govt was funding education, job training, & infrastructure. It did all of this while avoiding a debt. The middle class was growing & wealth in all classes was growing.
I understand your utopian ideals, but I'm talking about reality. The govt gives tax breaks for companies that provide further training including on-the-job training. So what's your issue?
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
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evandonghue2 6 months ago
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@MarmaladeINFP "I I understand your utopian ideals,"
Then you should understand theft is no way to solve societies problems_ Back when the government ran surpluses they spent less than 2 trillion a year now its over 7 trillion_ Are you arguing that they should be able to spend more>? The only affective job training the government does is training the afghanis to grow poppies_
evandonghue2 6 months ago 3
@evandonghue2 It's only theft when not a democracy. Right now, we don't have a functioning political democracy. The political system has been corrupted to the point it has become a banana republic, somewhere betwen corporatism & inverted totalitarianism. Yes, I don't like having my money stolen by plutocrats to serve the interests of plutocrats. This is why I support democracy: govt of the people, by the people, for the people. I want to democratically make my own decisions about my money.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "It's only theft when not a democracy."
No, if my neighbors vote to take my house, that is still theft_ Im not saying democracy is useless, but it has to be checked by morality_ Democracy as long as it does not conflict with property rights and the non aggression principle is fine_ No one should be allowed to initiate violence to solve their problems, ever, it is never morally justified_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Humans are social animals. There is no such thing as an absolutely isolated individualistic creation or profit. Land would have no value if not for communities with public investments into infrastructure. Companies build factories where they can find an educated/trained workforce, also usually publicly funded. As Paine understood, there are many social problems that are collectively caused by modern society such as large populations. This is why the Lockean Proviso is necessary.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "This is why the Lockean Proviso is necessary."
The Lockean Proviso is an affirmation of property rights, unfortunately, some have perverted it to mean land acquisition is illegitimate_ Georgism presumes land is owned by society, but what is society anyway, who defines it>?... And please don't say "the guys with the biggest guns">? Georgian paradox: "How can you effectively own anything if you're barred from owning the land you're standing on?"_ This is bad logic_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Georgism doesn't assume anything. It merely states a fact. All ownership of land is theft. Almost every piece of land that is owned once was lived on freely by people. People were forcibly removed, often along with genocide, for our present land ownership system to be put in place. In some communities, the grandchildren & great grandchildren of the victims of land theft still live next to, often renting from the grandchildren & great granchildren of the land thiefs.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP We have higher taxes today than at any time in american history_ The tax rate means nothing,deficit spending is taxes_ Just because the government is deferring payment and growing the debt does not mean taxes are low, only means taxes are being put off into the future_ Debt is taxes_
"So what's your issue?"
The government is incapable of curing poverty, only a competitive job market can do that_ And with a enormous debt, the highest corporate tax don't expect a good job market_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "Govt funds job education & training."
You mean like the liberal arts degrees people are getting into tens of thousands of dollars of debt for>? Im sure they will enjoy living with mom for the rest of her life_
evandonghue2 6 months ago 5
@evandonghue2 First, yes an educated population is better than an ignorant population. In oppressive societies such as North Korea, the people are kept ignorant and their ignorance keeps them from revolting. The middle class in America was built on publicly funded education.
Second, companies get tax breaks for providing their own job education & training. Trust me, these companies aren't getting tax breaks by sending their employees to liberal arts degrees.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "The middle class in America was built on publicly funded education."
No, the middle class was built on better productivity, more production for cheaper prices, more investment in capital goods that make the labor of people more valuable_ Public education is funded at the end of a gun, part of the reason why our public education system fails to teach logic, ethics, economics, and philosophy is because if it did any astute student would recognize this ethical contradiction_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 The govt built the interstate system that allowed mass transport, built the postal service that allowed mass mailings, built the public education system that created an educated population of trained workers, built the initial internet that has transformed modern society & economics. Shut the fuck up about your bullshit about govt violence. I proved without a doubt that corporations are equally complicit in doing violence through govt & doing violence on their own. Wake the fuck up
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "Shut the fuck up about your bullshit about govt violence."
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
George Washington
First president of US (1732 - 1799)
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 Yes, govt is public force to counter private force. What is your point?
The founding generation started the Boston Tea Party to fight against a transnational corporation. The founding fathers, in particular George Washington, implemented protectionist policies as their first official actions. They weren't anarchists, especially not anarcho-capitalists. George Washington is a horrible example for your argument as he was the head of govt force which he obviously saw as necessary.
MarmaladeINFP 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "Yes, govt is public force to counter private force. What is your point?"
My point is, private force, is immoral, never justified_ Whereas governmental force, like throwing a man tried of paying for war in jail, is considered moral and justified_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@MarmaladeINFP "They weren't anarchists, especially not anarcho-capitalists. "
Listen, I am only taking a philosophy to it's logical conclusion, if the initiation of force is the ultimate evil in the world than government cannot exist_ That is not to say dispute resolution will not exist, that is not to say violence won't exist, it is only to say the initiation of violence is not the answer to social problems_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - "Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
In that quote Washington says it's a "troublesome servant". Never does he say there should be no government intervention, just that it should not be left to "irresponsible action". In his last State of the Union Address in 1796 he specifically advocates some social programs he thought it would be necessary for the government to provide.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 "Never does he say there should be no government intervention"
True, but after a 200+ year experiment, I would say the minarchist libertarian government that was set up after the american revolution has failed_ The once limited constitutional republic has become the largest and most powerful state in human history_ It is clear to me the smaller the government, the more economic freedom, the bigger tax base, that eventually becomes a huge government_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - I would say that we're economically more free today in many ways than we were back then. We don't have slavery (technically) today, people other than white male landowners can do business, people have the ability to move around to other areas or other countries to seek work, women aren't reliant on men for a living and they can work on their own, elderly people don't have to live with their kids or grandkids when they retire because they have SS, etc.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 "elderly people don't have to live with their kids or grandkids when they retire because they have SS,"
If you really care about the elderly, you should advocate sound money_ The reason so many of our seniors need SS, is because their dollar has lost 80% of it's value in their lifetime_ On top of that, 0% interest rates make it so that savers are punished_ A dollar saved in 1970 buys so much less with practically no return from interest_ If we had sound money saving would be rewarded_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - "you should advocate sound money"
I do. However, even when the American dollar was worth more back in the 40s and 50s most Americans didn't earn enough money to retire on and still live independently. Even with SS a lot of seniors still have to live with their kids or grandkids. I had to deal with a lot of citizens like that at my last job.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 " I would say that we're economically more free today "
I would agree, but that does not change the fact that our monetary system is currently making everyone that holds dollars poorer, with the exception of politically connected elites_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - "but that does not change the fact that our monetary system is currently making everyone that holds dollars poorer"
Agree with you 100% there. Actually, we also wouldn't need so many social programs today if we cut out some of the stuff the allows for and causes poverty. One of them being the mass outsourcing of good-paying jobs and another one being employers creating excuses to keep everyone's wage low. A big one is government giving out golden parachutes to failed industry.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 "his last State of the Union Address... he advocates social programs he thought it would be necessary "
I use that quote to illustrate that government is violence_ GW understood that and so should you_ Also, GW did not have the benefit of living through the failed american/european welfare system the has created a permanent underclass ignored and filed into government housing, segregated form economic opportunity_ They are very angry and it is on their behave I advocate economic freedom_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - "government is violence"
Yes, but it is not the only violence. A private military is no less violent than a government one.
You keep saying a "failed" system. Where is the failure? All the world's wealthiest countries are all social democracies. The countries with permanent underclasses are all either Stalinist or deregulated capitalist systems. The US underclass has significantly grown over the past 35 years as social programs have been dismantled.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 "yes, but it is not the only violence. A private military is no less violent than a government one."
Wrong_ WWI, WWII, vietnam... could go on and on, the state is clearly more violent than private enterprise_ Besides how is a private company gonna borrow trillions to bomb millions of people>? Never happened in history_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - Look up Blackwater/Xe and Halliburton. There are more private contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan now than there are GIs. They're no less violent or imperialistic.
"how is a private company gonna borrow trillions to bomb millions of people"
Two words: Government contracts.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 Look up Blackwater/Xe and Halliburton."
Listen, if a government hires a private contractor, pays them to provide a service, that is a government action, payed for with stolen money and would not be possible without the borrowing power of the federal government_
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - A government can hire a private contractor but so can most of today's megacorporations. Companies like Boeing, McDonnell-Douglas, GE, etc. have enough money to pour into entities like Blackwater. Since these militaries are for-profit then theoretically they can continue to increase in size and scope as they turn a profit. As companies gain more profit they have money to hire more contractors like them or give away as funding to increase the size of the private armies.
A86 6 months ago
@A86 "A government can hire a private contractor but so can most of today's megacorporations."
Ok, and when that happens, it will be immoral and any competent dispute resolution organization could deal with the guilty parties_ Im not saying it cannot happen, merely saying there should be an organization to mediate these disputes_ Once again, when government uses these tactics Im expected to feel patriotic/moral and put a flag outside my house, support the war_ Can you see this contradiction>?
evandonghue2 6 months ago
@evandonghue2 - I don't know about millions of people but Blackwater has killed at least thousands or tens of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. To me that's just as despicable. Even more despicable is how they fly under the radar of rules and regulations and they're being protected from this by the government while sponging off of tax dollars.
I agree with you about jingoism. WWII was the last war that I really feel any sense of national pride about.
A86 6 months ago