Is It Patriotic to Oppose Immigration? - Mark Krikorian

[sharinganclan213]

America is not a nation of immigrants. I was born here and my parents came here legally from soviet armenia. MArk is a true armo lol.

[LatinoInAmerica]

OK We can end all Immigration and asylum

watch?v=tZOXAMNgfNw

[marqujud]

why dont they ever address the real issues about immigration. Who is benefiting from immigration? Why arent companies held responsible? Why are the super rich okay to have 7 houses, cars,jets, 20million golden parachutes yet a person that is risking their lives and working shitty jobs to blame? people lets not get blinded we are all in the same boat fighting for the same limited resources, while the wealthy splurge on resources!!

[UrinationNation]

I think what he is saying has more to do with nationalism than patriotism, since patriotism isn't a real concept anymore, it's a just a catch phrase for nationalists to build up their portfolio of exaggerations. The only thing I will say is that it's not a criminal act that people undertake when they try to come here illegally, you know you would do the same if the roles were reversed. If where you were born does not have adequate supplies to live then you better find them if you want to live

[databoney]

High mass immigration contributes greatly to widening the disparity between rich and poor. It is virtually undermining the American middle class. i strongly agree with Mark's message.

[rhinonose]

where the fuck did his fellow countrymen come from?

he doesn't look native to me...

his family immigrated here generations ago just like mine. big deal. they moved here because the USA is a country where you can build your way up, and make things better for yourself, that's the promise, the american dream, right? the only difference is a few generations. i can't believe people don't see that.

[marqujud]

great point.

[bajawind]

Albert Einstein was a poor immigrant too (and a lousy student). these educated bigots completely miss the point that there is nothing special about them. we all have massive potential--unleash it and this country would thrive--we'd be much better off than we are molly coddling the elite bankers who have no sense of right and wrong or values--unlike people who work their off off to survive. go immigrant!

[milfrie]

I think you have a greater duty to those you are responsible for than others. I have more of a duty to my children than someone elses.. my neighborhood over another.. my country over another. it debatable if helping them just relieves pressure on thier governments to reform and help those that don't come here.

[Shinkotaty]

This guys a douche

[lolman105]

LAWL doesn't it seem ironic the guy arguing for hate looks as if he IS the subject of the hate?

[arequipa1]

no.

[davedaddy101]

Right on Dude!!! God Bless America!!!!

[GeeWeezzz]

I'd like to hear him defend his argument that we have a greater moral obligation towards fellow countrymen. Does that mean you give more food to a starving American than to a starving Mexican? That you must save American children from a fire first, and only then the Mexican children?

That's the wrong end of the immigration debate. We should have immigration regulation because -everyone- ends up better off, -including- Mexicans. Not because we should favor Americans.

[stratvic]

Perhaps everyone would be better off without immigration regulation?

[italianchappy]

Yes. In the same way everyone would be better off having free access to your credit card numbers. For a while, at least. Until you'll be broke too.

By the same token free immigration in US would continue until wages there are depressed exactly as the countries where they come from and there will be no interest in emigrating there anymore.

But it would be more fair. USA would be a lot less rich. has anyone chosen to be born in a rich country instead of an african desert ?

[stratvic]

Associating is not stealing.

The disparities between labor markets have been caused by labor movement restrictions and compounded by trade and subsidy distortions. Eliminating both would develop a meritocratic wealth distribution rather than a parasitic one where countries compete to bleed each other of talent and resources through gaming on a field in which they write the rules and change them at will.

[italianchappy]

>disparities btwn labor markets have been caused by labor movement restrictions

Right on. If I want someone mowing my lawn I've to hire the guy in my village for 20USD/h. If they let people from countries where they get 1 USD/h for the same work I start to have at my disposal more workers and I can start to lower wages. They'll keep coming until here the wage is > to 1 USD/h TILL You'll end up with the same wage in this country and their one.

It's the globalization project. Only one .....

[italianchappy]

It's the globalization project. Only one great country for the world where all the wages will be the same (Indeed few rich people everywhere and a lot of poor people competing for merits).

Is it fair ? Yes.

Is it convenient for western countries workers ? NO.

[stratvic]

High immigration has always lead to economic success. Not everyone leaves their countries...irrational nationalism holds dead beats in place as well as ties to family and friends.ans those who claim a mystical land spirit connection.

Only those who want to create a better life move.

[italianchappy]

> High immigration has always lead to economic success.

Yes, for those having lawns to be mown and those coming there from countries where they gain less. Previous workers are screwed and see their previous wages destroyed. Yep, evolutionary speaking it makes sense. Indeed evolution implied destruction of all inefficiencies.

When you Americans think of successfull immigration you think of or history. Indeed it was successfully for all but those living there before us (europeans)

[umoclenad]

Is it patriotic to claim someone is a lesser citizen because of a opinion

[funkalunatic]

The same exact argument can be used to justify racism.

[GeeWeezzz]

"The same exact argument can be used to justify racism."

Too true. Just change the criterion from "citizenship" to "ethnic group."

[keeparkansaslegal]

America has an obligation to it's citizens first. Pro-illegal activist need to realize that 3rd world countries like Mexico have their own governments that are obligated to provide civilization for their citizens.

[threehoursofsleep]

"Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared." -Buddha

:D

[rednecktrucker1969]

the guy has a valid point, we should take care of our own families, and then our townsfolk and then the world.

[stratvic]

Can I choose the members of my family, friends, and associates?.. or should I be forced by others to take care of people based on arbitrary geographical lines

[rednecktrucker1969]

The root problem is corporations, they hire these folks for sub-standard wages, this forces out citizens from these jobs. The problem needs to be addressed from the top down, not the bottom up. It aint about race or caring for people. Its really about corp. greed. Besides there is a valid reason why we call them ILLEAGALS. Because they broke the law to get here in the first place.

[stratvic]

And if you try to stop them from hiring them here they hire them there. That is a bigger loss to this economy than letting people associate freely.

You would have to back up whether the law is moral to rely on it. We have a poor record of writing good laws. (prohibition, slavery, torture, the draft, gun laws, ....), and we have never been any good at it ....inquisition anyone.

[arequipa1]

your argument makes no sense

[stratvic]

I see renecktruckers pox ridden populist immigration law with not one but two principles. 1. Freedom of association and 2. freedom of movement.

[arequipa1]

how can those principles apply to those to whom the us constitition doesn't apply -- i.e. illegal immigrants

[stratvic]

Principles are not dependent on a constitution. Freedom of association and movement principles are held throughout the free world. When we make exceptions we have to question why such as when it comes to immigration. Its a bit like the constitution applied to everyone except women, or except black people. i.e a fundamentally flawed lack of universally applied logic, consistency and a position riddled with hippocracy.

[TheProgressistViewer]

@rednecktrucker1969 I think you guys can't afford to try to help the world tough, and have no obligation to do so

[sexlessparents]

el paso, is a cool place

[Torchmark]

With all due respect, that's not the point and is entirely irrelevant to this debate.

[sexlessparents]

I can say whatever I want to, this is america !!!! and with all due respect your mother is a whore

[Torchmark]

Of course you can write whatever you want and wherever you are. However there's no call for offending my relatives in what's supposed a debate focusing on Immigration.

[sexlessparents]

however there is no reason your mother is a cunt,

[Torchmark]

You don't agree with someone's opinion and instead of debating the whole issue, you start slagging off just because you're too lazy to think. Typical bottomless ignorance. By all means, keep on insulting. After all, you are living in America "the land of the free" ,aka the land of hypocrisy!

[FRTothus]

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Samuel Johnson (1709-1784) English author and social critic

[silversalvo]

"Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons."

 -Bertrand Russell

[Losertarian]

lol. Sometimes, but not always.

[Torchmark]

"Patriotism is also the virtue of the vicious"

[Losertarian]

once again sometimes, but not always.

[Torchmark]

and yet you do not specify the definition of "sometimes" in clear terms.

[Losertarian]

Sometimes I agree it is used as a tool for demagouges and frauds. Pat Bucahnann is an example of this. On the other side is someone like Alan Coombs.

[garvess]

Where does this obligation come from in the first place? I think at the bottom of his argument the obligation comes from his own mind.

[italianchappy]

your corporations have completely brainwashed you. They needed to make productivity sour and you've been working more for the same wage. Then they wanted to increase their profit through cheap wages without health care and promoted the "love the good illigal immigrants" politically correcteness. Then, they prospered through subprime mortgages given to people unable to pay back (see who are, statistically, those in forclosure). So you'll end up becoming like Brasil. Congratulations.

[whoo689]

I'm not against moderate restrictions on illegal aliens, but I am against extremes like deportation and open borders. Neither of those will work. We need to work within the law but also be sensible and fair.

I mean, with the whole employment issue, I don't see how it hurts anyone if I hired an illegal who doesn't commit crimes and is a hard worker. It's really no one else's business. I know that's tough to hear for some folks, but that's the case. No one has a right to a job.

[EdugeBDroN]

Then I suppose He should go back to Armenia then .Or manybe he thinks the immigration he is issued from is more valuable than others

[whoo689]

We should, of course, work with Central America to better its own economy, of course, but that can't be an excuse to just deport all the illegal aliens. If they've done nothing wrong and haven't committed a crime since they got here, and if they wanna be patriots, let them. And fuck this e-verify bullshit. I agree with the other poster below me: A businessmen should be able to hire whoever he wants, so long as he is of working age and is not a criminal. Guest worker programs are also a must.

[numbah1pinoy]

Its going on the kind of principle that we have a right to our own countries natural resources more than foreigners. We put in the work, so why shouldn't WE only benefit?

[stratvic]

Nationalism is morally equivalent to racism because it is discrimination against others based solely on the arbitrary attribute as to where someone is born.

[italianchappy]

>"Nationalism is morally equivalent to racism because it is discrimination against others based solely on the arbitrary attribute as to where someone is born."

It's what I say to the girls who don't let me bang them. You're racist because they discriminate me only because the genes given me by nature. That's mating selection. Discrimination because of genetic qualities. Bad and racist.

[stratvic]

In your analogy to immigration the government would prevent the girls from choosing to be the object of your affections due to race (look up the historical changes in the marriage laws) through force.

We don't force people to employ or be employed by someone else, it is based on voluntary association. We should not force people not to associate with each other either i.e. not to employ or not to be employed by others.

[italianchappy]

To my knowledge we and Aristopanes in the Ecclesiazusae are the only ones purporting the ban of the racist mating selection process.

However we can hope.

Politically correct governments all over the world have already began to enact copious anti-discrimination hiring policies (Norway and other krauts being the first as usual). In US banks were compelled to lend to certain minorities by the CRA. I feel the time is near for our revenge. Stop sexual selection discrimination now !!!!!!!

[eirefrance]

I disagree with your assessment on one point; racism, as its practiced in our country today, has nothing to do with genes. It has to do with a perception of genes, perhaps, but I think its really a perception of culture. And, more than a little of the anti-immigration position is a claim that their culture cannot be accepted into our culture as earlier immigrants' culture was.

[whoo689]

What we should do is naturalize the illegals who have been here for 5, 10, maybe 20 years, as long as they pay a fee and have no criminal background and want to be Americans, and take them out of the shadows. Obviously border security is a must to prevent further illegal immigration. We need to deal with the 12-20 million already in this country. But there are a lot of myths and slanders about illegals: they're "taking away" jobs, they use up all our entitlements, etc.

[whoo689]

We also of course have to deport any illegals who commit crimes, esp. violent ones.

But the thing that irritates me most about folks like Tom Tancredo (not comparing Krikorian to him, just using as an example) is that they make it seem like illegal aliens are evil folks who just wanna steal jobs, have lots of kids, and mooch off the system. It's not exactly the truth. Illegal aliens are good people, like us, but they're just not citizens. And they do pay taxes, like sales.

[eirefrance]

Thats what annoys me so much about the anti-immigration movement. They are so focused on abusing and demonizing people who just want a better opportunity for their family but never address the underlying causes; just build a fence and deport. Its dumb and inhumane.

[xkeltoix]

if I own a business, I should be able to hire anyone I want. Even if my business is in America, and I hire mexicans for whatever wage they sign up for.

fuck this nationalist shit.

[k166a]

Just not illegals.

You can't hire children right?

Same deal. You can't hire some people.

[xkeltoix]

child labor isnt necessarily bad, i had a job when i was 8. its no big deal. kids go around shoveling driveways and do movies, but you dont complain.

[Torchmark]

have you tried, or should i say, heard or read of child labor outside the gracious, glorious usa?

[xkeltoix]

yes, and theyre all lucky enough to have very inhumane government regulations.

If its up to the parent, then theres no complaints, especially if you have an open economy that will grow, like the USA's did. the USA at one time had real capitalism, and yes you go through a transitional period. Child labor in this country and other western ones wouldnt really be such a bad thing, because its not like they HAVE to be there.

[sexlessparents]

what the fuck are you about ?

I said i like el paso, and somebody tells me not to say, but i can say whatever i want, also your america hater, so fuck you and die, also right now i am in Vancouver YOU DUMBASS !!!

[xkeltoix]

i dont even know what you're talking about.

I dont hate america, but im not a nationalist. nationalism is stupid.

[sexlessparents]

yeah, and your mother is a cunt

[xkeltoix]

well she has one.

RABBLERABBLERABBLE

[italianchappy]

> and I hire mexicans for whatever wage they sign up for

it's not my business what you guys do in your country but I've to tell you that in this way America will become like Brasil. Importing Illigal cheap workers not able to have health care and living in slums for the benefit of few people. And it seems you're already on that path...

[xkeltoix]

in my perfect world, the illegals could just sign up for healthcare if they wanted it. i believe in a free market..

in my perfect world, people working here who dont live here wouldnt be treated like scum. Would it be so bad if many mexicans went to texas for work, maybe moved there or just went back after the shift was over? Nah. who cares?

[italianchappy]

> in my perfect world, the illegals could just sign up for healthcare if they wanted it.

Good. Hence in your perfect world they don't sign up for whatever wage the abundance of workers dictates. They sign up for a wage sufficient to pay your health care.... Otherwise no choice....

Hence we've to control the number of workers. Too many and you have a depression of salaries and a lot of people living without health care.... Only good wages let you join good health care

[xkeltoix]

No, in my perfect world theres free market healthcare provided to anyone at competitive rates.

No, more workers is good for everyone. more jobs means a better economy, more people earning money means theyre more likely to start their own business.

I dont think you know all to well what im talking about here

[eirefrance]

We don't live in your perfect world, though.  We live in a world where ethnic/nationalist identity is important to a lot of peoplel; a world of unequal access to education and advancement, crime, language barriers and exploitation; a world where who you know matters a lot more than what you know. In other words, the real world. You can't simply get rid of the laws and say "Have at it, hoss".

[italianchappy]

Right on erefrance, right on.

[xkeltoix]

all we need is a freer economy, and that would be essentially everything i just talked about.

[eirefrance]

You say that all we need is a freer economy. You'll excuse me if I don't take Milton Friedman's word for it, but rather look at what 30 years of economy freeing has wrought upon the average, working, American. I don't claim to be an economist or business owner, and don't have the understanding that either of those people would, but I can see the writing on the wall.

[Torchmark]

Well Said!

[lsnfoundation]

I don't think this is a matter of Patriotic. However, I do agree the economic struggle everyone is feeling with would not quite categorized in the Patriotic category so I agree we should rethink its category. Americans can not opposed immigration because it seems like it is America's goal which reminds me of the reason the country was independent therefore I agree that Americans are willing immigration with hope of becoming legal. Now, I hope that helped.

Bless you,

[FarFromEquilibrium]

yes it is very patriotic and far beyonf that it is just plain good sense to oppose programs that hurt members of your host country, than to support programs that screw your own group.

the only people at WSJ that oppose that are looking for cheap labor.

If someone is genuinely so concerned about Central Americans, and there is nothing wrong with that, they should support investment in the countries themselves than to want them to remained screwed in Cen Amer. but all come here instead.