If I can comment here on Duration 7 Time passage in D&D in my world: Three Months Real Time= 1 Year game time. 1 YR Real Time=4 YRs Game Time. Spell Duration is marked by myself as GM & Kept By Me..Often circumstances cause a spell not to work-max duration. Players shouldn't know why this as they wouldn't in real life, unless SpellCaster can figure out. I also have players roll D20 "25" X before session begins for mysterious Pre-rolled saves. I don't always want players to know whats up =D
@KorumEmrys The way I've decided to do it is level 1-5 are apprentice levels. So duration is 1 round per level up until there for spells, after that duration is scene. For other powers, it is variable.
Letting players not know what's up is certainly good.
Early on, the duration of spells matters a great deal against challenges, especially if they only last some odd rounds. However, when PCs have the capacity to have it be 10 rounds or more, then keeping track of when they end isn't too much a bother.
Besides, if you're having fight after fight which requires you to properly note the durations, you're obviously doing it wrong in my book. Too many fights is ever a drain, as I continue to learn in my playing. ;)
@JoeSomebody2 Yes, you are right, you shouldn't have loads of combat in a campaign. While if you run the game for say a year, it would be fine to have 1 or 2 sessions that were full of combat must games shouldn't have any combat in them at all. I think it matters a little, which is why I say 1, then 2 rounds, then a scene. I might even go 1,2,3, then scene.
I can certainly understand why you'd like to go this way with it, seems more believable & realistic to me. I might have to use this idea the next time I run a D&D game.
Re: messing up buffs. Not surprisingly, I've encountered this problem. In my view, there are three inputs into any resolution: the die roll, the modifiers (skill bonus or whatever, plus circumstantial bonuses or penalties), and the fudge factor. Over the course of a campaign, die rolls average out, so those are actually predictable. The fudge factor is less predictable, but I tend to assume it evens out. If a buff is forgotten, I chalk it up to "the god of luck", and might compensate later.
your solution seems reasonable. But realize that you are going in the direction of metagaming. Spells originally have durations because that's how they were described in the fiction that early gamers were attempting to emulate (Jack Vance's Dying Earth series). If I have a mystical ritual that I know, it shouldn't make a difference how long the fight lasts. It's done when it's done.
@Joshbuckler I wouldn't say it is metagaming. I haven't read dying earth but from what I've seen of it, it doesn't sound like something I'd like to base my magic system around; however, it will be supported with fiction.
@woodwwad maybe metagaming is too gamey of a word. There's something fourth-wall-breaking in your interpretation of powers and abilities lasting "to the end of the scene". I don't hold total immersion to be a sacred cow, so I'd be okay with a mage in a movie saying (cue Monty Python voice) "I shall manifest this power of the arcane mysteries, and it shall last until the director says 'Cut.'"
@Joshbuckler I totally disagree with you about your thought that this would be 4 wall breaking. In fact, I find counting rounds down, that style to be 4 wall breaking. Scene is how most magical abilities in novels, tv shows or movies work. Never heard anyone make that statement in WOD as they use the scene mechanic & it works well.
@woodwwad one of the first things that hung me in WoD ... I thought it was interesting and novel at first, but then frustratingly simple when I got into the games... as I got experienced with it... now I can go either way, but there are times I find making a call for less abstraction necessary... yes even as a player.
... now you have heard that statement in WOD ... XD
I hear ya, brother! Something I've learned about D&D3.X from several long campaigns: no combat (even the massive ones) lasts more than 8 rounds. I know this because I used to track the duration of my Barbarian's "Rage" ability. Not once did my "Rage" end before the combat was over. Because of that, I found the "Extended Range" Feat from one of the splat books to be the biggest waste of a Feat I could imagine and never blighted my character by taking it. We had some nasty combats but none over 8.
@Webhead123 right, so it is a total wast of time to track it. Just fight the combat, then sell the exhaustion afterwards, gives you something else to do then. 8 rounds of combat with say 4-6 players takes a long time.
Haven't had the chance to do any wargaming myself, so I can't say if I like it or not. I'd like to do some, though. If I end up not liking it, I don't have to do it again.
Like gruegirl said, I kind of like the idea that a spell, especially for a low-level character, can wear out before the battle's over. But it does tend to become a moot point at higher levels, so maybe... oh idk.
The idea that a power lasts "for the duration of this fight" seems reasonable in most cases.
@LOXMYTHIC This might seem odd then but I'm huge on making characters mark off arrow and the like. I also enjoy having non-magical armor & weapons break.
I like wargames. But I think of them as board games not rpgs.
Who has two thumbs and made mistakes with durations? This guy!
I find that my players keep track of their durations in my group well enough and I rarely have problems with it. But as a gm I can just fudge it if need be. Better to do that then slow down the scene. ';I would n't be opposed to durations inthe "combat, Hourly, daily or weekly" range. Maybe I will play test that and see how it works out. Might be game breaking.
@masterofflowers Funny enough, I think you are the first person here to admit that, it has to be a universal error. I've caught so many people doing it. I don't think it would be game breaking. I would be most interested to see what your play test reveals. I'll tell you what I've done so far with magic once I get you on the horn.
20 Years now heh..? AWESOME...I just got 36 myself and happy to still be going....Don't know that I've become any better, but more detailed and more restrictive at the same time....My average session time is 9 hours, but I am to old to even try to get together If I can't have at least 6 hours- Thumbs Up on the Anti-Wargame campaign..D&D has been my game now for almost 40 years and hopefully will be for another 40..=) GREAT JOB ON VID!!!!!!!! =)
@KorumEmrys Thank you very much & it is 24 year in the hobby. 9 hours in a good amount of time for a session, I can get with that for sure. I do so dislike short sessions though.
ugh, i hate keeping in track of duration spells, it's ether 1minute per lvl, 1 hour per lvl, etc..., luckily i have plenty of d20's so that i as well as my players can keep in track of them all...sigh.
Interestingly enough (and however one regards the system) 4e actually eliminated durations completely (effects now last only throughout a single fight and/or possibly a day).
At the top of the round, I make all spell casters remind people of their bonuses from buffs. Then I go into initiative. I only keep track of NPC spell durations. If the player forgets to remind the group, that's the group's problem. I force them to be accountable for their own buffs. Partially to keep my sanity, but also it makes the players keep track of their bonuses to rolls. I've noticed this really helps prevent lone-wolves as it reinforces the party to work together.
I think your suggestion seems pretty good, although I would say that round-by-round duration has never particularly bothered me (piece of paper, tick off rounds until spell ends). Tracking minutes is silly, because then you've got to track movement rates, and time pauses etc. in case combat starts again before the spell runs out.
I've never been a wargame player, but remember that D&D did evolve from wargames, so that will leave its mark.
I confess this comes from little to no knowledge of real summoning magic as I find the idea extremely arrogant dangerous and stupid. But I love it in games and stories.
On summoning: well one of the major cornerstone of it in my mind is the risk, the ability of the thing to break out or subvert the spell. Also, due to this risk, the pain-staking nature of getting it all right. I would say, make people research the fuck out of it, maybe have to go up a "ladder" of different entities, coercing one into giving the key to the next ritual. I know this is all fluff and I'm sure you know it all but shrug. I too would love to see it implemented. Love to play J Curwen.
@alokov You are totally on the 100% on it here. This is sadly impossible with the D&D rules which is the problem. I know a lot about real world occult & summoning, so I have much to draw upon. True names, artistic sigils, binding spirits to items, ect. The big problem is making summoning quick enough to have some use in combat without whoring the flavor. Fluff is what is important & mech should just be built to support it. You are right, it should be amazingly dangerous.
I can totally get on board with not tracking so much you burn-out... but I can't recall any time when this has been an issue, there are so many tricks for tracking time... and with it durations and conditions, this has never been a noticed focus adding weight to my mind.
As far as forgetting items, that applies to everything that needs tracking... I've seen everything from important scheduled events and NPC aspects, to conditions(spells/items/etc...) and regeneration, none more than another.
Day, hour, scene, next-time-you-take-a-dump, these are all the best ways to handle durations of spells. However, I add another: Encounter.
No fights really last THAT long, in-game time. So a Bless spell being "encounter" just makes sense. It also allows that goblin skulking on the sidelines to wait till after the battle, then sneak in with a shank when the Bless spell is gone!
PS: Surprise! Ander likes morningtstars! A weapon named after the devil himself!
Do you allow conditions to be removed during combat? What if the paralyze spell is only meant to hold a person frozen for a moment & not the entire combat? Either the spell cease to work OR you just gave that spell a lot more power.
During an assault on a dungeon or castle, you COULD have 4 or 6 or 8 encounters within a single 'day'. Does duration hold from encounter to encounter or do you use a new power for each encounter? Either way, that slants the power gradient.
@tetsubo57 Well, with Hold Person you get to try to get out of it every round & I don't find the way it is set up a distraction. So I wouldn't change the breaking out of it at all. If the spell is only meant to work for 1 or 2 rounds though, it'll just work for 1 or 2 rounds. I keep that part of duration. It would depend on the way the encounters went down. Think of it like a cut scene in a TV show or movie, that would be the reset.
@tetsubo57 these are some of the first things came to mind also...
year, month, week, day, hour, scene, next-set-event, encounter, 1-5 rounds, immediate action, instant... these are probably the best initial durations to set an effect for as default.... but some conditions will effect duration...
If the magic system is too linearly flat it tends to be a turn off for me... casting times and durations are one of the items that helps magic feel dynamic and part of a living world.
But down the 'scene' road leads to 'encounter powers'. Which I despise. I don't have a problem with daily powers. Or at will powers. But encounter powers are just artificial & weird to me. Though I do see the attraction of scene powers.
I use a simple condition system with miniatures. Face up on it's back, something is wrong. Face down & it's dead. Standing up & it is still in action.
Do you track HP on monsters at all?
I hate morningstars? Untrue! I hate spiked chains. Different beast.
@tetsubo57 Yes, I do track HP on the monsters. I let the players take care of most other things. I have a very physical style of GMing. I get up & move around a lot during scenes, especially combat. We'll go through lots of detailed descriptions that occasionally need some acting out. I thought you said something about morning stars not being weapons in 1 of gents posts.
@woodwwad I am a up-and-mobile type also... in more conservative groups I have incured the "sit down and describe character actions" warning, when just posing... I hate that.
As a GM I have pulled the game so far away from the table-top that it almost becomes LARP... I've played and run at places like the beach, and in the market... having moved to those locations on whim mid-game... starting sessions, and entirely new characters that have no stats yet in the coffee shop is not uncommon either.
I use initiative cards with a post-it stuck to it. When a bless goes off I jot it down and start ticking off the rounds every time the card comes up. Same with conditions
That said, if you can simplify the process, I'm all ears dude.
@vention4wh & I certainly have, glad you are likely that idea. When I heard they were coming out with 4e, I thought they'd create a more streamline more RP focused version of D&D. So I was wrong there . . . but I figured why not give it a try myself?
My DnD GM extended the duration of creature/monster summon spells for double what it says in the book, energy resistance spells and ability modification spells like bull strength which all last a full day now.
@alokov Yeah, it is handled terribly. F- job. I'll have to gut it & redo it. the problem is it has no flavor. Celestial Badger? Really, fucking stupid! With detail Summoning can be amazing, it is a corner stone of "real magic" & I'd love it in a fantasy game were it was creepy & eldrich, not trash. Trying to figure out the balance is going to be hard. Think about it, I'd love to hear any ideas on your part for this difficult task./
@alokov I've seen it in some of the 4e videos I think. Someone thought they were being clever. They had the whole table set up & were carefully putting all the markers around their minis to show conditions. I tell you the only thing that could have saved the video was me running in and sending the table & all to the ground!
Durations arent that hard to keep track of for me. If I really am split in too many directions, I'll drop a spin down dice or something. Regardless, I will say I love me some morningstar. Please believe I'll be bringing one on just about any fighter or barbarian I play. Always good to have a back up, and you'll be looking the fool when your sword cant bruise the pulpy flesh of the undead, or just lances through the gelatinous mass of a slime.
@TabletopTitan Morning Stars are great, I really enjoy them, they are on my top 10 weapons. I'll be playing 3.5 D&D a new campaign in about 2 1/2 hours. I'll be your favorite class, a bard.
@TabletopTitan Just back from the game, it went pretty well. It was the first time I've played a Bard in D&D in a long time. Although, the first D&D character I ever played was a Bard when I was 14.
Funny thing. D&D, forefather of RPGs, came out of wargames. Not saying its bad you don't like 'em but it is interesting how something you hate so much evolved into something you love.
@marvelona You should have seen the first video I did on this, I really went crazy on wargames. I would prefer terrible physical pain to ever having to play one again. It is really the trappings that evolved. I really dislike hack & slash gaming too. I want to get into the character's skin & mind, his emotions or as a DM into the living world.
@marvelona That's true, and a lot of the problems I had with AD&D back in the 80s, that made me switch to the Hero System, were all the rules that came STRAIGHT out of wargaming. (All the endless random tables and stuff like rolling reactions and morale that we never even used.) I haven't done much wargaming, myself, apart from FASA's Star Trek ship combat game. That was fairly simple, but what I saw of STARFLEET BATTLES from the same time, looked ridiculously complex.
@herkles1 You are right about that for sure. The idea I have, is to bring that story focus. The idea of interacting with politics, religion, magic societies, guilds; in a high role-playing style to a d20 fantasy game. To me, it seems d20 has too many needless rules and too many things that cause the DM to have to work overtime without adding anything to this.
@CyberPhysician That's right and it totally makes sense, as that's how movies & TV shows are set up. I think that style will work well for d20 fantasy & help make the game more fun to run.
@woodwwad it may be arbitrary, but mostly because I do want a certain sense that things can expire particularly at low levels. Really, by 5th level it'll be a moot point, but below that any 1 round/level duration spells should have the oppertunity to fade away during combat. This is partially based on my personal belief that the average "Standard combat" at equal CR to a 4 PC party tends to be about 3-4 rounds long. There's exceptions of course, and finangling and stuff but yeah.
I guess some of the upkeep like durations is the reason I haven't played any D20 games in awhile, though I am supposed to run a Game of Thrones D20 game soon. For most of it I had the players keep track of things, but I did have to keep track of stuff for the NPCs and that was annoying.
@Samwise7RPG Sure & wouldn't this be a lot nicer. It'll certainly make it more fluid. I think a lot of the people like yourself that find d20 a burnout game will really be able to get with the product I'm putting together.
If you don't want your wizards and priests running around with forcefields and defense bonuses while they're traveling from place to place, and would rather force them to cast such effects when they actually get into combat, (and I can see that viewpoint), then I'd just say they last "for the duration of one fight", or a few minutes. In all mu years of playing, I doubt if I've ever seen a battle last more than 5 minutes in GAME TERMS. Most probably last less than a minute, to the characters.
@GoblinXXX Duration of the fight or you scene. Most battles certainly last less than a minute. A minute is 10 rounds. A 5 minute combat is really long for sure.
@woodwwad 6 of one, half dozen of the other. You generally only need to worry about what spells are in effect if SOME sort of combat is going on. In HERO, 5 turns is a minute, and characters can act from twice to 6 times a turn, depending on their "SPEED" (Joe Blow acts twice, most heroes 3-4 times).
@GoblinXXX When I originally started writing the RPG I've working on, one of my players really tried to get me to go with an initiative based action system for the game.
I wonder if I'll ever play any of the Hero games. It is 1 somehow I've always missed.
@woodwwad The SPEED characteristic has it's good points and it's bad points. It helps reflect the common action cliche' of one guy able to take on several lesser thugs at once, but it also means that speedy heroes get tired faster, and it raises the question of handling things without characteristics, like damage from fire, poisoned gas, etc. I do like the fact that you act in order of your dexterity, but you declare your actions in reverse order first, so fast people know what slow ones plan.
I've never had a problem keeping track of durations, and my players track their own spell durations. It only gets complicated when you have multiple effects to keep track of.
@woodwwad Yes, but I can honestly say that I've never had that as a problem. Players keep track of such themselves and rarely have more than two or three effects going. As long as players help out and don't load it all onto the DM/GM then it shouldn't be a problem to keep track of.
if i was making a spell system for a new d20 system i would definitely crap can spells per day and even spell points or psionic points. i would use a skill based system with a caster level check, and you could raise the DC to increase duration. i never thought about duration like you just mentioned in your video, but i agree with you. perhaps with a +2DC you could up the duration by one step, from an encounter to an hour, from two rounds to an encounter etc.
@greycloud24 Thanks, I plan on using a spell points & automatically incorporating metamagic feats into spells. Allowing you to cast spells with longer duration for example.
I like having percise durations but hate having to keep track of them. My players keep track of everything in the game. I opt to keep track of some things as combat unfolds. Mostly just opponents HP if they have DR ,energy resistance or, a SQ that alters the players damage running total. I opt to keep track other facets of the game at my leasure, if I choose not to, my players have a record I can trust.
@BattleBunny1979 Yes I did but I was much younger then :) I would recommend, as I'm sure Ander would also, for anyone to try at least once a much longer game session than one normally plays. It is an interesting and so rewarding experience to play for extended periods of time with one session. I find it to be so :)
@23penguins32 I did a few long sessions , long being like 8-9 hours. We are still planning a D&D weekend but so far it hasnt come to be. usual session is 4-6 hours generally. I would LOVE to dive into a game for a day or two, but I have no clue how to get that done with work/life and other people's work/life/etc. Someday...maybe...
@BattleBunny1979 8-10 hours is my norm. Less than 8 seems like a teaser, as if it's going to end too soon after the start. That goes for me and the group. Ander has said very similar ideas as well to session length. I think the long sessions, for me 14+ hours, have all been played due to the story(-ies) driving the session length. As in my post of character death of my Paladin PC. That needed to be done in 1 go. Not every-all 'episodes' need be long. Be nice to know your thoughts after long play
If I can comment here on Duration 7 Time passage in D&D in my world: Three Months Real Time= 1 Year game time. 1 YR Real Time=4 YRs Game Time. Spell Duration is marked by myself as GM & Kept By Me..Often circumstances cause a spell not to work-max duration. Players shouldn't know why this as they wouldn't in real life, unless SpellCaster can figure out. I also have players roll D20 "25" X before session begins for mysterious Pre-rolled saves. I don't always want players to know whats up =D
KorumEmrys 1 month ago
@KorumEmrys The way I've decided to do it is level 1-5 are apprentice levels. So duration is 1 round per level up until there for spells, after that duration is scene. For other powers, it is variable.
Letting players not know what's up is certainly good.
woodwwad 1 month ago
That anti war game rant was funny as hell.
flequmaster 2 months ago
@flequmaster Thank you, I took racial enemy war gamers with my first ranger level.
woodwwad 2 months ago
Early on, the duration of spells matters a great deal against challenges, especially if they only last some odd rounds. However, when PCs have the capacity to have it be 10 rounds or more, then keeping track of when they end isn't too much a bother.
Besides, if you're having fight after fight which requires you to properly note the durations, you're obviously doing it wrong in my book. Too many fights is ever a drain, as I continue to learn in my playing. ;)
JoeSomebody2 2 months ago
@JoeSomebody2 Yes, you are right, you shouldn't have loads of combat in a campaign. While if you run the game for say a year, it would be fine to have 1 or 2 sessions that were full of combat must games shouldn't have any combat in them at all. I think it matters a little, which is why I say 1, then 2 rounds, then a scene. I might even go 1,2,3, then scene.
woodwwad 2 months ago
I can certainly understand why you'd like to go this way with it, seems more believable & realistic to me. I might have to use this idea the next time I run a D&D game.
NordtheBarbarian 2 months ago
@NordtheBarbarian excellent, hope it works well for you
woodwwad 2 months ago
wargames with a story can be good though. I opened a can of whoopass didnt I?
BattleBunny1979 2 months ago
@BattleBunny1979 Oh Hell Yeah. Now we are going to have to walk it dry.
woodwwad 2 months ago
@WhyMeMoFo I have to live the gimmick brother.
woodwwad 2 months ago
Re: messing up buffs. Not surprisingly, I've encountered this problem. In my view, there are three inputs into any resolution: the die roll, the modifiers (skill bonus or whatever, plus circumstantial bonuses or penalties), and the fudge factor. Over the course of a campaign, die rolls average out, so those are actually predictable. The fudge factor is less predictable, but I tend to assume it evens out. If a buff is forgotten, I chalk it up to "the god of luck", and might compensate later.
Joshbuckler 2 months ago
your solution seems reasonable. But realize that you are going in the direction of metagaming. Spells originally have durations because that's how they were described in the fiction that early gamers were attempting to emulate (Jack Vance's Dying Earth series). If I have a mystical ritual that I know, it shouldn't make a difference how long the fight lasts. It's done when it's done.
Joshbuckler 2 months ago
@Joshbuckler I wouldn't say it is metagaming. I haven't read dying earth but from what I've seen of it, it doesn't sound like something I'd like to base my magic system around; however, it will be supported with fiction.
woodwwad 2 months ago
@woodwwad maybe metagaming is too gamey of a word. There's something fourth-wall-breaking in your interpretation of powers and abilities lasting "to the end of the scene". I don't hold total immersion to be a sacred cow, so I'd be okay with a mage in a movie saying (cue Monty Python voice) "I shall manifest this power of the arcane mysteries, and it shall last until the director says 'Cut.'"
Joshbuckler 2 months ago
@Joshbuckler I totally disagree with you about your thought that this would be 4 wall breaking. In fact, I find counting rounds down, that style to be 4 wall breaking. Scene is how most magical abilities in novels, tv shows or movies work. Never heard anyone make that statement in WOD as they use the scene mechanic & it works well.
woodwwad 2 months ago
@woodwwad one of the first things that hung me in WoD ... I thought it was interesting and novel at first, but then frustratingly simple when I got into the games... as I got experienced with it... now I can go either way, but there are times I find making a call for less abstraction necessary... yes even as a player.
... now you have heard that statement in WOD ... XD
thespiritcoyote 2 months ago
I hear ya, brother! Something I've learned about D&D3.X from several long campaigns: no combat (even the massive ones) lasts more than 8 rounds. I know this because I used to track the duration of my Barbarian's "Rage" ability. Not once did my "Rage" end before the combat was over. Because of that, I found the "Extended Range" Feat from one of the splat books to be the biggest waste of a Feat I could imagine and never blighted my character by taking it. We had some nasty combats but none over 8.
Webhead123 2 months ago
@Webhead123 right, so it is a total wast of time to track it. Just fight the combat, then sell the exhaustion afterwards, gives you something else to do then. 8 rounds of combat with say 4-6 players takes a long time.
woodwwad 2 months ago
Haven't had the chance to do any wargaming myself, so I can't say if I like it or not. I'd like to do some, though. If I end up not liking it, I don't have to do it again.
Like gruegirl said, I kind of like the idea that a spell, especially for a low-level character, can wear out before the battle's over. But it does tend to become a moot point at higher levels, so maybe... oh idk.
The idea that a power lasts "for the duration of this fight" seems reasonable in most cases.
SailorBarsoom 2 months ago
@SailorBarsoom Thanks for sharing your views.
woodwwad 2 months ago
Comment removed
SailorBarsoom 2 months ago
Reminds me of how we cured the "keeping track of the arrows" problem by giving unlimited quivers...
LOXMYTHIC 2 months ago
@LOXMYTHIC This might seem odd then but I'm huge on making characters mark off arrow and the like. I also enjoy having non-magical armor & weapons break.
woodwwad 2 months ago
@woodwwad Me too on both counts.
Webhead123 2 months ago
I like wargames. But I think of them as board games not rpgs.
Who has two thumbs and made mistakes with durations? This guy!
I find that my players keep track of their durations in my group well enough and I rarely have problems with it. But as a gm I can just fudge it if need be. Better to do that then slow down the scene. ';I would n't be opposed to durations inthe "combat, Hourly, daily or weekly" range. Maybe I will play test that and see how it works out. Might be game breaking.
masterofflowers 2 months ago
@masterofflowers Funny enough, I think you are the first person here to admit that, it has to be a universal error. I've caught so many people doing it. I don't think it would be game breaking. I would be most interested to see what your play test reveals. I'll tell you what I've done so far with magic once I get you on the horn.
woodwwad 2 months ago
20 Years now heh..? AWESOME...I just got 36 myself and happy to still be going....Don't know that I've become any better, but more detailed and more restrictive at the same time....My average session time is 9 hours, but I am to old to even try to get together If I can't have at least 6 hours- Thumbs Up on the Anti-Wargame campaign..D&D has been my game now for almost 40 years and hopefully will be for another 40..=) GREAT JOB ON VID!!!!!!!! =)
KorumEmrys 2 months ago 4
@KorumEmrys Thank you very much & it is 24 year in the hobby. 9 hours in a good amount of time for a session, I can get with that for sure. I do so dislike short sessions though.
woodwwad 2 months ago
ugh, i hate keeping in track of duration spells, it's ether 1minute per lvl, 1 hour per lvl, etc..., luckily i have plenty of d20's so that i as well as my players can keep in track of them all...sigh.
felipe1gojira 2 months ago
@felipe1gojira yeah, it certainly doesn't make the game more fun.
woodwwad 2 months ago
Interestingly enough (and however one regards the system) 4e actually eliminated durations completely (effects now last only throughout a single fight and/or possibly a day).
abeheron 3 months ago
@abeheron I would think any collection of rules would have to get something right ;)
woodwwad 2 months ago
At the top of the round, I make all spell casters remind people of their bonuses from buffs. Then I go into initiative. I only keep track of NPC spell durations. If the player forgets to remind the group, that's the group's problem. I force them to be accountable for their own buffs. Partially to keep my sanity, but also it makes the players keep track of their bonuses to rolls. I've noticed this really helps prevent lone-wolves as it reinforces the party to work together.
SgtJesse 3 months ago
@SgtJesse That is certainly better, make the players do the work.
woodwwad 3 months ago
I think your suggestion seems pretty good, although I would say that round-by-round duration has never particularly bothered me (piece of paper, tick off rounds until spell ends). Tracking minutes is silly, because then you've got to track movement rates, and time pauses etc. in case combat starts again before the spell runs out.
I've never been a wargame player, but remember that D&D did evolve from wargames, so that will leave its mark.
spaceLem 3 months ago
@spaceLem Thanks
woodwwad 3 months ago
I confess this comes from little to no knowledge of real summoning magic as I find the idea extremely arrogant dangerous and stupid. But I love it in games and stories.
alokov 3 months ago
On summoning: well one of the major cornerstone of it in my mind is the risk, the ability of the thing to break out or subvert the spell. Also, due to this risk, the pain-staking nature of getting it all right. I would say, make people research the fuck out of it, maybe have to go up a "ladder" of different entities, coercing one into giving the key to the next ritual. I know this is all fluff and I'm sure you know it all but shrug. I too would love to see it implemented. Love to play J Curwen.
alokov 3 months ago
@alokov You are totally on the 100% on it here. This is sadly impossible with the D&D rules which is the problem. I know a lot about real world occult & summoning, so I have much to draw upon. True names, artistic sigils, binding spirits to items, ect. The big problem is making summoning quick enough to have some use in combat without whoring the flavor. Fluff is what is important & mech should just be built to support it. You are right, it should be amazingly dangerous.
woodwwad 3 months ago
I can totally get on board with not tracking so much you burn-out... but I can't recall any time when this has been an issue, there are so many tricks for tracking time... and with it durations and conditions, this has never been a noticed focus adding weight to my mind.
As far as forgetting items, that applies to everything that needs tracking... I've seen everything from important scheduled events and NPC aspects, to conditions(spells/items/etc...) and regeneration, none more than another.
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
@thespiritcoyote I find it is a great annoyance to many players.
woodwwad 3 months ago
Day, hour, scene, next-time-you-take-a-dump, these are all the best ways to handle durations of spells. However, I add another: Encounter.
No fights really last THAT long, in-game time. So a Bless spell being "encounter" just makes sense. It also allows that goblin skulking on the sidelines to wait till after the battle, then sneak in with a shank when the Bless spell is gone!
PS: Surprise! Ander likes morningtstars! A weapon named after the devil himself!
Onionkid99 3 months ago
@Onionkid99 You know me so well, how much I do love the devil, ah good ol' the devil.
I agree, that works well.
woodwwad 3 months ago
Do you allow conditions to be removed during combat? What if the paralyze spell is only meant to hold a person frozen for a moment & not the entire combat? Either the spell cease to work OR you just gave that spell a lot more power.
During an assault on a dungeon or castle, you COULD have 4 or 6 or 8 encounters within a single 'day'. Does duration hold from encounter to encounter or do you use a new power for each encounter? Either way, that slants the power gradient.
tetsubo57 3 months ago
@tetsubo57 Well, with Hold Person you get to try to get out of it every round & I don't find the way it is set up a distraction. So I wouldn't change the breaking out of it at all. If the spell is only meant to work for 1 or 2 rounds though, it'll just work for 1 or 2 rounds. I keep that part of duration. It would depend on the way the encounters went down. Think of it like a cut scene in a TV show or movie, that would be the reset.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@tetsubo57 these are some of the first things came to mind also...
year, month, week, day, hour, scene, next-set-event, encounter, 1-5 rounds, immediate action, instant... these are probably the best initial durations to set an effect for as default.... but some conditions will effect duration...
If the magic system is too linearly flat it tends to be a turn off for me... casting times and durations are one of the items that helps magic feel dynamic and part of a living world.
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
But down the 'scene' road leads to 'encounter powers'. Which I despise. I don't have a problem with daily powers. Or at will powers. But encounter powers are just artificial & weird to me. Though I do see the attraction of scene powers.
I use a simple condition system with miniatures. Face up on it's back, something is wrong. Face down & it's dead. Standing up & it is still in action.
Do you track HP on monsters at all?
I hate morningstars? Untrue! I hate spiked chains. Different beast.
tetsubo57 3 months ago
@tetsubo57 Yes, I do track HP on the monsters. I let the players take care of most other things. I have a very physical style of GMing. I get up & move around a lot during scenes, especially combat. We'll go through lots of detailed descriptions that occasionally need some acting out. I thought you said something about morning stars not being weapons in 1 of gents posts.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad I am a up-and-mobile type also... in more conservative groups I have incured the "sit down and describe character actions" warning, when just posing... I hate that.
As a GM I have pulled the game so far away from the table-top that it almost becomes LARP... I've played and run at places like the beach, and in the market... having moved to those locations on whim mid-game... starting sessions, and entirely new characters that have no stats yet in the coffee shop is not uncommon either.
thespiritcoyote 3 months ago
You've got a good point there.
I use initiative cards with a post-it stuck to it. When a bless goes off I jot it down and start ticking off the rounds every time the card comes up. Same with conditions
That said, if you can simplify the process, I'm all ears dude.
vention4wh 3 months ago
@vention4wh & I certainly have, glad you are likely that idea. When I heard they were coming out with 4e, I thought they'd create a more streamline more RP focused version of D&D. So I was wrong there . . . but I figured why not give it a try myself?
woodwwad 3 months ago
Nice tutorial man and keep up the awesome work. :)
Vdecepticon 3 months ago
@Vdecepticon thanks
woodwwad 3 months ago
My DnD GM extended the duration of creature/monster summon spells for double what it says in the book, energy resistance spells and ability modification spells like bull strength which all last a full day now.
ZigCopasetic 3 months ago
@ZigCopasetic I really dislike the way summoning is done in D&D. I think that'll be a nightmare rebuilding. It just feels so flavorless.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad Summoning is TRASH and I say this as someone who took a summon spell in the Planescape game.
alokov 3 months ago
@alokov Yeah, it is handled terribly. F- job. I'll have to gut it & redo it. the problem is it has no flavor. Celestial Badger? Really, fucking stupid! With detail Summoning can be amazing, it is a corner stone of "real magic" & I'd love it in a fantasy game were it was creepy & eldrich, not trash. Trying to figure out the balance is going to be hard. Think about it, I'd love to hear any ideas on your part for this difficult task./
woodwwad 3 months ago
By the way where did the rubber band thing come from. Never heard of that.
alokov 3 months ago
@alokov I've seen it in some of the 4e videos I think. Someone thought they were being clever. They had the whole table set up & were carefully putting all the markers around their minis to show conditions. I tell you the only thing that could have saved the video was me running in and sending the table & all to the ground!
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad That would save any video.
alokov 3 months ago 6
@alokov absolutely
woodwwad 3 months ago
@alokov lol
OwlbearJack 2 months ago
Durations arent that hard to keep track of for me. If I really am split in too many directions, I'll drop a spin down dice or something. Regardless, I will say I love me some morningstar. Please believe I'll be bringing one on just about any fighter or barbarian I play. Always good to have a back up, and you'll be looking the fool when your sword cant bruise the pulpy flesh of the undead, or just lances through the gelatinous mass of a slime.
TabletopTitan 3 months ago
@TabletopTitan Morning Stars are great, I really enjoy them, they are on my top 10 weapons. I'll be playing 3.5 D&D a new campaign in about 2 1/2 hours. I'll be your favorite class, a bard.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad You show them cats who the real Jack of all Trades is!
TabletopTitan 3 months ago
@TabletopTitan Just back from the game, it went pretty well. It was the first time I've played a Bard in D&D in a long time. Although, the first D&D character I ever played was a Bard when I was 14.
woodwwad 3 months ago
Funny thing. D&D, forefather of RPGs, came out of wargames. Not saying its bad you don't like 'em but it is interesting how something you hate so much evolved into something you love.
marvelona 3 months ago
@marvelona You should have seen the first video I did on this, I really went crazy on wargames. I would prefer terrible physical pain to ever having to play one again. It is really the trappings that evolved. I really dislike hack & slash gaming too. I want to get into the character's skin & mind, his emotions or as a DM into the living world.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@marvelona That's true, and a lot of the problems I had with AD&D back in the 80s, that made me switch to the Hero System, were all the rules that came STRAIGHT out of wargaming. (All the endless random tables and stuff like rolling reactions and morale that we never even used.) I haven't done much wargaming, myself, apart from FASA's Star Trek ship combat game. That was fairly simple, but what I saw of STARFLEET BATTLES from the same time, looked ridiculously complex.
GoblinXXX 3 months ago
I actually like wargames, but when I play an RPG; I do not want to be playing a war-game, if I wanted a war game, then I could play a wargame.
as for duration, I am with you, this is why I like systems such as world of darkness, much more story focused based and easier to understand.
herkles1 3 months ago
@herkles1 You are right about that for sure. The idea I have, is to bring that story focus. The idea of interacting with politics, religion, magic societies, guilds; in a high role-playing style to a d20 fantasy game. To me, it seems d20 has too many needless rules and too many things that cause the DM to have to work overtime without adding anything to this.
woodwwad 3 months ago
I loved the scene duration from WoD because its allways just as long as you need and never too long.
CyberPhysician 3 months ago
@CyberPhysician That's right and it totally makes sense, as that's how movies & TV shows are set up. I think that style will work well for d20 fantasy & help make the game more fun to run.
woodwwad 3 months ago
I agree mostly, but my cutoff is 5 rounds rather then two. Beyond 30 seconds, screw it! It's all of combat.
Gruegirl 3 months ago
@Gruegirl 5 rounds seems a little long, why that long?
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad it may be arbitrary, but mostly because I do want a certain sense that things can expire particularly at low levels. Really, by 5th level it'll be a moot point, but below that any 1 round/level duration spells should have the oppertunity to fade away during combat. This is partially based on my personal belief that the average "Standard combat" at equal CR to a 4 PC party tends to be about 3-4 rounds long. There's exceptions of course, and finangling and stuff but yeah.
Gruegirl 3 months ago
@Gruegirl My thought would be ending it at 5 rounds would be high enough as to still force the book keeping I'll be looking to avoid.
woodwwad 3 months ago
I guess some of the upkeep like durations is the reason I haven't played any D20 games in awhile, though I am supposed to run a Game of Thrones D20 game soon. For most of it I had the players keep track of things, but I did have to keep track of stuff for the NPCs and that was annoying.
Samwise7RPG 3 months ago
@Samwise7RPG Sure & wouldn't this be a lot nicer. It'll certainly make it more fluid. I think a lot of the people like yourself that find d20 a burnout game will really be able to get with the product I'm putting together.
woodwwad 3 months ago
If you don't want your wizards and priests running around with forcefields and defense bonuses while they're traveling from place to place, and would rather force them to cast such effects when they actually get into combat, (and I can see that viewpoint), then I'd just say they last "for the duration of one fight", or a few minutes. In all mu years of playing, I doubt if I've ever seen a battle last more than 5 minutes in GAME TERMS. Most probably last less than a minute, to the characters.
GoblinXXX 3 months ago
@GoblinXXX Duration of the fight or you scene. Most battles certainly last less than a minute. A minute is 10 rounds. A 5 minute combat is really long for sure.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad 6 of one, half dozen of the other. You generally only need to worry about what spells are in effect if SOME sort of combat is going on. In HERO, 5 turns is a minute, and characters can act from twice to 6 times a turn, depending on their "SPEED" (Joe Blow acts twice, most heroes 3-4 times).
GoblinXXX 3 months ago
@GoblinXXX When I originally started writing the RPG I've working on, one of my players really tried to get me to go with an initiative based action system for the game.
I wonder if I'll ever play any of the Hero games. It is 1 somehow I've always missed.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad The SPEED characteristic has it's good points and it's bad points. It helps reflect the common action cliche' of one guy able to take on several lesser thugs at once, but it also means that speedy heroes get tired faster, and it raises the question of handling things without characteristics, like damage from fire, poisoned gas, etc. I do like the fact that you act in order of your dexterity, but you declare your actions in reverse order first, so fast people know what slow ones plan.
GoblinXXX 3 months ago
I've never had a problem keeping track of durations, and my players track their own spell durations. It only gets complicated when you have multiple effects to keep track of.
EryxUK 3 months ago
@EryxUK That's what I'm talking about, you could have 30 effects going on at the same time.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@woodwwad Yes, but I can honestly say that I've never had that as a problem. Players keep track of such themselves and rarely have more than two or three effects going. As long as players help out and don't load it all onto the DM/GM then it shouldn't be a problem to keep track of.
EryxUK 3 months ago
if i was making a spell system for a new d20 system i would definitely crap can spells per day and even spell points or psionic points. i would use a skill based system with a caster level check, and you could raise the DC to increase duration. i never thought about duration like you just mentioned in your video, but i agree with you. perhaps with a +2DC you could up the duration by one step, from an encounter to an hour, from two rounds to an encounter etc.
greycloud24 3 months ago
@greycloud24 Thanks, I plan on using a spell points & automatically incorporating metamagic feats into spells. Allowing you to cast spells with longer duration for example.
woodwwad 3 months ago
fuck no it ain''t.
alokov 3 months ago
@alokov not at all
woodwwad 3 months ago
I like having percise durations but hate having to keep track of them. My players keep track of everything in the game. I opt to keep track of some things as combat unfolds. Mostly just opponents HP if they have DR ,energy resistance or, a SQ that alters the players damage running total. I opt to keep track other facets of the game at my leasure, if I choose not to, my players have a record I can trust.
blackbarnz 3 months ago
@blackbarnz sure, you do need to keep track of a few things like you mentioned. Good you make your players do a lot of the work, that helps.
woodwwad 3 months ago
youve ran a game for 19 hours? i think you may be a role playing god.
falloutmnky 3 months ago
@falloutmnky Yes & yes, ;)
woodwwad 3 months ago
@falloutmnky Longest marathon gaming session I played was 24 hours. It was *AWESOME*!
Gruegirl 3 months ago
@Gruegirl I've been in several long ones as a player too, it is a lot of fun if you can keep most of the people awake.
woodwwad 3 months ago
@falloutmnky I ran one for 28 hours, a few 18-20. The longer the better. You really have to have a great group though. It's awesome.
23penguins32 2 months ago
@23penguins32 you ran a 28 hour session? ...wow... just.... wow. *walks off impressed and jealous*
BattleBunny1979 2 months ago
@BattleBunny1979 Yes I did but I was much younger then :) I would recommend, as I'm sure Ander would also, for anyone to try at least once a much longer game session than one normally plays. It is an interesting and so rewarding experience to play for extended periods of time with one session. I find it to be so :)
23penguins32 2 months ago
@23penguins32 I did a few long sessions , long being like 8-9 hours. We are still planning a D&D weekend but so far it hasnt come to be. usual session is 4-6 hours generally. I would LOVE to dive into a game for a day or two, but I have no clue how to get that done with work/life and other people's work/life/etc. Someday...maybe...
BattleBunny1979 2 months ago
@BattleBunny1979 8-10 hours is my norm. Less than 8 seems like a teaser, as if it's going to end too soon after the start. That goes for me and the group. Ander has said very similar ideas as well to session length. I think the long sessions, for me 14+ hours, have all been played due to the story(-ies) driving the session length. As in my post of character death of my Paladin PC. That needed to be done in 1 go. Not every-all 'episodes' need be long. Be nice to know your thoughts after long play
23penguins32 2 months ago