John Piper - God loves you, more than you know

[lifeInAFallenWorld22]

maybe he does love us but can he come back and make everything right and bring peace.

[blessedwithoutmeasur]

God so loved the World , there it is, that is so real, he loves us , we are truly blessed

[petertimothycooper]

This is an unfortunate video. A great preacher, but poor exegesis of Bible passage make John Piper have to argue (with great passion I notice) that its bad to have turned to Christ in faith - he is arguing that God did this. What a shame that the love of God is denigrated by John Piper in this way. God loves us, as in the passage John 3:16 so much that he died for us. This fact and our response to it is to be amazed by God's love.

[MyKingUponZion]

Jesus Christ is REALITY! Everything else is FAKE.

[MyKingUponZion]

I know exactly how he feels. Thank you for your LOVE GOD! For you so loved the world you gave your only begotten son to die on the cross for our sins so we could know your love! Praise you God!

[MyKingUponZion]

Those who obey God and do his commandents are the ones the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus Christ to and the Love of God. Those who don't will never see God.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Mat. 5:8

Mat. 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

I am a living testimony of the power of Jesus Christ...he has revealed himself to me thru the power of the Holy Spirit! Praise God! I love you God!

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11

I beg to differ.

I don't NEED to do anything. I choose to because it doens't answer any questions. you're simply retreating.

You're the one who believes in imaginary mythological beings. You're making an ass out of YOURSELF. You're the one dodging the point. I'm bored with you, you sound stupid.

You're just a fool in MY eyes.

I feel so sorry for you.

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11

Clearly you don't know what the word BLIND means. You clearly don't have reading comprehentuion skills either.

I SEE just find. God is a MYTH, the BIBLE is MYTHOLOGY.

[lydmarol11]

I'll pray God will call you. Your science won't mean the same thing to you anymore. It will be MUCH GREATER!!!

Take care.

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11 Prayer is simply wishful thinking. Science works just fine w/o your MYTHOLOGY, thanks.

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11

You are a slave, bought and paid for. The wages of disobedience is death. Your life is the ransom. Your fee, was gullibility.

Evolution is suported by EVIDENCE.

Creationism is MYTHOLOGY.

you clearly know NOHTING about SCIENCE.

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11

GODS AUTHORITY IS ABSOLUTE: Totalitarian.

GODS IS ABOVE NATURE: Supernatural

GOD IS PERFECT: Utopian

GOD EXISTS: fantasy.

You don't know anything.

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11

No, you're only as smart as the EVIDENCE to support your claims is.

Stupid is as stupid beleives.

Yep knowledge is TENTATIVE and dependant on EVIDENCE.

SOMETHINGS we learn in school are wrong. EVERYTHING you learn in the Bible is wrong.

FAITH is GULLIBILITY.

RELIGION is SUPERSTITION.

You're in a CULT.

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11

I clearly care more than YOU do.

HOW do you stand somewhere when you die? EXPLAIN.

HOW do you KNOW there is a god? EXPLAIN.

You're using science EVERY DAY, fool. Go to howstuffworks(dot)com

In truth, the only thing in your life that ISN'T dependant on science is your belief in magical nonsence.

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11

SPIRITS don't exist. When you die you're done.

You're living in a mythological fantasy.

God is a myth. The Bible is SUPERSTITION.

Jesus is LONG since dead. You're being ridiculous.

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11

GODS AUTHORITY IS ABSOLUTE: Totalitarian.

GODS IS ABOVE NATURE: Supernatural

GOD IS PERFECT: Utopian

GOD EXISTS: fantasy.

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11

Then why preach? How meaningless.You think you're chosen by god!? how self-righteous! how arrogant!

Just like how you can't choose to believe in aliens. It's not up to you. You have to be abducted. how ridiculous!!

[vasiliosrigos]

to God goes all the glory ,The creator of all.

Thank you Jesus for loving me ,and I pray you find me worthy.

a humble slave

[EntinludeX]

@vasiliosrigos

How sad. A slave is all you are.

[Dejan2116]

Sorry, he said that GOD will judge all men by Christ Jesus***. You're worldview cannot even account for evidence in the first place, without God, evidence doesn't exist, can you tell me how evidence is verified? Is it by your own approval that it's correct? If yes, what is your ultimate authority again sir?

Is evidence just that which man approves?

It doesn't matter how you define supernatural, you can argue against false gods, so can I, but we cannot argue against Jesus.

[EntinludeX]

AGAIN, you are failing to address the simple fact that the "supernatural" is SYNONYMOUS with "magical. This is to define  ALL supernatural things, including your deity. I wonder why you avoid this topic.

Evidence is verified through testing and observation and is peer reviewed for accuracy. Don't you know ANYTHING about science!?

I'm not my own "ultimate authority", why would I be? What does that mean? Nothing is above criticism, not science, not evidence, not me, not Jesus. Why would it be?

[Dejan2116]

Supernatural is also synonomous with "transcendant" and "metaphysical" and "fabulous", why is that an argument lol?

Evidence is verified through testing and repeating? Oh, what do you assume even before you're able to do that? You assume the uniformity of nature, that things will continue to happen if they happend once, ie. scientific tests.

Thus, you're worldview cannot account for the uniformity of nature. You're worldview is foolishness, everything outside of Christ is not real.

[EntinludeX]

Explain:

How is not believing in supernatural magic foolish?

The term "uniformiity" is too vague. Be specific. What do mean? How is it I assume the universe is "uniform"? How is it uniform?

Explain "inside or outside" Christ?

You won't.You can't.

[Dejan2116]

I don't believe in magic.

Uniformity means to be always the same regardless of how many times you repeat it. Example. "How do I know the sun will rise tomorrow? Because the sun rose yesterday."

And Inside of Christ is the entire universe which is held up by him. But those who are saved by Him are inside of Him to the point of salvation, all things are sustained by him so technically all things are inside fo Christ. That outside of him is that which is meaningless, and not reality.

[EntinludeX]

The sun doesn't RISE. the earth revolves. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

Soyou propose that the universe is consistent, therefore supernatural magic. Well bravo you've explained all of physics. LOL.

So "in christ" means "held up by christ"? What metaphorical nonsensical doublespeak is that? Are you even capable of using specific terms?

[Dejan2116]

With the "rising", you know what I mean. No, etin, what you are doing is called a straw man argument because you are claiming that I believe in magic when I don't.

If the Universe was random in nature how can it be consistent and always the same? How do you account for that sir? No, since your worldview cannot answer the basic questions of reality it is deemed foolish of believing lol. And clearly you havent looked into the cud thing at all while you were a "pastor", any commentary can answer

[EntinludeX]

Perhaps you can explain to me how magic/miracles/and supernatural are different. I'm all ears. You can't, you won't because the terms are SYNONYMOUS.

The universe is not STATIC.

The universe is not ALWAYS consistant.

the universe is not ALWAYS the same.

Evidently you're totally ignorant of the law of entropy.

Evidently you're totally ignorant of Chaos theory

Evidently you're totally ignorant of Emergence theory.

You seem hopelessly out of date on your cosmology and physics.

[Dejan2116]

Metaphysical reality is that which is higher than the physical, this is supernatural. Kind of like the laws of logic. Sir do you believe in evolution? If yes, what an amazing miracle, much greater miracle than what I believe!

Where is the universe not consistent, please give me an answer? None of those theories do what you claim.

Look how you put your hope in theories rather than in the word of God? And you were a pastor? I don't need to know little theories, I need the knowledge of GOD.

[EntinludeX]

Evolution only discusses species diversity. It's not magic it's science. I don't believe in miracles, you do. You believe in an extragalactive magical overlord. Your sense of proportion is greatly off balance.

[Dejan2116]

Look, I'm not here to debate you or to refute your arguments as if I'm smarter than you. I am not doubting your intellect. What I am doubting is your denial of God and how foolish you are now in your thinking because you have forsaken him. How do you account for evidence sir? How does your worldview account for evidence? 'For even though they KNEW God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened" (Romans 1:21).

[EntinludeX]

What do you mean "how do I account for evidence?"

Naturally, I physically test it, verify it, and it produces results.

What else do you mean? How do I account for there being anything at all? Learn physics first.

How do YOU account for something supernatural/magical for which there is no physical evidence or reasoned logic? You can't, you simply have to believe it with total credulousness.

Oh, you rely on ONE single BOOK which you quote like a parrot....*sigh* Bravo sir. Your cracker, sir.

[Dejan2116]

You physically test it? But you aren't able to test it without first assuming the uniformity of nature?

How do you account for physics? Don't you see how foolish your mind is without Christ, so many holes in your logic. The fact is, only the God of Scripture accounts for all things and the reasoned logic that you cannot account for. If you didn't believe logic was universal, you wouldn't be speaking to me now trying to refute me. I'm saying that reality cannot be accounted for without CHRIST.

[EntinludeX]

Ah, I see your answer to everything is magic is responsible.

Instead you use ridiculous absolutist terminology like "universal" and "uniformity" which simply do not apply to anything in the cosmos because nothing within the universe is ABSOLUTELY CONSTANT, EVERYTHING CHANGES eventually, but since you don't know anything about science you don't know what you're talking about.

You're a lost cause.

Enjoy your magical superstition.

[Dejan2116]

How is logic universal if I'm just an ape like creature mutating over millions of years? Is logical thought physical? Can you touch logic, smell it, can you see it? I'm using this method of apologetics because this is the Biblical way to talk to an athiest. Tell him he cannot ACCOUNT for anything and his worldview is shown foolish. You base your whole life on the unchanging laws of the universe, yet u say they change. The universe doesn't change because GOD never changes and HE is its creator.

[EntinludeX]

@Dejan2116

Yes you can see logic. Get a CAT SCAN or an MRI.. We can see thoughts as you t think them in machines we made to read the brain. Seriously. Google it. on the INTERWEBS.

We can account for PLENTY, just not EVERYTHING. It's called SCIENCE and you're USING it. You can't account for ANYTHING.

Who said the laws of physics NEVER change? Do you know ANYTHING about Quantum Mechanics!? The universe DOES change. Constantly.

Deities are all mythology.

[EntinludeX]

@Dejan2116

No, you have it backwards.

Physics is a fact. Without physics you wouldn't be speaking. You're using science: it's called the internet.

You clearly don't know anything about physics.

There's no accounting FOR god or Christ.

God isn't a fact, god's an opinion.

Superstition. Fiction. Mythology.

[Dejan2116]

Entin, why is physics a universal, unchangingly fixed thing in a world, in your view, that is constantly changing/evolving. Explain. How can you be sure that physics will be the same tomorrow as it was yesterday in your worldview? Explain and justify this without the God of the Bible. Logic is not the same as thought; logical principles are the rules of reasoning; please tell me how these rules are universal and how you and I can argue based upon them if God doesn't exist and is not your Lord.

[EntinludeX]

@Dejan2116

Who said the universe was unchangingly fixed!? That's simply not true. You're WRONG.

I am REASONABLY sure the physical universe will remain the same, GENERALY, but I know it's changed SPECIFICALLY.

Explain all of nature: I don't know ANYTHING 100%, NOBODY DOES. We can explain SOME things not EVERY thing. Learn the difference.

Logic is man-made. Impossible without thought. you're moving goalposts.

Explain god. You can't. You explain NOTHING.

I am not a slave. I serve no Lord.

[Dejan2116]

Etin, you cannot account for why there are universal, immaterial, unchanging laws in a universe without my God. Logic is man made? Fine, I win. There, argument over. I just made up logical victory. If logic is man-made should yo accept this? Of course not. This is because you know your worldview is foolish. For instance, "Are you 100% sure that nobody knows anything 100% sure?" See how inconsistent your view of reality is? Jesus commands you to turn from your sin and bow before him as Lord.

[EntinludeX]

@Dejan2116

God doens't explain anything. God is man made.

Saying god explains anything is like saying "Fine, I win. There, argument over. I just made up logical victory."

For instance, "Are you 100% sure that god exists or knows anything 100% sure?" See how inconsistent your view of reality is?

You're a victim of your own fictional logic.

Religion is mythology.

Jesus is dead. Dead men command nothing.

[Dejan2116]

Etin,

You cannot explain reality without making reference to my God. This should really cause you to think. For if reality is what you think it is, shouldn't it comport with the "truth" of your worldview? How come reality only comports with my worldview, if my God doesn't exist?

Jesus rose from the dead becuase he has power over death, for he my Lord and your Lord. One day you will die, and the deception will be over and Jesus will judge your every thought; so repent and believe in Jesus.

[EntinludeX]

@Dejan2116

Of curse you can explain reality without making a reference to god. It's called science. The thing is we can explain SOME THINGS. We just can't can't explain EVERYTHING.

The difference is god explains NOTHING. How do Jesuses necromancy powers work? How do my thoughs AFTER I'm dead? Magic? Explain how, please. "Mysterious ways"? You don't now.This should really cause YOU to think. Why should I believe if you can't explain ANYTHING?

Don't only slaves have Lords or Masters?

Hmm...

[Dejan2116]

Don't you see, you live for evidence but you cannot account for it! What a foolish worldview! I know you use evidence(that you steal from my God to argue against my God) but the foolishness of your worldview is seen because you CANNOT account for such things.

I account for logic by saying that it is the process of God's mind that man borrows from to learn things. Evidence is that which GOD holds up and HE is the evidence for everything. Without him, the world is foolish, don't you see?

[EntinludeX]

Logic is accounted for by way of cognitive neurology. It's not metaphysics, it's SCIENCE.

Evolution is not a miracle, it's biology. It's SCIENCE.

None of those theories do what I claim? Please explain to me how they don't since you know SO much about science.

Again, why would I trust ANYTHING supernatural? I don't believe in magic.

Pssst: your computer is operating on computational theory, programming language theory, and a host of other computer science theories, so yes you need theories.

[Dejan2116]

Oh really? So this cognitive neurology that "evolved" over billions of years is suddenly universal and all people agree on it? Wow. you believe in greater miracles than I do.

Sir how do youa ccount for science? If your worldview cannot answer the basic questions of reality why should I believe you?

When your cat is pregnant, do you fret about the possibility that it might produce an elephant or do you trust the laws of science for a kitty litter?

God gave man the idea for the computer

[EntinludeX]

Who ever said cognative neurology is "Suddenly universal"??

What does that even mean? Neuroscience isn't a miracle or a universal constant, it's a physical and natural fact.. Stop making strawmen arguments.

What do you mean "accont for science"?

What yo you mean "basic questions of reality"?

Why would a cat make an elephant? Do you not know what a SPECIES is?

How did God inspire computers when you haven't proven the supernatural exists yet?

[Dejan2116]

I'm saying that you use science but cannot account for it, can't tell me where it comes from, where it's going or why it is the universal principle. You base your life on science but cannot account for it. This shows that you steal from my God to argue agaisnt my God.

Now do you get why Paul said that IN HIM we MOVE LIVE and have our being?(Acts 17).

Species is an example of the uniformity of nature, why is it like this sir? God exists, and you, as his creature, cannot escape him.

[EntinludeX]

Where does science come from? Science is totally accounted for, as the method by which we study the known universe.

There's no such thing as a "UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLE". What are you TALKING about?

No I don't steal from your god, you give your god undue credit. How can you account for the supernatural? Oh right, you can't, so you quote a single book like a parrot. Bravo. Your cracker, sir.

Species are NOT uniform. they adapt and change. Again you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

[Dejan2116]

I'm not claiming that species are uniform, I'm saying nature is uniform. A dog will never make a cat sir this is a fact. But how does your worldview of just the physical account for that? HOW? Now when you and I stop speaking to eachother, before you say anything in your mind, before you learn anything, please ask yourself : "Now I remember that Christian talking to me once, HOW DO I ACCOUNT FOR THIS? UMMM..."

[Dejan2116]

Since you cannot account for reality itself your worldview is defined as insane/ foolish. And no worldview can account for all things but the Biblical one in Christ. Hope you start seeing the truth.

[EntinludeX]

Ah so my worldview doens't claim to know EVERYTHIGN therefore I'm insane.

While your worldview insantly claims to know everything dispite that you can't explain any of it?

The Bible claims BATS are BIRDS and RABBITS chew their CUD. It doesn't even mention 50% of the known WORLD. You must be joking.

[EntinludeX]

My goodness, this guy is crazy. Love isn't at all supernatural, it's a product of our own minds. The emotion resides in our brans lymbic system, not our hearts. Nothing supernatural is responsible for anything natural, least of all emotions. Credit where credit is due.

[Dejan2116]

Really? Sou are a Materialist? I recommend aomin org for you, a good debate on your issue (Dan Barker, an athiest from the freedom of religion foundation VS. James White, a Christian apologist). The debate thesis: "Does the Triune God of Scripture Live?"

We as God's creatures stand in no position to judge whether or not our Creator exists using our own reason- for it would be foolishness to do so becuase God runs reason in the first place. Rational thought cannot exist without Jesus.

[EntinludeX]

I suppose that very much depends on your definition of what "materalism" is, as I believe it has several conotations.

I label myself as a scientific realist, naturalist, or pearlist. I belive in physical evidence and reasoned logic.

Your argument makes no sense.

You claim reason cannot be used to deduce the non-existance of a supernatural thing, but then say that it is by reason we know a supernatural thing exists, then proceed to give credit to the supernatural thing FOR reaoson itself.

[Dejan2116]

Let me tell it to you as it is. You dont honor God as he should be honored but foolishly think that you can come to a logical conclusion without relying on God for every bit of it. You assume that evidence is your final authority but you cannot even account for evidence or tell me where it comes from. You assume that there is a universal standard of logic to tell me that my argument doesn't make sense.

[EntinludeX]

What does the supernatural have anything to do with rational thought? The brain isn't magic, it operates quite within the limits of the natural. Whatever are you talking about?

Claiming that supernatural X is responsible for Y is a faulty premis to begin with as you have not esstablished the existance of supernatural X.

Your supposed answer merley reiterates your preconcieved conclusion, while explaining nothing. It is illogical and devoid of reason and evidence.

[Nechobank]

you have to understand the reason must come from something outside of itself, and it certainly cannot come from humans, we are "bound" by it. Christians believe that reason is grounded in God because God is reasonable, He has created morality and ethics based upon His holy and righteous nature. Reason is simply a concept, it cannot impose itself onto humans who are more than concept. humans have will, as does God. God made reason applicable to humans who He made in His image.

[EntinludeX]

Reason does come from outside itself, however it is a concept formulated by the brain. Again, I don't see how or why you're injecting a supernatural answer into what has a clear biological explanation. Reason is not grounded in anything supernatural, it's grounded in neurology. Just like emotions.

Since when are humans "bound" by reason? You make reason sound like an imposition or inconvenience. Seems to me it's the supernatural which is simply a concept.

[EntinludeX]

Again: Claiming that supernatural X is responsible for Y is a faulty premis to begin with as you have not established the existence of supernatural X.

Your supposed answer merely reiterates your preconceived conclusion, while explaining nothing. It is illogical and devoid of reason and evidence.

[Dejan2116]

In other words, you borrow from my God to argue against my God. The evidence for God is that nothing can be proved without him. Without him there is no evidence. Let me tell you about Jesus, he died under the wrath of God the Father in my place, on the cross, he bore my sins, he who was sinless died in my place and I died in HIM on that day. The only reason why I'm saved is bcuz he had me in mind when he died for me. If you come to faith in him, it will be because he had you on his mind too.

[EntinludeX]

Again you haven't established that I'm borrowing from anything.

Your claim seems to boil down to:"Supernatural X is so by virtue that supernatural X is so." That's circular reasoning, it's logical fallacy.

Also, I'm a former Pastor, I know of Jesus, thank you. That's not the issue here. You've simply changed the topic off of how it is you claim to know of anything supernatural and skipped straight to "miracles".

Faith means believing in things without evidence, why would I do that?

[Dejan2116]

Ofcourse I have established it, you can't even argue without proving my God, is that funny to you, or should you tremble because you were a false teacher and still are?

Every worldview ultimately has a system that is self-authenticating, so even thinking in your view is a fallacy.

Who made the rules of what a fallacy is sir? Who made evidence evidence? Do you really think evidence exists without the God of the Bible? What is evidence? Is it that which we percieve or is it from us? Sir?

[EntinludeX]

You established that something supernatural exists? I see you certainly have CLAIMED it exists, but when and how did you establish it as truth? Again, you're conveniently ignoring that "supernatural"  and "magic" are SYNONYMS.

Actually it neither makes me tremble or laugh because you're not making any sense. You speak of "every worldview" as if you've STUDIED every worldview. That would be quite a task indeed. No, rather methinks it is you who are a false teacher.

[Dejan2116]

I have't studied every worldview, but I do know that all of them have presuppositions, or ultimate/first starting points before they say anything. How do you know who is a false teacher? According to the word of God which endures forever, it is you who need to turn to God and repent from false teaching. I'm not claiming to be perfect, I'm a sinner saved by grace. Christianity is for the sick, not for the healthy. If you claim to be healthy without Christ, it will be your destruction.

[EntinludeX]

I'm sorry, Christianity hasn't any presuppositions? I think deities make rather fallacious presuppositions, actually.

Accordig to the Hindu Vedas Lord Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva endures forever. I could go into 13,000 religions, but you see my point. False teachers presuppose supernatural that magic exists, for starts.

No you're not claiming to be perfect, you're claiming acess to perfect knowledge(ie: the word), which is just as fallacious.

Option C: I could actually be healthy

[Dejan2116]

Entin, clearly you never knew the Bible and still do not understand anything about the Gospel of Christ. You think you know it, but you'd be surprised, try watching one of Paul Washer's sermons here on Youtube and test your knowledge.

Hindu polytheistic myths/ old wives fables is no comparison to Jesus. Sure they can say "shiva endures,etc" but does their worldview account for reality? Surely not. The Christian God does, and He is the only God that does.

Jesus is the access to knowledge.

[EntinludeX]

Again, I'm a former pastor who knows the KJV and NIV very well, but knowledge of a doctrine is not the point here, as there are thousands of other religious scriptures to be knowledable of as well, so don't change the topic.

Rather you rather flippantly dismiss the supernatiural mythical claims of polytheism and clinging to the supernatural mythical claims of theism.

Ironically all the while refusing to address the simple fact that the words "supernatural" and "magic" are SYNONYMS.

[Dejan2116]

U were never converted and know not God. Everything that you know, you know it not from your own reason, but from the knowledge of God that you supress. You know what I tell you is true, will you supress it any longer? Let me tell you the irony of your life, it will bring God glory either way. Whther you bless him or curse him, he gets the glory for his wrath that will come upon you will ultimately glorify him. Do you see how everything is about God? Did u learn his in Bible college?

[EntinludeX]

Oh please, don't patronize me. You honestly don't know the first thing about the path of my convictions, or the extent of my Christian schooling, so don't pretend you do.

The only thing ironic is that I've told you the truth about how the term 'supernatural' is SYNONYMOUS with 'magic' and you've simply chosen to ignore what words mean. Why do you supress the truth?

I neither bless or curse your deity.;I simply don't believe in magic as you do.

That's the point you seem to be missing.

[EntinludeX]

@lydmarol11

Well all you did was presented a wonderful false dichotomy.

I don't require faith for science. Science has evidence.

I also don't need to be 100% sure on ANYTHING, science doens't deal in 100% absolutes. So you don't seem to grasp how science works.

You don't seem to grasp the difference between REASONABLE certainty and ABSOLUTE certainty.

Are you talking about abiogenesis in bio-chemistry, or evolution in biology? And what does that have anything to do with your creation myth?

[EntinludeX]

So your argument, as it stands is still a weak plea to invisible authority by virtue of sciptural hearsay. No different than any other religion.

"THOSE magical claims are false, but THESE magical claims are true."

Which you can only suport with "THEIR magical book is wrong, but THIS magical book is true."

I hope you see the problem here in esstablishing credibility, but I have every reason to doubt you will...

[Dejan2116]

Entin, if you knew God, you would see how ridiculous your arguments are, but you don't know him and still think that since there are false gods therefore there is no true God. False gods are but dust, I don't care what you have against religion, men are weak and sinful. But you have NOTHING agaisnt Christ and you have no argument. I use the Bible as my ultimate authority, look at your ultimate authority= your own "reason", which by the way is held up by God, and if God takes it way?

[EntinludeX]

Thus far your tactic has been little more than "deny everything, admit nothing, make counter accusations."

Again if we are both being honest about the truth then we should both be able to freely admit thePOSSIBILITY that we are wrong. I do so admit.

Actually my ultimate authority is NOT my own reason, it would be physical evidence. So, don't mischaracterize me to make a point.

Again the fact that 'supernatural' is SYNONYMOUS with 'magic' is something you've simply chosen to ignore. Why?

[Dejan2116]

I will speak to you as a dying man speaking to a dying man, and push the antithesis Biblically. I see you watch Jesse Ventura. Sorry, I do not admit the "possiblity" that I am wrong because that is not how Paul preached in Acts 17 where he said that he will judge all men by Christ Jesus. I will not accept your plea of neutrality because you don't admit the possiblity that you are wrong either, nobody does. Neutrality is a nice thought, only nobody is able to do it. Who dictates evidence sir?

[EntinludeX]

Ah, believe or be destroyed? Well then that almost makes your proposition 'extortion' doesn't it?

Surely everything will be destroyed eventually. Surely you don't propose a magical means of avoiding the natural law of entropy do you?

[Dejan2116]

Yes, that's exactly what Jesus said, believe in me or die in your sins is pretty much it. Surely you can find one ancient figure who ever said that can you?

Natural law cannot be accounted for without the God of Scripture, the Bible, sir. How do you account for it?

[EntinludeX]

So then if you agree that Jesus pretty much offers extortion and just serves it up as "salvation", do you just not think extortion is a criminal act then?

I'm sorry, do you mean the same Bible which claims that "bats are birds" and that "rabbits chew their cudd like cows".

Natural law is accounted for through observation and testing, you know science. Not a magical book of folk-lore superstition.

Least of all one which proposes the petty extortion tactic of "love me, obey me or else"

[Phonyender]

if you know the characteristics of Y, then supernatural X is quite obviously there.

2X=Y

If you know Y=2, then X=1.

By knowing what is natural, we can identify the supernatural.

[EntinludeX]

Except that nature does not indicate anything supernatural. Nature offers natural characteristics. The supernatural is utterly unaccounted for.

Again you seem to be ignoring that the 'supernatural' is a SYNONYM for 'magic'. Seriously, grab a thesaurus.

So are you seriously trying to mathematically prove magic with simple algebra?

[Dejan2116]

Nature doesn't indicare supernatural? What nature are you looking at sir? I'm serious.

You cannot even account for logic, absolutes, etc and your telling me that supernatural is unaccounted for? Thinking itself is metaphysical, it isn't physical sir. No, magic doesn't exist, magic is called so beause it appears to be real but really isn't. POOF! Now you see it now u dont lol.

Supernatural and magic are not the same sir.

Athiesm is foolishness, the Lord Jesus is the only TRUTH.

[EntinludeX]

I look at science: you know, the study of nature.

What are you looking at that indicates the supernatural?

The weary old "complexity=design" canard?

Logic and thought are in no way metaphysical, they're neurological. Who in their right mind deals in absolutes?

Grab a thesaurus, sir. Supernatural and magic are SYNONYMS. Simply stating otherwise won't change what words mean or that the supernatural is totally unobserved. You seem to be in some hardcore denial.

The Emperor has no clothes.

[speaklife2people]

Amen! Thank God, not just in word but with your LIFE!

Thanks for posting.