Steven Pinker on How Violence is Actually in Decline in the Long Term

[SpellboundSolution]

Talking about "the rise from savagery and barbarism" is hardly politically correct, is it? I dare anyone to go out and say that North America is better now that it is civilized than when it was populated by savages. Go on. I dare you.

[astroboomboy]

@lolarathful Yeah I know!

[astroboomboy]

@lolarathful I think somebody should beat you instead...

[HIM0G]

That tie is awesome.

[CambridgeHeights]

ahh I love seeing ultra-liberals have their beliefs shattered by a brilliant academician.

[astroboomboy]

@CambridgeHeights Eh? Ultra-liberals (at least if you are referring to those within academic circles) share the assumption that violence is declining. The findings that point to this is mostly by anthropologists. The ones that constantly go on about violence in our society, and how we're all evil and sinners unless we have the shackles of religion over us are the conservatives.

[monsta123x]

i also read an article about mideval torture technique it had pictures of all the various intruments and i must say that it was the most horrible thing i had ever seen. Although i never got nightmares but nevertheless some of the devices were just mad.

[theinquisitor]

@monsta123x, indeed and I think that's one of the main reasons that it's essential to keep the light of reason and civilisation alive, lest humanity regress back to our savage ways.

[moomin468]

for the stupid crimes that led to violence like burning witches we simply realised that witches don't exist so our knowledge meant that we didn't punish victimless crimes. Democracy made governance less authoritative so authority is cautious about using violence because of the power of the people. As for murder you just need to watch CSI to realise you are gonna get caught! Murderers don't want to be caught so they murder less. Only the idiots unaware of consequences murder.

[STEPHENWRAYSFORD33]

interesting research. Thanks for uploading.

[realmadridvideos]

LOL ... did he say homicide has fallen between 10 to 50 percent since middle ages ?? Haha I want to know which barbaric places have only fallen 10% thats a terrrible statistic really :)

[dollaresque]

@realmadridvideos Pinker said by a factor of 10 to 15 I believe, which means 10 or 15 TIMES less, not just percent.

[my0wan]

@realmadridvideos He said factor of 10 to 50, not 10 to 50 percent. Huge difference. Also check the DOJ gov site. Crime has gone down massively in my life alone, and just the last 10 years is a big drop.

[realmadridvideos]

@my0wan Hi, I do have an issue with the way statistics can be used, the way they are gathered and the way they are interpreted. In other words the statistics that he is using pre 100 years I believe are completely invalid because they are not the gathered in the same way as they are today. I tried to look up definition of Factor and found nothing. If he is using stats why did he not use Percentages ?

[MetalSwitch95]

@realmadridvideos He said by a factor of 10 to 50. As in they're between a tenth to a fiftieth.

[dischler]

@realmadridvideos by a FACTOR of 10 to 50 . Not 10 to 50 PERCENT.

[TheLamelyNamed]

Because nobody gives a shit about anyone at the time, no police, no proper judicial system, no mass media to show you hollywood film about heroism and empathy

Its a norm of life for the people at the time do just do whatever they want without consequences.

People got fed up of the chaos and suffering, so they started advancing themselves socially and morally to prevent these self destructive detrimental actions from prevailing. Hence, progressing the species as a whole.

Which is a good thing.

[monsieurhassan]

This is a very believable thing, . . . of course violence is in decline . .. evolution is taking humanity towards improvement in general . .. now, its not just biological evolution, coz that takes a lot of time, but rather cultural evolution . .. so as we pass through waves of violence, eventually there will be complete world peace

[nissaki63]

Talks a good Utopia. Should try my local town on a Saturday night.

[LITTLER0CKAR]

wow, you completely missed his point, didn't you? go back and listen to his quantitative examples.

[HumanStrategy]

Pinker is good.

[snydfd83]

Societies have become more civilized and violence is less encouraged today than it used to be, but it was also a lot easier to get away with murder then.

[VariedInterest]

There's no substantial connection between the ability to get away with a murder and the tendency to commit it. Most peole who commit murder think they can get away with it, or else they are specifically not concerned with it at the time for whatever reason. Pinker and others always use terms like "then", or "in those days", which is uselessly vague. It's understandable from some nitwit on youtube just passing time, but from a respected academic like Pinker it's troubling.

[snydfd83]

Getting away with murder may not have prevented it directly, but it certainty gave those with a tendency to murder more opportunities if not caught. Prisons are a form of social engineering in a sense that those who commit murder are removed from society. Maybe a higher capture rate in recent times has become effective in lowering certain genetic factors from the population that predispose people to violent behavior, although there are still environmental factors to consider.

[snydfd83]

I'm really just speculating and posting my thoughts on the subject here, I'd be interested in actual research though and not just an exchange of ideas. There are probably so many factors to take into account that nobody really knows for sure why violent crimes have declined.

[VariedInterest]

Well the main point is, I don't think they really have. We have just shifted our terms of them. We have a different framework of police or law enforcement than we had in say, 1750. Now we don't define a lot of what police do as "violent crime", but rather as "crime abating measures". We have institutionalized a lot of things like slavery and war and violence, and just stopped calling them what they are.

And you're right, this is very complicated and I respect your reasonable approach.

[theinquisitor]

"Pinker and others always use terms like "then", or "in those days", which is uselessly vague"

Well he alludes to actual data such as the homicide rates kept by medieval societies and how they are actually lower in modern society than they were then. And the qualitative changes are quite evident. The death penalty for criticising rulers for example, is completely gone is western societies. Given the choice, would you really choose to live in a medieval society rather than a modern one?

[snydfd83]

He trusts human nature too well. I think advancements in forensics, security and communication have deterred crime. Everybody has a cell phone nowadays, most with cameras, and surveillance is becoming more common, hopefully Big Brother wont get too out of hand. Technology can be used for good and evil purposes. Criminals have been forced to become more sophisticated in their techniques and now your identity can be stolen without your knowledge in the comfort of their own home.

[VariedInterest]

I don't think his ideas are very complete, and mostly I just disagree with him based on my own common sense and reasoning based on what I have studied. I am getting into his Blank Slate book now and have so far found it rather tedious and unconvincing, but I will as always give it the benefit of the doubt, even though my BS detector keeps tripping.

[ocelot814]

This is complete bullshit. Relatively nothing has change. Why crucify someone when you get blown them away atom by atom. As for slavery answer this question do you work because you want to or because you have to?

[Loserido]

You don't crucify for the same reason you nuke people. The two are completely different.

I work because I want to maintain my current standard of living, I could work less and therefore keep less, or I could do the opposite, I could work more and keep more.

I can also choose between many different kinds of work, not a too wide array obviously, but my hands aren't completely tied.

In slavery, they are completely tied.

[ocelot814]

"You don't crucify for the same reason you nuke people. The two are completely different."

Objectively it's terminating life. Subjectively they both have a goal influenced by mysticism. One based on god the other based on eugenics. Objectively they have the same goal and the numbers show it millions of lives lost.

"I work because I want to maintain my current standard of living"

And slaves don't do this?

[thefakeyeti]

I believe that eventually jobs will be obsolete...

Technology will get to the point where we would no longer work..

However, Working for 8 hours a day for 9.50 a hour, in a air conditioned room though it is pretty much "forced".. is helluva lot better then working sun up to sun down, with a whip hitting my naked back..

[godlessKnowledge]

You should look up the Venus Project.

[thefakeyeti]

I briefly forgot what it was called..

But that is what originally made me drop my jaw and think "Whoa that makes sense"

I am not a socialistat at least not with the current monetary system, take away someone elses MONEY in order to give to someone that is less fortunate, however, after reading\the venus project, it is becoming clear, that capitilsm and the concept of money, will become obsolete.

[godlessKnowledge]

Yeah, Jacque Fresco's quite a man considering he's in his nineties.

[DeadlyMACD]

A world where all human intellectual activity is contributed to scientific research and technical development, and and all manual, productive labor is automated.

[VariedInterest]

The United States still has the death penalty, and even still uses electrocution. People still hold cock fights and dog fights and bull fights, and torture cats for amusement. Slavery still exists, and not just Western wage slavery which is bad enough. Just because the slavery is more remote and farther away, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And we live in a state of perpetual war, so that's a flatly ridiculous claim.

Everything he said is either false or at least misleading.

[ocelot814]

Couldn't agree more. It's relative.  We THINK it's different because of rhetoric justifying these brutalities. Bombing muslim children in the USA is called liberating. Torture is called prison or rehabilitation center or correctional facility etc..

[theinquisitor]

"Slavery still exists, and not just Western wage slavery which is bad enough"

I have to object to comparing slavery as it was practised in centuries past to "wage slavery". You cannot legally be beaten, raped and whipped by your "wage slavers". The comparison is an insult to the suffering of actual slaves.

"Just because the slavery is more remote and farther away, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist"

The fact that it occurs in socities less educated and prosperous than ours supports his claim.

[VariedInterest]

No, because his position is that some people are inherently better than others, yet environment continues to dictate the vast majority of behaviour.

Of course, there is no real difference between foreign labour exploitation of today and domestic labour exploitation of the 1700s, aside from the fact that we are so deeply propagandized and indoctrinated that we do not any longer know that we are directly contributing to it. And I wasn't equating chattel slavery to wage slavery.

[theinquisitor]

"his position is that some people are inherently better than others"

What gave you that impression? It seems to me that he's suggesting that the difference is in education and culture, not some inherent quality.

Contrast the foreign labour exploitation with the way western countries used to treat less developed societies in the past. He's not saying there aren't problems, he's just saying it was even worse. The very fact that we are outraged about these things is a sign of moral progress.

[VariedInterest]

Where is the outrage? The fact that you and Steven Pinker are so indifferent to it that you can act like it doesn't exist is a pretty alarming refutation. I don't see the outrage, I see apathy, and I am ultimately an optimist with regards to humanity. If there were real outrage, these systems would quickly be destroyed, but there is only moral posing, which is why these things on a large scale aren't being abated. With the amount of information we have access to, it shameful how poorly we act.

[DeadlyMACD]

I think you're missing the point.  The question posed to Steven Pinker was "what are you optimistic about." His answer is that violence is declining. There was absolutely no indifference, or apathy in his answer. You're assuming a lot more than was provided by the question and the answer.

[VariedInterest]

If it wasn't worth saying, he shouldn't have say it, obviously just to seem contrary on his part.

[theinquisitor]

The point I think is not that our society is composed of moral paragons, but simply that things were worse in the past.

It's not like there aren't activist groups trying to make a positive difference in many different areas. Even armchair disdain for violence and torture is progress from support and celebration of it. Again, the very fact that you and I find it terrible that more is not being done, is progress from the perception that these things are not objectionable at all.

[DeadlyMACD]

You'd have to do an extensive study of the rates of violent deaths per population to determine if it is declining in the long run. I don't know how extensively Dr. Pinker has studied this issue? If the quantity of violent deaths has gone up why have certain types of killing become less acceptable? Have we become more efficient at killing and no longer accept less developed methods? Hopefully Dr. Pinker is correct, and we not only have improved methods, but also less violence.

[opium25]

yes i would take that stance on it, we no longe need to kill people in such crude ways when all we have to do is shoot them

[DeadlyMACD]

Well, that is the point Dr. pinker is making. Except he also believes the quantity of violence is declining as the methods of killing are becoming less crude, and more efficient.

[SolMaster]

Another thing you might want to add in there is the improvement of forensic techniques. People know these days that if they kill someone and they do it in an "inefficient" way, they are more likely to be found. Crude criminals are much easier to catch.

[thefakeyeti]

Pointing out the UNDER ground market isn't prooving your point. The vast amount of people frown upon the idea of cock fights, and torturing cats

do we throw the condemed in coliseums and cheer by the thousands as they hack each other? NO.. You just might have a point, if that was americans favorite pass time, instead of watching one guy try to tacke another guy as he tries to cross a line.

[VariedInterest]

It occurs to me that Pinker has a sort of Nietzsche appeal. I am not meaning to slight anybody, but I have never heard a proponent of Steven Pinker show any sign of real critical thought, just as with Nietzsche. It's not a personal insult, just an observation that people in both camps have very undeveloped intellects. They are also generally young and have no exposure to any serious scientific study or philosophy. I am just suggesting that you avoid holding onto your current, poor assumptions.

[theinquisitor]

VI, I suspect that if there's any truth in that, it's merely due to the fact that most people in general have undeveloped intellects, and so if you scrutinise any group closely from an opposing perspective, you're likely to find that.

However, I could be wrong, and I haven't seen the science behind Pinker's statements. I'm open to any evidence or arguments you can put forth to suggest that violence has not declined as he suggests. I haven't found them convincing so far, but you may surprise me.

[DeadlyMACD]

Instead of dismissing the value of Pinkers work, which is what you do when you say it lacks critical thought, is juvenile, and undeveloped you should present ideas that counter his arguments.

[thefakeyeti]

And instead of attacking my points, you did a "polite" ad hominum...

I feel that you have no critical thought either..

You point out the bad and at the MINORITY of people and say"see.. we as a human race aren't any better!'

YES there are dog fights, however they aren't glorified by the MAJORITY of people, like they would've been in the past..

NOWHERE did ANYONE claim that violence is GONE, just todays millinum is better than last millinum

[roidroid]

Rates of various crimes tend to follow the gradual aging of population booms.

For example. When the baby boomers were teenagers and young adults - there was a statistical increase in violent crimes, as this is the kindof crimes that people of this age are more likely to commit.

Then when the baby boomers started to get older - there has been a decrease in Violent crime, and an increase in Fraud crimes. Fraud is a more common crime perpetrated by older people.

[magicbibledotcom]

I think it's pretty obvious violence has gone down when you actually think about it historically as he says.

I think this is partly counter-intuitive due to the fact that news outlets and media coverage have increased at a ginormous rate.

I mean even... 20 years ago, people weren't checking Google News or blogs or probably having things reported in such detailed and manic fashion.

The fact that we see more, hear more and know more probably makes us think that more violence is occurring.

[roidroid]

Yep.

For those curious about the phenomenon, check out the Wikipedia articles on

"Deviancy amplification spiral" and "Mean World Syndrome", and go from there.

[AnonOrange]

To be more specific about human traficking and false imprisonment, I understand the total count is higher, but the percentage lower.

Google Scientology RPF for more info on Scientology labor camps in the US and the rest of the world. We have filed complaints with govt agencies, Amnesty int., Polaris Project, and local govts. We hold regular protests (at least on a monthly basis)

Also google Anonymous Scientology.

[AnonOrange]

Steven, you are quite wrong about this. There is more human traffiking and false imprisonment now then there ever has been in the past.

Please start reading about what's going on in the various "Rehabilitabion Project Force" camps that Scientology runs. There are some in Hemet, California, Los Angeles, Copenhagen and Saint-Hill in England.

People cannot escape from these camps. They are forced to work 100 hour weeks, are put on a rice and beans diet, instulted and often hit.

[theinquisitor]

"There is more human traffiking and false imprisonment now then there ever has been in the past"

Do you have data to back that up? Approximately how many people are in these camps in total? What percentage of the world's population is in these camps? Have you seen Pinker's data on the rates of violence, torture and slavery? Such information would be required to make any comparison. Bear in mind that he said the rate is not zero, just that it was even worse centuries ago.

[roidroid]

the raw numbers of people that would be contained in Scientology camps, pales to insignificance compared to historical times when owning slaves was common.

[vidstrika22]

....100 years ago was so worse 1000 years ago.... 10000 years much much worse and now is alot worse then it will be in the future.....

[andrewtheman19]

I agree with him...as far as America and Europe go. I don't know about North Korea, the Middle East, Africa...etc.

[Jacnas]

Also crime rates are dropping in part because of the aging of society. Older people are far less violent than young ones probably because of lower testosterone levels.

[fatmanprime]

There are also much more young people these days, though.

Old people are less violent, I suspect, because they are not physically fit enough to be.

[LeafHuntress]

No, there are less young people in any western society, actually it's one of the measurements. More youth means less developed country. Not because kids are scary, but because the more educated people become, the more they hold off on spawning babies. So people get children at a higher age.

Also when the healthsystem is better, people get older.

This doesn't bode well for the US where 1 in 3 moms is a teenager.

Also old = less pesky hormones + more life exp. means less violence, not fitness

[fatmanprime]

Actually you are right, there are percentually less young people. There are more young people absolutely, but that wouldn't affect the crime rates.

[Jacnas]

I agree with Pinker but when shit hits the fan, luxuries like personal liberty and compassion are the first to go. We could lose all of this moral progress that has been going on for 1000s of yrs in just one generation.

[Blackliam]

Pinker's a good guy

We're lucky as hell to be where we are

[AtSwimTwoBricks]

It seems I had wrongly assumed that the crime rate might be higher now.

I thought this way because I imagined that the middle ages largely featured very small farming villages, in which everyone knew everyone else. I imagined that this network of deep knowledge everyone has about everyone else would act like a very effective policing system.

In comparison, we have largely anonymous cities today. And the effect anonymity has on people is clearly evidenced through the internet...

[LeafHuntress]

Murder is actually one of those crimes which you have more to fear from those you know then from complete strangers. ;-)

[killerbandit]

People who do not understand that violence is in the decline do not have an even most basic understanding of the scope of history.

"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice..."  -MLK Jr.

[CRAPCANNONS]

Just as long as aggression is preserved.