Now You Know

[joba606]

Moral to the story - DON'T BE A TERRORIST.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 lol

what kind of moral is that????

[joba606]

You have absolutely no chance to be waterboarded or placed in stress positions if you're not involved in terrorism.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 what u are saying is not true. Guantanamo has as final goal arrest "possible terrorist". So if u are muslem and u LOOK terrorist u can end up there. And how the hell dare the states to claim that they are a free country?

[joba606]

What you're saying is nonsense.

"See that Egyptian cab driver? He looks like a terrorist! Let's ship him to Cuba."

Don't you see how ridiculous that statement is?

There are jails and military bases all over the Middle East we can detain him in if we think he's a terrorist.

If he's positively identified as an Al Qaeda terrorist, he goes to Gitmo.

[Nuncaperdi]

But how can u even think about detaining anyone just because "U think he is a terrorist". i tought soldiers in Irak were fighting for freedom, for justice...and it seems they are fighting and dying for statements like "i can arrest you because I belive u are a terrorist"

U should check real stories of guatanamo prisoners, and u would realise that the procedure to identify an Al Qaeda terrorist isnt right.

[joba606]

People who commit terrorist or criminal acts in any country must be captured and held, until it's proven they are innocent.

You don't have jails in your country?

People aren't detained sometimes innocently, then released later when they're found innocent?

Because that happens in every country on planet Earth.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 Thats the difference btwn a democracy and a dictatorship...in a democracy is like u are innocent until something else is porved. And that what make us different of any dictatoship, where u are arrested and u have to prove your innocence.

[joba606]

We are a democracy - first, last and always.

Protecting our citizens from slaughter is the most important job of the government.

We are not a dictatorship, and we never will be.

As I said, in your country, my country and all the others, police arrest and detain people, and then question them in order to find the truth. If they're innocent, they're released. It's that simple.

It happens in every country, every day - including the United States and Spain.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606

Protecting our citizens is the most important....true. But its not right use any method to protect them. Torture, arbitrary arrestments...thats not the right way to protect your ppl. And its not even proved that it works. If u are arrested in any other democracy, its because there are proofs against you and there is not chance a guard can legally do anything to you.

How did u knw im from Spain??:)

[joba606]

@Nuncaperdi

It says you are from Spain on your YouTube channel.

Waterboarding and stress positions are nonlethal interrogation methods which our own soldiers are trained in, in case they're captured.

In 90% of the world's military and intelligence communities, if a terrorist is captured, they don't bother with waterboarding. He's brought into a basement, and then he's beaten with clubs.

George W. Bush REFUSED to do that.

Instead he chose methods that are physically harmless.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606

lol i didnt know that!

Even if its a nonlethal inerrogation is a way of torture, which is used with humans. Thats steping back on the human rights. Human rights are over anything else. An no governament has the right to take them away, no matter what happens, and its proven that torture gives more usual wrong information than real one.

[joba606]

Human rights belong to humans - not mass murderering fascist terrorists.

Yes, your government and my government can take our rights away from us - IF we break the law and hurt innocent people.

Waterboarding and stress positions were only used on high value captured terrorists - only 3 men in 8 years, by the way - when it was determined they were withholding information that would save lives.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 No government has the right to take away certain rights. If u break the law, take away ur freedom will be the answer. But u have the right to a fair trial, u have the right to a lawyer...there is ppl in guantanamo that has never been in front of a judge.How can you be sure that the guy u have in prision is there for a reason?Because someone told uthat he is guilty?In a trial this person will have the right to be defend, to be judge to have a sentence. Thats how civilized coutries work.

[joba606]

You are still ignoring how these creatures wound up in Gitmo to begin with.

They were captured on the battlefield by U.S. forces under fire.

The terrorists at Gitmo are not protected under the Geneva or Hague conventions. They could've - and in my opinion, should've - been summarily executed on the battlefield.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 You are ignoring that torture is susceptible to give wrong information. You are ignoring the fact that until now Guantanamo hasnt avoid terrorist atack (Madrid or London), you are ignoring that terrorism is using such practise to mobilize other young people that has lost everything becasue the war to joint some crazy religious groups. And whats its the most important, every human has the right to a fair trail and to be convicted.

[joba606]

@Nuncaperdi

Torture is unreliable...according to every leftist in the world. Not according to professional interrogators who've used it.

Khalid Sheik Mohammed wouldn't speak to his interrogators. After he was waterboarded, he admitted another 9/11 type plot - to crash jetliners into the Library Tower in Los Angeles, killing thousands, just as he did at the World Trade Center.

Being nice and understanding didn't work with Mohammed.

Waterboarding worked.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 Do u really belive that the "professional interrogators" would say something different? obviously they are going to defend their jobs and what they are doing. Answer me something: where is the limit? Where is the limit for torture?where is the limit to knw if the person is lying or saying the truth?

Is not about being nice, is about being fair.

[joba606]

@Nuncaperdi

So let me see if I understand you.

You think I should distrust the men whose job it is to protect my life and the lives of my family and my society, but believe it when a captured terrorist says he's been tortured - after he's been trained to say he's been tortured, upon capture.

The limit is: you will hide NOTHING from the interrogators. Answer all questions put to you.

Once that is understood, there will be no further problems.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 Yes u should distrust the men whose job is protect your life. Policemen have been involved in corruption and illegal practise many times, and they were suppose to protect you also. And as humans be do mistakes, we are not perfect machines.

The limit you are proposing is not good, because the interrogator will never be sure if the answer you are giving is right or not. So he will overwhelm you or do some other practise until he is sure you are not hiding anything.

[joba606]

@Nuncaperdi

"(The interrogator) will overwhelm you...until he is sure you are not hiding anything."

Absolutely correct !

He will not take cutthroat terrorists at their word. He WILL get to the truth, no matter how hard they try to hide it, so that the terrorists can continue to murder innocent people.

The terrorist is trying to slaughter me and my family, and the interrogator wants to stop him.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 So now the interrogator is some kind of god that knws whats true from whats not?Do u knw how easy it is that your own convictions betrait you? Lets imagine, something that can happen, you are convinced that a person in hiding u information. U will get trough everything just because u belive he is hiding u something. It might not be so. Interrogations can be made, but torture is not a solution. If someone hits me and says "i knw u are a terrorist" i will say yes just to avoid more pain.

[joba606]

@Nuncaperdi

No. The professional interrogator is not a god, he's just someone that has had many people lie to him, and through experience, knows the difference between someone lying to him and someone telling him the truth.

You want to believe that most or all American soldiers and interrogators have no restraint.

You can believe whatever you want - just don't ask me to believe it.

And I never suggested you were a terrorist.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 The terrorist thing was suppose to be an example how thing can be twisted. If I torture someone this person will say or do whatever to avoid more pain. So at the end he will say everything I "want to hear" which dont mean its true.

I strongly belive that when u allow certain "abuse" in interrogations, the law has to be behind of that. It cant be just decided by the person that is involved. A policeman cant simply shoot to whoever he wants.There is a law that explain him what a

[Nuncaperdi]

@Nuncaperdi situation requires to shoot. The same should be with the interrogation process of a terrorist. Why if everything is so "justifiable", do u have secret places where prisoners are hold back and no one really knws whats going on?

[joba606]

@Nuncaperdi

If a terrorist is being held in a KNOWN location, other terrorists may try to break him out of his holding place.

I keep telling you - terrorists are not ordinary criminals, and should never be treated like ordinary criminals.

The threat to innocent civilians, human life and public safety are too great.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 I belive you and me just agree in one thing: terrorism is bad. How we look at this problem is what makes us discuss. You belive terrorist shouldnt have right at all. I belive they should. Im not going to change your mind and u wont chance mine.

If im not wrong all that started because u criticise on AI because they dont post videos about islamic terrorism. I think at the end of the days, we should value the work they are doing.For many ppl that has been arrested in their countries

[Nuncaperdi]

@Nuncaperdi when they were fighting for the freedom. AI is not an organization that just pretend make look bad America. They fight for the right that all human has, no matter religion culture or ethic. And as u see some ppl belive that america is violating them with Guantanamo and all this secret bases. You look at it from a different point of view) which is completly valid. U might not agree with AI in this point, but u have to agree that the work they are doing in so many countries for people

[Nuncaperdi]

@Nuncaperdi that without them would be dead now. Its important to support AI because they fight for woman sentenced to die by stone.

U cant deny this amazing job.

I really appreciatte the fact that we could have this argument without beeing disrespectful . Thats how the world should work. Even if we think different we should able to talk! And sorry for my english im trying to improve :)

[joba606]

@Nuncaperdi

I can tell you are a very decent person, don't worry, your English is improving.

And I understand what Amnesty International is trying to do.

My problem with AI, besides its refusal to condemn the teachings of Islamic supremacism, is that the only nation that AI condemns BY NAME is the United States.

No mention of abuse of prisoners in Iran, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Myanmar, China, Egypt...

Only America.

This is completely unfair.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 The campaign they did against China was really sever also. They condemned by name China and Iran (as far as I knw). If u check AI web page u can find a section where u can write the name of a country and its written the situation of human rights/woman etc. They also have a project called "emegrcency situation" (im not sure if in english it has the same name). They send u really offten with a history and ask u to send a complain letter to the right offices.Signatures might save lives.

[joba606]

@Nuncaperdi

Has AI made any VIDEOS about China or Iran?

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 Type on youtube Amnsity International China or Amnisty International Iran.

You get videos there. I tried to paste the link...but it didnt work sorry!

[joba606]

@Nuncaperdi

That is why PROFESSIONAL interrogators, who get lied to all the time and know the difference, also have to independently prove that the intelligence is verifiable and actionable.

Suppose a man walked into a police station somewhere in Spain and said that he murdered 'someone', but the police could never find a body or a witness?

His testimony, therefore, is not good enough. The police STILL have to PROVE that what he's saying is true.

The same goes with the terrorists.

[Nuncaperdi]

@joba606 and no im not a terrorist

[XtraaZAB]

@Nuncaperdi

U r right the guntanamo is shit and destroys the freedom of the USA! The workers and the owners of this prison are terrorists!