"The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world" (3 of 13)

[AlistairDempsey]

I'm a Christian and I believe the Catholic Church is about Power. For centuries this power has been abused and I believe it is not a force for good. I don't know much about the "laws" the Pope makes. But for the Pope to claim to be infallible is stupid. The Pope is a sinner and fallible man, who does not deserve to be called the Vicar of Christ on Earth - there's no such thing.

[ChairmanDrek757]

lol I looked up Cardinal Law and found a video by romereports about him turning 80. It was funny how it was the only video they disabled comments for. They know. It's sick.

[1929spectre]

,that run "charitable" institutions to gain tax relief on there huge financial holdings worldwide be tax exempt ? the threat is we lose our tax exemption our charities close, depriving the poor and needy of help ? the children that were abused in catholic institutions were the poor and needy ? but of course the catholic and protestant churches have powerful friends who can help define "dangerous " cults ? in many cases these dangerous cults just taught doctrines that the churches disagreed with

[londonj2007]

No, tommo, you're not the only one. There are at least two of us.

[CrysFelicies]

Anyone know where I can get the entire video? I really want to own it. Christopher Hitchens arguments are hard to argue with.

[aleshamahon]

@CrysFelicies it says under the video

[ludvan67]

@CrysFelicies If you have not already found the complete version it's here on Youtube @ /watch?v=-Z5Yk8uMdJ8. Install Real player then you can download it, save it to your HD or burn it to a DVD.

[SheedaWood]

humi am really bored anyone wanna play and have fun

[tommo1313]

am i the only one who laughs at the notoin that the catholic church is a force for good

[faithisfiction]

Nail on the head after nail on the head...

[faithisfiction]

....nail on the head after nail on the head.

Heralding in a time when we can look forward to a time when we can drop Christianity on the scrap heap of bronze age myth.

[highwind8124]

I have never seen Hitchens' hands shake. I know how painful it can be to give a nervous speech. Hitchens has been brazen so often, but at this moment, he's scared. The sweating isn't the alcohol this time. He's giving a heart felt speech on the biggest religious sect in the world which is incredibly powerful. He knows the level of charity, and he is nervous. I would be too, but every word he says is right, and those two characters looking on should be ashamed.

[fjoo]

@highwind8124 Sorry,I know it's a year since you wrote this,but my neurosis forced me to comment.I think you are mistaken to think he shakes at the thought of the powerful church. If there is one thing he is not afraid of, it's them.

If he is shaking for any reason at all, it's only because he hasn't had a drink, as it's a huge audience with a large tv-audience and he really want's to perform to perfection. He fears a performance mistake 10x more than the silly cult he is arguing against.

[celpabedn]

@fjoo I second your argument!

[janeyanna]

Hitchens rocks! And Pope Ratzinger... I'm seriously embarrassed to even belong to the same species as he. This enabler of child f*ckers, this hate spitting, sickness bringing b*stard piece of sh*t. I hope I never meet him in person, I doubt I could restrain myself.

[Elphir]

I admit that Christopher Hitchens is an incredibly intelligent man, he is immensely bright and knows a lot. However, I have the feeling that he is a really nasty person, with little sense of humour, which is limited mostly to cynicism, that can totally destroy a human being. I don't think that such a characteristic is very good to have, and is very destructive.

The problem is with people like him (Geert Wilders, f. ex) is that they don't come up with solutions; they just criticise.

[stojadinovicp]

Riddle me this... The Catholics believe that the more you suffer in this life the better it will be for you in heaven, right? Well then WHY do they insist on helping the poor and those that suffer??? Are they trying to ensure that they do not get the credits for heaven? Is it limited seating up there or something? Kind of hypochritical, no?

[TycheTheLlama]

Because regardless of their idiotic beliefs, evolution has granted them morality.

[stojadinovicp]

Did it reaaally? :)

And thus, it is moral to lie to the children and teach them false stupid stories? Make them ignorant all their lives?

Or to mentally torture them with threats of hell and eternal fire if they touch themselves and so on?

Not to mention the sexual abuse which has to come after so long an abstinence...

[robhiengler]

TycheTheLlama is perhaps trying to say (aside from the mentally ill) most of us have an innate morality derived from human empathy. It is religion that strips, externalises and attributes this to some divine source. Hence DESPITE their idiotic beliefs some of them still have human morality. Mother Teresa however made sure they suffered.

Although I have to agree with you that acts of religious kindness is entirely based on self-love and fear of hell rather than true altruism.

[stojadinovicp]

@robhiengler: no objections to your comment, i just wanted to emphasize that I am fully aware that there are MANY religious people and priests who are (despite their delusions) quite moral, wonderful people! I don't want to me misunderstood that *ALL* religious people are the same... that kind of generalizing and prejudice is reserved for the fanatics ;)

[Tybourne1991]

Martin Luther King said: "unearned suffering is redemptive". Catholics believe something similar. The Church does more than any other institution in the world to alleviate suffering, since she loves the human person and loves life. At the same time, there will always be suffering. What are we to make of this remaining suffering? For Catholics, it can become a share in the suffering of Christ, which is in itself redemptive. What sense do you make of suffering that cannot be allayed?

[stojadinovicp]

@Tybourne1991: Why does it need to make sense? What is this uncontrollable need to make everything reasonable or to force everything to be part of some cause? There is not overall cause, there is no sense in suffering and most importantly NO, the Church does NOT more than any other institution, in fact it does more to CREATE suffering by lying and forcing unmoral rules upon the non-educated!

[Tybourne1991]

@stojadinovicp: Do you not try to make sense of your existence? I would have thought that was a universal human need. As Socrates said, the unexamined life is not worth living.

Since everything has a cause, why should there not be a cause of every thing?

The Catholic Church's charitable institutions include:

Primary and secondary schools 125,016

Hospitals 5,853

Orphanages 8,695

Homes for the elderly and handicapped 13,933

These do more than any other similar provider in the world.

[stojadinovicp]

And yet again you start off with a fallacy, it is simply not true that everything has a cause! This is yet another false assumption that is taken for granted. I examine my life constantly, that does NOT mean it has a divine purpose or a cause! And as I recall, the cunt that was called Mother Theresa also had "homes" to "help" those that suffered... Do not get me started...

[Tybourne1991]

Simply stating that an argument is a fallacy doesn't make it one. You would have to point out how it is erroneous, surely?

So, you don't believe that everything has a cause. Do good outcomes have a cause? If not, you can have little, if anything, to say on the motion which could be recast as: "The CC *causes* good outcomes in the world".

Flinging insults at a near-universally revered Nobel Peace Prize winner does you and your case no credit, I'm afraid. Ad hominen attacks really are fallacies.

[philster61]

@Tybourne1991 Shall we quote some better figures? Annual income of the Vatican. Approx 175 million. This does not include the net worth of the Vatican art treasures which is very substantial. Nor does it include the value of the 5000 apartments it owns which bring in approx 4 million annually.

Its estimated the Vatican Bank is the 8th largest in the world. Remember the Vatican does not pay any tax and is its own state of prime real estate in Rome.

[philster61]

@Tybourne1991 . To estimate the annual income of what the Vatican makes from its worldwide parishes would be nearly impossible. But it would run into the billions.Most of it after running costs, expenses etc dos go back to he Vatican. What the Vatican would pay out towards those hospitals, schools and orphanges you mentioned would be a mere pittance to what it actually makes.

[trep83]

Do you see him driving around in lamborghinis? No, do you see him living in pure luxury? Would you take on his life for the riches he has?  No, so why are you talking crap about him? You yourself would squander all the money and do everything sinful known to man

[philster61]

@trep83" Do you see him driving around in lamborghinis?" He is an 80+ year German. A Lamborghini would be unrealistic. However he does have top of the line Mercedes that chauffeur him everywhere.

"do you see him living in pure luxury?"

You have obviously never been to the Vatican.

"Would you take on his life for the riches he has? " Bring the Pope means you can have anything you want. your immune to prosecution. You are the King of a state. You want for nothing. Who wouldnt want that life?

[philster61]

@trep83" so why are you talking crap about him? "

Everything I mention is based on absolute fact. Since when had the truth been crap?

"You yourself would squander all the money and do everything sinful known to man"

So you mean like holding masses and try to screw even more people for their money during collection?

Or perhaps cover up the sins of the clergy by telling the faithful how wretched and sinful THEY are? Nothing wrong with sin, Its all a matter of perspective as to what IS sin.

[nilbud]

Would that be covered by being fucked by a priest as a child?

[ScienceRulesWithFact]

Don't make fun of what happpend , my friend! These pdophile pritestst were after anything with a cock that coud rise beyond it's nomal appearacne. These people were FUCK SICK!!!!!!!!!!! Simeple as that!

[nilbud]

Don't tell me what to do, pal.

[nilbud]

Shut it clown.

[Tybourne1991]

The Catholic Church is utterly opposed to child abuse. In 2002 Pope John Paul II denounced this "appalling sin" crime, telling American bishops that there is no place in the priesthood and religious life "for those who would harm the young."

[nilbud]

It must be amazing to you that at the same time ratzinger was colluding in the suppression of child molestation charges from around the globe. How do you reconcile those facts?

The child molesters were at least ordinary working pedophiles complete with whatever brain damage it requires to do that vile stuff. It's the ones who kept silent, the ones who conspired to relocate and conceal those sick fuckers are the real problem. The numbers are huge, the verdict clear.

[Tybourne1991]

I'm not going to argue with you about numbers. One would have been far too many. Kindly supply evidence that Cardinal Ratzinger colluded with the suppression of child molestation charges. Thanks.

[nilbud]

Yeah why don't you look up his duties also you may consult the recent tribunal published in Ireland. All testimony was to be gathered everyone sworn to secrecy and the documents to be sent to Rome. That was SOP. You are delusional if you think you can wriggle off the hook on this one.

[Tybourne1991]

@nilbud You have made an unsubstantiated allegation about Pope Benedict. I have asked you to supply evidence to support it. Have you found any yet?

[nilbud]

No I have made a substantial allegation against that scumbag based entirely on documented fact and you, the sick fucking dupe that you are, have attempted to pretend it doesn't exist. You lame bastard protecting child molesters and believing in fairy tales. Go do your own research you degenerate pervert.

[Tybourne1991]

@nilbud If I have stated that no Catholic clergy have abused children, please point out where I have done so. These crimes have been committed and those guilty will have to face justice. If I have not made any such pretence, why do you insult me?

[philster61]

@Tybourne1991

I suggest you look for "Sacramentorum sanctitatis tutela,"

Or "Criminalis Iglesia" for your answer.He was behind the Papal edict which directs ALL documents regarding sex abuse allegations be sent to the Vatican. I believe the year is 2001 he issued that edict.

[Tybourne1991]

@philster61 Thanks for your reasoned arguments. Google gives me no results for "Criminalis Iglesia". The Apostolic Letter "Sacramentorum sanctitatis tutela" altered the Church's canon law so that any cases in which a priest sexually abused a minor would be dealt with directly by Rome. This step was taken because some U.S. bishops had not taken the necessary action. This was a move to strengthen and centralize the protection of children to prevent criminal clergy from harming again.

[philster61]

@Tybourne1991. I will recheck my Latin and to to find the correct spelling for the document I was referring to. There does exist an edict drawn up by the current Pope before he became pope. Since my knowledge of Latin is not so good its important to use the correct spelling and I am using memory for this. The Sacramentorum sanctitatis tutela places all documents pertaining to abuse cases directly in the hands of the Vatican. Ask yourself? How would that look to the general public?

[philster61]

@Tybourne1991 And I look forward to reasoned debates with you Tybourne. I get rather tired of Ad Hominem attacks from people who cant make an intelligent debate. Cheers.

[Tybourne1991]

@philster61 "Sacramentorum sanctitatis tutela places all documents pertaining to abuse cases directly in the hands of the Vatican. Ask yourself? How would that look to the general public?"

But this is an internal document to strengthen the Church's capacity adequately to protect children. It is not about PR. The Church contains people who do evil deeds. She must therefore have means for dealing with them. If the members live Her life they will be transformed in goodness.

[philster61]

@Tybourne1991 Hi Typhon. Apologies for the length between posts. I was mistaken about the title of the document in question l i believe it is " Criminalis Ecclesiates." Its in latin not spanish. I will endeavor to post a link for you. It is in Latin and English.

ALthough I think maybe in lieu of todays revelations, it might not be necessary to.

[Tybourne1991]

@philster61 No problem- I've searched Google/ the Vatican website. No results for Criminalis Ecclesiastes or variant spellings. By todays revelations, I take it you mean Pope Benedicts categorical denouncement of abusive priests and bishops who covered up their actions? Yes, some Irish bishops have sought to conceal abuse. They will have to face justice. This Popes actions on abuse have toughened the system, removing the 1.5-5% of paedophile priests from bishops who were covering up.

[goldman77700]

@Tybourne1991 Do you honestly believe simply being removed from their status as priest or bishop is an adequate enough punishment for their crimes? If they've done it for decades they will find a way with or without being affiliated to a religious organization. This is their addiction, this is just removing one way to get their "high". You can remove them and strip them of everything they have but has to be a change in the inside or it never ends.

[Tybourne1991]

@goldman77700 Yes, I agree, stripping abusive clergy of their collars is not enough on its own. They should also be prosecuted, and many have been. However, we should always bear in mind the human capacity for change.

[goldman77700]

@Tybourne1991 We should also bear in mind just how many they abused. The ones that are caught always seem to abuse so many but never just a few. Goes to show how excessive in they're own depravitiy they were. A life time of prosecution would be a fitting punishment for them, a mandatory abstinence away of their "little children", regardless of a genuine apology. But some don't even deserve that. Change may happen but the damage is done. It's up to the Church to take responsibility. Peace.

[Tybourne1991]

@goldman77700 Well, we don't know how many have been abused. We should also keep that in mind. One would be too many. I'm keen to know- if the Church took responsibility in a way that satisfied you, how would that look?

[goldman77700]

@Tybourne1991 Exactly one is too many. And one shouldn't be tolerated at all. Personally I think its more a matter if the victims are satisfied more than myself or any other bystander. And even if they did for a few individuals, then that's great but they still has hundreds of others to deal with, not to mention the thousands of victims. Let's wait to see if they truly practice what they preach, and make a commitment to change. Nice talking to you. Peace.