StarCraft 2 Zerg Roach Test - Regeneration - Early Beta

[TEHspy]

wow looking back reminds me how much roaches were nerfed... back then zerg acfually had a chance against a 200/200 T or P army... this regen did seem broken but they shouldn't have nerfed the supply and armor that was unecessary.

[joelpalkia]

i wish roaches were that good.

[staplesferreri]

Even if it is not a problem now what about when they increase roach range? This isn't marine vs collosus where they get owned the roach isn't even fighting back

[Pokedude1013]

For those saying OMG QQ you do realize Blizzard actually acknowledged they were imbalanced and reduced the regen rate right? You're just making yourselves look stupid.

[xkill3rx]

this is not unbalanced noobs. crota is QQing as usual thats why he sucks!

[BlizShouter]

@xkill3rx this was early beta and blizzard made the changes that I suggested. this was more for a look into how the game has changed since early beta.

[rustybubble2]

@BlizShouter Perhaps you should indicate this is Beta in the title, it may be misleading now ;)

[vvolfy11]

@xkill3rx Crota is fine, you should learn some manners...

[AJGNW]

Sorry but i cant get through to this...

There has been a huge discussion about the "roach problem" and i think to this date its pretty okay. I mean... How often do you see someone go freaking bananas with roach burrow? And i think a decent player will be able to deal with a burrowed roach dude o.O

So instead of going like "OLOL THIS IS WEIRD MUST NERF" ask yourself "How often have i encountered this problem?"

[BlizShouter]

@AJGNW This was from early beta. Back when roaches were one food, has two armor and double regen. This was a trip down memory lane.

[AJGNW]

@BlizShouter Aw shit. I just totally made an ass of myself >.>

[700007123]

Roaches regenerate that fast only when burrowed. When they unburrow you can easily one shot kill the Roaches. Just focus ur fire.

I don't understand why people complain about Roaches. You just have to know how to counter them.

[Slat3r]

i dont think this is a imbalance, because if u burrow all ur units u even cant fight

its just good if the zerg has good micro, i mean realy good micro. but a nice opponent will JUST FOCUS roaches so they will go down and down

[tremapar]

Does the void ray's peak dps exceed the roach hp regen? If not, how many would it take?

This insane regen rate is why they took out AA for the roach, initially it could attack ground and air. Also, this is at hive tech, and all races have units with huge damage outputs.

Maybe the regen rate should go down a bit, but I don't think it should be weakened by a great deal.

[g0rbak]

and the roach is the only strong unit in a zerg army... and as a protoss he has colossus and other STRONG crap that would rape a rouch's ass... you compare a zealot to a roach ? compare 2 lings vs a zealot... or the big Immortal that easilly rape roaches...

[thevividdream]

it's not even fighting back...

plus this vid is completely outside the context of actual battle

video of this being exploited to advantage in an actual match or gtfo

[Clackergille]

it's supposed to be hard as hell to kill them while burrowed

[xppower2001]

OMG and roach can move while borrow,

[kakashi1150]

also, 4 zellots killed the roach, however, please note the time it took... during a real battle, a person with good micro burrows the roach, even IF there was an detector near by. it will take SO MUCH damage output just to kill it. During that time, the mass roaches / 3 roaches : 2 hydra build from zerg... will be ripping away at ur forces trying to take out the roach

[martinarcand1]

Roaches are now the best :P

[borgoff55]

The cows can go back out again lol

[kirmokin]

I think they are balanced, considering you need to upgrade speed, burrow travel and the regeneration individually, and since they are armored there are heavy counters to them such as immortals and marauders.

[ohAlanho]

I don't think the roach is OP. To be able to endure that much damage they have to be burrowed first so they can't attack. So the zealots may not be able to kill them, but the roach can't kill the zealots either.

With that extra HP regen upgrade, it seems high tier so by that team, the toss will have lots of strong units to overcome the massive regeneration anyways.

[H0R5H0E]

@ohAlanho So the Zerg player just burrows, *outpaces* the damage as we just saw, regens to full hp, and comes up to mortify the Zealots with some more attacks.

The roaches will win, and they will defeat not just superior numbers, but superior supply and resource cost, in Zealots. All it 'costs' is micro (it does require attention).

IMO shield regen shouldn't be worse than Zerg regen. It's only because of Immortals you can't have shields regenerating in combat (absurd math), so nerf HP regen.

[szhrong]

Does the roach have regeneration boosted while unburrowed?

[Pwn4g3234]

hive tech is late game. by that time they would have immortal and collsus that outrange and shit on roaches. the regen is not that powerful. 3 imortal shots kill the roaches. Also the roaches burrow regen is what makes it a powerful harass unit. Since they are burrowed they cannot attack, so the opponent can send his 10 zelots and focus attack each roach at a a time. They are not that great

[Coolflames101]

but the zerg also has ultralisks in late game and tech of its own. i don't even think a psi storm could kill a burrowed roach. way to powerful. they are going to change it for sure, or reduce the regen rate.

[TheLiquidPepper]

Without an observer or equivalent, the roaches will be an I-win-button when properly microed. Unless the opponent can offer some very nice focus fire.

[MoparDRVR]

@TheLiquidPepper yea just like zealot massing in sc1 ?

[TheLiquidPepper]

This is sc2 mate, you cant balace this game on how it used to be

[MoparDRVR]

@TheLiquidPepper STFU BITCH BRIT!!!

[TheLiquidPepper]

@MoparDRVR Wow, you are really stupid.

[MoparDRVR]

hey your a cumb bucket cherrio queer bait brit...

[TheLiquidPepper]

@MoparDRVR Thanks for proving my point.

[Mossmage]

You think roaches can't kill zealots? Play before you say things please.

[BruceBeefcake]

It would only broken if the Roach was able to kill all the Zealots... and you're using Tier 3 upgrades against tier 1 units. Of course its going to look like its broken...

[whit3soul]

balanced.. stop QQing nabs

[Seira88]

Roach regen speed = operation CWAL speed = cheat , the regen rate needs to be tuned down, the required effort to kill just ONE roach is just too much and makes the game off balance

[emikochan13]

Sorry, but the vids don't prove anything, at t3 in a realistic situation, its fine. Getting a bunch of upgrades should make your unit much more effective...

Immortals, storms, DTs, warp rays etc, the zealots would be more likely to counteract the regen so that the rest of your army just takes them down with no fuss.

[MoparDRVR]

exactly killing a roach has nothing to do with power of attack.. but the rate of attack... and 2nd off for all you ppl BITCHING about sc2 unbalanced remember it took Broodwar 10 years to be as perfectly balanced as it is now... Sc2 is still in - Negative release lol and u ppl are whining stop crying.. remember when their was no lurkers / Medics!! STFU AND SUCK A DICK!!

[Wond3rballs]

By your logic you are reducing the rate the game will be balanced at. The ENTIRE point of the beta is to balance the game and get feedback from players. I think you should take the last 5 words of your post (1 acronym to be technical) and do it yourself.

[MoparDRVR]

@Wond3rballs at no point did i say sc2 will be balanced by beta... im saying it took a while for Reg sc to balance then they brought out broodwar for a reason... they have 3 games and unlimited patches this time around for sc2 so it'll prob be just right sooner then ppl expect... chances are for the seperate versions that will be sold will add new units like BW did...

[Wond3rballs]

Then why are you telling people to stfu and not talk about balancing the game?

[MoparDRVR]

SUCK A DICK CUNT!!!

[CaptainWin123]

Don't think it matters much if the roach can't attack while it is regenerating/burrowed; why can't a group of roaches simply attack -> burrow and run to replenish health in a matter of seconds -> attack again. Or even ignore enemy forces and go straight for workers at expansions, which would seem very feasible considering you need detectors to even see them, then you have to contend with high speed regen, and finally you have to catch them.

[PewpewFighter]

Zealots can kill any "basic" ground unit.

[RodZerg]

wow

[Odbarc]

This is why Lurkers were removed, I'd imagine.

If you hid Roaches next to Lurkers to tank damage while they splash damaged? Ooouch.

[Maharoba]

fix that fucking regen rate. thats ridiculous

[LucLeFou]

nerf roachesssssss

[ccmaster]

So a unit with a tier 3 upgrade that can't fight back needs something other than a tier 1 unit to kill it....oh yes, terribly overpowered....Starcraft 2 is a game of hard counters. By the time zerg gets that upgrade for the roaches, protoss better have immortals. Also, while the roaches are unburrowed, they don't regenerate that quickly. Finally, the super fast regen has potential for some good micro. If microd well, the roach wins unless the opponent can do some sick maneuvers himself.

[pSYoniK]

ermmm in w3 if you entered gargolyes in the stone form you'd have like 500000 hp/s regen and that didnt need nerfin ... ppl dealt with that just fine thank you... i would say this is just a mod of that skill tbh

[BlizShouter]

Did you see the fight of immortal vs Roaches?

[Wylff]

When he says fixed, he mean nerfed.

[Prolink]

I missed this. What I'd wonder, considering the Roach is currently placed as a "base unit" counter, is how long it lasts against zealots with attack upgrades.

[Vampirvirus]

Good Point...

I must say you are right :D.

[spiritconsumer]

ok but if you compare other T2 units compare to many other t1 units all at once it will look similar to this.

[Kilithaza]

@spiritconsumer Roach are T1

[spiritconsumer]

why do people always build spawning pools and whatnot before that? i thought they were T2 because it takes slightly longer. If they're T1 would'nt they just skip over zerglings and go straight for the warren? It they're T1 than by all means fucking nerf them. lol

[Kilithaza]

@spiritconsumer You need a spawning pool to get a roach warren and a few initial zerglings are good for fightning off the scout.

[meachy13]

nope, they're tear 2, you need spawning pool.

[MoparDRVR]

tier 1.5.... tier 2 meaning you need lair. just like hydra den was tier 1.5 in broodwar

[2MinuteSoup]

thats insane.... send to blizzard rofl

[msrm55]

can a nuke take it down :D

[templarjay]

lol awsome... nice research :D

[SyzygyTT]

i myself am a zerg player and i must admit you have a point there.. i agree it should start regenerating 2-3 sec after it stopped taking dmg. as a matter of fact i ran into the same problem in a zvz, it was pretty much a tie...

[spiritconsumer]

i think they SHOULD have the regen rate, its what makes roaches roaches. And the movement underground as well. but i think the regen needs to at least be cut in half. Always have regen, just make it way less than what it is now.

[meachy13]

lol agree'd, the only people who cry about it, are people who don't really like zerg, theres a billion of other unfair things for all the teams, how dare roaches get something special, also, zealots the first guy who comes out... you need too get a roach waren to get roaches... requires a spawing pool and den. and 1/1 no burrow zealots win, so they should stfu and deal with it, js.

[vinja858]

wow excellent find. Blizzard will undoubtedly address this...you zerg party pooper.

[GmanGregilla]

That was a good point made by you from in this!

[1989Pure1989]

leave it alone, zergs have nothing else worth building right now.

[steven129er]

zerg do not have good tier 1 or 3 units. that maybe why hydras and roaches are sooo good

[GeneralBolas]

Isn't that an oxymoron? You're saying that Roaches are "sooo" good, but that the Zerg have no good Tier 3 units.

And if you haven't seen the business end of a Brood Lord, you don't know what the Zerg have in Tier 3.

[pawned5]

I wonder how many marines or marauders u nid to take it down..

[CreepyMuffin]

I know its a little crazy, but we are talking about a tier 3 unit against the basest of protoss units, so.... yeah. And yes its a tier 3 unit with hive upgrades. Also keep in mind how the roach cant do anything if its regening like this. And frankly, if you're actually trying to kill a hive upgraded roach with un-upgraded regular zealots (which are multi-attack against base 2 armor and not at all a counter to roaches) in an actual game, it should be that hard.

[PutoEIQueLoLea]

4 zealots vs 1 roach...

WOW!!!

[shrint]

you should send this video in to blizzard beta feedback

[superarbol]

o god... roach rlz

[moviemaster2010]

yeah roaches are imba, if u got good micro you could save so many roaches and i think regen is faster than psi storm

[artisaucy]

lol that is ridiculous..

[Omniofaco]

I can imagine the roaches regen being cheep when combined with their ability to move while burrowed. Also, using a burrowed roach to block an expansion would be so much more annoying than doing it with a zergling or mine in SC1.

[xBiocide]

Maybe, it should be that when the Roach is unburrowed, it regenerates at that special regenerate speed for the Roach. Then, when burrow and that fast regenerate are upgraded, the superfast regenerate should only activate when the Roach is burrowed an not attacked for a while. This will keep the Roach from being able to withstand attacks while being attacked but be more balanced such that it still can take advantage of a lack of detectors (in that it seems to replace the Lurker in a way).

[gamedevMike]

This is like something out of a custom SC1 map. The regen is redonkulous if I spelled that right.

[legacy15kc]

I think the regen should stop when being attacked to because it makes no sense to be able to get hit and still heal itself

[RMZ1989]

@legacy15kc That would make sense only if the Roaches had regen when not Burrowed, but when you have to Burrow them to regen, why would they stop regenerating when being hit?

[JHsillypantsMcGee]

@legacy15kc I don't know about that.

I think it just needs to be slowed down a bunch.

[JHsillypantsMcGee]

@legacy15kc it makes no sense for it to stop while being attacked... because if regeneration is a natural thing for it, why would it stop regenerating when its under attack because that is when it needs it the most... lol

[doogie3001]

Yeah that regen needs a nerf. If your a zerg player i would not worry though im sure the roach would still be a great unit with the regen nerfed abit.

[AsianComedy4865]

i say leave it alone. ive seen some vids roaches getting raped. u dont want them getting any weaker.

[alexdsouto]

lol they never change roaches bc they suck vs armored & mechanical and cant hit air units

[Flyborg]

Roaches are supposed to be hard to kill, and almost impossible to kill in small numbers. Maybe instead of reducing regen, they should reduce the damage output a bit, so they don't have good defense and also offense. Although the burrowed regen is a bit much.

[ChangFamilyVideos]

The roaches are practically indestructible!

[Trib3000]

looks like the roach's upgrade got buffed or something. Because that's 56 damage per swing (4 zealots and 1 armor on the roach, figure it out) and they barely took down the roach. Geez... lol

Wasn't it originally 15+10 after upgrade?

[RMZ1989]

@Trib3000 Roach starts with 2 armor btw, and Zealots are doing 2x8 damage, and with 2 armor, as it works separately, one Zealot is only doing 12 damage to Roach... 4x12=48.

[bombrider19]

Although to be fair....it doesnt look like the zealots have any upgrades themselves...if you upgrade the roach, one could assume the other player could upgrade weapons or something....Alot of things can be imbalanced if you consider things like that....think about how many marines it would take to kill an ultralisk if it had fully upgraded armor while terrans had no upgrades themselves...

[xBiocide]

this is a roach though, not a ultralisk. And while the zealots were not upgraded, it took 4 zealots to take it down, which is ridiculous. I think the roach is a great idea and excellent for harass and to be really annoying, but a nerf is severely necessary.

[bombrider19]

Well, that was obviously a very extreme example, but my point was that comparing an upgraded unit (upgraded regeneration) to an unupgraded unit can cause results to become biased. It seems this unit (along with banelings) are meant to be able to deal with tier 1 units easily...though that is pretty much garbage considering the immortal video too lol. I haven't played the game so I can only say so much before playing, but it does look like the unit needs a much higher cost for its effectiveness.

[GeneralBolas]

It's a Roach with 2 upgrades on it, and one of those upgrades is a Tier 3 upgrade that costs 200/200. Plus, the Roach was *burrowed*, which means that it doesn't matter how much damage the Zealots can do. The Roach can't attack back.

[Muck006]

Roaches not attacking back doesnt matter if the Zealots or an Immortal cant kill it and it unburrows at 100% health. The roaches can simply go to the mineral line and kill the probes. Even the annoying Reaper can be shot at while he rushes to the workers.

The point of the upgrades being Tier 3 is moot as well, because you can have a ton of roaches already while you get the upgrades and be ready instantly.

[creativeinsult]

good GOD O____O

[bombrider19]

I don't actually have sc2 beta (unfortunately) so maybe I have no right to say this, but maybe instead of negating regen for 5 seconds after being in combat, maybe just negate half the regen? One thing I did notice, from watching your videos, that really surprised me is that roaches cost 75 gold and 25 gas....that cost should definetly be increased based on what I've seen from this unit's capabilities.

[lordwinters]

should be fixed

[Xxelamoon]

i really agree, from the start i thought roaches were 2 good, they should really nerf the upgrades for roaches and buff hydras maybe?.

[kroncw]

But roaches ar quite costly and plus their not as good as when they burrow .

[Bankbro]

it seems like it would be overpowered but will u honestly be in a situation where u only have 2 zealots fighting a single roach??? plus count upgrades and armor dmg bonus things, then the regen is not a problem since it only works while borrowed.

[fantasypills]

yeh this needs to be fixed

[lucman27]

I agree the little while i got to play the beta (before my pc crashed) i was a zerg player so now you can rush with roaches all you need is burrow and then you can pretty much win i think they should at least slow it down

[wolfcry62]

blizzard give that regeneration for some reason... and is only when burrow. i have to see how they work in mass against a supossed counter like mass roaches vs mass marauders. and we have to remember that an army with a good combination of units can win easy against a mass of one good unit.

[TotulKool]

"we have to remember that an army with a good combination of units can win easy against a mass of one good unit."

EXACTLY!

Real balance is mixed army vs mixed army, this whole one unit mass v other unit mass crud is what needs to be really looked at in ref to balance.

Making balance paper, rock, scissors on a single unit level makes the game more boring.

SC had this problem I think and I would love to see it solved in SC2.

[TotulKool]

Also to all those saying the moved burrow thing is imba gimme a break.

Finally zerg gets a moving cloaked unit, remember thats all burrow is, a different name for cloak.

Its about time at least one Z can move cloaked.

And remember that now in SC2 Z still cannot attack cloaked unlike T and P, cept I guess the baneling self destruct thing, but that only kinda counts.

Cloaked Banshees and DTs are monsters of cloaked attackers.

[Tradethinker]

Crota you are correct. Roaches are imba. I just blew a load on top of O'Reily and he called me a terrorist. Roaches regenerate way too fast and it's ridiculous that they are able to move while burrowed which adds an even greater imba. Anyones else agree?

[CrazyForWoW]

agree

[Artanis186]

I don't think the gap in regen time would be a good fix. I'd just slow it down a bit. The gap would make sense for the Protoss, but I don't see why it would for the Zerg.

And wtf makes the roach heal like that anyways?

[amazingdany]

Tender loving care.

[H4r4ld0]

I'm not in beta unfortunately but seeing your replays and how burrowed roaches survive psi storm after psi storm is kinda crazy. The regeneration itself is fine for but it should be disabled while being attacked, probably in addition that the regeneration kicks in only after the roach has not been attacked like for a timeframe of 5 seconds.

Similiar to the "in combat" and "out of combat" mechanic in wow where you have a different regeneration while being in or out of combat.

[GeneralBolas]

No, the Roach regen is fine.

Zealots are Tier 1. Roaches can't get Burrow until Tier 2, and then it costs 50/50. Roaches can't get Organic Carapace until Tier 3, and that costs 200/200.

The purpose of the Roach is to be hard to kill. At Tier 3, the amount of damage being thrown around is absolutely obscene. Roaches need to be able to survive 45x2 damage shots from Thors, 60-point blasts from Siege Tanks, 23x2 point shots from Colossus, etc.

A measly Zealot shouldn't be able to hurt them.

[Jerh1985]

I agree with this

[Ficko3510]

Excellent example

[khemintiri]

that is a bit to much tbh , i think 5 secs out of combat sounds a bit to much , maybe 3 ? , and btw , keep the healthbars on during shoutcasting (forgot to respond to the last cast)

[INurFACE245]

well... in all the battle reports... all the zerg units were so weak.. i think they just wanted to make them alot stronger

[DJregs]

I like the shield idea....make their regen like the protoss shield...maybe you can show this to blizzard?

[NeoNoggie]

I think the current base regen speed should be halved, and the upgraded speed should be what the current base regen speed is.

[ageuro27]

Roaches should not be able to heal when underground. They should be given a faster healing time above so burrowing is what it should be, for defense. Burrowing and moving can be used as offense which is op. keep the roach movement underground though

[GeneralBolas]

Regen while underground *is* defensive. And burrowed movement costs both burrow research (50/50) and burrowed movement research (150/150). That's a *lot* of money to sink into Roaches.

[xSoYcDx]

yea dude they gotta fix that, crota, you ain't just QQin here, that really needs to be fixed

[Traxiz]

I'm not in the beta so I can't speak from experience but I have watched a lot of SC2 replays and roaches really seem a little bit overpowered. They take one less supply and have a shorter build time than zealots and if you micro a group of roaches correctly they will dominate zealots. I realize that roaches need gas but that seems like a small price to pay. I would really like to see a single unburrowed roach vs a single (zealot, marauder, hydra, stalker) assuming there is no micro involved.

[mcbrite]

I think Husky did a test video with them or involving them...

[HappyEarlyBirthday]

send to blizzard. zerg is just overpowered...

[pdleavin]

compared with roach, crypt fiend costs 3 food and as vulnerable as a balloon

[Pitylord]

Just lower the regen rate by lesser then half IMO. They need the auto regen but they should not survive storms or attacks when detected that well.

[Gnarpig]

Even without the burrowed regen its still OP

[HongKongKanto]

and people complain about imbalance in warcraft

[asfastasicanyt]

I'm pretty sure Zerg units regenerate faster underground... so the only real problem here is how fast the Roach regenerates when its underground. If they nerf that or the Roaches armor by 1, i think that would be a step in the right direction.

Btw, i'm pretty sure stalkers are better against Roaches, but i can see why this would be a problem that leads up to a mutalisk strat overpowering even a good protoss player.

[emperormoroki]

im not actually sure where I stand on this one due to the fact that I dont have beta. you have to take note that zealots kinda lose some of their effectivness late game if not upgraded. A rat of regeneration that fast makes psi storm completely useless agains them. I think they shoud either get rid of the regen upgrade or put a delay on it like 5 seconds and make the regen inturupted when they get attacked

[Siyko]

Not an issue. In hive tech, they will be focus firing any pack of burrowed roaches, even as they move. If your offensive force is 3 zealots at hive tech, you have problems.

[Noahmailloux7]

Crota no! I might go Z!!! xD

[Draemador]

I thought you went overboard initially saying roaches were overpowered in one of your shoutcasts. But man... this is ridiculous.

[SupaMV]

I think if they would remove the 2 armor from it that would make the difference needed.I think the problem is just the base armor the roach has

[BlizShouter]

Even with a Base armor of 1, a burrowed Roach could probably survive 1 Zealot attacking it and 3 with the regen upgrade. If you add in the fact that Roaches can move while burrowed, the extra time Zealots need to take to walk and reposition would require 5 -6 zealots perhaps more even with 1 armor.

[Chaiselol]

The roach regenration while underground is indeeed amazing but as you said a part from that the unit is rather balanced (only ground attack, short range...). It needs to be nerfed to avoid any "large-scale abuse" xD but I feel more concerned about Hydralisk which really are (accroding to me) imbalanced atm... no damages modifiers, hillarious attack speed, long range and both ground and air attack...

[tristanad]

Agreed, this can be an issue. But I imagine they want players to be able to micro them during an attack or defence to burrow, regenerate, then resume battle. Hence, given how fast a base can be levelled in SC2, I'm thinking that they have to keep the regeneration starting instantly, or else cycling through burrowed roaches that have regenerated to defend with (effectively) would require far greater numbers.

Just my thoughts.